DR RANDERA: Can I call Tshalo Moraba. Mr Moraba, good afternoon. Can you please introduce the person who is with you?

MR MORABA: This is Reverend Makena.

DR RANDERA: Can you please stand to take the oath, please. Joyce?

MR MORABA: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata, will you take over?

MR MANTHATA: Who is, who’s the pers...

MR MORABA: I’m sitting with Reverend Makena.

INTERPRETER: Could you excuse the interpreters. The mike is not on. Mr Manthata’s mike is not on. Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Could you briefly relate to us, when you were arrested and why you were arrested and tell us everything that happened?

MR MORABA: I was arrested in 1991. They were suspecting that I’m one of the people who had burnt down Mr Pop’s house. What had actually happened was that I was off-loading the beer truck in Mr Scheepers’s bottle store. There was a smoke. It was almost like a two kilometers away. That’s when we saw the smoke going up. We got on top of a big truck. And we looked further away where there was smoke and we could see that the burn, the house that was burnt was Mr Pops’ house and on the very same night, the police came and they were together with the soldiers. They came in a Hippo. They came to arrest us. We were forcefully taken away. They didn’t even explain anything. They just put all of us on top of the Hippo. It was me and my brother but now my brother is not here. He’s in town. But I could see, recognize other boers were there. It was a, it was Abe Middelkamp who, and Mr van Niekerk and Durandt.

They took us to a firm which is called Embarren. I don’t know what was known for. It wasn’t yet developed at that stage. And from there, there were Citi Golfs. They were private cars, these Citi Golfs. That’s where they covered our heads, like when they were hanging a person. The kind of things that they would put on top of the person that they hang, so that we would not see where we were being taken to. It was I and my brother, Baldwin and Mandaho. There were also other people who had been arrested but we were all separated into these Citi Golfs and they took us but through my cover, the sack that they put me, I could see a bit. It wasn’t, it was a bit visible. It wasn’t very dark. From there we were taken to some farms on that side but I don’t know the place but when I explained to my brother what kind of a farm, he knew who’s farm it was. That where we were taken to and then we were taken off the cars from the, there was something made of wood there. It was something like the kind of thing that will grip the hook, that will grip the sheeps and then they put me on top of that thing and they were still had this thing covering my head and I also heard a chain and they pulled up this chain, pulled it up, high up and they climbed up on a ladder and they came to beat me up on that ladder. Even at that stage they’d not explained to me why they were beating me up but they started beating me up and they said I must tell the truth but they wouldn’t even give me the chance to speak but they were beating me up, say I must speak the truth. And I said to them, I’ll speak the truth but I didn’t even know what truth I would speak. I just wanted them to let me go and I wanted to understand why they were beating me up and then they released the thing and said, speak and I said to them, please, tell me why you’re beating me up and why have you brought me up here? And they said, you know what you did last night. To them, to-night, I said, yes what did you do? They said, you burnt down Mr Pop’s house and I said, who were there and at that time when Mr Pop’s house was burnt, I was not even present during the burning of the house. I was off-loading beers. And that was the time, my uncle, the late Chipa had died and that’s why those people burnt down Mr Pop’s house and because they said Pops is the one who had killed my uncle Chipa but I was beaten up and they press me down, up until I fainted. I was beaten all over and when I came around and I got up, they said, speak the truth. And eventually I was forced to just give them the names of people I knew but I didn’t know if those people were involved in burning down the house. I just started speaking all the names I knew and I used, I told them the names of the police, of the policemen children. Thereafter, they released me and I was very powerless. I didn’t have strength. They took us and took us, I think it’s to Sanlam, I think that’s the police office there. From there we didn’t sleep. We were taken to Louis Trichardt at the parking and I think it was about four o’clock that time. When we arrived at the parking there were some taxis and there were also a lot of other people who had been arrested, like Pumzele Masiti, Baldwin Iglet and I cannot remember others but there were a lot of us there but they didn’t want me to get of the Citi Golf to be with other people. They kept me alone because they, while we were still at Louis, they discovered that those people had been arrested were the policemen children, so they ar, released them and they let them go.

From there they repeated the things again and they, then they said to me, you knew who’d burnt down the house and I knew I had not done anything. Even if they’d beat me up, I kept on telling them that whatever they’re forcing me to say, it will be lies because I could not force myself to say something I didn’t know. There was another boer there but I don’t know his name, I, but they were boers from Pietersberg and Louis Trichardt. They were all together but the only people I knew, were the ones, the three name I told, I knew so...... Then they came and asked me, Barend Sty, Strydom, they, if I knew him. I said, yes, I know Barend Strydom. They said, yes, he killed sixteen Kaffirs. Because I was also annoyed, I asked them if they knew .Mtetelele(?) and Zondele(?) They said they didn’t want to talk about nonsense. I said, to-day you will see. I asked them about the Rooi-nekkers and it was not the only ones. So, they got angry and took me away. There was a Captain and a they put me in front of a taxi and kicked me all over and from there, and they bought food and this time we’d not eaten but they bought the food and ate it themselves and the left-overs, they gave them to us but I refused to eat and my friends whom I was with, had been arrested with, they ate the, the left-overs but I was so angry, I couldn’t eat and I was angry because I’d been arrested, being innocent and being tortured.

And from there they realized that I was very cheeky. They took me to the Louis Trichardt police station. They first asked me questions. I don’t know who this person was with, it was a CID but it was a White person. He said to me I must make a statement. He wasn’t requesting me to told me a statement, he was ordering me to make a statement and he said, explain. So I explained the very same thing that I’d explained before and after, when I finished my story, they said, that’s shit and he folded. He said, now, tell me the true statement of how you burnt down the house. The main thing that they wanted was that I accept or acknowledge that I bunt the house even though I did not, so that they could find me guilty. That was the only thing that they wanted from me. From there they realized that they were failing so they tied me with irons and burnt me and they put another metal and hung it on top and they put electric wires around me, around my hands with a masking tape and they started shocking me with electricity and then I fainted. I did faint there when they were shocking me with electricity.

From there they took us to Pietersberg. The other people didn’t know what was happening to them. At that stage, I was very confused. I didn’t know what was happening. Things were very tough for me. Well, they took us to Pietersberg and others were dispersed and taken to other different places but I, I can’t remember the names of pl, places but I do know the place. I think I stayed there for about three days or a week. I wasn’t eating. Since they’d arrested I was not eating anything. I think they got scared about that and eventually they took me back to the trial and from there they started begging me and asking me what I wanted and they promised that they would buy anything that I requested and they said this government’s money. I must just request anything I wanted. I didn’t make any requests from them but they bought cigar and magew and other things and gave them to my brother, Baldwin. My brother was eating and then we went to a trial.

We came to the trial here in Messina. From there, there was Mr C.J. Bester who was the Prosecutor of the Magistrate, excuse me. He postponed the case, remanded the case and I requested dole for a free bail. I also wanted to press the charges against the people who were beating me up and he said to me he’ll call Incatha to come and discipline me. He said he’ll call Incatha with knopkierries to come and discipline me and he ss, talked quite a lot and some of the things he said, I cannot remember them. It was in that time then, the issues were, were actually exposed in the Sowetan newspapers. We did get the free bail through the lawyers and eventually I was discharged. Nothing went ahead of the case but I was very angry why they refused me to press charges against them because they abused my life wrongly. This is why I have come here to the Truth Commission so that I could relate this.

MR MANTHATA: Who is this Pops who’s house was burnt down and it was related to political issues?

MR MORABA: They, when teachers were dying they were blaming him for those deaths. That’s why his house was burnt down. My uncle Chipa too, was also suspected to be, it was suspected that my uncle was killed by this Pops.

MR MANTHATA: Are you telling us that these teachers who were killed were politically involved?

MR MORABA: No, I didn’t say that.

MR MANTHATA: I’m only asking.

MR MORABA: No, they were not politically involved. The community was concerned that the teachers were dying at the time, and also the student were concerned that who was going to teach them. I’m not the one who’s saying that. What I’m saying is, what was done and said by the community. But I myself, I’m not saying so.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. Can we settle down please.

MR MANTHATA: I actually want to understand here. Are you saying the teachers, students and the community were thinking that teachers were dying because of political, their involvement in politics?

MR MORABA: The community here in Messina is, is united. If there’s anything which causes pain in the community, they would get together, discuss it and try to fight that problem.

MR MANTHATA: This Pops who was a, a witchdoctor, how was his, his, his being a witchdoctor related to politics?

MR MORABA: I can’t explain that because I don’t know.

MR MANTHATA: At the time, were you a student?

MR MORABA: Yes, I was.

MR MANTHATA: Were you one of the leaders in, in the political organizations?

MR MORABA: No, I was not.

MR MANTHATA: How did they relate you to the burning of Pops’ house?

MR MORABA: Actually I used to be a victim of, of police, the police at the time. I thought there was one policeman who hated me an, at the time and, and my brother too, because everything which used to happened at the time, we had to be invol, to be taken and, and, it was, it didn’t happen many times that if, if something was happening we were not taken to the policeman. We were always, we would always be taken to the policeman even if we not involved. They will just create stories so that we get involved.

MR MANTHATA: Were you not members of any political organization at the time?

MR MORABA: I was a member of the ANC at the time. My brother Baldwin was a member of the PAC but that is not the reason. I never thought that was the reason why we should always be involved if there was anything wrong in, in Messina and again, my brother being a PAC, I cannot find the reason why we would always be taken away if there was something wrong. That’s why I’m thinking and I used to think that there was one policeman who used to hate us.

MR MANTHATA: I have another question. Where you not in the leadership of ANC at the time?

MR MORABA: No, I was not. I was an ordinary member.

MR MANTHATA: Is there any other reason that you can, it can tell or explain us which made the police to be after you?

MR MORABA: Before this incident there was one Mr Ramoba who was a CID who used to come to our house to come and fetch us. He would always take us as his customers.

MR MANTHATA: Was Ndo your lawyer and was he a lawyer to the ANC or he was your private lawyer?

MR MORABA: He was the Human Rights lawyer.

MR MANTHATA: How did he relate your incident to politics at the time?

MR MORABA: I could not meet my lawyer personally so I don’t really know. I think he met our seniors who were concerned about us and why I was arrested at the time.

MR MANTHATA: When I ask you these questions Moraba, it’s because we want to know and understand things which happened to people because of politics at the time. We are trying to understand why were these people doing these things to you. If we don’t find the relation of what happened to you, with politics, it becomes difficult for us to understand. What you’re saying to us is that when you were arrested they asked if you knew Barend Strydom. Is that Strydom?

MR MORABA: Yes, that’s Strydom.

MR MANTHATA: What did you understand at the time when they asked you about Barend Strydom?

MR MORABA: What I understood is that they were being racist. They were trying to show us that Black people were nothing. That’s what I understood at the time.

MR MANTHATA: Was it, was it how you answered them when they asked you whether you knew this person?

MR MORABA: Yes, that’s how I answered because it, it really disturbed me and I was angry. That’s why I told them because it was painful to be asked that.

MR MANTHATA: Did you know about Mteteledi?

MR MORABA: There was a rumour at the time that there’s, this person known as Mteteledi but I didn’t know him at the time. I heard that there were Umzondele’s and Mteteledi’s who were ANC members but I did not know them. I never met them before but I had the courage anyway to tell them that there were people who were strongly involved with the ANC and that I was personally involved as well.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you, I don’t have further questions.

DR ALLY: I just want to come back to this issue of Pops being accused of practicing witchcraft because this, this is not the first time that this issue comes up and particularly here in the Northern Province so I wonder if you could just assist us. How did you understand this, this, this question of witchcraft and, and accusations which were, which were made against people for practicing witchcraft? What’s your, your understanding of witchcraft?

MR MORABA: The whole thing of witchcraft, I don’t know what to say about it because this whole thing of burning people because I wasn’t there. I would not be able to answer this question on witchcraft because if I’d known at first how witchcraft is happening, maybe I would also have been involved in burning the house, but because I didn’t know why and what is witchcraft I did not go there to burn that house so I don’t know.

DR ALLY: The, the three teachers you speak about who you say died mysteriously. Do you have any idea how they died? What, what was the cause of their, of their deaths?

MR MORABA: No, I do not know but what was said was that Pops was responsible but I do not know what killed them but my uncle, what I understood about my uncle is that, that guy was after my uncle and everywhere where my uncle had been, he was also involved. That was a rumour but the way he died, he died from being knocked over, knocked down by a train but it, it was, it was a miracle the way he died. It was mysterious.

DR ALLY: But you say he died. He was knocked down by a train. So what was, it was an, an, an accident presumably. What was, what was mysterious or, or strange about the way that your, that your uncle, cause I sure you know about your uncle’s case. What was mysterious or strange about the circumstances of your uncle’s death?

MR MORABA: I know that my uncle was normal and a normal person cannot stop the car on the train tracks, on the train spoor and seeing that the train was coming. Nobody could do that if that person is normal. He knew, the normal person has have to stop that train, the train would smash them, crush them but that’s why I say it was a bit mysterious. That’s how I see it.

DR ALLY: Just to come back to, to the person who was commonly known as, as Pops. You say that he was a petrol attendant. What else do you know about, about this person. Did this person have any political involvement, other than this description of this person as a petrol attendant, what else do you know about him?

MR MORABA: I only knew him as a petrol attendant but he had a big house. He was a person who wasn’t suffering. That’s how I knew him. There’s nothing else I know about him.

DR ALLY: Okay.

DR RANDERA: Miss Seroke?

MISS SEROKE: Joseph, you are saying, your uncle was knocked down by a train on the train spoor.

MR MORABA: Yes.

MISS SEROKE: And what about these other teachers. How did they die?

MR MORABA: I do not know but one of them was reported to have vomited blood but I don’t know about others. The other one I said, he had vomited blood but I want to remind the Truth Commission that I did not say Pops is a witch. I said there was a rumour that Pops is a witch.

MISS SEROKE: In your statement you are saying Pops drop us the spot where the accident occurred and was he killed because he didn’t help or I did not understand well?

When you say your uncle was normal and he could not just stop on the train spoor, don’t you think his car stalls there and stuck there or that something stalled there?

MR MORABA: His car was from service.

MISS SEROKE: He’d just serviced his car?

MR MORABA: He’d had literally just fetched from the service and when he came back that’s when that accident happened and the car was still new and it didn’t have any problem.

MISS SEROKE: So the car just mysteriously got stuck there? And if a person sees that the car doesn’t go and the train is approaching wouldn’t you have opened the car and javoid the train coming to crash into his car?

MR NORABA: That is exactly the reason I say why it was mysterious because I also don’t understand.

DR RANDERA: Mr Moraba, I don’t want you to get the impression that all these other questions we’re asking you, takes away what actually happened to you. The torture that you suffered, electric shock treatment, punched, kicked and the detention you were, that you underwent. Can I just ask you, what do you do yourself?

MR MORABA: I am a welder at home. I do some welding works at home. Are you talking about jobs? I do welding at home and carpenting and part of mechanic. Those are the things I do.

DR RANDERA: The only other question I have for you is, in your statement you say that at the time of your arrest, it was not only the SAP, the South African Police who were there but also the South African Defence Force. Is that right?

MR MORABA: Yes, that is the truth.

DR RANDERA: Was that common in that time that the South African Police and the SADF actually operated together?

MR MORABA: Yes, it wasn’t the first time that if there were such kind of incidents, they would come together with the soldiers. It wasn’t the first time. Sometimes they used to come with the police and sometimes when they were arresting people, it would be a combined force of the police and the soldiers.

DR RANDERA: Besides your brother, Baldwin, who was arrested with you, there were other young people who were also arrested. Can you remember their names?

MR MORABA: Yes, I can still remember their names.

DR RANDERA: And were these all political activists in the, in the community?

MR MORABA: I don’t understand the question.

DR RANDERA: Were they all political activists in the community?

MR MORABA: Yes, they were except my father. He was not interested in politics.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much Mr Moraba for coming here to-day. We are going to listen to another person talking about this very incident before lunch. Thank you again.

MR MORABA: Thank you.