1 P MATHEBE 

CHAIRPERSON: ... because two or three of our witnesses have not turned up we have a bit of time. Unfortunately, the last witness Roelf Meyer, the Secretary-General of the National Party was scheduled to be here at four thirty. We cannot do very much about that. What I wanted to suggest and I am very sorry, I mean, we have to apologise, but the three witnesses did not pitch up. I wanted to suggest, perhaps, that we take a break now and resume, you are suggesting at three thirty.

MR MALAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That we resume at three thirty with the last two witnesses. We just want to welcome specially Dr Heino Valke from what use to be East Germany and his wife and their friend Mrs Reine. As you know Lebonarie they experienced freedom after East Germany when East Germany lost communist Government about the same time as when we were becoming free as well, but we welcome you very much and ask that you continue to pray for us as we move from Egypt through the wilderness into the promised land. I have one other notice there.

Maybe people are afraid thinking that if they come here they will be in trouble. Let us remind them that we have the South African Police services who give us security and they will help them to protect them and, again, if there are MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

2 P MATHEBE

problems about that, we have witness protection programmes that if people want to come here and maybe there are people who are threatening, they should tell us, then we will give them that protection. If you know that you want to do something within the Truth Commission, do not be afraid. Alright. Russell.

DR ALLY: Thank you Father. We now call our next witness, Chief Piet Mathebe.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

DR ALLY: It is on. Coming through?

INTERPRETER: No Sir, very softly.

DR ALLY: I do not know. It is technology. It does not agree with me.

INTERPRETER: That is okay.

DR ALLY: Chief Mathebe is going to present a statement looking at Moutse, the historical background, the political situation which led to the violence. He is also going to speak about the consequences of Moutse's incorporation and issues of reconciliation. So, if Chief Mathebe can please come forward and Commissioner Malan is going to assist him with the statement and with the oath. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I said the organisers were the people who gave us this platform. In fact the person who did that is one of our briefers, Fikila. So I must give praise to the right quarters. Fikila is jealous that you clapped hand for the wrong people. Can you clap hands for her.

MR MALAN: Will you please stand.

CHIEF PIET MATHEBE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: The gentleman with you, would you like to introduce him to us.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Yes. That is Mr Giyane. He is one of the

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

3 P MATHEBE

Committee leaders in our area. May I start?

MR MALAN: Chief Mathebe you did give us a statement which we have read, but we will prefer you taking us through your statement and at the end, I am sure we will have quite a number of questions which you could help us with. You are welcome to start. Thank you.

CHIEF MATHEBE: I thank you, Sir. As Mr Russell has said I am going to give just a background about Moutse in details. How did it come that Moutse existed and the incorporation into KwaNdebele and the deletion of that policy and so forth. Again, I am going to talk about the overview of the realities which happened at that time.

First, let me start by the geographical location of this place. Moutse is a stretch of land situated between Groblersdal and Bronkhorstspruit in the Mpumulanga province. The problems of Moutse are directly linked to the implementation of this policy of separate development by the Nationalist Party Government. The task of that Government policy was to separate people according to their ethnic affiliation and located them in pockets of land where they would be granted a measure of self-rule under the tutelage of the Central Government. These pockets of land were later to be called homelands.

Apartheid began to manifest itself in Moutse with the creation of what was called Regional Authority. That was a grouping of Chiefs in a particular area under one authority. This was called Regional Authority. These groups were later to be grouped into what has to be called Territorial Authority. The predecessor to the homelands. With that institution of the tribal differences through the various imaginations of apartheid policies of Government, the

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

4 P MATHEBE

KwaNdebele group was accorded their own Regional Authority. CHAIRPERSON: Do not listen to it.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: You are listening to your translation. Just speak.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Alright. The idea was that now they must develop on their own as a distinct group separate from the (inaudible) Sotho. As Moutse was Northern Sotho and Ndbele was in the same area. Then the Lebowa Territorial Authority was created in 1962 and in terms of Government notice creating it the regional authority of Moutse were incorporated into the territory of Lebowa. From then henceforth Moutse became part of Lebowa homeland and all development and cultural (inaudible) became linked to the Lebowa.

In the meantime a vigorous programme was in place for the creation of a distinct Ndebele homeland. Further attempts in that regard were to have that Ndebele homeland obtain independence from South Africa. The implications were that they had to have territories and the direction of expansion was Moutse itself. Thus in 1980 Moutse was excised from Lebowa by Proclamation R2(10) of the 29th of October 1980 and put under Central Government control.

Quoting from Government sources the media reported that the area was being excised from Lebowa to be administered by Central Government with a view to incorporating it into KwaNdebele homeland. By various means people of Moutse protested against this decision to no avail. The moves were protested against formally and informally. On the 29th of November 1979 a meeting was held at Aquaville near Groblersdal. The then Deputy-Minister, Mr J J van Zyl, was

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

5 P MATHEBE

told in no uncertain terms that people in Moutse do not want to be moved or have their territory into KwaNdebele homeland. In spite of that protestation he proceeded to do so. Subsequent to that a number of meetings were held where on our part we told Government we were not interested in their homeland schemes. It was very clear that the Government was bent on proceeding with its homeland plans. While the Government was saying that the arm was to consolidate homelands territories, it was obvious that the idea was to get territory for people of the Ndebele tribe. Thus, in 1984 there came a proposal by the Central Government that Moutse people be compensated with land in Sevenstad and Emmerpan. That is a place in the Ziebiediele district in Northern Province.

The area was rejected by the Moutse people as it would represent no compensation at all. By then the situation was becoming tense. It was very clear that tribal animosities had set between the Ndebeles and Northern Sothos. Attitude on the part of the police, expectation for the worse, was trust in the air. School children were highly agitated with the effect that education was suffering. In the meantime, Government had begun building schools and toilets at Sevenstad and Emmerpan in anticipation of the arrival from Moutse.

On the 31st of December 1985 Minister Chris Heunis, by proclamation R227 declared Moutse incorporated into KwaNdebele. Same night a well organised, orchestrated force of vigilante groups invaded three areas in Moutse. That is Motete, Kovokane and Walkraal. Scores of Moutse people were subjected to severe beatings and scores of others including leading persons in the community abducted and

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

6 P MATHEBE

taken to a community hall in Siyabuswa where they were made to undress, subjected to beatings, torture and made to run on a surface made slippery with soap and water. After the beating these people were taken back and dumped anywhere. Not where they have abducted them. It turned out later that the then Chief Minister of KwaNdebele, Mr S S Skosana, and his interior Minister, Mr Ntolie, were leading the beatings.

A further regulation was that even the KwaNdebele police were present and provided security and escort for the vigilante group. The invasion of that night set the trend for the violence that was to erupt and the massive acts of oppression and suppression that were to be meted on the people of Moutse by both Central Government police, on the one hand, and the KwaNdebele police and their vigilante comrades, Imbokhoto, on the other hand. Then on the first of January 1986 another invasion was launched from KwaNdebele. This took place in broad daylight and unmistakably to the knowledge of the police. Their task was directed at Kwarrielaagte. That is where Chief Mathebe is staying and at Krobokanie and Motete again and at some other areas in Moutse West. Scores of people, also, were killed in that attack and counter attack. All the police did was to collect corpses and no further action.

I will say shortly again give other incidences which happened then I will try to generalise them. Firstly is the incident which happened at Gobokwane on the 20th of December 1985 where Mr Mathebe spoke about. On the 21st of December 1985 there was a general meeting at Chief Mathebe's kraal where Chief Mathebe addressed his subjects. The police came, KwaNdebele police came together with the Central Government police forces and dispersed the crowd.

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

7 P MATHEBE

There was a shop at Ntwanye which was owned by Maliefatle Poele. The Hippo came there and then destroyed that building. The main objective of destroying that Poele's building, there was a graffiti written on the shop which was written "Viva ANC, Viva MK". It was surprising as whether those would be a reason for destroying Poele's shop.

On the 10th of January 1986 Mr Godfrey Mathebe was detained. After that his house was bombed. Two days later after the bombing of that house the police came again at Ntwanye and arrested Chief Mathebe. Not me. At that time it was Gibson Tloko Mathebe. I was still on the youth organisation. I was still a young person.

There was again some attacks which happened around three o' clock in morning mooted by Imbokhoto together with the police around Ntwanye Village and in Moutse West. Moutse West was at Keerom and Ryvroeg where they looked for any young person and arrested them. Then they left only the old aged men. If you are a young man you were arrested. Many of them went to Peston Police Station during the State of Emergency and some of them we do not know even where they are now because of people who were dispersed, others ran away, others went into exile. It destroyed the Moutse community.

On the 10th of April 1986 Mr Jeremy Masonto who was staying at Ellesduren was attacked by Imbokhoto people and was shot with three bullets, but he survived, he was never killed, because he was against independence and he did not want to Moutse to be incorporated into KwaNdebele.

From the foregoing it is clear that the apartheid state was bent on using vigilante groups, "kits konstabels" to subdue resistance to independence. Even through human

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

8 P MATHEBE

rights violations. Therefore the charge that the apartheid system of Government is a crime against humanity. The events at Moutse bear eloquent testimony to that charge.

I want to explain something which I believe other people did not explain it well that attacks which were mooted at Moutse were not Ndebeles attacking Moutse. It was Imbokhoto attacking. Let me say people were not putting it explicitly, it was a certain political organisation. It was not all Ndebele people who were members of this Imbokhoto. It was certain people who agreed on the policies of incorporation. Other poor people did not know. They were taken and they were painted on their faces so that they should go and attack the Moutse people to be incorporated. I wanted you to understand that well. That it was not a fight between the Northern Sothos and the Ndebeles. It was a certain group which were fighting against the Moutse people. I thank you.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much. I am sure you would not mind being available to us for some time. I am sure most of us will have some questions to you. May I start off with the last statement that you made that the conflict was not between the Ndebele and Northern Sotho, but that it was the Imbokhoto that attacked the Northern Sothos in Moutse. Is that statement not, perhaps, I am asking you, a little simplistic to the extent that they did experience some conflict at that level. Are we totally excluding also the origin and the cultural origin of Imbokhoto when we say that? Could I rephrase the question.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Do not make it long.

MR MALAN: The message. That is what I now want to do. I am sure I made it too long. The message I got from you was

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

9 P MATHEBE

this was only political and it was only pro or anti-incorporation independence. Are you sure that is the only frame and that it was Imbokhoto on the one side and the rest on the other side.

CHIEF MATHEBE: I will try to answer your question if I understood you well. I will answer the question. For us to say it was not a fight between the Northern Sothos and the Ndebeles and to say it was a fight between the Ndebeles and the Moutse people, it is because even among the Ndebele people there were those Ndebeles who were opposed to independence, who were against incorporation of Moutse. That is why I would say not all Ndebeles were fighting the Ndebele people. Even within KwaNdebele homeland, some were resisting the independence itself.

MR MALAN: Thank you. The statement that you made according to the statement was presented to Mr Derek Nielsen. Now some of the content is history which, surely, you as a relatively young man would not have experienced first-hand. In other words it represents some research or oral history. Is that correct?

CHIEF MATHEBE: I believe that next to me, an old man is sitting next to me. Some of the old things, we got them from this old man. That is why I am bringing him along so that if I have a problem, he will be able to help me.

MR MALAN: Thank you. We will certainly consider that when we get to the older era. Can you tell me at what stage can you first-hand recall, from your experience, the conflict? Which years more or less or which incidence or which phases?

CHIEF MATHEBE: Let me say when they began to remove Moutse to annex it to KwaNdebele. That is the act which I saw it myself. I was there, even the meetings which were held, I

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

10 P MATHEBE

was there. Even those attacks by Imbokhoto, I was there myself.

MR MALAN: So are you talking, when you say the attacks of the Imbokhoto you were there yourself. You were here this morning when Mr, what was his name, Simon Mahlangu, is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Kedu.

MR MALAN: Kedu Simon Mahlangu gave evidence. Do you recall that he referred to an attack on Imbokhoto people prior to the Siyabuswa incident?

CHIEF MATHEBE: If you are careful, if he was testifying, I was not there, but I believe that what he said was not true.

MR MALAN: You believe it is not true.

CHIEF MATHEBE: I do not believe it is not true, I know it is not true. It is a naked lie. He himself, knew that they were responsible to attack first the people of Moutse.

MR MALAN: We may have to get him back because he referred to some killings four days before the incident and I am sure if it is lie, it will show itself up. If it is not, we may not be able to find the bodies, but we may find the records. We will have to check on that.

In your statement the inference that you make is that when Mr Heunis, I think, announced the incorporation. No, no sorry. You say that, where was that, somewhere you say on the same night, yes. After Mr Heunis' proclamation R227, say that same night vigilante groups moved in. Are you saying that was an organised thing, co-ordinated with Heunis' announcement?

CHIEF MATHEBE: You may know that the Central Government was forcing this incorporation. This shows that before Chris Heunis made that announcement he did connive with the KwaNdebele Government that on that day I am going to

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

11 P MATHEBE

announce this and they themselves knowing that we the Moutse people are against that. They would anticipate that there will be a resistance therefore they formed themselves, they mobilised themselves so that they should harass these people that they have power so that we should not resist the incorporation.

MR MALAN: Thank you. The incident at the Siyabuswa Community Hall where these youngsters were beaten and where you say here Skosana and Piet Ntolie were leading the beatings. The question in my mind which I want some expansion on. Maybe you can help us is whether that style of beating had any semblance in the Royal tradition or Royal kraal tradition or other tradition? Was this something that was more or less known happened before?

CHIEF MATHEBE: In our culture, in African culture if a person is beaten, he is beaten if he has been taken to the Royal court where he is prosecuted and be given to given his own side of the story. If he is found guilty it is then that he is beaten. Not old men were beaten. Only young people were beaten and firstly you ask themselves that if they took this old man in Siyabuswa Hall and making this old man to undress. What does it show in the mind of a person? What did they do. Just because they denied to be incorporated.

MR MALAN: Just a further question. You say also that that occasion, you statement is, a further revelation, was that even that the KwaNdebele police were present and provided security and escort for the vigilante. Are those the people at the beating that you are talking about or the people going in that night?

CHIEF MATHEBE: This old man is disturbing by keep on saying MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

12 P MATHEBE

uhm, so you will pardon me. That is so. When Imbokhoto was attacking the Hippos would come first. They would confuse people. Then when people were confused and people are in the houses then Imbokhoto would come with pick handles because you have seen the guns of these police and we are now confused from that they will stay at the periphery of the situation. Imbokhoto continued to do their atrocities.

MR MALAN: So in your mind you have no doubt that was a collating between Imbokhoto and the KwaNdebele police? Collusion, they were one and the same team? You have no doubt in your mind about that?

CHIEF MATHEBE: To show that I have no doubt. In one of the incidents where they went house to house at four o' clock, early in the morning at Ntwanye, I myself, I was arrested that night and people who took me were Imbokhoto people. Only to find that when we were assembled at the ground, we were taken to police cars. We were taken by Imbokhoto people from our houses. That is a good example which shows that these people were conniving in their acts.

MR MALAN: May I take you a little further back in history and, maybe as you say, the old man may respond. This relates to the incorporation and the exchange of land Mkwansalesloot. Our research showed that a lot of people, indeed, did move and did move voluntarily because they did not want to stay under the authority of the KwaNdebele Government. Can you confirm that or give a perspective on that?

CHIEF MATHEBE: ... his own accord. This Government, this Central Government after finding out that people have defeated, the Moutse people have defeated them and the Imbokhoto has failed because of our resistance. Then they

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

13 P MATHEBE

used money and truly say, this thing we call a stomach. If it is empty, it makes other people feel to think. There were people who thought that they will take that money which the Government was promising them. They would say they would pay this amount for your house. Then the person would see that somebody has left and they have given him

R80 000.00. Then he build a muddy house. Then he would say if I may go my house is bigger, they would give me

R120 000.00. From there I would build a house by R20 000.00 and the other R100 000.00 I would put it in my pocket. That is why other people said we should move.

MR MALAN: So they moved because of the cash incentive, of remuneration?

CHIEF MATHEBE: They were attracted by that financial incentives. If they were not attracted by that they would not just leave and then Hippos would come and collect them. They knew that the Moutse people were united against incorporation and we would be surprised if they wanted to leave. Just because of being attracted by financial incentives, then they were loaded in the Hippos and they were taken to Emmerpan. If you look at that Sanieskloof, there were no people, the big shopping centres were built, beautiful cars were bought and people are now back in this area because that shows that they were attracted by the finance. They did not want that place, it is because of hunger.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not a political party rally.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chief. I do not think I, at this moment in time, have further questions. Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate it.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Yes.

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

14 P MATHEBE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any, Russell.

DR ALLY: Chief, I want to come back to this issue of policy and just get your thinking on some of these issues. You said that Moutse was initially part of Lebowa and then it was excised, taken away and put under Central Government to control with the intention of incorporating it into Moutse. Now, was the issue incorporation or was the issue homeland policy and independence? I ask that because while Moutse was part of Lebowa, which we know was a homeland and later took independence, what was the attitude with regard to that issue of Moutse being part of Lebowa?

CHIEF MATHEBE: If you look carefully you would see for Moutse to be taken out of Lebowa to be taken to Central, it is a combination that during that time that in the general South Africa the political activities and the political thinking was mushrooming. We are involved now with the national liberation and trying to help the old man that the homeland system was wrong because they were saying we will rather go back to Lebowa because we would say the two homelands are the same because our objective is we do not want to be under any homeland. We want to be part of Central.

DR ALLY: So you are saying the issue was both incorporation and the homeland policy. It was not just the fact that Moutse was going to be incorporated in KwaNdebele which led to resistance? It was the whole policy of homelands itself?

CHIEF MATHEBE: That is the general policy. The KwaNdebele issue was the major issue because if you are in a fight you use the other issue as a mobilising factor. The incorporation issue was the mobilising factor which we used and we were politicising the old man by this incorporation

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

15 P MATHEBE

issue.

DR ALLY: I want to come back to this issue of ethnicity and ethnic politics because I think it is important. One of the jobs that we as the Commission have is at the end, when we write a report, the Act says we must try and give as complete a picture as possible of the conflict of the past and the perspectives and the motives. Now, you did say that the issue was not a simple issue of a conflict between two ethnic groups, between Northern Sotho and Ndebele, but do you see the issue of ethnicity as actually playing a part and, if so, what part do you see it as having played in the conflict?

CHIEF MATHEBE: Well, people all them do not understand and you do not understand the same. There are those who take time to understand some issues. If you were listening to other old men who were talking you would hear them saying Ndebeles, but it shows that because this attack and this Imbokhoto group was coming from KwaNdebele there were generals by saying it is Ndebele. So in the mind of a person who does not have the whole picture, he will make it an ethnic conflict and in the true sense it is not. It is the Moutse people and the KwaNdebele Government and the Imbokhoto. In an ordinary language people said we were fighting against the Ndebele people.

DR ALLY: But with respect Chief, when the issue of Moutse's incorporation was opposed in court, it was actually taken to court and, I am sure, you are aware and knowledgable about that, the issue of ethnicity was used, not so, to challenge Moutse's incorporation into KwaNdebele?

CHIEF MATHEBE: If you may remember well that at that time young people were on their way to politicise with the old

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

16 P MATHEBE

people and because the old people have started this by being against being annexed to KwaNdebele we said we should not go to KwaNdebele, we want to go to Lebowa, but because this old men have planned this incorporation, it was framed in that way so that even in court they used that fact of saying we are the Sothos, we will not go to court because we warned that we were not able to go back to Lebowa because we said we do not want any homeland, we want to be under the Central Government. That was the only chant at the time, but we did understand the trend.

DR ALLY: So, you are saying it was a tactic which you were forced to use because the court did in the end decide on the question of ethnicity? It was part of the justification for homelands policies was that it would be ethnic groups and the issue of Moutse being made up mainly of Pedi, of Norther Sotho, the court actually said that that incorporation was not legal. So you are saying that that was more a tactic than a belief in ethnic issues?

CHIEF MATHEBE: It is not necessarily a tactic in that way. I tried to explain that originally among the old people they were looking at that ethnicity issue, but before even the court ruling we were able to show them the importance of this. The questions of the homelands is we were saying KwaNdebele and Lebowa are just the same. They are just the same as saying I do not want to go there and want to go there, but all of those people are one people. It was a tactic on the other side, on the other perspective, but on the other perspective the old people had their own idea. We, the young people, had to understand that. We left it that way that even if they would argue in court about the ethnicity we will show them the real issue and they did

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

17 P MATHEBE

understand us.

DR ALLY: From your understanding, why was the KwaNdebele Government especially people like S S Skosana, Ntolie and later Majozie, why were they so determined that Moutse should be incorporated into KwaNdebele? What was behind that determination to have Moutse?

CHIEF MATHEBE: It is because they wanted to be given independence and in that way if they get that independence they would have a larger land and they were saying Moutse, is not bigger than Moutse. They would have a sizable power because of the large land they will be given and they had knowledge that there are minerals in KwaNdebele. Other people did examine that in our land there is some minerals, so they were interested in those again.

DR ALLY: And from today, the way you see the situation today, how do you see the relationship between Moutse and what was then KwaNdebele? How do you see the relationships now?

CHIEF MATHEBE: There is a good understanding between the Moutse people and the KwaNdebele people because even now all the meetings we have we are in one region. You name them ANC Women's League, Youth League, we have only one area, we call it Western Region. That shows that we are living peacefully. There is only one thing which is left among other old people who still have the vestiges of the past and there are very few. We are in the process of trying to make amends. I talked to Chief Mayisha that we wanted to plan so that we are able to call Moutse residents and KwaNdebele residents to bring them together into a Unity Festival. Generally people live peacefully and they live together and they support each other. Even in political organisations we MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

18 P MATHEBE

are in one area and we have no problems. We call that the Western Region which is formed by KwaNdebele and Moutse. That shows that there is a good relationship between the two areas.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much Chief Mathebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yasmin.

MS SOOKA: Chief, this morning we heard about from one of the witnesses that Imbokhoto actually started with many of the comrades belonging to Imbokhoto. Now, I wonder if you could give us your perspective on what actually led to Imbokhoto getting involved in the violence, the role that the different security structures played in the violence in this area and then finally how do you see members of Imbokhoto still living in the community becoming integrated in the communities because at the end of the day, we still have to live with each other and there still seems to be an enormous amount of tension which exists between different groupings and Imbokhoto?

CHIEF MATHEBE: For how Imbokhoto started I would not explain it as being started by Imbokhoto Government. We only started to know when they started to attack Moutse areas. For Imbokhoto to come back and live peacefully with the Moutse and KwaNdebele residents, that is not going to be a problem. We are saying we and the KwaNdebele people we are in one region in organisational structures. Even at Verina where Imbokhoto sought refuge, ANC has a branch there. I would say at a conference the year before last we held that at Verina. So that area, Verina is called Imbokhoto Enclave. That shows that we welcome them, that they are our people. At that time they were used, but we have them in our meetings. Therefore we will not have a

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

19 P MATHEBE

problem of making Imbokhoto integrated in the various communities. In all the structures we have them, we meet with them.

Not all of them would be able to be in the ANC because even the Sindunwa Party is still there and maybe it is just signs of bitterness, but I do not believe that would be a problem because we have civic organisations and ANC structures at that Imbokhoto Enclave.

MS SOOKA: Your perspective on the role of the police and the army in the violence that took place in this area?

CHIEF MATHEBE: I tried to explain that in short that the police and the soldiers had a greater part with they played during the violence at that time. The meeting which I spoke which was called by Gosie Mathebe, they through teargas. It was the police and the soldiers together. After that when the people dispersed at different areas they began to shoot with lead bullets where a 14 year old child Mpunageng was killed and he was shot running. He was not even at that tribal kraal. He was just running. If there is confusion, if you run away you would not know where you are going. He was shot running to the mountain.

That is what I said again that when Imbokhoto would take us from our houses, surprisingly we would be taken to the police vans. We were taken by Imbokhoto at the houses. That shows the relationship between Imbokhoto and the police and the soldiers.

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: You tell us that people were beaten and harassed by Imbokhoto. Were you harassed, were you tortured in the hands of Imbokhoto? Can you explain to us?

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

20 P MATHEBE

CHIEF MATHEBE: Yes, during that time when I said they took us at night. We were brought at this Dennilton Police Station. That is where we were beaten. I survived because I gave them a wrong name by saying I am Simangie Mathebe and they were looking for Piet Mathebe. During the day we were released. After we were released one of them told them that Piet was there and during that day immediately they rushed to fetch me at home. At that time they arrived, when they arrived at home they assaulted my mother asking her where are they because I used the wrong name by Simangie Mathebe. That was my nickname when I was young and I am asking that you should not use that name.

MS SEROKE: You told us that the police and the soldiers were having a good relationship with Imbokhoto. Who was financing Imbokhoto to exist, if you think, if you just think?

CHIEF MATHEBE: That question answers itself because the Chief Minister of KwaNdebele then and the Minister of Interior Makawe Ntolie were leading figures in KwaNdebele which means they were using Government funds to fund Imbokhoto. You would not go to town to get the answer for that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Chief Mathebe, as we are trying to understand perspectives, you have quite eloquently explained to us the arguments against incorporation into KwaNdebele and you also talked about relationships with Lebowa, but you are saying people chose to stay with Central Government. I just want to understand why people chose to stay with Central Government instead of Lebowa or KwaNdebele?

CHIEF MATHEBE: I tried to show earlier that at that time

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

21 P MATHEBE

when they removed Moutse from Lebowa to Central at KwaNdebele it was during that time, it was in the 1980s and you know that at that time, the state of politics at that time. We were the youth, we were conscious and we learnt that the homeland Governments were mickey mouse. We wanted to be part of the entire South Africa. It was then that we started to educate the old people that these things of saying you do not want to be in Lebowa, you do not want to be in Lebowa. These are mickey mouse Governments. We want to be at Central to fight for liberation whilst we are still in the Central Government.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Russell.

DR ALLY: Chief Mathebe, earlier you heard Ephraim Mogale speaking about the ANC and the role of MK and underground structures. In the resistance of Moutse could you comment on that? Do you know of any involvement of ANC or underground structures in that struggle or was it just the youth and the UDF?

CHIEF MATHEBE: The involvement of MK, I would not know, because I was not there then. I joined MK later. What happened before in our area, in Moutse, I would not know. I would be telling a lie.

DR ALLY: Sorry, you said you joined MK later.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Yes.

DR ALLY: What period are you speaking about? When are you speaking about when you say you joined MK later.

CHIEF MATHEBE: 1987 Sir.

DR ALLY: And after that period, 1987, what role did the underground structure of the ANC play? Could you perhaps tell us a little bit about that, about after 1987, if you

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

22 P MATHEBE

are prepared to?

CHIEF MATHEBE: I will be telling you a lie because I joined ANC, MK then I went into exile. When I came back I was arrested in Johannesburg even before I arrived at Moutse. So to know the role of the MK then in Moutse I would not know.

DR ALLY: Thank you. The reason that I asked that was because I think it is on Wednesday, we actually have a statement, on Thursday I think, from the family of the Fourie. I am sure you know the incident of the policeman Fourie and his wife and in the statement there these allegations, but so I just wondered if you could enlighten us about some of the things that were happening during that period, but if you say you cannot then we accept that.

CHIEF MATHEBE: I would not have the truth about the Fourie incident. I was just a member of MK, but I did not play a role there.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: My interest will be in the process of bringing reconciliation between the two groups and realising that there are these two strong schools of thought. Namely that of the ANC youth, you know, the Kadai, you know, the idea of democratic leadership and that of the traditional leadership which, I think, as you have said already, might still be responsible for the lack of understanding of the masses who keep referring to Mathebele and so on about, you know, the real, what the real problem was. Now, I want to find out how do you marry the two. That is the democratic, you know, thinking in terms of running communities and the traditional thinking of running the communities.

CHIEF MATHEBE: To have democratically elected leaders and MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

23 P MATHEBE

the traditional leaders they have no conflict at all. Let me put it this way. As I talk we have democratically elected leaders and they traditional leaders and all of them are working together. Those who were elected are looking for developments and other issues. The traditional leaders are looking at the traditional issues, but they are able to consult each other when they have this plan or these objectives, they come to the other group therefore they advise each other. Even the other group which has a problem they go to the other group there, they talk to each other. There will be no way where there will be a conflict of interests. They are working together, they are able to help each other. I do not see any problem of reconciliation of the two schools of thought.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you. That gives us hope. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand.

MR MALAN: May I just get back to the role of the police in this conflict on New Year's Eve, New Year's Day 1986. In your statement and evidence you said that they were providing the security and moving in and I asked you for the question as to their mutual involvement, their mutual organised effort, but you also say in your statement that the police did not get involved. You say scores of people were killed in the attack and counter-attack. All the police did was to collect corpses and no further action. Did the not get involved even in trying to stop counter-attacks?

CHIEF MATHEBE: The incidence which I have counted are numerous. There is nowhere where police were not involved. They were involved, all of them. In other incidences they

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

24 P MATHEBE

were involved in the destabilising the area. The Imbokhoto would come there after. In other areas the police would just shoot directly. That is where I talked about the death of the young person and in the incidence, another issue, the police just came to collect the corpse. They would not come during the fighting. We would see the Hippos far from the village and then the fighting would go on. Thereafter when the fight has subsided or when their side is winning, then they would come. They would collect the dead bodies and then leave.

MR MALAN: So they were not directly involved in the fighting? Is that what you are saying? They were watching from a distance? I will tell you why I am asking this.

CHIEF MATHEBE: No. I am coming. In that New Year incidence they were coming to collect the corpse. In other incidences they were directly responsible. At Motete they would prepare for Imbokhoto to attack. In other incidents they would have a different involvement. In other incidences they would have a different involvement.

MR MALAN: I am referring simply to that night of the first of January 1986. That is the only incident that I am referring to.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Do you mean the incidence when they were collecting corpses at Montwane?

MR MALAN: Yes, well, through that night. Are you saying that they ...?

CHIEF MATHEBE: In that incidence the police came to collect the corpses, but they were at a distance and they came in the village and then they stabilised the area. Then they left. Then Imbokhoto came in. We were fighting with Imbokhoto and the police were not involved at that time.

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

25 P MATHEBE

Later they came to collect the corpses.

MR MALAN: How did they destabilise the area that night and left before Imbokhoto came in? If you say they just destabilised the area and left, what did they do? I want to find out, I want to understand what the role of the police was.

CHIEF MATHEBE: They would drive the Hippos inside the streets then when they see a person they will shoot teargas and they would shoot teargas near the houses of the people so that people should lock themselves inside the houses and during that confusion they would leave. Thereafter Imbokhoto would come in. Then Imbokhoto would come and attack.

MR MALAN: So should this not then be referred to as the night of the police attack and not the Imbokhoto attacks? It sounds now the way you put it as if the police led?

CHIEF MATHEBE: This is a fight of the police and it is a joint attack of the police and the Imbokhoto.

MR MALAN: And the police came first and Imbokhoto cleaned up.

CHIEF MATHEBE: Yes, the police came first, threw teargas and then there was confusion, then Imbokhoto came later.

MR MALAN: And that was the pattern that repeated itself through that night?

CHIEF MATHEBE: No.

MR MALAN: Not.

CHIEF MATHEBE: They did it, the disturbance did not last for a long time.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Chief. We do not know if the old man has something to say. Does he have something to MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA

26 P MATHEBE

say?

MR GIYANE: I think what the Chief has said is all true. All what the Chief has said, is all true. When the Chief told you that we were assaulted, we were beaten up, I was an old man, but I was beaten up with the back of a gun from where I was staying up to Simbopoero. I was beaten up with the back of the gun. That is what made us very angry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We thank you very much and we thank the Chief very much. We thank you together with the Chief who gave the evidence in the morning. In Sipedi we say that people should be one mind. We are all aware that you are all striving that the people of this country should all be one thing, be one nation which you people are demonstrating and your determination so that people should not be divided by the conflicts or the ethnical groups. There is great hope for our country in the fact that there are people like yourselves who are seeking to give that kind of leadership. I have to say that many of you have been very impressive as diparkimo and you have been particularly ...

------------------------------

MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA