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DR ALLY: ... destruction of property, Ephraim Mogale and I am going to ask Ms Joyce Seroke again to assist with his statement.

MR MALAN: Mr Mogale, will you please stand for the oath.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you very much. You may sit.

MS SEROKE: Good afternoon Mr Mogale. You are here to tell us about what happened in February 1986 when your parents house was bombed. Could you please continue. Just summarise what happened. Just tell us briefly about what happened.

MR MOGALE: Good afternoon. The problem started when I was released from prison in 1985. It was in October. I am trying to give you a background of what happened. I will not take long. I just want to make you understand about what happened.

MS SEROKE: Not interrupting. We can see that you have got someone who is accompanying you. Is that your wife?

MR MOGALE: Yes.

MS SEROKE: We also welcome her. I thought you were one of the briefers.

MR MOGALE: Maybe she does not suit me, but I believe that she does suit me. Good afternoon again. I will just tell you briefly so that you can understand what happened until

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my parents house was bombed. I said that the problem started in October, the tenth of October when I was released in Robben Island where I was arrested for five years. I served six years when I was charged with the Terrorism Act. So that means I was taken to Robben Island and I joined my President, Nelson Mandela. Actually, I had rested in prison all those years, but when I was released it got worse. It got worse, I was actually troubled because when I came to Uitvloeg, that was the last village in our area, it was in October.

Around December actually there was this talk of taking Moutse into KwaNdebele Government and people did not like that. They started having talks about it everywhere. That is when I understood that the problem had started. The way things were at the moment, people were very angry and I was trying to mediate and talk to people, actually wanting to understand what was happening. I actually wanted to understand because I was someone who was very interested in politics. That is why I was arrested for five years in Robben Island. I actually interfered. The second reason why I interfered is that this was a programme because there were people who tried to make this a racial issue amongst the Ndebeles and the Pedis. That is why I did not understand this because it was actually something what is happening now. Actually the main reason which made me to be part of this whole thing is that UDF was one of the organisations which was trying to help and I was trying to make peace between the Ndebele speakers and the Pedi speakers.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear well.

MR MOGALE: Actually we succeeded in making people meet so

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that they could talk about their problems. I realised very early that the Royal kraal was actually not in line with the State, they did not agree with this whole talk and they wanted the whole nation to stop having conflict. I think we succeeded in that because at the end people who were the leaders in saying that the Ndebele tribe should be killed, they actually lost support at the end. There were no more leaders at the end just like now when the apartheid Government is dropped. So even in those days all those people who were causing conflict were put aside and they were forgotten. That is how we succeeded at the time.

All this caused me to be assaulted because everybody knew me that I cam from Robben Island. They thought problems started when I came back fro Robben Island. That is how the Government thought at the time. Those people came to me. You must understand that the KwaNdebele police at the time could not go to the Moutse area. They were afraid that they did not have evidence because people who were most concerned about this whole thing was people from Moutse. When these two policemen were killed it was very serious. What I am trying to say is that the other reason which caused us to start organisations was to control people. That is how we formed the organisations. We wanted them to follow the right organisation so that there should not be chaos.

The way I heard was that people from Nylstroom they came and they threw stones all over the house. I was very hurt, you know, I took it very seriously. I was not hurt because I was arrested, but people destroying my father's house really hurt me because my mother is a domestic worker. She worked as a domestic worker for years and he started

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building the house, she started building the house from the foundation until she finished it. The whole house was full. That is why I was so hurt, because she worked hard for it and they use to tell her that they were going to kill me and she was heartbroken when I was in Robben Island. So when I came back I was hurt because my father's house was broken. Actually I did not understand this because my whole family was homeless after it was broken. What I am trying to say is that we have an example. They were praising themselves saying, yes, we have defeated him.

Lieutenant Bekker, when I was detained in 1990. I was detained with King Matede. Bekker said to me I know the people who destroyed your house, but we left them because we did not have enough evidence. Everybody who was supposed to given evidence disappeared. There was no evidence at all. That is all I can say about the burning of my house and I could not stay at home anymore. You must understand that I was now in hiding and the SACC helped us a lot because they provided clothing for the kids. They said there is not kind of help, but we will just see what to do, but even today we do not have a house. We are staying at Bophututswana. We are not at Moutse.

There was this unrest in Moutse and Moutse was like Vietnam because the police could not control the situation anymore. They could not get into the township anymore. There was not any link anymore between the Moutse people and the police. Now there was this communication. The comrades would spread their pamphlets. The police would also retaliate by spreading their pamphlets. The police would come and control the townships. Just after they have left the comrades would come in and control. This was a real

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fight. I want to say the negotiations in South Africa came to our rescue because the situation was terrible in Moutse. Very small children were also involved. They did not care whether they lived or they died. Everytime there would be slogans chanted taking comrades to the cemetery. Those comrades who have died. I want to say the whole community of South Africa helped a lot by negotiating. I really respect the South African community. At least we have reached a stage where we are now aware that war is barbaric and I am sure and confident that the South Africans will avoid any situation leading to a war. I want to thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I did not allow you to clap him hands and you can now give him a hand. He was a very impressive speaker. MS SEROKE: Mr Mogale, you have just said now that the problem was not racially based. It erupted because of fighting for the land. Now, I want to know, presently as were are talking, what is the situation? What is the attitude between the two groups of people.

MR MOGALE: These people were made to fight against each other. I have told you that there was a saying that the Ndebeles should be killed. Some of these people wanted their businesses and the King had never said that, our Kingdom never gave out an order for anyone to be killed. I want to go straight to your question. I would say our struggle was a foundation because we can now build on top of the struggle. You find that all structures were belonging to these two groups. They were separate structures, but I want to say the structures have combined now. Now, we should build on the foundation that we have laid before. We should avoid any conflict of the past. There is unity now. We should carry on from there and go forward.

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MS SEROKE: You say you moved to Bophututswana. Do you not have an intention to come back to your place.

MR MOGALE: We do want to come back because my father was buried at Uitflow and I know I am a communist, I want my people to live peacefully. I want them to be situated next to where my father was buried. My mother is a domestic worker and she is staying where she is working. The SACC helped us to erect that shack and we are still there. We would gladly want to come back.

MS SEROKE: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Russell Ally.

DR ALLY: Ephraim, if you recall, earlier there was a witness who said that before that raid on Moutse, the first of January raid, that there had actually been, that youth from the Moutse area had gone into parts of KwaNdebele and they had attacked property and they had attacked people. Is that true? What is your recollection of the nature of the conflict and the youth themselves, how were they involved in the conflict?

MR MOGALE: Imbokhoto, we have already indicated its structure. The Imbokhoto intimidated the people of Moutse and when they were fighting among each other the unrest spread to KwaNdebele. The first thing I want to say is I respect the youth of that day because they took an initiative to combat crime. We did not have crime in this area and our people were so keen to build, to develop the township. There were parks built around. I have indicated earlier on that war is barbaric, but in a war situation there is a point to move forward, but there is that stage, again, in war where everybody loses control and no control can be maintained. My heart was very sore because the

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police did not have anything to do with our story. They would just ignore us and people were being killed.

DR ALLY: But, Ephraim, to come back to the point. Is it the case that the youth were also involved in attacks and that there were a number of businesses that were actually destroyed. So much so that many people who were thought to be Imbokhoto supporters also had to flee and, in fact, were displaced into this area called Verina. Is that what happened as well?

MR MOGALE: That is what I heard. Yes, these people were attacking and a response would be severe and everybody who sides with Imbokhoto would be (inaudible). At one stage there was this issue that if your car registrations is KNA, you do not have to drive anywhere and we said, please, let it not be the situation, but it is true, yes, the youth stood up because they were powerful, they were the young lions and even today I still sympathise with their families towards Verina who fled this area and we say to such people we are sorry for the attack.

DR ALLY: And how were Imbokhoto people identified? What was used to say that that particular person was Imbokhoto? How were they identified or was it indiscriminate or was their specific way of saying that is an Imbokhoto, an Imbokhoto supporter?

MR MOGALE: You must realise that people know each other. I am not sure and ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on. Lights, okay. Alright.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

MR MOGALE: At the time that it was a problem. If there were no structures to control you would mistakenly hit

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someone innocent, but I must say people could identify that this man belongs to Imbokhoto and this one belongs to this organisation and everytime when there was supposed to be a hit, rightful people would be hit, but it had to be clear that nobody could come close to the King because the King was protected. Those who have been killed were the attackers and at one stage I said to the comrades, guys, let us control this fighting. I was a Chief organiser in this area and I said to them, listen, there are people dead and they told me the whole situation. I said to them, alright, everybody who engages in this war is going to be killed then. I am deeply hurt as in now.

DR ALLY: Ephraim, in some of the statements which we got from the other side of the conflict, from Imbokhoto people who were attacked and lost businesses. There were, they implicate or they suggested that it was not just youth or UDF, but that underground structures and they said that the MK were also involved and that people had weapons and AK47's. Do you want to respond to any of that?

MR MOGALE: Let me tell you what I know. I know MK very well because I am a former MK. I am on pension. I got a lot of training in Moscow, Soviet Union. Let me tell you the policy of the ANC. It was not true that we were attacking people's property. At the headoffice I heard that the MK should be involved in military actions, not to attack individuals. The comrades at that time knew who was wrong and who was right, but to say the people had been attacked by the MK, I want to despise that. It is not true. The MK was only complimenting the work that was done by the people at that stage, but the attacks by the MK, I am sorry. I have listened to the leaders of the ANC confirming that,

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yes, the MK attacked the police station, would never leave the police stations alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

DR ALLY: Thank you Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: Ephraim, were you the first President of Cosas?

MR MOGALE: Yes, my Lord.

MR MANTHATA: Ephraim, what are you doing now?

MR MOGALE: I am unemployed. I am only doing temporary jobs.

MR MANTHATA: What kind of work do you do? You know that among the people of Moutse and KwaNdebele there are those who hate war and they want peace and reconciliation. Would you carry on and help them and how would you go about this?

MR MOGALE: We are very lucky, if I have to give you an answer, the second King Mayisha is a peaceful person. King Matede on the other side is a peaceful person and I founded Constralesa and others. I know all the Chiefs and we started Constralesa with the present Chiefs and I know that all members of Constralesa are peace loving people. They want peace. I think, as a matter of urgency, we must have a unity festival that will include everybody and people from Verina will have to come. I do not go with the saying that people have to be punished. Everybody has to come to such festival and I think I am the rightful person to organise such a festival because I was involved in structures, bringing the people together.

MR MANTHATA: Are you telling me now that people are not scared of you even though you are calling yourself a communist. Do you not think they will find it difficult to

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communicate with you?

MR MOGALE: I think they love me most. They think I am a communist and they can realise that a communist is a friendly person and I have got a good relationship with the Christians and many friends of mine are Christians, if I have to tell you and I believe that my people will support me because we were all together in this struggle and they will listen to me as I have listened to them. We will carry on and build this new friendship. It has been proven that the communists are normal human beings like us. It was a tendency to threaten people and say to them the communists are very bad people. Govan Mbeki is a very faithful person. He showed the whole world that communism has to be given a new way. Communists are not people burning churches. Thank you very much.

MR MANTHATA: I want to thank you Mr Mogale. I do not have further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. I nearly followed you. I nearly left the Church and followed you with your communism. We want to thank you. Alright, okay. Wynand.

MR MALAN: Mr Mogale, in evidence you said the comrades knew who was wrong and who was right. MK was here, but they had a different role. They were not involved in the burning at that time. Can you expand a little on the role of MK in KwaNdebele at the time?

MR MOGALE: As an underground man of the ANC I had a link with ANC offices in Lusaka. If there was anything going on here I was in a position to investigate and report. According to the activities of the MK underground structures, I knew everything. Let me give you an example. I went to the police station and I investigated about

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activities at Kwamshlanga and I made it clear that burning of people's houses was not a MK activity. We know that people at Moutse left peacefully and they said they were the indroves. They said they have grown up and they were going out to join the MK in Angola. I had a good link with the trained MK's and those who were not trained at all. Now, this issue of burning houses. I want to dispute it. You know, burning a house, you do not have to be trained. You just have to have matches in your hand and burn the house. So the people who burnt the houses were just angry people. They were really not MK members. Thank you

MR MALAN: No, I am not suggesting at all that MK was responsible for the burning. I want to know. Could you talk a little, Dr Ally referred to this in his first question about the presence of MK. Now you said you were involved in MK and you were here. Were there other members of MK, were you deployed for information tasks, was there any specific role and what was it and, perhaps, what was the strength of MK on the ground in KwaNdebele at the time?

MR MOGALE: Let us understand that the MCW, Military Combat Work, had a wing which was responsible for teaching you what you should know and nothing more. You were supposed to know your task. I only heard from the headquarters that there was a MK here, but the instruction from outside was to build structures and if there was anyone in danger and I recognised that there was something wrong, I would intervene, but as long as the underground movement was carrying on without problems I would not intervene with their work. I would carry on organising structures and recruiting the members for the MK to leave the country and train. I was not throwing bombs, I want to tell you, I was

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a planner. I was in a position to plan, but I was not able to throw bombs. I am a politician and I use to encourage people and I cannot say I did not have a hand in the fighting. I am not perceiving myself as a hero, you know, I am not excluding myself in the heated war that we had in South Africa. This is not heroism, but what I want to say is let us, please, not go back to that kind of a situation. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to thank you for your contribution to our struggle. Especially the struggle in your area. I want to thank you very much that you were so courageous to bring the people together and I hope that the leaders are listening to you as you are making the suggestion to unite the people by organising a unity festival and maybe they should support it so that there can be unity among the people who were separated by apartheid. Thank you very much for your contribution and we hope that you will continue your good work of helping to discipline our young people. Showing them that with discipline you can achieve a great deal more than if you have a chaotic situation.

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