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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 4.12.96 MOUTSE

CHAIRPERSON: ... who accompanied you. Is that your husband?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: It is my husband.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you. I will ask Russell Ally to lead you in your oath, Mrs Mthimunye.

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE (sworn states)

MR ALLY: Mrs Seroke is going to assist you now with your statement.

MS SEROKE: I greet you, Mrs Mthimunye. I welcome you and your husband to this hearing. You are going to relate to us an incident that took place in 1986 here in Kwandebele. We are just going to request you to relate to us what happened on that day.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: There was a meeting at the royal kraal on Monday and people went to this meeting. All of us went to this meeting. We came from all directions. I was also there. The meeting proceeded. On the roof of the bus there was James, Bungwa, Timothy, the three of them were on the top of the bus. They addressed the meeting and they said Makawe and Skosana are not here, let us postpone this meeting so that the two of them can come. Then on a Wednesday they did not pitch up at the meeting. People were dispersed with tear-gas on that day and they took different directions. They were running away from the tear-gas. Stores were burnt down, many of them indeed, and the

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next day our area was also on fire. While we were still surprised we waited a day not knowing what to do and the comrades arrived a day thereafter. They burnt Skosana's shop, they burnt down his house and they came to burn my house. We were puzzled, we didn't know what to do, we didn't know where to go. We didn't really know where to go to. And they killed my son who was residing at number 2. His house was burnt and he was also chased away. He escaped luckily. He spent two months and on the third month they got hold of him. And we didn't know what to do thereafter.

And I didn't know the reason for my son's killing. What had he done.

MS SEROKE: Do you still carry on?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, I have finished telling my story.

MS SEROKE: You have just told us about a meeting that was called at the royal kraal. You said the meeting was called by Prince James. Do you remember the date?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, I am very old, I can't remember the date.

MS SEROKE: What was discussed in this meeting? What was the meeting all about?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Are you talking about the meeting?

MS SEROKE: Yes.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: There was a discussion that Mbcoto should be destroyed.

MS SEROKE: If you say it was discussed that Mbcoto must be killed, were they saying Mbcoto must disband or members of Mbcoto must be killed?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, we were only told that Mbcoto must be killed.

MS SEROKE: Were they saying members of Mbcoto should be

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killed or the organisation Mbcoto should dismantle?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: They were saying the Mbcoto organisation must disband.

MS SEROKE: You went on and you said that the meeting couldn't take place because two people were not present. Can you please mention their names again.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Are you referring to the people who were not ....

MS SEROKE: Do you know their names? Who are their names? MRS MTHIMUNYE: We were told to wait for Makawe and Skosana. They were not present at the first meeting. It was only Madota. And they asked him, Madota where are your friends and Madota said I do not know.

MS SEROKE: You said the second time you didn't go to the meeting.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: That was the third time. The second meeting was called and on the third day when there was another meeting there was now this confusion.

MS SEROKE: Was the meeting on the 12th and the 14th?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes.

MS SEROKE: And on the third meeting you were not present. Did you hear from anyone who attended the meeting about the discussions of that meeting? What was the resolution. Didn't they tell you, those who attended the meeting, what their resolutions were?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, they didn't tell me.

MS SEROKE: When did the tear-gas spraying and the burning of stores start?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: All these things started on Wednesday after the meeting.

MS SEROKE: You say Richard, your son, was also attacked.

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Which political organisation did he belong to?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: I can't remember well but he was under the leadership of their chief Ed Tjokie who is at number 2.

MS SEROKE: What was the reason behind the burning of your house and his shop?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: I don't have any knowledge. I do not know. MS SEROKE: But who were these people who burnt down your property?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: I do not know them. They arrived at night. MS SEROKE: Who would you know at night? Were you not given an explanation who burnt Richard to death? Did you go to the police after that to report this case so that they can investigate who burnt him?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No. You wouldn't go to the police to report such matters. The situation was very hostile. I was at Mabopane after running away from this area that this incident took place.

MS SEROKE: You say in your statement Richard was arrested at Mtete and he was taken to Gambok where he was burnt to death. That was after your house was burnt down and Sebatlani's house. You say there are instigators behind this whole issue and they are Prince Mahlangu and Mbangwa who were working under Chief Mabusa's leadership. Who gave you these names? You just said you don't know who burnt Richard to death.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, I do not know them.

MS SEROKE: But in your statement it is mentioned. Can you please explain to us what do you mean when you say - I was made to understand that a word was taken out that they should be burnt.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: People who were on the top of the bus were

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James Mbangwa and Timothy.

MS SEROKE: Were they on the top of the bus?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes.

MS SEROKE: Was it at the first meeting?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes. I was present.

MS SEROKE: Did they spread the news on that day?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes.

MS SEROKE: What did they say?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: They said Mbcoto must be burned. They said Mbcoto was undermining the king.

MS SEROKE: I think I asked you earlier on and your answer was Mbcoto as an organisation should be destroyed.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes, they said Mbcoto must be killed.

MS SEROKE: You said you didn't report this matter to the police, you didn't report that your house was burnt and your son was also burnt.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: The comrades were going to kill me really - yes, the comrades were really going to kill me.

MS SEROKE: Now what is their involvement in this whole issue? You say you were scared of your life.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: My house was burnt by the comrades.

MS SEROKE: Was your house burnt by the comrades?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes. Even my son's house was also burnt by the comrades.

MS SEROKE: Are they known comrades?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, I do not know them. I really don't know them. I was sitting with my next door neighbour in her house and after a few minutes my house was full of young people and they poured petrol all over and they set it on fire.

MS SEROKE: Were you inside the house?

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MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, we ran away. We jumped fences.

MS SEROKE: So you never reported this matter to the police?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, I gave up hope.

MS SEROKE: I thank you.

MR ALLY: Just to try and clear up something. Often names come up over and over again and there is not necessarily always a connection but the name Mthimunye has come up in quite a few statements by other people as a member of Mbcoto as implicated in certain acts against people who seemed to be on the other side of the conflict. As far as you know your son was he ever - do you know him to have been a member of Mbcoto? To have been involved in any Mbcoto activities?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, I didn't know that he was involved in Mbcoto's activities. And I was never told whether he was a member of Mbcoto or not.

MR ALLY: Do you know whether he was a friend of Majozi Mahlangu, were they acquaintances, did they know each other? Do you have any knowledge of that?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: I do not know. I really don't know.

MR ALLY: Well we do have Mr Majozi Mahlangu appearing later so maybe we can ask him that question, but thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understood you well you said Richard was working together with a certain chief or an induna in Kwandebele. Did I hear you clearly?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: Yes, he was at Kwashote at number 2. That is the chief's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that Chief Tjotie was working with Mbcoto or what kind of a person was he?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: I didn't know him to be a member of Mbcoto.

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My son wasn't a member of Mbcoto also. Nobody told me that he was a member of Mbcoto. Maybe perhaps because he was always working with somebody maybe he was a member of Mbcoto. Maybe he was mistakenly taken because they believed he was a member of Mbcoto.

CHAIRPERSON: You answered me. I thank you. We thank you Mr and Mrs Mthimunye. Was he your only child?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: No, there were three. There were four.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the only one who has died?

MRS MTHIMUNYE: The three are still alive and he was the fourth one.

CHAIRPERSON: We sympathise with you. I hope that even the children have not been affected. We look at you, you still have that pain and we are together with you in that situation. We thank you that you were able to come. We will try to investigate who killed Richard. After our findings we will come back to you. We thank you.

MRS MTHIMUNYE: I also thank you.

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