CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask Dingi Ngwenya to come forward?

While she's coming forward, can I welcome some guests from Germany. I'm afraid my pronunciation might not be good enough but anyway I would like to welcome them. Anna Standhebel and Sonke...I'm not even going to attempt, but welcome to you. We also have the hospital superintendent Dr Sija. Would you please stand so that we can please welcome you.

Mr Ngwenya, good afternoon.

MR NGWENYA: Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please introduce the young man who is sitting next to you?

MR NGWENYA: Tulani Ngwenya, my son.

CHAIRPERSON: Tulani, welcome to you as well. Mr Ngwenya you are taking us to 1993. Dr Russel Ally is going to help you tell your story, but will you please stand to take the oath. Mr Hugh Lewin will help you.

DINGI S NGWENYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

DR ALLY: Good day! You're coming to speak about your son Mbongeni and the circumstances which led to his death. We have a statement from you which is quite comprehensive, so I'm going to ask you if you would go through some of the main points which are contained in your statement. Thank you.

MR NGWENYA: I greet you all members of the Commission. I thank this opportunity that has been afforded me so that I could talk about my son, my lost...(intervention)

(Dr Ally makes an appeal for silence).

In 1993 on the 20th, it was on a Friday evening, I was coming back from my work place at about 5:30pm. My son was there at the time and he had just come into the house and went out. When I called him in as he was going out he said to me he was coming back in a few minutes, and after quite a few minutes I thought he was coming back only to find that he didn't come back into the house.

I heard some gun shots whilst I was inside the house. My house is situated in the main street where I reside. When I heard this gun shot it occurred in my mind to ask myself as to what was happening, and when I looked around the yard as well as the house I discovered that my son, the one who went out wasn't in the house at that time and I went out of the house. The gunfire continued outside and I went out to investigate. I went to the direction of the gunfire but I didn't know who was firing shots. After I had travelled quite some distance up to my neighbour's place that is next to the Tarette(?) Shop, I saw a body on the ground that was a security members but I did not see the ones who were having the firearms at the time. I just discovered that I was amongst them. I was able to survive but I do not know how I survived because they were firing shots towards my direction and I went back.

I looked at the people who were firing and I continued looking at them shooting at random and I saw them firing towards a ford from Mabaso's family, and at the time I was in my yard and watching the people as they were shooting. Three were about three assailants, two of them had two guns each, they were using one gun whilst the other guns were on their waists. At that time I hadn't yet discovered that my son was the first to be shot and when I went out it occurred to me that my children were not all in the house and they had already shot some of the members of the neighbourhood.

I went out at that stage towards the tavern where my son was shot, that is before I heard that he's been shot at that tavern, and I came across some of his friends who told me that my son had been shot. I proceeded to the scene of the crime and I fear I lost consciousness then, when I saw him lying on the ground. There was one policeman from Lisilo who was looking after the corpse. I never had a chance to look at him and identify him only to find later on that I knew the guy who was standing there and some white policemen came to the scene at that stage, two of them and one of them came to me and asked me as to whether I was a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party and when I answered him I told him to leave me alone and asked him as to whether, was this part of the reason that we were being shot at because we were members of the particular political organisation.

I stayed there where my son had been killed, that is on that scene, up to such time that it was 12 midnight, and they came, they said they were taking finger prints, but at the same time they were laughing at us. They were mocking us. That came as a surprise to me because they were policemen and to me it seemed as a surprise and their conduct was unacceptable because they were picking up the spent cartridges and keeping them to themselves. I remained there. We were told that there were some crime scene technicians who were supposed to come and take some photographs of the scene and we saw some who were members of the police force who were also involved.

This came as a surprise to us and we questioned our safety and security when people die and policemen seem to be involved and at a later stage we put them in some cast that is political. I was also helping in packing the bodies into that van and they were taken to the police station. We waited there and I was called as the bereaved, I was told to go to the green door to submit my name and I asked them as to what was I supposed to submit my name for, because they had seen what happened and they had done it with impunity and why should I go and submit a statement because they had done what they wanted to do and there was absolutely no reason for me to furnish my name, and I did not want to sign.

I said to them what do they want me to sign, is that a verification of them having killed him? I flatly refused to attached my signature and I waited until they conducted a post mortem and on the day of the funeral there were talks that they were afraid to come to my son's funeral because they were scared their lives were not safe. This came as a surprise to me because I did not know how this all started and why it happened. That's why I say I'm thankful for this opportunity so that I can talk because we realised that we were being killed at Tandukukhanya but we had absolutely no power to counteract what coming was actually happening. On the 6th when we went to Naspoort we heard them talking, that is the killers or the perpetrators. As we are sitting here we know who the killers are, that is the most painful and disturbing part of the whole thing. I think if you die and you do not know who killed your loved one it's better, but if you are killed by a person that you know it's very unacceptable.

DR ALLY: Thank you Mr Ngwenya for relating that incident to us, could you tell us a little bit about your son Mbongeni, how old he was at the time, whether he had been involved in any political activity, what role he played in the community.

MR NGWENYA: Mbongeni was 18 years old and he was still attending school at that time. During that time he was a member of the ANC but he was not a fully-fledged member because at that time he was still at school but he used to attend the ANC meetings and he identified with the ANC ideologies and when he was supposed to take an ID he said Mandela was going to be released and he was going to bring an end to the pass laws. He seemed elated by the idea of Mandela being released from prison. So I could say he was a member of the ANC though he was as young as 18 years.

DR ALLY: In the statement which you submitted you speak about a conflict in the township with political organisations fighting each other, mainly the ANC and the IFP. Could you just speak a little bit about this aspect in your understanding.

MR NGWENYA: I can say that at that time it wasn't very important for one to belong to any particular political organisation, but there were certain people who made it a very important issue. Belonging to some political organisation became a very important issue to some and that's what led to the conflict, because to us it wasn't that important. We used to know that there were certain political organisations but that differences between them weren't any big issue as far as we were concerned at that time.

DR ALLY: Your late son, was he in any way involved in this conflict, identified by anyone as part of that conflict that was taking place?

MR NGWENYA: I wouldn't know because when he left or maybe with his friends one of them pointed him out, I don't know. I've got no idea. So you're not sure as to whether when your son was shot that this was a deliberate plan to actually killing him or that he happened to be at a place that was attacked on that particular day. What's your feeling about this?

MR NGWENYA: The way that the gunfire took place on that day the rumours that circulated later on was that they wanted Mr Thabete to be shot on that particular day and when they didn't get Mr Thabete, they came across the youth who were roaming around the streets and they were shot at random.

DR ALLY: This Mr Thabete who they wanted to shoot, tell us a little bit about him and why.

MR NGWENYA: According to the rumours they say he was a staunch member of the ANC, that's why he had to be shot.

DR ALLY: And this place, this tavern that you speak about where your son was shot, was this a place that he, this Mr Thabete visited on occasion? Did you have any knowledge about that?

MR NGWENYA: The tavern is next to Mr Thabete. Mr Thabete is just a house below and the tavern is a little bit further up.

DR ALLY: So your son happened to be an unfortunate victim of this conflict and just happened to be at the tavern on that particular day. Is that not your understanding?

MR NGWENYA: I think his Brother Tulani can explain because they were together at that time. He can elaborate on the reasons as to why they were there.

DR ALLY: I think that you did give some explanation. The other thing I want to ask you, in your statement you mention Pla Kezwa who.., can you tell us a little bit more about this Kezwa.

MR NGWENYA: When I first heard about Keswa it was at the Piet Retief Court where there was an allegation that Kezwa is the one who killed my son and I later heard at Nelspruit at the amnesty committee that he's the one who shot my son. e was also present amongst the assailants but the one who shot my son was Keswa. I even saw him, he told me and explained how he worked in Thandukukhanya or how he killed members of the community in Thandukukhanya.

DR ALLY: And Kezwa has applied for amnesty? He's one of those who appeared in Nelspruit.

MR NGWENYA: Yes that is correct, he's one of the people who put in an application for amnesty and we were perturbed as to how could he ask for amnesty because that was cold-blooded murder. He had an intention to kill and now he was asking for amnesty.

DR ALLY: Did you give evidence at the amnesty hearing?

MR NGWENYA: No we were never afforded the opportunity to air our views.

DR ALLY: You were not informed beforehand that Keswa was going to be appearing and that as the family you could be present in the amnesty hearing?

MR NGWENYA: I was present at the Amnesty Committee in Nelspruit but we were not afforded the opportunity to address him or to air our views as he was afforded the opportunity to air his own views or ask for amnesty.

DR ALLY: Sorry for pushing this issue Mr Ngwenya but I would just like to know, did you have any legal representation, any lawyer present at the amnesty hearing?

MR NGWENYA: No I never had any legal representation, I just went there with my family. We had no legal representation.

DR ALLY: How did you get to know about this amnesty hearing?

MR NGWENYA: I received some documentation or a letter that I should appear at Nelspruit. All those who were victimised or involved were called to attend the Amnesty Committee.

DR ALLY: Thank you Mr Ngwenya, I'm sure that you will in due course be hearing from the Amnesty Committee and what decision they make with regard to these amnesty applications. But thanks for coming to speak to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: Mr Ngwenya roughly how many people died that night?

MR NGWENYA: Five people died in different streets. There was one in my street and another one in another street, a different street. Some got injured. There were five all in all.

MR MANTHATA: And all those people were said to be killed by the squad where Keswa was being or did you know a number one?

MR NGWENYA: Yes that is correct. They all died on the same day and were killed by the same assailants.

MR MANTHATA: You I wonder whether I heard you well, you were saying that should Keswa be granted amnesty this may not be acceptable or may not be easily accepted by the community. Am I correct?

MR NGWENYA: Yes I did say that.

MR MANTHATA: When you say so are you saying that this is the common view held by the people in the township?

MR NGWENYA: I think that is the view of the community because that is how they felt when this took place because it's quite a number of people who died, it's not only my son.

MR MANTHATA: You referred to people in this hall today who were a part of those people who were killing others. Did I hear you well?

MR NGWENYA: I wouldn't know whether they are present because I wouldn't see them, the hall is full of people. I wouldn't be able to see their faces

MR MANTHATA: I see but I thought I heard you talking about an element of fear, you know within this hall referring to almost an atmosphere of insecurity in the community.

MR NGWENYA: Do you mean with regard to this incident? Yes there is an element of fear because we do not trust each other especially after the incident took place and when we heard as to who the perpetrators as well as the people who sent the perpetrators, we heard that they were amongst our own community. They were members of our own community and they also were members of the neighbourhood and we don't know what made them turn against us.

MR MANTHATA: Perhaps, can one find out whether.., okay we have heard those people that.., it is alleged that the IFP shot those people, did you at any stage hear or learn about people who could have been similarly killed by the ANC in this community in the same fashion as these others who died at the Tavern?

MR NGWENYA: No I have no knowledge thereof.

MR MANTHATA: This general fear in the community, is there anything being done to address it, say from the church? From the Council members, from the mayor, from the business sector. Is there anybody who's talking about the general fear in the community?

MR NGWENYA: No we were still in the process of negotiating. With regard to what you said, whether there is a person that we are speaking to. What I mean to say is there is no such a person except today that we have been given this opportunity to talk and we do go to churches where we get some encouragement but besides that there's nothing or no-one.

MR MANTHATA: In short you are saying that the churches talk about these things, just at their services but the churches have never come together to talk about these things as they affect the community?

MR NGWENYA: No not as yet.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenya if I can just approach this question a little bit differently. You are the second person today who has talked about what happened at Nelspruit when the individuals who were responsible for the respective deaths of son as well as the husbands of the women who appeared earlier on, mentioned names of other people who are in the community and who are still living in the community. Now my question is, given that this is happening, I understand that the whole issue of amnesty is a very difficult one, especially where people have lost their loved ones. But as these individuals are still living in the community, how do you, Rose and Theresa who spoke before you and the community move forward in understand this process in healing the community. Would you like to give us some of your thoughts on that?

MR NGWENYA: We try to console each other and each one of us has got his or her own problems. But there is no source of encouragement from anywhere or we can't find any solace in each other. We all on our own have to deal with our own problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenya thank you very much for your honesty. As I have said earlier on already that the last few years before out democracy were indeed very difficult years. Thousands of people died, and as we tried to understand what happened, difficulties arise and you and others today are experiencing those difficulties. The difficulties about amnesty and the granting of amnesty, it's not my responsibility to try and convince you why amnesty should be granted but as I showed from that article early on, people were living in fear at the time, people were dying and it is within that context that we've got to understand what the Commission is trying to do and what the Government is trying to do. I feel for you today on the loss of your son and I hope that as part of the Commission's responsibility that we can come back and continue the discussions in terms of the conflicts that are still remaining within your community. Thank you very much for coming.

Comrades and friends. Thank you very very much, this last period and the people who have come forward has been a very difficult time for all of you as you have been sitting here and listening, and I'm not just talking about the discomfort you're feeling standing at the back or sitting on the floor. I would like to suggest that we break for lunch and that we come back at half past two. Thank you very much.

--------------------------------