1 J V SKHOSANA 

DR BORAINE: ... if you would come to the podium on the stage please. Mrs Skhosana, could you put the earphones on please and I would be grateful if you could tell me if you could hear my voice in the earphones. Not yet. You can hear alright. Can you hear my voice in the earphones and can you hear the translation? Let us make absolutely sure that that is right. You cannot hear anything.

MRS SKHOSANA: I cannot hear anything.

DR BORAINE: Let us try another one. Whilst we are waiting could I just mention that these sets are available. If you do not have a set and need one, please indicate and we will ask one of our staff to make sure that you get that. Thank you. There are quite a number who are without them. Could you, alright, let us try again Mrs Skhosana. Can you hear me through the earphones? You can hear nothing at all.

MRS SKHOSANA: There is no Zulu coming through.

DR BORAINE: Well, we cannot proceed until we have made sure that that is working. Let me try again. Is it any better? Nothing at all. Can you hear my voice in English on the?

DR BORAINE: Or nothing at all. You cannot hear anything. You can hear. We have asked some of the staff to make sure that the available headsets are distributed and they are also at the entrance to the hall. So if you want to help yourselves please do so. Now, Mrs Skhosana, can you hear my PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

2 J V SKHOSANA

voice? You can? Can you hear the translation? You can. Wonderful. Mrs Skhosana, I want to welcome you very warmly to the Commission. We are very grateful that you have come. We know it is not an easy experience and to relive what happened ten years ago can be very traumatic. Now, can I just, I am talking. Okay. Are you okay now? Can you hear my voice? Alright. Let me try that again. You alright? Okay. Mrs Skhosana before you give you evidence I have to ask you to take the oath. So I would be very grateful if you would stand please and if you would raise your right hand.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Mrs Skhosana, I know it is quite a nervous ordeal and especially being first, but I would ask you to please relax as much as you can and to speak up loudly and clearly because everybody wants to hear what you have to say. That is why they are here and also you will be speaking not only to those who are here, but through the radio, through the newspapers, through television you will be telling your story which you have already told to our statement takers. Mrs Skhosana, you are going to tell a very terrible story of what happened ten years ago when ten or nine, rather, young people were brutally killed, but I do not want to put words into your mouth so I am going to ask you to tell your story in your own words and when you are ready, please start.

MRS SKHOSANA: It was in 1986 some youth came to my house. There were four. They were in a red combi. I was together with my sister's son and they entered the house, but I did not see the combi. They greeted me. They said, I thought maybe they were visiting us. They stayed there for some few PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

3 J V SKHOSANA

days, but I cannot remember well. Four of them, they went away and four of them came back again. I was staying with my younger brother Ezekiel Skhosana. They stayed there with Ezekiel. I asked them what are they going to eat? They said the person who brought us here he gave us money that we are going to KwaNdebele where the relatives, we did not have relatives in KwaNdebele, only you. Then he said he is going to buy us food and we smoke. You buy us cigarettes. This brother is going to give you your money. They left, they did not say where they were going and then we stayed there.

After some times he use to come to see these kids and then they went to the room. It was 12 o' clock, I was listening to a story. He spoke to them after the story went away. He did not greet me. I just looked at him and then he looked at me and said do not look at me like that. Then I passed some funny remarks. Then he gave my, a young kid 50 cents and then he left. Then he left. I stayed with these young boys. I went away because they were five between Mbokodo and the Comrades. I went to their rooms at the back rooms. The boys were sleeping in one room. Some of them were sleeping in the kitchen. I stayed with these young men. He knocked and I opened the door and then I wanted to see this person. I said do not hide him away from me. They said they wanted to fight. They were drinking. I think it was 12 o' clock, midnight. I said to them just close your windows with the curtain. Then they closed the windows and they continued drinking and then I slept.

The following morning these people came back again. This one who is sitting next to me was ill. I took her to the doctor and then said Ma Skhosana, they said we are going.

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

4 J V SKHOSANA

We are causing the bother this evening. I asked them do the parents know about this and they said their parents knew and this person is coming here to give us money and she give you money to give our parents R15 000,00, R15 000,00 each. The other one went with me to the doctor and then I said my son is not going anywhere because you agreed with the parents you can go, but not my son. I stayed with this young man. I took Ezekiels' shoes, I opened the door because the rooms were facing each other. I just wanted to see them when they leave.

At about 12 o' clock midnight four men came. They went to the boy's room and Zoing Kamule came to me and said Sis Johanna, I want the key because I want my ID. I said when you leave this place please just try to close the gate. They went away. I was just sitting there, I was sleeping, but I opened the door and then my door closed. I did not see who closed the door. I stood up, I looked through the window. I saw one fat man. He was looking into the boy's room. There was one who use to be their friends who was next to the garage. While I was still standing there the child was crying and then I heard the sound of guns. Then I was screaming. They were wearing balaclavas and they were wearing camouflages. They shot and then I screamed and the other one said "pasop", be careful. Then they were going back, backwards. Then I called this one. I said wake up, wake up, let us run away.

I took the child, I threw the child through the window. I went out through the window and this one followed me through the window. We went to our back opposite. I knocked the door. I said to them do not, they should not switch on the lights because I do not want them to see me. PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

5 J V SKHOSANA

We entered the house. The house was burning until the morning. Then I, then she said she is going to accompany me back to my house. We did not sleep for the whole night. We were watching through the window from the back opposite. I only found that there were corpses down. They did not have arms.

I went out, I was crying. Comrades from KwaNdebele passed by. They were coming from a camp and they asked me what happened. I said to them Ezekiel and his friends were killed and they came in and they found that these guys are sleeping now. I said to this one should go to fetch my mother in Mamelodi to come and visit me. Then my next door who is called Skhosana came there to my house and said it is better for us to go to the police station. Then we took the cartridges, bullet cartridges and we put them safely. We went with Mrs Skhosana to the police station. The four even can say anything to the police. They started talking about it. I heard them talking about what happened yesterday and they said to me I am coming to report the death of my child and other boys.

Then went there back to my house with them. I said to them this person came with an Isuzu. The colour of the car which I saw, I showed them, overtook us on the way. When we arrived at home we sat down with the police. I think that someone here was there. They went to Victor and asked him what happened. The KwaNdebele Comrades took him away because the police were looking for him. I told them that the person who killed this person was wearing police uniform and they said police cannot kill a person and burn him. Then they took the bullets. They said these are the bullets for Ramakowe and then they said he is the person who killed

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

6 J V SKHOSANA

these children. Who is this person, where is this person staying? We went to Bunduinns. They said in Bunduinns this person was booked here. These boys use to come to him. They only use to come here and take his food and eat. I said to them he looked like a police because when I asked him if he was a Comrade he use not to say anything to me and they said he left the previous day and he did not come back since the boys were killed.

When we came back from Bunduinn I found that they have already taken them to the mortuary. There were a lot of boys down there because there was a bad smell in the room. I could not even pick up the bones. The parents of these boys came to my house and we started picking up the bones. I said to them they should not allow my mother to get inside there, the house. We took my mother to the doctor. I explained to the doctor and the doctor gave her an injection. The doctor said I should also be given an injection, but if I give you this injection, if these people come, you cannot be able to run. While we were still waiting there they found me removing the mat inside the kitchen. The carpet inside the kitchen and I was trying to scrub the door. They greeted me, I took them to the room. I was crying. They did not even cry. They just said that what happened in the room and one of the mothers picked up a bone.

Magwena's mother asked my mother where is my cousin. I said is in the room. They never said anything to me. They went to the Government Mortuary, they went back to Vlak and they said my boy should go to be buried in Vlak. In Vlak they told the people that I killed these boys through the Mbokodo. They said, they asked me who is

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

7 J V SKHOSANA

Johannes. I said let us go to the Comrades and explain to them what happened. They asked Johannes, is your mother Mbokodo and she said, no, my mother is an ANC, but the person who gave these statements said your mother was Mbokodo and then they said they are going to send a combi with Comrades to go to give me security. Those were Comrades from Vlak. They stayed there for two weeks and I said to them food is expensive. I cannot give you food because I no longer have money. The Comrades from Vlak left. They went back to Mamelodi and they use to come to visit me to see the situation.

I went to Vlak to bury him. I carried, we took those boys to Vlak. We wrapped the bones with the white sheet and while I was still at home a Hippo came with soldiers and they took the bones away with them. They never told me anything. The following morning Malabo Sana came in the morning together with the police. They asked me you killed nine Comrades and they said stand up and I went to the police station. I found the police station from Bronkhorstspruit, only one of them. They took me to Silverton. I gave the statement to the police. We came back to the office in Bronkhorstspruit. They said to me who is going to go with me to my house because they can say they want to discipline me and burn me.

We buried, after having buried him and after they have buried, the parents of the other children have buried them they said to me I am Mbokodo, I killed nine children. The Makwaza and the Kamula family were saying that. The Balongi people never said anything to me. The Malabula family, the children from there came to my house, started stoning my house. After having explained to them, after they have said PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

8 J V SKHOSANA

that I am Mbokodo they stoned my house. I went to the Ndebele Chief. I said I am with him. We started discussing. They gave me a paper, a document, I sent someone to take this summons to them. They did not got there. It was on a Sunday. We went back there again and they said you are going to speak in the office.

When we went to the office the Malabula family they did not come, only the children. The Malabula and the Kabinde was, came to the meetings. We started discussing about the issue. They said Johanna if, as long as you stay in KwaNdebele you are Mbokodo. If a person who stayed in Klipgat, the Klipgats and we know that if anyone from Malabula gets injured, I think last of last year my brother's children came to school in Vlak. When they passed Malabula's family they were stoned because they were said that Skhosana's family killed their children because these, you ate their meat. I kept quiet. I said to these children do not use these streets, do not use this street. I said to my brother just take your children out from that school, they must go back to Engangala.

What disturbs me is that from 1986 since these children died I stayed being Mbokodo. What I want now, what I am happy, what makes me happy is that the parents know who killed their children. Why I have said one family who is the Kambulewa, but the Makwaza ones who are not a family, but today they are saying that I am Mbokodo. They do not talk to me. When they see me on the street they, I think they see an animal. They never gave me the money. I never killed their children. They did not even pay me because I was giving their children food. They are saying that today I am a witch, I killed their children. So now I am happy

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

9 J V SKHOSANA

because they know who killed their children. That is why I am here to say the name that I am a Mbokodo, the name that I killed their children. I want them to wash my name, to clear my name. I want the person who killed these children in my house to pay all the expenses and all the furniture and the clothes which burnt in the house.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed Mrs Skhosana. I have just a few questions which will help us to complete the picture. Before I do that though, I am sorry, I forgot to ask about the person who is sitting next to you. Could you just please tell us who that is.

MRS SKHOSANA: Emmah Skhosana, my daughter.

DR BORAINE: Emmah, I just want to say a word of welcome to you too and I am grateful to you for being in support of your mother today. Mrs Skhosana, the young people who stayed in your home, there were nine of them. They were ...

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: ... members of the ANC Youth League?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: That is right. So they were politically active?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: One of them was Ezekiel Skhosana, that was your younger brother?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: How old was he when he ...

MRS SKHOSANA: He was the last born at home.

DR BORAINE: Yes, I see. So old was he when he died?

MRS SKHOSANA: He was born in 1942, but I, yes 1962. I cannot remember how old he was in 19..

DR BORAINE: 24 Years old and the other young people, were

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

10 J V SKHOSANA

they all more or less the same age?

MRS SKHOSANA: No, no I mean they were of different ages. I think those were of the same age with him, the Mabena boy. There was someone who was the eldest. I do not know where he was coming from, but the other ones were of his age, but I do not know their years, but I think they were of his age.

DR BORAINE: Alright, so they were all young people. Now, I want you to try ...

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: ... and think back.

MRS SKHOSANA: There is another one who was still very young. I think he was 16 years old. He was still very young the other one.

DR BORAINE: Okay, thank you. I want you to think back very carefully now, I know it is ten years ago, you told us that there was a man who was assisting them with money and you did not trust that man. Can you tell us a little bit more about him? What age was he, what did he look like, what were his clothes and so on?

MRS SKHOSANA: This person, I have never the seen person who was ???????. I even told them that this person looked like a policeman. Then they said he was going to assist them with money, but he never helped them. I think of his age he was of the type who was inside the interpreter. I think she is referring to the interpreter.

DR BORAINE: No offence mam. Thank you. Did you know his name? Did they ever tell you what his name was?

MRS SKHOSANA: No, they spoke about the name, but I forgot the name.

DR BORAINE: Have you ever seen him again?

MRS SKHOSANA: Definitely no, definitely no since they died.

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

11 J V SKHOSANA

DR BORAINE: So he just disappeared afterwards.

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, but my sister's son, she said she saw this person in Eersterus. He was wearing a police uniform. He is a policeman.

DR BORAINE: She actually identified the same man who was with them later on wearing a police uniform. Is that what you are saying to us?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, she said she saw the same person because he even gave her money in the house the other day. She said she saw him in the street. He was wearing a police uniform together in the company of other policemen.

DR BORAINE: Would we be able to talk with your sister or her son and to get the name do you think?

MRS SKHOSANA: Excuse me.

DR BORAINE: Let me repeat the question. We have investigators who are, we have investigators who are assisting the Commission. If we were able to contact your sister or her son who saw this man in the police uniform, do you think that they would be able to point him out to us or to give us a name?

MRS SKHOSANA: I do not know if she can be able to point him. She was still very young by then, but she told the following year after their death that she saw him. I do not know if she be able to point him now.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Now, when the killing took place it was round about midnight. You saw a car outside, but you were not able to see the number, but you said you saw men wearing camouflage uniforms. Just tell us a little bit more. What did you actually see when the gunfire started or you heard the car stop outside your house?

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

12 J V SKHOSANA

MRS SKHOSANA: I saw the car, I saw the lights, I saw a piece of a car. It is a big house the other side and then this side is a garage. So there is a passage, so this is the passage which we use when we go to the rooms ... but I saw them, but I cannot tell you what kind of a car was that. DR BORAINE: But you can and have said that they were wearing some kind of uniform.

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, they were wearing police uniforms. The three of them were shooting because in the kitchen, I mean, there was light in the kitchen and the room in which they were shooting at. The gun was shooting continuously, you see, there was no time to, there were three who were shooting. They were wearing balaclavas. I could not recognise whether they were white men or black men. When they said "pasop" I could not differentiate whether it is a white man or a black man who is saying that because if the kids did not tell me that there were people who were coming to fetch them maybe I could have been asleep, but I saw them why, because I was worried. I am happy because their parents are here and I will be able to live freely because I did not kill their children.

DR BORAINE: Yes. Thank you. Can you tell me, just one last question about that. How many men did you actually see who came with guns?

MRS SKHOSANA: One was standing at the garage door who was knocking at their room who was wearing a white t-shirt and the other three, the other one was standing at the door. The others were coming and then I was trying to look to warn the others not to come. I was looking at him through the window. He was just in front of me. So he was stopping the other ones, warning the other ones not to come and the other PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

13 J V SKHOSANA

one was standing on the garage. I think there were four.

DR BORAINE: Thank you and the man who was wearing a white t-shirt, obviously, was not wearing a uniform?

MRS SKHOSANA: No, I just only saw a t-shirt. I did not see the uniform because they were outside, but inside the house I saw three because he stayed outside the other one with the t-shirt.

DR BORAINE: Okay and you could not see whether he was white or black, the man with the t-shirt?

MRS SKHOSANA: Not, the one with the t-shirt was a black person. I saw him because he was not wearing a balaclava. Although it was dark I was able to see, but the others who were shooting I could not see them. I could not recognise them because the other one was standing on the garage door. When the other two were coming the other one was looking at the door in the room and he was warning them not to come. He was, I thought they were police who were coming to arrest them. I never thought they were coming to kill them. I thought they were coming to arrest them because they were ANC. It was the apartheid time, the ANC was banned, it was restricted.

DR BORAINE: Sure. You picked up some of the cartridges and you gave them to the police or they took them from you?

MRS SKHOSANA: No, we took those bullet cartridges and put them inside the glass. When the police came to my house I show them the glass, I show them the cartridges and then they asked me do you know Piet Macawe and they said these bullets belong to the gun of Piet Macawe. They said that is the, those are his bullets and they started removing those ones which were in the wall, on the wall. They were in the boys room, also in the kitchen. They took those cartridges.

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

14 J V SKHOSANA

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Was there any inquest held following the death and the funeral? Was there any formal inquest or court case that you can remember?

MRS SKHOSANA: No. There was nothing. They came to me to ask if I have found the people who killed my children. I asked them, no the matter is in the hands of the police. I am not a policeman who is going to go around looking for people who killed these children. You are the people who were supposed to investigate this matter and arrest the perpetrators because they said the police cannot kill a person and burn him because truly speaking I stayed for two months without even entering my house because I had these nightmares. I will hear gun sounds and I will go back.

DR BORAINE: Did you receive a death certificate for Ezekiel?

MRS SKHOSANA: On the certificate I think the people who stayed in Mamelodi and those who were at home and my mother said did not get the death certificate. The time they went to the Government Mortuary they never told us, the other families. They went with my brother. They came back, they did not tell us anything. When the time arrived that they should go there to give a statement they said they want a death certificate. I went to my mother. My mother said she do not have the death certificate and then they have to go to Bronkhorstspruit to go and ask for a death certificate. Then I asked, they said my children, it is not my, my younger brother is not dead. Only theirs is dead and I asked them the time we are burying him, were we burying just the spirit?

DR BORAINE: Mrs Skhosana, I only have two more questions. The first is that it is clear that you are very, very

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

15 J V SKHOSANA

distressed about the killing, but that you are also very distressed that some people blamed you for that and you have in your statement now, today, tried to make it clear that this was not of your doing and that you have no blame or responsibility. I hope that, as a result of this, you will be accepted again into your own community. Do you think that, are you hopeful that this will happen?

MRS SKHOSANA: Excuse me.

DR BORAINE: Let me say you are very distressed that people blamed you for the killing of those nine boys. You have protested your innocence today. Are you hoping that this will help you to be accepted again into the community?

MRS SKHOSANA: I do not know why because I do not know what is in their heads. Just now, today, they arrived they were sitting that side. They did not even greet me. They were supposed to greet me because they know who killed their children, but they did not even greet me.

DR BORAINE: In your statement you told one of our staff that in 1996 you were visited by three policemen who asked you to give a statement about something that happened ten years ago. Did they explain why they were now, after ten years, looking at this?

MRS SKHOSANA: Amongst these three policemen, since that time until they came this year no police came to my house. They were police from town. It was the first time for me to see them coming to investigate about this case. They took me to photos. I said I want to remember it and then they took the photo and gave them, they started photographing the house. I destroyed the house and they took photos for their, for the destroyed house. They went away and then Emmah spoke with them because I was not there. After that

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

16 J V SKHOSANA

they left. They came back again, I was there. I just remembered now. They came back again, I gave them a statement, I went, they called me in town, I went to town. Then they gave me the photo of these children and they said can you remember your younger brother? So there was a belt in his waist and I said to them, they said, I said this is the one and they said I should come to town. I went to town. They said the people who killed your children, we are going to find them. I said I can be very much happy if you can find them because when I go to Mamelodi they say I am the person who killed their children and they say when they have arrested him they will call me to the court and it ended up there. They said the money which we use for transport, they were going to give us. We were two.

DR BORAINE: So, they came in January in 1996 about ten years later and you have not heard anything since that time?

MRS SKHOSANA: No, no. It was the first time for them to come. They came for the third time year. They came three times this year. That time even they told us that I should go to town. They never came back again. All these years they did not come.

DR BORAINE: I just have one very last question. Can you tell me which police station they came from so that we can go back to them. Where were they based or where did you go and give your statement?

MRS SKHOSANA: It is in Kwagga and Kwamshlanga. It was in Kwagga and Kwamshlanga and then the white policemen who came are staying, are here in town.

DR BORAINE: You mean the Pretoria?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, here in Pretoria.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mrs Skhosana. I do not have anymore

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

17 J V SKHOSANA

questions, but I am going to hand you back to the Chairperson in case anyone else wants to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Russell Ally.

DR ALLY: Mrs Skhosana, why did these boys come and stay at your house?

MRS SKHOSANA: Actually I cannot explain why because I just saw these children coming from Mamelodi. There is Victor who can explain how they came there. I just saw them when they arrived in my house. I accepted them, why, because I knew their parents. I think there were five families. Five parents I knew. The others I did not know. I wanted to take them back to their homes and they said Comrades are going to discipline you if you expel them and then I did not expel them because I knew their parents. So I thought they agreed with their parents that they should come to my place. That is why I let them to stay in my house because I knew their parents, their mothers and all their parents are here. If I did not know their parents I could have expelled them, but now I am surprised that they say I have killed their children.

DR ALLY: So it was because of that family connection that they came to your house? It was the family connection?

MRS SKHOSANA: They said the Comrades will discipline me if I send them back home. If you chase them away the Comrades are going to discipline you because they would think that you were involved with Mbokodo.

DR ALLY: At the time when those young boys came to stay at your house, this was the time when there was a conflict between, on the one side, Mbokodo and the other side the youth or Comrades of UDF. You yourself, were you involved in any way in this conflict?

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

18 J V SKHOSANA

MRS SKHOSANA: No, no I was never involved in anything. I was not fighting with anyone. I am just a mother. They said to me these boys, when this person went to Vlak to fetch them they said they were coming to fight against Mbokodo and they stayed there in my house and said they were waiting for a day to leave because in the evening they use to stay there in my house. The time this person gave them beers, I think he wanted to kill them by that day because he knew that the other Comrades were in the camp. That is why he came back and found them at home, he shot them and burnt them to ashes.

DR ALLY: Now you say that when they came the first time they were in a red combi. Are you absolutely sure about that? Was it a red combi and do you perhaps know who the owner of this combi was?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, the youngest daughter said, she said they came there with a red combi. I did not see the combi, I just saw it going away. I saw these guys coming there inside. There were eight. Ezekiel was staying with me because he was schooling there in KwaNdebele he was staying with me.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand Malan.

MR MALAN: Mrs Skhosana, I just want to pursue two matters related to other statements. You will understand and you did tell us that the mothers of the other boys were suspicious of your role that you played. You told us about your suspicions on some of the other people, the teacher and others. Everybody is suspecting everybody because we do not know what the story is and, hopefully, we will get down to the facts and things will sort itself out, but just to be

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

19 J V SKHOSANA

fair to you. In some of the statements of the other witnesses that will be led, will be giving evidence later today, references are also made to these suspicions that you have alluded to. Against that background, one of the people say that you were at the time working for Mr Shabangu at his store. Did you never work for Mr Shabangu?

MRS SKHOSANA: I always worked in Ndebele and the evidence that I giving here now is that I never worked. I last worked when I was in Mamelodi. I never worked at that shop, I do not know this Mr Shabangu and at Vlaklaagte there was no shop that belonged to Shabangu. We had Vusies shop, we had Skhosana's shop and we had another shop, I am just trying to get to the name, and there was another shop near AA, but we never had Shabangu's shop at all. You can ask anybody. You would not find any shop belonging to Shabangu. We do not even know Shabangu.

MR MALAN: Mr J D Shabangu had a supermarket at Tweefontein. You do not know that place?

MRS SKHOSANA: I do not even know him. I am at Vlaklaagte.

MR MALAN: They apparently, according to some of the evidence, the boys stayed at Mr Shabangu's shop at the supermarket at Tweefontein and later, the statement says, a woman who worked for him, a certain Johannah, offered them, after an attack at Shabangu's supermarket offered them accommodation at her place which was 20 kilometres away. Just to put it to you, but you have no knowledge of that?

MRS SKHOSANA: No. The boys that were staying by me, I never heard that they were charging any stores. I do not know anything about it and I do not know this Shabangu. I know that they were at my house only.

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

20 J V SKHOSANA

MR MALAN: Mrs Skhosana, you also say that you are self-employed. Can you tell us what your business is, what do you do? Are you a general dealer, storekeeper?

MRS SKHOSANA: I sew curtains and clothes and I sell beans by the bag. I also sell other things such as beans and so forth and maize and also the Ndebele children buy maize and things like that from me. I do not work. I have never worked. I last worked when I was in Mamelodi working in the kitchens. I never worked in KwanDebele.

MR MALAN: And then, just again, and this is not an accusation, it is simply to be fair and open to you because you may not get an opportunity to come back. In one of the other statements there is again reference to these suspicions and one of the witnesses that may be giving evidence, testimony refers to you and says that you were, sort of suspected of peddling drugs, selling dagga. Were you ever involved and you do not have to answer it, but if you want to comment on this you are welcome to. It is not an accusation, but if it is said later and we did not give you the opportunity now to talk about, we would be unfair towards you.

MRS SKHOSANA: Those that say so, I am very happy because it shows that those children that were staying by me, I was giving them dagga to smoke, that is what they are trying to say by saying that, is it not. So, today I want them to cleanse me and send police to my house to come and take out this dagga that they allege that I sell. I want them to go now and go and call the police, send them to my house to go and take out this dagga that they allege I sell because these people that allege that I sell dagga, those are the people that are supposedly, that must have taken the dagga

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

21 J V SKHOSANA

to my house. That is why they can say that because I have got nothing more to say to them. I do not beg them for anything anymore. They are the ones that are embarrassing me and saying bad things about me so I am saying now that they must come, they must take the police and send them to my house today and take out this dagga that they allege I have at my place.

MR MALAN: Mrs Skhosana, thank you very much. I know it is difficult for you to respond to these, but again I want to say that we need to bear in mind that everyone is suspecting everyone and until we get to the bottom of the story, these suspicions will simply continue and we hope that bringing some of these accusations and suspicions into the open, will already start a process of getting to the bottom of the story, of understanding of each other and, hopefully also, to healing and reconciliation, but thank you from my part.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: Mrs Skhosana, my questions. Here you had one John of the ANC youth that you sent to Mamelodi after the murders. What became of this John?

MRS SKHOSANA: Who is John?

MR MANTHATA: You have not given the second name. Okay.

MRS SKHOSANA: The John I know is my uncle. The one that came and took the bones. I do not know any other John. We went in his van with the bones and went to Mamelodi. I do not know any other John.

MR MANTHATA: Okay.

MRS SKHOSANA: My mother's last born.

MR MANTHATA: It is written here, the same morning I sent one of the local ANC youths by the name of John to Mamelodi in order to report the incident to the deceased's parents.

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

22 J V SKHOSANA

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, that one is also John. The Comrade from Ndebele who came with his mother. I sent him to fetch my mum. That is a Comrade. The other John is my uncle.

MR MANTHATA: Ever since these things have happened, Mrs Skhosana, what is your relations with the ANC youths in KwaNdebele now or even in Mamelodi?

MRS SKHOSANA: Yes, we get along very well. Actually, I am their Treasurer. I take care of their funds. We get along very well.

MR MANTHATA: They have not been able to talk to the rest of the parents to address this whole suspicion that is cast on you?

MRS SKHOSANA: These Comrades that were at KwaNdebele in 1986 left. They ran away because there was the Mbokodo that wanted to kill them so they ran away, fled for their lives and just a few young ones remained behind, but the leaders left. The others remained behind. The leaders went to Mamelodi and went to ask for assistance for what was happening at KwaNdebele, but they never got along with my brother and my brother would say that are these the ones that ran away from KwaNdebele. They need to be disciplined. So I was told just let it be and my uncle came to fetch me and we came to sit here, but, I mean, there was nothing more we could do because they ran away because the Mbokodo was wanting to kill the Comrades and the Comrades were fighting with Mbokodo and so forth.

MR MANTHATA: I thought they could have come back after 1990 or after 1994.

MRS SKHOSANA: Who are you referring to?

MR MANTHATA: That is the ANC youth leaders.

MRS SKHOSANA: The Comrades never came back because they

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

23 J V SKHOSANA

left and we left it there and it just started, they just came back recently.

MR MANTHATA: No further questions.

MRS SKHOSANA: Something else I want to say is that I want these people that killed these children to be sentenced to jail so that I can find inner peace because they disrupted my whole life and I would never find peace unless they were sentenced to jail because they destroyed my house and my life and everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We understand that this is very painful to you because even your younger brother was killed there and the other eight guys, but that thing that the people who are your relatives since these killings happened is no longer there. We trust that the Commission will reveal and we are trying to find out who did, who the perpetrators are and we trust that, also, you, that tempers will not flare, that you will not allow this to ill blood to come between you again that caused this terrible deed to happen in the past. We trust that the Commission's work thereto will be able to bring about peace, at least attempt to bring about peace between all of you because the work that we have been, the task that we have been delegated by the President that the Commission should try and work towards unity and reconciliation of our land and even if we hear that there were people that have been hurt, we pray that people will be able to reconcile and that there will be peace in our land when people know the truth. Even your request that the perpetrators be brought to book and be justified is something that we are going to include in our report which we are going to lay before the President and request that Ma Skhosana should obtain some sort of

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

24 J V SKHOSANA

assistance so that perhaps you could see what could be done for him in order to have his house fixed and so forth. It is just that we are going to make these recommendations. We by ourselves have not got the authority to do that, but we will make these recommendations in our report to the President.

We will be asking all of you as people who have to live in one house that there will be some kind of oil that can be soothed over your wounds, but we thank you for having come forward to tell your story today. Thank you very much.

------------------------------

PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG