ON RESUMPTION:

MR LEWIN: Mr Chiba, if I could ask you please to take an oath or to affirm an oath. What I would just like you please to do is to stand.

LALOO CHIBA: (Duly sworn, states).

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much. Our procedure in the Commission is to assign a leading Commissioner, who will help you with your testimony and I will ask Yasmin Sooka to do that now. Thank you.

MS SOOKA: Mr Chiba, I would like to welcome you and Mr Kathradu who has actually come to support you. For youngsters like myself, at the time you were a legend in our community. There were not many people who were involved in the African National Congress at the time, and your name was quite a legend for me when I was growing up. So when you give your evidence today, I would like you to take your time and to feel that you use the time that is allocated to you, wisely, to stress the points which you feel need to come out of your testimony.

I have made certain points which I would like you to stress, but I will intervene as and when I think you haven't touched on those issues.

If you could start by telling us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your own background, and the

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beginnings of your involvement in the African National Congress.

Just to explain to you, when you talk you press the red button and as soon as you are finished you press the grey one and the sound will then come out from there.

If you could begin, please.

MR CHIBA: Thank you very much. First of all I would like to take this opportunity of expressing my deep appreciation for affording me the opportunity to testify before this Commission. Thank you very much.

I really don't know where to start and I have only got half-an-hour. So I suppose the amount of time that is allocated to me will only be about 15 minutes, 20 minutes or so. But I will try to recap as much as possible.

First of all I would like to say that I became politically involved after the arrest of Comrade Kathradu and 155 leaders of the Congress alliance. That was in 1956. As a result of their arrest I became increasingly involved with the work of the Transvaal Indian Congress and all the Congress alliance. In 1959 I joined the South African Communist Party and up to today I still remain a member of that organisation.

Now in March 1960 - I am just going to go through a little bit of background so we put the whole thing in the proper context. In March 1960 I think it was, after the Sharpeville massacres, the African National Congress and the PAC were actually banned.

As a result of the banning the African National Congress was confronted with very critical decisions. Those decisions were the most important decisions. All the African National Congress, in its entire history, the

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banning meant that the African National Congress had to submit or to fight. The African National Congress took the historical decision to continue fighting for the liberation of our people.

The second decision it had to take flowed from the message of struggle. Ever since its formation in 1912, the African National Congress have conducted a peaceful and non-violent struggle. Now that it had been banned it was confronted with what to do. Do they extend the non-violent struggle to the armed struggle. After the intense debate within the ranks of the African National Congress, and of the Congress Alliance, the decision was taken to launch the armed struggle.

I wish to stress that these two historic decisions on the part of the African National Congress were decisions that have led our country to where it is today.

After its banning the military wing of the African National Congress, Umkhonto weSizwe was launched on the 16th of April 1961. Comrade Nelson Mandela ... (intervention).

MS SOOKA: Sorry, if I could just stop you there. You state that, you talked of December, just for clarity, is it April or December.

MR CHIBA: December. Oh, I said April by mistake. My apologies. It was on the 16th of December 1961 that Umkhonto weSizwe was launched and Comrade Nelson Mandela was our commander-in-chief. I was amongst the initial group of cadres, MK cadres, who was of course involved in the subsequent campaign of sabotage.

Now I think it is important to say something about our units. Each sabotage unit consisted of four members, with a unit leader, and four such units constituted a platoon.

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I think it was by mid-1960 that I was made a platoon commander, heading for such sabotage units. We were actually based in Johannesburg, and our area of operations were Vrededorp, Newtown, Fordsburg, Newclaire, Firetown. Those were the areas of our operations.

I also want to state that in carrying out our activities we were under very, very strict instructions. The first instruction was that during the course of our activities, sabotage activities we had to ensure that no loss of life occurred, civilian or otherwise. If there was a danger that there would be such a loss, our strict instructions were to suspend or postponed the planned act of sabotage.

The second instruction that we had to adhere to strictly, was that under no circumstances were we to carry any sort of arms whatsoever. That means when we carried out an act of sabotage and there was a danger of us being arrested, we were not even in a position to defend ourselves.

The third instruction was that once an act of sabotage had been carried out, we were under strict instructions not to revisit that site. So those were the three instructions that our units actually had to adhere to.

MS SOOKA: Could you tell us about the kind of targets that you would select.

MR CHIBA: Actually there were two categories of targets. The one category of targets was the question of power lines, telephone wires, substations, transformers, signal boxes. Targeting this kind of targets actually meant that the normal type of services were disrupted. But there was a second more important type of targets, and these targets

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were institutions and symbols of apartheid: pass offices, Bantu Commissioner's offices, magistrate's courts, and so on. These were the types of targets that we actually bombed, blew up.

From there I think I will go on to what had actually happened. On the 17th of April 1963, five of us were arrested. Comradie Viji Vania was a unit leader and he and his unit actually planned an act of sabotage on Railway property. Unfortunately his unit had been infiltrated by a police agent by the name of Gamat Jardien. Obviously of course he had informed his superiors about the planned act and not unknowing to Comradie Viji Vadia and his members, unit members, the place of - the site actually had been surrounded by police and they were immediately arrested.

As far as as Gamat Jardien was concerned, not to expose that he was a police agent, the special branch actually arranged it in such a way that he actually managed to escape.

MS SOOKA: If I could just take you back a little bit. Could you tell us who the other people were, besides yourself and Viji Vadia, who were also arrested, and if you could just clarify for me the date - was it 1962 or 1963?

MR CHIBA: The date actually was the 17th of April 1963, that was the date of the arrest. Those who were arrested were Comradie Viji Vania, Abdulay - not Abdulay, Inglis Naidoo, Serius Nanabay, that were members of his unit. They were arrested at the actual site of the planned act of sabotage. The other two that were arrested were Abdulay Jassat and myself. We were arrested at three am in the morning. We were arrested at home actually. Their arrest

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actually led to our arrest subsequently.

So on the 17th of April we were taken to Marshall Square. There, of course, I found Comradie Viji Vadia. I must say that I was shocked at the state he was in. He had been very badly assaulted. His ribs had been smashed. His shoulder had been broken. His face was badly bruised. Inglis Naidoo, he had been shot at the site in his upper chest. So that was the condition. From what I could gather, at that point in time, he had received no medical treatment whatsoever.

We were kept at Marshall Square the whole day and only the following morning we were actually taken to railway headquarters, because the planned act of sabotage had actually taken place on railway property.

We were all placed in a room and we were then called in by one by one for questioning. Viji - Nanabaya was called first. He came back. Inglis was called, then Viji and then Abdulay Jassat and I was called in last for questioning, just towards early evening.

When I entered the room I found approximately eight or nine White males, amongst them were Maj Brits from the Railway Police. There was Lieut Van Wyk from the special branch. There was Rooi Koos Swanepoel, also from the special branch, and as soon as I entered, those three actually left. So there were about five or six people who were actually present in the room.

They started assaulting me, punched me, kicked me and in the process my face was badly bruised. My left ear-drum had been punctured. They wanted to know who my contact was in MK. They wanted to know the next link in the chain of command. I pleaded ignorance. I told them that I didn't know anything. I told them that actually there must be some

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sort of a serious mistake that they were making on their part.

The assault must have lasted half-an-hour or so. It is very, very difficult for me to assess the passage of time under these circumstances. But what was to follow was far more serious than the assault that had taken place.

From behind someone threw a sack, a wet hessian sack over my body so that half my body was covered and I was partially strait-jacketed. I was then flung onto the floor. My shoes and socks were removed and I could feel electric wires being tied to my toes, to my fingers, my knuckles and so on.

They wanted to know who my contact was. To them that was a very crucial issue. I pleaded ignorance. I told them that I did not know. Every time I resisted answering the questions, they turned on the dynamo and of course, violent electric shocks started passing through my body. They did so every time I refused to answer. All I could do was to scream out in pain. I could only scream and scream and plead ignorance.

Again, it is very difficult for me how this entire process, how long this entire process lasted. But I must say that it could have gone on for an hour and a half or even maybe two hours.

After the electric torture was over, I was unable to walk, I collapsed. They then carried me out. They bundled me into a car, where my other comrades were, and we were then all taken back to Marshall Square.

At this point in time I think it is necessary for me to say that I was rather pleased with myself at the fact that I had not divulged any information whatsoever. I feel proud SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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of that fact. To deny the enemy the information that they so dearly wanted, was something that I felt good about.

At the same time ... (Pause) ...

MS SOOKA: You can take your time, it is okay.

MR CHIBA: Yes. At the same time I think I must say something. I had screamed out in pain, I had pleaded for mercy from an enemy, a people's enemy, I had asked them to stop torturing me. I had given them the pleasure of listening to my screams and it is something that haunts me up till today. As I repeat this here, I feel a deep sense of shame for the shortcoming. I don't think that a revolutionary should actually give the enemy the pleasure of listening to one's screams. I think I failed in that respect. I hope that you people understand that. It haunts me up until today, and I don't think that I can ever come to terms with that. Anyway ...

I think I will take a glass of water.

MS SOOKA: Take your time there. Are those ear-phones uncomfortable?

MR CHIBA: No, they are quite okay, I'm sorry, they are quite okay.

I think time is passing, I think I will move rather quickly now.

We were then brought to the magistrate. We were charged with sabotage. Our trials were separated. Comrade Viji Vania, Iglis and Abdulla Jassat actually were - their trial was separated from ours because they had been arrested on site. They were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment.

Abdulla Jassat and I were then detained; charges were withdrawn against us. We were detained under the 90 day detention law, which had just come into effect. We were

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placed in Marshall Square in solitary confinement.

At the time of - when the time came for my release, a date in August, I was approached by Lieut Van Wyk who said that they were prepared to release me, they wouldn't re-extend my detention, on condition that I did not lay charges against the police for having tortured me when I was arrested. I had to take a decision on the spot. I decided that I would agree to that condition, but upon release I would refer the matter to my organisation for guidance.

When I was released I referred the matter to my organisation and my organisation instructed me to lay charges against the Police, which I did, through one of my comrades, a relative who was an attorney.

Now after I was released, immediately after I was released, a few days later, the great escape had taken place, in which Arthur Goldreich, Harold Wolpe, Abdullah Jassat and Mosi Moola had escaped from Marshall Square. As a result of that escape, I was once again asked to go underground and I was underground for a period of about three months.

As you know, by this time, I think it is in July, that the Rivonia arrests had taken place. On the 11th of July, Comrade Kathradu just reminds me of that, on the 11th of July, Rivonia arrests had taken place, and the national high command had been smashed. There was only one survivor, and that was Comrade Wilton Mkwai whom the police were looking for very desperately.

It was during this period when I was underground that Comrade Wilton Mkwai approached me. The national high command had to be reconstituted. I was asked to serve on that body and I served on the second national high command

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until my second arrest in July 1964.

We carried out various acts of sabotage. We carried on the campaign. Of course only at this time we were now directing the campaign on a national scale. I think it was in July 1964 that while I was once again arrested.

Among others who were arrested at this stage, were Babela Saloojee, Paul Joseph, Mac Maharaj, Steve Naidoo and Amien Kadji.

I was arrested at home. I think it was on a Monday morning and the person who arrested me was Maj Brits from the Railway Police. I tried to escape from the back but was unsuccessful, because the back was also blocked off. I was taken to Greys Building, on the 6th or 7th floor.

I entered the room. I found, amongst others, Lieut Van Wyk and Rooi Koos Swanepoel. I was assured that unlike the previous time they won't even lay a finger on me. What they did was, they took a foolscap sheet of paper, A4 size, they put it on the floor and they asked me to stand on that. They said that I was not allowed to move off from that sheet of paper.

I tried to work out what their strategy was. Previously when I was arrested they had assaulted me very badly. They had tortured me with electric shocks and they had - I did not answer any questions. This time the idea was that I should be kept standing for many, many hours without sleep. I stood there from about nine o'clock on Monday morning until Wednesday early in the evening, late in the afternoon. That was a period of approximately 58 to 60 hours without sleep.

Fortunately, once again, I did not answer any questions. But what they really wanted to know, was where

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was Wilton Mkwai. Comrade Wilton Mkwai who was on the first national high command. They wanted him very badly.

I was then booked in at the Langlaagte police station under the 90 day detention law. That period was once again extended, during which period Comrade Wilton Mkwai had been arrested and we were then transferred to Pretoria Central in Pretoria Central Prison.

It was here that I had heard that Comrade Babela Salooji had been killed. ... (Pause) ...

Anyway, we were charged. We appeared in the Rand Supreme Court, five of us, Comrade Wilton Mkwai accused No 1, Dave Kitching accused No 2, myself accused No 3, John Matthews accused No 4 and Comrade Mac Maharaj - currently the Minister of Transport - accused No 5.

The trial was described as little Rivonia. We were found guilty of sabotage. We were found guilty on various counts of sabotage. Actually 58 counts of sabotage and we were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment.

Comrade Wilton Mkwai was sent to life imprisonment, Dave to 20 years, myself 18 years, John Matthews 15 years and Comrade Mac Maharaj to 12 years.

We were taken to the local prison and from there Comrade Mac Maharaj and myself were taken to Robben Island. I served my sentence, my 18 years sentence on Robben Island.

I was released in December 1982. I have been involved ... (END OF TAPE 1 - SIDE A).

... I was once again detained during the state of emergency. I was in detention for seven and a half months, during which time I must stress that I was neither tortured nor assaulted. I came out in 1986 - there was a twilight period between the two states of emergency and the

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leadership of the United Democratic Front, who instructed me once again to go underground. I went underground and emerged in January 1987 to try to lead a normal life.

That actually is my brief story. Thank you very much.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much. I am just going to take you back to a few issues, just for clarity. We have had the evidence of Abdulla Jassat, and he was quite detailed, in fact, about his own torture. He detailed the question the wet bag treatment and it seems that that was quite common. It was done to you as well.

But he also described a particular form of torture where you were held by two policemen and dropped by the one standing in front of a window and then the other person grabbed the other leg. For me it seems that it would point to the fact of how a number of people were killed, in falling from different floors.

I wonder with you, was that done to you as well?

MR CHIBA: Thank you. No, that was not done to me. I know that Comrade Abdulla Jassat was very, very severely tortured. It had been done to him. I wasn't an eye witness to that, but that he described to me, he described that to me later. But I want to state this, that he was so severely tortured that up to today he suffers from epileptic fits, if I remember correctly, and he is unable to lead a normal life. I have witnessed, I have seen that myself.

MS SOOKA: The other issue which you spoke about and I think you say you feel a deep sense of shame. It is a very difficult issue to deal with, because quite frankly, I think the first instruction for a cadre is that he doesn't disclose the information that is being sought from him. You have succeeded in doing that. One wonders at the courage

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that you portray here and yet, you say you still live with a sense of shame. I think that all of us have a great admiration, in fact, for the fact that through all of this you have emerged with your own humanity and unscathed. That was the one point that I wanted to make.

You also talk in your evidence about being betrayed, and the fact that someone turned State witness against you. This is at the time when the second high command of Umkhonto was established. Could you tell us who the person was.

MR CHIBA: The person, he was a member of the second national high command, his name is Lionel Gay. I think it was in a moment of weakness that he turned State witness. We had directed many a campaign while we were together as colleagues on the second national high command. It is unfortunate that he did so. Had he not given State evidence, had he not turned State witness, it is possible that the five of us who were subsequently found guilty and sentenced, might not have been found guilty. Actually we were found guilty and collectively, between the five of us, we served between 85 and 90 years in prison.

I want to say this, however, that after the unbanning of the African National Congress in February 1990, he did return to South Africa for a brief spell. He requested that I should meet him, which I did. He asked my forgiveness. He said he had made a serious mistake. He asked my forgiveness and I had no hesitation whatsoever in forgiving him. That's what I would like to say.

MS SOOKA: It is also important for the Commission to document the kind of torture that took place. It is very important for our records. Particularly in the different periods during our history, because there was a definite

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change after a certain period. But you talk about the Stockholm Syndrome, and I would be grateful if you could just deal with that briefly.

MR CHIBA: What actually happens is that there are normally two kinds of, two categories of police. The one who appeared to be soft and kind. They offer during interrogation they offer you sweets, they offer you comfort, cooldrinks, they offer you snacks, they are soft-spoken and so on. The other category of policemen who interrogate one are the rough, aggressive types, they are the threatening type. They are the types of people who do not hesitate to lay a finger on you, unlike the first category.

Now they alternate. When they interrogate you they alternate. They bring the so-called softer ones and then afterwards they bring in the second category of interrogators.

Now during this process the person who is actually interrogated find some sort of an affinity, a sense of protection, a sense of comfort with the softer ones. It is in this period that the people break down and give information. I think this is called, I am not too sure, I think it is called the Stockholm Syndrome. When I was questioned the second time, this is what actually happened. And amongst the aggressive type was a person called Lieut Victor - I believe he is now a general. His name is Victor, at that stage. Thank you.

MS SOOKA: One of the tasks of the Commission is also to look at the differing roles, that people like magistrates and district surgeons played in the whole system. You mention that the first time when you were charged with sabotage, one of the complaints that was raised at your

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trial, was the way you were treated and tortured while you were in custody. Could you tell us about whether the district surgeon examined you, whether any attempt was made to make sure that the police did not do that again. What was the intervention that the magistrate made once he know of the facts?

MR CHIBA: When we appeared in court, the matter was brought to the attention of the magistrate. I can't, I must honestly say that I can't actually recall the magistrate doing anything about it. As far as the doctors are concerned, after - immediately after our rest, there is a 48 hour period, during which one is held in communicado, and it was during this period that we are actually tortured, so that the information comes out. But once that period is over, you are in contact with your lawyers, your friends, your family and so on, so they can't actually do anything about it. But our doctors then examined us. We were also examined by the district surgeon. In my particular case what they did find was that my left ear had been punctured. I was bleeding and there were burn marks on my toes, my fingers and on my knuckles, burn marks as a result of the electric shocks.

One other thing I omitted to mention to you was that while they were turning the dynamo and the electric shocks were passing through my body very violently, they actually also poured water on the wires. Once you pour water - water I think, is a very good conductor of electricity, and once you pour water the intensity of the electric shocks increase dramatically. I think that's what you wanted to know. Thank you.

MS SOOKA: Just one more question. You say that during the

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twilight period, 1986 to 1987, you went ...

MR CHIBA: Ja, please continue, before I come in.

MS SOOKA: Okay. During that period you again went underground. Will you just tell us very briefly what you did during that period?

MR CHIBA: The twilight period I am referring to, is the twilight period of three months between the first state of emergency - I am not talking about 1960 now, there was another state of emergency, I am talking about 1985 emergency and the 1986 emergency. We were requested by the leadership of the UDF to go underground, not to get caught and do whatever activities, promote the aims and objectives of the United Democratic Front. At that stage I was not, and I must stress this, I was not involved in any type of sabotage activities. It was the normal legal type of work.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much. Yes?

MR CHIBA: I would like to be afforded the opportunity of saying one or two things, all right?

MS SOOKA: I am actually going to get to that.

MR CHIBA: Okay, fine.

MS SOOKA: Part of of our function of course, is to recommend to Government, interventions which can be made at institutional levels or recommendations generally around the question of preventing human rights violations taking place again. If you could, while you discuss the points you want to make, if you could allude briefly to any such recommendation you yourself would like to make in that regard.

MR CHIBA: Okay. I think there is one or two things that I need to say. I deeply appreciate the fact that I have been given this opportunity. I have pointed that out before. But SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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for myself, personally, I really do not want the Commission to do anything for me. I got politically involved in the knowledge that the battle was going to be a tough one, it is going to be a hard, long struggle with many sacrifices along the way. I did so on the understanding that there would be no reward, no remuneration, no recognition. It is on this basis that I don't want the Commission to do anything for me personally.

But having said that, I think I must stress that the Commission has a very important function to do, to ensure that the perpetrators who carried out so many acts of torture, who are guilty of murdering, killing our people, are actually brough to justice. I think that it is the responsibility of the Truth Commission to ensure that they are brought to justice. But when I say they are brought to justice, I actually mean that their deeds must be known publicly, must be made public. They must acknowledge that there were gross violations of human rights. They must acknowledge that it was incorrect and they must admit that this was done. It is only if they do so, can they be forgiven and if only they do so can there be true national reconciliation. I think the Commission has an important role to play in this respect.

I also want the Commission to correct one or two misperceptions. We who were arrested and detained, we who were tortured and imprisoned, are often viewed by our people as heroes and heroines. I think this is understandable, but the real heroes and heroines are our people, are those who remained behind to keep the home fires burning. The real heroes and heroines of our people are those upon whose shoulders fell the heavy responsibility of ensuring that the SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

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struggle continued, and that they had brought the struggle to a successful conclusion. I think you must give true recognition to that fact. I am sure that the Commission can correct that perception. That is all that I have to say.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much. You have named a number of perpetrators who have been mentioned in a number of people's statements. Certainly, the Commission has taken note of that. I would, however, like to stress that in terms of amnesty and in terms of human rights violations, the human rights violations committee's job is to investigate the gross human rights violations that took place, and it is within that ambit that we can bring people forward.

However, the process of amnesty is a voluntary one, and we do not go out and seek people to come forward to apply for amnesty. So I think we must just keep that issue in mind. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chiba, if you could just wait one moment while I just ask if Hlengiwe has any questions.

MS MKHIZE: Yes, I have. Thank you very much, Mr Chiba. I will supplement some of the questions that have been raised by a leading Commission, Yasmin Sooka.

My first question to you is around what since to - hold back your healing. You have made a statement and you kept on emphasising that you still feel bad that you screamed, and asked for mercy from your enemies.

I just wanted to know from you, as to what other options were there, what else, when you look back, you think you could have done under the circumstances.

MR CHIBA: I consider myself to be a revolutionary and I think that a revolutionary ought not to give his enemies the pleasure they derive from one's suffering. I think that it

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was my job to ensure that just as I had denied them the pleasure of the information that they wanted, so once again I should have denied them the pleasure of listening to my screams. I think that is what I should have done. I failed to do that, it is a shortcoming, it is a failure, it haunts me. I can't come to terms with it. That's about all I can say.

MS MKHIZE: A related question. Based on your evidence, I should think you are one of the those people who will assist this Commission in terms of getting a clear picture of the practice of torture as a human rights violation in this country. I just want to know from you whether you think the methods you utilised, they got severe over the years, because historically you come, you have an experience of your rights being violated as far back as the Sixties. We have had people coming with the same phenomenon who were tortured in the Eighties. In your own judgment, when you look back now, do you think their methods utilised got worse or severe over the years, or they were milder?

MR CHIBA: I don't think that I am in a position to comment on that. I have no experience whatsoever of the methods of torture that were employed during the Seventies and the Eighties, except to say that people were very, very vicious. In the earlier years the number of people who actually died and killed at the hands of the special branch, were far fewer in number than what had actually happened during the late Seventies and the early Eighties, and during the Eighties one can only assume that they actually resorted to actually killing people, many of them disappeared from the face of the earth. I don't think I can say anything further than that.

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MS MKHIZE: Thank you. My third question relates to also the after effects of torture. We have had witnesses over the past two days, one witness in particular, emphasising that in this country we need facilities for dealing with the after-effects of trauma. Would you agree to that, that if there was such a facility you would say you have got scars that need to be looked at?

MR CHIBA: No, I think I would agree, I would go along with that.

MS MKHIZE: Just one last question which relates to policy. I have been really tasked by you, our experiences of torture, but I will ask you this question. If you are not comfortable to respond to it, please say so, I would understand.

For us as a Commission, since we have started, we have had people who were exposed to extreme forms of torture, as you have been saying, but also have heard another category of people who are saying they have been tortured by people who had left this country, having been tortured. People are saying they were tortured outside in the ANC camps. So we have been struggling with that, in the sense that, how can we assist in policy formulation to make sure that these things never happen again. So while one will think that people who transfer their experiences and make sure that never - those things are never done to other people again, is like history tells us that people forget and repeat the same thing to others. So would you assist us, just giving us your own sort of ideas, as to how do we make what needs to be done, to make sure that such practices are not repeated.

MR CHIBA: I really don't know how to answer the question,

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except to say that gross human violations of human rights, no matter where they occur or who are the perpetrators, should never happen at all. I think that the word of the truth, the TRC here is of such importance that it can ensure that such gross human rights violations never occur, irrespective of where it comes from, irrespective whether it is within this country or outside this country, but it should never happen again. I think that "never again" must be the slogan of a new human rights culture in this country.

MS MKHIZE: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Hlengiwe. If I can just ask two brief questions in conclusion. I would like to take you back to the two categories you mentioned of the targets which you chose, which were pylons and then the Government facilities.

Could you explain why that was and why possibly the targets changed in later years?

MR CHIBA: Could you just clarity the question, how do you mean the targets changed in later years?

CHAIRPERSON: Between hard targets and soft targets, if you like, between targets which obviously were not going to affect people and in later years, targets were chosen which did affect people.

MR CHIBA: Well, if you are, I think you are referring to the subsequent loss of life, civilian life, as a result of acts of bombs or whatever the case may be. Yes, I think it is important to state one thing. It was not the policy of the African National Congress to deliberately select soft targets and so that it led to the loss of civilian life. It was not the policy. However, one cannot ignore the fact that in a vast organisation like the African National Congress, you find sometimes elements who are actually

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undisciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR CHIBA: So what I can say here, that was very, very unfortunate. I myself am not happy with that and those people, the undisciplined elements have to be dealt with, they need to be dealt with. But it is not the policy and it was not the policy of the African National Congress. Sometimes accidents do take place but I want to stress it was certainly not the policy of the African National Congress. Of course at that stage, people like Comrade Kathrada and myself were in prison, so we can't say you know, we don't know all the facts. But that's what we came to learn at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. My second question is related to the whole question of the interrogation methods which were used by the security police and we have seen the changes. You are now in a position of authority in Government. We as a Commission need to make recommendations on the basis of what we hear. Could you now in the light of your own experiences give us some guidance in terms of what we should recommend should be laid down for governance of the police, for instance, of the security forces, how they can treat people. Or put it crudely, didn't you expect to be treated in quite thew ay that you were? You were fighting the enemy at that stage. How do you expect the police to function now.

MR CHIBA: I think we are living, we are actually in a different set-up now. We have a democratic South Africa, where human rights, a culture of human rights has to develop and it is being developed. We respect the rights of each and every individual and things like torture and violations

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of human rights should never occur. And I really, I can't say what actual mechanisms can be put in place, but certainly as far as the police are concerned and those who are in authority are concerned, it must be made absolutely clear that the new dispensation will not tolerate violations of human rights under any circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. In thanking you for coming today and expressing our appreciation for that, in the way that you have told your story.

I would like just very briefly to tell a short story about you, which I think puts in context the question of who are the heroes, and just tell that. When I was actually in Pretoria local prison myself, I was joined by a friend, Fred Phago, who is now unfortunately dead, who told the story about his being in detention. I think it was in Jeppe, die "strafstasie", being in detention for two or three weeks in total isolation. He felt he was going out of his mind. He said suddenly this person was thrown into a cell next to him. He never saw the person, he never actually met them, but he learnt his name, because this person taught him through very thick walls - and I think using a shoe brush - taught him the Morse Code, and through teaching him the Morse Code brought him back to sanity, brought him back into himself. In the process of that he learnt that this person's name was Chiba. Fred would talk for hours about Chiba. I would just like to remind you of that and thank you for that. Thanks very much indeed.

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