CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, at this stage Chairperson I will call Oupa Lerato Kgotlhe. Chairperson, applicant will give evidence Sesotho.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes we have an interpreter to assist.
LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Kgotlhe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes I do.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed and read the affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just give us a minute, we just want to make sure that we are actually tuned in properly to the translation.
INTERPRETER: Channel 2 is English. Am I coming through?
CHAIRPERSON: I haven't actually heard the translation of the testimony previously so I wonder if you just don't want to repeat, I'm sorry. Wouldn't you just repeat it Mr Mbandazayo so that we can just make sure that we are all tuned in properly here?
INTERPRETER: Is English coming through?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Kgotlhe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes I do.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed and read the affidavit.
"I, the undersigned ...[intervention]
INTERPRETER: It seems there's still a problem.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, we've got to interrupt you again, Mr Mbandazayo. We just want to see, there might be a problem.
INTERPRETER: Check, one, two, three, channel English.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you, we've got that. Alright, you go ahead Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
"I, the undersigned, Oupa Lerato Kgotlhe, do hereby make an oath and say that I'm the applicant in the above matter having submitted my application whilst being held at Grootvlei maximum prison, Bloemfontein. The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge unless the context indicates otherwise. I was born in 1971 at Hoopstad, Free State Province. I grew up in Wesselsbron where I did my primary education up to Standard 6 in 1984. In 1985 my family moved to Botshabelo near Thaba Nchu where I left school at Standard 8 due to financial problems. I joined PAC through Azania 1986. In 1990 I left the country to Zimbabwe to Tanzania where I joined Apla and did my military training. I came back from Tanzania at the end of 1990 and I was posted at the PAC headquarters under the command of comrade Inox Zulu and the late Jan Shoba. Late in 1991 I was deployed in the Free State Province. I was involved in about seven operations and I have applied for amnesty in all of them. I confirm that I commanded the unit which split from Pila Dolo's unit that attacked houses that belonged to policemen and security personnel in the South African Lesotho borders on the 10th December 1992. I confirm that I went with Jabu to the other house, I was armed with R4 rifle and hand grenade and Jabu was armed with an Uzi and Molotovs. We went to the house which was plus four houses from the one Pila Dolo's unit attacked the same night. I broke the window with the rifle butt and Jabu threw Molotovs and also threw a grenade and also fired shots. Thereafter we retreated and joined the other unit which was commanded by comrade Dolo. The affidavit of comrade Dolo has been read to me. I understand the contents and I confirm it insofar as it relates to me and specifically request that same be incorporated in this affidavit. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the Ficksburg operation and I accordingly humbly request that my application for amnesty be granted."
Chairperson, now I would ask Mr Kgotlhe then just to give clarity on certain issues.
Mr Kgotlhe, Mr Dolo has testified before this Committee and told the Committee that he was called by you from Sterkspruit to assist him. Can you in your own words give full picture to the Committee as to what actually happened, how did you come to the decision that these houses should be attacked?
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, just before you proceed, just for the record could we just get clarity on this? Mr Kgotlhe, are you also known as Mtate?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes you can carry on?
MR KGOTLHE: What I can say is that when this incident happened in Ficksburg I needed comrade Dolo's help because he had the knowledge and some resources because we wanted to carry out some operations on our side in Lesotho.
The instruction was that we should carry out more operations and I had the duty to ensure that they all succeeded. I went to Sterkspruit and we discussed this with Dolo that I received an instruction that we should carry out some instructions on my side and I really needed his help to come and help in my unit. We also discussed the importance of our operations and the reasons why we had to attack that area, that is those houses that is those houses that we ended up attacking.
From the information that I got it was clear that this area and these houses were occupied by the members of the SADF and the South African police. I also indicated to him that I ensured and reconnoitred the place and I also interacted with the people who were working there, domestic workers and I engaged with them in discussions to get information from them as to whether those places were occupied by the members of the regime. That is how I ended up making a decision that we have to attack this place because they were occupied by the security personnel. Those were the reasons why I needed his help and he agreed and he came to my side to give us help.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee why specifically the house at number 143, why did you have to attack that house, specific house?
MR KGOTLHE: Like I've already said, I got information that some of the houses belonged to the security personnel so we took a general decision that if some houses were occupied by the members of the police and the defence force, so our starting point will be to attack all the houses. We knew that it may also happen that some houses were not owned by the South African Police but our general belief was that because most of them were occupied by the police and defence personnel we have to attack all the houses. So it just happened that this house it be one of those houses that we ended up attacking. There were also other houses which were not attacked that day.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Yes thank you Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Kgotlhe, you state that you reconnoitred the area yourself, is that correct?
MR KGOTLHE: That is correct.
MS PATEL: When was this done?
MR KGOTLHE: This was not the first operation in Ficksburg, it was our second operation. When we started reconnoitring the place during our first operation we got information concerning our second attack. It was just a continuous thing. I cannot say specifically how long it took me to reconnoitre the place, it took me some months.
MS PATEL: Mr Dolo said to us that the area - his information from you was that the place had been reconnoitred the previous week. What is your comment on that?
MR KGOTLHE: That is the information that he got from me and there was a rule that we have to have a certain information. So the information that I had it was not necessary for him to have all information that I had so this is some of the information that I gave him, I didn't give him all the information, that is the golden rule as members of Apla.
MS PATEL: No, Mr Kgotlhe, my question to you was very specific. I sought clarity on Mr Dolo's evidence to us here this morning that he had received information from you that the place had been reconnoitred the previous week. Is that correct or not? I'm just asking for clarity on that specific point not on all the other information that you did or didn't give him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I would like to - my learned colleague at least to specify what does it mean the previous week because Mr Dolo also indicated that he went there to Lesotho two weeks before the attack. Which previous week is she referring to?
MR KGOTLHE: Mr Dolo referred to the week prior to the attack.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson exactly, that's what I'm trying to get at because he said he does not know whether it was reconnoitred but he was always with the two others. Mr Kgotlhe kept on going and coming, he does not know whether he was making reconnaissance, that's what he told the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I must just now make sure of that, of that detail. Ms Patel, was it in cross-examination that he mentioned that it was reconnoitred the previous week, the week before the attack?
MS PATEL: Yes it was Honourable Chairperson. I think that, I mean I haven't made notes while I was cross-examining but I think I asked him what - whether he in fact had reconnoitred the area that evening and he said no the place had been reconnoitred the previous week and that's what he was told.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no you see my recollection was that he had testified that he had understood that the reconnoitring was done days before the attack and I've just consulted the notes under cross-examination and that confirmed that that was the evidence. My colleagues on the panel have the same note of his testimony so it seems as if he was referring to some days before the attack so perhaps you can put it in that sort of more accurate fashion?
MS PATEL: You heard what was said, Mr Dolo testified that the place was reconnoitred days before the attack, some days before the attack. Can you confirm whether this is in fact correct?
MR KGOTLHE: I will agree with him, that is when he had already left Sterkspruit when he was in Lesotho already, then I will agree with him.
MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us how many days before the attack the place was reconnoitred?
MR KGOTLHE: Because I was based in Lesotho my reconnaissance was always continuous and I always obtained information. I have already stated that it could have been months, one month or two months because my reconnaissance was being continued then. When he arrived here we already left with some days before the operation and that was then I managed to orientate him about the area and give him some information. What he said does not contradict what happened, he is right. It took us days when he was with us but I cannot specifically say how many days we understood reconnaissance.
MS PATEL: Okay, given that your, as you say your reconnaissance was ongoing and that amongst your sources were the domestics who had been working in that area. Can you tell whether you would have spoken to your sources a week before the attack had taken place?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes I can say it was a week before the operation that I had discussions with some of the workers to verify the information that I already had but that was not the first time that I had discussions with them, that I've already stated.
MS PATEL: And can you say whether the workers that you had spoken to had come from the home of Mrs Pienaar, the home that was in fact attacked?
MR KGOTLHE: Well I cannot say that.
MS PATEL: Sorry, I don't understand your answer, are you saying that you did not speak to anybody from her home or you did or you can't remember, which is it?
MR KGOTLHE: My interest was not confined to that specific house, my interest was in the whole area, it was occupied by the police so I did not have a specific interest in that particular house but that area as a whole, that was where we were focusing our attention.
MS PATEL: Can you tell us how many policemen or members of the security force were living in that section of the street?
MR KGOTLHE: I have already explained that if not all the houses were occupied by the police it is unfortunate that we ended up attacking a house which was not occupied by the police. But I cannot specifically mention the number of houses which were occupied by them because that was not important to us. What was important to us was to carry out the attack like we did. The main reason again why I say the most important thing was an attack was that our understanding was that all the White people, including the police, took part in oppressing the Black people. Our interest was not on Mr Pienaar or Mrs Pienaar or Van der Merwe, all the White people were oppressing the Black people. If it happened that at the end a house that was attacked did not belong to a policeman or a soldier still that house falls under our programme because when we participated in our struggle we never heard who was smiling with us or who loved us or we all treated White people as participants in oppression.
MS PATEL: So, given your explanation to us now, it doesn't really matter whether there were in fact members of the security force living in that area or in that specific street or not, the fact remains that they were White people and so they were legitimate targets in terms of your organisation's policy, is that what you're saying to us Sir?
MR KGOTLHE: I will explain this that it is known that that was the policy of Apla but concerning this operation what drew our interest was the fact that that area was occupied by the police but we knew that we were oppressed by the Whites, that was not a secret, everybody knew about that.
MS PATEL: Okay, if you're saying that you knew that your specific reason for going to that area was because there were police living in the area then at least you must be able to tell us, Sir, in terms of your reconnaissance that was carrying on for at least two months before the incident, you should be able to tell us how many policemen were living in that street?
MR KGOTLHE: I will repeat again and say that the number was not important to us, we never get how many people lived in that street, that's the answer that I give you.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, can I just come in here? To get more clarity on this, Mr Kgotlhe, in your discussions with these people who were giving you the information that some of the houses were occupied by members of the security forces, did you bother to find out which particular houses were not occupied by such members of the security forces and which others on the one hand were in fact so occupied, did you try to draw a distinction between the two?
MR KGOTLHE: It may be possible that the house was attacked was occupied by the police, even the neighbour. I will give an example. After this attack on this particular house there was a return fire from that house and this can be testified to by this woman and they used military hardware which they called the ...(indistinct). Those are military weapons, they're only used by the soldiers and the police. Such weapons were used in returning the fire. What I want to say is that this is an indication that when we went there we had the right information. The weapon that was used can either be R1 or R4 unless this woman herself used that weapon then that would be a different story.
Another thing that I want to mention is that this house that was attacked could have been used by the police or they never could have been used by the police or the soldiers.
ADV SANDI: If there was no such information that some of the houses were occupied by members of the security personnel, would you still have launched such an attack in the area?
MR KGOTLHE: We will continue with our attack because oppression was also continuing.
ADV SANDI: Why do you say you were particularly attracted by this information that some houses in the area were occupied by members of the security forces?
MR KGOTLHE: They were the people on the front line, they were on the front line of the defence and naturally they had the interest that we should find against them because they were the people on the front line of the defence of that particular regime. The other thing was that we wanted to get through certain areas into the country so that we could claim a certain area and at the end we could say that those areas were liberated so their presence was disturbing to us because they were there to ensure that they become the obstacle to liberation. That is the reason why we ended up attacking such places.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Kgotlhe, do I understand you correctly that - I'm just trying to make sense of why you did what you did and the way that you did it that because that was the first row of houses there, you assumed that whoever occupied those houses was security branch or members of security branch would be living in those houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't that the position of Mr Dolo, is his position not that they reconnoitred or discussed with the servants to find out, isn't that the basis for his conclusion?
MS PATEL: But he also vacillates, Honourable Chairperson, between reconnoitring on the one hand and saying on the other hand that it really didn't matter?
CHAIRPERSON: Well that seems to be a more broader argument on the policy of Apla but he seemed to also say that what formed the basis of this particular attack was the information that there were security force members occupying some of the houses in that particular area, that's how I understood the evidence.
MS PATEL: Let me at least ascertain - let me put it to you simply once again, I've asked you this question before, let me ask it to you again. From your reconnoitring from your speaking to the workers in the area, can you at least give us an indication as to how many people in that street were members of the security forces?
MR KGOTLHE: I think I've already answered that question.
MS PATEL: Well then answer it again please. It's a very specific question, it requires a specific answer, that's all I want, is a specific answer, Sir. I don't want to know from you whether it mattered or not how many people there are, I want to know from you whether you knew how many members of the security branch lived in that street before you attacked?
MR KGOTLHE: No, we did not know.
MS PATEL: So then how do you know if in fact members of the security branch were living in that street if you can't tell us how many there were?
ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel I don't that security branch it has a very specific meaning, security personnel.
MS PATEL: That's what I meant, security personnel.
MR KGOTLHE: How do you reconcile the fact that we were shot at with an automatic rifle with what you are asking?
MS PATEL: With respect, Sir, I don't want to argue with you but whether you were in fact shot at or not is something that occurred either doing or after the attack according to your version, that is not conceded. I'm still dealing with the information that you had at your disposal prior to the attack so my question to you again is how did you know that in fact anybody in that area who stayed in that street was a member of the security forces?
ADV SANDI: Sorry, I did not understand that to be his evidence, are you saying to him, are you asking him how did he know that anybody who stays in that street was a member of the security forces?
MS PATEL: Yes and I asked him that question specifically because he wasn't able to tell us how many members in that street were in fact members of the security force.
ADV SANDI: I thought he had said the information at his disposal was that some of the residents of that area were members of the security forces. Now I understand you're trying to find out from him how many of such people who were members of the security forces?
MS PATEL: His response to how many was in fact that he did not know. My question now is how does he know at all that anyone in that street who resided in that street was a member of the security forces. It goes to the question, Honourable Committee Member, of what reconnoitring if any was in fact done before the operation was launched?
MR KGOTLHE: I don't understand your question because now you ask me how I found out that those houses were occupied by the security police and at the same time you talk about the reconnaissance. I repeating that again, we did do the reconnaissance and you also agree with me and then again you come back, you ask me how I got that information. Now I become confused because I don't know how to answer you now because you also confirm that we did undertake reconnaissance.
So information we're talking about was the reconnaissance, yes. The only way you get information is through reconnaissance.
ADV SANDI: Yes but my understanding of this question is were you able to confirm what had been said to you by these people that some of the houses in that area were occupied by members of the security forces? Is that the question Ms Patel?
CHAIRPERSON: Well that is now my question, in other words from your reconnoitring, could you confirm when you reconnoitred the area could you see that there were army personnel and police and people in the area, in other words did your reconnoitring confirm the information that this area was occupied by some members of the security forces?
MR KGOTLHE: Let me just this way to say security personnel because in those days the army and the police were one thing. From the reconnaissance that I undertook it happened that during lunch-times I would see that some inhabitants of that area of people who were always armed with pistols and then from there it confirmed the information that I got but because I could see the people who were armed with pistols, they were always armed.
ADV SANDI: Were these people wearing any uniform Mr Kgotlhe?
MR KGOTLHE: No they were not wearing uniforms but what I know the special branch did not wear uniforms.
MS PATEL: For the record Honourable Chairperson, my instructions are to confirm that in fact Mr Roos did in fact wear a pistol and that he was dressed in normal civilian clothing and not in uniform.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Roos?
MS PATEL: Mrs Pienaar's deceased husband.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the late husband a member of the security forces?
MS PATEL: No he wasn't Honourable Chairperson, he was in fact in charge of the mortuary. Whilst a policeman he had been involved in a serious accident two years prior to the incident and was merely involved in administrative duties.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so he was boarded?
MS PATEL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Put on light duties because of his injury?
MS PATEL: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: Okay. Mr Kgotlhe, there's just something I've been asked to clarify with you, did you have a map of the house that was attacked?
MR KGOTLHE: We did not.
MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us on the evening of the attack why you chose that specific house?
MR KGOTLHE: Because it was in the area that we were supposed to attack. What I can say is that we could not attack all the houses there. We did not attack that house because it belonged to Mr Pienaar, we only attacked it because it was in an area that we identified as our target.
MS PATEL: Okay. Can you tell us who threw the hand grenade into the children's bedroom which was - let me just confirm, give me a moment please, thank you.
The children's bedroom was in fact the first point of the attack. Can you tell us who threw the hand grenade into the children's room?
MR KGOTLHE: It's myself.
MS PATEL: Okay did you know whether anybody was in that room or not?
MR KGOTLHE: I did not.
MS PATEL: Okay. Do you know who threw the petrol bombs into the living room, what was known as the living room of the house?
MR KGOTLHE: It was Jabu.
MS PATEL: Okay, now did you have a Jabu in your unit as well as Mr Dolo in his unit because if I recall correctly, Mr Dolo had said that he was with Roger and Jabu when they were at the third house that he referred to that they attacked. Now which Jabu are you referring to, is it the same person?
MR KGOTLHE: What Mr Dolo said was that we were four members in this unit and then we split into two so Mr Dolo went with Roger and then I went the other way with Jabu.
MS PATEL: I'd like to put to you that Mrs Pienaar who was in the house that evening denies that she or anybody else from that house that fired on you and Jabu? What is your comment on that? Sorry is there a problem with your headset? No?
MR KGOTLHE: No, I understand your question well. What I can say is that what is important that we were shot at and he's aware of that, I'm hundred percent sure about that, that we were shot at. She is also aware that sky elements were used and they were aimed at us. Maybe when she says that she did not fire, maybe she can tell this Honourable Committee about the information regarding the person who shot at us. I believe that I came here to tell the truth and I think she also came here to tell us the truth. She can tell this Committee who shot at us, if those shots were not coming from her house.
MS PATEL: In your evidence earlier on, I speak under correction Honourable Chairperson, was your evidence not that you fired at from that specific house?
CHAIRPERSON: No I think it was, if I understood it correctly, it was in that - let's put it this way close, I think the word that was used was close to the house.
MS PATEL: I'd also like to put it to you, Sir, that if you had reconnoitred the area on an ongoing basis and until at least a week beforehand as you had said, and if your sources could be relied on, you would have been informed, Sir, that Mr Roos who was living in that house had in fact died a week before this attack?
MR KGOTLHE: I will explain this, concerning the information that we received, there were not contracted to Apla, they were not members of Apla, I used our agents but because I wanted information and there are many ways of getting information. You may get it directly, you may also get it indirectly so they were doing that unaware that they are providing vital information which may be of use to me as an Apla member or Apla in general so I am trying here to dispel the belief that I once during the course of this hearing said they were reliable informants or whatever. I only indicated here that I provoked them verbally, I used to talk with them and during the course of talking I came to get the information as I have said here. Thank you.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, grant me a moment please? Honourable Chairperson, there's just two aspects, the one is was the home reconnoitred that specific evening of the attack by yourself.
MR KGOTLHE: Before or after that?
MS PATEL: No before the attack did you reconnoitre the house that evening, the evening of the attack?
MR KGOTLHE: It was not necessary for us to reconnoitre that house specifically.
MS PATEL: Can you tell us how long before you attacked the house did you arrive at the house?
MR KGOTLHE: I cannot be sure about the time but it can be between thirty to sixty minutes that can be the time that we spent before the attack. We were not reconnoitring, just observing the movements of the people who were staying in that area but we were on the other side of the road. I'm not sure about the time, it can be between thirty to sixty minutes.
MS PATEL: Did you by any chance see that there were other people at the house that evening about an hour before the attack and that people were coming and going from that house that evening?
MR KGOTLHE: No, I don't remember seeing other person coming out or going into that house.
MS PATEL: Alright. Then just one final thing. Did you intend to kill the occupants of that house, was that your intention when you went there? What was your intention, to merely burn the place or was it to kill the people or both, specifically what was it?
MR KGOTLHE: The same as asking me whether I was there to kill or I must say in any way killings were possible and of course injuring peoples were a possibility too but in an event of course I did expect some killings, and unfortunately there were none.
MS PATEL: Did you say unfortunately there were none? Yes it is in fact unfortunate for you because Mrs Pienaar says as she was trying to flee the house through the back with her two children that even after the grenade was thrown, the petrol bombs were thrown and shots were fired at the house, they were in fact also shot at once they were trying to escape from the house and managed to get into the neighbour's premises. Thank you, Sir, I have no further questions for you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mrs Pienaar is there anything further which you wish to add?
MRS PIENAAR: Not at this stage, I'll get a chance when I give evidence later of what happened, thank you.
ADV BOSMAN: Yes just two questions. The rooms, on what basis did you decide which rooms to attack?
MR KGOTLHE: There was no specific pattern in identifying the rooms that we were going to attack, it just happened that I threw it in that front room and the Molotovs were also thrown in other rooms, it just happened when we arrived, we never had any pattern or a plan in that we made beforehand.
ADV BOSMAN: And then just clarification on the role of Mr Dolo, what exactly was his role to be when you arrived at this house where you attacked?
MR KGOTLHE: They were giving us a cover up in other words they were our security. They were also helping us with observations as we undertaking the attack they will observe what is happening on the neighbourhood. If there was something happening from the neighbourhood then they will respond to that.
MR KGOTLHE: And when they fired was that in response to anything in particular, can you say or can't you say?
MR KGOTLHE: May you please repeat the question?
ADV BOSMAN: At the time when Mr Dolo and Roger when they fired, there was evidence that they fired shots or that they threw a grenade from the bridge, was that in response to something, can you say?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.
ADV BOSMAN: What was it?
MR KGOTLHE: Do you mean the action from the residents side or from Dolo's side? I'll explain it in this way. A sky element was used first from the house next door, I'm not sure as to whether it's the second house or the third house from the house attacked. After the sky was eliminated then they started shooting towards our direction. At the time we were following comrade Dolo and Roger because they were in front. Up to the point where we caught up with them, at the time they were responding to the reaction, that is returning fire from the direction where the shots came from up to the point where we crossed the road, that is on the bridge. That is where we started shooting towards the direction of the - the reaction towards the houses. He shot and then he shot again with a rifle grenade and then it exploded. It either exploded on the second house from the house which we attacked with a grenade, a rifle grenade hit there then the other rifle grenade which I launched it did not explode. I understood that the police found that unexploded grenade.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: Mr Kgotlhe, in your evidence you said there was another attack which occurred at Ficksburg and you referred to that as the first Ficksburg attack. Is that the one where the old age home was attacked?
MR KGOTLHE: That is correct.
ADV SANDI: Mr Mbandazayo, has this been set down for, is it one of the matters to be heard?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's going to follow after this one and the subject of this hearing. I was just calling him just to confirm the part in the Dolo matter and we are through with it and then we handle it because he's with another applicant in it so I wanted this to be through so that he's with another applicant which is Kuluman in that one.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes we might have had crossed lines there because I would have preferred that he were to deal with all of the injuries that he's applying for, are you saying that in respect of that first Ficksburg attack this applicant was together with the remaining applicant?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And that up to now he's only dealt with the Ficksburg attack which involved Mr Dolo?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think perhaps you should just proceed you know and complete his testimony, just to deal with all of the incidents and do the same with the remaining applicants so that by the time that we're finished with that applicant we would have heard all of the testimony in respect of all of the incidents that they're applying amnesty for.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, it's just that Chairperson we had different affidavits in the bundle we don't have the one we are using now in the bundle, you only had one which relates to the old age home.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MBANDAZAYO: In the bundle, you didn't have the one for this one, relating to the Dolo matter in regard to Kgotlhe.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So that's the reason I decided I should start with this one and we are through then I was going to go to the second one, incident which also involved the second applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, no, no then I probably misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you were saying that you were going to let him stand down and then let him come and speak about that at some later stage in the proceedings. No, but I'm with you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson, I was going to proceed to the second application Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Alright, why don't you do that?
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
Chairperson, if I may proceed and read the affidavit of Mr Kgotlhe in regard to the second incident?
"I, the undersigned, Able Lerato Kgotlhe, do hereby make an oath and say that I'm the applicant in the above matter having submitted my application whilst being held at Grootvlei Maximum Prison, Bloemfontein, the facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge unless the context indicates otherwise. I was born in 1971 at Hoopstad, Free State Province, grew up in Wesselsbron where I did my primary education up to Standard 6 in 1984. In 1985 my family moved to Botshabelo near Thaba Nchu where I left school at Standard 8 due to financial problems. I joined PAC through Azania in 1986. In 1990 I left the country through Zimbabwe to Tanzania where I joined Apla and did my military training. I came back from Tanzania at the end of 1990 and I was posted at the PAC headquarters under the command of comrade Inox Zulu and the late Jan Shoba. Late 1991 I was deployed in the Free State Province, I was involved in about 7 operations and I have applied amnesty for all of them. I confirm that I was involved in the Ficksburg Townhouse attack. We were a unit of 5 operatives. It was myself, Nduna, Kenny, Roger, Scorpion and Max. I was ..."
Chairperson, just for the clarity of the Committee, Max is the second applicant, Luvuyo Kuluman, Kenneth Kuluman.
"I was the commander of the unit. Our target was the old age home. I was armed with 9 mm pistol and grenades. Nduna armed with pistol and grenades and others armed with grenades and Molotovs. It was our decision that if there is any ammunition, grenades and Molotovs left after the attack at the old age home we will use them to attack the town houses. Apla regarded the Free State especially as a bastion of White inherent folkism. It was one of the stronghold of the AWB which represented the White inherent folkism. We travelled from Lesotho to Ficksburg on foot. On our way to the old age home we met police vehicle patrol. We retreated and myself and Max entered a yard of a certain townhouse. Whilst in the yard with Max I shot the police vehicle and it sped off. The other comrades were no longer around. Myself and Max threw Molotovs in this house whose yard we were, we thereafter retreated and I threw a grenade in another house and it hit the window and fell on the parking area and destroyed the car which was parked there. We then went back to Lesotho. Apla’s mode of thinking and indeed operation did not distinguish between soft and hard targets nor indeed between military and civilian targets. When it comes to White South African society. We were simply fighting against criminals who sustained the apartheid system. Anybody who was playing part in moving apartheid forward and those who supported it were therefore criminals. This was the mode of thinking in the Apla code during the struggle. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I've made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the Ficksburg Townhouse attack and accordingly humbly request that my application for amnesty be granted."
Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Kgotlhe, can you take the Committee through with your decision to attack the old age home. Who took the decision and the planning and why was it the specifically the target, the old age home?
MR KGOTLHE: Firstly I would say, at the time when we identified the old age home as a target, it happened that around South Africa, especially in Johannesburg, there were attacks in trains, there were attacks in Boipatong, Sebokeng, around Sebokeng. Black people were killed like flies. Then the understanding of Apla was that Africans were not killing each other as it was purported to be believed. The Africans were killed by people who were hired by Whites so that to bring the idea that Black people don't like one another. After Apla observed that it was unacceptable for Africans to be killed in that way, so it took a step so that it will be able to make Whites feel the pain the same as Africans who felt the pain.
After that I was given an order that I should identify a target around Ficksburg area. The target which would bring pain, more pain which Africans felt at that time because of the killings around Johannesburg in the Vaal Triangle and in the trains. Then I went around Ficksburg area until I come across this area called an old age home. After I came across this area I observed the area for some time as to whether people were residing there. After that I consulted with the director of operations, that is comrade Mphashlele to inform him that I was able to identify a target.
Out of our consultations he gave me a go ahead that I should prepare to attack that particular area. I continued to gather the final details about our security going there and returning back. What I would explain again is that in addition to the plan which we had about the attack about that particular area was that alternatively if it happened that when we arrived at the old age home the ammunitions and the arms that should be left after the attack we would throw them randomly around the houses which were nearby or if it happened that we encountered the police before, those police would be our target and then if they would flee the ammunitions we had there, grenades and Molotovs, would throw them around the houses there.
Our aim was to fight a psychological war so again in addition to our primary objective to push them further from the borders so that we'd be having a territorial advantage near the borders, that is why we were able to attack that old age home. Fortunately, we were not able to come nearer that old age home, then we engaged ourselves with our secondary objective or secondary target. Then I threw a hand grenade next to the house then it fell on the car park then one car was damaged.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Kgotlhe, can you unless I ask you specifically again that now taking into account that these people were old people and they can't do anything for themselves and they were not party to what was happening in the country, why specifically them?
MR KGOTLHE: I would answer that firstly that oppression was not a discretion between age. People who took part in the oppression included old people and young people, we did not have preferential treatment for old age people and when we responded against oppression we had to have a clear objective that oppressors were not different from the age groups, all of them were oppressors. Then again even before they reached that old age state, they come from a certain age, they were members of the youth, they were young and then they were middle aged and they participated in the oppression and when they were old at the stage they took part in the support of apartheid and they benefited from the apartheid itself. Why I'm saying age was not an issue is that firstly the oppressors themselves when they see me they saw me as a boy. My father was regarded as a boy, my grandfather was regarded as a boy, my sister was regarded as a girl, my mother was a girl, so they did not differentiate between the various age groups or they didn't see a difference between me and my father or my grandfather, we were all boys so therefore we did not have a problem to respond to that oppression knowing that there was no young persons and old persons, all of them were oppressors.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Sorry Chairperson, just grant me a moment?
When you consulted, Mr Kgotlhe, when you consulted Mr Mpashlele, did you tell him exactly what your target was?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes I did.
MS PATEL: Okay and during your reconnoitring the houses in the vicinity of the old age home did you reconnoitre that section as well, did you know who stayed there or didn't it matter?
MR KGOTLHE: I don't remember well but the most important thing was that the area I'm talking about is situated within town. There is a likelihood that the police station would be around firstly, secondly the houses which were there could have been occupied by members of the security personnel but I don't remember well about the final details in regard to the houses or the occupants surrounding the old age home.
MS PATEL: Do I understand you correctly, you're making an assumption that there was a police station in the area and that those houses were occupied by members of the security forces? That's just an assumption?
MR KGOTLHE: I would say I assumed because this thing happened a long time ago and then some of the final details have slipped my memory.
MS PATEL: Okay, I'd like to put it to you that there isn't in fact a police station near the old age home?
MR KGOTLHE: I would agree with you, I would not dispute, I would not agree.
MS PATEL: And if I understand you correctly, the only thing that mattered was that they were White, was that your victims were White, that the occupiers of the homes in the vicinity were White?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: You must have known though that there were White people in this country who were involved in the liberation movement, not so?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes I do.
MS PATEL: So can you explain why you painted all White people with the same brush, why you didn't seek to draw a distinction between White people who would have been supportive of the liberation movement and those who were not?
MR KGOTLHE: You'd remember that even Craig Williamson was involved with the ANC. I'd say the oppressors in the liberation movements was not a clear cut idea as to whether no one can win the constituency that here to liberation movements. The oppression was general to the African people then the response to that oppression had to be general to those who took part in the oppression.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any further questions by the panel?
ADV BOSMAN: Could you just tell us how long before the attack on the houses, I'm now referring to the first incident on which you gave evidence, was this attack on the old age home planned?
MR KGOTLHE: You mean how long it took to be planned?
ADV BOSMAN: No, no, I mean how long before you attacked the houses where you thought there were security personnel, how long before that did you plan the attack on the old age home, when did this attack which you intended for the old age home, when did that take place?
MR KGOTLHE: I'm not quite sure about the actual duration but I would say it happened a month or two weeks, I'm not sure about the actual period.
ADV BOSMAN: I wonder if you then could just clarify for me Mr Kgotlhe, this I don't understand, why were you concerned in the second attack about an area where there was security people living and not in the first attack, that I don't understand?
MR KGOTLHE: Is that in regard to the first application or in regard to the one we're dealing with now.
ADV BOSMAN: No, well my question is in the first application as you call it, you were so concerned whether there were security personnel living in the houses, whilst two weeks earlier it didn't matter to you at all. How did that come about?
MR KGOTLHE: Ja, it's like getting inside a supermarket with the intention of buying an apple but because of the smell of that grape, then you change your mind not to buy an apple and then buy grapes. So here I'm saying it was a question of choice in terms of prioritising the targets and yes, it was about choice, it was not a - we were not that subjective to an extent that only policemen and defence personnel were the only legitimate targets available for us, there were plenty of targets.
ADV BOSMAN: No that I understand, Mr Kgotlhe, what I don't understand is if you'd attacked the police target first and then decided well now we'll go further, I would have understood it in a way but you start off with a very soft target and then move to the important target, that I don't understand, why you exercised your choice in that order?
MR KGOTLHE: Unfortunately oppressors had no soft slaves or victims, they treated us the same way and that concretised our response in that this language of soft targets and hard targets never ever existed in our vocabulary so I don't know which soft targets you are referring to and which are hard but what I know we had targets and our targets were oppressors.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kgotlhe, let me try and put it differently because I really do not understand your reasoning at the time. I would have thought that you would have first attacked the target which would have been quite an obstacle, the security people with arms. But instead of starting with them you start with the soft targets and you leave the security people with the arms still there, why did you not attack them first. This is my difficulty, I honestly don't understand your reasoning.
MR KGOTLHE: It would have been vice versa, we may have attacked the police first then came later and attacked - so it's a question of sequence, I understand, so I really am not sure what is the problem about that, choosing soft targets first and hard targets second, I'm not sure what is the problem.
ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to argue with you, I just want to explain my difficulty to you. I would have thought if there was an attack on the police first you may have had some successes there and then it would have been easier to launch a second attack after that, this is how I would have thought, you need not agree with me but do you have any comment on my reasoning?
MR KGOTLHE: So it goes without saying that it was business as usual, the struggle was going on, having chosen soft targets as you like to say or you like us to believe, then to us was not an issue, an issue to us was executing operations and arriving at our end goal which was freedom, that was our main interest.
ADV BOSMAN: I won't take this any further, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kgotlhe, at the time when you saw the director of operations at that stage had you already formed the - or come to the conclusion that parts of that particular area are occupied by members of the security forces?
MR KGOTLHE: May you please repeat your question?
CHAIRPERSON: I want to know at the time when you had your discussions with the director of operations had you already come to the conclusion that parts of that particular area in Ficksburg were occupied by members of the security forces?
MR KGOTLHE: Are you referring specifically to the area which was attacked or Ficksburg as a whole?
CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put in more general, had you already formed the impression or drawn the conclusion that there were certain parts of Ficksburg that were occupied by members of the security forces?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you discuss that with the director of operations as well?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you indicate to him that or did you propose any attacks on those houses that occupy members of the security forces to the director of operations?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was his attitude about that idea?
MR KGOTLHE: In fact he supported everything I came up with.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you discussed the intended attack on the old age home, did you also brief him on all the other alternative courses of actions, the other options if arms were left over after the attack, you would use it to attack houses and if police were to come you would attack them and so on? In other words did you brief him on all those details that you had in mind?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes he was provided with all the details concerning the attack and it's possible fall backs, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was his attitude towards that, was he also supportive or what was his attitude?
MR KGOTLHE: He supported it whole heartedly.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you report back after the incidents? Well we're talking about this particular incident now, the first.
MR KGOTLHE: Yes it was standard procedure that I should report back.
CHAIRPERSON: And can you recall who you reported to, was it head office or was the director or who was it that you reported to?
MR KGOTLHE: I reported directly to the director of operations.
CHAIRPERSON: And whilst we're talking about that, in the case of the later attack on the houses where Mr Dolo was also involved, did you discuss that particular operation beforehand with the director or did you just carry on with the second one?
MR KGOTLHE: In fact he was made aware after, the only thing which happened there was that he instructed me that I should make the point that there are activities in my region and I should select targets as per my instruction so I used my discretion in this respect and this was done in accordance with the general instruction that all regional commanders have that power to choose this or that target so it was done on discretion and thereafter, that is after the execution, I did go back and he accepted everything which we did.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, I'm sorry to come back to you Mr Kgotlhe, I just wondered, why did Nduna and Kenny and Max who were with you in the first attack, first incident, why did they not assist you when you attacked the houses which you believed were the security houses?
MR KGOTLHE: Well as I said we encountered a police patrol vehicle and as a result there was disorganisation which led to them leaving behind those bags which contained Molotovs so I was left with comrade Max behind who had in his possession a bag containing spikes so I will attribute that to panic.
ADV BOSMAN: But what became of them, what became of Kenny and Nduna and did they join up with the unit again?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes after the operation we did meet but the unit - yes I did retain them after the operation, they were part of the unit.
ADV BOSMAN: But when Mr Nduna assisted you, where were they then?
MR KGOTLHE: Well there was a prescribed area or RV whereby we will meet after having executed the mission, so what happened they took that direction of the said RV or rendezvous.
ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether I'm being a little slow in understanding today but at the time - look if I understand you correctly, Nduna and Kenny and Max were with you when you planned the attack on the old age home, is that correct?
MR KGOTLHE: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Now two weeks later, more or less two weeks later, you asked Mr Dolo to assist you, is that correct?
MR KGOTLHE: Oh, in fact I'm sorry because I'm confusing this with the initial operation, I was not aware that you are referring to the one which Mr Dolo was involved. In fact, as I said earlier on, there was this thing or this rule which says each should know according to - I don't want to use the word status, I don't know how can I put it, but something like that, so I could not involve them, that is Jabu and Roger, I could not involve them in the reconnaissance of that operation for some reasons and hence I called upon comrade Dolo to come and assist us in that operation.
ADV BOSMAN: But can't you tell us why you could not engage them, why did Mr Dolo come, why could you not engage them?
MR KGOTLHE: Well I could not include them for obvious reasons that to say firstly reconnaissance is not - I mean it would not have been wise for me to include a group or more than two people into such an activity or into collecting information so I had to limit the number so that if something went astray during the execution or during our advance to the target, I should know who might have betrayed the information or given the information to the third person. So it was all about maintaining consistency and making sure that not all of us are part of the same activity, that is if I was to collect information, that is well and good, I will then come back and report to them when necessary or when time avails itself, that gentlemen, this is so and so, so we will be advancing to our targets on this day so prepare yourself. It was about timing of everything because everything had to be timed, everything had to go according to channels ...[intervention]
ADV BOSMAN: I'm afraid that I'm now even more confused. If you had a unit of five people, at the time when you planned to attack the old age home and you back with your unit you said that you got together again. Why do you now need manpower from another unit to attack in the same area again. Do you see what my difficulty is? Why not use the same unit, it's your unit, you are the commander?
MR KGOTLHE: Well there were plenty of cadres available, I would have changed the whole unit if I wanted to so I'm trying to say here it was not a requirement for that matter to use the same unit in all activities. It was about choosing who would be best suited in this activity and who will not so in this regard I found comrade Dolo to be an appropriate person to fill that gap so hence the said comrades were not included in collecting the information and until the last minute of an operation.
ADV BOSMAN: And not have provided the security, the back up which Dolo provided, could they not have done that?
MR KGOTLHE: They would have provided that but as I have just said it was a question of choice so instead of choosing them I chose - or one of them, I chose comrade Dolo, so it was not a standard requirement that I used them in all operations or in all activities within. You may be for instance a commissar and be my deputy but if matters arise and there is no need that I should consult with you or I mean use you, I may, I have that choice or right to choose who can fill your gap.
ADV. BOSMAN: Was it not unusual as it were to ask someone from another unit who is your equal in rank to come and assist while you have members from your own unit which you could have used? Was that not rather unusual?
MR KGOTLHE: Well there are - everything was unusual. There was no consistency in all the things so as I'm saying everything was unusual so the unusuality of it was never a problem for us.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Can I also just understand Mr Kgotlhe, did you also say that you were in need of a second commander?
MR KGOTLHE: No, I said I just wanted his experience or expertise, that is why I went for him.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Mr Mbandazayo, anything further?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence of the applicant.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Kgotlhe thank you, you can stand down. We will adjourn at this stage for lunch and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
