MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm calling Abel Khotle.
LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, you have an affidavit in front of you and it's also before the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?
MR KHOTLE: What appears on the affidavit, it's the truth.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Chairman, I'll go to paragraph 5 of his affidavit
"I confirm that I gave an order for the operation in Wesselsbron Supermarket after receiving approval from the Director of Operations. I also confirm that I was the regional commander at the time of the operation."
Now, can you tell the Committee, how did it come about that you seek an approval from the Director of Operations for the operation at Wesselsbron?
MR KHOTLE: Firstly, I would say, as Mr Khotle, I was a member of A P L A, that's APLA. APLA has a chain of command, and then as the regional commander I was a subordinate and there were those who were above me, I had to consult with them before I do any commission or any operation. There are two things. One, (Sotho), I would receive some instructions, then I would follow those instructions. Secondly, of that chain of command... (intervention).
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, may we ask you to stick to one language, whether you prefer English or whatever, but it's very difficult to follow the translation and to interpret if you switch languages please.
MR KHOTLE: I would speak Sotho. What I want to say is that there are two things, if it happens that I'm deployed in a particular area, I would receive instructions from above that you should do certain operations up to a certain point. Secondly, because of the respect for the chains of commands, I must by all means consult with those above me before I execute any operation in any particular area. Shortly, those are the most important issues. It is because of the respect of the chains of command, as APLA was a military institution, that is why I have to report at all times to those who are above me before I do any operation, though I have a limited discretion to do certain operations.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Khotle, can you, with regard to this one, Wesselsbron Supermarket operation, can you tell us what actually took place before you sought the approval from the Director of Operations?
MR KHOTLE: Firstly, at the time when I was in this province, after being deployed in this area, I was able to make assessments of specific areas, and I was able to make assessments of the region as a whole. That is a requirement so that every APLA soldier, when he arrives at a certain place, he must do that assessment of that particular area.
What happened is that before the Wesselsbron attack, my comrades, that is Ryber, who is Bhani, arrived, as I was expecting him from Umtata. When he arrived, I took him from Welkom to Wesselsbron at Mnyagene Township. Mnyagene Township I sought accommodation for him and then he found that accommodation. It was within his scope of his work that when he arrived in a particular area, he should make his own assessment, then he should look for areas where he, I would use this word, say potential targets.
What happened is that he stayed in Mnyagene for some time, then he returned to Welkom and reported to me that he was able to identify a certain place, he said this is the right place that that place should be attacked. He gave me reasons why that area should be attacked. The first reason was that during the time when he conducted his reconnaissance or that information-gathering, he was able to find out that that place was frequented by security police and then again by members of AWB.
After he reported to me and gave me the full details of that particular place, I was obliged to make my own reconnaissance at the supermarket. This incident happened in June. In the late May or the last week of May, I started to continue with my reconnaissance. I did them in two days, that is Friday and Saturday. It is within these two days that what I heard from Bhani is true.
On the first week of June, I departed from Welkom on Friday and I went to Wesselsbron. I left on Friday deliberately late in the afternoon, around six to seven o'clock, knowing that the taxi would take me next to, would pass next to the supermarket. I alighted the taxi at the taxi rank, becuase they were waiting for taxis from the township, because that taxi started from Odendaal, Odendaalsrus to Wesselsbron, and it did not go through the township. I stayed there for a while, waiting for a taxi from the township. I went to that supermarket. At the door, when I entered, I met one of those people who were there and who was armed with a pistol. He was wearing private clothes. I entered inside. I went to the fridge, I took a drink, I took some fruits.
At the time whilst I was taking those cooldrinks and the fruits, I was looking around the area. I paid at the counter and when I went outside, that person whom I found at the door who was having a pistol, that is the time when he was leaving the area, and thereafter I left the store. Outside I saw a taxi which came from the township. Then I entered into that taxi to Mnyagene Township.
On Saturday, I went back to Welkom late in the afternoon. I did that deliberately, because I wanted to pass again at that store. I went there and waited for taxis from Wesselsbron to Odendaalsrus where I would embark on a taxi to Welkom. I went inside again and looked inside. On that day, I saw one person who was talking with other people, and he was having a pistol, but he was not the same person as the one I saw on Friday. I passed and I went to Welkom.
On the second week, if I remember well, I returned. I arrived at the same time late in the afternoon, that was on Friday. I found the situation being the same, there would always be one person who was armed. I went to the township. The following day I left early in the morning. On Saturday I returned to Welkom. When I arrived in Welkom, I took a taxi to Umtata. Then I met the Director of Operations, that is Comrade Leklapa Mpashlele. I explained to him about the situations in Free State and about that particular target in fact, Wesselsbron. In a discussion, we were able to identify that place as a potential target. Then he gave me an approval that I should return and instruct the unit which was present, which was led by Comrade Bhani, that it should execute the operation. That's how the operation was executed.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell the Committee whether before the operation took place, was there any other person who knew about the operation except yourself and Bhani?
MR KHOTLE: The other person who knew about the operation is Comrade Mpashlele. There is no other person except we three.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to the Committee that there is no member of the unit, maybe that you told one member of the unit that there's going to be this operation at Wesselsbron?
MR KHOTLE: There is no other person about this operation except Comrade Sibande, that is Dennis, who did not know about this operation. What I went there is that I should come with a deception plan. The deception plan was that this member should be informed that in Welkom there is a place which should be attacked, not in Wesselsbron. That's what I did, because I wanted to safeguard the security of the target and the security of the people who are going to take part in the operation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, why did you come up with the deception plan to Dennis Sibande?
MR KHOTLE: In many cases, particularly in my military training, they said each and every comrade should be, I should trust him only 90%, I should reserve the 20%(???). Those are the aspects of my training, that is why that if it happens that we should have a disturbance, or the compromise of the information, or the leak of information about the target, there should be a way of misleading the security forces if it happens that if somebody leaks the information about the presence of APLA and the presence of the PAC in a particular area. That is why I brought the deception plan. The most important thing is that, firstly, I safeguarded the security of the potential target, and then I again safeguard the security of the team which would take part in the operation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: As a regional commander, you gave the order for the attack at Wesselsbron supermarket. Now, can you tell the Committee your reasons, or how did you arrive at that decision that this must be attacked?
MR KHOTLE: The first reason is that we, as Africans in general, when I talk about Africans, I don't want to use the word black, because if you look at me, I'm not black, so I would choose this word black, but we as Africans in general, we were oppressed, and in that oppression, it was clear that who are our oppressors, those are European settlers.
What I want to say that to identify or select a target in white South Africa, it was not a problem to us, becuase it was clear who are our oppressors, that is the Europeans. This attack happened, looking that it is not possible for us to achieve our liberation unless those who benefit from their oppression, all those who are represented by, or they represent oppression, and those who support and maintain the villas of white supremacy, those people to us are targets, because we, as Africans, we were more important than any other person who is not an indigenous citizen of this country or in Africa as a whole.
It was clear that Europeans came, settled in our country and they disowned us of the ownership of this country and oppressed us, they harassed us and did all those things. So that in itself, they put themselves as a target to ourselves. So it was not a problem to identify a target. What I would say is that the most important issue is that it was a way in which we would be able to fight the corruption and the oppression and the oppressors themselves. It was the way in which we would be able to retain or attain our identity, and it was the way in which we would be able to attain our land and our government. So anything which is represented by Europeans in Africa, and those who represent oppression, to us are a target.
CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to stop your client from making his political remarks, but the question simply was how did they select this target, not how did they select targets in general. Will you please try to keep him to the point.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was about to intervene at that point. Mr Khotle, we know, what I wanted was this specific, this target, this Wesselsbron target, that's one specific incident which we are about here, this application is about the Wesselsbron supermarket, so I want you to confine yourself to the Wesselsbron supermarket.
MR KHOTLE: We were able to identify this Wesselsbron target among other targets. We did not have resources which we will be able to choose other targets which were confirmed before, so this would be the target which would enable us in a position to attack other targets. So that is why we were able to identify this target, because it will give us resources, we would be able to get money and use that money to carry out the execution of other targets. That is why we came to that conclusion. I don't know if I've answered your question, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, to the extent, I think, that that tells us why you would want to attack a supermarket or something of that nature, what we want to know is why this particular supermarket? There must have been others in the area, why this one?
MR KHOTLE: As I've already explained that we did not have problems of which target to start with, we did not have a problem to identify targets. During our organised struggle for liberation, this supermarket which was attacked, it was one of those areas which could have been attacked at any time by any other unit. Why specifically this one, I would like to say, I want to say that oppression was not mainly as Africans, we don't have skills or maybe it was because of the greed of Europeans for us to come to this conclusion that we attacked this area, we had many targets, now this one would make us able to attack other targets, because of the money we would receive from this.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman asked you specifically that he understands that there are many other supermarkets which possibly they were also targets, potential targets, if I may use your words, but the question he wanted was that you have already indicated that you were able to get money, but he wants to know why specifically this supermarket, the Wesselsbron supermarket, why specifically that one, because he understands maybe there are other supermarkets where you were able to get money, but now why specifically that one?
MR KHOTLE: Let me put it this way, when I spoke about many targets which we have already identified, I said targets, as to whether they were supermarkets or not, I didn't say that, they were not all supermarkets, in those targets there were no supermarkets, there were certain areas.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Before you go forward, no, he did not say that you said that the targets were supermarkets, he himself said he understands that there are other supermarkets or any shops which are in a position of that supermarket where you were able may to attack or to get money from. Now he wants to know why specifically that one, not necessarily that it was said by yourself?
MR KHOTLE: We chose this one because it did not have problems. There were other targets which the situation around them were a little bit complicated, and the security was different, or maybe the team which would attack there would not be conducive for them to be attacked. That is why we chose this one, because firstly, according to our tactics, we attack where the enemy is weak. That is why we attacked this one. It has access and it will be able to be attacked and be able to retreat without the interference of the security forces. That is why we chose this one.
MR MALAN: Can I just follow up on that please? The evidence we have before us is that, from yourself, that this supermarket was guarded by people with pistols, wearing plain clothes, we have your evidence that Mr Bhani told you that it was frequented by security police, we have his evidence that it was frequented with AWB members carrying guns in uniform and by police, and that the police station was two blocks up the road, what makes this a weak target? Is this not a difficult target, wouldn't it be a major feat to do what you indeed did do?
MR KHOTLE: What I know is that the police station was near to the supermarket. You cannot rely on the police, because in most cases over the weekend they will go and drink in the township, that is what we realised, that during the weekend the police will relax and go to the township, others will go to the City Hall, so that was our deduction, we saw it easy to attack that place then.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And in an event... (intervention).
MR MALAN: Sorry, who told you that they were relaxing over weekends and going out for drinks and going to the City Hall, who told you that?
MR KHOTLE: At the beginning I said on my arrival there, I assessed the area, and other places there, and after that I made a collective assessment of the whole region. In other words it means that myself, I realised during that assessment that in a particular area the community there behave in a certain way, the police in that area behave in a certain way in different times, like for example at the end of the month. So what I'm trying to say here is that there is no-one who told me, but I found that out myself when I was doing my assessment, I realised the way in which they behave, I realised that they relax.
MR MALAN: And after Mr Bhani reported to you that he identified the target, you nevertheless deemed it fit to go out twice to confirm this again, do I understand your evidence to be that?
MR KHOTLE: It was necessary that I should also go there and make an assessment. As a regional commander, it has to be clear that I was not commanding the air but the people, their security. If anything happens to one of them, or when they meet, if anything happens to them, I will be responsible and then I will have to answer how did it happen to Africa, in other words I have to be responsible and account to anything that will happen to them, that is the members of APLA. Like I've already said, I was a member of the security, they were also members of our security.
MR MALAN: Let me ask you this last question, what did you learn on those two follow-up visits, after identification of the target, and you say it was over weekends, that you did not know before?
MR KHOTLE: Can you please repeat your question?
MR MALAN: What did you learn about this target when you specifically went there by taxi on two weekends that you did not know before from your general reconnaissance and getting to know the area, because you told us you knew that supermarket, you knew the area, you knew the police's behaviour, you knew that they were reclining and relaxing and drinking over weekends, what did you learn after the identification of the target that you didn't know before?
MR KHOTLE: The most important thing was to make sure what M'Afrika told me was true, and to ascertain what I have gathered will corroborate with what M'Afrika have told me, the information that he gave me and the information that I have gathered myself, it was just a question of corroborating the information that he brought to me. On the other side, I also have information that I gathered myself from what I saw there during the weekend and that which M'Afrika told me, whether it's in line with the information that I already have.
MR MALAN: Now what information did he give you that you needed to corroborate that you didn't have before?
MR KHOTLE: The information that he gave me that I already knew was that that place was frequented by the police and the members of the AWB. I already knew that information, but the most important thing that I want to say, the reason why I went there was that, one, first, as a regional commander I have to be responsible and account to my seniors, because if one of our members die or get injured in a particular place, I could not rely... (intervention).
MR MALAN: We've heard that, you don't have to repeat that. Frankly, I simply asked you about additional information, I don't ask you about your responsibilities and duties, I asked you whether there was any information you got from Bhani that you did not have before. Was there any or was there not?
MR KHOTLE: Okay. He just confirmed what I already knew.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, can you tell the Committee your role regarding, did you play any role regarding the transport to Wesselsbron and also your involvement regarding the firearms that were used in the operation?
MR KHOTLE: Starting with the weapons, I will say I sent the late Comrade Zukwa, I sent him to Umtata so that he can go and get supplies of arms, money and the weapons. What would happen is that he came, together with Comrade Moalusi.
Unfortunately when they arrived with Comrade Moalusi, I was not there, I was in Kroonstad. The following day, in the morning, I arrived again in Welkom, and then I met Comrade Zukwa waiting for me at the hostel as we have arranged. On my arrival at the hostel, he told me that he has brought with him the parcels. So when I inspected the parcels, I realised that they are R4's, grenades, ammunition and the rifle grenades. So the other Africa had already left, that is M'Afrika Moalusi, he had already gone back.
On the arrival of these weapons, I took one rifle and I gave it to Comrade Ryder, I was left with only one rifle and then I took three bullets, I gave them to Themba Ngesi. I gave one ammunition and rifle to Comrade Themba and three I gave it to Themba, I told him to hide it and I was left with one.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I'm getting confused, could we stay with the names of the individuals that we know, as we know them?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll try my best, the problem is that they don't know themselves with the actual names, so that's why he's (indistinct) now in the affidavit we have used the actual names, so that's why most of the time they use the names they were using in the operations. So, Comrade Chairman, I think Zukwa he said is Sebinzile, if I may correct, do you confirm that Mr Khotle, and Themba Gesi is Silimela Ngesi, Mr Chairman, the second applicant, who has already testified before you.
CHAIRPERSON: And Moalusi?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Moalusi Morrison I think is the fourth applicant, Morrison, Mr Chairman. Proceed, Mr Khotle.
MR KHOTLE: You asked me two questions concerning the arms, can you please remind me of another question, can you please repeat the other question?
MR MBANDAZAYO: I've asked you whether you did play a role in getting the transport which was used in the operation?
MR KHOTLE: When coming to transport, the role that I played was that I sent Dennis Sibande to go and meet Stanley Tshoane to tell him that he must be ready about the bus that we have already talked about. My arrangement with Tshoane before the incident, before I sent Sibande, was that if I do not manage to get to him, I'll send somebody and then when he arrived there, talking about the parcel, he should know that he was sent by me. So I told Tshoane to be ready with the transport. Thereafter, that is on the day of the attack, I went to fetch Tshoane, then I sent them to Wesselsbron together with Comrade Ngesi and Comrade Sibande and Comrade Sebinzile. So that is the role that I can say I played inasfar as the transport is concerned.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, Mr Khotle, my last question to you, you confirmed before this Committee that Wesselsbron Supermarket was attacked on your instructions?
MR KHOTLE: That is true.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you will be?
MR STEENKAMP: I'll push along, Mr Chairman, I'll push along.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can you just remind me again, what was your political objective you sought to be achieved by attacking the supermarket, what was your political objective?
MR KHOTLE: Specifically the supermarket itself will not bring us to freedom, but what was important is that the supermarket itself would help us to move forward with our war, that is our struggle. So that was one of the ways that would help us to move forward with our struggle.
MR MALAN: You, in your evidence in chief talked about the money as the objective there, that would fund you for further moving forward, is that correct?
MR KHOTLE: I said that this attack was two-folded. Firstly, we wanted the money. Secondly, the instruction that I gave was that "Let us kill everything that is alive in this supermarket". I said this as a normal person, because I cannot take a gun and give it to a person and then expect him not to kill with that gun. If I did not want the people to die, I wouldn't have given them the firearms.
MR STEENKAMP: So do I understand you correctly that your political objective was mainly a financial one, to get funds, is this the reason why you attacked the supermarket?
MR KHOTLE: That is one of the things that we wanted in that supermarket, we needed that money in order to carry forward our activities.
MR STEENKAMP: Did you receive any instructions from your commander or your commanders regarding the Wesselsbron, I mean the supermarket attack?
MR KHOTLE: I have already explained that after satisfying myself that this supermarket is a real target, I went back to Umtata, then I consulted with the Director of Operations, then he approved and he said that we can move forward with the operation.
MR STEENKAMP: Did he also approve the killing of the people inside the supermarket?
MR KHOTLE: War is about killing, there is no war wherein peoples do not die.
MR STEENKAMP: No Sir, I think the question is this, did you inform him that you're going to kill those people, or did he instruct you that you must kill those people, do you understand my question?
MR KHOTLE: I understand your question. That is why I think that I've answered the question correctly. Being the director of operation, you are not just a director of troops, troops that will just go and attack even the walls, he knew that the people will die, hence I say that I told the unit commander that everything that is alive there have to be dead. That is what I'm saying now.
MR STEENKAMP: You see, something which I don't understand at all in your amnesty application, because none of this is included in your amnesty application, nowhere are you stating that the second objective of your group or of yourself was to kill people, you're only saying in your whole application it was to get money, that was your only objective, a financial one, nothing about to kill other people or that you were instructed implicitly or whatever. Can you explain that to me?
MR KHOTLE: I will ask if the Committee could, or the honourable Advocate Steenkamp to read on that section that deals with the justifications, as to what the attack was all about in my application, the one that I've submitted to this Honourable Committee. They should find out that indicated that the attack was about financial gain, because he's trying to create that impression.
MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I don't know if you had an opportunity to read your own amnesty application before the hearing, but I will refer you just quickly to page 11, paragraph 10(e) of your application. There you're saying the following
"The political objectives sought to be achieved were those of financially maintaining APLA units through such means as applied in these cases in question."
And then, going to page 12, paragraph 11(b), where the question is if you received any orders or approval, there you say:-
"The instruction was that of mounting fund raising operations, as in the cases in question."
Nowhere are you indicating anywhere that one of the functions was also to kill the people in the shop, the white people, as it was indicated by the first applicant, nowhere is there any shape of information indicating this. Why is that?
MR KHOTLE: I think now I understand your problem. That is why I'm here today. I'm here to add to what is already written there. If it is not mentioned there that people should be killed, then I'm here to add what is not written on that application, that is my understanding why I'm here today.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was, why did you not say it in your application, and you said it was there. Is there any reason why you didn't mention it initially? But before you answer that, Mr Steenkamp can you show us where you were reading from? You referred to page 11 and page 12?
MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it's the new copy that was -I'm sorry for the confusion, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you like, Mr Khotle, to tell us why it wasn't in your application?
MR KHOTLE: If there is a reason, then that is what the English people say it's a human error.
MR STEENKAMP: Are there any other errors, Sir, before we take you through your application again, that you would like to comment on, or before we continue, is this the only thing you want to add, was there anything else?
MR KHOTLE: No.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if the applicant can be given a copy of his application so that he may have a look at it?
MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it seems that the applicant's ready, maybe we can continue? If I can continue, Mr Chairman? Sir, I just want to read a sentence to you from a document in my possession, I will gladly make it available to you, I'm just going to read the sentence and I just want to hear what is your response.
"The whole system of apartheid was run by people who chose to separate themselves from the rest of humanity and called themselves white. It is these people, therefore, who we had to tackle in the fight against the system."
Is that correct, is that what your policy was?
MR KHOTLE: Attacking whites?
MR STEENKAMP: Yes, I'll read it again for you
"The whole system of apartheid was run by people who chose to separate themselves from the rest of humanity and called themselves white. It is these people, therefore, who we had to tackle in the fight against the system."
Is this what the APLA policy was?
MR KHOTLE: It was one of them.
MR STEENKAMP: Is this correct?
MR KHOTLE: I'm saying so, yes, it is correct.
MR STEENKAMP: So in other words your fight was basically against white people?
CHAIRPERSON: We are not getting an interpretation here.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it was just a technical mistake. Can we start again?
MR KHOTLE: What I was saying is that for that word "white" to be used or the word "black" in a document related to PAC, that was done for the sake of people like you, so that you can understand when we talk about the black and white, which people we are really talking about. Our war was not a racial war, it was a war for freedom. It is in your interest, it helps you to understand which people we are actually referring to, because people are afraid to say that they are Europeans. The Africans are proud to call them Africans. For example, in the United States of America, before you talk about Africa, you have to add for example you have to say Afro-American.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I don't think we need this long discussion. If you would just answer the questions and stop and then he may ask more questions.
MR KHOTLE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR KHOTLE: Okay, thank you very much.
MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
So are you saying that the attack on the supermarket in Wesselsbron was not primarily aimed against the white people, is that what you're saying, because that is why I'm asking you the question?
MR KHOTLE: The attack to this supermarket was an attack to the people who were oppressing, those who were oppressing the African people.
MR STEENKAMP: Sir, my question is, I will gladly repeat it to you, the attack on the supermarket, the incident here, we're talking here about today, was it mainly planned to kill white people or not? Do you understand the question?
MR KHOTLE: M'Lord, I'll repeat what I've already said. I don't want to talk about the race, because you want me to talk about the race, I don't see any white person here, I only see people, we wrote this for you to understand.
MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I'm talking about the supermarket, because I'll tell you why I'm asking this, because Comrade Bhani, if I'm not mistaken, said something different. He said the idea was to kill mainly the white people, or no, he said actually only the white people. Now that's why I'm asking the question. Please, do you understand this and can you please answer the question?
MR KHOTLE: Do you have a problem with white, the word "white", or the attack itself, can you please help me with that, because really I don't understand your problem. Do you have a problem with the word "white" or do you have a problem with the attack on the supermarket?
CHAIRPERSON: The question is that Mr Bhani gave evidence that they attacked, the objective was to attack and kill only white people, that's the question that's now being put to you. Now whether those white people are oppressors or non-Africans or simply white, let's not argue the language, we know what we're talking about, are you saying the same, or are you saying the objective was to kill everybody there? This is really the question.
MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR KHOTLE: Now I understand it now. When coming to your level, it was to kill the white people only.
MR STEENKAMP: So Sir, I have to ask you this, was this then a racist attack on the supermarket?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, I think we have canvassed that, it's... (intervention).
MR STEENKAMP: All right, I'll leave that question, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: May I follow that question through, because you're now saying it was only to kill the whites or oppressors or non-Africans or whatever, let's not argue the debate, and in that sense to kill only the white people, but you responded immediately and you said that the objective, in cross-examination by Mr Steenkamp, you said the objectives were twofold: the one was to get money; the second was to kill everything alive in the supermarket, and the question relates not to your broader policy, but to the supermarket attack. The question is, in other words, if there were indigenous people in the supermarket, would they have been killed or not? If there were non-oppressors in the supermarket, if there were oppressed people in the supermarket, would they have been killed or not? That's the question?
MR KHOTLE: Yes, oh yes, I should have heard it, that is in exception of the attack should, I mean everything should, living should have been killed in except, or in the exception of the oppressed and the exploited.
CHAIRPERSON: But you did not say that, you repeatedly said, or said on more than one occasion, "I told them, I told the unit commander that everything that is alive must be dead", no distinctions, everything that is alive must be dead, that is what you said you told your unit commander.
MR KHOTLE: Yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you do that, is that what you told them?
MR KHOTLE: I can say they went there knowing very well that there will be two people, the oppressor and the oppressed. If it happens that the oppressed will be there, maybe waiting there, they will have to try by all means not to involve them in that attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever say to that to them?
MR KHOTLE: Yes, that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you tell us about it, why do we have to ask you these questions and then to get it in a round about way?
MR STEENKAMP: Mr Khotle, the difficulty is that, as the Chair has pointed out, on several occasions you said that the instructions were to go into that supermarket and kill everything alive, you said it on several occasions, everything alive. You never said oppressors, you never said white people, you never said Europeans, you said everything alive, or is everything alive meant to be understood to be only Europeans or oppressors or settlers or whatever you want to refer to them as?
MR KHOTLE: I understand your problem.
MR STEENKAMP: No, Mr Khotle, it's not my problem, it's your problem, because you've got to be able to tell us what you want to tell us. If we don't understand you, it becomes your problem. We have to make a decision and we want to understand you.
MR KHOTLE: What I can say is that the hearing is continuing. That which I have not said, because the hearing is continuing, I don't think that will be a problem, because the hearing is still continuing.
MR STEENKAMP: I'm not sure whether it's the interpretation or the answer, could you help us?
MR KHOTLE: What I'm saying is that, that which I did not say, what I said is that the attack should be directed to everything that is alive there, so I'm saying that it is good that the Member of the Committee has managed to ask me. So my understanding is that the hearing is continuing, so I don't see any problem why should this be an issue, because you are still continuing with the hearing?
CHAIRPERSON: Because you are supposed to tell us the truth and to make a full disclosure, and if you have not been doing that, you will not be granted amnesty in terms of the Act. It is not our function to go on questioning you for hours on end so you can come up with a different version after a different version. Your counsel has consulted with you, he has led your evidence, and you chose to adopt the line that the instructions you gave were the strong instructions to kill everything that moved, everything that lived. That is the evidence you chose to give, and it is not our function, as has been pointed out to you, to go on asking question after question so that you can then come out with another version. Do you understand?
MR KHOTLE: I don't have a problem with that, Mr Chair.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, the Committee, what it wants is that can you explain what do you mean when you said that they must kill everything that was alive in the supermarket, does that mean include even the oppressed people, that's what they want to know, what is the meaning of that statement?
MR KHOTLE: I will answer as follows, like I've already said before, it is true that I said everything that is alive should be killed, it is also true that I didn't add the explanation that except the Africans. Now I'm giving the explanation, or I added what I've already said when I said everything that is alive should be killed, with the exception of the oppressed. So that is the explanation that I'm giving now.
CHAIRPERSON: Would "everything alive" include foreigners or tourists from other countries?
MR KHOTLE: Firstly, if there are people like tourists, they came here knowing the situation in this country and they were not written that they come from abroad. If it happened that way, then it would have happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you not now telling us that, in order to identify oppressors, you look only at colour, that's why you would mistake a visiting tourist to be an oppressor?
MR KHOTLE: How would I know that they are tourists, how would I know that they are Chinese or they are Russians, how would I know that they were French? What is important is that, what was important was my freedom and the freedom of Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: So, for that reason, you would kill everybody white, wherever they came from, for the sake of your freedom, is that what you are now telling us?
MR KHOTLE: That is exactly what I'm saying, as long as I would get the freedom of my land, then I would do that.
MR STEENKAMP: I'm finished, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP
MR MALAN: I have one question please, Chair, that wasn't canvassed in either evidence or cross-examination.
Mr Bhani, when did you know that he would be coming to Welkom?
MR KHOTLE: I would say the time I spent, there would be a time when I would go down to Umtata and then I made a request that M'Afrika should be sent, and then I asked the Director of Operations to make the selection, because they were not there, so I was told that around May or April that M'Afrika would arrive, that is Bhani.
MR MALAN: And how did it come that you met up with him? Did he come to your place?
MR KHOTLE: Do you mean while I was in Welkom or in Umtata?
MR MALAN: Yes, yes, when he arrived in Welkom.
MR KHOTLE: He found me at the G Hostel in Welkom.
MR MALAN: Did you not meet with him at the taxi rank, weren't you waiting for him at the taxi rank?
MR KHOTLE: The person I waited for him at the taxi rank was Ngesi.
MR MALAN: Was that Ngesi?
MR KHOTLE: Ja.
MR MALAN: How did you know that he would be coming?
MR KHOTLE: There were specified days that I would - on a particular day I will get a phone, he arrived at Matusi Taxi Rank, there is a garage there and there is a telephone booth there, so I knew on a particular day I must go there at that particular time, then I will receive a call, although it's a public phone. I knew that I will receive a call on that public phone, so I was always present there to get such calls, so I knew there will be a person that will arrive at that time. That is how I knew that Bhani will arrive and that is how I knew that Ngesi will arrive.
MR MALAN: And were you told that you were to be replaced as Area Commander, Free State, Regional Commander, Free State?
MR KHOTLE: We had a discussion about that with the Director of Operations, because of the pressure I was under, I was aware that I would be called and be sent somewhere.
MR MALAN: Were you told who your successor would be?
MR KHOTLE: What I remember, they did not specify, but from my deduction I realised that the possible candidate will be Bhani, although they didn't say that specifically to me, I made that out of my deduction, that between Bhani and Ngesi, one of them will be my successor.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, this what came up during the Committee asked you questions about the question of the target, identifying. Can you tell the Committee what, in your training a soldier by APLA, your understanding and the understanding of the PAC, who was your enemy?
MR KHOTLE: In short I will say my enemy was the oppressor, so in South Africa the white people were the oppressors.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you were asked by the Chairman of the Committee that even whether it's the tourists or whatever, somebody visiting, it's the French people or, you would attack him if he is white?
MR KHOTLE: That is what I said. If I can explain that further, Mr Chairman. Firstly, you must remember that we have been oppressed for many years, more than 300 years we have been oppressed. When I was born, we were still oppressed. What is happening, even the whole world knew about the situation in South Africa, more especially when it comes to the oppression of the African people. So from their knowledge, I think they should have also understood that the situation was not conducive for them to come and visit here, because South Africa was at war, it was war against oppression.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, were you in your training told maybe about the tourists, that there will be times when you select targets that people who are there, though they will look as white people, they may be tourists,? Were you given training on how to identify that this person does not belong to this country, he's just a visitor or a tourist?
MR KHOTLE: No, it is not like that. In my training, I was never told that there'll be tourists. The only thing that I was told was that I was taught what I already knew then, I already knew the oppressor, it could be a Chinese or an Indian. This was not a question of racism, it was not something like that, it was the question of freedom, freedom from oppression. That is what I was told during my training.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, if your oppressor was a black, if I may use that word, an African, would you have done the same thing with the person?
MR KHOTLE: Like I've already said, oppression doesn't have colour. If the person who was oppressing the African was also an African, then it is clear that he will also be attacked. So what happened in Wesselsbron would also happen to him under such circumstances.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I only have one point I want to clarify, and I don't know whether I should do it with you or with your client. His new application which has been marked pages 10, 11, 12 and 13, have you got it before you, oh, you've given him your copy, sets the date for this incident as the 3rd of June. Everybody else says the 3rd of July?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think it's... (intervention).
CHAIRPERSON: Is it merely a mistake?
MR MBANDAZAYO: A mistake, Mr Chairman, because everybody agrees that it was the 3rd of July, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn until 9H30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
