ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. The incident we are now going to deal with is Zastron farm.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: It's in relation to Zastron, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) confirm with Mr Coetzer if he is involved in here.
MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson for the opportunity. We are not involved in the Zastron incident. May I then request you that we can be excused? As it pleases you.
CHAIRPERSON: Before I do so, Mr Mbandazayo earlier said he wanted to make statements about the farms. I wonder if those statements were for the ears of the Myburgs. Could you just apprise us of the situation?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I was going just to address on the PAC, on the policy regarding the farms, just briefly on that aspect. That's what I wanted to do, Chairperson, that what
was done by the applicants was indeed in line with the PAC policy and APLA. That's what I wanted to say.
CHAIRPERSON: But was that going to be for the ears of the Myburgs?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I wanted them to hear that the applicants indeed, this what they did, was not something personal to them but it was in terms of the whole policy framework of PAC and APLA.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I want you to do it now because I don't want to detain them here unnecessarily.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I - briefly Chairperson, that the terms of the PAC policy and APLA, they were not only to topple the then racist minority regime, but to eventually return the land to majority of the African people. The regarded the South African Defence Force, the South African Police and reservists, farmers and the white homes as bastions and minions of the regime, so hence they were regarded as targets, especially the farmers. They regarded them that they belonged to Commando structures, over and above the fact that they occupied the farms which they had to drive them away from, so as to widen their territorial operational base which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land. So it was based on that, their policy, the attack on farms, that they regarded them, you know they belonged to commando structures and also they occupied the vast land which in terms of the PAC policy that their policy was based on the land issue, that the land belongs to the African people, so the farmers were occupying those particular land and the vast majority of the land was in the hands of the farmers, so the policy was to drive away the farmers from those lands, so they have to be attacked and also to cripple the economy, as the country's economy was based on the farmers, so what they did was indeed in line with the PAC policy. That's what I wanted to say, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo Mr Coetzer, in all fairness, Mr and Mrs Myburg, are they still in the position they expressed after the other two applicants, or is there something more they want to say?
MR COETZER: Mr Chairperson, I'm just getting instructions from them. Mr Chairperson, it was placed under my attention that the purpose of my clients being here today was to see if they can get any reparation for what was done to them. They want to know that because of the suffering, they realise that it was done with a purpose, they would just like to know what is going to happen to them now.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Myburg, this Committee only deals with the aspect of amnesty, but there is another Committee that deals with reparation. They made certain recommendations to
the Government, but the Government will react on that as soon as a final report has been submitted from the TRC. The recommendation that has appeared in this document so far is that everybody will receive on the same level, there will not be reparations because for example a person lost an arm and another person is now paraplegic, it will be paid out on the same basis, an amount that the Government will decide on. It will depend on how many people will apply for reparation and how much money is available. If amnesty is granted in this case and if we find that it is a political deed, in that case we will then say that you will be classified as victims and then you will also have the right to make a claim for the same reparation of the other victims in other cases. That decision of how much or how it will be calculated, will be taken by the Government themselves and not by us.
MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, there are no further submissions.
CHAIRPERSON: We would once more thank you very much for having attended and made the process of reconciliation a possibility. We would, at this juncture, recuse you because you have heard too much and you have suffered pain and financial loss and proprietary losses, we say, but we should thank you very much and this I say on behalf of the whole Amnesty Committee, you may go well. Thank you very much.
MR COETZER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, may I be excused as well?
CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't detain you as well because I would be unfair to you Mr Coetzer, thank you very much. I recuse the three then, let me put it that way, you and your two clients. Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo ...(indistinct - mike not on) You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, is it correct that you were born in 1971 at Hoopstad in the Free State?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you grew up in the Wesselsbron where you did your primary education up to standard 6 in 1984?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1985 your family moved to Botshabelo, near Thaba N'chu where you left school in standard 8 due to financial problems?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1986 you joined PAC through AZANYU?
MR KHOTLE: Correct Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you left the country through Zimbabwe to Tanzania where you joined APLA and did your military training?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that after your military training, you came back inside the country and you were stationed at the Head Office under the command of Enox Zulu and Lettie Yanshoba?
MR KHOTLE: Correct Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1991 you were deployed in Free State?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were involved in seven operations and you have applied for amnesty for all of them?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Khotle, is it correct that some of the operations you were involved in, involves farm attacks?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that all other incidents in which you were involved in have been heard by the Amnesty Committee except the two Zastron farm attacks, which are the subject of hearing today?
MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Khotle, can you tell the Committee about the Zastron farm attacks and tell the Committee who planned the attacks, how many were you in the first attack and the second attack? Can you start with the first one?
MR KHOTLE: There are two attacks in which I was involved in Zastron. The first one, we were three, it was myself, Roger and Mduna. We had lots of cocktails, with the intention to go and attack at that particular farm. We arrived there and used molotovs. After that - there was no resistance which we encountered during that operation. We retreated back to Transkei. We burned the graze land. After that we crossed to Transkei. I'm not sure of the estimated damage, what I know is that the veld was burned. I'm not quite sure about the damage in the house, because we did not use many molotovs. We threw these molotovs through the windows, inside the house. After that we returned to Transkei.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you first, did you make any reconnaissance of the place and what did you discover during the reconnaissance of the place?
MR KHOTLE: The reconnaissance was done by Kleintjie but on the particular day of the attack, there was a problem because it was at night. The people who were involved in the reconnaissance were not able to do that during that time because it was at night. We decided that we should come back. When we returned we met Comrade Letlapa. Then he was briefed. Then the following day it was late when he returned, but I should be present so that I should lead the attack. All in all we were six and we split into two groups. In my group it was Roger who was involved in the reconnaissance, therefore I was led by him because of his observations during the reconnaissance. Therefore we split into - the second group involved Kleintjie, who was also involved in the reconnaissance. Therefore we executed the operation. The reason for the attack was that firstly it was an area which was used by whites and it is of benefit to the economy of the country because economically the white people there were helping to make the economy stable or grow and they also benefitted individually from that economy. Therefore again, the - secondly the far workers - the farmers were members of the Commando structures and some of them were reservists, therefore we wanted to increase the liberated zones so that when we progress as liberation army, we'll be able to use those places as a springboard for further attacks. That is why we intended to do that operation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you then, Mr Khotle, go to the second farm. Can you be able to specify and say this was this area in Zastron and the other one was in this area in Zastron? Are you able to tell the Committee exactly?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Or perhaps the dates of the attack.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Or as the Member of the Committee indicates, the dates of the attacks?
MR KHOTLE: I'm not sure of the names of the farms, what I remember is that one is near the river between Transkei and the Republic of South Africa, after you've passed Walazar. From Walazar you turn right. Walazar is in the Transkei and you turn right. It is within the - it is near the river where Walazar was and it bordered South Africa and Transkei. The other one is from the direction - it's near Cuthbert which is in the Transkei. Also from Cuthbert you turn left. That is the explanation I can offer about these farms. The other one is near bluegum, then from there you cross the river, then the farm is just near the river. That is the only explanation I can give in terms of the description of these two farms. Unfortunately I don't have sufficient details to offer this Committee.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you remember the dates, or you can't remember the dates or the year?
CHAIRPERSON: Page 35 gives an indication, could you confirm it?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Page 35 Chairperson, both of them I agree they were in 1992, Chairperson. I wondered whether he remembers maybe at the beginning or at the end, the other one, when was the first one and when the second one. Are you able to do that Mr Khotle?
MR KHOTLE: Yes, it was 1991, but I'm not sure of the months.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's say you were also involved in the Ficksburg attacks, let's take it from there because there you are able to say, to estimate and say, mid to late 1992. Now the Zastron attacks and the Ficksburg attack, which one took place first?
MR KHOTLE: Zastron operations happened first.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And was it before the Wesselsbron operation?
MR KHOTLE: The Wesselsbron operation was in 1993.
JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.
JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) round about 1991, 1992, is that correct, you operated in Zastron? You're not sure of the dates.
MR KHOTLE: In 1992 I was in Zastron.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then proceed? Go to the second incident Mr Khotle, just please tell the Committee about the second incident. How many were you and how were you armed?
MR KHOTLE
In this second operation we were five, it was myself, Scorpion Totina is one person, the third person was King, the fourth one was Roger, the fifth person was Kleintjie. The reconnaissance for that attack was done by me. There was a problem. There was a house, supposed to be occupied by the owner of the farm and there were also houses supposed to be occupied by the employees and there was also a place where the cows were fed. Now that was the - there was a problem. We noticed that either way, the owners of the farm do not live there. They took Africans and they made them live in that house that was supposed to be occupied by them. As a result we decided, yes, even if it was occupied by an African, but it qualified to be the target. This does not mean Africans were automatically targets because they were in that house, we thought they were being used as shields and we had to minimise so that at the end the operation is carried, but there are no injuries, that is referring to the farm workers, so that not one of them gets injured.
I was armed with a 7.65. We had a stun gun as well and we had Molotovs and we had grenades that were not functioning well, the mechanism was not working well, but we took them anyway, so that at the time of throwing the molotovs, the information we do not have is correct, we'd throw them in the fire and they will explode through the help of the fire.
So we left then for the farm and on our arrival, that is when we approached, many dogs approached us. We advanced towards them and they shied away to another room, where we threw the molotovs and people screamed inside, they cried. Now that was the impression, the impression that I got out of that was that the people who were crying were the farm workers. Now I concluded that they were being used as shields, the owners of the house were not in the house, they might have been living in town. Now during the course of throwing these molotovs, I took out another instruction. I said the throwing of molotovs should be stopped, only to find that they had been thrown already and then we retreated. Kenny, who has since died, had the grenades and the sabotaged hand grenades. The initial instruction was not to throw the grenade in case it is noticed that the occupiers of the house are Africans, but during this whole incident, it happened that he dropped the grenade.
We thereafter retreated and then we burned the veld and we went back to the Transkei. I wanted to know, at a certain point, who was left where and whether there were any casualties and that is where I learned that Kenny dropped that sabotaged hand grenade and that was the end of the operation.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was anybody injured by this hand grenade?
MR KHOTLE: It did not explode Sir and to my knowledge it never exploded.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct to say at the present moment you are still standing trial for those farm attacks?
MR KHOTLE: After being granted amnesty - no, no, I was granted amnesty and the charges were withdrawn.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it - oh you were never charged for these two incidents?
MR KHOTLE: No, no, I'm sorry, I was confusing them with the Ficksburg issues, I was not charged on these two.
CHAIRPERSON: But doesn't your application somewhere say charges about the farm attacks and a date has been given to when the matter has been postponed? If you have regard to page 37, no, no ...
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may explain, it was the Ficksburg incidents in which the amnesty hearing has already been heard and he was granted amnesty and the charges were subsequently withdrawn after he was granted amnesty.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. It was a little confusing when I read it.
MR MBANDAZAYO: These two, he was never charged for these two instances Chairperson. That's the evidence, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, any questions?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson I have one or two questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Khotle, at what stage did you realise that there were farm employees living in the main house? Was it during your reconnaissance or after you - at the time you went to attack?
MR KHOTLE: No, I said during the reconnaissance I became aware that this house could be occupied by Africans. Now at the time of issuing out orders within the unit, I made them aware that it could happen that that house, the owners are not residing in the house, they are somewhere in town and the house is occupied by Africans and I said, as a precautionary measure, in case it's an African staying in that house, I was not certain, but all indications pointed to the fact that it was Africans staying in that house, I said to them: "In case it's an African staying in that house, the use of hand grenade would be cancelled and even if we throw the molotovs, during the course they would be restrained: and I did restrain them from throwing the molotovs but it was already late, they had been all thrown.
MS MTANGA: Your decision not to throw the hand grenades and to only throw the molotovs, how was it going to ensure that the people inside, if they happen to be farm employees, would not be injured?
MR KHOTLE: There are two sides in the whole process of the struggle and there had been instances where Africans were affected. In this case we - yes, it pained us a lot to notice that the Africans occupied that house and while the matter of the fact was not to really accommodate them there, they were being used as shock absorbers, so to say. That is why then I'm saying it was one way for them to learn, but then we had to avoid a lesson - we had to teach a lesson but we had to avoid some situations. In other words, we had to teach them that they allowed themselves to be the shock absorbers on behalf of the europeans. It was not a question of, that they were intended and at the end it was expected that there should be fatalities, no it wasn't.
MS MTANGA: Mr Khotle, how can you say when a farmer allows his employees to use his main house, he's using them? Why are you saying that he was using them, when he allowed them to use his house?
MR KHOTLE: There was an awareness already among the farming community that APLA was stepping up with its activities and most of the farmers decided then that the best way was to live in towns and at the same time using the farm workers.
MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Adv Sandi?
ADV SANDI: I think I don't have a question.
CHAIRPERSON: Surely you don't have any re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: That concludes your case with Mr Khotle?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Khotle, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I've just consulted with my brothers. We don't need to hear any submissions. That refers to your as well Ms Mtanga. Does this bring us to the conclusion of these hearings?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle, if you are still - oh yes, you're still here. The Committee reserves its decision because you have spoken of some applications you have made, you should be aware that the decision should be in writing and it would be done as soon as possible in respect of what it did and it goes for all your comrades as well. Mr Mbandazayo, we do reserve this one. You would be informed in due course just to be on the safe side.
This brings us to the conclusion of the hearings here. Firstly I want to thank the members of Correctional Services. They gave us an outstanding service. I think it's the first that I had such prompt attendance of inmates brought by the Department of Correctional Services. This is highly appreciated. Should we call upon you again to do the same, please know that your duties are appreciated by this Committee and you are making our job easier. I want to thank the Church for having made this wonderful venue available to us to conduct these hearings. We are very grateful to the church and the personnel they have made available and I must say for also spoiling us with the food we have had. I think I have picked up a few kilogrammes which I will have problems in shedding. I want to thank you Mr Mbandazayo. You had the longest serving in these hearings. Thank you for your assistance. Ms Mtanga, thank you for the wonderful work you have done, it was so easy to follow. Thank you very much and we say, you keep it up and that goes to show that we have people who care in the Amnesty Committee.
You know there are people you seldom see who are caged in boxes on my left. They do a wonderful job. You could remember at some time I would say to the applicants: "Please slow down because they've got to catch up with you" and we seldom thank them. I want to say thank you very much. And to everybody who has shown interest in these hearings, we thank you very much, your attendance is highly appreciated.
This hearing is adjourned but that does not say you would not have something to eat. Please have it even though you'll pick up kilos like me. Charmaine I'm always with you and I'm always saying privately thank you, but let me say it in public. Thank you very much for your assistance to us. We're adjourned.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps it's time that we should thank the Chairman too for leading this hearing and the way he did it. Thank you very much Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you my brother.
HEARING ADJOURNS
