Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. This is a continuation of the hearing of the applications of Messrs Antonie Jagga, Lesize Michael Jantjie, Colin Anthony Peckenham Robertshaw, Daele Daniel Thulo. This hearing started at JISS Centre in Johannesburg, in the suburb of Mayfair. This hearing was heard on the 10th, 12th and 13th of October this year. It was adjourned then. Because of unforeseen circumstances, we could not conclude the hearing and it was postponed to today here in Bloemfontein.

For the record, I am Motata, I will be chairing this hearing and I'll ask the Panel Members to put their names on record.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Lax is the name, L-a-x, Member of the Amnesty Committee.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My name is J B Sibanyoni, a Member of the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would ask the legal representatives to place themselves on record and I will start with the legal representatives of the applicants.

MR VISSER: May it please you, Chairperson. My name is Visser, instructed by Wagener Muller Attorneys of Pretoria, I appear for all four the applicants still, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. For the victims?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Malindi, M-a-l-i-n-d-i, I appear for the families of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malindi. Mr Koopedi, are you also still going to interchangeably ... I don't know what the arrangement is.

MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear on behalf of the victims.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. I am Mapoma, I'm the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Visser, are we ready?

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, as ready as we'll ever be. But if you will forgive me to take this opportunity before we commence to, on behalf of our team, to congratulate you on your permanent appointment to the Judiciary of the Transvaal Provincial Division. We're certainly looking forward to receiving many good Judgments from your hand, and we are hoping that we might be able to appear before and enjoy it as much as we've done appearing before you before the Commission. I just thought that I'd like to say that, I hope you won't find that out of order.

CHAIRPERSON: I must thank you very much, Mr Visser, because we are in the same division. I hope our meeting is not going to end with the Amnesty. I'm indebted to you and I hope I shall make you proud on the bench.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, we have two witnesses left, two applicants, Thulo and Robertshaw. The order in which we propose to call them is first to call Mr Thulo, his application you will find in the bundle at page 23 onwards, Chairperson. He is ready and available and he's willing to take the oath. He has made two requests Chairperson, to me, as far as translation is concerned. First is that I would ask my questions to him in Afrikaans, not in English, because he feels more comfortable with that. And secondly, that he would like to address you in Southern Sotho. I take it that there will be an appropriate Interpreter available.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may just ask Mr Mapoma. We've got provision in our interpretation, don't we?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, we do Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It is all in order. May I just interrupt and say I don't have a pen, I don't know for what reason. Probably I'm being discriminated upon with my new office.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, you are also an applicant in the amnesty applications which deal with the matters of Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya, Tax Sejanamane and Mbulelo Ngono, also known as KK, is that correct? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

INTERPRETER: Just a minute. Just a technical hitch, Chairperson, apparently there's just the Afrikaans relay.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll afford you a minute for the engineers to fix the problem. Could you bear with us, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

TECHNICIANS SORT OUT PROBLEM WITH SOUND EQUIPMENT

INTERPRETER: The English went out on the wrong channel, if the legal representative could just ask his question again.

MR VISSER: I will do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, you are an applicant in this application and this deals with the persons Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya, Tax Sejanamane, Mbulelo Ngono, also known as KK, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You've submitted a written application in terms of the Act, it appears in the bundle from page 23, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Depending on what you're going to say today, do you confirm the contents of this statement as being the truth?

MR THULO: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also gave instructions to your legal representatives and a statement on your evidence was compiled, it appears from page 29A to E, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you also confirm the contents of that statement?

MR THULO: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: On page 29A you referred to your application, paragraph 7A and B on page 23, and you gave the instruction that you would like to apply for an amendment, that paragraph 7A must read

"National Party"

and 7B must read:

"Supporter"

MR THULO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell the Chairperson and the Members of the Committee why you made this amendment?

MR THULO: Firstly, I wanted to explain that at the time of this incident I was working for the then government, which was the National Party then. I believe that in my relationship with that government, I was the same as the person who was supporting that government. Thank you, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: In other words, that what you did was indeed in support of the South African Government, in its struggle against the freedom alliances, or freedom fighters?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: On page 29A, you also referred to the document, the General Background to Amnesty Applications, which usually serves as Exhibit A in front of the Committee, and you also told me that there are certain paragraphs that you cannot confirm in that document. And those paragraphs appear on page 29A. Does that correlate with the knowledge that you have and the experience that you had in the Security Branch, in the time when you worked for them?

MR THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR VISSER: You also mentioned on page 29B, the identity of certain informers and you made the point there that because you heard that all these victims had indeed became informers of the Security Branch and because they are victims, you had to disclose their identities, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you have a problem in disclosing the names and identities of other informers who are not victims?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why is it so that you do not want to identify them or disclose their identities?

MR THULO: The first reason is that because they are not victims, therefore I'm not supposed to expose them. And then again, even to protect their safety. Again my legal counsel will be able to explain further in that regard.

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, on page 24, paragraph 4 you mentioned in your amnesty application, or you incorporated Mr Jantjie's amnesty application in yours. This hearing started on the 10th of October, where you present when this hearing started?

MR THULO: I was there in the beginning, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: At the last hearing on the 10th of October, were you present there?

MR THULO: I was not present in the initial hearing, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where were you?

MR THULO: I was not present, Chairperson, because I was sick then, therefore I was unable to be present.

MR VISSER: In other words, you did not hear Mr Jantjie's evidence.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also mentioned in your amnesty application that you were not involved in the initial discussions with Betty Boom, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what you know about that is what was told to you, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well. We have heard that the Security Branch of Ladybrand used a place where they had discussions with informers of the Ladybrand district, is that correct?

MR THULO: I just want to highlight that in terms of my knowledge that area which was used, it was for the first time it was used in this incident. That's my knowledge.

MR VISSER: Do you agree that this place, I think they refer to it as a farm, was used by you for approximately two months in this relevant period of time?

MR THULO: I think that is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you at any stage participate in any discussion to convince any of these victims to become an informer?

MR THULO: I was not present in any of such discussions, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: We will discuss this again at a later stage. If we can now page to page 29C. As far as your recollection goes Mr Thulo, when did the events take place concerning these four people?

MR THULO: This incident happened in 1987, in December, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why are you so sure of this date?

MR THULO: The reason why I'm able to recall this is because it was at the time when I was busy preparing my son's baptism.

MR VISSER: Was your son's name Maleke, M-a-l-e-k-e Isaac, I-s-a-a-c Thulo?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And in which church was he baptised?

MR THULO: He was baptised at St Joseph's Anglican Church in Ladybrand. I think I'm mistaken, it's not Ladybrand but Ficksburg, the Anglican Church in Ficksburg.

MR VISSER: On what date was he baptised?

MR THULO: Chairperson, he was baptised on the 24th of December 1987.

MR VISSER: And have you checked that date yesterday to make certain that that is the date of his baptism?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I verified that date and I have evidence in that regard.

MR VISSER: Now why do you associate the date of the baptism with the incidents which took place surrounding these victims?

MR THULO: Chairperson, to relate this incident and the baptism is because at that time I was at work and then I did not request a leave. So I did not have enough time, at work I would request for some to go and prepare for this baptism.

MR VISSER: Now at the time in December 1987, were you then a member of the Security Branch of Ladybrand?

MR THULO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was your rank?

MR THULO: I was a Detective-Sergeant.

MR VISSER: Under whose command did you stand?

MR THULO: My Commander at that time was Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: And under whose command did he stand?

MR THULO: Mr Fouche, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was your main task?

MR THULO: At that time it was to gather intelligence for the unit I was working with.

MR VISSER: Information concerning whom?

MR THULO: Intelligence against the liberation movements. I would mention the ANC, PAC and BCM and other liberation movements which I'm not able to recall now.

MR VISSER: Did you have your own informers?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you handle informers together with either Mr Jagga or Mr Jantjie?

MR THULO: We were handling these informers together.

MR VISSER: Did you know who the informers were of those two people?

MR THULO: I knew some of them, Chairperson, but I did not know some of them.

MR VISSER: Very well. You say in paragraph 8 on page 29C, that in that time there were approximately 30 ANC MK members active in Lesotho, is that correct?

MR THULO: Chairperson, that's the knowledge we had then.

MR VISSER: Did that amount remain constant, or did some people leave and others come back or what was the position?

MR THULO: I would not commit myself that it remained in that way, it could have changed, that others would leave, others would stay. So I would not testify that that number remained the same.

MR VISSER: If we can limit ourselves to the ANC or MK, what did they do in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson. In terms of my knowledge, these ANC or MK were using Lesotho as a springboard for their attacks against South Africa.

MR VISSER: And did you then work in Lesotho to gather information or intelligence?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: To find out where they were going to launch their attacks, where people will infiltrate, etcetera?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you sometimes accompany Mr Jantjie and Jagga and work together with them in Lesotho?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And did you make contact in bars, in shebeens, with members or supporters of MK?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If we can deal with Betty Boom. You say there that you became aware that Jantjie and Jagga recruited Betty Boom in Lesotho as an informer. Now what I'd like you to do is to tell the Committee how you knew this.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was informed by Jantjie that they found Betty Boom and from there they recruited her as one of their informers.

MR VISSER: What was your involvement in Betty Boom, can you tell us?

MR THULO: Do you mean when she was an informer in Lesotho, or when she was in South Africa? In which period are you talking about?

MR VISSER: How did you make contact with Betty Boom, you personally?

MR THULO: I contacted Betty Boom when we went to fetch her in Lesotho to bring her to South Africa.

MR VISSER: Who gave the instruction to do that?

MR THULO: That is Robertshaw, he instructed me to go and take Betty Boom.

MR VISSER: And who accompanied you in this incident when you went to Lesotho?

MR THULO: We were four, it was myself, Mr Jantjie, Mr Jagga and Mr Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: You were four people who worked in the gathering of information, you worked as a group, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well. Did anyone say anything to you that Betty Boom will be abducted on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: May you repeat your question, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Did anyone tell you that Betty Boom was going to be abducted, or what was the position?

MR THULO: On that day I was given instructions that I should accompany these three people to Lesotho. There was no mention of abduction, I was just told we should go and fetch this person from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: What vehicle did you use?

MR THULO: We used a Volkswagen Microbus.

MR VISSER: Who drove the vehicle?

MR THULO: I was the driver that day, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what happened when you entered Lesotho?

MR THULO: We entered Lesotho, we went to a particular place where I was instructed to go, the place is called Ditabaneng. When we just entered Ditabaneng, I was instructed to stop at a particular place. I did so. After ten to fifteen minutes Betty Boom appeared and entered the car and then returned.

MR VISSER: Did she freely get into the car?

MR THULO: If she was forced to enter the car, there could have been a confrontation, but it seems she entered at her own will.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to say according to you, forget if there was any confrontation, what happened when she appeared within ten to fifteen minutes? Did she voluntarily enter the car?

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson. She was not forced to enter.

MR VISSER: Did she have anything with her?

MR THULO: She had a bag.

MR VISSER: Do you know what was in the bag?

MR THULO: I believe that there were some clothes inside.

MR VISSER: And where did you go then?

MR THULO: We returned to Ladybrand and then we proceeded to the farm where we were instructed to take her to.

MR VISSER: Have you been on this farm before, or is this the first time that you've been there?

MR THULO: It was for the first time, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well. What happened there, what happened with Betty Boom on the farm?

MR THULO: We arrived at that farm, we disembarked, all of us, we entered a particular house. That is where Betty, Antonie Jagga, Jantjie and Robertshaw entered a particular room, then I was at a separate room.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in any of the discussions with Betty Boom, concerning her recruitment or her information?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything else to do with her in any other way?

MR THULO: There as a time when I was together with her when these three people were doing other things. So in other words, I was just guarding her.

MR VISSER: So you were guarding her and would you say that you were consistently guarding her, or what was the position?

MR THULO: I was not guarding her at all times. At the time when these three people I've mentioned were busy with something, then I would be requested to guard her at that time.

MR VISSER: Now we have heard that Betty Boom spent a certain period of time on the farm, would you be able to tell us what your recollection is of the length of time that she spent on the farm?

MR THULO: I think it may be approximately four days.

MR VISSER: And did you see her on every one of those four days or were there some of those days that you were not present on the farm?

MR THULO: I've already explained Chairperson, that at that time I was busy with the baptismal preparations, so therefore there would be days when I would be absent from the farm.

MR VISSER: Could you generally tell the Committee regarding the border control at the Maseru bridge, how was the control there?

MR THULO: At that time Chairperson, the control of the two borders was under our responsibilities, therefore there would not be a day where we would be stopped and requested to produce passports or identity documents.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean under your control?

MR THULO: I said the control at that time was lax, then at times we were not requested to produce passports.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

You did not intend to say that the border control was under your control? That is not what you said?

MR THULO: I was not stating that it was under our control, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Jagga explained to the Committee that one could obtain a border document, do you know anything about that?

MR THULO: He was not mentioning documents, he was speaking of a pass for six months without your passport being stamped.

MR VISSER: Very well. And did you have such a pass?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I would testify that I still have that pass.

MR VISSER: You still have one like that today?

MR THULO: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You don't have it here by any chance?

MR THULO: I think it's in my car, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Perhaps you could show it to the Committee later, just for interest's sake.

CHAIRPERSON: I would be interested in that, I would like to see that later.

MR VISSER: I only heard this morning that he in fact still has one.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not sure what your arrangements is going to be as far as tea is concerned, I don't know whether you want to take the tea adjournment now. I've got one more question about Betty Boom and then I am going on to Nomasonto.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just finish Betty Boom, then we'll take the tea adjournment thereafter.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

While Betty Boom was there on the farm, did you or any other person that you saw, ever assault her?

MR THULO: Not according to my knowledge and not in my presence. If a thing of that kind would happen you'd be able to see some signs of assault. So there's not time during my presence where I saw a person assaulting her.

MR VISSER: Were her hands and feet bound, or was she chained in any way while she was held on the farm?

MR THULO: Chairperson, at the time when I was guarding her she was not chained.

MR VISSER: And why were you guarding her, what was the purpose behind that?

MR THULO: I've already stated that I would be called to guard her at the particular time when these people were busy with something, then at a particular time they would come and take over.

MR VISSER: Just to prevent her escaping?

INTERPRETER: I didn't hear the question.

MR LAX: I was just trying to interpose and you obviously couldn't hear me.

MR VISSER: No, I didn't hear you, no, no.

MR LAX: The question was, why were you guarding her and you haven't answered that. Why was it necessary to guard her?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was given instructions to guard her.

MR LAX: So you don't know why you were guarding her, you were just told to guard her?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, that was the culture, I was not given reasons why I should execute some instructions. Like for example, I was just told to guard her, then I did.

MR LAX: And how did you guard her?

MR THULO: I would be with her in that particular room where she was.

MR LAX: So she wasn't allowed to leave that room, you made sure she stayed in that room all the time. Is that what you're saying?

MR THULO: Chairperson, she would be allowed to go out of that room if she goes to a washroom.

MR LAX: But was that the only time she was allowed out?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And why did you think you were guarding her?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I thought that I had to guard her because of the instructions, so that she would be able to be available at the time when they need her.

MR LAX: Well did you think she might escape?

MR THULO: If you think, Chairperson, of certain possibilities, if you tell me to guard a person or something, the first reason which would come to mind - I would give certain reasons, firstly I would think that that person would run away or other people would come and steal that person. So during this incident I thought that they did not want Betty Boom to run away or to disappear.

MR SIBANYONI: While you're still on that, I'm sorry.

How would it happen whenever you had to leave, were you supposed to ensure that somebody else takes over from you guarding her?

MR THULO: At all times when I'm supposed to leave, I've already explained to my legal counsel that I had particular duties to do, then I would request my seniors that I have to leave, then they would bring somebody to come and take my place in guarding her.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you guarding her only during the day or even at night?

MR THULO: There was no time when I guarded her during the night.

MR LAX: Do you perhaps know where was she spending the night?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I did not know but I believed that she was staying in that farm.

MR SIBANYONI: So if I may perhaps a leading question, the impression you got was that she was under captivity, she was always under your control, under the control of the police?

MR THULO: I believed that. I had that idea that this person is not free, she's under the police guard because one of those reasons is that I was given that responsibility to guard her.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were aware that Jantjie and Jagga were using her as an informer, would an informer be guarded in the way you did?

MR THULO: Something was happening at that time. As I've already explained earlier, some of the informers which were handled by these three people, I know some and I did not know some of them, so I did not know the position of Betty Boom and the reasons behind why she should be guarded at all times.

CHAIRPERSON: No, if you have regard to paragraph 11 on page ...(end of side A of tape)

"... had recruited Betty Boom as an informer in Lesotho."

What were you aware of, what information was she giving if she has to be guarded the way she was?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was informed by Jantjie that Betty Boom was one of their informers.

CHAIRPERSON: So was it not surprising to you that you had to guard somebody who was giving information to the intelligence community in Ladybrand?

MR THULO: Chairperson, as I've already stated that I knew some of them and I did not know some of them. I would explain further by saying that it may be one of the ways which they used to speak with their informers, because I was new in that unit, therefore I did not know everything.

CHAIRPERSON: When you joined this unit, how long before this incident did you join?

MR THULO: I joined this unit two years in the Special Branch, but I started to work with this unit at the beginning of 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately when, because we know this happened in December and you remembered this precisely because your son had been baptised during December, how long before December?

MR THULO: I would say it's seven months before, with this unit which was working in Lesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Before you do, just one last thing on this issue that worries me.

You've told us this person came to the car voluntarily, she got into the car of her own free will, right?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now why was it necessary to guard someone who did that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I would repeat, as a new person in that unit and then again Betty was an informer of other gentlemen, I did not have a full knowledge about her status. Therefore, I just received instructions from them, then I executed them.

MR LAX: But you see, that's not correct what you're telling us, because you've already told us two things that changed that. You've told us, one, that you were told that she was an informer, you've told us secondly, that you were going to accompany them to fetch her, and you've told us thirdly, that it was a voluntary fetching on her part. So you already knew she was an informer before you went to Lesotho to fetch her.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I want to clarify this issue. I was told about Betty Boom, that she was an informer, but I did not accompany these people when they were going to contact her. Then she came to the car at her free will because she had contact with them before. And then for her to come to the farm and be under my guard, I want to explain to the Chairperson that I did not know the situation or the reasons behind that instruction which I was given to guard her.

MR LAX: Just one last thing before you carry on, Mr Visser.

Who else came to guard? You've said that when you wanted to go somewhere you would tell your superiors and they would make sure someone else came to guard her. Who else came to guard her?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I would tell Mr Jantjie, I did not have the identity of the person who would come and take my place, because I would just tell Mr Jantjie and leave immediately.

MR LAX: But you see you've already told us that you guarded her when the three of them were not present. So who did you contact when they were not present when you had to go away?

MR THULO: Chairperson, maybe you did not understand me. When I mentioned that when they were not present, I would say there were two rooms, at a time they would be with Betty Boom in a particular room, then I will be at a particular room. At a time they would leave and then I would say if they were not in that particular room, not that they were absent from the farm, but from the particular room where Betty Boom was.

MR LAX: Well you see, your evidence before was that they had to go and do other things.

MR VISSER: No, I think there's a misunderstanding, Chairperson, he said that sometimes he had to go and do other things.

MR LAX: No, no, no.

MR VISSER: Well that's how I heard it.

MR LAX: He said the reason he had to guard her was in their absence, they had to go and do other business and other work. That was his evidence.

MR THULO: I still want to clarify this position. When I mentioned that, when I said when they were not there, I meant when they were not in the room where Betty Boom was, but they were still within the vicinity of the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you mentioned "when they were doing other duties I would guard her", you mean duties within that farm, or what do you mean?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I did not say outside the farm or outside the house, I would say at the time when they were outside Betty Boom's room they would go somewhere within the building, but I did not say outside the house or outside the farm. I would say they would go and do their business, but I did not know exactly what they were doing or what they were talking about, but outside the room where Betty Boom was, but not outside the house, not outside the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you mean then on paragraph 9, 29C

"In order to collect information, I and my colleagues had already established various informers in Lesotho since 1985, from whom we received valuable information."

I'm asking you this because you answered that you joined this unit approximately seven months before this incident. That question is based on that.

MR THULO: If I understood your question, I arrived at the branch in 1985, but I was not within the unit which worked in Lesotho. I joined that unit in 1987. That was my explanation. I wanted to say there were informers which were handled by this unit which was working in Lesotho. and when I arrived there I was given some of them to use them.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you this because immediately if you look at paragraph 10 on the same page, you say, after saying you had these various informers who gave you valuable information, you come back and say in paragraph 10 immediately

"Sometimes I visited bars with Jantjie and Jagga, where we would make very valuable connections with the activists."

MR THULO: Chairperson, I request that you repeat your question, I did not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: I say why I asked you that, you said you joined this unit of the other three and you became the fourth person, but in the supplementary affidavit before me, on page 29C, 9, it says you had various informers in Lesotho since 1985, and you proceed into paragraph 10 and it say you made frequent visits with Jantjie and Jagga to drinking places, bars - let me put it in perspective, where you had connections and obtained valuable information from activists, or made contact with activists.

MR THULO: I want clarify that when I joined in 1985, there was a unit which was responsible for Lesotho and then they had already had informers in Lesotho and when I joined this particular unit in 1987, I was given the responsibility of handling other informers. And then when I stated that I used to go to Lesotho, I mentioned that particular group which was given to me to handle.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

In other words, what you are trying to say is that Betty Boom was under house arrest. That's what it boils down to, isn't that so?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I would say so, because I was guarding her.

MR VISSER: And upon a question put by Mr Lax, you have already stated that she was not free to go wherever she pleased and that in that manner she was restricted.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I just want to tell you that the Panel would like to hear whether you know that if Betty Boom was an informer, why it would have been necessary for her to be put under house arrest.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't know as to whether my clarification would be acceptable. As I did not know the relationship of these two with Betty Boom, I found myself being given this responsibility to guard her. As to whether why did I guard her, being an informer, I did not know. Those who were my seniors then would give a better explanation why was it responsible(?) for me to guard Betty Boom, being an informer.

MR VISSER: You did not know how reliable she was?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I did not know.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that concludes Betty Boom. I don't know whether you want to take the adjournment for tea now, or whether you wish to go on.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the tea adjournment and we'll take fifteen minutes. We adjourn for tea.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: In my possession I've been handed, or rather, I have Mr Thulo's South African passport which was handed to me during tea and you'll recall that he was telling us about this six months entry without having your passport stamped. Am I putting it correctly? May I just ask something in this respect. Mr Thulo, I notice that you can go in for periods of six months in and out of Lesotho with this document, as you explained in your evidence-in-chief. Would I be right? Just to reaffirm it.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just, this is what I want to know. When you have a stamp of this nature, it would appear that when you go through this stamp of entry and exit allows you just to go in without further stamping. Would I be correct in that respect?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now for easy access and checking wouldn't you show it to the authorities at the border gates?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I recall that for them to look for other things and to see this kind of a stamp, it is the reason why we had to have this pass, so that we should not at all times produce our passport or our identity document.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they know you at these border gates as those persons with such type of document?

MR THULO: I believed so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So do I understand you to say that because you had this you didn't have to go to the customs authorities, you just had to go without showing it to them?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Before Mr Lax asks anything I would ask somebody to show it to the other legal representatives. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair.

Sorry Mr Thulo, I'm just a little bit puzzled. This document is actually stamped into your passport, it's a stamp, it's not a document, it's a stamp that's in your passport, that says you have unrestricted access, or words to that effect, for six months at a time. Isn't that so?

MR THULO: I explained earlier, Chairperson, that it's not a separate document but it's a stamp within your passport, so that at all times immediately when they see this stamp they know that you have access or you have a pass for six months.

CHURCH BELL TOLLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed. I'm sorry about that Mr Thulo, because I would miss some other things. Oh, there it goes again.

INTERPRETER: And I just told him to drink some water, because he wants to cough out.

CHAIRPERSON: No bell tolls more than three times, I think we can safely proceed.

CHURCH BELL TOLLS AGAIN

MR LAX: All the theories fly out the window.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'm sorry about that, but in all fairness to you, Mr Thulo, I would request my Committee Member to state his question again to you, not that you should start from the middle. I'll allow him to do that.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, the thrust of my question, and I'm going to start at the beginning where we left off from the Chairperson, and this that - and you've already confirmed this, that this is a stamp in your passport, it's not a separate document as such.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And when you get to the border you obviously have to show your passport to someone and show them that you have this stamp in it?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So you do actually stop at the border, show your passport and then you're entitled to proceed?

MR THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR LAX: Were you known at the border?

MR THULO: I believe so, Chairperson, that I was known.

MR LAX: Who were you known by at the border?

MR THULO: I need some light in regard to the question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: There are two parts to the question. Which people knew you at the border, was it the border guards themselves, was it the police, was it the immigration officials, was it everybody?

MR THULO: Chairperson, the people who knew me were those who were members of the South African Police and who were working at the border gate.

MR LAX: And then on the Lesotho side?

MR THULO: They knew me, Chairperson, no by my true identity or by name.

MR LAX: Well did you show them a different passport when you got to the Lesotho side?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So if somebody looked at your passport, how would they not know your name?

MR THULO: I would say they did not know me, particularly in the Lesotho border. When we passed there we were not calling ourselves by our true name. When I passed there they would say: "It's okay. Leave". I did not hear at a particular time, hearing people from Lesotho calling me by my name.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow. They wouldn't do that, because you produce a document, they see the document, there's the name Thulo, Michael Daele and then they would say: "pass". Or did you expect them to call you and say: "Mr Thulo, go past"?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I thought so.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take when you came back with Ms Betty Boom, what exactly happened, did you just drive through, or you produced your South African passport? Bear in mind that the four of you went in, when you came back you were now five. Because when you went in, Betty Boom was not there and when you came back she was in your company. What happened, what did you do at the Lesotho border gate where you had to produce documents?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I do not recall producing our documents, because when I arrived I would greet and say: "I'm now going. They would say: "Okay, proceed". I do not remember the border officials asking me the contents of the car or asking us questions, because from the Lesotho border they would not know with whom I was when I entered and with whom am I leaving when I left.

CHAIRPERSON: This is personal knowledge which I'm asking you, if you don't know, say "I don't". You were four when you entered, that is Jantjie, Jagga and Robertshaw, when you greeted them did you get the impression that they knew the other three? That is getting into Lesotho.

MR THULO: I believed they knew them, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: And they obviously knew you by your face?

MR THULO: Let me clarify that. From the Lesotho side, those people knew us by face and they would, they knew us, then from the South African border some officials knew us by names.

MR LAX: Let me just put it in a simply way to you. How many times in the seven months that you were a member of this unit, as you've told us, did you go into and out of Lesotho? How many trips did you make to Lesotho?

MR THULO: I went there several times, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Several times. What do you mean by several times? Was it twenty, was it a hundred, was it more than a hundred?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I would say I entered there several times, at times I would go there in my official capacity, at times I would go there in my personal capacity, so it will be difficult to estimate, but it's many times.

MR LAX: Just in terms of your duties, you've already told us you used to go - I mean, paragraph 10 says

"I sometimes went with Jagga and Jantjie to bars to visit there ..."

etcetera. How many times did you go with them?

MR THULO: I would not be able to recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Was it enough times for the people at the border to get to know who you were or at least know you by sight?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we were known at the border gates.

MR LAX: And what were you known as? Particularly on the Lesotho side.

MR THULO: Those who were border officials, they knew that we were members of the Police, even if they did not know which branch of the Police we were working.

MR LAX: And isn't it so that even if they knew you were abducting someone into South Africa, they wouldn't have done anything about it? They wouldn't have asked you any questions, they would have just let you go through.

MR THULO: I don't have enough knowledge, Chairperson, I don't want to commit myself.

MR LAX: Well were you ever stopped taking someone out of Lesotho, when you were driving?

MR THULO: It did not happen, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just one last thing, Chair, before we move on to this next thing.

The last question Mr Visser put to you just before tea was that one of the reasons why you were guarding her, as far as you knew, was that you didn't know how reliable she was, but the fact of the matter is that you didn't know why you were guarding her, you didn't know anything about her.

MR THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps before Mr Visser goes on, if I may be allowed, I need to hand over this document, hand it back or over, but before I do that I need to clarify it in my notes and I would indebted to get some assistance, I'm not sure what this is. Is it a document that shows that this applicant was able to go in and out of Lesotho as he says he did?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) for six months.

MR KOOPEDI: If that is the case, Chairperson, I believe that we would need to have a document that was issued then, this document was only issued in 1999, and therefore I have a problem in classifying it as to what is it.

CHAIRPERSON: He said it's a specimen because it's got a document that shows that kind of stamp, but it is not the original. In what you are saying, that we should have had a document that was used in 1987, but he said he just had a specimen.

MR KOOPEDI: This is a specimen?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he wants to show us that even with the present document he has, the same stamp is used.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay Chairperson, I just needed to understand the purpose of this.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he wanted just to give the Panel an indication of what kind of document he had then, because it doesn't differ from that. Are you happy with that?

MR KOOPEDI: I understand, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. I was just wondering whether for purposes of the record, I shouldn't just give a brief description of what those documents are, for in case it may become important, not that I can see it, but it will take only a second. Perhaps if I could have it back.

MR LAX: Mr Visser, to save you time, the Chair's already done that, the Chair called it a passport, which is what it is.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes. No, I don't intend to criticise the Chairperson at all, all I wanted to say Chairperson, is that there are in fact two stamps. That's the first point. The first stamp is one obviously stamped by the South African authorities and that is done, apparently, in terms of Section 6(2) and/or Section 35(2) of the Aliens Control Act 1991, that is Act 96/91. I wanted to draw your attention to the fact, Chairperson, that there is no space for a name on this stamp, clearly because it is meant to go into a passport and the name of the person would appear from the passport. There's only a space for conditions, which was left blank here. The place was left blank, etcetera, so it would seem that you could enter Lesotho at any border post.

From the South African side and into the South African side with that stamp, and the same goes for the Lesotho one, which does not specify any revision of any Act, but simply gives the dates and it is signed by, or it's proposed to be signed by the Director of Immigration, and it simply says that the entry and exists will be between the hours of 06H00 in the morning to 22H00 in the evening. That's all I wanted to say Chairperson, for whatever that may be worth. Could this be handed back to Mr Thulo please?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly. Mr Malindi, if you would under cross-examination require the document, you are free to ask Mr Thulo to hand it back to you.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)

Mr Thulo, do you still have the passport that you used in December 1987 to enter Lesotho?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't have it on my person.

MR VISSER: Do you have it at home?

MR THULO: I don't have it at home, Chairperson. At the time when I applied for the new one, they gave the new one and took the old one. So it's not within my control.

MR VISSER: Very well. Can we then continue with the second person. Were you once again given instructions to go and pick somebody else up in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Okay, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was this person?

MR THULO: The second person was Nomasonto Mashiya.

MR VISSER: On page 29D, you stated that

"I was given instructions to accompany Jantjie to Lesotho to go and pick ... Nomasonto Mashiya and her baby - to go and fetch them."

Did you know beforehand that she had a baby that she would bring with her?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I did not have a knowledge that there was a baby involved.

MR VISSER: You only found this out later when you arrived in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, when we arrived at Lesotho I noticed a baby.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell the Committee where did you drive, you and Jantjie.

MR THULO: We went to a place Qwading, that is Q-w-a-d-i-n-g.

MR VISSER: How far is that from where you picked up Betty Boom?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it is a distance, I'm not able to estimate.

MR VISSER: Was it close or far?

MR THULO: I would say they are neighbouring areas within Lesotho, those two villages.

MR VISSER: Very well. Did you have an address to which you went?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you have the address or did Jantjie have the address?

MR THULO: The address was known by Jantjie and I was just only a driver.

MR VISSER: Were you told where the address came from?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you then arrive at a certain place where you found Nomasonto?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you describe to us what this place looked like?

MR THULO: I remember that there was a high fence, a high security fence.

MR VISSER: With a gate?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, there was a gate.

MR VISSER: Were there guards at the gate or could you just drive in?

MR THULO: There was no guard, Chairperson, there was free access. The gate was open.

MR VISSER: Very well. What vehicle did you use?

MR THULO: It is the same kombi we used during the first incident.

MR VISSER: Who drove?

MR THULO: I was the driver, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When you arrived at this place - maybe I should just ask this first, inside this fence, what kind of buildings did you find? Was it houses, flats, what type of buildings?

MR THULO: Those were just like the huts you would find a rural area.

MR VISSER: Mr Interpreter, did you say "huts"? I'm not sure. "Hutte"?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

Were there a lot of people in the area? Did you see people in the area?

MR THULO: I don't recall seeing people, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where did you find Nomasonto, what was she doing?

MR THULO: We found her outside busy putting her clothes on the line.

MR VISSER: Did somebody speak to her?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, Mr Jantjie was having a discussion with her.

MR VISSER: Could you hear what he said to her?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What did he say to her?

MR THULO: He said to her that we were sent by Betty to come and collect her.

MR VISSER: Did Jantjie tell her where you were going to take her?

MR THULO: When Jantjie explained he stated that we were taking her to Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: Did she resist?

MR THULO: I don't recall her denying or not willing to go with us.

MR VISSER: Did she have any requests?

MR THULO: She requested us to take the baby's clothes.

MR VISSER: Very well. And what of the baby?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

MR VISSER: You say that you had to take the baby's clothes with, what about the baby?

MR THULO: She explained that she was taking the baby with.

MR VISSER: Did you then leave?

MR THULO: From there we returned to Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: To the farm?

MR THULO: ...(no interpretation)

MR VISSER: Did you go to the farm?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, we went to Ladybrand in the farm.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with any interviews with Nomasonto?

MR THULO: I did not take a role in any interview or I had nothing to do with those people in terms of the interviews, interrogations or any other thing.

MR VISSER: Did you make contact with Betty Boom on the farm?

MR THULO: When we arrived, Nomasonto was taken to a room where Betty was.

MR VISSER: Did you hear any discussions between Nomasonto and Betty Boom?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Were you informed by anyone about what happened afterwards concerning Nomasonto?

MR THULO: May you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR VISSER: Did you hear from anyone what happened with Nomasonto, on the farm?

MR THULO: In other words, Chairperson, when you say what happened to Nomasonto, do you mean in which way?

MR VISSER: Well I cannot lead you any further, let us leave it there.

Did you hear anything with regards to the baby?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I learnt something about the baby. Mr Jantjie explained only that Nomasonto has the baby, that that child should be taken to Vereeniging to her parents.

MR VISSER: Did they tell you who took the child?

MR THULO: The child was taken there but I was not party to that.

MR VISSER: Can you recall how long after you went to go and fetch Betty Boom, you went to go and fetch Nomasonto in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it may be a day or two days, but I cannot just say it with surety.

MR VISSER: And you also stated on page 29C, paragraph 12, that you were told to go with Robertshaw, Jantjie and Jagga, to accompany them to Lesotho - I'm sorry Chairperson, it's paragraph 15 at page 29D, I'm terribly sorry - that you were given an instruction to accompany Jantjie to Lesotho, to go and pick up Nomasonto. Can you recall who gave that instruction to you?

MR THULO: Chairperson, my senior, that is Robertshaw, gave me that order.

INTERPRETER: Can I have a minute to drink some water please. You may proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

What happened afterwards, did you again go to Lesotho to go and fetch somebody else?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, we returned to go and fetch Tax Sejanamane.

MR VISSER: Who gave you this instruction?

MR THULO: Mr Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: And did you then accompany somebody to Lesotho?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, we were four, that is myself, Jantjie, Tony Jagga and Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: What happened in Lesotho?

MR THULO: I was given an instruction to go to a particular area where I would find the person whom we wanted. We would cross the border and then we proceeded to a place where we found Tax there.

MR VISSER: Where was this place?

MR THULO: The place is Loatamani.

MR VISSER: Can you say how far that is from where you picked up Betty Boom?

MR THULO: I'm not an expert in calculations or estimations, Chairperson, but it is just above eighteen kilometres - eight kilometres, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When you saw Tax Sejanamane for the first time, what was your impression, what was his reaction when he saw you?

MR THULO: I'm able to recall, Chairperson, when I stopped the car just in front of where Tax Sejanamane was, he wanted to run away, he was fearful, then Jantjie shouted at him and said: "We are sent by Betty". Then Tax started to be relieved, then he entered the car and then we left with him.

MR VISSER: Very well. So did he enter the car voluntarily?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What vehicle was it?

MR THULO: In this incident it's a kombi but it's not a VW, it is a Toyota kombi.

MR VISSER: And did you go from that point onwards to the farm with Tax?

MR THULO: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And was he permitted to speak to Nomasonto and Betty Boom once you arrived there?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you ever also guard Nomasonto or Tax?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I did.

MR VISSER: Were they separate or were the two of them together with Betty Boom?

MR THULO: We started with Betty Boom, then Nomasonto followed. At the time when Tax was taken, Nomasonto and Betty were in the same room and when I arrived with Tax Sejanamane he was taken to that room where the two were.

MR VISSER: So it is there where you guarded all three of them?

MR THULO: I was not guarding them at the same time, all of them. When we arrived with Tax, there was a period where I stayed with him, approximately for an hour, when they had a discussion, all of them and then Jantjie left, then requested that Tax should be taken to a particular room.

MR VISSER: So Tax was detained separately from Nomasonto and Betty?

MR THULO: I want to clarify it again. When we arrived with Tax, he was not taken immediately to that particular room, I took him to a separate room whilst there was a discussion with Betty and Nomasonto. After that, then Tax was allowed to go to that particular room.

MR VISSER: To the other room?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just - I'm not following this at all. Can we just try and clarify this. You arrive at the farm with Tax, all four of you are in the car, plus Tax.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you say you then guard Tax in a different room while somebody else is talking to Betty Boom and Nomasonto, is that right?

MR THULO: At the time when we arrived at the farm, Tax was not allowed to meet with Betty and Nomasonto. At that time, on our arrival, he was taken to a separate room whilst Mr Robertshaw and Jantjie were having a discussion with Nomasonto and Betty Boom. After a certain duration, then they came to request that Tax should be taken to that room where Betty and Nomasonto were.

MR LAX: And then did a further discussion take place between all of them? Or don't you know?

MR THULO: I believed that there was a discussion after Tax was taken to that particular room.

MR LAX: And thereafter?

MR THULO: After that I did not have a contact with these three people, I did not know the finality of the whole incident.

MR LAX: So did you never see them again after that?

MR THULO: I did not know what happened thereafter, Chairperson, I did not see them again.

MR VISSER: Did anybody explain to you why all these persons were being brought to the farm and what had happened?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I did not receive any information in that regard.

MR VISSER: You stated in paragraph 19, from page 29D, that you are aware that Tax agreed to become an informer along with the other two persons. How did you become aware of that? Do you know this from within your own personal knowledge or is it something that somebody told you?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was given that information by Mr Jantjie.

MR VISSER: Do you know what subsequently happened to these three persons, do you know whether they were taken anywhere?

MR THULO: Chairperson, Mr Michael Jantjie informed me that those people were returned to Lesotho.

MR VISSER: But you have no personal knowledge of this? You didn't see it and you weren't present either, is that correct?

MR THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR VISSER: In conclusion, can we come to Mr Ngono. What was your involvement with Mr Ngono?

MR THULO: My role, Chairperson, in regard to Mr Mbulelo Ngono was that we were called to a meeting, the four of us, that is myself, Jantjie, Jagga and Mr Robertshaw, where there was a discussion that there is Mr KK at a place called Roma, then thereafter ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Just before you continue, what did this discussion involve, what did they say about KK?

MR THULO: In that discussion they explained that Mr KK is one of the MK members who were operating from Lesotho, then there was a desire that if we can find KK, he should be recruited to be our informer.

MR VISSER: And was any later instruction issued in this regard?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who issued the instruction?

MR THULO: Mr Robertshaw gave me those instructions.

MR VISSER: What did he say, what were you supposed to do?

MR THULO: I recall his words, he said we should leave and try to recruit KK to be our informer.

MR VISSER: In Lesotho, or at another place?

MR THULO: Inside Lesotho, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR THULO: If there are problems we would encounter, therefore we should abduct him and bring him to South Africa.

MR VISSER: So Robertshaw told you two things, is that correct? Firstly, you had to try to recruit him in Lesotho and if you did not succeed you should attempt to abduct him to South Africa. Is that your recollection?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who indeed then went to Roma?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I left with Mr Jantjie to Roma.

MR VISSER: What vehicle did you use?

MR THULO: That is a Toyota kombi.

MR VISSER: Very well. And once you arrived in Lesotho, what happened then?

MR THULO: When we arrived in Lesotho we went to a particular house which we were told Mr KK was residing at, then when we arrived we did not find him there and we learnt from somebody that he's at his girlfriend's place, then - before we arrived there at KK's girlfriend, I had a discussion with Mr Jantjie in the language we used to use, we would be taking a chance if we, because we are not sure how dangerous he is, therefore we took a decision that we should go and request an assistance from the Lesotho police. Then we went there to request for assistance.

MR VISSER: At which police station?

MR THULO: We went to Roma Police Station.

MR VISSER: And did you find any Lesotho police present there?

MR THULO: Chairperson, that is correct, we found police members there.

MR VISSER: And what took place at the police station?

MR THULO: We explained our mission, that we're looking for Mr KK. I wanted to explain earlier that we did not have a problem with the Lesotho police, in many instances if we had a problem, then we go to them, they would assist us. We went there to them and requested that assistance to help us in the abduction or arrest of Mr KK. They did.

MR VISSER: Therefore what you mean is that it was not out of the ordinary for them to assist you in arresting KK?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, we went there to ask for that kind of assistance.

MR VISSER: And was any of the Lesotho police force with you?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: A few minutes ago you stated that you went to request them to assist you with the arrest or the abduction of KK, what I want to put to you is, did you or Jantjie or both of you together tell the Lesotho police that it was your intention to abduct KK and bring him to South Africa?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't want to commit myself that we used those words, but in the discussion of Mr Jantjie and the Lesotho police, something in that regard could have been said. I don't remember directly that those words were used.

MR VISSER: Was it the idea that once KK had been arrested, the Lesotho police would then deliver him to you?

MR THULO: I believed so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: However, you stated that you were not certain whether or not they knew that it was your intention or your objective to abduct him and bring him to South Africa, is that what you're trying to say?

MR THULO: Chairperson, maybe I did not clarify this point. I don't believe that Mr Jantjie told the Lesotho police that we were coming to abduct Mr KK ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He says you were present when Mr Jantjie went to the Roma police.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You went there to request for an assistance to get KK.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Jantjie was having a discussion with the Lesotho police, where were you?

MR THULO: I was inside the car.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, he entered alone in the police station?

MR THULO: Yes that is correct, Chairperson, he entered the police station alone, but I had a knowledge of the content of the discussions he would have with the Lesotho police and I knew what kind of a request he would put to them.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you knew, how did you know what he would say to the Lesotho police?

MR THULO: We had a discussion that we should go and request for an assistance to arrest Mr KK.

CHAIRPERSON: When you had a discussion in the car before Mr Jantjie had a discussion with these Lesotho police, what was the content of the discussions of what he would say to the Lesotho police?

MR THULO: We discussed that he would go to the Lesotho police for an assistance to arrest KK as he is a suspect, that he should put it in such a way that KK is our suspect, so that they should assist us to arrest him.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the allegation for that suspicion so that the Roma police would be able to help you?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we had knowledge that KK was a member of the MK, who was military trained, therefore to us it would be dangerous if we would go on our own to arrest him, without the knowledge of what he would have, or what the hardware he would have in the house where he would be, then if we would request assistance from the police, it will be easy that we'd be able to arrest him.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you worked hand in hand, you had a good relationship with the Lesotho police, are you referring to the entire Lesotho police or are you referring to particular areas, for example, Maseru, Ditabaneng and other areas? Or are you referring

to Lesotho in general, that the Lesotho police were working with you?

MR THULO: I would not say, Chairperson, that the entire Lesotho police were co-operating with us, but I would say areas like Maseru, Leribe and Bote-Bote, those were areas where we had a good relationship with the Lesotho police in those particular areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us now refer to the Roma police. Were you known as members of the South African Police?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson, we were not known but we were fortunate that we found somebody who worked in the Headquarters and he was the person who was responsible, or he was a senior in that police station.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, when you stated that you wanted Mr Ngono, what did you say to them?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I've already stated that when we arrived at Roma, I stayed in the car and Mike went to the police station, but I would not be able to say exactly what words he used inside the police station, but we had a discussion that he should tell them that he's a suspect within the South African police. But I did not know the words he used at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is the crux of my question, that the discussion you had inside the car, because Jantjie went there alone, what is the allegation of that suspicion inside the Republic?

MR THULO: There's nothing which we discussed about as the crux of our mission that he is a suspect, but I believed that he would say anything which would make the Lesotho police to believe that KK is a suspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here Mr Thulo, you're stating under general circumstances that you recent information which you know what Mr Jantjie said inside the police station, because you had a discussion in the car. What I want to know from you is, or the explanation which I want from you is that in general, what did you agree that Mr Jantjie would say to the police?

MR THULO: I still repeat Chairperson, that we - he said when he got to the Lesotho police it's that we had an information that there is a suspect which we are looking for, he's at a particular house and that we need assistance to arrest that person. Therefore, we would not explain to the Lesotho police that he is an MK member. But it is true that members of the ANC were all over Lesotho, but within the Lesotho police there were those who did not want the MK members to be there and those who wanted MK members to be in Lesotho. So we would not go and say to them directly that he is a member of the MK, how would he react to that information? Then we just agreed that he should go and say to them KK is a suspect.

CHAIRPERSON: I wanted you just to say what happened with the Roma police. When Jantjie entered the Roma police, what was your agreement, what was the content of the agreement that he tells the Roma police, so that they would help you to arrest Mr Ngono?

MR THULO: I said to Jantjie that he should go to the Roma police, that Mr Ngono is a suspect and then we need their assistance to go with us, so that we will be able to arrest him. That is the discussion we had inside the car with Mr Jantjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, sorry to make you wait one second longer.

You see what I don't understand is this, the reason why you went to the Lesotho police, you've told us, is that you were worried, this man was a highly trained MK operative, you didn't know what hardware he'd have, you didn't know what possible conflict might arise, and you don't go and tell these people: "Hey, we're dealing here with a hardened military man", you just tell them: "We're looking for a suspect, we want you to help us". Surely the whole object is to go to them and say to them: "Hey man, bring your swot team, we've got a heavy guy here, we need to be careful, we don't know what we're going to be up against"? Do you understand my problem?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I know that those people who were inside a particular country, they would respect the laws of that country, therefore that person would respect the police of that particular country more than they would respect us. Therefore they would have it easy to easy to arrest, other than if we did or we were in the forefront of the arrest.

MR LAX: But KK wouldn't know that you weren't Lesotho policemen, for example, if you pretended to be a Lesotho policeman, he wouldn't know you weren't that. Isn't that so?

MR THULO: I want to clarify that, Chairperson, that at all times the police would identify themselves with their identity cards and then they would identify themselves and give you the reasons for that arrest. We will not be able to produce our police IDs, the South African police IDs. That thing could not have happened, but the Lesotho police would be able to produce their police IDs during that arrest.

MR LAX: But you see you told us that the main reason you were worried was this was a very well trained man, you didn't know what hardware he had, you didn't know what risks you were facing. If the Lesotho police were with you, why should he be any less inclined to attack all four of you?

MR THULO: Yes, that risk was still there, even if we did not enter with them. We stayed behind, then they entered first and then after we realised that the situation is conducive, then we went in.

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, did the police who accompanied you, have uniforms on or were they dressed in plain clothes?

MR THULO: Chairperson, they were in plain clothes.

MR VISSER: And did you and Jantjie go with the two Lesotho policemen to a certain place?

MR THULO: Chairperson, from the police station we went to KK's girlfriend's place.

MR VISSER: It is common cause that this was in an apartment near the University of Lesotho, is that correct?

MR THULO: Let me explain it. You would find houses which we'd call them as, you know, joined houses, but they would have different doors and in that kind of a house you would not say it's a flat, but I don't know how to call it, but those are the joined houses but with different doors.

MR VISSER: I think they're called annexes, if I'm not mistaken, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Annexes?

MR VISSER: Annexes, I think, I'm not sure what the witness is referring to.

MR LAX: Sorry. One of the people who was in that place calls it a flat, she said it was called a flat. Jantjie called it that, but also - I'm just reading from the girlfriend's statement, she says the place was called: Number 2, Motala Flats. If you look at page 45, that's what she calls it. It's in the second paragraph of that, roughly the third line of that paragraph.

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson, for that explanation, but I would in the usual language used by the Lesotho people, those houses are called "liners" or "lines". So that's the language which was used by the Lesotho people there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know what flats are. Personally, you know what flats are?

MR VISSER: Sorry, was the question asked, I'm not sure?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VISSER: I'm terribly sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked him, I said he knows what flats are?

MR THULO: Yes, Chairperson, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And we are here South Africans, we speak in the South African language, when we mean flats, do you understand it in that context? In other words, I'm not saying tell us what the Lesotho people say or call houses. Do you follow what I'm saying to you?

MR THULO: Chairperson, in the usual language, either in Lesotho and in South Africa, those we used to call "Maline", and I don't what to say in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a house on top of another?

MR THULO: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: In those lines, were those houses having one house on top of another?

MR THULO: They were adjoining houses, you know, houses are next, one to the other, so just flat, there were no other houses on top.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take here in Bloemfontein, we have high buildings, offices, where you've got to use a lift in this instance, in other words it means there is a floor on top of another floor, were those houses something similar to that?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, I was wasting time, not much turns on this.

Did you then enter this house?

MR THULO: That is correct, Sir, the police from Lesotho got into the building and we followed after them.

MR VISSER: After the lunch adjournment I'd asked you what happened then ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a misunderstanding here, because what came through the interpretation was: "It's a building".

MR VISSER: Well I didn't know what to refer to it as and I referred to it in Afrikaans as "'n woning", which was interpreted as a house and which was further interpreted as a building, Chairperson. But I think for the record, if we simply say we refer to it as whatever, without specifying exactly what particular kind of building it was, because really, nothing turns on whether it was a flat or whether it was a house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MR VISSER: ... is correct, yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, it's 1 o'clock, I thought you might wish to take the luncheon adjournment. Or are you like my ex-colleague, Mr Nico Coetzee, who works through lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no. We'll take the lunch adjournment until two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Visser.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)

Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, just before our lunch adjournment we reached the point where yourself and Jantjie and the two Lesotho policemen of the Roma Police Station arrived at this, let us call it a building, did you knock or what happened?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I mentioned already that the police from Lesotho were in front of us, they were in the front and we followed.

MR VISSER: Very well. Was the door open?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did the policemen of Lesotho enter?

MR THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: And did you follow them into the room?

MR THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: What did you notice in this room, how many people were present?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we found two people in the house.

MR VISSER: There is a lady by the name of Lindiwe Makebe, no sorry, Mabeke, who states that her sister was also present at that stage in that building. What do you say about that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I recall getting two people in the house.

MR VISSER: Is it possible that there could have been a third person whom you forgot?

MR THULO: Yes, there is that possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you, Mr Visser.

How many rooms did this house have?

MR THULO: According to my recollection, Chairperson, we were in a room, so it was a one-room building.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser, you may proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

What happened then in that room?

MR THULO: My recollection tells me that the one policeman from Lesotho asked the people their names and if I recall, KK was asked whether he was attending school, KK said yes and the police requested a student card but KK could not produce the student card.

MR VISSER: The other person in the room, the lady, was she also asked for a student card?

MR THULO: That is correct, the lady was also requested for the student card.

MR VISSER: Did she give them one?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened then, what did the policemen do?

MR THULO: After the police searched the house, there was a bed on which KK was seated, when they lifted the mattress they discovered a small bag underneath the mattress, the bag contained handgrenades. KK was then arrested.

MR VISSER: Did you say that the bag contained handgrenades (in the plural)?

MR THULO: According to my recollection there were two handgrenades.

MR VISSER: Very well. And you also say that KK was then arrested. Was this now, did the Lesotho policemen arrest him?

MR THULO: That is correct, the policemen from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: I want to ask you now if you can recall if KK's friend was arrested with him.

MR THULO: I recall that she was arrested with him.

MR VISSER: Very well. Can you recall if you, this is now the four of you, the four policemen, if you went with KK to his house?

MR THULO: I do not recall that one, Sir.

MR VISSER: Very well. Where did you go then with KK?

MR THULO: Chairperson, we went back to Roma Police Station.

MR VISSER: And what happened there?

MR THULO: I do not recall, I do not know well what happened, Mr Jantjie and the other policemen communicated and I don't know what the result of the discussion was, because KK was handed over to us.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

MR THULO: We got into the car, I was the driver and Jantjie was with me and he was taking care of KK, so that he doesn't do anything.

MR VISSER: Was KK's arms or legs tied or cuffed in any way?

MR THULO: Chairperson, when KK got arrested his hands were tied, but not with handcuffs, his belt was used to tie his hands, but the legs were not tied at all.

MR VISSER: And who tied his hands?

MR THULO: I do not recall well, Chairperson, unfortunately.

MR VISSER: Very well. Did you then go through the border with KK, to the farm?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you have any further dealings with KK after this?

MR THULO: Chairperson, on our arrival it was not only KK at the farm and I did not do anything, he was in Mr Jantjie's hands all the time.

MR VISSER: So in other words, the short answer would be that no, you had nothing further to do with him?

MR THULO: Nothing at all, Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you know what happened to KK after this?

MR THULO: I do not know anything, Sir, of what happened to him thereafter.

MR VISSER: On page 29E of the bundle you stated that you received certain legal advice with regard to Nomasonto, Tax and KK, is that correct?

MR THULO: May you repeat your question please, Sir.

MR VISSER: Were you advised that you possibly committed certain offences with regards to abduction in regard to Nomasonto, Tax and KK?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you therefore apply for amnesty for that, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Why did you do these things, Mr Thulo?

MR THULO: Chairperson, let me explain briefly. I committed these acts due to the circumstances that reigned during that time and I was employed by the South African Police. I was fulfilling the instructions. When I was given instructions I implemented them, that's why I committed these acts.

MR VISSER: Did you do these things believing that you were supporting the government of that time?

MR THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: And to protect the property and lives of people in South Africa?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Any cross-examination, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, my learned friend, Mr Koopedi will cross-examine Mr Thulo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, you've said in your evidence that you joined this unit about seven months before September '87, is that correct? '87.

CHAIRPERSON: You said September, he said seven months before December '87.

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps before then, you've said that in '85 you joined the Police, before '85, what were you doing?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I think this was not cleared, I said I arrived in this unit in 1985. I had been in the Force already, but in the Security Branch I arrived in 1985.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join the Police?

MR THULO: I joined in 1981, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Before joining the Police, had you worked anywhere else?

MR THULO: Before joining the Police, Chairperson, I was a teacher.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you teach? Did you teach in the Ladybrand area?

MR THULO: I was teaching at Mqueleng in Ficksburg, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now after joining this unit, I believe we are now in 1987, what were your duties within this unit, what did you do with members of this unit?

MR THULO: Honourable Chairperson, the main function within this branch was to gather information. I would say to gather information, that is against the government and this information must be coming from the so-called liberation movements.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you have gathered this information what did you do with it?

MR THULO: After gathering information Sir, we'd go back to the office and report back and the office would give us an instruction to report this further to the Head Office.

MR KOOPEDI: Who would you report to?

MR THULO: We were working with Mr Robertshaw. When he was not present in our midst we would report to him after information and he would take it to his senior.

MR KOOPEDI: I need to understand this properly, if you'd bear with me, would you get information from an informer, take that information and report it to your superior or somebody senior to him, or would there be an instance where your unit talks about this matter, discusses the type of information you have?

MR THULO: Chairperson, this was happening all the time, each piece of information that we gathered, we would discuss it amongst ourselves, trying to get the truth about that and after that we would report it.

MR KOOPEDI: So would I be correct to then say that you or any member of your unit would sort of know what the other one was doing, would sort of know what information the other one has gathered, is that correct?

MR THULO: It was not an everyday occurrence, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, what do you mean it was not an every day occurrence? What are you talking about?

MR THULO: I'll explain it this way. It was not always that I would find myself involved in a discussion with some members of my unit. May I carry on, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: You may.

MR THULO: Some of the things on my arrival would have been discussed already and I would be informed.

MR LAX: Well you see, you just told us a few minutes ago that

"Each piece of information we get we'd discuss, trying to get to the truth of it before making a report."

Those were your very words you used. Just listen to my question now. If you discussed each piece of information, how can you say it was seldom that you had discussions?

MR THULO: Chairperson, let me take you back a little bit. You must have heard in this same Committee that there were issues within the South Africa Security Branch that were meant, they were on a need-to-know basis. At some instances you would not even dare to ask why certain things were happening.

MR LAX: Well you see my problem with that answer is that you've told us in your own words that you would discuss each piece of information, to verify the truthfulness of it before you reported it. So it's not about need-to-know, it's about taking your sources, your intelligence that you get and making, verifying it amongst yourselves before you give a report. Those were the words you used, no-one put those words in your mouth. You understand? Anyway, carry on Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Let's talk about Betty Boom. When did you know that your colleagues have started befriending him?

CHAIRPERSON: It's a lady.

MR KOOPEDI: Her. Sorry. I'm indebted, Chairperson.

MR THULO: It had not been long before this incident, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: What is that, could it be two weeks, two months?

MR THULO: I can't estimate really.

MR KOOPEDI: And what exactly did you know about Betty Boom, what was - when the matter was discussed with you, what was said about Betty Boom?

MR THULO: Allow me to ask a question. When I was informed, or when the issue was discussed, which one are you talking about, Sir?

MR KOOPEDI: At any stage, whenever you spoke about Betty Boom, whether it's when you were informed or whether it's within discussions. What I'd like to know is, what was the contents of that discussion? What were you talking about, what exactly were you saying about Betty Boom?

MR THULO: If I recall very well, Mr Michael Jantjie told me that they found an informer and this is an MK member and this person is in a very good position to work for the MK.

MR KOOPEDI: And after that information were you ever privy to any other information, other than her having agreed to work for the police? Did anything else come, did you get information that Betty Boom has supplied your colleagues with information?

MR THULO: I do not recall getting such information, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: If I understand you properly you do not recall, it might have happened.

Now after having been told that she has agreed to become an informer, were you told of the plan to abduct her? That is before being given orders to go and fetch her, were you ever told of a plan to abduct her?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when did you know that Betty has to be fetched? You don't know that she was to be abducted.

MR THULO: Chairperson, on the day of the incident I was informed that we are leaving with these people to go and fetch Betty.

MR KOOPEDI: And I take it you were a full-time member of this unit, is that correct?

MR THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Well I find this strange, and perhaps your comment can help me understand this issue better, your co-applicant testified that they spoke to Betty, made her agree to work for them, after some time, from other sources they found out that some people may be suspecting Betty, Betty also said she might be suspected and this when the plan to abduct her was hatched. Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, Mr Koopedi, could you please just tell him which of the two. We've heard two of colleagues, which one of the two said that?

MR KOOPEDI: Your colleague, in this instance I'm referring to Mr Jantjie. Now what I find strange and where I need your comment is, where were you all this time? Betty is recruited, you are told. Information comes from sources that Betty may be suspected by the ANC. You don't know that. Betty tells your colleagues that she might be suspected by the ANC that she's now working for the Police. You are not told. There's a plan to abduct. You are not told. This plan is discussed with Betty, who agrees with it. You still are not told, you're only told on the day of going to fetch her. Can you give me a comment on that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, there were other sensitive issues that were taking place that I was not supposed to know. Maybe it's one of the reasons why I was not given everything about Betty.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. You ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just pose one question?

What were those sensitive things being discussed?

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson. I cannot expose them, I believe my superiors are in that position.

MR SIBANYONI: Why was it - it would appear you were kept out of some of the matters which were discussed, is there any reason for that?

MR THULO: I don't know, but I believe the need-to-know basis plan was implemented with a reason, I was not meant to know some of the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but you see Mr Thulo, you are here before us, one of the requirements for you to get amnesty is to make a full disclosure. A question has been posed to you is that a lot of things happened, and let's take these particular people who are subject of this hearings. Mr Koopedi asked you that you were merely informed that discussions, whatever, you were not privy to that, but you only came in the picture when you had to go and fetch these people from Lesotho. Your response thereto is that there were other sensitive things you were doing and the question is what were those sensitive things? Because let me be honest with you, that you will correct me if I'm mistaken, listening to you and the other two we have heard so far, is that you were a unit of four. Would I be wrong?

MR THULO: You are not wrong, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you see, this is not a large unit, four people working together, but now most of the things that happened within this unit, you are for some strange reason excluded or you were not privy to some of the things which they discussed.

MR THULO: Honourable Chairperson, I want to repeat this, I would not ask anything because of the principle of need-to-know basis. One other thing Chairperson, to be in my unit, that did not mean I would be in contact with them, physical contact with them every day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said earlier whatever information you got in this information gathering, you would discuss it to see the veracity of such information before you would report to those senior to you. Now what, would you be included in the discussion if the need-to-know basis operates within people comprising a unit which is so small, four?

MR THULO: Chairperson, maybe you do not understand what I'm trying to tell you. I am saying, in all the things that happened I would not be present in all of them. When I was not present I did not have any powers to come and say: "Guys, I was not here yesterday, what did you do?" I respected the principle of need-to-know. If they did not volunteer to tell me, I would not dare to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not know about Ms Betty Boom, how she was recruited, would you know about that? Or did you know only when they said you must fetch her from Lesotho? Which of the two did you know?

MR THULO: Chairperson, let me take it from what I've said. Mr Jantjie told me that they had an informer called Betty Boom. How she was recruited, I do not know. I was told on that day: "Go with these people and go and fetch that person."

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I'm asking you this, it's part of your application, papers before us, you say we must incorporate what Jantjie said into your application.

MR THULO: That's what I said, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And help me if I'm mistaken, that what I understood is that what Jantjie said, you should know about it. That's my understanding.

MR THULO: I do not know what Jantjie said before you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what his application contains?

MR THULO: I have a copy in front of me, Sir, of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: I say when you compiled your application did you know what Jantjie had in his application?

MR THULO: I had glanced through it, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: My reading of Jantjie's application, it does not mention that some of the things you were told or you were not told, he doesn't say so.

MR THULO: I don't know that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And when I read yours - bear with me for a minute - if you have regard to page 24, Clause 9(a)(iv), where it says

"Nature and Particulars"

"These incidents are thoroughly defined in Mr Jantjie's amnesty application and I request the Amnesty Committee to incorporate this with my application."

What are you saying when you say that?

MR THULO: I believe what is stated here is my intentions.

CHAIRPERSON: That whatever - this is my understanding, that whatever Jantjie has written, we must take it that it refers to you as well?

MR THULO: Allow me to ask a question. Whatever Jantjie has put down here, is it the same as what he gave evidence to, oral evidence to?

CHAIRPERSON: He went further in his oral evidence, and I can't recall and I say the legal representatives should help me in this instance, and my Committee Members, he never said that other things you had to know on a need-to-know basis only. There were things in other words, which were kept away from you. You operated as a unit of four. For instance with Betty Boom, she was identified, it was identified that she had financial problems and this was the best way of getting to Betty Boom, to take advantage of her dire financial straits. Did you know such information about Betty Boom?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I said there are some of the things I knew and some I did not know and what you've just mentioned now was unknown to me. I was told on that day: "Go and assist these people to bring that person", that's all. I never had anything to do with Betty Boom.

Allow me to ask a question, Chairperson. The facts that Mr Jantjie forgot to mention, or that I've mentioned and he had forgotten to mention, is it a mistake really?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, listen to this in its context. Hence I asked you about page 24, okay? That you say what he is saying, you say the facts which happened to this, the facts about this incident are fully described in Mr Jantjie's application and that we should incorporate such facts into your application. That's what it means. I don't want to confuse you with the legal requirements of that, but that what in broad outline it means. Now in regard to Betty Boom, in Mr Jantjie's application which is page 15D, he says: - it is 14.

"Jagga and I succeeded in establishing physical contact with Betty Boom. It took place as follows. Firstly, for a period of approximately a month we surveilled her house and determined that she did not receive any visitors there. She met her cell members in Maseru, in town."

So in respect of that first portion, if I understand you correctly you are saying to us that the only time you knew about Betty Boom, it's when you went to fetch her, the rest you did not know.

MR THULO: Chairperson, may I explain again. I was told by Mr Jantjie that they had recruited Betty Boom to be an informer and from there I was not informed of anything regarding Betty Boom, but I was told on that day, when I was told: "Drive with us, we're going to fetch Betty Boom". That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: This you were not told either, 16 on the same page

"Upon several occasions we held discussions with her. We informed her that we had available funds which we would make available to her, and so doing we won her trust. During these discussions we realised that she was not of great value regarding her position within the ANC. She complained particularly regarding the lack of financial and other support which she and her cell received. She also stated that she was tired of the struggle, that she felt isolated in Lesotho, and that she wanted to go home. It was clear that she had been starving, due to a lack of money. These admissions confirmed the reports that we had received earlier from our informers."

That you don't know about either?

MR THULO: Chairperson, this was never told to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Nor did you have an opportunity when you discussed certain information before it was given to the superiors, for you to be privy to this what I've read to you?

MR THULO: I never had an opportunity to discuss this matter. I do not know anything about this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: And as a unit of four, when you fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho and she was taken to the farm in Ladybrand, you had no further interest? Are you suggesting that to us?

MR THULO: May you repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I say after you had fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho, took her to the farm in Ladybrand and when she was put in another room and you went to the other room, you had not interest about Betty Boom?

MR THULO: That is so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Koopedi, to have taken so long, I'm sorry I might have taken the thunder out of your questions. I'm sorry about that.

MR LAX: Sorry, there's just one thing arising. Please forgive me.

I didn't understand what you were saying at some point in your testimony to the Chairperson, but you used a peculiar phrase and I just wanted to be clear about what you meant by it. In fact, it was in reply to a question from Mr Koopedi. You said:

"Jantjie told me they found an informer, Betty Boom. This person is in a good position to work for MK"

that's what was translated, and what did you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I must correct that, I listened to the Sotho, he said

"a person in high position within the MK, who would be good for the South African Government"

That's how I understood it. I think the translation might have missed it there.

MR LAX: Thank you, because it just concerned me, it doesn't make sense at all. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Thulo, were you ever present in any discussions concerning the fact that Betty Boom is not a happy person, she needs money? Were you ever present?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: How many days did you work with this unit? How many times did you see them per day, for instance?

MR THULO: Before this incident?

MR KOOPEDI: Well a month before Betty Boom was abducted.

MR THULO: I believe we met every day.

MR KOOPEDI: And perhaps give me your comment to this. I find it strange that you worked with this unit full-time, you would meet with them every day, but certain discussions go on, you're not privy to them. Certain information comes from their informers, for instance, that Betty Boom is hungry, Betty Boom doesn't have money, but you don't know about this, is it not strange?

MR THULO: I mentioned earlier on that in those months I was busy organising transport for my child, now I did not have enough time to be with these gentlemen. I believe this is one of the reasons why I could not be too involved.

MR KOOPEDI: But you just said you saw these people every day.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I asked before this incident - I wanted to explain that when these incidents happened I was not in daily contact with them, but before this incident we met every day. I had taken care of the baptismal of my child at the church, now we met on a daily basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you do this, this has just hit my mind, may I with the greatest respect, Mr Koopedi?

Mr Thulo, are you certain that you joined this group in 1987, seven months before this incident? Are you absolutely certain about that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I told you what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I'm asking you a question, are you absolutely certain? Because I want to refer you to page 42 of these papers before us, a statement of one Atie Sokadi. He says in paragraph 6, in June he was arrested and brought here, that is in Johannesburg. He was brought back or taken to Ladybrand, where he was interrogated and he also mentions you, Thulo. If you look at paragraph 6, the third sentence from the end of the paragraph he mentions you. I don't know if Mr Visser could be kind enough to just show you what I'm talking about. And I think it's more clearer if you go to page 43, at the top there, he says

"During the same year, 1986, myself, Mike, Jantjie, Koki, Thulo, Jackie Tsolo, Celo, Colin Robertshaw, Capt Fouche and Lieut du Plessis, left for Lesotho. We kidnapped the ANC Chief Representative, Mr Mageta. We handed him over to Tsolo and Celo, who later crossed with him. Myself, Koki, Thulo and Mike Jantjie went to Ditabaneng to collect a certain Lesotho soldier working for the South Africans."

So what I'm just asking you here is that, are you certain that you joined in 1987, this unit, or you worked with this unit during 1986? Or you've forgotten the years?

MR THULO: Chairperson, when I began I said I started in this unit in 1985. I was not working for that unit at that time. I can't even point out this person called Hatiso. I do not know him. I don't want to speculate. I can't even identify him. I don't want to come and lie here.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what Mr Thulo, let's be on the same wavelength, part of my duties is to clear up certain things with you, I can't just leave them and surmise about certain things. Things which are not clear to me, I've got to ask you, and not only me, my Committee Members as well, because when we leave here and give a decision we must be absolutely sure that we are satisfied with your evidence. Do you follow that? So when you answer me, please forget to say "I said earlier". Actually, when a person says that to me he gives me the impression that I'm not listening, okay? So bear with me, I would keep on butting in, asking you questions, don't feel, because it is my duty to make that I get everything which is not clear for me personally. Which is not clear, I will ask you questions, okay? And it would be wrong for me to have something, a statement of this nature and not clear it up with you. Okay?

MR THULO: That is okay, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Koopedi.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, just perhaps in the interest of going a bit quicker perhaps, could it just perhaps be cleared with this witness when he talks about 1985 and 1987, when he talks about the unit, what he's actually referring to. Is he referring to this information unit or is he referring to the Security Branch at Ladybrand. There may be, and I put it no higher than that, there may be a confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: There is certainly confusion.

Mr Thulo, you said you joined the Police in 1981, you recall that?

MR THULO: I recall, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1985 you joined the Security Branch.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Which Security Branch and where did you join that Security Branch?

MR THULO: The Ladybrand Security Branch, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you speak of units, because now - let's take this one for instance, which is subject of this hearing, the unit where Messrs Jantjie, Jagga and Mr Robertshaw and yourself, you say you joined that seven months prior to the incident which we are discussing here. Do you recall saying so?

MR THULO: I said so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now to a question you said

"I said I joined this unit in 1985"

which unit are you referring to now?

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson. I said I joined the branch. When I said, I wanted to make a clear - I was joining the Security Branch in 1985, I was working at the border under the uniform branch and I left the border, came to the Security Branch in 1985. When I said I joined in 1985, the unit in 1985, I wanted to say I joined the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: And which was not - when you performing functions or duties in this branch, the Security Branch, in 1985, these people, your co-applicants were also in the Security Branch but not doing the same duties, they were doing separate duties? Because you know what, what we have heard is that their unit was tasked with collecting information from Lesotho.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson. Before I was working in the Security Branch, but my duty was not to get information from the countries around South Africa, I was working in the country, not outside the borders of South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the translation is going to confuse whoever is listening to it. I would say the witness should repeat that and please listen to what the witness is saying.

May you, Mr Thulo, start again. We are sorry about this, it's just that the translation or interpretation was garbled and I would ask you to be slow about this, because it is important that we get the essence of what you are saying.

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson. I want to clear this. Within the Security Branch there were members who were gathering information inside the country, not outside the borders of South Africa. In other words, other people would not be in a position to leave town to go into Lesotho to gather information, they were not given that authority. That is why there was this unit which was tasked with gathering information in Lesotho, in other words, inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: And hence, in 1987, seven prior to the abduction of the four people who are subject of this hearing, you joined them?

MR THULO: That's how it happened, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry about that, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I must thank you Mr Visser, for ...

MR VISSER: ...(indistinct - no microphone), Chairperson, I should have told you. It appears from page 23 in any event, at the foot of the page.

MR LAX: It doesn't really, the clarification.

MR VISSER: You're quite right, half of it appears there.

MR LAX: I was looking to see if it was there myself. Unlike many other applicants, he didn't put the internal variation.

Just as a matter of interest Mr Thulo, when you joined the Security Branch at Ladybrand in February 1985, what were you allocated, what duties were you allocated?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was doing office work, if I recall.

MR LAX: Yes, that doesn't tell me anything. What were your duties? What desk were you assigned to, what section were you supposed to work on? Were you an administration clerk?

MR THULO: I did filing.

MR LAX: So you were a filing clerk?

MR THULO: I would say so, if you want to take it that way, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, we want to get it from you, he's merely making an example, he's not - don't take anything he's saying. If you don't agree with him, please say so. Tell us what your duties were.

MR THULO: Thank you, Chairperson. I wanted to explain to this Committee that the work that I was doing was filing.

MR LAX: Yes, filing what?

MR THULO: Files that were utilised in our office.

MR LAX: What sort of files, were they administrative files, were they information files?

MR THULO: We did the filing for the office, Chairperson, there was no distinction, administrative filing, files regarding the information. The file that was needed at that time we had our hands on.

CHAIRPERSON: Within the intelligence community? Now this is Special Branch, it's not ordinary South African Police, as it then was.

MR THULO: These were files of the information received by the Security Branch.

MR LAX: Precisely, they were files on people, files on organisations.

MR THULO: I had explained that.

MR LAX: Now, when did you stop doing the filing and start doing other information gathering duties?

MR THULO: I would not be precise, but I took quite some time in the filing system until I was moved to the group that gathered information in the country. I recall working in Zastron and Wepener to get information.

MR LAX: Well what organisations were you allocated to look at? What desk were you working on?

MR THULO: I gathered information, any information coming, Chairperson, whether it was BCM's information, trade unions, PAC, ANC, any information that came my way I had to gather and take it to the office.

MR LAX: So you were a field officer?

MR THULO: I was a field worker.

MR LAX: Correct. Field workers are usually allocated to a specific desk, so that they can focus their information. They either work on black power, which includes ANC, BCM, etcetera, or they work separately on trade unions or they work on white organisations, churches. Isn't that so?

MR THULO: What I was trying to explain - yes I understand your question, but I'm saying to the Committee, every information that came my direction I had to gather it and take it to the office, the office would then allocate it to different desks according to the reports that we have written.

MR LAX: Yes but as a field worker you were allocated to a specific desk, obviously if you got other information you'd notify them about that. Isn't that so?

MR THULO: I did not have a specific desk allocated to me.

MR LAX: And then - did you have a specific geographical area attributed to you?

MR THULO: I had explained, Chairperson, that I worked in Wepener and Zastron to gather information.

MR LAX: Yes. And how did it come about then that you were then suddenly moved to Lesotho?

MR THULO: I do not know what motivated that to happen, but I believe there was a shortage of people in that desk.

MR LAX: Now when you moved to become a field worker in Lesotho, what briefing process were you put through?

MR THULO: There was no briefing process, Sir.

MR LAX: No briefing process?

MR THULO: No, Sir. I do not recall receiving any briefing process.

MR LAX: Was that because you already knew everything there was to know about Lesotho?

MR THULO: I believe that is so.

MR LAX: Well where did you acquire all this additional information about Lesotho from?

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, there are also other permutations, this is not the only possibility. It could have been considered that he knew nothing about information gathering per se. For example. Chairperson, with great respect, may I just say this. We tend during this hearing, and it's happened before and it's happening again and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, to stray so far from what is relevant, with great respect, that what is happening is that the witnesses are getting more and more confused as to what he's supposed to come and tell the Committee. Here is a witness who is a good example, who tells you that he had no personal knowledge about these people and their recruitment, and look at the questions he's got to feel, Chairperson, and one cannot help but ask, what has that got to do with his application? With great respect. I don't want to say anything more than just to draw your attention to the fact, Chairperson, that perhaps we could go forwards perhaps a little bit more expeditiously on relevant issues, rather than taking the time on irrelevant issues. But I take it no further.

CHAIRPERSON: I would say to everybody, you are not restricted, but let it be within parameters to do that, because as we hear the witness, sometimes he mentions things that he has told us, when he hasn't and that's a clear sign of confusion. And I would request that let's not have long and compounded questions, let's have a single fact for the witness to be able to answer. I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but let's try and stick to this incident, these incidents, because we would take a longer time and we have those constraints time-wise, that we have to finish the process.

Mr Thulo, you say on page 23 that you left the services on medical grounds, when did you join the Special Branch again? You say January 1996 you left because of ill health.

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you come back to the Special Branch or the South African Police? Or what do you mean

"Tree uit diens op mediese gronde"

What do you mean by that?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I don't understand the gist of your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, look at page 23, just right at the bottom, the last thing on the bottom of the page

"January 1996"

you are giving us a résumé about yourself. I'll state it as is.

"Left the service because of medical reasons"

MR THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that? It would appear you understand it now, what do you mean by that?

MR THULO: Diabetes, Sir, caused me to leave my position.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say position, what are you referring to?

MR THULO: It could not be controlled, so it was difficult for me to carry on with my duties. This was a recommendation from the doctors who said I must stop working.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, what I understood is that you are out of the Police Force now.

MR THULO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Thulo.

MR LAX: Mr Thulo, I was asking you about your duties when you started working in Lesotho, and what exactly did you do? Just give us a rough idea what your duties were.

MR THULO: Chairperson, my work was to gather information and I would not do that without using informers in Lesotho.

MR LAX: How many informers did you handle yourself?

MR THULO: I would not recall their number exactly.

MR LAX: Was it more than 20, was it less than 20?

MR THULO: There were less than ...(intervention)

MR LAX: These are informers in Lesotho.

MR THULO: There were not more than 20, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And how many of your informers were co-handled by either Jantjie or Jagga?

MR THULO: I have four that I recall.

MR LAX: So you had approximately 16 of your own informers that weren't handled by anyone else?

MR THULO: Chairperson, I did not say I had 20 informers.

MR LAX: I'm saying at best, you said not more than 20.

MR THULO: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get if from you. More-or-less how many? Don't say more than 20. More-or-less.

MR THULO: This is quite a difficult question. Well let me estimate. There could have been 13.

MR LAX: And how many times in your average week did you go into Lesotho, to go and make contact with your informers, or try and recruit new informers?

MR THULO: Three or four days in a week, Sir, it was not every day.

MR LAX: And what was your cover in Lesotho?

MR THULO: Cover against what, Sir?

MR LAX: What was your legend ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You would not just get to the people and say you are a policeman.

MR THULO: Chairperson, I was using the name Koki.

MR LAX: And what the legend that you used?

MR THULO: I used to - at times I would say I was working for insurances.

MR LAX: And did you hang out in bars with Jagga and Jantjie as well?

MR THULO: At times, yes.

MR LAX: Well you see, they were pretending to be criminals.

CHAIRPERSON: No, in fairness to the people they recruited later, like Betty Boom for instance, they pretended to be criminals who sought refuge in Lesotho.

MR LAX: You didn't know what their cover was?

MR THULO: Mike was known as Mike, Tony was still known as Tony.

MR LAX: You don't seem to understand this term "cover". What was their legend?

MR THULO: I do not recall.

MR LAX: And did none of your informers ever tell you anything about Betty Boom?

MR THULO: No, Sir, not according to my recollection.

MR LAX: And did any of your informers ever tell you anything about Nomasonto?

MR THULO: Not to my knowledge.

MR LAX: And Tax?

MR THULO: The same.

MR LAX: And KK?

MR THULO: I don't know who came with the information about KK.

MR LAX: Well you told us you first heard about him at a meeting.

MR KOOPEDI: That is correct, but who came up with the information until it got to the gentlemen who were working with me.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Koopedi, I've taken a lot of your time, I must apologise.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Perhaps flowing from the questions that come from the Panel, did I hear you correct to say that every information that you gathered in Lesotho you then reported it to your office?

MR THULO: That's how it used to work.

MR KOOPEDI: Now please clarify me here. Would you just put in a report, that is particularly about your information, or would you discuss it with other members?

MR THULO: I want to clarify this for the Committee. Every day the information gathered was supposed to be forwarded to them, because at that stage I was the junior member in that unit, I would not do things on my own.

MR KOOPEDI: So what you're saying is, all the information that you got you discussed it with the other members of the unit?

MR THULO: That's what I did, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: And flowing from the questions you've just answered, was there any other unit to your knowledge, that was operating in Lesotho, doing the same job you were doing, gathering information on liberation movements?

MR THULO: To my knowledge we were the only unit performing that task, I did not know of any other units that might have been in Lesotho.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Let's go back to where we were before we were interrupted. When did you start preparing for your son's baptismal party?

MR THULO: I'm not quite sure as to the dates, but before the baptismal there's a certain duty, the parent to the child has to attend certain classes, now in some of the days I would pick up my wife and take her to these classes.

MR KOOPEDI: But when was this, when did you start these preparations? When did you start being absent from work because you were preparing for the baptismal party?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should rephrase your question because he understands the taking to the classes which you and I know, before the actual thing you've got to attend those classes and there would be preparations for the actual baptismal. I think we should get that - we should rather rephrase it along those lines, because your first question, the answer suggests that he did not understand you at all.

MR KOOPEDI: I'll start afresh.

You said in your evidence that at some stage you did not go to work every day, is that correct?

MR THULO: If you understood me well, not to mean I did not attend at all, what I would do would be to ask a few hours and attend to the family matters.

MR KOOPEDI: Now if I understand what you're saying correctly, are you saying that there is not a single day that you stayed away from work because you were preparing for your son's baptismal?

MR THULO: I am saying I requested hours from work, not totally abstain from work, no.

MR KOOPEDI: I heard you say, perhaps I will check my record, I heard you say there were days where you didn't go to work because you were preparing for your son's baptismal and that is why you didn't get to know some of these things. So did I hear you wrong?

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: I say he might not have heard everything, but the answer is as he's giving it now. That he used to ask for a few hours to go and attend to such preparations, but not that he took some time off work.

Would I be correct, Mr Thulo?

MR THULO: You are correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Let's go to this farm. Prior to the day Betty Boom was taken, is it correct that you had no knowledge of the existence of this farm?

MR THULO: That is correct, Chair.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you went to fetch Betty Boom, where did you think you're taking her?

MR THULO: When we left Lesotho we were going to Ladybrand, I was driving the vehicle, I was instructed, I was being given directions until we got to the farm.

MR KOOPEDI: Who was giving you instructions, directions?

MR THULO: It's Mr Jagga.

MR KOOPEDI: When you got to this farm, did you gain the impression that your colleagues know their way around this farm?

MR THULO: That was not my impression, but they freely unlocked the door, they freely got into the house. That would give you an impression that they knew the farm.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for how long did you work in this farm personally?

MR THULO: I'm not quite sure, but six, if not seven days.

MR KOOPEDI: You didn't use the farm for about two months?

MR THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: I put it to you that's what you said in your evidence-in-chief, that you worked and used this farm for two months.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I object, that is not what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, Mr Koopedi, he did not.

MR KOOPEDI: ...(inaudible - no microphone)

You said in your evidence-in-chief that you were used to guard Betty. Now during the times that you were guarding her, did you have any conversations with her?

MR THULO: I did not ask any important thing from her.

MR KOOPEDI: What does that mean? Does it mean you don't know what you spoke to her about?

MR THULO: I recall what I asked Betty, I asked her where she was from. I think to me it was important to know where she comes from, but as far her work is concerned I did not ask her anything.

MR KOOPEDI: So you did not discuss the fact that she was an informer?

MR THULO: I did not touch that one.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for her to leave the room where both of you were, did she need to get your permission to do that, or someone else's permission?

MR THULO: She asked permission to go to the ladies room, otherwise she was not allowed to go anywhere.

MR KOOPEDI: Was she ever refused to go anywhere?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did she want to go?

MR THULO: May I explain this? When I say she was not allowed to go anywhere, it means she was not allowed to go outside, she was not allowed to take walks around the house. Yes, that's my explanation. She was not allowed to go anywhere.

MR KOOPEDI: Nomasonto. When Nomasonto was fetched, when exactly were you told that Nomasonto was going to be fetched?

MR THULO: Chairperson, all these acts, in all these acts I would not be informed a day before, I was informed on the day of the incident. I was informed on that day of fetching Nomasonto.

MR KOOPEDI: And when you fetched Nomasonto and you went to the border, did you produce anything? Did you produce your passport, your six months no stamp passport?

MR THULO: When we got to the border, Chairperson, I do not recall producing any passport, I stopped, I greeted the policemen at the border and I was allowed to pass, that's all.

MR KOOPEDI: And when you - on this day, the day you went for Nomasonto, how long had it been that Betty was kept at the farm?

MR THULO: It could have been a day, if I recall Chairperson, I'm not sure.

MR KOOPEDI: And you also were given no information why Nomasonto was being fetched or abducted?

MR THULO: Chairperson, not on a single day was I given a reason why I had to do something, I was only given an instruction or a command to go with Jantjie or Jagga, to go into Lesotho, no further explanation than that one.

MR KOOPEDI: Was it your impression that all these people that are being fetched, they are fetched voluntarily?

MR THULO: I believe so, because not all of them would get into a car without any force being used, without any pressure.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did it not seem strange to have people who have been fetched voluntarily, to have such people guarded?

MR THULO: Even if it looks strange, there was nothing I could do.

MR KOOPEDI: But did it ...(inaudible)

MR THULO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Tax. The same thing happened, you were told on the same day and you didn't know anything, you just went, collected and came back, is that correct?

MR THULO: Okay. Now with regards to Mbulelo, so-called KK, what made you defy the order that you were given?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, who says he defied an order? On what evidence is this question based?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you rephrase ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR KOOPEDI: I'll rephrase, Chairperson, gladly so.

Is it correct that you were ordered to go and recruit Mbulelo?

CHAIRPERSON: No, fetch.

MR KOOPEDI: No, Chairperson, they were sent to go and recruit. That's what I heard.

MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson. "Sent to go and fetch, alternatively bring back".

MR LAX: Sorry, you just used the word fetch, Mr Visser, recruit ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VISSER: Sorry - recruit. I stand corrected. "Recruit, alternatively, if there's a problem, bring back if it's possible".

MR KOOPEDI: Right. Do we agree that your order was firstly to recruit this person?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it was the instruction: "Go and recruit him and if you do not succeed, take him."

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you recruit him?

MR THULO: We did not try to recruit him, because of the reasons that I've given. On our way we thought this man is an MK member and we don't know how dangerous is he where he was, that's where we decided to go and ask for assistance from the Lesotho police.

MR KOOPEDI: So if you, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are given an order to do recruiting, if it fails you're given an option and you decide not to act or not to execute that order, were you not defying the order?

MR THULO: We were given an instruction that is twofold, to recruit, if not, come with him. I think we managed to fulfil one of the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: That's not how I understood it. Your evidence is you are asked to go and recruit, if you do not succeed you then bring him. But you have not recruited in this instance and you go into the other alternative. Now I'd like to know if that's not defying an order?

MR THULO: No, I did not defy any order.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Well I put it to you that you defied this order and that your subsequent actions were not based on any order, you acted on your own.

MR THULO: I do not agree with what you're saying, we executed one of the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you were in this room where Mbulelo was found together with two ladies, you have conceded that there may have been a third lady, so I don't think there's a problem ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Not a third lady, a second lady, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: A second lady, meaning there might have been three people. Was anyone assaulted in there by you or the Lesotho police?

MR THULO: No, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Was anyone threatened in that room?

MR THULO: No, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Everything went peacefully, police searched, found a grenade and Mbulelo agreed to be arrested peacefully?

MR THULO: Chairperson, it is not common for the police to assault a person when they arrest him. They explained themselves who they were, they searched the house, they found the grenade, they told KK: "We are arresting you man". No-one of them assaulted him or threatened him.

MR KOOPEDI: And can you recall who were the two Lesotho policeman or Basotho policemen that helped you on that day?

MR THULO: Chairperson, not by names. We were calling each - when we met with the policemen from Lesotho, we called each other "swari", brother-in-law.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's go to this Roma Police Station ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, would this be a convenient time just to take a five minutes break for the Interpreters to catch their breath?

MR KOOPEDI: It is Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for five minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ... I don't know whether to call it a room or chambers but I'm accustomed to chambers, so I'm comfortable with chambers. But just to be focused, you were asking a question about Roma, let's just finish that question on Roma Police Station, Mr Koopedi.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: (cont)

I must say I already had thrown away my books.

Mr Thulo, when you got to the Roma Police Station, did you say you remained in the car and Jantjie went out?

MR THULO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you also spoke about this person whom you know from some headquarters. Who is this person?

MR THULO: Chairperson, this person referred to me as "swari" as I have mentioned, and I also called him "swari". In other words, brother-in-law". That's how we knew each other.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay Chairperson, that's what I wanted to find out about this Roma Police Station, the name of this person from Head Office.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What time would be best? Ten, nine-thirty? Just to be on the safe side, Mr Visser shouldn't we make it ten?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, we are normally here earlier, but perhaps if you will grant the indulgence of starting at 10 o'clock, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We have come to the hour past four and we will adjourn today to tomorrow at ten.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS