Amnesty Hearings

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, thank you. Visser on record.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)

Just tell us Mr Makhubalo, is the intention with your evidence here, to support the applications for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai?

INTERPRETER: The headphones for the applicants are not working.

MR VISSER: The headphones for whom? Mr Makhubalo, can I make a suggestion. Just push the plug at the bottom of your, just push it in. He can't hear me Mr Chairman. Can you hear me now?

INTERPRETER: He doesn't hear the interpretation, he hears the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Will the Interpreter please speak to him and see if he can hear the Interpreter.

INTERPRETER: No, he doesn't hear.

MR MAKHUBALO: Yes, I am able to hear now.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, I will repeat my question to you. Is the purpose of your evidence here to support the applications for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai?

MR MAKHUBALO: No, that is not correct.

MR VISSER: Do you not believe that if they are able to obtain amnesty, that you would be placed in a better position to obtain reparation?

MR MAKHUBALO: I want to explain to the Committee that what is my intention to be here, is that I want to know the truth and tell the truth that I was tortured and assaulted.

MR VISSER: All right. I understood you yesterday to say that you were arrested on many occasions and taken to Fountains building of the Security Branch, is that correct?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Can you roughly give us an idea of how many times you were arrested and taken to that building?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said many times and I am not able to remember how many times.

MR VISSER: Roughly would it have been more than six times?

MR MAKHUBALO: It is more than that.

MR VISSER: Okay. Were you, when you were arrested on each occasion, were you handcuffed?

MR MAKHUBALO: At times I would be handcuffed, and at times I would not be handcuffed.

MR VISSER: Were you taken to the 5th floor of that building every time?

MR MAKHUBALO: I was taken to Fountain building, I don't know which floor I was taken to.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, you told us here yesterday that you were taken to the office of Mr Mamome, do you remember that?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: On which floor is that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't know that sir.

MR VISSER: Was that the first time that you ever went to that office?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't know sir.

MR VISSER: Is there any specific reason why you can't help us with the floors, Mr Makhubalo, where you were taken more than six times?

MR MAKHUBALO: I hated that place, and I am still hating that place today.

MR VISSER: All right. On the occasions, the other occasions, the six times, more than six times that you spoke about, when you went there were you assaulted or tortured?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you give us information about that? When did it happen, what was it about? Who tortured you and why?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said when I started speaking, that it is in many times being taken to that place and secondly I am not able to remember the people who took roles in so many times. I am not able to remember those people, the perpetrators.

MR VISSER: I see. All right. You see because it is my impression of your evidence yesterday, that you were assaulted or tortured if you wish, only on one occasion on two days. Am I right with that impression?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't know as to whether you want me to tell you that you are telling a lie because I said I had been assaulted there many times.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I didn't understand your answer. Who is telling a lie?

MR MAKHUBALO: The opposite of the truth is a lie. I said I were there many times and in those instances, I was assaulted.

MR VISSER: But you can't tell us by whom, when it happened or why it happened. You can't tell us that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I will tell you the reasons why it happened. Some of the names I mentioned yesterday which are on your table.

MR VISSER: Is that your answer?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: All right, perhaps somebody understands it. I put to you again Mr Makhubalo, yesterday you told this Committee of an assault or a torture on you, perpetrated on you on one occasion and that is when you came with 18 others from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and that assault or torture perpetrated on you, took place on two days, two consecutive days. Am I right in saying that?

MR MAKHUBALO: You are not telling the truth.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the applicant, I understood him to say that he had been assaulted on that occasion. I don't understand the scope of my honoured colleague's question to him.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, could I ask my learned friend to repeat because I was listening to the translation and it is clear to me that a lot has been left out. I would like to listen to the Afrikaans, if he could just repeat what he is saying, please.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear you now, Mr Visser.

ADV DE JAGER: I think you switched to Afrikaans, and you didn't switch down the Afrikaans channel when you spoke about addressing, but carry on now. I think we will be able to hear you now.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, my objection is that I get the impression from the evidence of the witness, that on the occasion when he testified on this particular incident, when he and 18 other people were arrested at Ladybrand, that for three consecutive days, he was assaulted.

And the statement made by my honoured friend, says that it was two consecutive days and that is then the objection to the question.

MR VISSER: May I reply Mr Chairman. My learned friend is wrong with all due respect. Clearly the evidence that he was taken there on four days, consecutive days, he was assaulted on the first and the second day. He gave no evidence whatsoever about what happened on the third, and he said on the fourth day he was taken to hospital.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I specifically recall asking that after the third day, what was the condition of the witness and he pertinently told us that his face was swollen.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps I could assist. My notes is I was assaulted in one office, torturing for the whole day, went out in the dark, taken to Heidedal. On the third day, same routine, I could not speak, could not eat. Thereafter back to Heidedal police office. On the fourth day, round about eleven o'clock at night I met particular Doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my note also.

MR VISSER: We accept that and we withdraw the question, Mr Chairman. May I then rephrase it to you. Is it your evidence that only on one occasion were you arrested or tortured, on three consecutive days?

MR STANDER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, I have a problem. The Interpreter is just speaking to me, he cannot follow. I would just like to be given a moment to sort it out.

Would you please bear with us, Mr Chairman? Thank you Mr Chairperson, I apologise, it was a problem with the interpreting service, we sorted it out.

MR VISSER: May I continue, Mr Chairman, thank you. I just put it to you Mr Makhubalo, that on your evidence as it stands before this Committee, you were assaulted once at the building where the Security Branch offices were, at Fountain Street on one occasion on three consecutive days. Do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: How can you put that if he has just told us he was assaulted on many occasions?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have given him the opportunity to tell us about it, and he says he can't.

MR STANDER: With the greatest respect, he has pertinently told us that he cannot recall every particular instance of who assaulted him, but he was assaulted on each occasion that he was taken to that place.

MR VISSER: Well, obviously he never said that. Mr Makhubalo, I will give you another opportunity. Tell us about the other assaults, apart from this one occasion which I referred to if you can.

MR MAKHUBALO: From 1984 until 1989, I was a victim of the Security Branch. I am not able to remember those people who take part in my assault or torture in that duration, but the only thing I can tell is that I was tortured during that period.

MR VISSER: All right. Can you tell us why you were tortured?

MR MAKHUBALO: I took part in COSAS. I was the Chairperson of the Mangawu Youth Congress. That was a problem to them, that is why I was tortured.

MR VISSER: The Security Branch members knew what you have just told us. They knew you were the President of COSAS, they knew about your activities, isn't that correct? They knew about it?

MR MAKHUBALO: I never said I was the President of Mangawu Youth Congress, not COSAS.

MR VISSER: Yes, sorry, and the Security Branch people knew that all along?

MR MAKHUBALO: Yes, they did.

MR VISSER: Yes, then there would be no purpose for them to torture you to tell them that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understood he said that, he said he was tortured because he was that, have that position, not to tell them that.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, I refer you to page 3, paragraph 4 of your affidavit. Have you got it in front of you?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: That paragraph says the torturing was done to confess my activities in the Mangawu Youth Congress which organisation was affiliated to the United Democratic Front, is that correct?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now if the police knew that, why would they torture you to confess it?

CHAIRPERSON: Knew what Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I think it is perfectly obvious, that he was the President of the Mangawu Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit says my activities in the Congress. That is a very different thing from the office I held. They wanted to know what he was doing, according to the affidavit.

MR VISSER: And I asked him.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked him, if they knew that, why did they torture you. They knew he was the President. There has been no evidence that they knew what his activities were Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Did you see any person being assaulted on these numerous occasions when you were taken to that building?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Blood against the walls?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said that.

MR VISSER: Did this happen on every occasion when you were taken to this building, that you saw this?

MR MAKHUBALO: May you explain your question clearly so that - do you mean that every time when I went there, there were blood stains?

MR VISSER: I am asking you that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Visser, the witness asked you to explain whether when you say you saw that every occasion, whether you mean he saw the blood every occasion, or whether he saw the assault on every occasion. He is asking you to explain that.

MR VISSER: I am referring to the blood. Did you see blood splashed on the walls of the passage every time you went to that building, when you were arrested on these numerous occasions which you told us about?

MR MAKHUBALO: No, that is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on. You've told us you were tortured on each or many occasions. What do you mean by torture. Will you tell us what was done to you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I was beaten.

CHAIRPERSON: With fists or with weapons?

MR MAKHUBALO: They were using electric shocks to my private parts.

CHAIRPERSON: What else did they do to you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I am going to have problems here, because am I asking about this particular incident, when we were arrested being 19 or in all the instances when I was detained.

CHAIRPERSON: No, in the other. You said there were all these incidents that you were detained and tortured. I am just asking what type of torture did they use on those occasions. Not the 19, you've told us about that in detail.

MR MAKHUBALO: I was kicked and I was hit with fists and they would hit my head against the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was violent, physical assault?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is assault.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they then let you go?

MR MAKHUBALO: I was detained.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times?

MR MAKHUBALO: The way I was detained so many times, I am not able to remember how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you kept?

MR MAKHUBALO: I was detained at Grootvlei, Clan police station, Three Ways police station, Batu police station. Grootvlei prison, Three Ways police station, Clan police station and Batu police station and Ramkraal police station.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I heard the Interpreter saying Ramkraal police station, but there is no such police station. It is a prison in fact, which is called by the community of Bloemfontein, Ramkraal.

Moreover, I want to place on record that Three Ways police station, is called this by the community, although it is actually the Heidedal police station.

MR MAKHUBALO: The last one is Bloemspruit. That is police station. Ramkraal is Bloemfontein prison.

MR VISSER: Can you give us the name of one person on any of those occasions, who assaulted you?

MR MAKHUBALO: Motsamai, Mamome.

MR VISSER: Thank you. Is that all the perpetrators that you can remember that assaulted you at any time?

MR MAKHUBALO: You said I should give you one name, so I gave you an extra name. You didn't say I should give you names of people I remember. But if you need me to give you the list of people who took part in my assault, I will give you against the list I gave yesterday.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, let's make it perfectly clear. I am not referring to the incident which Mr Motsamai gave evidence about.

CHAIRPERSON: But your question Mr Visser, was all the perpetrators who assaulted you at any time.

MR VISSER: And he is now giving us the two names about this one occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: And he has offered to give you the list of names. You said at any time, you did not exclude that incident. I am merely pointing that out to you so that you should phrase your questions carefully.

MR VISSER: Apart from the time where Mr Motsamai, according to you, and Mr Mamome, suffocated you in Mr Mamome's office, can you give us any names of any other people who assaulted you or tortured you at any other time?

CHAIRPERSON: You are now confining it, you don't want to know what happened in Mamome's office? You do still want to know what happened on the 4th floor on that day, I take it?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, my question, with great respect, I say, is perfectly clear. The question here is, we have got one incident here, I am not talking about that incident, I am talking about the other incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do that, don't talk to him and say apart from Motsamai and Mamome who tortured you in Mamome's office, because we know the evidence is that the other torture took place on a different floor, exclude the whole of that incident when they were 19 people there, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Did you understand what the Chairman has just said?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you give us any names please?

MR MAKHUBALO: The way I was tortured, some of the names I am not able to remember. The people I know are those I have already given a list, appear on the list I have already mentioned yesterday.

MR VISSER: Are you therefore saying that the list that you gave in paragraph 5 of your affidavit, are the people who tortured you not only on the occasion when the 19 of you were brought from Ladybrand, but also on all the other occasions when you were arrested, apart from that incident?

MR MAKHUBALO: I say to you some of the names I don't remember. But mainly I appear on the list I have written on there.

MR VISSER: All right, let us confine ourselves now to the three days when you said you were assaulted in the building at Fountain Street, do you understand that?

ADV DE JAGER: I think we should clear this up now. I have also a difficulty now in understanding. On the other occasions, not the Ladybrand transfer occasion when he was arrested because he left the country, on the other occasions, the many other occasions you were arrested and detained, who assaulted you on those occasions?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't know how to answer this question. But I say I am not able to remember the names of all the people who took part in my torture. But some of the people who took part in some occasions, are those appearing on the list.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, please repeat the names and tell us when they assaulted you on other occasions that you can remember them assaulting you.

MR MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, if you want me to enlist those names, that is Swanepoel, Tereblanche, Mamome, Erasmus, Tsoametsi, Motsamai, Miningwa.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, then please, can you tell me, did they assault you on every other occasion, or did some of them assault you on some occasions and others on other occasions?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said to you I don't remember because I was tortured many times.

But many of the names I have mentioned, were present.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, that is my problem Mr Makhubalo. You say many of the names I have mentioned, were present. Now that implicates all of them were not present and you implicate the persons and if possible, and if it is not possible, I accept it, but you have repeated the names and you have implicated them in some of the assaults.

But then you say many of them were present and that also includes that you exclude some of them, because you don't say all of them were present or all of them assaulted me. And we want to know who in fact assaulted you.

MR MAKHUBALO: I am not able to mention particular names, because I am not able to remember all of them, but those I have enlisted here, I am saying in many instances they took part in the torture to inflict pain and torture me.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you understand the question. What my colleague wants to know is simply if you could say well, on one occasion I remember it was Constable so and so. I can't remember who else was there on that occasion.

On another occasion it was Constable so and so. Can't you remember any one of these people having assaulted you on a particular occasion?

MR MAKHUBALO: I cannot recall all the instances. I cannot recall people who took part in my torturing all the instances, but particularly to this one, I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody is asking you about all the instances, Mr Makhubalo. They are asking you are there any separate instance that you remember. I think that is what Mr Visser wants.

MR NTSEBEZA: But with all respect, if you can't remember the instances because there were too many, I cannot see how you can remember certain names and attach them to a particular instance if in the first instance, you can't recall an instance. I think that we are just, you know, wasting a lot of time, because the witness just cannot remember the occasions.

MR VISSER: I was just going to suggest Mr Chairman, I will make submissions in argument about this evidence of this morning. I will step off it.

Can I now please confine your attention to the incident where you and 18 other people were arrested by the South African Defence Force, taken to Ladybrand and brought to Bloemfontein on one morning, between ten and eleven o'clock? You know what I am talking about now? Just that one incident.

MR MAKHUBALO: Yes, I do. I know that incident very well.

MR VISSER: On the Monday, I am sorry, on the first day was Mr Ngo present, did you see him there in the building?

MR MAKHUBALO: Yes, he was present.

MR VISSER: Did he do anything to you?

MR MAKHUBALO: He was one of those people who took part in the torture or assault.

MR VISSER: Was this in Tereblanche's office?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What did he do, Ngo?

MR MAKHUBALO: He tortured me, he assaulted me.

MR VISSER: Please Mr Makhubalo, what did he do to you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I was assaulted in that office. For me to remember that one was pushing a finger to me or doing this to me, but what I can say is that he took part in my assault.

MR VISSER: All right, let's turn to Mr Motsamai. You heard his evidence here when he gave evidence, when he explained how you were placed on a chair and your hands, he said, tied behind your back. Do you remember that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I remember that, sir.

MR VISSER: And how you were then suffocated.

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you also remember why he said that was done?

MR MAKHUBALO: Can you repeat your questions?

MR VISSER: Well, let me put it to you, he said that was done because they, referring to himself and Mr Mamome , wanted to know about you having skipped the country to receive MK training. Did you hear him saying that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I heard him, sir.

MR VISSER: Is that the truth?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You are certain that the torture which we referred to just now, wasn't for the purpose of recruiting you as an informant?

MR MAKHUBALO: In Mamome's office, that is where I was recruited.

MR VISSER: Are you saying now that there were two reasons why you were tortured? One because you were being recruited and secondly because they wanted to know about you skipping the country?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Wasn't there also a reason that you had to confess to your activities in MICO and in COSAS?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: To make it absolutely clear, there were therefore according to your evidence, three reasons why you were tortured in Mamome's office, suffocated with a tube? Is that your evidence?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you tell the Committee that yesterday when you gave your evidence? Why didn't you say to the Committee look I was tortured by suffocation with a tube and the reason why that was done was for these three reasons I was told.

Because I put it to you that is not your evidence.

MR MAKHUBALO: If you are asked a question, you just give a relevant answer. Then if I may be given an opportunity to explain after answering a question, that could have helped, or that would help to give you a detailed information.

MR VISSER: All right. Let's run through your evidence please. Mr Makhubalo, with your assistance, let's try to do this quickly. Mr Mamome tells me that you were in fact arrested by him. He also thinks it was in 1986.

And he will, when his turn comes to give evidence, he will give the following evidence and please, I will give you an opportunity to react every time I tell you what he is going to say.

He will say that he himself, that is Mamome, Mr Motsamai, Ramoseou, Morakile, Mtyala and Lesale went in a kombi to go and arrest you. First of all, can you agree or disagree that those were the people who were present when you were arrested?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, we would like some clarity on when this occasion would have been.

MR VISSER: I am referring to your evidence Mr Makhubalo, the first item which you started giving evidence about when you said in 1986 you were arrested, early in 1986, when you went to visit your friend Monakule Mtabo, do you know what I am talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: This was the occasion wasn't it, when he said he was shot at and ran away and was then arrested. Do you remember that occasion?

MR MAKHUBALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: My question is, can you dispute the names I have given you as the people who went to go and arrest you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I will not dispute that because I did not have time to look who were the people in the car. I was just missed with gunshots, then I was running. People I am able to remember is Mamome and Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, you were not blindfolded at any time so that you couldn't see around you, were you on that day?

MR MAKHUBALO: I was never blind.

MR VISSER: Blindfolded, put something over your head so that you couldn't see. Did that happen?

MR MAKHUBALO: If a person is nervous, he cannot concentrate. Then I wasn't concentrating the identity of the people who arrested me.

MR VISSER: I see, all right. This person that you referred to as Monakule Mtabo. Is his name also Monase?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is an abbreviation for Monakule.

MR VISSER: Right. Did you see him in the kombi after you were arrested?

MR MAKHUBALO: I saw him at Fountain. He was full of blood. He was bloodstained after he was sjamboked.

MR VISSER: Yes, well Mr Makhubalo, would it surprise you that he was the man who came and brought the police to point out where you were? He led the police to you, the Security Branch to you. Would that surprise you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't, can you clarity your question?

MR VISSER: Did you see him in the kombi, you already said no, I didn't. I am putting it to you that he was in the kombi, because he led the members of the Security Branch, which I put to you just now, to where you were. He knew where you were and he took them there.

MR MAKHUBALO: That is a lie. He never went with the police. Even today I will never believe that he worked with the police.

MR NTSEBEZA: How can you guarantee that on behalf of somebody Mr Makhubalo? Can you really guarantee that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I lived with him. I am still living with him even today.

MR VISSER: All right. Mr Mamome says, you are quite right, he was the driver of the kombi. He says that when he saw you, when they saw you, they stopped and he called you. Did that happen?

MR MAKHUBALO: He is lying.

MR VISSER: Do you have any idea why he would lie about that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I think that ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: I presume it is only about the calling you that he is lying, because there were three statements. He was the driver, do you agree with that, Mamome?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And he stopped, do you agree with that too?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And then the evidence would be that he called you?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is why I say he is telling a lie.

MR VISSER: And my question to you is why do you think would he lie about that?

MR MAKHUBALO: When the car stopped, Mr Mamome he started by shooting. Then after that, then I ran.

MR VISSER: Let's just deal with that point and get done with. Did you think that Mr Mamome wanted to kill you, is that what you thought?

MR MAKHUBALO: If he didn't want to kill me, he couldn't have shot, so I think so.

MR VISSER: Yes. And you told us that he tripped you and you were arrested by him later after you ran away?

MR MAKHUBALO: He didn't trip me, he kicked me and then I lost my teeth thereafter.

MR VISSER: All right. Are you saying that Mr Mamome, on that day when you were arrested, never tripped you? Are you saying that? I want to make it absolutely clear?

MR MAKHUBALO: There is again this problem of interpretation. What I am saying is that Mr Mamome kicked me.

MR VISSER: And I am asking you is your evidence that he never tripped you on that day?

MR MAKHUBALO: I fell on the ground after he made me to fall. And then thereafter he kicked me on the mouth.

MR VISSER: I don't know what is so difficult about answering the question, but how did he make you to fall?

MR MAKHUBALO: He made me to fall, then thereafter he kicked me.

MR VISSER: All right, so I have to take that as a no.

CHAIRPERSON: Mightn't there be some difference in interpretation of tripped and made him to fall?

MR VISSER: Well, I would appreciate some assistance, because I am going to argue that this witness is giving evasive evidence or contradictory evidence, because yesterday he told you very clearly that Mamome tripped him. Today he has great difficulty in understanding that.

I don't comprehend that Mr Chairman. Unless, of course, he is lying about it for some reason or other.

MR MAKHUBALO: May you repeat the question. I am thinking that to trip and to make you fall, in my language is one thing. If you interpret it differently, making you to fall and to be tripped, maybe that is a problem.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Visser, I think more appropriately what the witness is saying is that he used, in his own language he used a term which according to him can be interpreted as meaning to trip and he is effectively saying well, it is for the Interpreter in his interpretation to interpret the term I use in my language as trip or cause to fall. that is what he is saying.

MR VISSER: Thank you. So is it really a problem between you and the Interpreter, is that what you are saying?

MR MAKHUBALO: It is a problem of the language?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I think we have a problem here. My learned friend is trying to make a statement that the witness has lied in terms of tripping and falling to the ground as he has just explained to us that it is not in fact so. Judge Ngoepe has also put it clearly, it is not a matter of saying something different yesterday to what he said today.

All that he has said is that the term to be brought down or fall down can be interpreted in two ways in English or Afrikaans, and it is not a case that he is trying to lie. If my learned friend is trying to suggest that he is making a lie, then I wish to object to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this a matter for argument?

MR VISSER: That is precisely. The only thing, in fairness to the witness Mr Chairman, is I wanted him to confirm what Judge Ngoepe had said, is that he has got a problem with the interpretation, and nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't hear the other interpretation, he doesn't know how it is interpreted, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Fair enough, Mr Chairman. When Mr Mamome says he called you, you came to him, Mr Makhubalo. I take it you will deny that?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: He says that Mr Motsamai was sitting on the seat behind the driver's seat, behind him, in the kombi. Can you deny that?

MR MAKHUBALO: Yes, sir, I deny that.

MR VISSER: Where was Mr Motsamai in the kombi?

MR MAKHUBALO: He was sitting with Mamome in front of the kombi.

MR VISSER: So on that occasion you were able to see very well who sat where in the kombi?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said to you some of the occupants of the kombi I didn't see, but those who were in front, I was supposed to see. I had to see them.

MR VISSER: Why couldn't you also see the person sitting in the rear of the kombi?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said to you I was nervous and the other thing, I was angry, thirdly I was bleeding. I didn't have time to look who were the occupants of the kombi.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, please let us confine ourselves. The kombi has just arrived, do you understand that. Is has just stopped. Mr Mamome says I called Oupa Makhubalo, you say that is not so.

I am putting to you that Mr Motsamai at that stage, was sitting behind Mr Mamome on the back seat, on one of the back seats of the kombi. And I am asking you can you deny that? Do you remember that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I deny that even now.

MR VISSER: And I am asking you this, why didn't you see the other people in the kombi at that time?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said to you I was supposed to see Mamome, because you just said to me that he was driving. There was no possibility that I could not see him, and Motsamai was in front, and when I entered the kombi, I was on the second seat from the front, then I didn't look back who was at the back of me.

MR VISSER: All right. The evidence will be from the occupants of this kombi, that Motsamai opened the window on the right hand side, behind the driver's seat and pointed the firearm at you. Is that correct?

MR MAKHUBALO: If they are going to come with that, I am not going to respond to that.

MR VISSER: That is your free choice. You then turned around and ran away. I am putting it to you.

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The people in the kombi got out and ran after you, pursued you?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And I want to put it to you that all of them will say, that not one of them fired any shots, except Motsamai.

MR MAKHUBALO: I would say that is a lie. Because those bullets or maybe the gunshots were more than 12. If Motsamai, he was using a different gun which would be able to shoot so many bullets, then he had time again to reload his gun, what I know is that they came from various directions. I had gunshots from different directions.

MR VISSER: I hear your argument. I am putting to you what the facts are.

The facts are that Mr Motsamai started firing at you from inside the kombi already, as you ran away.

MR MAKHUBALO: I say to you, the person who started shooting is Mamome, whilst he was still inside the car. As to whether Motsamai shot from the car, I am not able to verify that.

But by that time I started running.

MR VISSER: Is it not correct that Mamome drove the kombi, down Calla Street and into King Street, I think it was called King Street Mr Chairman, I maybe wrong. He turned right into - I am sorry Mr Chairman, just for a moment I forgot the name of the other street, it was Calla Street and King, thank you Mr Chairman.

He turned around in King Street and he blocked your escape with the car, isn't that so?

MR MAKHUBALO: Maybe there is something you don't understand here, I said to you I was running and I heard gunshots. I had no time to look what he was doing, what. My purpose was to save my life and that is all.

MR VISSER: Yes, he will say that when you saw the kombi, you turned around and you tried to run in a different direction.

MR MAKHUBALO: Sir, I said to you I was not looking at the kombi, I wanted to save my life. I was running, that is all.

MR VISSER: He will say that he got out of the kombi and he was able to trip you so that you fell and he was able to then arrest you.

MR MAKHUBALO: The way I ran and for a distance, I got tired. Whether to say he tripped me, that is true. To say when he went out of the kombi, I don't know and when he turned the kombi, I don't know.

MR VISSER: You were then placed in the kombi, together with your friend, Monase and you were then taken directly to be detained in terms of the MR docket for the murder of Mr Nkosi.

MR MAKHUBALO: Can you repeat the last part of your question? You said to me I was taken with my friend, I said I saw my friend at Fountain. I didn't see him in the kombi.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Visser, the way we argued about the words trip, I would have thought it was not common cause.

MR VISSER: What was not common cause.

JUDGE NGOEPE:: I say the way we wasted a lot of time about the word trip, whether he was tripped or not, I would have thought it was not common cause.

MR VISSER: It has been denied, it is now again being admitted. What is the point Mr Chairman?

JUDGE NGOEPE:: Is it not common cause that he was tripped? Am I under a wrong impression?

MR VISSER: We say he was, but we understood him not to wish to concede it this morning, but you explained to us that there was a problem of interpretation, we have now gone away from that.

I am not there at all, I am putting the version of Mr Mamome, so that you can understand what he is going to say.

JUDGE NGOEPE:: Just regretting the fact that we wasted a lot of time about something which was common cause, which was not denied earlier by your client any way, it was just in passing.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, but this witness denied it this morning. Or so I understood it. You've now told us that it was an interpretation problem, we have accepted it.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I have to object. I don't think at any stage, that the witness today has denied ... (intervention)

JUDGE NGOEPE:: I think we know that he never denied that, Mr Stander.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you accepted that it would be an interpretational problem, and we left it. That is you do not suggest he denied having done so?

MR VISSER: No, I thought so this morning, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But now, you can't say he denied it, if you said a minute ago. Let's just get on Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Where am I?

CHAIRPERSON: We got to the stage where he denied that his friend was in the kombi when he got in, he said he saw him in Fountain.

MR VISSER: It will be denied, I don't know whether I put this, I have been interrupted so many times, it will be denied by ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just say you have been interrupted because you were being putting things that were incorrect, will you now kindly go on.

MR VISSER: It will be denied by Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Ramoseou and Morakile that they ever fired a shot on the day when you were arrested.

MR MAKHUBALO: They are still given a chance to apply for amnesty if they are still continuing, they will be telling a lie. I would like to make an appeal that the opportunity is still available for them to apply for amnesty but if they continue with that, they will be telling this Committee a lie.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Makhubalo for the advice. Now, you were taken, I want to take you now to the incident, perhaps just the last point on this. You said you were found not guilty and discharged of the allegation of murder of Mr Nkosi. Is that what I understood you to say?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: It is technical, but I just have to put it to you, is it not true that the charge was withdrawn against you? You were not tried and found not guilty, the charge was withdrawn? Do you know what the difference is?

MR MAKHUBALO: If you are telling me about the legal procedure, but what I know is that I was acquitted, then I went home, that is what I know.

MR VISSER: Let's just talk for a minute about Mr Nkosi. You told us that you were present in a hall when Mr Nkosi was asked, I think you said to give an explanation about the allegation that he was an informer. Have I got that more or less right?

MR MAKHUBALO: Did I say who was present?

MR VISSER: I didn't ask you that, please will you answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: What was put to you was that you were present, which is what you told us. You must listen to what Counsel put to you.

JUDGE NGOEPE:: Sorry, in all fairness to the witness Mr Visser, he is not Nkosi, he is Kosi, so that is why this witness is saying who are you referring to.

MR VISSER: I am referring to a gentleman by the name of Nkosi, Nkosi, who was the informant of Mr Motsamai.

MR MAKHUBALO: I have a problem here, because you talk of a person I don't know. I don't know Nkosi.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, Gosi. Not Nkosi, that is a different surname.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you know a person by the name of Gosi who was killed?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was it suspected that he was an informer?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: For Mr Motsamai?

MR MAKHUBALO: I am not account to that.

MR VISSER: But please Mr Makhubalo, did you not tell us yesterday that the whole problem arose because Mr Motsamai went there with the Security Branch motor car to Gosi's house?

MR MAKHUBALO: I never said that.

MR VISSER: You never said that, all right. Perhaps I am mistaken again. Was it ever stated whose informer he was, or was it simply stated Gosi you are an informant of the Security Police. Is that what was stated?

MR MAKHUBALO: I never worked with the Security Branch so they will not tell us about their informers. I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: So what on earth was the meeting about?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I also do not understand the question.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, perhaps we could help. What did Mr Gosi have to explain to the meeting, why was he called to the meeting and what had he to explain to the meeting?

MR MAKHUBALO: He was just asked to comment about his involvement with the Security Police.

MR VISSER: What was that involvement alleged to have been?

MR MAKHUBALO: His cooperation with the Security Branch.

MR VISSER: What was that cooperation alleged to have been?

MR MAKHUBALO: To sell people.

MR VISSER: To give information about people?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was that so difficult? Isn't it also true that Mr Ngo while he was still at school, was also an informer of the police?

MR MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you knew that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I knew that when he was attacked.

MR VISSER: By White Mohapi and others?

MR MAKHUBALO: I do not know who attacked him, because they were at a different school.

MR VISSER: Did you never hear that Mr White Mohapi was charged on attempted murder of Mr Ngo?

MR MAKHUBALO: I heard about that.

MR VISSER: All right, we are busy with the incident at Fountains building. Mamome says that he never did anything to you that day and I will tell you why not, in a moment. You say he suffocated you?

CHAIRPERSON: This is the 19 incident?

MR VISSER: This is the Bloemfontein 19 incident, where you are at Fountains building and you say you were suffocated by Motsamai and Mr Mamome. Now, he says and this might be another surprise to you, that among the group of 19 who were arrested by the South African Defence Force, there were two of his informers.

Did you know that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I say I was not working with the Security Branch, I would not know the informers.

MR VISSER: Okay. So you can't deny that. And he says that he was anxious to go and see to his informers because obviously the other police wouldn't know that they were informers.

MR MAKHUBALO: Those 19 people who was with me, if he says there were informers in that group, I would say to him he is lying, Mamome is lying.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, you see and Mr Makhubalo, I am not going to give you the names, so we will just have to leave it at that.

MR MAKHUBALO: May I say something?

MR VISSER: Please do.

MR MAKHUBALO: This is the place where we should tell the truth. I think it is important that this people should know those things if it is true that there were informers among us. I don't see any problem why their names cannot be identified.

MR VISSER: Mr Mamome then says that he wasn't there for any other purpose, certainly not for the purpose of assaulting you and definitely not for the reasons which you advance as to why you were tortured.

So, let me break this up. Mr Mamome says he never had anything to do with you on that day, first of all. On the first day that you were brought to Fountains building. You deny that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I say Mamome assaulted me. If he says he didn't do that, we will not force him to tell the truth. But I think that one day his conscience will make it possible that he would look to be like Motsamai and tell the truth.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, let's get on with the evidence, and please would you stop giving the impression of being sanctimonious. We don't need a sermon or a lecture from you please, thank you.

You showed the Committee some marks on your arms, did you not? You are not going to reply to the question are you? All right, I am just going to place on record that on the outer right lower arm, you've got two marks. The longest of which is about two centimetres, Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon. There seems to be a problem here. I don't know if you heard the question because sometimes it happens that the interpretation doesn't come through to me, he might be encountering the same problem.

MR VISSER: I accept that Mr Chairman, I am still just placing something on record. On the left outer arm there is a round mark of about, I would guess, of about 5 milimeters in diameter.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly describe both marks, because I didn't write it down, Mr Visser, please.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, when we looked at the right outer arm, lower arm, just above the wrist, there appear to be two parallel marks. I didn't measure them but I would suggest with respect the longest one is approximately two centimetres, about half an inch.

The shorter one is a bit shorter, it is not really important to say how long that was. On the left arm, Mr Chairman, again above the wrist, there appear to be a round mark, which is a very small mark. He can show you again Mr Chairman, and you could of course differ with me and you will make a different entry if you wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you come here please. I think your measurement may be a little bit short. It may be a little bit longer than half an inch. Two and a half centimetres.

MR VISSER: Oh, I am out with half a centimetre.

CHAIRPERSON: On the left arm, I would suggest it is not a circle, it is a very small straight line, about 5 millimeters I would say.

MR VISSER: I didn't see the straight line, I just saw a little round mark, but I take it.

CHAIRPERSON: It is very difficult, it is a very small mark there.

MR VISSER: That is the only point about the whole affair Mr Chairman, nothing else turns on that.

Just one more thing, I am sorry, I will just have to wait for you to get back to your chair. Are you ready Mr Makhubalo? Let's try to finish before eleven o'clock please. On the left, on your left wrist, there is a protrusion or a bulge, is that correct?

MR MAKHUBALO: It is so sir.

MR VISSER: Is that the result of an old injury which you sustained? Or is that just a normal thing with which you were born?

INTERPRETER: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, the spoken language is not known to the interpreter. I am not able to interpret Xhosa. I will call my colleague now. Mr Chairman, we will continue in Sotho, he is indeed.

ADV DE JAGER: He says he will continue in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it should be recorded for the sake of the interpreters, that the witness had I gather, been speaking Sotho and now switched to Xhosa. Is that so Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: That is so Mr Chairman, yesterday it also happened, but I will leave the matter there.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I think, with respect when he started, he started in Sotho and at some stage during his evidence, he said now I wish to speak in Xhosa and he from yesterday until now, he has been speaking in Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better put the question again, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Makhubalo, when you showed your arms to me, I noticed a protrusion or a bulge just above your wrist. I am asking you whether that is an old injury or whether that is the way you were born?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said to you I was not born like that. What happened here is because of the handcuffs from the Security Police.

MR VISSER: You do understand I am not talking about the marks, I am talking about the round bony part of your, the one that you are touching right now, yes, that.

MR MAKHUBALO: I was born with it.

MR VISSER: Thank you. Mr Tsoametsi will deny that he assaulted you on any occasion, on any day during that occasion when the 19 of you were brought and so will Mr Erasmus and Mr Miningwa and Mr Kopi. All of whom you have implicated without explaining precisely what you say they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the second one?

MR VISSER: Well, we obviously have Mamome. Then we have Erasmus, Miningwa, Kopi. I think those are the ones that I mentioned Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: You mentioned somebody before Erasmus and it sounded like Tsoametsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Tsoametsi, yes.

MR VISSER: That is Tsoametsi whom he implicated something about bitten you will remember, that is spelt Tsoametsi and he said that when he struck a blow at Tereblanche, a turmoil developed and a lot of people came in and these were the people.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is Tsoametsi was separate. Tsoametsi was the one who was there from the beginning and took offence when he tried to ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: That is precisely correct and all I am trying to do is rolled into one, I am just trying to put on record that all of this will be denied.

Are you saying that when Tereblanche ... (intervention)

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I still haven't heard that the witness has been given a chance to answer to this statement made by my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard Counsel say to you that Mr Tsoametsi, Mr Erasmus, Mr Miningwa and Mr Kopi will deny that they assaulted you, what is your reply to that?

MR MAKHUBALO: They will end up in a problem if they continue with that.

MR VISSER: Well you know, that is a strange answer Mr Makhubalo, coming from a person who couldn't tell this Committee what any of them did to you.

MR MAKHUBALO: I will say these people assaulted me. For me not to remember who did what, who did what and what, but I would say they assaulted me. I couldn't have had the operation I had, I couldn't have these marks I have if they would come and say those things.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you for pointing that out.

INTERPRETER: He hasn't finished. They will be telling a lie.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I correct myself for purposes of the record, by excluding Tsoametsi, because there may be some doubt and thank you for pointing that out to me.

In the sense, of course, he doesn't deny it, but in the sense that the last question, perhaps his name shouldn't have been rolled into one with the others.

MR STANDER: I am afraid that I don't understand where my learned friend is heading.

CHAIRPERSON: When he spoke of Tsoametsi, he told us, described what happened. When he spoke of the others, it was a general assault and that is what Mr Visser is explaining, that he put at first a general question, he is now separating them because there was specific evidence about Tsoametsi and the part he played, it was very proper for him to do so. I don't see your difficulty.

MR STANDER: I beg your pardon, I do understand it now.

MR VISSER: None of these people know anything about, none of my clients, know anything about R1 500-00 which was taken off you Mr Makhubalo. Do you have any comment on that?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't remember that they know anything about anything in this proceedings. So it their intention to deny anything in that incident.

MR VISSER: I see you are looking at the audience, but they are not laughing at your joke, but let me just repeat the question. Did you have the R1 500-00 on you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I am not here because people should laugh. That money was with me. All the people that I was with, they knew that I had that money.

MR VISSER: Who took it away from you?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't know who took that money from me, but it was lost in Tereblanche's office.

MR VISSER: Why don't you know who took it from you?

MR MAKHUBALO: What happened is that I was assaulted again. Something was put on my face and at the end of the day, I was naked at some stage.

MR VISSER: Didn't that, wasn't your face covered in Mr Mamome's office?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said to you at Mamome's office, a wet cloth was put on my face. At Tereblanche's office, when I was assaulted, a wet towel was put on my face. I am not able to tell who took the money, but all people who were there, who assaulted me, knew that they had stolen my money.

MR VISSER: Did you at any stage during your numerous arrests, which you told us, more than six, well I think I did ask this question already, but let me just in case I didn't Mr Chairman, did you see blood on the walls. I think I asked the question, thank you Mr Chairman.

Now, just one thing about the blood that you saw there. Was it a lot of blood on the walls? Was it all over the place or were there small drops, what was the situation? Could anybody see it if you walked down the passage?

MR MAKHUBALO: Everybody who walked on that passage, would be able to see those blood stains.

MR VISSER: And when you were taken out, I am sorry, let me first ask you this, did you see blood stains every one of those four days that you went to that building or was it only on one occasion?

MR MAKHUBALO: On our arrival on that day, that is when I saw the blood stains on the wall.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand that, do you mean that as soon as you got there, as you went into the passage, you saw blood stains on the wall?

MR MAKHUBALO: After my comrades were assaulted, when I went to the toilet, I saw those blood stains, that is what I am saying.

MR VISSER: And was it only on that one occasion, the day when you arrived there that you saw the blood stains?

MR MAKHUBALO: I said so.

MR VISSER: Now listen carefully please, Mr Makhubalo. Was Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai, were they both present in that building on that day and did you see them there?

MR MAKHUBALO: They were present.

MR VISSER: You have no doubt of that?

MR MAKHUBALO: They were present.

MR VISSER: So therefore they would probably have seen the blood stains if they walked down that passage, wouldn't they? They would have known about it?

MR MAKHUBALO: You must understand some of these things, these people were Security members. They were among the people who were assaulting these people. Whether they saw or did not see, that is not my problem, but what I am telling you is that blood was there.

MR VISSER: You were later charged with a charge of terrorism and is it correct that at court that charge was withdrawn against you?

MR MAKHUBALO: Do you make me retrogress again about the court case. At the end of the day we were acquitted.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I see it is eleven o'clock. I believe I have finished. If you want to take the short adjournment now, I will go through my notes but I believe I am through, probably through. But I will use the time, if you take the adjournment now and just make absolutely certain.

CHAIRPERSON: You just managed to come in under the time you said Mr Visser, we will take the adjournment.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

OUPA MAKHUBALO: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)

Mr Makhubalo, I put it to you that there was no blood on the walls as you described, to this Committee and I am putting it to you further that you just added that to add a dramatic touch to your story of being assaulted, and your comrades being assaulted.

MR MAKHUBALO: It is unfortunate, if it was possible to emulate me or to be in my position. At that time you could have seen all those things I have mentioned.

MR VISSER: If Mr Motsamai told this Committee that according to his knowledge, there were only assaults or tortures on that group of 19 people on the first day when you were brought to Bloemfontein, and not on subsequent days, would he be making a mistake?

MR MAKHUBALO: I don't understand your question.

MR VISSER: I suggest Mr Makhubalo, that you are the one that is not telling the truth, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

INTERPRETER: He is still talking.

MR MAKHUBALO: I am saying it is unfortunate about what he is saying. If I am lying, it shows that there will be no person who will be sitting here and tell the truth.

MR STANDER: I do not have questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude this victim's testimony? Nobody else wishes to put anything? Thank you.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, may we be afforded the opportunity to call Captain Koja?

ADV DE JAGER: Are there any papers to hand up perhaps?

MR BRITZ: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was coming to that. We have been able to locate certain relevant documents. The first document is a set of three pocket books of Mr Ngo for the period 1987 to approximately August 1988.

Then we have also located the occurrence book of the Mamelodi barracks. I think that goes right to the end of 1989. And then we have also located the if I can call it the record book or the, yes the record book of everybody who was resident at the barracks, indicating that Mr Ngo was resident at the Mamelodi barracks from 5 February 1987. May I beg leave to hand up copies of simply extracts from these documents, which we've made for the Committee's purposes.

The documents are voluminous and obviously we couldn't make copies of everything, we just made certain extracts. Captain Koja has the original documents with him and I will elaborate a little bit more during the evidence in respect of certain of the documents.

Mr Chairman, my Attorney has suggested that he be appointed to the Investigating Unit at the TRC. Mr Chairman, the extracts do not really reflect the amount of times Mr Ngo has referred to in these documents, especially the occurrence book which you find copies of from page 20.

If you inspect the occurrence book, the occurrence book which you find copies of from page 20, if you inspect the occurrence book, the original which we will hand up to you, you will see that Mr Ngo was referred there to probably about every day.

You will see that the nature of the contents of the pocket books, relate usually to inspections of the barracks and it also relates to when he arrived for duty and when he went off duty, and the same goes for the occurrence book. Here and there you will note that there are inscriptions referring to specific visits to other places, and reports of other happenings which I will try to deal with.

Mr Chairman, I don't intend to go through everything in detail and I simply want to introduce in evidence by Captain Koja, just certain inscriptions, just to make it clear for the Committee.

Thank you Mr Chairman, I think the witness' language is Sotho. Captain, can you just look at Judge Ngoepe, please.

CAPTAIN KOJA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I go on, I just want to place something else on record. The documents are quite voluminous. We went through the documents quickly, this morning when I had time, I went through the occurrence book and there will be one or two pages which I want to refer to in the evidence, which are not contained in the bundle and I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it arrangements can be made if necessary to have them duplicated afterwards.

MR BRITZ: We will do so Mr Chairman.

Captain Koja, where are you stationed at this point?

CAPT KOJA: I am stationed at Mamelodi police station.

MR BRITZ: And to what Unit do you belong?

CAPT KOJA: I am at Supportive Unit.

MR BRITZ: Right, Captain and for the period 1983 to 1993, where were you stationed?

CAPT KOJA: I was stationed at South African police station at Barracks in Mamelodi.

MR BRITZ: And what was your position there?

CAPT KOJA: I was the Commander of the barracks in Mamelodi.

MR BRITZ: And who stayed at the barracks, was it just for policemen or what was the purpose of the barracks?

CAPT KOJA: The barracks which I was working at, were only - South African Police blacks were resident at that place.

MR BRITZ: Can you remember if Captain Bokaba was a resident there?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I remember that he was staying there.

MR BRITZ: All right, and Captain Koja, what were your duties at the barracks?

CAPT KOJA: My work was to make it a point that they reach inspections and that police members are given proper accommodation and when they arrive, I should report them to the Area Commissioner and when they leave the barracks, I was the one who was reporting to the Area Commissioner.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain do you know one of the applicants in these applications, but the application we are dealing with specifically, the applicant is Mr Nelson Ngo. Do you know him?

CAPT KOJA: I know him very well.

MR BRITZ: And can you explain to us, during the period when you were in charge of the barracks, did you know Mr Ngo then?

CAPT KOJA: I knew him because he was under my supervision at that time. He worked under my supervision from 1987 when he arrived at the barracks, up to the time when he was arrested.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, in what Unit was Mr Ngo at that time?

CAPT KOJA: He was at Unit 19, Rosslyn in Pretoria.

MR BRITZ: And on what basis was he working for you at the barracks in Mamelodi? How did that happen?

CAPT KOJA: There was what you call a service arrangement, "diensreëling" in Afrikaans. I was called at Unit 19 offices at Rosslyn where there was a problem that members of the Unit 19 were many at Mamelodi barracks. Then I sat down with the Commander and discussed the problem.

Then they handed over Constable Ngo and Constable Ramala, that they should help me at the barracks. They arranged that with me together with the Unit 19 Commander. I went with him from there and then we went to the barracks and worked under my supervision until he was arrested.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, did you see Mr Ngo every day?

CAPT KOJA: That is true.

MR BRITZ: And where did he have to report every day?

CAPT KOJA: He was reporting to me on a daily basis, in the morning and when he knocked off, he reported to me.

MR BRITZ: And what were his responsibilities, what was he supposed to do?

CAPT KOJA: His duty was to see to it that the police of the Unit 19 should have clean sheets and the blankets should be changed on a weekly basis. During the week he would go and inspect the rooms as whether they are still in order and during the day he would go there and saw that the showers are clean.

And then on that day again he would go and collect the post and take it to the police station. Those are the post we used to receive or take, those who were at the barracks. That is the work I gave him.

MR BRITZ: Are you referring to the Mamelodi police station where he had to take the post?

CAPT KOJA: That is correct.

MR BRITZ: And Captain, was Mr Ngo ever sent to the Kompol building, to Security Headquarters?

CAPT KOJA: In regard to the Kompol building, because we worked with different Units, there were different policemen who stayed at the barracks, it was possible that he would go there to those Units and deliver the post.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, there was evidence before this Committee and in a criminal trial of Mr Ngo as well, that he was responsible for the murder of a Mr Venter. Did you know Mr Venter?

CAPT KOJA: I knew the deceased very well. I was with him whilst he was still alive.

MR BRITZ: Can you explain to us exactly how did you come to know Mr Venter and what did you know of Mr Venter and Mr Ngo? Tell us everything you can remember.

CAPT KOJA: Mr Venter arrived in Mamelodi. What happened is that Mr Ngo came with a Cressida car in Mamelodi and Mr Venter, when he arrived at Mamelodi, he requested (indistinct) Commander, then he was able to trace me, then he found me at the barracks.

He explained to me that he has a problem that he lent, he borrowed Ngo his car, that is coming to Pretoria, then he was supposed to return the car on a particular day and the car was returned.

He requested me that I should talk to Ngo, so that Ngo should return his car. On that day Ngo was not present with Venter's car. Then I said to him that when he returned with Venter's car, I would return the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you say he returned the car or he did not return the car he had borrowed?

CAPT KOJA: I don't know as whether he returned the car, but when he returned ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, when Mr Venter came to see you, did he say that Ngo had borrowed his car and hadn't returned it? I am just verifying what he already said. Was that what he said?

MR BRITZ: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is so.

MR BRITZ: Did you have any other discussions?

CAPT KOJA: Venter returned home without the car, because Ngo was not present on that day.

MR BRITZ: Right, now Captain did you see Mr Venter ever after that specific day?

CAPT KOJA: I haven't seen him since he left Pretoria.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, did anybody come and speak to you about Mr Ngo's arrest?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, there were members of the CID in Free State.

MR BRITZ: Did they come and see you personally?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, they came at the barracks in Pretoria.

MR BRITZ: Right, now, Captain, did you personally see Mr Ngo driving around with the Cressida?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I saw him driving that Cressida car.

MR BRITZ: And did you speak to him about the car after Mr Venter's visit?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I spoke to him.

MR BRITZ: And what did he say?

CAPT KOJA: I informed him that Mr Venter is looking for his car, then he told me that he would return the car.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, can we go to the document. Mr Chairman, I don't ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, how long was this before the police came to see you about Venter's death?

CAPT KOJA: I think it is months. It is months.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, I am not sure where the numbering of the Exhibits are. I know Mr Visser has his own system Mr Chairman, but Mr Chairman, can I suggest that we make this Bundle a Bundle X, I don't think that you've gone as far as that.

CHAIRPERSON: We've had a great many with a P as a prefix, perhaps X would be safe.

MR BRITZ: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. If we can mark it then X. Captain could you look at the Bundle of documents there on your left, or have you got it in front of you? The Bundle that says Ngo - Amnesty Application. Have you got that Bundle?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I have it with me.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, Captain, I don't want to refer you to each and every page thereof, but can we start on page 1. Can you explain to the Committee a copy of what document is this?

CAPT KOJA: On page 1 is an official pocket book of the SAPS, which is carried by members who are below the Commissioner's officers that is from Constables and up to Inspectors. Those are the people who are compelled to carry this document while on duty.

MR BRITZ: All right, whose handwriting is this?

CAPT KOJA: That is Constable Ngo's handwriting.

MR BRITZ: And we don't have to go into each and every detail. Let's take on page 11 the first entry there, it says report for service, posted barracks duty.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the photostat page 11, page 1 of the Bundle?

MR BRITZ: Yes, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, thank you. Page 1 of the Bundle, it is page 11 on the photocopy. It is the first page Captain Koja. Have you got that? The first page on the top right hand corner.

CAPT KOJA: I see that on page 11. You say is it page 11 which you are talking about?

MR BRITZ: Mr Koja, close the Bundle. Please close the Bundle. Then you turn over to the first page. Now the page numbers I am going to refer to are on the top right hand corner. All right.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Now, if you have that page, let's look at that page. You will see there are two columns. Now let's look at the right hand column, it says Tuesday, 18 August 1987. Do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: I see that.

MR BRITZ: And it says report for duty, posted for barracks duty by Inspector and then it is not clear. Is that your signature there or whose signature is that?

CAPT KOJA: That is not my signature. It might be somebody who was working with me because they sent quite a number of people who came from Unit 19, but it is not my signature. It is one of those people who was working with us from Unit 19.

MR BRITZ: All right, what does that inscription mean? Do you know what it means?

CAPT KOJA: The writing which is there, it shows that at that particular time, he was an official placed on duty, then he was inspected by this policemen who was working at the barracks, the one who signed under me.

MR BRITZ: All right, and then next one is reporting from duty - no injury sustained. Do you see that? Does that mean that he went off duty?

CAPT KOJA: That is so.

MR BRITZ: Now Captain, we find these entries in the pocket books almost daily, just about ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: And on that page he reported for duty at 07h15 in the morning and he went off duty at 16h00?

CAPT KOJA: That is true sir.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman. We find those entries in the pocket book almost every day. Isn't that so?

CAPT KOJA: That is correct.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, can we turn to on the top right hand corner, you must look at the numbers, page 17 please. Have you got that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I got that.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain you will see there on the left hand column, the second part says Wednesday, 20 July 1988. Do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: And it says 07h15, report on duty at single quarters, inspected by Captain or it was Warrant Officer Koja. Do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that your signature there?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is my signature.

MR BRITZ: And then the next one looks 7 and I can't see the time there, it says leave the single and it should probably be quarters to SA Police 19 to meet Lieutenant Haggard in connection with my special leave. Do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Can you remember anything about that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I remember because when he left there at Unit 19, that is where his administration for leave and other things were done even though he was working at the barracks, I remember when he went to Haggard to meet him.

MR BRITZ: Did he go to Rosslyn where Unit 19 was, frequently?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And then if you look at the second column, on the right hand side, Wednesday, 20 July 1988, round about four o'clock it says for two days report of duty at single quarters, inspected by Warrant Officer Koja, do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: I don't see it at page 17.

MR BRITZ: Yes, it is on the right hand side, on the right hand side it says four o'clock. Top right hand side.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that your signature too?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is my signature.

MR BRITZ: Right, and then if we turn over to page 18, you will see Mr Chairman, and that is the last entry in the last pocket book that we could find. You will see there an entry on 22 July 1988. Do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that also in Mr Ngo's handwriting?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is Ngo's handwriting.

MR BRITZ: Right, now Captain if we can turn over to page 19, it is an extract of a record book of the people who were resident at the barracks, is that right?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And the third last entry is M.N. Ngo and the date is 5 February 1987. The third last entry.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And would it be safe to accept that that would in all probability have been the date on which Mr Ngo started staying at the barracks?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is the date, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain if we turn over to the next page, page 20 from page 20 to the last page, we have extracts of the occurrence book of the barracks and these are only extracts.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see those extracts.

MR BRITZ: You have gone as far as was possible through the occurrence book. How frequently did you see Mr Ngo's name mentioned in the occurrence book?

CAPT KOJA: When I look here, it appears on CR number 74, 75 he is there.

MR BRITZ: Yes, Captain you don't have to look at this page. Before we start on this page, I am asking you generally in the whole book, is Mr Ngo's name referred to every day or every week or every month or is it referred to every day?

CAPT KOJA: It appears daily during the week.

MR BRITZ: And if we look at page 20, the first entry there, at nine o'clock, number 74, it says visit single quarters, visit by Warrant Officer and Constable Ngo, quarters in order. Do you see that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that the general tenner of the entries referring to Mr Ngo in the occurrence book?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, it was supposed to happen because I used to go with him for inspecting the rooms or the cottages of the barracks.

MR BRITZ: All right, now Captain Koja were there some times when you did the inspection without Mr Ngo being present?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And can we turn over to page 21, number 83? Whose handwriting is that?

CAPT KOJA: That is my handwriting sir.

MR BRITZ: All right, and it says Warrant Officer Koja reports that he visited Constable M.N. Ngo's room who is supposed to report for duty at the single quarters as Assistance Caretaker. The above member couldn't be found at his room, according to information he has gone to Pretoria Magistrates court to give evidence.

Now, Captain ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Is that under 14th of August 1987 ... (indistinct)

MR BRITZ: Yes, it is the 17th, Mr Chairman, but I think some of the Bundles might have been numbered wrong. I see my Attorney shows me that page 21 and 22 might have been numbered wrongly in the Bundle, but the date is 17 August 1987.

ADV DE JAGER: 22 is dated the 17th, and 21 is dated the 14th?

MR BRITZ: Yes, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: The one is a Friday and the one on Monday.

MR BRITZ: Yes, I am referring to the Monday, 17 August 1987. Mr Chairman, it seems that some of the pages may have just been in the wrong sequence.

CHAIRPERSON: They seems to have been badly misnumbered. Page 20, my page 20 is the 14th of August 1987. My colleague's page 20 is the 2nd of March, 1988.

MR BRITZ: Yes, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. I have to confess that the numbering that you see on the top right hand side is my numbering Mr Chairman. I beg your pardon. This must have slipped in. We had difficulty in getting all the pages ready yesterday under some pressure and it seems some mistake has come in in respect of that.

Maybe it will be safer to refer to the specific date on top of the page, because each of these pages has a date on top. I will endeavour to correct the pages of everybody concerned. If I can refer then to 17 August 1987. Mr De Jager, I believe that will be your page 22.

I am referring to number 83 there and the only question I want to ask in respect ... (intervention)

CAPT KOJA: I see number 83.

MR BRITZ: Yes, now the only question I want to ask about that Captain, was Mr Ngo's position referred to as Assistance Caretaker?

CAPT KOJA: That is correct.

MR BRITZ: All right, could you please turn to page 25, dated 15 July 1988 and I want to refer to entry number 82 at twelve o'clock.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, give us time in order to find it because it is on page 25 in my Bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: He said 25.

MR BRITZ: Yes, I believe the Bundle is correct from approximately page 23 Mr Chairman, I think. Mr De Jager, my Attorney has the same bundle as yours, that is why we know exactly where the mistake is. I am referring to number 82, 15 July 1988, page 25.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that your handwriting?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is my handwriting.

MR BRITZ: And it says inspection single quarters, inspected by Warrant Officer Koja and Constable Ngo. The following were checked and found in order, the kitchen, dining hall, bedrooms, toilets and the surrounding and then it stops there. And then is that your signature?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is my signature.

MR BRITZ: Now Captain, is this a normal entry in the occurrence book which was made every day?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: Now Captain, on page 26, the next page, number 102, the date is 20 July 1988.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Mr De Jager, the numbered page 102 will appear on your page 27. Now is that also your handwriting?

CAPT KOJA: That is correct, it is my handwriting.

MR BRITZ: And we see there Constable M.N. Ngo leaves the quarters to Unit 19, Rosslyn to see Lieutenant Haggard in connection with his absence from duty for the period 18 July 1988 to 19 July 1988. Now, what I want to ask you Captain was Mr Ngo away from duty sometimes that you had to speak to him about that?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, he was off duty without knowing the reasons. If he was off duty, I would refer him to Unit 19 to make arrangements so that they would finalise that at that Unit 19.

MR BRITZ: All right. And when such an occurrence happened, did you refer him back to his Commander at Unit 19 to deal with the issue?

CAPT KOJA: That is so sir.

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, the page, the last page - 20 July 1988 with numbers 108 to 112, and especially number 109, was the last entry in the occurrence book that we could find referring to Mr Ngo.

I have to stress however, that we did go through it at quite some speed, but under these circumstances that was the last entry. We will go through it again during the time, until January and if anything, if we pick up anything else, we will bring that under your attention, but for purposes of today and the time we had available to us, this is the last entry of Mr Ngo.

CAPT KOJA: Yes, that is the last entry.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, yes, do you know what happened to Mr Ngo?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I know exactly because I was working together with him. I was his Commander, he was arrested. After being arrested there were Investigating Officers from Bloemfontein at our police station. At the barracks at Mamelodi requesting for duty statement of his Commander and I gave them that statement.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain do you know anything of a motor vehicle accident that Mr Ngo was involved in?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I still remember that he was injured.

MR BRITZ: Can you at all remember when that was or can't you?

CAPT KOJA: I can't remember exactly, but it was during the time when he was under my command at Mamelodi.

MR BRITZ: Right, and now Captain, Mr Ngo was arrested as far as my information goes, at the beginning of 1989, the 9th of February 1989. Thank you Mr Visser.

9th of February 1989, do you know the reason why there are no entries in the occurrence book from 20 July 1988 until his arrest referring to Mr Ngo?

CAPT KOJA: I won't be able to explain explicitly, because these are the old documents. They have been there for about the period of seven years. We have shifted a lot, there may be other documents whereby we can be able to investigate everything. I can't understand exactly.

I don't remember why we stopped doing these entries until he was arrested. I am not able to explain why.

MR BRITZ: Captain, if we look at the occurrence book, you will see that the entries about visiting the barracks and inspecting the barracks, thereafter, after 20 July 1988, refers to yourself and I think Ramala. Is that right?

CAPT KOJA: That is so sir.

MR BRITZ: And is it correct that Constable Ramala was transferred with Mr Ngo to assist you at the barracks?

CAPT KOJA: That is so sir.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRITZ: .

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: If I may Mr Chairman, Visser on record, I've only got one question. Captain, could you possibly from your own recollection remember how long Mr Ngo had possession of this Cressida motor car in Mamelodi? If you can't remember, just say so.

CAPT KOJA: I am not able to remember how long.

MR VISSER: Would you recollection be that it was a matter of days or a matter of weeks or can't you tell that either?

CAPT KOJA: It is more than three weeks.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER: .

MR STANDER: I've got no questions to the witness, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER: .

MR BRINK: No, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: .

ADV DE JAGER: So you don't know whether he was involved in an accident with this car?

CAPT KOJA: I know that he did have an accident, I don't know as whether it was with this car or with another car, I am not sure.

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I was given these documents during the tea adjournment. I have asked to see the original and it has not been given to me. I have looked at the entries that have been made, copies of which had been made and I need to take instructions on them.

As I would also need to inspect the original of the documents that had been handed in.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the originals available Counsel?

MR BRITZ: Yes, Mr Chairman, I might place on record that I was requested for the originals when we started with the hearing after the tea adjournment, they are here Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you need, Mr Memani?

CAPT KOJA: The originals are here with me, I have them.

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think I will need some more considerable time to deal with these things because it involves going through the book and going through the entries with Mr Ngo, asking him to explain them.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by considerable time, an hour, a day, a month?

MR MEMANI: I would certainly not give myself less than an hour to take these things.

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, I may just place on record, we spent some considerable time on those documents and we haven't even gone through them properly in the way we would have wanted.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what I was going to suggest is we take the adjournment at this stage until two o'clock, which gives Mr Memani quite a lot of time to have a look and he can then inform us what his position is.

MR MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until two o'clock to enable Mr Memani to have a look at the documents that we have been referring to.

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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, I understand from what you told me that having had an opportunity of looking at the books, you are satisfied you will not be able to deal with them and this witness today.

MR MEMANI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say that having had an opportunity of looking at them myself, I agree with, I can see your difficulties.

I have had an opportunity of discussing this with the representatives of the other parties and I understand these gentlemen all (indistinct). However, there are certain formalities that I would like to deal with before we adjourn and the first of these is to ask Captain Koja, if he formally hands in the documents which had been referred to? That is three pocket books which belonged to Mr Ngo, the South African Police Mamelodi Single Quarter Register and the occurrence book, which is marked 4/87 on the cover.

You do confirm that those are the documents they hold themselves out to be and do you hand them in?

CAPT KOJA: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, and Mr Memani, I understand you are in a position to make formal admissions that the pocket books are Mr Ngo's pocket books and that the handwriting in them, is his handwriting?

MR MEMANI: Admissions are so made, My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, and furthermore that the occurrence book is the occurrence book of the Mamelodi barracks?

MR MEMANI: That is correct, My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I propose to have copies made of certain of these documents, which will be available for circulation. They will go to Mr Memani first, for him to work on and then they will be available to others.

I do not think it necessary to have copies made for each and every one of the parties, but there will be copies available. I will make sure that the TRC keeps in touch with the representatives in that regard.

And that being so, we have come to the end of this hearing.

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, there is just one aspect. We would like to obviously have the opportunity to work through the documents in detail as well. May I just request that we record that if there is anything that we want to add in respect of Captain Koja's evidence, that we may recall him before cross-examination starts.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, certainly, we have not started cross-examination yet, you will be given an opportunity to put in further anything else that you would wish to.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And this brings us to an end of this hearing. I think it has become abundantly obvious to the parties that there is no hope of finishing it within two days, which is the maximum we might have next week, but whether we could even enjoy that time, is a little uncertain. I gather certain of the legal representatives thought that they were appearing elsewhere, whether they are or not, is a little uncertain, but in any event, there is no point in coming back here for a two day hearing, we then have to adjourn and I propose now to adjourn this hearing to the same venue on Monday, the 19th of January 1998.

I gather that that date is suitable to the parties and it is our intention that we will then proceed with that hearing until it has been concluded.

And I trust the parties will all make themselves available. Is there anything further anybody wishes to say?

ME MEMANI: Merry Christmas Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, the same to all of you.

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