CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goso?
MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the indulgence of the Committee. I now present my witness and he is ready to be sworn in.
WILFRED SITYODAMA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MS GOSO: Mr Sityodama, how far have you gone in school?
MR SITYODAMA: I went up to standard three in the real education.
MS GOSO: Can you please tell the members of the Committee, where do you stay?
MR SITYODAMA: I reside at Crossroads, at number 2704, that is my house number. Old Crossroads.
MS GOSO: For how long have you stayed there?
MR SITYODAMA: I arrived there in 1975, when the place was established.
MS GOSO: Are you a member of the PAC?
MR SITYODAMA: I am a member of PAC.
MS GOSO: Do you hold any position there?
MR SITYODAMA: I used to be a Branch Chairman, Chairperson. After that I became an Organiser and right now I am in the Region of PAC.
MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, the Interpreter missed ...
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I didn't hear that, he said he used to be Branch Chairman, then he was an Organiser and then he went on to say something else. What was that?
MR SITYODAMA: I am in the Region of PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: What Region?
MR SITYODAMA: I am in the Western Cape Region.
CHAIRPERSON: And what position do you hold, if any?
MR SITYODAMA: I am just an additional member.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you stop being Branch Chairman?
MR SITYODAMA: That was the year before last.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed.
MS GOSO: Do you know the applicant?
MR SITYODAMA: I know him as a member of PAC who is in my Branch.
MS GOSO: When did he become a member?
MR SITYODAMA: He started in 1991, it was in June.
MS GOSO: Can you please tell ...
CHAIRPERSON: How many people became members in June 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: Many people, there are more than 500.
CHAIRPERSON: In June 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And how many in July 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: If I had books in front of me, I would be able to answer that question, if I had the data base with me. I won't be able to estimate.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that he became a member in June 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: We do have a data base, we record each time a person is joining. We write that in our roll book.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that he became a member in 1991? Who told you that?
MR SITYODAMA: I looked at the data base, where there is an entry of each and every member's date of joining the Organisation. There is even a card there that has got all the information.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MS GOSO: During the time you were in office as the Branch Chairperson, as you were in office as Branch Chairperson, do you know whether there was any conflict in the area?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, there was a conflict.
MS GOSO: Can you please very shortly and briefly, inform the Members of the Committee about that conflict?
MR SITYODAMA: The conflict in the area, it started as if it was a domestic problem, but we realised that it was actually targeting the members of the PAC and they were hitting their houses also. Hitting the houses of the PAC members.
MS GOSO: Yes, can you please continue.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Goso, can I ask him, I think he was too fast for the Interpreter to pick up everything. Can he repeat what he has just said, how this conflict started?
MR SITYODAMA: This conflict started as a community problem, but after some time, it changed, the whole thing changed now because the members of PAC were being attacked.
ADV SANDI: Attacked by who?
MR SITYODAMA: We won't know because we used to say there were gangsters, because we couldn't see those people. The only thing that was happening, our people were being attacked. We couldn't see the people who were attacking them.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Goso, without interrupting you, can you recall who was attacked?
MR SITYODAMA: The people who were attacked there, the first person Elsie Mkumbusi's house was attacked and Mr Nyangweni's house was attacked. Mr Makoeto's house was also attacked. A gentleman from Siko family who was shot in the eye, he was from number 1749.
MS GOSO: And it is quite correct to assume that the members of the organisation were quite concerned about these attacks?
MR SITYODAMA: From the very first day when these houses were attacked, I woke up in the morning, I phoned the Region. I wanted to call the people there, I wanted them to come and see the damage.
The person from the Region came and I told Mr Deo also that our members were being attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: Give me the name of this person, who was it that you talked to?
MR SITYODAMA: It was Deo Mabusela who was the Chairman of the Region at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he come and see the damage that was done?
MR SITYODAMA: The Organiser Michael Siolo came to check the damage on the very same day.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry about that, I am not very familiar, give me the name again please.
MR SITYODAMA: Michael Siolo.
CHAIRPERSON: What was he, what was his position?
MR SITYODAMA: He was the Organiser in the Region.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he came to see the damage?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: What about Mr Mabusela, did he come?
MR SITYODAMA: He came later.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR SITYODAMA: When that happened, we submitted a report. The Regional Chairman said he will try and look for people who will be able to handle that problem of our members who were being attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR SITYODAMA: He said he was going to meet with the High Commander of the Security, TF.
MS GOSO: Mr Sityodama, can you please explain to the Members of the Committee what you mean by TF, what does that acronym stand for?
MR SITYODAMA: That is a Task Force.
DR TSOTSI: Did you report to the Police at all?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes.
DR TSOTSI: And what was the result?
MR SITYODAMA: The Police came and inspected the damage.
ADV SANDI: Which Police station was this?
MR SITYODAMA: Nyanga Police station.
ADV SANDI: Do you know the Police Officer who was investigating the matter?
MR SITYODAMA: The Police that I knew there, was Carolus who was in the lower, he knows that.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell us when was this. When was this matter reported to this Policeman?
MR SITYODAMA: We reported the incident on the very same day, it was on a Sunday. We were attacked on a Saturday evening, we woke up and reported the case the following day, that was on a Sunday morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I want to know what month are we talking about, and what year.
MR SITYODAMA: I can't remember the month.
CHAIRPERSON: And you can't remember the year?
MR SITYODAMA: If I am not mistaken, it was in 1991 because I became a Chairman in 1991.
MS GOSO: When did this incident that you are referring to, take place? Can you remember?
CHAIRPERSON: Which incident are you talking about now Ms Goso?
MS GOSO: When this attack took place, that you have referred to?
CHAIRPERSON: The one that was reported to the Police?
MS GOSO: The one that was reported to the Police, can you remember when it took place?
MR SITYODAMA: I cannot remember the month, I cannot remember the month when this took place, but I think the Policeman who was handling the case, has got the date.
CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.
MS GOSO: How long after the incident had taken place, did you report it to the Police?
MR SITYODAMA: This took place on a Saturday evening. We reported it the following day in the morning, it took place Saturday evening, and the following day, that was on a Sunday, we went to the Police station.
MS GOSO: Do you remember or can you, are you able to explain whether the Regional structure after you had reported to them, took any steps about this matter?
DR TSOTSI: Just before that, I think we took him off the trend. He told us that they reported the matter to the TF, can he go along and tell us what happened as a result of that report?
CHAIRPERSON: I think that is the question, isn't it Ms Goso?
MS GOSO: If I can put it to him like that Mr Chairman. Before we took you off the track and asked you about reporting to the Police, you were informing us that the members of the Regional structure to whom you had reported, undertook to report this to the Task Force. Can you then continue to tell us what happened from there?
MR SITYODAMA: They said it is okay, he was going to refer the letter to the Task Force. We were never involved thereafter.
ADV SANDI: What was the Task Force going to do about this matter, according to Mr Mabusela?
CHAIRPERSON: He said he would just refer it to the Task Force.
ADV SANDI: To refer it to the Task Force so that the Task Force can do what about the matter?
MR SITYODAMA: It is the Regional structure who knew what was going to happen, because all we knew was that the Task Force was there to protect the people.
MS GOSO: I am not so sure Mr Chairman, if the Members of the Committee heard the last reply. Perhaps the, if they haven't, perhaps the Interpreter can repeat it for the benefit of the Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please repeat that.
MR SITYODAMA: After reporting the matter to the Regional structure, the Regional structure said they were going to refer the matter to the Task Force. They never came back to us to tell us what happened to the letter, we don't know anything.
DR TSOTSI: You said that the Task Force was there to protect the people, is that right?
MR SITYODAMA: I am saying the Task Force was protecting the people, so we did not have any idea of what was going to happen. It is only the Regional structure who knew what was happening.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MS GOSO: Did you at any later stage, come to hear what happened then?
MR SITYODAMA: I never heard anything concerning the party, but there were no accidents. There were no attacks, it was quiet.
CHAIRPERSON: When he said there were no accidents, he probably meant there were no incidents? Is that right?
MR SITYODAMA: At that time, but after some time, there were some incidents, but just after that incident, it became quiet.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MS GOSO: Do you know a man by the name of Depoutch Elese?
MR SITYODAMA: We know him. I know him.
MS GOSO: Do you know about an attack that took place in his house?
MR SITYODAMA: I heard that.
MS GOSO: Do you know who attacked the house and why?
CHAIRPERSON: When was this attack, do you know when the house was attacked in the first place?
MR SITYODAMA: I don't know when was the house attacked. I don't even know the people who attacked the house.
CHAIRPERSON: What year?
MR SITYODAMA: I am just forgetting, I can't remember the year. I am so forgetful.
CHAIRPERSON: All right, I understand that. You say that you don't know who attacked the house?
MR SITYODAMA: I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MS GOSO: Do you think there is any possible link between the attack in Depoutch's house?
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should put that question, when he doesn't even know when it happened.
ADV SANDI: He does not even know for that matter, who carried out the attack. How is he going to drive the link?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think you should put a question like that.
MS GOSO: The question is withdrawn Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS GOSO: That is the end of the examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Fortuin, have you any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN: Yes Mr Chairperson. Can you tell the Commission when you became a member of the PAC?
MR SITYODAMA: I started in 1960 when I was in the Gauteng Region, in the Gauteng Province.
MR FORTUIN: You then arrived in 1975 and I assume that you were always then a member of the PAC, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, that is correct.
MR FORTUIN: In 1991, what position did you hold in the PAC?
MR SITYODAMA: I was a Branch Chairman at Crossroads.
MR FORTUIN: Excuse me, you initially indicated that you first became an Organiser of the PAC and then only you became a member of the, then you became Chairperson of the PAC?
CHAIRPERSON: No, my notes say that he used to be Branch Chairperson, in 1997 he became Organiser.
MR FORTUIN: That is correct. Mr Chairperson, he indicated that in 1996, round about 1996 he became Chairperson of the Branch of the PAC. He said the year before last, I became Chairperson of the PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: Out it to him.
MR FORTUIN: Sir, in your evidence you said ...
CHAIRPERSON: Ask him when, because there seems to be some doubt as to whether he said it was in 1996.
MR FORTUIN: When did you become Chairperson of the PAC Branch?
MR SITYODAMA: I started in 1991, I became the Chairperson of the PAC. The year before last, I became an Organiser of the Branch.
MR FORTUIN: Excuse me sir, so I assume that since 1991 you were Chairperson of the PAC Branch of Crossroads and the surrounding areas, is that correct and then thereafter you became Organiser of the PAC, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: You shake your head, what is the answer?
MR SITYODAMA: I agree, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: That you were Chairperson from 1991 to 1996?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes.
MR FORTUIN: Sir, do you perhaps know Vuyisile Mketsu?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, I know Vuyisile Mketsu. He was a Treasurer of PAC.
MR FORTUIN: And he was never a Chairperson as far as you know, from 1991 to 1996? He was never Chairperson of the PAC, of that Branch?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, he became a Chairperson when we were renewing the Committee, he became a Chairperson after being a Treasurer, when they were renewing the Committee.
MR FORTUIN: And do you know what year he became Chairperson of the PAC, of that Branch?
MR SITYODAMA: Vuyisile Mketsu became the Chairman in 1996 because when he left the PAC, he was still a Chairman.
MR FORTUIN: I see. So, it is not completely correct then that you were Chairperson of the PAC Branch from 1991 up to 1996? There was a period that Mr Mketsu was also Chairperson of the PAC Branch, is that correct and you say from 1994?
CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness, it could have happened during the year, isn't it? It could have happened during the year in 1996, both Mketsu, he became Chairman, he ceased being a Chairman in 1996.
MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, if I understand his evidence correct, he became Chairperson of the PAC in 1991 up to 1996.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FORTUIN: So for two years he also indicates that Mr Mketsu was Chairperson from 1994 to 1996. So there were two Chairpersons in the Branch then for that two years, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that Mketsu was Chairperson from 1994?
MR FORTUIN: I can pose the same question to him again sir, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: All I heard is that he said he became a Chairperson in 1996. Just clear that up please.
MR SITYODAMA: Firstly, in the PAC organisation, the Executive Committee sits for only 12 months and after that, it is renewed.
CHAIRPERSON: The question is when did Mr Mketsu become Chairperson of the Branch?
MR SITYODAMA: He started in 1996. He used to be a Treasurer, he used to be elected as Treasurer.
CHAIRPERSON: That is cleared up.
MR FORTUIN: That is correct Mr Chairperson. You say that you became a member of the PAC Region as well and now you were an additional member of the PAC Region, is that correct, the Western Cape?
MR SITYODAMA: In the Region, that is correct.
MR FORTUIN: Sir, it is also very clear that you know exactly when the applicant, Mr Maduna became a member of the PAC because you clearly state it was 1991, June and you also say you know this because you had a look at the data of the Organisation, is that correct? The data base?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, that is correct. Each and every year you've got to take a look at the data base.
MR FORTUIN: I see. When were you asked to do a search as to whether Mr Maduna was a member of the PAC or not?
MR SITYODAMA: I was not requested, I was doing that because it was the end of the year, we wanted to check the members of the Organisation.
MR FORTUIN: And do you know how many members joined the Organisation in 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: I responded to that question that I cannot estimate, not unless I have a data base in front of me.
MR FORTUIN: Is it possible that you would be able to bring the data base to the Commission, if you are asked?
MR SITYODAMA: If that was required, I could have brought it here.
MR FORTUIN: When you were asked to come and testify today, was it explained to you that the reason why you must come and testify today was to the membership of Mr Maduna, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: I was requested this morning at work, I didn't even know that I was to come here. I am from work now. They requested me from my work to come here as a person who was the then Chairperson of the Branch.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know when you went through the data base, when was that, the end of last year you say?
MR SITYODAMA: Firstly, PAC's year ends in March. Each and every April is the beginning of our new year, that is why we have to check on membership.
MR FORTUIN: And you are quite sure, when you looked in March of this year, you saw that Mr Maduna became a member in June 1991, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, we look at all members. Those who have renewed and those who have not. Starting from 1991 when we started that Branch up to now, to check whether all our members are still renewing their membership and those who have failed to do so.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the real question is that you last checked this in April this year, is that when you checked whether Mr Maduna was a member?
MR SITYODAMA: I checked all the members who have renewed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I am just saying that you checked this in April, that is the question?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, in April.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know where the data base or the records of your members of the Branch here in Cape Town, is kept?
MR SITYODAMA: Our data base when we have done and finished, we send it to our Regional Office who sends it to the National Office.
We only are left with our roll book. The data base when finished, is sent to the Regional Office.
MR FORTUIN: And you are quite sure that the application forms and details and the information regarding Mr Maduna was sent to the National Office. Where is your National Office?
MR SITYODAMA: The PAC National Office is in Johannesburg.
MR FORTUIN: I see. Now could you explain why - or let me rather rephrase the question, and you are sure all the details of the membership of Mr Maduna was recorded in the Cape Town Region and from the Cape Town Region all the details were sent to the National Office, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: It is the same with all members of the PAC.
MR FORTUIN: Now, excuse me sir, can you explain a letter that was handed in on Tuesday, it comes from your Organisation, it is signed by Mr Louis Ngwenya and it says and maybe if my colleague can just, if she still has a copy of the letter of the PAC, just ...
CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to Exhibit A?
MR FORTUIN: That is correct, and it reads the Eastern Cape Provincial Executive Council has managed to retrieve from its files records confirming his party membership and as such assured me that he was a fully complacent member of the party.
Can you explain how it ends up that his membership and his details is in the Eastern Cape?
MR SITYODAMA: Firstly, as Mr Maduna is a member of the Task Force, any member of the Task Force in terms of the Organisation, joins and does not have a Branch.
MR FORTUIN: You see sir, you have testified he became a member in 1991 in the Western Cape and I specifically asked you where is the details, where is his records, where is his membership and you said it is in the Western Cape and from here, it goes to the National Office, I assume in Johannesburg. Why would the Eastern Cape now suddenly come up with his party membership?
We are not talking about the Task Force here, we are talking about his party membership.
MR SITYODAMA: Mr Maduna joined here in the Western Cape at the Crossroads Branch and he was a member there.
But in terms of his duties under the Task Force, he has no Branch. He attaches to any Branch.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that we are talking about his position as a Task Force, you see, you might not be able to explain this letter, because you didn't write it.
We have a letter written by somebody called Mr Ngwenya, you see, and that letter says that the Eastern Cape Provincial Executive Council has managed to retrieve from their file, records confirming his party membership and has assured me that he was fully complacent member of the party.
You are being asked whether you can explain how it is that they say that he was a member of the Eastern Cape? If you don't know the answer, then you just say I don't know.
MR SITYODAMA: I do not know the answer to this question because I too know him as having joined at the Crossroads Branch.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
DR TSOTSI: Do new members of the PAC, are they issued with cards, membership cards?
MR SITYODAMA: As a new member, he gets a new card. If he renews, he renews on that same card.
ADV SANDI: Do those membership cards have numbers Mr Sityodama?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, they have numbers ending with 2002.
ADV SANDI: When you checked your records in April, were you able to see what is his membership card number?
MR SITYODAMA: No, I did not see the number of his membership card.
ADV SANDI: Just as a member of interest, are you able to say what your membership card number is?
CHAIRPERSON: His membership?
ADV SANDI: Your membership card number, are you able to recall that?
MR SITYODAMA: No, I cannot remember it off hand.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR FORTUIN: So if you checked in April and you saw that Mr Maduna became a member in June 1991, you say those records are available, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: Correct, we do have a data base.
MR FORTUIN: So, if Mr Maduna wanted to prove his membership to this Commission, it was the easiest thing to do to simply ask him family members to visit the Branch where the data is kept and get a copy of, or the original of that details which you have just spoken about, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: If the Committee thinks so.
MR FORTUIN: Excuse me, that is not my question. What I am asking you sir, is if it is so easily available that you were able to check in April and March and establish that Mr Maduna became a member in 1991, in June 1991, in fact to be specific, it means that that records are easily attainable, which means that Mr Maduna could have asked his Counsel or his family members or friends, to go to the PAC Branch and get a copy.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it is fair to ask the question of him. He doesn't take those decisions. What his Counsel does or what he decides should be done, is hardly a matter for him.
That is a matter for argument.
MR FORTUIN: I withdraw Mr Chairperson. Just maybe just to say that if somebody wants to get detail of his membership, if he is a member of the PAC, and he wants to confirm that he is a member of the PAC, is it very easy for that person to go to the Branch and get the detail of his membership or is it a difficult process?
MR SITYODAMA: It is easy if you want to ensure that it proves that you are a member, to get those details from the Branch Executive.
MR FORTUIN: Now coming to the conflict sir, you say the conflict started, the domestic problem which eventually became a problem that the PAC and its members were being attacked, started in 1991, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: Correct.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know of - was that the period as was commonly known in the Western Cape where the Witdoeke and the comrades were in conflict with one another, 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: The Witdoeke's period was in 1986, not 1991.
MR FORTUIN: You say that the conflict started in 1991, and then PAC members were attacked. Did these attacks take place from 1991 up till what year?
MR SITYODAMA: After the attacks stopped, the attacks resurfaced again in, now as they have now again been established, as we now have this problem of PAC members being attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: When was that, when did they resurface?
MR SITYODAMA: The present ones started as the community problems being referred to by residents to the Council, but now what is happening is that we currently have four members of the PAC who have been killed, as I am speaking.
CHAIRPERSON: My question was, you see, there were these attacks which took place in 1991, you say then there was a period of quiet and you said that they resurfaced. I want to know from you when did they resurface?
I am not talking about the day, I am talking about after 1991 they ceased, when did they commence again?
MR SITYODAMA: I think they started there around 1993, by the time Yster and Hlaheta were being shot at.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FORTUIN: So you say the attacks first took place in 1991 and it resurfaced in 1993, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: Correct.
MR FORTUIN: So you are quite sure it is now 1993 and you are not thinking any more, but you are quite certain it is 1993?
MR SITYODAMA: You see, the reason why I think it was in 1993, I am just calculating the time we had the lull from 1991 and the time when the killings started again. I think and become certain kind of, that it was 1993 the time that they resurfaced.
MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know when the Task Team was formed of the PAC?
CHAIRPERSON: The Task Force?
MR FORTUIN: The Task Force, sorry?
MR SITYODAMA: No, I would not be able to know anything about that, I am not connected to those.
MR FORTUIN: When did you report the incident, was it in 1991 when the Organiser said he would refer that to the Task Team, the Task Force, sorry? So the Task Force was established in 1991, is that correct? Or it was in existence in 1991, the Task Force?
MR SITYODAMA: I do not know when the Task Force was first established, but I know it is a long time that we had the Task Force around.
MR FORTUIN: I just want to confirm that the Task Force was in existence in 1991, is that correct? When you spoke to your Organiser, he said he was going to refer that to the Task Force, so in 1991 the Task Force was established already, is that correct?
MR SITYODAMA: It was yes, in existence.
MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know if anything happened with the report that you gave the Police about the attacks in 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: Like what?
MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether the people that were caught, or rather let me say do you know whether people were caught and arrested or prosecuted or do you know anything that happened of the incident that you reported to the Police, I assume in 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: I heard around about that, but I cannot tell myself. I do not know directly as to that did happen.
MR FORTUIN: May I ask you what did you hear?
MR SITYODAMA: That there were members who had been arrested.
MR FORTUIN: Did that members belong to a political organisation?
MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, if I may come in. I am not so sure if there is not a misunderstanding. If the question can be repeated to the witness to make sure that the reply that we get, relates to the same incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Just clear that up. Please listen to me. After the house was attacked, the matter was reported to the Police, you reported it to your Branch. The question is, did the Police do anything at all about it after it was reported?
MR SITYODAMA: On the side of the Police, nobody was ever arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned, nothing further happened?
MR SITYODAMA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR FORTUIN: Can you tell the Commission when in 1993 did these attacks start again?
MR SITYODAMA: I would not be able to remember the month.
MR FORTUIN: Excuse me sir, can we make it easier, was it in the beginning of the year, the middle of the year or the end of 1993? You don't have to mention the month.
MR SITYODAMA: I think in the middle of the year.
MR FORTUIN: Are you quite certain of that sir?
CHAIRPERSON: He just said he thinks. There is hardly anything about certainty. He doesn't know the month. You asked him whether it was the beginning or the middle. He thinks it was in the middle of the year, now how much further can you take that?
MR FORTUIN: Did you also in 1993 report the attacks to the Police?
MR SITYODAMA: We did so. We reported the matter to the Police.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know who was responsible for the attack on Mr Depoutch Elese's house or his uncle's house?
MR SITYODAMA: I do not know.
MR FORTUIN: Can you tell the Commission where Mr Maduna lived before he was arrested?
MR SITYODAMA: As far as I know him, he used to stay at Nyanga.
MR FORTUIN: And does Nyanga have a separate PAC Branch to the one of Crossroads?
MR SITYODAMA: Nyanga attaches to Crossroads because they do not have many members at Nyanga.
MR FORTUIN: You also testified that you could not identify the people that was responsible for the attacks on PAC members, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: You know it is not a question of identifying people, he does not know who attacked.
MR FORTUIN: Maybe I can just rephrase Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know or was the group who attacked PAC members, identified as a specific group? Do you know of any individuals that were identified that was involved in the attacks. Do you know whether it was ...
CHAIRPERSON: Too many questions. One question at a time. Just answer this. Do you know who attacked the PAC members?
MR SITYODAMA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the end of the matter.
MR FORTUIN: Lastly sir, when you - do the PAC support the application of Mr Maduna for amnesty and is there any statement as regards to the application of Mr Maduna that the PAC has produced regarding his application?
MR SITYODAMA: I would not know about the National Office because everything emanates from the National Office.
MR FORTUIN: Therefore sir, do you have a mandate to testify on behalf of the PAC as to regards to the membership of Mr Maduna if everything emanates from the National Office?
CHAIRPERSON: He was approached yesterday by the lawyer of Mr Maduna as a witness. He says he has come from work, here and I can't imagine any formal decisions being taken at an organisational level for him to come and give evidence.
Now, if you are saying that he has no authority to talk on behalf of the PAC, then you must put it on that basis, no formal authority. If that is what you are trying to say.
MR FORTUIN: I take your point Mr Chairperson. Maybe I should just rephrase that question.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether in the National Office or in the Regional Office ...
CHAIRPERSON: No, let's put it this way, were you authorised, have you been authorised by the PAC to come and give evidence today? Isn't that what you are trying to get?
MR SITYODAMA: Members of the PAC came, that is where I am going to go and give a report to when I leave here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So were you, the question is have you been authorised and asked by the PAC to come and give evidence? I think the lawyer wishes to know whether you are authorised by the PAC to come and give evidence, either yes or no.
MR SITYODAMA: No.
MR FORTUIN: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN: .
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions to ask?
MR MAPOMA: Yes, just a few Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
MR MAPOMA: When did you as the PAC Branch have the data base?
MR SITYODAMA: We started to establish our data base in 1992.
MR MAPOMA: And I take it that each and every Executive member of the Branch had access to the data base, is that so?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, all Executive members have a right to look at the data base.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: What work do you do?
MR SITYODAMA: At the Medical Centre at Elsies.
ADV SANDI: When you say in 1993 you reported, you say we reported the attacks to the Police. Who is we who did that?
MR SITYODAMA: It was myself and other members of the Executive of the Branch.
ADV SANDI: You reported at the same Police station as the one you reported in 1991?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, at Nyanga.
ADV SANDI: You mentioned some name of an Investigating Officer, was it the same Investigating Officer in 1993 who looked into these attacks?
MR SITYODAMA: We got a new Policeman to whom we then reported.
ADV SANDI: Do you recall his name?
MR SITYODAMA: No, I do not know the new one. I only know Mr Carolus.
ADV SANDI: You mentioned two names, I think you said it was Yster and Hlaheta who were shot. Where were they shot?
MR SITYODAMA: Yster and Hlaheta were shot inside Hlaheta's house.
ADV SANDI: What that at night, during the day? Are you able to say?
MR SITYODAMA: It could have been about seven o'clock, after I had left them. After they had gone inside the house, they were shot inside. It was not late, it was not too late, it was about eightish, seven or eight at night.
ADV SANDI: Was there any suspicion as to who could have shot them?
CHAIRPERSON: What is the use of that evidence if it is just a suspicion?
MR SITYODAMA: No, we had no suspicions as to who may have been responsible.
ADV SANDI: The people who were shot at the house of the Elese family, did you know them?
MR SITYODAMA: I know the mother whom I know for a long time. The others I do not know very well.
ADV SANDI: I take it that you will not be able to say whether those people had anything to do with the attacks on members of the PAC, would you?
MR SITYODAMA: I would not be able to.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goso, any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GOSO: Yes Mr Chairman, just two questions. Do you know whether members of the PAC would support this application?
MR SITYODAMA: I am certain that members of the PAC would support his application.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO: .
ADV SANDI: Why do you say that?
MR SITYODAMA: Because they know him as a member and would like him to be released and be amongst them.
ADV SANDI: Is that the only reason for which you think they would support his application for amnesty?
MR SITYODAMA: That is the only reason that I can think of.
DR TSOTSI: Apart from Mr Maduna, do you know any other members of the Task Force?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, there are other Task Force members, though we do not know their real names.
DR TSOTSI: Do you know Victor Sam? I think I am correct, that is the name isn't it?
MR SITYODAMA: I know him.
DR TSOTSI: Was he a member of the PAC or of the ANC, do you know?
MR SITYODAMA: PAC.
DR TSOTSI: PAC? Do you know a man called Tinage?
MR SITYODAMA: Yes, I do.
DR TSOTSI: Is he a member of the ANC or PAC?
MR SITYODAMA: He was a member of the PAC.
DR TSOTSI: Until when or what happened?
MR SITYODAMA: Tinage was later arrested in Transkei where he is currently serving his service. Victor Sam is still a member and has just recently renewed his membership, two months back.
DR TSOTSI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused from further attendance.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fortuin?
MR FORTUIN: We call Mr Vuyisile Mketsu to testify on behalf of the victims.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand. Will you just spell your full names please?
VUYISILE MKETSU: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN: Mr Mketsu, where do you live?
MR MKETSU: Crossroads, Unati area, number 1690.
MR FORTUIN: When did you join the PAC?
MR MKETSU: In 1990.
MR FORTUIN: Was there a Branch in 1990 in Crossroads?
MR MKETSU: No. I was the man who tried to gather people around the PAC.
MR FORTUIN: So is it correct then if I assume that you were one of the founder members of the Branch of Crossroads, is that correct?
MR MKETSU: Yes, I was the one who was a founder member of the Crossroads Branch.
MR FORTUIN: What was your position which you held in 1990 with the establishment of the PAC Branch?
MR MKETSU: I had no position. I simply gathered people for the PAC. I used cards or I was the one who was recruiting members into the PAC.
MR FORTUIN: When the Branch was established, the PAC Branch in Crossroads, and the Executive of the PAC Branch was elected, what position were you given or elected in?
MR MKETSU: A Branch was elected in 1991, but because I was in possession of money as the original person who recruited members, I was made the Treasurer.
MR FORTUIN: When people wanted to join the Organisation, would you be the person that they would first speak to and pay the membership fees and fill in the forms as Treasurer?
MR MKETSU: Yes, they came to me.
MR FORTUIN: And how long did you hold this position as Treasurer of the PAC?
MR MKETSU: I was Treasurer from 1991, 1992 and 1993.
MR FORTUIN: Could you tell the Court who was Chairperson in 1991, 1992 and 1993? Chairperson of the PAC Branch in Crossroads?
MR MKETSU: The Chairperson was Mr Sityodama and his vice was Mr Sdjale.
CHAIRPERSON: For my benefit please spell the names of the people that you have mentioned.
MR MKETSU: Sityda ...
MR FORTUIN: Was that the Chairperson of the Branch in 1991 and is that the same person that testified just before this?
INTERPRETER: Not both names were spelt.
MR MKETSU: Sityodama was the first Chairperson of the PAC and then Galine later.
MR FORTUIN: And the previous witness testified that he made sure of the fact that the applicant Mr Maduna, became a member in June 1991. Do you know the applicant, Mr Maduna?
MR MKETSU: You see, the name Mr Maduna is very new to me. I do not know who Maduna was as to how he looked even. I do not know Maduna.
MR FORTUIN: Are you quite sure that Mr Maduna was not a member of the PAC in 1991, 1992 or even in 1993 while you were Treasurer of the Branch?
MR MKETSU: No, I never heard the name Maduna. It is the first time that I get to know a person called Maduna.
MR FORTUIN: Mr Mketsu, the previous person also testified that the PAC has got a data base. Can you explain to the Commission how the collection, or what the data base is as you understand it and what happens to the data base or the numbers in terms of membership and monies and so on?
MR MKETSU: It is a roll call, kept by the Treasurer and the issuing of cards, and also the Secretary of the Branch who had the roll call. That is the list of new members.
This data base word is new to me, I don't know its meaning.
MR FORTUIN: If the data base was established in 1992, would you have known about it?
MR MKETSU: I am very unclear about the word data base, to me it is very new. I do not know what it means.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know when the Task Force of the PAC was established?
CHAIRPERSON: Where?
MR FORTUIN: When?
CHAIRPERSON: Where?
MR MKETSU: No, I do not know much about, I don't know anything about the Task Force.
MR FORTUIN: In the Western Cape I meant Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FORTUIN: The conflict of 1991, can you explain to the Commission what the conflict of 1991 in Crossroads was all about? What was the reason for the conflict?
MR MKETSU: It was houses that Mr Nongwe was attacking. He was the person who led people to attack houses to prevent people from going into those houses and using them as their own, that is occupying, as new occupiers of those houses, that was Mr Nongwe.
MR FORTUIN: Was that also the case in 1992, 1993 and onwards?
MR MKETSU: It was the same, or the similar problem.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether the PAC blamed gangsters for the attacks on the people in Crossroads?
MR MKETSU: I don't know anything about gangsters. What I knew was that everybody who occupied a house at that place, was being attacked, regardless so that they could be driven out. It was Mr Nongwe who did that.
MR FORTUIN: When an attack occurred in Unati, who did the people suspect as being the perpetrators of the deed?
MR MKETSU: The suspicions of the people was that the attack at Unati must have been planned and executed from Section 4, that was what people believed.
MR FORTUIN: The house of Mr Elese that was attacked in 1993, could we assume that the people also were under the impression that it was done by Mr Nongwe or the squatters in Crossroads?
MR MKETSU: People thought it was Mr Nongwe who initiated the attack or who instructed people to go and attack that house, and those who he led.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether a person by the name of Tinage is a member of the PAC?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, first of all does he know whether there is a person by that name?
MR FORTUIN: Excuse me Mr Chairperson. Do you know a person by the name of Tinage?
MR MKETSU: I only hear about the name Tinage, but I cannot point that person out. I only hear about a person called Tinage, but my knowing Tinage, I take it that he is a taxi driver, he is a person who drives taxi's, but I won't be able to point him out.
In the PAC, no, I never heard of a person like that.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether Mr Victor Sam was a member of the PAC?
MR MKETSU: I know it is so that he was a member of the PAC from 1974. I heard from them that he was a PAC member. We used to hold meetings with him, general meetings. He was not usually there, even when we went for elections, he was there.
MR FORTUIN: Can I just repeat. Did you say that Mr Victor Sam became a member in 1974 or 1994?
MR MKETSU: I am sorry in 1994.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether Mr Victor Sam is still a member of the PAC?
MR MKETSU: I know that he is no more a member of the PAC. I now know that he has joined the UDM, that is what I heard. I have never met him, but that is what I got to know.
MR FORTUIN: Do you know these attacks that took place in 1991 and 1993, if these attacks were ever reported to the Police?
MR MKETSU: What happened was that meetings, community meetings were held, Policemen were not involved. People would sit down as the community to discuss as to what must be done as a community, as to how they can defend themselves. That is all.
MR FORTUIN: Just lastly, Mr Mketsu, do you know if there was any talk or rumours of gangsters attacking the PAC in 1991, 1992, 1993 for that three years?
MR MKETSU: No, I never heard such rumours about gangsters, that gangsters were attacking PAC members. I never got to hear about such a thing.
I did not hear anything like that.
MR FORTUIN: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the PAC?
MR MKETSU: No. I left them in 1996.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goso?
DR TSOTSI: To what Organisation do you belong now?
MR MKETSU: I joined the ANC at the community, I am a Chairman of the Unit SANCO at Unati, SANCO Unit.
DR TSOTSI: When did you join the ANC?
MR MKETSU: Then, 1996. When I left the PAC, what happened that I left the PAC, I was at the rural areas at home, Emacoseni, I saw that I as the Deputy Chairperson of the PAC, I was elected as the vice and Goco was a Chairman and when we got the report, what made me to leave the PAC, it was RDP that was elected.
I was at the funeral, at my father's funeral at home and when I came back, I heard those news. I told them that I agree with the decision about development, that development in Crossroads should go on just like in other places.
That actually caused a misunderstanding between myself and the members, and what actually, the thing that made me to be unsatisfied is because Mr Nongwe is not the member of the PAC, but he was there. At the meeting I asked why was Mr Nongwe there, because he was not a member of PAC, then other members of the PAC disagreed with me.
Mr Nongwe ordered me to go out. I left. That is what made me to leave PAC as an Organisation. PAC was not for development.
CHAIRPERSON: All right, right now we are concerned with other issues. Can you proceed?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mketsu, you have proved yourself not to be, not to have been a loyal member of the PAC, haven't you?
CHAIRPERSON: He showed you the reason for his disagreement with the PAC, if that makes him disloyal, he has a difference of opinion.
MS GOSO: Can I rephrase Mr Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Please do.
MS GOSO: Mr Mketsu, you are the sort of member who when you do not agree with policy, would break away from the Organisation, aren't you?
ADV SANDI: Yes, but with due respect ...
MR MKETSU: I am not that type of a member, I sat down, I called three meetings, trying to discuss with the members of the PAC. Three times, discussing with the members of PAC because we would go to Site C and Langa and the PAC members in Langa and Site C and Harare, we used to visit them.
We would find them meeting, talking the same language, speaking the same language about dissatisfaction. I sat in about three meetings with the PAC members.
MS GOSO: And therefore Mr Mketsu, you are not happy with what the PAC did to you, isn't it?
MR MKETSU: I was not satisfied by what the PAC Branch did.
MS GOSO: Here you were, you had dedicated so much time of your life, and here they are, they do not allow you to go and join the RDP, and that made you feel disgruntled, isn't it?
MR MKETSU: Yes, that is correct. Certainly.
MS GOSO: And in fact, you went and you aired your disgruntlement on air, is that not so?
MR MKETSU: Where?
MS GOSO: You spoke on air about your unhappiness about the decision of the PAC not to allow you to go and sit at the RDP, isn't it, on radio?
MR MKETSU: Are you talking about myself, yes, I did that. But I started, I didn't go straight to the radio, I started discussing the matter with the PAC members.
MS GOSO: In fact, these people so much made you angry, they suspended you, didn't they?
MR MKETSU: They made me very angry, because what I didn't like was the conflicts in our society being one nation, black people. That made me very angry. Most especially Mr Nongwe burnt down my house during those conflicts.
That actually made me very angry, that is why I took a decision that I would never sit with Mr Nongwe in a meeting.
MS GOSO: Of course you have every right to be still angry with them. Isn't it?
MR MKETSU: I was forced because of the way I saw the whole situation, I looked at the whole situation because if we are discussing our own matters, there is no need to have another member from another Organisation. I asked the PAC members why was Mr Nongwe there, I never got any answer.
Instead Mr Nongwe responded and he actually ordered me to go out.
MS GOSO: These are all the things, a combination of all these factors that make you still feel quite angry with the Organisation, isn't it?
MR MKETSU: Yes, certainly. Yes, that is true.
MS GOSO: Can we pass on. Do you, what do you understand to be meant by a roll call?
MR MKETSU: The roll call is for people who are at a meeting, it records how many members attended, how many members in a Unit and it also counts how many people who have joined the Organisation from the receipt book. The receipt book and the roll call goes together.
MS GOSO: And a roll call is some kind of document, yes or no?
MR MKETSU: It is a book.
MS GOSO: And a book is a document, yes or no?
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should worry about that. Nobody can disagree with that. It is recorded in writing.
MS GOSO: I take the point Mr Chairman, I am passing on to another point.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS GOSO: Now that you have since left the Organisation, you have no knowledge who keeps their documents containing membership, do you?
MR MKETSU: I had knowledge, when I became the vice Chairman, I handed over some of the things to the Committee, to Mr Goco who became the Chairman.
MS GOSO: I will repeat what I am putting to you. Now that you are no longer within the Organisation, you have no knowledge who keeps this information containing names of members, isn't it?
MR MKETSU: I don't have any knowledge, I handed over to Goco. I gave him everything about the membership because he was a Chairman at the time.
I left everything with him. I was not handling anything because I became the vice Chairman.
MS GOSO: Mr Mketsu, when I consulted I was given names of houses of members of PAC that were attacked during the conflict and your name is amongst those people.
You were one of the people whose houses were attacked during that time, yes or no?
MR MKETSU: That is correct.
ADV SANDI: But he also said he believes his house was burnt by Mr Nongwe, Mr Nongwe attacked his house. That was part of his evidence of that aspect?
MS GOSO: I am building up towards canvassing that point Mr Member. There were other members of the PAC whose houses were attacked during that time, isn't it?
MR MKETSU: That is correct.
MS GOSO: This seems to have been an attack not just on your house alone, but on a number of PAC members by people and my instructions are, these people were not known who they were, that is what the last witness has said. Do you agree with that?
A number of members of the PAC, their houses were attacked by - there was a combined attack during more or less the same time?
MR MKETSU: I agree with the statement that says that the houses were being attacked, but the attack was not directed to PAC. I knew in my heart that the person behind these attacks, was Mr Jeffrey Nongwe and whatever was happening at the time, I knew very well that it was Mr Nongwe who was behind this whole thing of attacking the houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the houses of people other than PAC were also attacked?
MR MKETSU: I am certain that it was not only, the attack was not directed to PAC members only. Everyone at Unati area was attacked, everyone was being attacked, not only the PAC members.
MS GOSO: Can you give us names of other houses? I am sorry Mr Chairman, maybe the Interpreter is not finished yet.
INTERPRETER: Finished.
MS GOSO: Can you give us names of people that you know, whose houses were attacked during that time, who were not PAC?
MR MKETSU: I will talk about something that happened at that time. I didn't take it as if it is happening to me because I was a member of the PAC.
I was the first person to be attacked, it was late in the night. I can't recall the time, I phoned Mr Mageduka and I told him that my toilet window was hit. Mr Mageduka came to my house.
While he was still inspecting this window, Mrs Mkumbusi phoned and she told us that she was being attacked in her house, but I didn't take this as the attack that was directed to PAC members. I took this attack as if they were attacking the houses in general.
MS GOSO: My question was asking for just one thing, the names of other people, other than PAC members whose houses were attacked during that time.
CHAIRPERSON: There were a number of people whose houses - I understand a number of people's houses were attacked. Do you know the names of all the people, or do you just know that people's houses were attacked? Do you know the names of all the people whose houses were attacked?
MR MKETSU: All I knew was that the houses were being attacked. I don't know all the names of the people whose houses were being attacked.
All I knew was that there was a general attack on houses, on people's houses, not directed only to PAC members.
MS GOSO: The majority of the names that you have mentioned in your evidence today, happens to be PAC members, yes or no?
MR MKETSU: No. I don't look at it that way, because there were a lot of people's houses that were being attacked. I don't see it that way.
MS GOSO: I am just saying in your evidence in court here, not in court, during this hearing here today, you have mentioned names of people whose houses were attacked during that time, and in the names that you have mentioned, the majority of those names are PAC members?
MR MKETSU: It was myself and Mangwanya, but I didn't see it as the attack that was directed at PAC people, because they were just hitting the houses randomly.
The reason for me to mention Mkumbisi's name, it is because she phoned me and she said she was also being attacked, just after my house was attacked. I knew very well that she was a member of the PAC but I knew that she was not being attacked because she was a member of the PAC.
She was being attacked because she happened to be in the house.
MS GOSO: Do you know Ms Nyangweni?
MR MKETSU: I know Ms Nyangweni, but I didn't get her story in full, but I know her.
MS GOSO: Do you know Noluyolo?
CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that for me please?
MS GOSO: Noluyolo.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MKETSU: I know her.
MS GOSO: Do you know whether her house was attacked during that time?
MR MKETSU: I am not sure, I did not hear anything like that.
MS GOSO: Do you know Mr Makoeto's sister, do you know that her house was attacked during that time? She was attacked during that time?
MR MKETSU: I won't say at that time, because the battle of the houses started in 1991 and it was quiet in 1992 and then it started again in 1993, but I can't actually specify what period it was, but I heard something like that, but I am not sure whether it happened during the first conflict or the second one.
Because even then they were just attacking randomly, they were not selecting.
MS GOSO: And of course you know that she was a PAC member?
MR MKETSU: I know that.
CHAIRPERSON: You are not suggesting that PAC houses exclusively were attacked, are you?
MS GOSO: My instructions are that there was an attack on PAC members' houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Exclusively?
MS GOSO: Yes, a concerted effort.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about concerted, I am talking about exclusively? In other words only PAC members' houses were attacked?
MS GOSO: Those are the instructions that I have.
CHAIRPERSON: That is what I want to know, whether that is what you are putting?
MS GOSO: Yes, that is what I am putting.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MS GOSO: Now, when you were Treasurer in your Branch, how many members did the Organisation have?
MR MKETSU: We used to appoint the Branch, we used to hold election when we had 50 members. We never have elections if we had something less than 50. That was the policy.
CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the question. Please answer the question. When you were the Treasurer, how many members were there in your Branch? If you can answer the question, please tell us.
MR MKETSU: I had 50 members.
MS GOSO: Exactly 50 and this was in 1996?
MR MKETSU: In 1996 there were 50 members, there were 50 members. The number was 50.
MS GOSO: How do you remember that?
MR MKETSU: I remember that.
MS GOSO: What makes you remember that?
MR MKETSU: We wouldn't have elections if we don't have 50 people, if we didn't have 50 people, we wouldn't have elections.
MS GOSO: You are ...
CHAIRPERSON: You are not very helpful. It is not how many members you have to have before you have elections. The question is did you not have more than 50 members, or is it just 50 members?
MR MKETSU: Those that I noticed in 1996, 50 members, it is only 50 members that we had.
MS GOSO: There maybe others which you do not remember, isn't it?
CHAIRPERSON: How do you answer a question like that? There may be others, but you haven't mentioned any names, so how would he know if there were others? He has just mentioned the number.
MS GOSO: He has mentioned in his reply, I don't know because I have not been listening to the translation, but in Xhosa, what he was saying was that he only remembers 50 and my question followed as a result of his response to an otherwise simple question of how many members were there.
CHAIRPERSON: Were there not more than 50 members in 1996?
MR MKETSU: I can't be so sure about that, but the only thing that I know is that the number had reached 50.
There were not less than 50, that I am sure about.
MS GOSO: Do you have a good recollection who those members were?
MR MKETSU: No. I cannot recall but I used to know them, because I was staying with them at Crossroads.
MS GOSO: Mr Mketsu, I don't think you are really doing justice to my question. I want to know if you, out of the 50 members that you know that were there, you have a good recollection of who they were?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to know whether he knows the name of the 50 people, is that what you are asking?
MS GOSO: Yes Mr Chairman, in order to be able to say X couldn't have been amongst that 50.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's ask him, do you know the names of all the 50 people, or did you just know them by sight?
MR MKETSU: I used to know them by sight. I knew their names also by seeing them.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this relevant, because this is talking about 1996?
MS GOSO: That was a mistake. I want to put the same question in relation to 1993, that was a slip on my part. I aimed at 1993.
CHAIRPERSON: Ask him that.
MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairman. How many members did your Branch have in 1993?
MR MKETSU: In 1993 my Branch had 50 members.
MS GOSO: So, Mr Mketsu, this membership was not growing. In 1993 the members were 50, 1994, 1995, even in 1996, the number of the membership was 50? Is that correct?
MR MKETSU: The number was growing, but I can't tell you now how many members were there, but there were above 50. The only thing that I noticed was that the number had reached 50. That is the only thing I could notice.
MS GOSO: In 1993 in particular, it could have been more?
MR MKETSU: That might be the case, but all I know is that all that was on my mind was that at least we had 50 members, and if we had 50 members, at the end of the year we change them.
We wouldn't change the members if we didn't have 50.
MS GOSO: And amongst these members, who could have added up to this 50 - these are people that you have no independent recollection of who they were, isn't it?
DR TSOTSI: Ms Goso, do you want to know really who, whether so and so was there as a member. Why don't you go straight to it?
MS GOSO: Mr Mketsu, you have said that Mr Maduna was not a member in 1993. If you did not have an independent recollection of all the members, how can you be sure that he was not?
MR MKETSU: What made me to be sure of that is because today it is the first time that I hear that name here. I used to take note of people's names and I knew their faces also.
I can even tell you that that was so and so. The people, all the people who were in my Branch.
MS GOSO: Finally ...
DR TSOTSI: Have you seen Mr Maduna today, the man called Mr Maduna? Is he here?
MR MKETSU: I won't tell anything about Mr Maduna.
DR TSOTSI: Well, you might know him by another name. Can he stand up? Is he here? Do you know that man?
MR MKETSU: This is my first time to see that face.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
MS GOSO: Finally Mr Mketsu, I just want to ask one question, were you told in whose matter you were going to come and testify here today?
MR MKETSU: No. I was not told about Maduna's application, but I got a message from a child that I am being requested to come to the Truth Commission. It is a child who brought that message to me.
MS GOSO: Finally and in conclusion, I want to put it to you that not only do you have an independent recollection whether Mr Maduna was a member or not, but also you are also a disgruntled ex-member of the PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: That is argument, isn't it? That is hardly evidence?
MS GOSO: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: I say that is argument, that is not evidence. You can make that submission when the time comes.
MS GOSO: No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what you are really trying to say is Mr Maduna, I am sorry the evidence you are giving here today is because you are disgruntled with the PAC and you are giving evidence against it. That is what you are trying to say, isn't it?
MS GOSO: Yes, if I can put that to him and get what his response is.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You see, it is being put to you that you are not impartial, you are giving evidence because you are unhappy, you are disgruntled with the PAC and that is the only reason why you are giving the evidence you give.
That is what Counsel is trying to put to you. Have you anything to say about that?
MR MKETSU: I can't even comment on Mr Maduna's case. I don't know Maduna. I don't even know that name, it is for the very first time that I hear about that.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Anything else?
MS GOSO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to ask?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fortuin, any re-examination?
MR FORTUIN: None at all.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions? Yes, thank you very much, you are excused from further attendance.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any further witnesses?
MR FORTUIN: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses?
MR MAPOMA: No sir, there is no further evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: My Committee has been thinking about whether a man whose name has been mentioned here in connection with the murders that took place, Tinage, apparently it is known, it seems, that he is serving a term of imprisonment at some place or the other, his name - we are told what his name is, it may not be the same Tinage, it may be somebody else, but assuming it is the same person, is he not an implicated person and ought notice not to be served on him?
Have you any views on that?
MS GOSO: He definitely qualifies as an implicated person Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in terms of the Act I think, I think in terms of the Act, we are obliged to serve a notice on him, don't you think so?
MS GOSO: I am not so sure whether that is a discretionary matter or an obligation matter. Maybe the leader of evidence can assist in that regard.
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, in terms of Section 19(4) of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, the Commission, we are enjoined to notify him as an implicated person. In fact Chairperson, had we known beforehand what his uncoded name is, we would have notified him.
The problem that led us in not notifying him was that at that moment sir, we did not know his uncoded name, we only knew the name Tinage. But now that we had the benefit of knowing who actually Tinage's full names are, I think we are obliged to notify him sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fortuin, have you any views on that matter?
MR FORTUIN: I would go along with my colleagues Mr Chairperson, that certainly Tinage is being implicated, and therefore I think he is entitled also to respond or to the audi alteram partem rule should apply here, that he be given an opportunity also to say whether he is part of this conspiracy or not.
MS GOSO: If I can come in Mr Chairman. Tinage qualifying as he may be as an implicated person, I do not know whether there is an obligation on the Committee to hear his matter jointly, together with ...
CHAIRPERSON: No, implicated means he is afforded an opportunity to clear his name, if he chooses to. In other words we are not calling upon him to apply for amnesty.
No man can be compelled to apply for amnesty. If Tinage did not apply for amnesty, it is too late in any case at this stage for him to apply. It is merely to afford him an opportunity as an implicated person, to clear his name or to comment on it if he chooses to. That is the, as I understand it, the provisions of that Section.
MS GOSO: Yes Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Yes? My colleague tells me that even on your affidavit the name Victor Sam appears.
MS GOSO: Yes, it does Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Not your affidavit, the affidavit of the applicant, as a person who came with a bag which contained weapons?
MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And to that extent he may be an implicated person as well. The Committee will take an appropriate decision in the matter, after having given it due consideration. If it comes to the conclusion that there is no need to serve this notice, if it does come to that conclusion, then we will proceed with considering the evidence and coming to a decision on this application. If we come to the conclusion that we are obliged to serve notices on implicated persons, we will hold back our decision and in due course, you will be informed and you Mr Fortuin, you will be informed of our decision.
Is there anything else that you wish to add at this stage?
MR MAPOMA: No sir, there is nothing more.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the Committee will now adjourn. We have come to the end of these proceedings, for the time being at any rate. Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
