Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: This is the continuation of the Amnesty Committee session held in Cape Town. The Panel consists of myself, Denzil Potgieter, I am assisted by Advocates Bosman and Sigodi. We will be hearing the amnesty application this morning of Mr Yekwani in respect of the incident concerning Mr Jack. Now I want the parties to place themselves on record. I'm going to start with Mr Riley for the applicant, can you just place yourself on record. Can you just, there's a red button on that microphone.

MR RILEY: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you can just rewind.

MR RILEY: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I confirm that I act on behalf of Mr Yekwani in this application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Riley. And then I think Mr Toyise. Mr Toyise are you going to participate in the proceedings, are you going to represent your own interests at the hearing?

MR TOYISE: I am only going to participate when the need comes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, have you interpreted that?

INTERPRETER: The answer is "I am going to participate when it is required".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes there might be something wrong with my headset. I'll use my colleague's one and just see if it works. Yes, can you just repeat that?

INTERPRETER: Mr Toyise said he is only going to take part when he is required to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you and then you'll be representing your own interests? You don't have a lawyer in other words, who will be assisting you, you will be handling the matter yourself?

MR TOYISE: There is a gentleman next to me I think he is going to help me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Mr Williams? Alright, Mr Williams perhaps then we should go to you and you can put yourself on record and just confirm who you are representing in these proceedings?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The name is Peter Williams, I'm acting on behalf of certain implicated and interested parties namely Mr Gladstone Ntamo ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just go a bit slower Mr Williams, I just want to make a note of that. Just a minute. Mr Ntamo you say, and who else?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Tony Yengeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Bongani Jonas.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: As well as the ANC Western Cape. Mr Chairperson I must say that this particular hearing has certain implications for the ANC and that is why the ANC approached me to represent them herein.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know if Mr Toyise's view has taken you by surprise?

MR WILLIAMS: It has Mr Chairperson. I haven't consulted with Mr Toyise and Mr Chairperson I'm going to have difficulty in acting on behalf of Mr Toyise given the fact that I haven't consulted with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I don't know whether he's - perhaps I should just clarify it with him but he hasn't in so many words actually said that you were his lawyer, he was just sort of saying that. Perhaps there's some assistance forthcoming from you, perhaps I should just clarify that with him because at this stage you don't haven't any formal instructions you say in respect of Mr Toyise's matter?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well. Mr Toyise, have you listened to what Mr Williams told us now?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I'm listening sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he says that he isn't really here today to assist you, in fact he hasn't spoken with you about this case and so on and he might have some problems to help you so you understand that, did you follow that?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now what is your position, how are you going to - are you able to look after your own interest or what?

MR WILLIAMS: I do not see any problem on my side as I do not have a legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if there is a difficulty you let us know and we will see what we can do about that but that will then be the position at the moment. Mr Williams, I think we've got your clients then on record? And then Advocate Ismail?

MR JAMIE: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, the name is Ismail Jamie, I represent the Jacks family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Jamie, sorry. And then Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel, leader of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, I think we've got the appearances. Yes Mr Riley, is there anything else that you want to put on record or do you want us to administer the oath to your client?

MR RILEY: I have nothing further. You may proceed Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR RILEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Yekwani, where are you originally from?

MR YEKWANI: I was born in Doordricht but I was staying in Whittlesea at ...(indistinct).

MR RILEY: And where did you have your schooling?

MR YEKWANI: In Whittlesea the name of the school Funda.

MR RILEY: And tell us when did you become involved with the African National Congress?

MR YEKWANI: I joined CACOR in 1985 here in Cape Town.

MR RILEY: Where in Cape Town?

MR YEKWANI: At KTC.

MR RILEY: And can you tell us how you then - what you did after you in fact joined CACOR?

MR YEKWANI: After I joined I decided to also join the underground structure so that I could be able to operate there.

MR RILEY: Why did you want to join the underground structure?

MR YEKWANI: My aim was to try and protect the community because I could see what was happening. The government in those days was killing the people so I wanted to protect the community.

MR RILEY: And where precisely were you based as part of the underground structure?

MR YEKWANI: In the Nyanga East area.

MR RILEY: Were you under any person in particular's command at the time?

MR RILEY: Yes at the time I had a commander.

MR RILEY: And who was that?

MR YEKWANI: It was Dax Takuze.

MR RILEY: And where was he at that time?

MR YEKWANI: He was also present at KTC where at the same unit.

MR RILEY: Do you recall how many persons were in your unit at that time?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot say for sure when it comes to the number but the unit was also composed of people from Bekweni, it was not only people from my area.

MR RILEY: And apart from Dax was there any other persons of the ANC that you had to report to?

MR YEKWANI: Yes there were other people like Mr Ntamo, he was one of the commanders in the area.

MR RILEY: What role did he play? Mr Ntamo, what was his role?

MR YEKWANI: He was a community leader and even in the SDUs we regarded him as the commander.

MR RILEY: Now in the time that you were in the underground structure and in the time that you were part of the SDUs where did you obtain your weaponry from to execute any tasks that you were supposed to execute?

MR YEKWANI: I used to borrow the firearm from Mr Ndamo.

MR RILEY: What firearm was this?

MR YEKWANI: An R4 rifle.

MR RILEY: Can you just explain to us today precisely what the arrangement was between yourself and Mr Ntamo insofar as that particular weapon was concerned? What I'm trying to ascertain from you is did you if you borrowed the weapon on a particular occasion did you keep it with you the whole time or did you have to take it back to him or how did it work.

MR YEKWANI: Sometimes I would take it back to him but sometimes I would keep the weapon with me if there was something else to be done.

MR RILEY: Did you yourself ever personally own an R4 rifle?

MR YEKWANI: I never owned a rifle, any rifle.

MR RILEY: Now you explained to us that you got involved with the SDUs to protect the community and because what was happening in the country at the time. Was anyone giving any specific instructions as to whatever missions were to be accomplished by your particular unit?

MR YEKWANI: No, there were no instructions in our unit, we used to take initiative taking into consideration the situation at the time.

MR RILEY: And what was your specific targets at that particular point in time?

MR YEKWANI: Our aim was to fight the police.

MR RILEY: Now did you in fact if you did decide to go on a particular mission or execute a particular task against the police and/or the authority, did you in fact tell Mr Ntamo or any of the commanders where you were in fact going to make a hit or execute a mission?

MR YEKWANI: No, I never used to tell him but whenever I was taking a firearm from him I used to tell him that I was going to patrol, that's all he knew. I just said I was going to look for police because it was well known that the police were the enemy.

MR RILEY: And did he know what your attitude and feelings was towards the police?

MR YEKWANI: Could you please repeat the question?

MR RILEY: Did he know what your attitude was, what your feelings were to the police at that point in time?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I can say he was aware that I used to hate policemen because he knew what the police did to me when I was arrested.

MR RILEY: Now won't you be kind enough and tell us - so it would appear then that from what you're saying to us that you basically although Mr Ntamo was present there and there were various other commanders there within the area, there was no specific reporting to them about what was going on and you were basically operating in a very unsupervised fashion, would you say that would be correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is true, I used to report after the incident, I never used to report before the operation.

MR RILEY: And what was the reason for not reporting before the incident?

MR YEKWANI: I was scared because he would tell a person about a mission and when you get there the police would be there waiting for you so I was trying to avoid that, that is why I did not want to report before the mission.

MR RILEY: Now you were provided with firearms or with a firearm by Mr Ntamo. Is it correct that prior to the incident that resulted in the death of Mr Jack that you in fact were sent to jail for a period of time?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was arrested in 1987.

MR RILEY: What was that for?

MR YEKWANI: For burning the house of a policeman in Guguletu.

MR RILEY: Who was that?

MR YEKWANI: Mr Fulani.

MR RILEY: And you were sentenced to five years imprisonment, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes it was five years but I only spent two years and six months inside.

MR RILEY: Now prior to your being incarcerated prior to you going to jail did you ever undergo any specific training for military purposes?

MR YEKWANI: No, not at that time.

MR RILEY: And after your release from prison how did you feel about what happened to you, the fact that you had been in jail, how did you feel?

MR YEKWANI: I was released and I had told myself that I was going to go ahead with my battle to hit the police.

MR RILEY: And where did you in fact go and stay after that?

MR YEKWANI: I went back to KTC where I used to stay before.

MR RILEY: Did you stay with anyone in particular?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was staying with someone, Comrade Dax, but when I came from prison he had passed away and there was another gentleman who was staying with me.

MR RILEY: Now did you report to any particular person then, you know on a daily basis about your activities? Did you see any particular person about what you would do within the course of the day?

MR YEKWANI: No, the only person that I would tell him about my activities was a comrade, the one that was staying with me, not anyone else.

MR RILEY: Now won't you tell us prior to the killing, death of Mr Buyiswa Jack were you involved in any particular missions of note that you can recall?

MR YEKWANI: Yes the other missions, I can still remember the other incident that took place in Khayelitsha.

MR RILEY: Can you explain to us today how it came about, what was the cause of you going out on the night in question which resulted in the Jack?

MR YEKWANI: We made a decision as for comrade, myself, Ntandaso and Michael and Tobani.

MR RILEY: Why was that decision made?

MR YEKWANI: It was after realising what was done that the police were harassing the SDUs looking for firearms and we were not satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yekwani, just repeat those names please? Yourself and who else?

MR YEKWANI: Tobani, Michael and Ntandaso.

CHAIRPERSON: And who are these other people?

MR YEKWANI: Tobani, Michael and Ntandaso. I'm the fourth person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RILEY: Who are they? Were they part of your unit? What role did they play?

MR YEKWANI: Two of them, Michael and Ntandaso belonged to Brown's Farm branch, that was ANC Youth League.

MR RILEY: And Tobani?

MR YEKWANI: Tobani used to tell us that he used to belong to a unit in Paarl and when he came to the area and I also involved him in my own unit.

MR RILEY: Did you operate together?

MR YEKWANI: That was for the very first time for me and him to work together. Yes it's the same with them also.

MR RILEY: Now did anything in particular happen at Khayelitsha immediately prior to the incident of Mr Pro Jack's death that resulted in you deciding to go out on that particular night?

MR YEKWANI: What made us to go out on that particular night, there was an incident in Khayelitsha, there had been an incident whereby people were arrested and we were awoken at Brown's Farm and we were told that Mr Toyise was arrested with a firearm.

MR RILEY: Anything else? Did anything else happen?

MR YEKWANI: Yes there were other incidents, things that were done by police because ...(indistinct) about eight people who were shot in one day.

MR RILEY: Were they killed or were they just shot?

MR YEKWANI: They were killed by the police.

MR RILEY: Is it fair to say therefore that on the night that you then decided to go out again that you were going basically out to take revenge against the authorities, the police?

MR YEKWANI: As it used to be my duty to keep guard on police.

MR RILEY: I just want to check with you, after your release from prison, did you in fact receive any military training after that?

MR YEKWANI: I got training after shooting at police in Khayelitsha.

MR RILEY: Was that prior to the death of Mr Jack?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR RILEY: Where did you receive your training?

MR YEKWANI: Transkei, Butterworth.

MR RILEY: And who was responsible for training you?

MR YEKWANI: Fatty who was an MK member, an ANC member.

MR RILEY: Now how long did you undergo this training?

MR YEKWANI: I told them that six weeks was enough because I had no time to go across the borders to acquire training.

MR RILEY: So if we can get back to the incident, can you tell us, it was yourself and Tobani, Michael and Ntandaso. What did you decide to do on that particular night?

MR YEKWANI: We decided upon fighting the police who were arresting the people, disarming the people and shooting the people. We realised that we had enough weapons. Rather than waiting for the police to come and confiscate our weapons, we decided that it would be better for us to go out and fight them.

MR RILEY: What weapon did you have?

MR YEKWANI: I had an R4 rifle, Tobani had a 38 special. Michael had a Mosback.

MR RILEY: What is that?

MR YEKWANI: I do not know that firearm but it was used by the special police.

MR RILEY: Was it a rifle or handgun or what?

MR YEKWANI: I can say it was a rifle but not an automatic one.

MR RILEY: What did it shoot, what kind of ammunition did it shoot?

MR YEKWANI: I used to call that pellets because it releases something like pellets at the same time, a lot of pellets at the same time.

MR RILEY: Like buckshot?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I can say so because I used my own language, I didn't know it in English.

MR RILEY: What did the other person have, did the other person have a firearm?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot remember very well when it comes to Michael's firearm but I remember Michael and Tobani.

MR RILEY: Now can you tell us where you went to and why you decided to go to that particular place?

MR YEKWANI: I had seen before that as we were looking for the van we wanted to see if we cannot get a van, a vehicle.

MR RILEY: A police van I take it you're referring to now?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I'm talking about a police van. We decided to go to Lansdowne Road because we knew that there was one coming from Nyanga Police Station and from Philippi and Khayelitsha. I know that they would take a turn at Lansdowne Road.

MR RILEY: So you placed yourselves strategically then at that corner there? Where precisely were you in that area?

MR YEKWANI: At Lansdowne Road next to a turn that goes to Nyanga Station and there's another street that is going towards Philippi and there are trees next to the road and I'm the one who decided to stand next to that tree because I wanted to be the first one to attack.

MR RILEY: And what was the weather conditions like?

MR YEKWANI: It was a bit misty on that evening.

MR RILEY: And approximately what time was it when you decided to go out there?

MR YEKWANI: When I arrived there it was before ten because the van that we were expecting was to go past there at about ten when the police are changing shifts.

MR RILEY: Yes, won't you be kind enough and explain what happened further?

MR YEKWANI: As we were standing there facing the Philippi direction and I knew that it was time and the van was on the way, I heard comrade Sevani saying to me there was a car behind me, that is when I decided to turn and fire because I had no other option when he told me that there was a car behind me and I knew that those were police, they were coming either to arrest me or shoot me. I turned and I fired. As I am a left handed person, I turned and I pointed the firearm straight to the driver's window. I pulled the trigger.

MR RILEY: Do you recall how many shots you discharged?

Do you recall how many shots you fired?

MR YEKWANI: I knew this R4 was an automatic, I did not count because the rifle was automatic.

MR RILEY: What then happened? You were firing at the motor vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: I fired and I wanted to be sure that the car is not moving until we take cover and I also wanted to make sure that no one gets out of the vehicle.

MR RILEY: It doesn't appear as if you in fact then looked who the occupants of the vehicle was before you were in fact started firing?

MR YEKWANI: I did not notice at the time but I just looked and I saw that there were people inside the car at the front of the car when I was shooting but I did not take a closer look to see as to what kind of people were there.

MR RILEY: So at the time then sir when you were firing the shots at this motor vehicle there and persons in the motor vehicle, who did you think you were firing the shots at?

MR YEKWANI: I was sure that that was my enemy, the police that is.

MR RILEY: After you had fired the shots at the motor vehicle as you say you wanted to make sure that this motor vehicle didn't move away from the scene there again, what then happened?

MR YEKWANI: I fired and after that we crossed the road, we went to a squatter camp called Brown's Farm.

MR RILEY: Now just before we move off to Brown's Farm now, at the time that you were firing the shots can you say whether your other comrades in fact were also firing shots at the motor vehicle or not?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot say for sure because I was also disturbed by the noise that was coming from my own firearm, I cannot say that they did not shoot but I am certain that I did fire.

MR RILEY: You're sure that you fired?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I am sure that I did fire.

MR RILEY: Do you recall how you were in fact dressed on that particular night?

MR YEKWANI: I remember very well.

MR RILEY: Would you be kind enough and explain?

MR YEKWANI: We went to a place as we had decided before the mission, we went to that particular place and they asked the comrades as to what kind of a car was that, the car that we shot at but no one knew.

MR RILEY: No, maybe you misunderstood me, I'll get back to that now. What kind of clothing did you have on, do you recall how you were dressed, what clothing you had on?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I remember myself but I cannot remember the other comrades clothes.

MR RILEY: Do you mind to tell us what you had on?

MR YEKWANI: I was wearing a lumber jacket, that was I was wearing some jacket or coat that was long and I had a hat on my head and I was wearing a pair of jeans and some training shoes.

MR RILEY: What kind of a hat was that you had on?

MR YEKWANI: Black hat.

MR RILEY: Did it cover your face?

MR YEKWANI: No, it was just an ordinary hat not a balaclava but if you pull it down it can cover the ears.

MR RILEY: Do you recall whether any of the other persons who were with you in fact had balaclavas on their heads?

MR YEKWANI: No one was wearing any balaclava but they had some hats on their heads, Ntandaso and Michael, but Tobani had no hat.

MR RILEY: Do you recall whether prior to this shooting anyone called out the name of or the nickname of Mr Pro Jack?

MR YEKWANI: No, I never heard any person.

MR RILEY: If someone had in fact called out his name would you have heard his name being called?

MR YEKWANI: From the two who were standing with me there I could have heard if someone did make mention of Pro Jack's name.

MR RILEY: Did you know Mr Pro Jack personally prior to that incident?

MR YEKWANI: No I did not know Mr Pro Jack at the time, the only person that I knew from that family was Buyiswa Jack.

MR RILEY: Now after the shooting where did you say did you go to?

MR YEKWANI: We went to a place that was decided upon, a place where I used to stay, Brown's Farm that is.

MR RILEY: And what happened there at Brown's Farm?

MR YEKWANI: I asked the comrades if they knew that car, the car that was standing behind me, no one knew a thing about the car.

MR RILEY: Yes?

MR YEKWANI: I thought those were policemen. We dispersed and I was left with Tobani and we went to bed.

MR RILEY: What happened the next day?

MR YEKWANI: We saw Michael come with a newspaper reporting that Pro Jack was shot at Lansdowne Road the previous night.

MR RILEY: And when Michael in fact said that the person - is it also correct that it was at the same place where you had in fact then fired shots at this particular motor vehicle that you had thought was the police?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is true.

MR RILEY: And when Michael then came on that morning, the next morning and said to you that the person who had been killed during the shooting was in fact Mr Pro Jack, how did you feel about that?

MR YEKWANI: I was very hurt because it was a mistake as that was not my intention.

MR RILEY: What did you then do after the four of you realised then that you had in fact killed Mr Pro Jack?

MR YEKWANI: I told the comrades after reading the newspaper, I told them not to reveal the news to anyone, they must leave it as is.

MR RILEY: Why did you do that?

MR YEKWANI: I knew that they were innocent, I was a perpetrator in this case but they were there as our witnesses.

MR RILEY: What did you do then, what happened after that?

MR YEKWANI: On that particular day in the afternoon I decided to go and tell Mr Langa about this incident because I didn't know that I had killed a fellow comrade, I thought I was directing at policemen.

MR RILEY: Yes but when you now found out that it was in fact Mr Jack did you then decide to go and tell Mr Langa what had happened?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I couldn't relax after hearing that because it was not my intention to kill my fellow comrades.

MR RILEY: Where did you see Mr Langa?

MR YEKWANI: He was in his firm where he used to work.

MR RILEY: And why did you go and tell him?

MR YEKWANI: I wanted to reveal this but I was confused, I didn't know where to start but I wanted to get it out of my heart and Pro Jack was also a comrade in the same organisation that I supported.

MR RILEY: What was Mr Langa's position within the party at the time?

MR YEKWANI: Mr Langa was a committee leader, I am not sure as to what his portfolio was but he was also a respected person in the community.

MR RILEY: After you told Mr Langa what had happened, what did he say to you?

MR YEKWANI: Mr Langa told me not to tell anyone about this, he's going to try some means as to tell the people.

MR RILEY: What then happened?

MR YEKWANI: Mr Langa told me that "you are going to see an attorney".

MR RILEY: How long was this after the death of Mr Jack? Approximately, that he came and told you that you were going to see an attorney?

MR YEKWANI: It was not followed but it happened in 1991 but I cannot remember the date and the month.

MR RILEY: Apart from Mr Langa and apart from the attorney that you later spoke about this incident to did you tell any other person about this particular shooting of Mr Pro Jack?

MR YEKWANI: I told no one about this incident except Mr Langa and the attorneys because even the ANC people did enquire about it from me but I denied my involvement.

MR RILEY: Why did you deny your involvement?

MR YEKWANI: As Mr Langa had told me that to reveal this to other people he was going to find some means to try and tell the people about it. I wanted to get a go ahead from Mr Langa because ...(intervention)

MR RILEY: Yes? Because?

MR YEKWANI: I was afraid to tell an individual.

MR RILEY: Now when you went to the attorneys, who accompanied you?

MR YEKWANI: It was Dan Nkwatcho.

MR RILEY: Now who was Dan Nkwatcho at that point in time?

MR YEKWANI: He was just an MK member from the exile.

MR RILEY: And which lawyer did you go and see, which lawyer's firm first of all?

MR YEKWANI: Joshua and Mr Wilkinson who were at Athlone.

MR RILEY: The firm then Wilkinson, Joshua, Ghiwala is the firm that you went to go and see, is that right?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: When you went there do you recall which of the attorneys you spoke to?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I remember, I spoke to Mr Joshua.

MR RILEY: And did you in fact relate to Mr Joshua what had happened?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I told him.

MR RILEY: Just tell us, when you in fact related this story to Mr Joshua, by that time had you already told Dan Nkwatcho what had happened and what your involvement was in the death of Mr Pro Jack?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not tell him.

MR RILEY: And at the time that you in fact spoke to Mr Joshua, who was present in the office when you in fact related the story?

MR YEKWANI: Dan Nkwatcho was present and even when I was taking an oath he was also present.

MR RILEY: So you're saying to us that Mr Nkwatcho then heard according to you what had happened on the night that Mr Pro Jack was killed?

MR YEKWANI: Yes he got that from me when we were there in the lawyer's office.

MR RILEY: Now after you in fact told the lawyer what had happened, what happened after that?

MR YEKWANI: The Truth Commission came in 1997, Mark Killian, investigating about Pro Jack's death.

MR RILEY: Now before we go to Mark Killian and the TRC, after the death of Mr Jack, did you have occasion at any time to speak to any high placed official within the ANC as a result of the death of Mr Jack?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR RILEY: How did that come about?

MR YEKWANI: Even when I was in the Transkei, Chris Hani the Chief of Staff asked me about this incident about this firearm, the one that was used killing Pro Jack. He wanted to know if it was not the very same firearm that was used in killing the police in Khayelitsha but I denied that.

MR RILEY: Why did you deny that?

MR YEKWANI: I got scared and it was difficult for me to talk about it because it was not easy for me to do so.

MR RILEY: Did you in fact speak to any persons within the ANC investigative unit regarding this particular incident?

MR YEKWANI: Yes, Nswandile Jacobs once called me in the Woodstock offices, asking me about this incident. I also denied my involvement. Did you also deny your involvement to

him?

MR YEKWANI: We had an agreement with Mr Langa that I shouldn't tell anyone. He is the one who is going to tell the ANC about this incident.

MR RILEY: Did the lawyers Wilkinson, Joshua and Ghiwala, did they or anyone at that office ever come back to you again prior to you going to the TRC?

MR YEKWANI: No, they never came back.

MR RILEY: Why did you decide then as you say in 1997 to come to the TRC?

MR YEKWANI: I didn't come voluntarily, Mark Killian came to investigate and I was also waiting for a moment when I would get a chance to go and talk about this.

MR RILEY: Why was that, why did you want to talk about it?

MR YEKWANI: It's because I was not happy and I couldn't keep it with me any more because it was a mistake and another thing that was worse was the fact that Pro Jack was a fellow comrade therefore I couldn't keep this information any more.

MR RILEY: Did anyone, anyone whatsoever instruct you to in fact kill Mr Pro Jack?

MR YEKWANI: No, no one instructed me to do so.

MR RILEY: Now when you in fact before going to the TRC did you ever have occasion to speak to the lawyers, Wilkinson, Joshua and Ghiwala again?

MR YEKWANI: No, I made another statement after Mr Joshua's death and I went to Mr Wilkinson and made another statement, same as the one before.

MR RILEY: Did you know whether in fact the TRC managed to get hold of the statement that you made to the attorneys?

MR YEKWANI: No, I have no idea about that.

MR RILEY: As far as you are concerned, the statement that you made then to the attorney is the same statement that you made to the TRC?

MR YEKWANI: Yes it is the same because I mentioned that I'm taking about here today.

MR RILEY: Did Dan Nkwatcho or Mr Langa ever come back to you again and speak to you about what was going to happen or what the ANC had decided as a result of what had happened?

MR YEKWANI: No, not at all. I've been waiting for them until Mr Langa passed away.

MR RILEY: And after he passed away did you ever go and speak to Mr Nkwatcho again?

MR YEKWANI: No.

MR RILEY: Now you then went and you spoke to the TRC, you said to us, now is there anything that you want to add about having gone to the TRC and your reasons for coming to the TRC?

MR YEKWANI: The reason for me to come forward, I just want the people to get the truth and they should know that it was a mistake from my side.

MR RILEY: Now Mr Yekwani, is there anything today that you would like to say to Mr Pro Jack's mother and his family to in fact express the way that you feel as a result of causing his death?

MR YEKWANI: I can say I feel very bad and Pro Jack was more like a brother to me because we were fellow comrades and I had no intentions to kill him. If there was an instruction from a particular person I was going to be able to mention the name of that person. There's nothing to hide when it comes to this case. I want to tell them that this is the only truth and even the ANC people should know that.

MR RILEY: Is there anything else that you want to say, sir?

MR YEKWANI: There's nothing at the moment.

MR RILEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson, there's nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RILEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Riley. Mr Yekwani, in the light of what you have said in your evidence, if you known that it was Mr Jack who was driving the vehicle, would you still have fired on the vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: If I knew that the driver was Mr Jack I couldn't have done that because he was a well known comrade but to me I didn't even know him and I didn't even know his car.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Toyise, is there anything that you wanted to ask Mr Yekwani?

MR TOYISE: No I have no questions at the moment.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR TOYISE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Williams, have you got any questions?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chair, can I just confer with Mr Gladstone for half a minute?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Yekwani, before you decided to go and attack the police as you've stated, did you tell Mr Gladstone Ntamo what you were going to do?

MR YEKWANI: No, he knew that whenever I borrow a firearm from him, saying that I was going to patrol he was aware of the fact that I was going to hit the police.

MR WILLIAMS: How many times did you actually hit the police?

MR YEKWANI: I can say in Khayelitsha, one incident in Khayelitsha and in Nyanga East.

MR WILLIAMS: You told the Committee earlier in your evidence that you told Mr Ntamo that "I used to tell him that I was going to patrol"?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now did you tell Mr Ntamo after this incident, immediately after the incident that you committed this deed?

MR YEKWANI: No, I didn't tell him, I only told Mr Langa.

MR WILLIAMS: Why did you go to Mr Langa when according to your evidence Mr Ntamo was your commander?

MR YEKWANI: I wanted to get some advise, as an elderly person I knew that he some experiences so I wanted to get some advice from him.

MR WILLIAMS: Now why didn't you go to your commander, wasn't your commander the best place to get your advice?

MR YEKWANI: It is because I didn't tell him even before the mission.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes but according to you he was your commander, so weren't you in terms of the way you operated, weren't you answerable to your commander?

MR YEKWANI: Yes he was a commander but not in the battle field. I used to recognise the commander only in the battle field not just an ordinary, not a commander like him, I never used to recognise such people.

MR WILLIAMS: So are you trying to tell the Committee now that Mr Ntamo wasn't really a commander?

MR YEKWANI: Yes he was a commander but not in the battle field.

MR WILLIAMS: I fail to understand your distinction?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yekwani, who was the commander in the battle field?

MR YEKWANI: At the time I was the commander, at the time of the incident.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you Mr Yekwani. Now Mr Yekwani, isn't it correct that the one firearm that was in Mr Ntamo's possession was obtained by the community and it was allocated specifically for yourself or to yourself?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And this is then the weapon that you went to fetch by Mr Ntamo?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it also correct that on occasion Mr Ntamo asked you if he could borrow the weapon from you for a period of time?

MR YEKWANI: He never used to borrow the firearm from me but I'm the one who used to borrow it from him.

MR WILLIAMS: So are you saying that the weapon was allocated to yourself but it was merely kept under the control of Mr Ntamo?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Yekwani, if I understand your evidence correctly, you and your accomplices or the people who were with you that night, you went out there with the specific mission to shoot at the police, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you know exactly when the police vehicle had passed by the place where you were hiding out?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I knew that the time was ten o'clock but if they were late that would be at least half past ten.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you expected a police vehicle to pass there between ten and half past ten?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Did other cars make use of that road?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Did a lot of cars use that road or did only a few cars use that road between those times?

MR YEKWANI: Lansdowne Road is a busy road, it's a public road.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can I just clarify something with the applicant? When you wanted to target a police vehicle did you have it in your mind what kind of a police vehicle you wanted to attack?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I knew that a police vehicle is different from private cars.

ADV SIGODI: And what kind of a police vehicle were you targeting?

MR YEKWANI: It was a van, a Cantor.

ADV SIGODI: And what car did the deceased drive on that day?

MR YEKWANI: I did not take note of the colour of the car because when I turned I was disturbed by the light of the car therefore I could not get a chance to see the colour of the car.

ADV SIGODI: What make or type of vehicle did the deceased drive?

MR YEKWANI: Even the make of the car I couldn't see that.

ADV SIGODI: No I did not get that opportunity because we had to cross the road and we started running.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it a van or a motor car or what was it?

MR YEKWANI: I think it was not a van it was just a motor car.

CHAIRPERSON: It was just an ordinary sedan car, an ordinary vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: It was just an ordinary car with four seats.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I was going to come to those questions later. I think the last question I asked you, your answer to that question was that Lansdowne Road was a very busy road. Do I then take it that you knew that cars were driving up and down that road and that road was indeed very busy?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Yekwani, can you tell the Committee where exactly were you and the people that were with you placed? Did they stand in the road or did they stand next to the road or did they stand under trees? Where exactly were they located?

MR YEKWANI: We were next to the road, there were trees there but myself and Tobani were placed under the first tree. Michael and Ntandaso were placed under the second tree.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you hid yourselves so that -you hid yourself?

MR YEKWANI: Yes, we were hiding because we were waiting for this squad and we did not want to be visible.

MR WILLIAMS: So a car driving by innocently wouldn't actually notice you there given the fact that it was misty and you were located in such a way that you hid yourselves?

MR YEKWANI: If the person was driving on the other lane of the road he would be able to see us but he wouldn't be able to see what was in our hands.

MR WILLIAMS: Now so in other words cars driving by on the road would also pose no danger to yourself and your friends, no so?

MR YEKWANI: Cars as in ordinary cars except the police cars did not pose any threats or dangers to us.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Yekwani, what I also want to know is from the time that you and your friends came onto that scene, how many cars passed by before you attacked this particular vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: Many car had passed and we could see that those were not the cars that we were waiting for.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you then explain to the Committee why this particular car was singled out?

MR YEKWANI: I can say I got a fright and this car did not come from the direction that I was facing.

MR WILLIAMS: Now can you explain to us why did you get a fright, what was the cause of it?

MR YEKWANI: It is because I was facing the Philippi direction and I knew that the police were on the way but I heard comrade Tobani telling me that there was a car behind me.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just interpose here Mr Williams please?

You were facing the Philippi direction, was that the direction from where you expected the police car to come?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So this car that you shot at did not come from the direction from which you expected the police to come?

MR YEKWANI: It came from behind from the township.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Advocate Bosman.

Then, what I also want to know is, when you actually shot at this car how far were you from the vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: The car was not very far from me, I can say it was from where I am to the lady who is sitting here on my right hand side.

MR WILLIAMS: Plus minus two metres, two and a half metres?

CHAIRPERSON: I assume he is referring to Advocate Bosman. Yes that would be about two or three metres.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Yekwani, from other statements that were provided was it seems as if the car that Mr Jack travelled in was in fact a Golf. Would you dispute that?

MR YEKWANI: No I cannot dispute that because I did not see the car properly.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you also obviously know that a Golf looks vastly different from the normal cars that police travel in, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So I fail then to understand how I could have mistaken this car for a police vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: Yes, as a person who was scared and I knew that police sometimes they use private cars and I did not expect a car to come from behind not on the road because at that time I was not on the road.

MR WILLIAMS: Now then you also stated in your statement that there were two people in the front of the car, did you see two people in the car?

MR YEKWANI: I did not see them facially but one could see that there were people in the car.

MR WILLIAMS: Now when you fired those shots, who did you aim at?

MR YEKWANI: When I fired I turned and I pointed straight to the driver.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you fire from the front side, the windscreen side of the car or from the side, the driver's side of the car?

MR YEKWANI: When I fired as the R4 was at the automatic position I started at the window, driver's window and I continued up to the passenger.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you were basically located next to the car, you weren't in front of the car when you shot, you were next to the car, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Just a little bit but not straight, even the car was not on the side but was just a little bit on the side.

MR WILLIAMS: So at the time when you shot were you under the impression that these were two police people that were in the car?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I thought that I was shooting at police and I didn't know that there were two of them, I knew that there is a possibility that there could be other police people at the back of the car, that is why I continued shooting because I didn't want anyone to escape from that car.

MR WILLIAMS: You testified earlier that you could see that there were two people in the car, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct at the front seats of the car but I did not see whether there were people at the other back seats of the car.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it also correct that you only shot at the driver of the car?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not shoot only the driver of the car because I also wanted to make sure that even the passenger should be shot.

MR WILLIAMS: Now how did you do that because we all know now that there was a passenger in the car according to statements in front of us and that person survived, he was not killed?

MR YEKWANI: Do you want to know how did that happen? I started shooting at the driver and the rifle was on the automatic position, I shot up to the windscreen and I even went ahead to shoot on the other side of the car.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you then make sure afterwards whether in fact the second person that was in the car whether that person was shot or whether that person was killed?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I did that because even when I crossed the road I was looking and I saw that no one was getting out of the car up until we reached the squatter camp.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you go up to the car and see whether the other person was dead?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not go to the car.

MR WILLIAMS: So are you trying to convey to us that you shot recklessly at both and you assumed that the other person was also killed, that was your intention, is that what you're trying to tell us?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was so certain that even the passenger had died.

ADV SIGODI: Can I just ask? What made you think that these people were policemen?

MR YEKWANI: It was because from the position where we were I did not expect any car to come to us except the police car because this particular car left the road and went on the other side where we were and I thought that the police were coming to me to arrest me or to shoot me.

ADV SIGODI: But were you not hiding in the trees?

MR YEKWANI: We were not hiding under the trees, there was no hiding place. If you are standing next to that tree it means you were clearly visible.

MR WILLIAMS: Are you trying to tell the Committee that this car was driving in the road, the car then for some reason left the road and came to your vicinity - I mean off the road?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: The grass on the veld where you guys were standing?

MR YEKWANI: Yes it left the road. If it was the ones on the road or standing I couldn't have fired but when it came to our direction I was sure that the police are coming to arrest me or shoot me.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Yekwani, I want to put it to you and I'm also going to argue this later, that your story doesn't make sense. That I'm also going to argue later that it seems more probable that you knew who was in the car and that somehow you must have caught his attention or beckoned or called him to come closer, to leave the road and come closer to you. What do you say to that?

MR YEKWANI: I couldn't be able to do that because I didn't know this comrade.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm also going to argue that you are not making full disclosure to this Committee. You obviously know that in order to qualify for amnesty you must make a full disclosure, you must tell this Committee why you shot Pro Jack, why you singled him out and shot him, who instructed you to do that?

MR YEKWANI: In the car it was not my aim to select but my aim was to shoot everyone who was in that car.

MR WILLIAMS: Now if I understand your testimony correct you also said that you didn't know Pro Jack before this incident, is that so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I didn't know him.

MR WILLIAMS: Had you heard about him?

MR YEKWANI: No, the only person that I knew was Buyiswa Jack from that family, that was the only person that I knew.

MR WILLIAMS: Because my instructions are that Mr Pro Jack was quite active in the community especially in the KTC area. He also brought tourist to the KTC area and he helped the KTC community in facilitating peace meetings at times of violence and the KTC community in general knew Mr Pro Jack as a comrade of the ANC. What do you say to that?

MR YEKWANI: If I knew Pro Jack I wouldn't be hiding anything here before this Committee. I was going to reveal anything even if I'd received orders to do that or from the then government or somebody had instructed me to do that, I wouldn't be hiding that now, I was going to reveal that because all I can say that I don't know Pro Jack, I was released from prison in 1990, I didn't stay there all the time and I had to go to Transkei sometimes and come back again up until 1991, therefore I did not get the opportunity to know him.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Yekwani, just the last issue I want to deal with very briefly is you say that you didn't come to the TRC voluntarily but you were approached by people from the TRC, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: You mention Mr Killian's name and can you just explain to the Committee how it came about that your amnesty application was eventually lodged?

MR YEKWANI: I made a statement to Mark Killian concerning this incident of Pro Jack and I made mention of the fact that I wanted to be forgiven for that and I even wanted people to know as to what happened on that particular day.

MR WILLIAMS: Were you told that you don't need to make a statement but you can first consult with an attorney before you made a statement or what?

MR YEKWANI: No, I was never told.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you feel pressurised into making a statement?

MR YEKWANI: Yes as an investigator I was pressurised to give him the statement and he had a proof that he was coming from the Truth Commission therefore I decided that I have nothing to hide, I just have to tell him everything.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, can I just ascertain from my clients whether there's any other field that I must cover? Thank you Mr Chairperson, there's just two issues that I want to quickly deal with.

Mr Yekwani, is it correct that at the time when Mr Jack was buried and afterwards that you were posted as a guard to their house, you guarded there the family and the property?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: How did you feel about that?

MR YEKWANI: As I knew that I'm the one that has this R4 and I knew that even the enemy would get a chance to go and attack the people in prayer and I decided to be there and try and protect the people.

MR WILLIAMS: And then my last question is, is it correct that ANC was not consulted about the attack on Mr Jack before it happened and neither was it informed about it afterwards except the fact that you mention that you spoke to Mr Langa and Mr Dan Nkwatcho about it?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct, the ANC was never told about the incident.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay. Thanks Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Williams. Mr Jamie, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JAMIE: I do, Mr Chairperson. May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: Thank you. Mr Yekwani, as far as you're concerned at whose - for whose interests were you attacking as you say you thought the police that evening?

MR YEKWANI: What I didn't like was for the police to kill the people and doing nothing about that and I just wanted to satisfy myself and I wanted the people to gain confidence from us as SDU members.

MR JAMIE: Now before that evening, for how long had you been an SDU member?

MR YEKWANI: I think it was plus minus eight years.

MR JAMIE: And during that time you've testified you did not receive any training before this evening, the incident that evening?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct. No, during this, in 1990 I acquired training.

MR JAMIE: You did receive training in 1990? From who?

MR YEKWANI: From MK.

MR JAMIE: But I thought your evidence earlier was that you had not received training before that incident that evening?

MR YEKWANI: During this incident of Pro Jack, are you talking about that? I had acquired training at that time, just before this. This incident took place in 1991 and I got my training in 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he said Mr Jamie was that after his release from prison he then underwent six weeks of military training in Butterworth in the Transkei but before he went to prison he never received training.

MR JAMIE: I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood that. Now how many missions and operations had you been on sir while you were an SDU member?

MR YEKWANI: The one that I can talk about, the one that I was arrested for but I was never arrested for burning the schools.

MR JAMIE: Sorry, you were never arrested for?

MR YEKWANI: I was never arrested for burning the schools, I was only arrested for burning the house belonging to police.

MR JAMIE: So that was the one incident that you were arrested for?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR JAMIE: And then we know of another incident where you as you've testified you killed Pro Jack. Now how many other missions were there that you went on?

MR YEKWANI: Those that I know about, are you talking from 1990?

MR JAMIE: I'm talking about when you were an SDU member. Did you regularly go on these missions where you attempted to police as you testified?

MR YEKWANI: Those are the only missions that I know about.

MR JAMIE: So the only missions you ever went on where you attempted to hit police was the one time that you burnt the policeman's house and then the Pro Jack incident, is that your testimony?

MR YEKWANI: I did not count that as a mission, the one the Pro Jack's incident, I can say that was a mistake. Those that I can talk about was when hitting the police, shooting at the police and burning the house of the policeman and the incident in Khayelitsha.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I don't know if you can, but the question is how many of these type of incidents that you are referring to with attacks on the police you were engaged in as a member of the SDU, was this a frequent thing or just a few isolated incidents or what, just give us an idea?

MR YEKWANI: I would do it frequently if I want to and if my magazine is full of ammunition and I knew what to do just before it could be confiscated therefore I would go on a mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Jamie?

MR JAMIE: You'd been on these missions before?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now the particular motivation for the mission that evening which resulted in Pro Jack's death, you made mention of something concerning Mr Toyise. What was that again? Can you explain that?

MR YEKWANI: I said he was arrested, he was not present when we were making a decision to hit the police because we realised that the police were raiding our houses and arresting the people, that is what we were dissatisfied with.

MR JAMIE: So the evening of Pro Jack's death did you know that Mr Toyise had been arrested?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I knew.

MR JAMIE: Do you know, sir, that the police when they arrested him they confiscated weapons from him specifically an AK-47?

MR YEKWANI: I heard that an AK-47 rifle was confiscated, I know nothing about the other weapons.

MR JAMIE: And you've given that as one of the reasons why you decided to attack the police so that they wouldn't also confiscate your weapons, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now sir, don't you find it peculiar and strange that shortly before, this is according to the statement of Mr Toyise, shortly before his arrest and the confiscation of that AK-47 he was visited by a number of people who came to borrow the weapon, one of them being Pro Jack. Do you have any knowledge of that?

MR YEKWANI: No, I didn't know that, I was never told that by Mr Toyise.

MR JAMIE: But you would not have been told by Mr Toyise time of Pro Jack's death because Mr Toyise was still in jail, having been arrested, he only came out of jail after Pro Jack's killing.

MR YEKWANI: All I'm saying is that I have no idea about that, that people came to borrow the firearms.

MR JAMIE: You see I find it very strange and I put it to you it's incredulous to ask this Committee to believe that where Mr Pro Jack had come to borrow a weapon from Mr Toyise immediately before, in fact it seems to have been a day before this incident, and where you give us one of the reasons for wanting to attack the police that evening, the fact that Mr Toyise was arrested and you attack a vehicle and just coincidentally the person in the vehicle happens to be Mr Pro Jack? Isn't that a bit hard to believe Mr Yekwani?

MR YEKWANI: The reason was not only that Mr Toyise was arrested, that was not the only reason for us to go and hit the police. It is because of the other activities that the police were involved in, in the community.

MR JAMIE: That was one of the reasons, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And were you aware of rumours in the township afterwards that the reason Mr Jack was killed was because he was supposed to have told the police about the weapon at Mr Toyise's home, did you ever here a rumour to that effect?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not hear that information.

MR JAMIE: Were you ever a bodyguard of Mr Toyise, Mr Yekwani?

MR YEKWANI: I was not a bodyguard.

MR JAMIE: Did you ever work with Mr Toyise?

MR YEKWANI: What I used to Brown's Farm as a resident I was his subordinate.

MR JAMIE: You were his subordinate/

MR YEKWANI: I can say I was residing at his house but I was sleeping in a separate room and I told Mr Mkukuma that after coming from Transkei I do not want to stay at KTC, I wanted Mr Mkukuma to look for a certain place for me to stay therefore he went on and talked to Mr Toyise.

MR JAMIE: So the comrade you were talking about earlier at whose home you resided was Mr Toyise, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: I was staying in his house but not in the main house in the sense that I would go and eat at his house.

MR JAMIE: So you were staying on Mr Toyise's property if not in the same dwelling, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: The house was at a distance it was not even in his yard, the house that was arranged for me.

MR JAMIE: And you were very upset, sir, when Mr Toyise was arrested and his family members were arrested as well, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that's true and I was even angry before he was even arrested because of the things that were done by the police in the community. Just before his arrest I was even angrier.

MR JAMIE: Yes. sir you were asked some of these questions before. Now you must forgive me, I'm going to try not to ask you the same questions. The incident that evening you've said that you were standing, you and one of the people with you were standing under a tree and two other people were standing under another tree, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And you were facing Philippi.

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: You said you were waiting for a police vehicle to pass?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR JAMIE: And you in fact, you were expecting a Cantor vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct because that was the car that was used to transport more police.

MR JAMIE: The Cantor vehicle is not a sedan vehicle, it's actually almost a little mini-bus type vehicle, a higher than normal vehicle, is that not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes, we used to call it Umgomo because it was not a small van it was actually bigger than the other vehicles.

MR JAMIE: Bigger than the other vehicles and it's fairly distinctive looking, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes it is different and you can see it from a distance.

MR JAMIE: Now sir, just clarify something, you indicated in your statement somewhere that you were waiting for police coming from either Nyanga Police Station or Philippi, in fact that's what you said in your statement, paragraph 1?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now Philippi Police Station would be where in relation to where you were standing, sir?

MR YEKWANI: It was quite a distance because a police station is next to the railway station but the road was coming through to where I was from Philippi.

MR JAMIE: The vehicle driving toward you from Philippi Police Station would come down Lansdowne Road, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes it goes past Lansdowne Roads and to Nyanga East.

MR JAMIE: So it comes from Lansdowne Road, the police vehicle from Philippi?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: But now what about the police vehicle coming from the Nyanga Police Station, where would that come from, that wouldn't come from Lansdowne Road would it?

MR YEKWANI: It would come from a route that was actually visible from where I was, it is called Emms Drive.

MR JAMIE: To come from Emms Drive, so now you've said you were facing Lansdowne Road, you were looking in the direction of Philippi, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: That vehicle from Emms Road, so if a vehicle came from Emms Road it would come from behind you, not so? It would drive toward Lansdowne Road?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct but it would be visible.

MR JAMIE: That means if you were keeping watch for both the vehicle from Nyanga and or from Philippi you would have to both look behind you and in front of you, not so? You couldn't just look at Lansdowne Road?

MR YEKWANI: Yes but Emms Drive was on the other side but not at the back but Philippi was just in front of you.

MR JAMIE: Mr Chairperson, is this an appropriate time to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume you've still got some distance to go, Mr Jamie? Yes. We will take an adjournment at this stage and we will reconvene exactly at quarter to two, in forty five minutes time. So we will adjourn.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yekwani, you are reminded that you are still under oath, do you I understand?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI TEKWANI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Jamie?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JAMIE: (cont)

Mr Tekwani, I was dealing with the question whether or not you expected police to also come from Emms Road and you said that you were, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes.

MR JAMIE: And obviously you'd been on these missions before you testified so you knew that the police could in fact, according to you, they were waging war and they were attacking people so they could basically have come from anywhere, couldn't they, the police? The police patrol for instance, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: So you as a trained operative with your fellow persons who were there that evening must have been keeping watch as trained personnel do when you are on a mission, not so? You wouldn't be just looking in one direction?

MR YEKWANI: We were actually focusing on the route from Philippi and Nyanga Police Station.

MR JAMIE: Okay, now can you describe how you first noticed this vehicle, what was the vehicle doing when you first saw it, Pro Jack's vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: I did not see it when it was coming. When I turned the car was already there and I didn't get a chance to look at other things, I just turned and started firing.

MR JAMIE: So when you fired you didn't move towards the vehicle you turned and fired, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I didn't even move, I just turned and I started firing, I didn't even move.

MR JAMIE: Now until you turned and fired as you've testified, you as I understand your testimony you were not aware of the vehicle and didn't realise the vehicle was approaching, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: I didn't even hear it coming, I was told by a comrade next to me who told me that there was a car behind me.

MR JAMIE: Now you've also testified and you demonstrated in the court that where you were standing to the vehicle was about two to three vehicles to where you were sitting to where Advocate Bosman is sitting in front, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now sir, would you like to explain to the tribunal how it is that a vehicle with its lights on could approach you up to a distance of two to three metres and you are unaware of the vehicle, either the sound of the vehicle's engine or you also were unaware of the vehicle's lights, how is that possible, sir?

MR YEKWANI: I didn't hear the engine sound and even the lights of the vehicle, I didn't even see them because I was actually focusing on that road from Philippi Police Station and I was panicking because the time was moving on and I wasn't even sure that the van had moved or not.

MR JAMIE: So now you say also you were panicking because the time was moving on. You didn't testify to that effect before?

Is that correct, you didn't say that before?

MR YEKWANI: I was not looking from any other direction because I thought that if I lose focus I'm going to miss this van.

MR JAMIE: So is your evidence, sir, that you were so focused on Lansdowne Road that you didn't see a vehicle with its lights on come up to as close as two to three metres from you? Is that what you ask the tribunal to believe?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is the truth, I didn't hear the engine of the vehicle, I do not want to lie and say that and testify to that effect because if I heard the engine of the vehicle I could have seen the car without being told. Even the lights, I did not see them.

MR JAMIE: When you turned around and saw the car tell us what you saw? Did you realise it was a sedan vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: All that I realised when I was shooting at this car, I realised it was not a van but it was a private car.

MR JAMIE: You realised as you were shooting at the vehicle that it was not a van but a private car? Now what do you mean when you say a private car?

MR YEKWANI: This car is the - the private car to me is different from the police van, that is why I'm referring to it as a private car because it's different from the police van.

MR JAMIE: As you were shooting and you realised it was a private car who did you think might be in this private car?

Did you think it might be civilians?

MR YEKWANI: I thought there were police inside because I knew that they sometimes used their private cars.

MR JAMIE: So you thought it might be police because they sometimes used private cars, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Is it correct as you testified earlier that when you were shooting and when you ran away you were sure you had shot police? At one point in your evidence earlier ...(intervention)

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was certain that those were police because there's no one who could just leave the road and come to my direction as I was standing there.

MR JAMIE: Is that why you were sure they were police?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: For no other reason?

MR YEKWANI: No, there's no other reason except the reason that I have stated.

MR JAMIE: But now you made a statement to Mr Killian on the 13th August at these offices which you signed, is that correct, that's the statement that is I presume in front of you, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And is that your signature which appears on the last page thereof? Just the name Tembinkosi?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now in paragraph 9 of that statement you said the following that when you ran to the squatter camp in Brown's Farm you went to Michael's house where "we discussed what had happened" and then you said you say this

"I asked the others whose car it was that we had shot, whether it was the police or the detectives. None of us knew. At that stage we did not know who we had shot."

Do you want to explain that part of your statement, sir?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is true because no one knew the car but I was certain that those were the police though no one knew about it but I wanted to confirm with them if they knew that the people in that car were police.

MR JAMIE: But now how can you give that answer when your statement says "at that stage we did not know who we had shot", that includes you, you did not know who you'd shot according to your statement. Why are you now contradicting yourself under oath, sir?

MR YEKWANI: I am saying that because I was certain there is no on else who would come to me knowing very well that I'm armed and leave the road and come to where I was, that is why I said I was so certain that those were the police.

MR JAMIE: So are you saying you were not telling the truth or you were not being correct when you in this statement say that you did not know "we did not know who we had shot" and when you also say "none of us knew", that is not correct? Is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: We did not know, we only got that information the next day.

MR JAMIE: What information?

MR YEKWANI: Michael brought a newspaper with this information saying that Pro Jack was shot at Lansdowne Road.

MR JAMIE: So then you knew who had been shot but before that you thought it was, you were certain it was the police that you'd shot?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was sure on that night that I shot the policemen.

MR JAMIE: Now the impression you've given in this matter so far in your testimony is that you turned and shot, you didn't have an opportunity to observe anything, is that correct? You just turned and you began firing?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now in paragraph 7 of your statement you say that

"I looked behind me and saw the car. I pointed my gun at the window on the driver's side, I cannot remember whether the driver had rolled down his window or not. I also did not notice what the driver was doing inside the car. I saw that there were two people in the front of the car but I did not see whether there were people in the back of the car. I opened fire and shot the driver."

So it seems from the statement, sir, that there was some delay between you observing the vehicle and opening fire. Now is that correct or is it as you've testified here today that you turned and fired?

MR YEKWANI: What I'm saying is that this R4 rifle had a belt that I used to hang it over my shoulder and when I turned I was looking at the car and at the same time I was lifting up the firearm. I did all those things at the same time, I did it simultaneously, pointing the firearm at the car and looking at the car at the same time, lifting the firearm, it all happened at once.

MR JAMIE: Isn't it correct that when the driver pulled out to where you were standing he rolled down the window? Isn't that correct?

MR YEKWANI: He did not roll down the window at the time.

MR JAMIE: Are you sure of that?

MR YEKWANI: I don't what is it that he was doing in the car because I couldn't see clearly because the light of the vehicle was bright.

MR JAMIE: But now why do you say that he didn't roll down the window at that time when in your statement you said you can't remember whether he'd rolled down the window? Did you notice anything about the window at all, before you shot?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot say that he was not rolling down the window or he was doing just that, but what I'm saying is that I noticed that there were people inside the car but I did not take note of what people were doing inside the car.

MR JAMIE: Were they posing any threat whatsoever to you, the persons inside the vehicle when you opened fire? Was there any sign that they were threatening you, sir?

MR YEKWANI: My assumption when I was told that there was a car behind me, I thought that the people are coming to arrest me or shoot me.

MR JAMIE: Was there any signs, I'll ask the question again, that the people inside were posing a threat to you, inside the vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not wait for them to move but I just decided to shoot first so that I could get time to take cover and leave the scene, I couldn't wait for them to do anything.

MR JAMIE: When you opened fire they were posing no threat to you, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes they were still inside the car, there was no threat but they were still inside the car. I don't know what was happening in the car.

MR JAMIE: Now why, sir, were you determined to kill the driver specifically, that's what you say in your statement? You say in paragraph 8

"I wanted to make sure the driver was killed."

Why did you want to kill the driver?

MR YEKWANI: What was on my mind was about the distance from where we were and getting to the squatter camp for cover and I thought if the driver could escape without dying and drive the car and chase us we might be in danger therefore I decided to shoot the driver so that the car could be out of motion.

MR JAMIE: Now just let's test that, sir, you thought, you told us, that that was a car full of policemen, is that correct? Coming to arrest you or shoot you, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: The car was not full of policemen but I saw only two people occupying the very first seats of the car but I did not check if there was anyone at the back seat of the car.

MR JAMIE: You didn't know how many people were in the car, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: I just saw the two people who were in front.

MR JAMIE: Answer my question, you don't know and didn't know at the time how many people were in the car?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I did not know how many people were in the car at the time, the only people that I saw clearly, I saw the driver and the passenger. I did not know whether there were other people at the back of the car.

MR JAMIE: According to you those could have been policemen in the car and there could have been more than two, is that correct? Is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I thought that even the police, the driver himself was a policeman and any other person who would be inside, in that car would be a policeman.

MR JAMIE: And there could be more than two, correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes because I did not see at the back.

MR JAMIE: Now if there were policemen in the car and they were coming to arrest you or shoot you they'd all have guns, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And they'd all be able to shoot you, is that correct? Is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes if they get the opportunity they could have done that.

MR JAMIE: If they are not killed or disabled they'd all be able to shoot at you, correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct because they would be protecting themselves.

MR JAMIE: Now why under those circumstances was it only your intention to kill the driver, why did you not also make sure that you killed or disable the other passenger that you could see and why did you not make sure that any people in the back were also dead or disabled?

MR YEKWANI: I thought I was right because I did not only point at the driver, I tried to shoot at the passenger seat to the person who was occupying that seat.

MR JAMIE: You say you tried to shoot at the person in the passenger seat, how did you do that? Did you move over to his side of the vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not move, I only moved the firearm because I started shooting through the driver's window and the windscreen.

MR JAMIE: You started shooting through the driver's window and the windscreen but you didn't move to the passenger side?

MR YEKWANI: No I did not get there I was just controlling the firearm to point at that direction.

MR JAMIE: The evidence of Andile Jack who was in the vehicle with Pro Jack will be that when the firing started Pro pushed him under the dash board and covered him with his body?

MR YEKWANI: Who pushed him?

MR JAMIE: Pro pushed the passenger, Andile, under the dashboard and covered his body with his own body, with Pro's body?

MR YEKWANI: I did not see that happening because I was busy shooting, that's what I was doing.

MR JAMIE: And the boy only suffered superficial wounds, he was grazed by bullets?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot say anything about that.

MR JAMIE: Did you not see Pro pushing any other person down?

MR YEKWANI: No, when I was shooting I did not see that happening because even the windscreen there would be some flames or sparks rather, sparks on the window when I was shooting therefore I decided to shoot around the car so as to prevent them from getting out of the vehicle.

MR JAMIE: Now let's just understand what your evidence is, were you shooting to kill them or were you shooting to prevent them getting out of the vehicle?

MR YEKWANI: I was shooting to kill them and even those who tried to escape they would be hit and be killed because I was sure that if I do not shoot them we would be targets because we were in an open space.

MR JAMIE: Well then you must have been particularly inept because you didn't manage to hit the passenger at all if that was your intention?

MR YEKWANI: I can say that was a positive thing to have happened in that scene because it was not my intention to shoot those people as I did not know that they were comrades, I thought they were policemen. My aim when I was shooting on everyone in that car I was sure that I was shooting at the police.

MR JAMIE: But as my colleague asked you earlier and despite that being your intention you never came around to the driver's side nor did you check whether there was anyone in the back who could pose a threat to you, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: I did not check in the car for the other people. MR JAMIE: I'm going to give you another opportunity to explain why you didn't do that. Is there any reason why you did not do that?

MR YEKWANI: The reason for me not to inspect the car because I thought that I had shot everyone in that car because no one was coming out and now I was worried about the distance that we still have to cross the road and walk in the open space trying to get cover in the squatter camp therefore I thought that if we hesitate or delay we might be in danger.

MR JAMIE: Do you still maintain that you don't remember whether the others shot or not?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot say they did or not but I was only focusing on what I was doing and the firearm that I could hear was the one that was in my possession.

MR JAMIE: Andile's evidence will be that as they were driving down 1st Avenue which was parallel to Lansdowne Road, they saw a group of people on the open field and someone called "Nzonkwe, Nzonkwe" which was Pro's name and Pro then reversed the car and drove onto the field toward where you were standing, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: No one called from the people who were standing with me there, no one called for Pro Jack.

MR JAMIE: Okay, so none of you called him over to where you were standing under the trees, is that correct, on your evidence?

MR YEKWANI: If anyone did that I could have heard that because I was not far from them.

MR JAMIE: In other words none of you called him over?

MR YEKWANI: No, not from the people who were with me. No one from where we were called for him.

MR JAMIE: And this incident happened about 10 o'clock on a misty evening, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Andile's evidence will also be that he was his uncle's home watching videos that evening and his uncle Pro was busy taking him home, that was the purpose of Pro's trip, he was driving down to take the boy home. Can you dispute that?

MR YEKWANI: No I cannot dispute that.

MR JAMIE: Now if that is correct can you give this tribunal any reason if you or one of the others did not call Pro over and if he was on his way to drop the boy and didn't know who you were, why he would drive his vehicle onto the field up to where you were standing. Is there any reason why he would have done that, that you know of?

MR YEKWANI: No I do not want to lie, no one called for Pro and I do not even know the reason for him to go to where we were. I do not know the reason for that.

MR JAMIE: He had nothing to do with you people that evening, he wasn't part of your operation, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: He didn't know that you'd be standing there, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: That is correct.

MR JAMIE: So he would have as far as he is concerned there were some people standing under a tree but he was on his way taking his nephew home. I put it to you that under those circumstances there would have been no reason for him to drive right up to where you people were standing if you had not called him over?

MR YEKWANI: I don't want to lie to that effect and try and implicate people. No one called for him, if someone did that I could have heard. Perhaps I couldn't have fired at that moment because I knew that this person was coming to listen as he was called but that was not the case.

MR JAMIE: After this incident you've testified you people ran away back to Brown's Farm, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now you knew the next day that you'd killed Pro Jack, the very next day you knew that, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not know but I only got that information as I was reading the paper that was brought by Michael.

MR JAMIE: When you read the paper you knew you'd killed Pro Jack, correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now why didn't you raise it with some or other of the structures of the ANC, to told them "I'm sorry, we were on a mission but we made a mistake and we killed Pro Jack". You say you spoke to Mr Langa. Now Mr Langa ...(intervention)

MR YEKWANI: If Mr Langa had instructed me to tell the people of the organisation I could have done that but I did what he told me to do, he told me to keep quiet about this, he would find some means or strategy to try and get the people and tell them about the incident.

MR JAMIE: Did you regard yourself as a disciplined member of the ANC?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that's I knew about myself and even when it comes to protecting the people I thought I was doing the right thing.

MR JAMIE: Now if you were a disciplined member of the ANC why didn't you report to the ANC structures, to your own commander, Gladstone Ntamo or to one of the other ANC office bearers in the area?

MR YEKWANI: I knew that eventually the information will come up because I had told Mr Langa and the ANC lawyers what I was waiting for was to be called, that's all.

MR JAMIE: So didn't you find it strange when the ANC asked you to guard the Jack home during the funeral preparations because the ANC thought that the police had been responsible for Pro's killing? Didn't you find that very strange?

MR YEKWANI: To me it was not strange because I knew that they were not aware of that and even the firearm that was to be used when guarding the premises was the one that was me, that is why I decided it's a good thing for me to go there.

MR JAMIE: I don't understand that answer? The firearm that you used in the killing of Pro Jack you used to guard the house, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And why do you say that was a good idea or good thing?

MR YEKWANI: I was feeling very sorry, that did not imply that I cannot go there if I was asked but I knew that they were not aware of the killer, the person who killed Pro.

MR JAMIE: So you, the killer, pretended to guard the house of the deceased's family, you watched them grieving and mourning for him and you knew all the time that you were the person responsible but you didn't bother to tell them or the ANC and the ANC was also responsible for guarding and arranging for the funeral and guarding the house. So you fooled everyone and you pretended to be guarding the house?

MR YEKWANI: I knew that during the prayers had already told Mr Langa about the incident. When they asked me I knew that after some time the ANC would get to know and their family would get that information.

MR JAMIE: Mr Langa I understand is now dead, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: He can't corroborate what you're saying, can he?

MR YEKWANI: He can confirm that because I told him about the incident because even the other comrades got that from Mr Langa.

MR JAMIE: Well Mr Langa, perhaps one thing to confirm but can't, can he and there's no - are there any witnesses, Mr Yekwani, who are going to come to this tribunal to confirm what you are saying? What about the people who were with you that evening, are they going to come and testify in support of your application?

MR YEKWANI: They can come if it's easy to get them they can confirm what I'm saying. The comrades then can say that he got that information from Mr Langa. I'm not the one who told him.

MR JAMIE: It would be interesting to see who testifies and corroborates your evidence, sir. You were asked by a number of people in the ANC, in the ANC's structures. In fact it went as high as Chris Hani but also Gladstone Ntamo, Mzwale Jacobs who was investigating the matter, they all asked you about this and you've described yourself as a disciplined ANC member and you denied to all of them that you were involved. Why did you do that?

MR YEKWANI: This incident to me, it was not easy for me to relate. I was frightened but at the same time I was advised by Mr Langa not to talk about this because he was the one who was prepared to tell the people about the incident.

MR JAMIE: When did Mr Langa die, sir?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot remember the year but if I'm not mistaken I think it was in 1994.

MR JAMIE: So it was some three years after this incident, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: I am not certain about the year but I am just assuming.

MR JAMIE: It was a long time after this incident that he died?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct but after I had told him.

MR JAMIE: And even after he died you didn't tell the ANC about what had happened?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not tell the ANC because I knew that telling the lawyers was enough and they were going to inform the ANC because I knew that the statement would still be there.

MR JAMIE: Sir I just want to go back to part of your evidence this morning and just ask you something about it. You said and in cross-examination from Mr Williams you said well you didn't regard Gladstone Ntamo as a commander in the battlefield, is that correct? Is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I said I did not take him as a commander when I was going to fight.

MR JAMIE: But in your evidence in chief this morning you said you were asked by your attorney what was Mr Ntamo's role and you said he was a community leader. The SDUs regarded him as the commander, that was your answer, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And he was also the person from whom you got your weapons, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now when you were asked if you embarked on a mission did you tell Ntamo or the other commanders your answer was no, you would just tell him that you were going to patrol, that's what you would tell him?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: You wouldn't tell him you were going to go on a mission and attack police, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: There was no need for me to tell him that I was going to attack the police. He knew that whenever I need a firearm I'm going to attack the police.

MR JAMIE: So you're saying that when you went to Mr Ntamo and you said well "I want a firearm" and he said "what for?" and your answer was "I want to patrol" that was almost a code and he understood that what you meant was you were going to attack the police, is that your evidence?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now why was it necessary that you and he as the commander and you had this code, why didn't you just tell him "well, as you know I'm going to attack the police"? Why was it necessary to tell him "I'm going to patrol" and then he knew you were going to attack the police? Can you explain that?

MR YEKWANI: When I am patrolling in the Black areas or townships when the police come the situation would depend. If the police come and I would just attack that was my definition of a patrol.

MR JAMIE: So in every patrol if you saw police you would attack them? Is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: > But then in eight years of being an SDU member you only could tell us of two attacks so how do you explain that?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I can say only two times, only two incidents, ...(indistinct) incidents where people died but in other attacks people did not die.

MR JAMIE: So you'll attack the police on a regular basis but you only killed people twice, is that your evidence?

MR YEKWANI: I used to attack police all the time if I see them and only if I am armed.

MR JAMIE: Now you were asked why did you not tell your commanders before a commission - I'm sorry, you were asked whether you didn't tell the commanders that you were going to attack the police and you said not before a mission and then you were asked, "well, why not?" and you said you were scared the police would be waiting for you. Do you remember that question and that answer?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: So in other words, what you're telling this tribunal is that you were scared that if you told Gladstone Ntamo that you were going to attack the police he or someone else might tell the police and they'd be waiting for you, that's the effect of your evidence, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was also following the policy of the unit that if you are discussing about a certain mission that was going to be taken, a person who is not involved in the mission should not know anything about it.

MR JAMIE: What I find difficult to understand is how you could have those reservations about Ntamo when he was the very person who had to give you the guns in the first place? He kept the weapons, you had to trust him because he had the weapons, surely?

MR YEKWANI: Yes he knew when he gave me the firearm he knew that I was going to attack the police.

MR JAMIE: So he knew you were going to attack the police but then the answer that you gave is in any event misleading because you were asked why didn't you tell your commander and said well you didn't because the police might be waiting for you but if he knew that you were going to attack the police then that answer doesn't make sense, does it?

MR YEKWANI: I never used to tell him, I would tell him only after the mission. I wouldn't tell him straight that I was going to attack the police but he was aware that whenever I mentioned the word patrol I'm referring to attacking the police.

MR JAMIE: Well okay, maybe Mr Ntamo will come and tell us about that. Sir, I put it to you that your evidence before this tribunal has been a tissue of lies, you're not telling the truth?

MR JAMIE: All I'm saying is that I am telling the truth and I could not call the Truth Commission and Pro Jack's family knowing very well that I'm going to tell lies. If it had happened the other way around or perhaps I was instructed by people from other organisations or from the then government, I was going to reveal their names here, I have nothing to hide.

MR JAMIE: I put it to you that you killed Pro Jack knowing who you were killing, you intended to kill him?

MR YEKWANI: No, I did not know the comrade I hadn't seen him before.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, we are trying to concentrate on what is being said here, please don't interfere in the proceedings. Carry on?

MR YEKWANI: I did not know the comrade, all I knew was that I only knew Buyiswa Jack because I had known him from 1986 as our property was then down at KTC. He used to go to the churches visiting the people who were victims. That is how I got to know him. He used to go to KTC even in 1987. There's no other person that I knew from his family.

MR JAMIE: And you killed him for reasons that you know which you're not telling this tribunal. Whether they had to do with revenge because of something concerning Mr Toyise or because of the taxi violence that was going on and where Pro was trying to make peace between the different groups, you know the reason and that is why you killed him?

MR YEKWANI: I am saying if there were other reasons except this mistake that I'm talking about, I was going to reveal that I was going to say it as it happened and if I was instructed I was going to reveal that I have nothing to hide.

MR JAMIE: And what really happened that evening is Andile will testify which is they were driving down 1st Avenue, you or one of the others called Nzonkwe, Nzonkwe. Pro reversed his car drove towards you to find out what you wanted, rolled down his window and you then shot him numerous times, killing him?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot comment about that. I didn't even know his name I only got to know his name when I saw it written in some newspaper that I read. Even this name Pro, I did not know him. I am not lying when I say I did not know him.

MR JAMIE: I put it to you further sir, that even on your own version of what happened you shouldn't get amnesty from this tribunal?

MR YEKWANI: If it's what the tribunal sees as the right thing to do, I cannot say no.

MR JAMIE: I want to give you an opportunity to comment because I'm going to argue in due course that you shouldn't get amnesty on, among others, the following grounds. You used excessive violence, you made no opportunity to make sure that it was police that you were firing at?

MR YEKWANI: When I turned I knew in my mind that I was shooting at the police, I did not give myself an opportunity to check further after turning. All was on my mind was shooting.

MR JAMIE: And what you did was totally out of proportion to your supposed objective that evening considering that it was an innocent person involved?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I agree, it was not the right thing to do but on my side it was a mistake and a very bad mistake in the eyes of the community.

MR JAMIE: Just one other thing, you testify that none of you were wearing balaclavas that evening but you said that you were wearing a long coat, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Andile will say that you or the people who fired including you wore balaclavas?

MR YEKWANI: I disagree with that because I do not know how did he manage to see the people who were outside the car while he was inside the car.

MR JAMIE: I have no further questions for this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JAMIE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Jamie. Ms Patel have you any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Yekwani, you stated in response to a question from my learned colleague, Mr Williams, that your right to legal representation wasn't explained to you when our investigator, Mr Killian, approached you. Do you stand by that response?

MR YEKWANI: Will you please repeat your question?

MS PATEL: When Mr Killian approached you, our investigator who is sitting next to me, when he approached you for the first time, you stated in response to a question from Mr Williams here that your right to legal representation wasn't explained to you. Is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: No one explained anything to me to that effect.

MS PATEL: That's not true, not so, Mr Yekwani? In fact not only was it explained to you but they took you to your attorney before this statement was taken from you. What is your comment on that?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is true and I was also present when that happened.

MS PATEL: Okay, so your right to legal representation was then explained to you?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was told that I should get a legal representative arranged by the State.

MS PATEL: But they took you to your attorney, the name of the attorney wasn't suggested to you, not so? In fact they took you to Mr Wilkinson from the same firm as Mr Joshua?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: And furthermore you were not pressurised into making this statement, you made that statement voluntarily, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and your application was tendered to us, your amnesty application was tendered to us some time after the statement was in fact taken from you, not so?

MR YEKWANI: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Thank you. Just to move onto one or two other points. What was your combat name?

MR YEKWANI: They used to call me Terror.

MS PATEL: Was that at any stage changed to Joe?

MR YEKWANI: Yes it was changed when I arrived at Brown's Farm.

MS PATEL: Okay and was that after you had received your training up in Butterworth?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and at the time that you came back were you under the command of Mr Toyise?

MR YEKWANI: I only went to Mr Toyise looking for a shelter, I did not want to stay at KTC because I wanted to work at KTC at that police station, the nearest police station at KTC so I wanted to carry my missions and go back to Brown's Farm.

MS PATEL: Are you saying Mr Toyise was unaware of your involvement in the SDUs?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I can say so because he was seeing me for the first time when Mr Mbukumo went there to ask him to provide him with shelter. I used to hear about him during those times when there is something is called Nyanga Bush but I hadn't seen him with my own eyes.

MS PATEL: Okay, the reason I ask you these questions is Mr Ntamo made a statement to us, it's on page 16 of the bundle, Honourable Chairperson, it's paragraph 4 and let me just read to you what Mr Ntamo said to us. He says

"When Terror returned from Transkei he was deployed at Brown's Farm squatter camp and under the command of Mr Toyise and his combat name was Joe. While Terror was under the command of Mr Toyise he once again came to take the firearm from him to carry out patrols."

But the gist of what I want you to hear is that Mr Ntamo says you were in fact under the command of Mr Toyise when you came back from training? Is Mr Ntamo lying to us or has he made a mistake or what is the position?

MR YEKWANI: I can say that it's how they regarded the position but with me that was not the case because when it comes to the missions I wouldn't include him and he didn't even know anything about my activities when it comes to attacking the police. I never used to include him in my missions.

MS PATEL: Sorry, what did you mean when you said there that is how they might have seen it, is that what you said?

MR YEKWANI: It is because if they would see me staying at Brown's Farm it could have happened that he was a commander but the only commander that I used to recognise was the one who would be in my unit, the one who would be involved in the operation with me, that is the only commander that I can recognise.

MS PATEL: Was Mr Toyise not a commander at that time?

MR YEKWANI: Not in the SDUs, I knew him as a community leader not in the SDUs.

MS PATEL: Alright perhaps Mr Toyise will give us the true position later. Then furthermore, after the killing of Pro Jack, were you ever approached by Dumusani Lupengelo of the ANC security desk? This is a few days after the funeral?

MR YEKWANI: The only person that I can think of Mzandwile Jacobs, I cannot remember seeing anyone except that.

MS PATEL: And Mr Dan Nkwatcho?

MR YEKWANI: Dan was a comrade who was with me when I was going to the lawyers to make a statement.

MS PATEL: Do you know whether Dan Nkwatcho knew Comrade Langa? Is he the one who arranged ...(intervention)

MR YEKWANI: Yes he knew him because we were working together even in the firm.

MS PATEL: Okay. Now you say you were involved in the killing or in one other killing incident besides this one, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct, in Khayelitsha, that's where the incident took place.

MS PATEL: Who did you report this to?

MR YEKWANI: I reported it after the incident and I told Mr Ntamo about this.

MS PATEL: Who did you tell about this?

MR YEKWANI: Mr Ntamo.

MS PATEL: Okay and did this incident that you are speaking of now take place before the murder of Pro Jack?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and is it correct that as a result or subsequent to that incident you were then sent away for training?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. Now if you had taken Mr Ntamo into your confidence with that incident, why did you not report back to him with this incident that you are now applying for amnesty?

MR YEKWANI: I was forced to tell him about that incident because after using the firearm in Khayelitsha I was forced to leave it at Khayelitsha and I had to tell him that I left the firearm at Khayelitsha so they should devise some means to go and fetch the firearm.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, sir, I don't understand your response. Are you saying that you in fact told him that you were involved in this killing?

MR YEKWANI: Are you talking about the Khayelitsha incident?

MS PATEL: No, no, the Pro Jack, the killing of Pro Jack.

MR YEKWANI: Yes I was present, I'm the perpetrator there and Mr Ntamo was not there.

MS PATEL: No let's just - I think perhaps you are confused. Let's just take this one incident at a time, the Khayelitsha Police incident, you went and reported to Mr Ntamo, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I told him after the operation.

MS PATEL: Okay. Now my question to you is after the killing of Mr Jack did you report to Mr Ntamo?

MR YEKWANI: No.

MS PATEL: Why not?

MR YEKWANI: It was not easy for me to go on telling the people about what I did. I was very frightened about this incident and I was also following what Mr Langa had told me before that to tell the people because that would cause more problems with me even if I had tried to explain it no one would understand it therefore he told me to take a pause and wait for him to tell the people.

MS PATEL: And that never happened for years, not so? Mr Langa never told anybody for very many years and then he died?

MR YEKWANI: At least I know that when we went to the lawyers I knew that nothing would be hidden forever though it took time to be heard by the people but I knew that it will eventually come to the ears of the people.

MS PATEL: Okay. You say that Mr Langa died in 1994 more or less?

MR YEKWANI: I'm not sure about the year but I think it was in 1994 or 1995, I'm not sure.

MS PATEL: Okay and after that you were satisfied with leaving matters as they were because you had told Mr Joshua about this incident?

MR YEKWANI: I was not that satisfied because the other people were not told about the incident like the ANC organisation and Pro Jack's family. I had only made a statement to the lawyers.

MS PATEL: Why didn't you go back to the lawyers, sir, after they didn't get back to you, why didn't you take the initiative if it concerned you so much, why didn't you go back to them and say look, what is happening? Especially after Mr Langa had died?

MR YEKWANI: I tried to talk to Mr Wilkinson because when Mr Langa passed away I was in Pretoria, that was during the integration period and at the time I was still in Pretoria, I would come only month end therefore I did not get a chance to do that but when I came and when I was staying in Wynberg I went to Mr Wilkinson and enquired about that, this incident.

MS PATEL: When was that? When did you go back to Mr Wilkinson to enquire about this incident?

MR YEKWANI: It was in 1996.

MS PATEL: Mr Joshua had passed away by then, not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can I just ask you, you say when you were standing at the tree that you were facing Philippi, the direction of Philippi when Tobani said to you ...(intervention)

MR YEKWANI: Correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, is that not the direction in which the vehicle of Mr Jack was coming from?

MR YEKWANI: No.

MS PATEL: Alright. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you'll just grant me a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: Sorry, thank you Honourable Chairperson. Just finally, just in fairness to put to you what Mr Ntamo said about your involvement with Dan Nkwatcho, you say to us that Dan Nkwatcho knew almost from the inception about this incident whereas Mr Ntamo has statement in his ...(intervention)

MR YEKWANI: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Can I just finish what I want to say before you respond please? Thank you. Whereas Mr Ntamo has stated in a statement to us that Mr Nkwatcho also approached you and he says he presumes that Mr Nkwatcho was investigating the death of Pro Jack. Would you like to comment on that statement to us?

MR YEKWANI: As far as I'm concerned I knew that Daniel Nkwatcho was told by Mr Langa because Mr Langa had told me that I was going back to the lawyers to make a statement.

MS PATEL: And Dan was also the one who sat in on the consultation with you, not so, with the lawyer?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SIGODI: Who told you to go and guard the deceased's home?

MR YEKWANI: Mr Ntamo told me to do that.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know why he chose you?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I can say the reason for him to do that is because the firearm was still in my possession and he knew very well that I'm using that firearm or I am able to use that firearm.

ADV SIGODI: At this time were you employed during this incident?

MR YEKWANI: No I was unemployed.

ADV SIGODI: It was put to you that one of the possibilities why you killed Mr Jack was because of taxi violence. Do you know how you could possibly be linked with taxi violence?

MR YEKWANI: That issue was far away from me and I did not want to hear a thing about that because I was none of the taxi owners that is why I did not want to involve myself in the taxi violence.

ADV SIGODI: You never drove any taxis for anybody?

MR YEKWANI: No, not at all.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me, is there a road which links the Lansdowne Road and the Emms Drive?

MR YEKWANI: Yes you can go up with Emms Drive, you can drive to Emms Drive until you get to Philippi.

ADV SIGODI: Yes but is there a short cut between Lansdowne Road and Emms Drive that goes through the - that is not a tarred road or where the cars can go, that is through the grass, is there a road like that?

MR YEKWANI: A shortcut?

ADV SIGODI: That links Lansdowne Road and Emms Road, that where you can drive through the grass or the bush?

MR YEKWANI: No except for Emms Drive that is coming from Nyanga East to Lansdowne Road, that intersect at Lansdowne Road from where we were.

ADV SIGODI: No, what I'd like to get clear in my mind is how did the deceased approach you from behind in such a way that you could not see him and you only saw him in such a way that you did not see the lights and you only saw him when somebody pointed him out to you and he was just about two metres away from you? How did that happen?

MR YEKWANI: I cannot say how did he come because I was just told there was a car behind me. If I had seen the car I could have tried to run away perhaps.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Riley, re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RILEY: Thank you Chairperson.

I just want to ascertain, Mr Yekwani, one or two aspects. Mr Dan Nkwatcho, do you know where he presently finds himself?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I did see him here at this tribunal.

MR RILEY: So he is available then to confirm what you've said about your visit to the lawyer?

MR YEKWANI: I'm not sure if he is still present but when I came he was in here.

MR RILEY: But he would be able to confirm what you said about the visit to the lawyer and what happened there because a lot of what has been said here is that you weren't telling the ANC what had happened that clearly Mr Nkwatcho and Mr Langa were senior people within the ANC structures and one would therefore assume that if you went with him to a lawyer that the ANC would be notified about what had happened? So he would be able to tell us?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: Now the other aspect that I want to clarify with you is just to get it totally cleared out of the way, you were not aware that the TRC had an investigative unit or in fact were themselves investigating for example certain killings of political figures like for example Mr Pro Jack. You were not aware of that, were you?

MR YEKWANI: Yes I only got to know that when Mr Mark Killian came to me.

MR RILEY: And that was in fact the circumstances under which Mr Killian approached you, to enquire from you whether you knew anything about the death of Mr Pro Jack, is that correct?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: But up until that stage you had assumed that if I understand your evidence correctly that the lawyers and all the people who knew about the incident would in fact make arrangements that the issue be disclosed to all the relevant people?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: So as far as you were concerned, you had notified people about what had happened? It wasn't a situation where you were totally silent, no one knew what had happened, people knew but people were obviously not speaking?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct like Mr Langa and the lawyers told them.

MR RILEY: And Mr Nkwatcho according to your evidence?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: Just one other aspect, one of the tribunal members did raise it with you, the issue that you had in fact guarded the house, that did in fact happen, I mean you guarded the house but it is also true that you were in fact instructed to guard the house, is that not so?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: But you couldn't very well refuse to in fact guard the house in those circumstances, you really didn't have a choice quite frankly?

MR YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: Thank you Honourable Chair, I have no further questions at this time.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RILEY

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, two questions came out under cross-examination which I would like to address with your permission and the Committee's?

CHAIRPERSON: Under cross-examination where Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: When my colleague Advocate Ismail cross-examined the applicant as well as Ms Patel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is it matters of import?

MR WILLIAMS: It might become relevant later if I decide to call Mr Ntamo as a witness so the one is a statement that I want to put to the witness and the other one is a question I want to ask him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well sincerely hoping that we will stick to the real issues in this matter and that is the amnesty application before us. I appreciate that there are many, many unanswered questions and rumours and everything else, you know, but eventually we have an amnesty application before us which we have to decide in terms of the law and you know, one trusts that that is what we will be doing here.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I'm completely at your hands but it's issues which might affect Mr Ntamo later.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, no we accept your word in that regard. I just thought it's perhaps ...(indistinct) that we make these few remarks. I'll allow you to, you say there's two issues that you want to deal with?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yekwani, I've allowed the lawyer, Mr Williams, he says that there are some points that he didn't deal with when he questioned you earlier that came up in your evidence when you were questioned by some of the other lawyers which he wants to deal with. I'm going to allow him to do that, he says it's just two limited issues so he'll ask you further questions. Yes Mr Williams?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Sir, Mr Ntamo denies that you told him that you killed a policeman in Khayelitsha and he further denies that that is the reason why you were sent for training to Transkei. Do you want to comment on that?

MR YEKWANI: I think that was the only reason for me to go and get the training but I did also tell him about this incident that involved the killing, the shooting of the police because the incident took place at about 5 in the morning. I met him on my way to KTC and I had told him that the firearm that I was using is left in Khayelitsha and I also told him that I shot the police.

MR WILLIAMS: As I've said he denies that. The second question is you said earlier under cross-examination that Mr Ntamo knew that you were going to attack the police. Did you assume that you know or did he actually tell you that he knew that you were going to attack the police?

MR YEKWANI: When I asked for a firearm from him there was nothing else I could do with the firearm except attacking the police.

MR WILLIAMS: But you're perfectly aware that at the time, at that time the ANC had ceased its armed operations and that the SDUs were called in to intervene merely for defensive purposes? Sorry, to protect the community and not go on the offensive?

MR RILEY: Mr Chairperson, is this not new evidence at this time that is being presented now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it could be Mr Riley but perhaps you know it's not such a wide ranging issue, it's not the first time that this Panel hears about SDUs and their purpose so you know even the name sort of gives away the purpose so perhaps you know your client could, if he can help us with that, perhaps just respond to that?

Mr Yekwani what is being put to you is that the self defence units were really established to protect and defend the community, in other words you were defending people and was not so much to attack but rather to defend. Now how would you understand it?

MR YEKWANI: Protecting or defending the people can be different in so many ways and even when it comes to police you cannot wait for police to attack because we knew very well that when the police come to our communities they were going to shoot. Just by merely seeing a person, I wanted to shoot that policeman because of the activities that they were involved in though nothing was said more about the armed struggle but all the things that the police did caused some dissatisfaction in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Yekwani, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Riley, is there any further evidence?

MR RILEY: Mr Chairperson, at this time there's no further evidence from Mr Yekwani's side.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So that would be his case?

MR RILEY: That is effectively his case at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Mr Riley.

MR RILEY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Toyise you've listened to the evidence that Mr Yekwani gave to us? You've heard what he said?

MR TOYISE: Yes that is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is there anything that you want to put to us, is there any evidence that you want to give to us that you want to present in this application? If so then I'm going to give you an opportunity now before I go to the other parties.

MR TOYISE: Chairperson, concerning his application I feel like I'm not implicated because what he is talking about now I know nothing about it because I was in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so there's nothing further that you want to say about this case?

MR TOYISE: I have nothing to say because I do not see anything that implicates me in his testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Toyise. Mr Williams, I'm just going to go down the line, it makes little difference, practically speaking. Is there any evidence that you are going to tender?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I would actually suggest that Mr Jamie be given a chance to first present his witnesses because it seems as if on paper as if some of my clients are being mentioned by some of his clients.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well let's enquire then from Mr Jamie. What evidence had you had in mind to present Mr Jamie?

MR JAMIE: Mr Chairperson, I intend calling Andile Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the passenger?

MR JAMIE: That is the passenger.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Was that the only witness?

MR JAMIE: At the moment yes but again it depends on I suppose what comes out of cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: I'd also like an opportunity if I'm going to be asked to present my case now to perhaps consider after Andile's testified whether I want to call any other further witnesses?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: So perhaps it could stand down then to tomorrow if I need to make a final decision in that regard?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: But I'm happy to call Andile now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we just want to assess where we are and where we're heading bearing in mind what I've said earlier. In the light of that Mr Williams and in the light of what Mr Jamie says, that at this stage he really only intends to call the passenger. Now does that testimony implicate any of your clients at all?

MR WILLIAMS: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Would you be in a better position to decide your situation once you've heard the testimony of the passenger?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, because then it might not even be necessary for me to call witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I appreciate that. Yes, Mr Jamie, you said that you could actually present Mr Jack's testimony then? Yes, very well. Is it Mr Andile Jack, if he can come forward?

And I don't know where he's going to sit, perhaps you must just make place for him to get behind the microphone? Yes, we just want to rearrange the microphones. Just a minute? Mr Jack, do you hear the interpretation, just give us an indication?

MR JACK: Yes I can hear it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

ANDILE JACK: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR JAMIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Andile, could you tell the tribunal what your relationship was to Pro Jack?

MR JACK: Pro Jack was my uncle and he wanted to take me to school, support me and do everything that I needed.

MR JAMIE: Did you lived with him?

MR JACK: No I was not staying with him in the same house I was staying with my mother but whenever I need anything my mum would send me to him.

MR JAMIE: To Pro?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct. When I needed something that was need from school, I would go and talk to him.

MR JAMIE: Okay. Now the evening that he was killed, do you remember that evening?

MR JACK: Yes I still remember that.

MR JAMIE: How old would you have been then?

MR JACK: I was very young, I think I was fourteen years old.

MR JAMIE: Okay. Now where were you that evening?

MR JACK: Are you talking about the night of the incident?

MR JAMIE: Yes.

MR JACK: I was in the car.

MR JAMIE: Before that where had you been?

MR JACK: We were in the house watching TV and he was actually taking me home.

MR JAMIE: So you had been at Pro's house watching TV and he was now taking you home, right?

MR JACK: I was not in his house, but I was at his home, I was there with - my grandmother was also there.

MR JAMIE: Okay. Now he was taking you home, was it just the two of you in the car?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct. No one else was in the car except the two of us.

MR JAMIE: When you left the house about what time was it?

MR JACK: When we left the house it was after 9, before 10.

MR JAMIE: Do you remember what the weather was like that evening?

MR JACK: There was mist.

MR JAMIE: Okay, now when you left the house you got into Pro's car, can you tell the tribunal what sort of car that was?

MR JACK: It was a Golf, it was grey in colour.

MR JAMIE: Grey in colour. Okay now in what road did you drive when you left the house?

MR JACK: We left the house, we approached a corner towards 1st Avenue. As he was going to turn the car and drop me home.

MR JAMIE: Okay so you turned left into 1st Avenue, is that correct?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now 1st Avenue is a narrow road that runs parallel to Lansdowne Road which is a big dual carriageway?

MR JACK: Yes it's just next to the houses.

MR JAMIE: And it's, yes it's next to the houses. That is 1st Avenue and that's the road you were driving in?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now that road, you were driving toward the intersection of 1st Avenue and Emms Road, is that correct, which is another main road running down toward Nyanga?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And in fact there is an open space with trees between Lansdowne Road and 1st Avenue and that would have been on your right as you're driving towards Emms Road?

MR JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: Okay, it would make more sense if I drew it for you but then perhaps I should just rather explain it to make it a bit easier. You were driving in 1st Avenue and you would come to a stop street, is that correct, and that would be where Emms Road is?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And if you turn right from that stop street you would come into Lansdowne Road?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And if you turn left you would go down toward Nyanga East Police Station?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Right, now in that road, 1st Avenue, you came to the stop street. Which way were you going to go to get to your house that evening? Right or left?

MR JACK: We were going to take the Emms down road because we were not going up.

MR JAMIE: Sorry, you were going to take the what road? The Emms Drive road?

MR JACK: Yes, we were going to use the Emms Drive.

MR JAMIE: So you were going to turn left, is that correct?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: You were not going to go toward Philippi or toward Lansdowne Road?

MR JACK: No, we were not aiming to go towards Philippi.

MR JAMIE: Okay now as you drove down 1st Avenue could you tell the tribunal what happened, as Pro drove down 1st Avenue, what happened?

MR JACK: As we were driving down 1st Avenue he told me that there were people who were calling him and I heard them calling, saying Nzonkwe and then he stopped the car at the stop sign.

MR JAMIE: So did you hear people calling Nzonkwe?

MR JACK: Yes I heard them and he also told me that there were people calling him.

MR JAMIE: So you then stopped at the stop street, what then happened?

MR JACK: We stopped there, after stopping there he actually reversed and went there straight under the trees.

MR JAMIE: So you say he reversed and then went straight under the trees. When he drove under the trees was he still reversing or how did he get under the trees?

MR JACK: He stopped the car and after that he went there under the tree. He took a route that was going there under the trees.

MR JAMIE: So what you mean is that he from the stop street reversed and then he drove forward under the trees, is that correct?

MR JACK: He reversed the car from the stop sign and stopped and then he went straight, he proceeded to a spot under the trees because he wanted to go to the people who were calling him.

MR JAMIE: Okay, did he have his lights on?

MR JACK: Yes the lights were on.

MR JAMIE: What could you see as he drove under the trees, could you see anything?

MR JACK: I saw people standing and then he rolled down the window trying to talk to those people.

MR JAMIE: Pro rolled down the window to talk to them?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: How many people could you see?

MR JACK: I saw three people.

MR JAMIE: Could you describe them?

MR JACK: I cannot describe them because I did not see their faces because it was misty on that day.

MR JAMIE: It was misty, was there any other reason why you could not see their faces?

MR JACK: They were wearing some things like balaclavas when I saw them.

MR JAMIE: And those were covering their faces?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: What then happened after Pro rolled down the window?

MR JACK: They just turned and shot at us, they never uttered a thing.

MR JAMIE: They didn't say a thing, they just shot?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: What happened to you?

MR JACK: When he saw the firearm he pushed me.

MR JAMIE: Are you talking about Pro now?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: When he saw the firearm he pushed you, where did he push you?

MR JACK: He pushed me under the dashboard.

MR JAMIE: And what then happened?

MR JACK: I got under the dashboard and the firing started.

MR JAMIE: Do you know how many shots there were?

MR JACK: No I do not know but the shooting took some time.

MR JAMIE: How did you feel or sorry, not how did you feel, what did you think was going to happen to you there?

MR JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: What did you think was going to happen to you when the firing began?

MR JACK: I thought they were going to talk to him first.

MR JAMIE: Do you remember for how long the shooting went on?

MR JACK: It could have been ten to twenty minutes, I'm not sure.

MR JAMIE: When the shooting stopped, what did you do?

MR JACK: He pushed me under the dashboard.

MR JAMIE: When the shooting stopped, what did you do?

MR JACK: I also tried to push myself under, I also tried to get under the dashboard.

MR JAMIE: Sorry, I'm talking about when the shooting stopped. What did you do?

MR JACK: As they were pointing the firearm at us that is when he pushed me under the dashboard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jack, after the all that, after the shooting stopped, what did you do, did you run home, what did you do? Did you stay in the car, did you get out, did you run home, did you go tell your mother, what did you do?

MR JACK: I opened the door and I got out of the car and I ran to my home.

MR JAMIE: And did you tell them what had happened?

MR JACK: When I got into the house they enquired, they wanted to know what was happening and I told them that we were being shot at and they wanted to know if he was still alive and I told them that he was alive. I was a bit unconscious, I was a bit confused.

MR JAMIE: So you were a bit confused. Were you injured? Had you been hurt?

MR JACK: Yes I was injured.

MR JAMIE: Where and how were you injured?

MR JACK: My chest.

MR JAMIE: In your chest, yes, and anywhere else?

MR JACK: I had wounds, I had sustained some wounds at my back.

MR JAMIE: Your back as well? Did you go back to the scene that evening?

MR JACK: Yes I went back with the other people to show them where the incident took place.

MR JAMIE: And what did you see when you got back?

MR JACK: I found out he was dead.

MR JAMIE: Was his body still in the car?

MR JACK: Yes his body was still in the car.

MR JAMIE: Were you taken to hospital that evening?

MR JACK: Yes I was taken to hospital.

MR JAMIE: And how long were you kept in hospital?

MR JACK: I think it was plus minus two hours.

MR JAMIE: So you were discharged the same evening?

MR JACK: Yes I was discharged.

MR JAMIE: What standard were you in at school at that time, at the time of the incident?

MR JACK: I think I was doing standard four.

MR JAMIE: How did this incident affect you if at all?

MR JACK: I couldn't perform well even at school, I would still feel like I was hearing this firing in my ears all the time.

MR JAMIE: Besides school, did it affect you in any other way?

MR JACK: I couldn't be heard thereafter because I thought that some people would come again and try to shoot me.

MR JAMIE: You were scared, is that correct?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct, I was scared.

MR JAMIE: Did you still take the same interest in things that you did before?

MR JACK: My life changed and it was completely different from before.

MR JAMIE: Did you continue going to school and was it the same as before?

MR JACK: My life changed because even during the half year exams I did not perform well and even with the final exams I did not perform very well.

MR JAMIE: Are you still at school?

MR JACK: Yes, yes I was.

MR JAMIE: Yes but are you still at school now?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct, I'm still at school.

MR JAMIE: What standard are you in?

MR JACK: I'm enrolled at a certain technical college.

MR JAMIE: So you eventually left school, is that correct?

MR JACK: I am at a technikon at the moment.

MR JAMIE: Did you ever receive counselling or any other medical or other assistance after this incident?

MR JACK: No.

MR JAMIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JAMIE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Jamie. Mr Riley have you any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RILEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Now Mr Jack at the time that this incident occurred were you fourteen years old? Fourteen, fifteen years old?

MR JACK: I think I was fourteen years old. I cannot remember very well but I think I was fourteen years old.

MR RILEY: And it appears from what you say to us today that the deceased, you were very attached to the deceased, he was probably more like a father to you?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct. He was prepared to educate me and do everything for me like a father.

MR RILEY: Now you said to us that - let me just actually find out from you, after the incident had occurred, you went back to the scene, is that right? Did you there speak to any police officers and tell them what had occurred?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: So you did make a report to the police after the incident?

MR JACK: I never reported the matter to the police.

MR RILEY: I'm sorry, I did understand you to say just before this that you did in fact go back to the scene and tell the police about the incident?

MR JACK: The police were not at the scene.

MR RILEY: Did they not arrive on the scene and did you not tell them what had happened before you went to the hospital?

MR JACK: Before going to the hospital the police came and enquired and I told them that he was shot.

MR RILEY: Now do you recall what you said to them?

MR JACK: I told them that we were shot, that's all.

MR RILEY: Is that all you said, you didn't say by whom or how?

MR JACK: No, I did not mention that because I didn't even know the people who did that.

MR RILEY: Did you in fact at a later stage after you were discharged from the hospital, did you make a statement, a written statement to the police, did they come and take a statement from you about what had happened?

MR JACK: After coming out of the hospital the police came to my home.

MR RILEY: And did they take a statement from you about what had happened?

MR JACK: I told them that the people who called my uncle's name and after that they shot at him. I cannot remember more about the details that were in the statement.

MR RILEY: Did you at any stage tell the police or any person but particularly the police that you had been pulled off on the road at 1st Avenue, Nyanga, where you wanted to turn in at Emms Drive and that you'd been pulled off the road there by two mini-buses and a green/beige, green or beige Opel Rekord station wagon. Did you tell that to the police or anyone?

MR JACK: No we were never pulled off by any cars.

MR RILEY: No, that is not the question. The question is whether you had told that to the police after the incident had occurred?

MR JACK: No, I never told the police that.

MR RILEY: And if someone said that that is in fact what you said to them, what would you say about that?

MR JACK: Would you please repeat the question, sir?

MR RILEY: If someone, if a police officer said that you said that just after the incident had occurred, that you had reported that to him, what would you say about that?

MR JACK: No, there's nothing like that, I never mentioned that.

MR RILEY: There is a statement in the police docket of the Johannes De Vries Vermeulen, he was a sergeant in the South African Police, Guguletu, at the time. He says that after the incident you in fact made a report to him that you had been pulled off by two mini-buses.

MR JAMIE: Mr Chairperson, I'm going to object to this line of questioning. This statement hasn't been proven, it's inaccurate in other respects as well, Mr Chairperson, unless Mr Riley intends calling Mr Vermeulen, the sergeant.

MR RILEY: Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Riley, he seemed to have also responded to that he says he disputes that, it seems to be in dispute.

MR RILEY: Yes he does indeed, Mr Chairperson, I just felt that it was important that that particular issue be raised insofar as whether or not it's going to be proved or not, the cross-examination was conducted on statements of witnesses whose statements had not been proved in this tribunal yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RILEY: So I would have countered that objection on that basis. I just felt that it was important that that particular issue be raised because it is important that if there were different versions given of the events by this witness, whose evidence is clearly in direct conflict with the version that the applicant has given, then that is important to be heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. No, no, we accept and you have been allowed to put that question to the witness here, responded to that and he denies that.

MR RILEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you want to take it any further whether anything turns on this now or not?

MR RILEY: No, I'll leave that particular issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR RILEY: Now you've already testified that in fact on the night in question, that there was a mist or what was it, a fog or whatever you call it, is that right?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR RILEY: You also said that in fact you were unable to see clearly, is that right?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct, I couldn't see the people's faces.

MR RILEY: In fact when Mr Jamie asked you earlier on you said that you saw three people there but you can't describe them as it was misty if I recall your words correctly?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct, I saw three people.

MR RILEY: So is it fair to say then that as a result of the fact that it was misty, you couldn't describe the people that were there that you really can't tell this tribunal today, what and any time what in fact these persons were wearing?

MR JACK: There were wearing coats.

MR RILEY: Is that it?

MR JACK: And balaclavas on their heads.

MR RILEY: In fact you're not sure about that, is it because you testified today that they were wearing some things like balaclavas. So it doesn't seem as if you're quite sure what these persons were wearing?

MR JACK: I am sure about what I am saying, they had hats on and when I looked at those hats they looked more like balaclavas.

MR RILEY: Where you could see their faces it seems?

MR JACK: I couldn't see their faces because it was misty and it was dark.

MR RILEY: But it was not that the balaclavas were hiding their faces or anything like that?

MR JACK: They looked more like balaclavas to me.

MR RILEY: Now you were driving from the deceased's house when you say that the deceased made you aware of the fact that people were calling him?

MR JACK: Yes some people called him.

MR RILEY: So you became aware of the fact that people were calling the deceased because of the fact that the deceased drew your attention to that? If the deceased didn't tell you then you would not have been aware of that, is that correct?

MR JACK: I also heard them calling and he told me again that there were people calling him.

MR RILEY: How did you manage to hear that?

MR JACK: I heard the people calling, saying Nzonkwe and he had told me that the people were calling.

MR RILEY: You heard the applicant say that no one at any stage called Mr Jack's name there, you heard that?

MR JACK: Yes I heard that and to me it's a surprise, it comes as a surprise because the people called his name.

MR RILEY: Do you not say that you in fact, that he was in fact called by these people because of the fact that he told you that he was being called by the people?

MR JACK: No, I heard with my own ears and he later told me that the people were calling him.

MR RILEY: He later told you? What do you mean by that? In fact if I understood your evidence correctly, you testified

"We were going to take the Emms Drive road"

and then you continued to testify and you said:

"he told me there were people calling him."

That was your evidence.

MR JACK: I do not understand your question, sir?

MR RILEY: What I'm trying to say to you sir is, is it not more likely that you yourself was not aware of anyone having called the deceased but that the deceased in fact would have told you about these people?

MR JACK: I heard them with my own ears and he told me that there were people calling him.

MR RILEY: Well I must put it to you that as you've heard the applicant denies that at any stage anyone called Mr Pro Jack?

MR JACK: I am saying his name was called.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, may I just ask something here? Could you see where the people were calling him from? Could you see the direction or could you ascertain the direction where these voices came from?

MR JACK: These people who were calling him I saw them as the three people who were saying that because there was no other person in that vicinity except the three people who were standing there.

ADV SIGODI: Were they standing close to the road?

MR JACK: No, they were not standing close to the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just clarify this, Mr Jack? When you heard the voices did you see anybody outside the car?

MR JACK: No, I did not see any other person except these three people.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about the stage when you heard the voices, when you heard those voices or the voice did you see anybody outside?

MR JACK: I just saw these three people.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you heard the name of the deceased being called?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you still moving, was the car still moving at that time when you heard the voice or voices?

MR JACK: The car was motion when he was called and he stopped at a stop sign and reversed because he wanted to pay attention to the people who were calling him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now the question is, you say that you saw the three persons outside the car, you heard the voice or voices calling the name of the deceased, now could you determine from which direction the voice or voices was coming?

MR JACK: It came, the voices came from the direction of the main road, under the trees.

CHAIRPERSON: The direction of the main road, under the trees?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were there any people in that direction in the main road under the trees?

MR JACK: I saw only three people under the trees.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes Mr Riley?

MR RILEY: Thank you Chairperson.

So when you in fact supposedly heard these voices the car's windows were turned up and the car was moving, is that correct?

MR JACK: He stopped and when he was reversing he was winding down the window.

MR RILEY: So when he in fact pulled up next to the men, the window was already down?

MR JACK: Yes the window was slightly open.

MR RILEY: I understood your earlier evidence to be that he only rolled down the window when he in fact he was standing there next to the people, he had reversed and pulled up next to the people?

MR JACK: He did not open the window when he was next to the people.

MR RILEY: That's how I understood your evidence, he stopped and proceeded to a spot under the trees?

MR JACK: Yes, he stopped at a stop sign, he reversed and he went under the trees, he went to a spot under the trees.

MR RILEY: Yes I don't want to harp on this point but you testified now that the window was in fact rolled down at the stop street, presumably that is ...(intervention)

MR JACK: The window was not open at the stop street.

MR RILEY: Maybe I misunderstood you but that is what I heard you say?

MR JACK: The window was not opened at the stop street.

MR RILEY: Well where was the window opened for the first time then if you would be kind enough to tell us?

MR JACK: When he rolled down the window he reversed, he only rolled down the window when he was getting under the trees.

MR RILEY: Now your evidence was in fact that he stopped and proceeded to a spot under the trees, he had his lights on, he rolled down the window to talk to them, that's what your evidence was, is that how it happened?

MR JACK: The window was not opened completely, that's what I said.

MR RILEY: So the window was then open at the stop street, sir?

MR JAMIE: Sorry, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR JACK: That did not take place at the stop sign, he only rolled down the window when he was getting under the trees because he wanted to hear what these people had to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Riley, I'm not sure how much turns on this point but in any case we've heard what the evidence is.

MR RILEY: No, I just wanted to clarify that, I was trying to ascertain how he managed to hear the calling from outside and I got the impression that he had said that the window had been rolled down and that is why he could hear and that is what I wanted to clarify with him.

MR JACK: When the people were calling the window of the car were closed.

MR RILEY: Now what happened when these persons started shooting there, what happened to you, what did you do?

MR JACK: When they started shooting, the deceased pushed me, I went down under the dashboard.

MR RILEY: Did the deceased push you down or did you yourself hide under the dashboard?

MR JACK: The deceased pushed me under the dashboard after seeing the firearm and I also tried to get under the dashboard myself.

MR RILEY: Now you did make a statement, I'm just asking you this because I wasn't aware that the deceased did in fact push you, in fact this is the first time you're testifying about that. In paragraph 9 of the statement that you made you said and I quote

"The men then approached the driver's side of the car. When they got to the vehicle they produced rifles and fired at Pro from point blank range. One of the men carried a gun in addition to the rifle. Pro was shot and fell on top of me. I took cover under the dashboard in front of my seat. Through the passenger window I saw the men walking around the vehicle to the passenger side."

Do you want to comment on that?

MR JACK: Will the speaker please repeat the question.

MR RILEY: I'll just repeat the section that is important. Your evidence today is that Mr Jack, the deceased, pushed you down when the firing started but when you made your statement you said one of the men carried a gun in addition to a rifle and then you go on and you say

"Pro was shot and fell on top of me. I took cover under the dashboard in front of my seat."

So that is different from what you're saying today? Do you want to comment on that?

MR JACK: He pushed me and he fell on top of me and I got under the dashboard. It's not that he remained there after falling but he pushed me under the dashboard and I also tried to get under the dashboard.

MR RILEY: Just one moment, Chairperson? Thank you Mr Chairperson. I've no further questions at this state, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RILEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Riley. Mr Williams, have you got any questions?

MR WILLIAMS: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Toyise, have you got any questions?

MR TOYISE: No questions, Chairperson. Thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR TOYISE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I won't be very long, there's just one minor aspect I want to clarify?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: Mr Jack, can you just - the Committee hasn't been to the scene so they don't have the benefit of what the place looks like. Can I just for purposes of record confirm with you that 1st Avenue is in fact a two way traffic road, that it's a single lane up and a single lane down?

MR JACK: We have 1st Avenue on the other side and there's a corner and there's Emms Drive and there's another corner again at the main road.

MS PATEL: It is in fact just two lanes in which cars can go down the one lane and come up the other.

MR JACK: Are you talking about the 1st Avenue?

MS PATEL: The 1st Avenue in which you turned left into.

MR JACK: Yes. It is a two way traffic that was the road that we were using.

MS PATEL: Okay and when Pro Jack reversed the vehicle after having heard his name being called he in fact reversed across the road onto the opposite lane and then onto the embankment on the other side, not so?

MR JACK: Yes he went to the other side of the road because he was going straight to the trees.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jack, while you were watching television, where was Mr Pro Jack at that time?

MR JACK: He was there with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also watching television.

MR JACK: Yes he was also watching TV and also playing with the children.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any prior arrangement that he would be taking you home with his vehicle?

MR JACK: Yes he made arrangements because when I was about to walk home he told me that he was going to take me home.

CHAIRPERSON: So would it be correct to say that up to point when he said to you that he was going to take you home you were under the impression that you'd be walking home?

MR JACK: Yes, he told me that he was going to take me home because he was also going to his home and that road was not far from his home.

CHAIRPERSON: At whose house were you watching television?

MR JACK: It was at my grandmother's place, that is his mother.

CHAIRPERSON: And since when about has he been at the house of your grandmother. You say that you left between 9 and 10 in the evening? Since what time had Mr Pro Jack been at that house?

MR JACK: I do not know about that because I was busy playing outside with my friends and I found him in the house. I don't know for how long had he been in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: So you found in inside the house I assume when you went inside. Now how long about was that before you got a lift home from him, a few hours? For how long was that?

MR JACK: Just a few minutes, ten minutes or so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you got to your grandmother's house did you see Mr Pro Jack's vehicle there?

MR JACK: I was playing at the next door house and I saw his car and then I got into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his car parked in the street or on the premises or where was it parked?

MR JACK: It was inside the premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Was his car well known in that area?

MR JACK: Yes it was well known, it was known that that was his car.

CHAIRPERSON: And the route that you were taking from your grandmother's house, was that the only way to get from your grandmother's house to where Mr Pro Jack was living or was there another route that one could take to get to Mr Pro Jack's home from your grandmother's home?

MR JACK: That was not the only road.

CHAIRPERSON: While you were at your grandmother's house did you notice any strange people on the property or in the vicinity?

MR JACK: No, there were no strange people.

CHAIRPERSON: People with coats and balaclava like hats?

MR JACK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you were driving home, Mr Pro Jack was he at ease or was he concerned or was he normal?

MR JACK: He was at ease and we were also chatting in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: And also when his name was called was he also at ease, he wasn't nervous or anything?

MR JACK: Yes he was just free, he was at ease because he wanted to know who were those people who were calling him, who those people were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is there any re-examination? Yes Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: How far is your grandmother's house from the spot where he was shot?

MR JACK: It is not a long distance, you just take a corner, it's not far.

ADV SIGODI: When you ran from the spot where you were shot, how long did it take you to get to your grandmother's house?

MR JACK: Just a few minutes, 10 to 20 minutes.

ADV SIGODI: 10 to 20 minutes when running or when walking?

MR JACK: I was running.

ADV SIGODI: Your uncle, did he have anything to do with taxis? Did he own a taxi?

MR JACK: No he did not own a taxi, he had nothing to do with the taxis.

ADV SIGODI: Did he take part in resolving taxi disputes in the community or do you have any knowledge of that?

MR JACK: No, I know nothing about that.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just clarify a further question? The three people that you saw you said that they were some distance away from the road, is that right?

MR JACK: They were not on the road, they were under the trees.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you heard the voice or voices you're not sure, calling the deceased's name and you saw the three persons. Now when you saw them for the first time were they standing?

MR JACK: Yes they were standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they ever at any stage move towards the road or closer to the car or were they standing where you saw them the first time throughout?

MR JACK: No they didn't try to come closer to the car they were standing still.

CHAIRPERSON: And the vehicle moved right up to where they were, would that be right?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were standing the whole time?

MR JACK: Yes they were standing, they didn't even move.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you got to them then they just started shooting?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't say anything?

MR JACK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Jamie, have you got any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JAMIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Andile, where your grandmother lives is two blocks from the corner where the stop street is where you heard the people calling, is that not correct?

MR JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: Where your grandmother lives, the house where you were that evening with Pro, your grandmother's house, it is two blocks, it's in a road that is two blocks down from the stop street in 1st Avenue, is that correct? There are two streets from the stop street and the second street is the one your grandmother lives in?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct, it's only two streets from the house.

MR JAMIE: Your granny lives in the second street from the stop street, correct?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: The fourth house down that road, the second street?

MR JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: Your grandmother lives in about the fourth house, fourth or fifth house down the second street, is that correct?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And there are about two houses in each block so from the stop street there are about two houses then there's a street then there's about another two houses and a street, correct?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: So you had to run past two houses, a street, two houses, turn the corner and run past four houses to your granny's house after the incidence?

MR JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Okay. You've already testified that the window of the car was up when you first heard the voices. In your statement you said that Pro wound the window down as he reversed and then you've also indicated today that he was still busy with the window when he pulled up to the men, is that correct?

MR JACK: Yes as he was coming closer to them he was rolling down the window.

MR JAMIE: Completely?

MR JACK: No, it was not opened completely.

MR JAMIE: Didn't he open it completely at some point?

MR JACK: No it was never opened completely. While he was still rolling down the window, the shot rang out.

MR JAMIE: Okay. Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions but I do have a request if that is appropriate at this point? Inasmuch as there has been some questions and debate about distances and the witness is obviously trying his best, if this is going to be of importance I'd request that the tribunal conduct an inspection of the scene because the distances, I've been there, are not quite great and the photographs we've seen, I don't know whether the photographs that the members of the tribunal have are better than what I've got but I've got copies of photographs but are entirely impossible to see any depth or to actually see what the position is at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: I would make that request, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm not sure whether there is any real dispute about any of the distances and it might very well be that the parties are able to agree on some or other sort of layout but we'll bear that in mind, that suggestion.

So for the moment that's the testimony then that you had intended to lead. We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning. You said that you wanted to give the matter perhaps some further thought so you can consider whether your clients wish to call any further testimony and we can deal with that in the morning and we will also consider the question of having a look at the particular area.

But for the moment, Mr Jack, you are excused, thank you very much.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We've come to the end of the proceedings. Proceedings will now be adjourned until tomorrow morning and we will reconvene here at 9 o'clock. So we're adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS