JUDGE MALL: Are we ready to begin?
ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we are ready to begin.
Mr Chairman, the matters for today are the Botswana
operation Kahn House, Vereeniging incident and Komatipoort
Four, on page 1, Mr Chairman. I will hand over to my
learned friend, that is the application of Mentz, the Mentz
application.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you.
JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I didn't hear, what volume, what page?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, page 68 is the first matter
that is Kahn House.
JUDGE WILSON: And whose....
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mentz's application, yes.
JUDGE WILSON: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: May I beg leave to call Capt Mentz?
JUDGE MALL: Yes, please.
ADV DU PLESSIS CALLS
WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ: (Duly sworn, states).
EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, on page 68 the
application starts. You say the period was between 1989 and
1992, is that correct?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you give a closer date for us, could
you remember?
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ADV DU PLESSIS 75 CAPT MENTZ
CAPT MENTZ: Unfortunately not.
ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 69 you started with the explanation
of this incident, and could you please start with the first
paragraph.
CAPT MENTZ: Instructions were given that an operation in
Botswana had to be carried out. The purpose of the
operation was to eliminate a business just across the border
in Botswana and a shop as well. There was also a house. It
was used as a shelter for terrorists. It was used as a
shelter for terrorists crossing the border, and it was used
as a contact point where information and messages were
passed on and help and assistance given to terrorists on
their way to the Republic of South Africa or were returning
from the Republic. We expected to find at this house some
terrorists there who would be overnighting there. The
target would be eliminated due to the fact that it was
necessary to prevent the passage of terrorists across the
border. These terrorists, were at that stage, responsible
for handgrenade explosions, landmine explosions, death of
innocent civilians and also other acts of terror. I was
not told anything else and it must be remembered that I
acted on the instructions of my commanding officers.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the persons using this
particular house, the terrorists, do you know where they
crossed the border normally?
CAPT MENTZ: Across the border-line not through any official
border post where you have to show their passport, they just
jumped the fence, as we called it. There wasn't a very high
or electrified fence, it was simply a farm fence and there
was a river and on the RSA side there was just an ordinary
fence. And they used secret routes there.
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ADV DU PLESSIS 76 CAPT MENTZ
ADV DU PLESSIS: You say it was used as shelter and
accommodation for terrorists crossing the border, this
particular contact house. Is your information that
terrorists were often to be found in that house before they
crossed the border?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you continue, please, the third
paragraph.
CAPT MENTZ: The persons involved in the operation were Col
Eugene de Kock who was in command. He was the senior
officer there. The other officers were Lieut Marthinus Ras
Jnr - Gen Ras' son. He obtained the information and liaised
with the local security branch in Zeerust, as well as the
rest of the Western Transvaal area. We also had with us
Willie Nortjé, Chappies Klopper, Marthinus Ras, as I have
mentioned, Warrant Officer Louw van Niekerk, Charlie Chait
and I later remembered other names: Douw Willemse, Dragon
Andronowitz, Dawid Brits, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen,
John Taite.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you please repeat those names,
slowly, because these people have not been notified. It is
only brought to our attention now and you perhaps have their
addresses or know where they could be found. Could you
please tell the Committee that, so that they can be
notified.
CAPT MENTZ: Certainly, Chairperson. I will repeat the
names. Douw Willemse, Dragon Andronowitz, Dawid Brits,
Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen, John Taite. These persons
are all witnesses for the Attorney-General, except for, as
far as I am concerned, John Taite. John Taite lives in the
area of Knysna or George, I don't have a specific address.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 77 CAPT MENTZ
The rest, as far as I know, are all witnesses for the
Attorney-General. And then there were other people who were
involved, but I can't remember their names specifically and
I don't want to mention a name if I am not sure of his
involvement, but there were two or three other people
involved as well.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, before we turn to the next
page, were you involved in the planning of this operation?
CAPT MENTZ: At no stage, Chairperson. I was at Vlakplaas.
I was a junior there. And as I have said earlier, I
received instructions - when I received instructions I did
not doubt these instructions and the way in which Eugene de
Kock had contact with the police and security head offices,
I had no doubt that these instructions came right from the
top, via him. When I say from the top I mean senior
generals and officers in the security police. And I didn't
call them into question, the instructions.
ADV DU PLESSIS: How did you see your involvement in this
operation relating to the political situation in the country
at the time?
CAPT MENTZ: The way I saw it, was that we were fighting the
ANC, PAC and other liberation organisations with every means
at our disposal. We wanted to eliminate these people and it
was important for us that the operation should be
successful, seeing that this particular complex was quite
close to the border in Botswana, and terrorists had easy
routes, easy access to and from the Republic of South Africa
and they also received further instructions, help and
weapons there.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, whom did you expect to find in the
house? You yourself, I am not talking about the planning of
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ADV DU PLESSIS 78 CAPT MENTZ
the operation, but that night when you went out, what or who
did you expect to find in the house?
CAPT MENTZ: The person whose business and home it was, as
well as terrorists.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Please continue, page 70.
CAPT MENTZ: I just want to add something here. I earlier
testified that I was at no stage involved in the planning of
the operation or the identifying of this place, but if I
remember correctly, I and Willie Nortjé went to the
technical branch, Pretoria, just before the operation and he
there obtained Scorpion weapons with silencers. These were
prepared for us there and I waited in the car. He brought
the weapons out in boxes, cardboard boxes. I helped him to
transport these to Vlakplaas. It was only at a later stage
that I found these weapons at a particular farm. So I was
involved in the transporting of the weapons from security
technical to Vlakplaas.
We left from Vlakplaas with quite a few vehicles in a
convoy to a farm near the Botswana border. The farmhouse
was deserted. I don't know whom it belonged to. So we went
to this farm near the Botswana border and slept in an empty
house that night. The next day we all obtained weapons,
these specific weapons. Some of these weapons issued to us,
were inter alia, Scorpions fitted with silencers. I am
saying inter alia Scorpions, if I remember correctly, we
only had Scorpion weapons. On that same day the weapons
were tested at that deserted farmhouse just to check that
they were in good working order.
The same night, the same evening we went to the
Botswana border, where we drove along various dirt roads. I
am not exactly sure of where the place was, and we walked
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ADV DU PLESSIS 79 CAPT MENTZ
through the veld. And we waited at a particular place until
about one o'clock in the morning. We were all dressed in
dark clothes. It wasn't camouflage type of uniform or
clothes, it was just dark denim clothes and sweaters.
I then heard that the person whose house and business
it was, was one Mr Kahn. Later that night we crossed the
river. There is a specific place where a type of a wall had
been built and we crossed there. I had heard that there
were crocodiles in the river. I was part of the so-called
back-up team, Andre Andronowitz and myself. We walked right
at the back. But at that particular place where we crossed
the river, Eugene de Kock first waited for us all to cross
and then he crossed, and then he passed us again.
I was at the back the whole time to make sure that
nobody was following us or pursuing us or that nobody saw
us. Near the business premises and home, which was fenced
around completely, and there was a type of an incline there,
I couldn't see exactly what happened, but Col De Kock - I
can't remember which leg it was, but he tore the ligament in
his knee, near the shop, and after that he had to be
carried. If I remember correctly, Louw van Niekerk and Douw
Willemse stayed with him.
I entered a gate and I think on the left-hand side
there was a black shack, asbestos shack, but they told me
that the night watchman was there. I went past this place
and after having passed the shack I heard the night watchman
coming out. He must have heard something. He was shot
there several times. He shouted - I can't remember who shot
him, it was very dark and I had already passed that point.
I was inside the premises to perform security and
defence functions there and I went to the shop to see if
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ADV DU PLESSIS 80 CAPT MENTZ
there were any people there. The shop is on the left-hand
side. I went around it and I was between the outside fence
and the shop on the premises. The direction which I was
facing was back towards the border of South Africa.
From the members went into the house next to the shop
and people were shot. The people, I think Marthinus Ras
Jnr, he was in the house, he went into the house. I think
Willie Nortje as well and others. I can't remember exactly
who, but I am virtually certain of these two.
I later heard that an Indian man, his wife and two
children had been killed in this operation or died in the
operation. They were sleeping. They were shot, explosives
were placed in the house.
Yes, Willie Nortje now works for National Intelligence.
He is also a State witness and he was one of the people who
went into the house.
Whilst after we had moved away from the house for some
distance the house exploded, was blown-up. The explosion
took place whilst we were already moving back towards the
border. Nobody knew - when I say nobody I mean Lieut Ras,
Marthinus Ras Jnr, he knew who was inside the house. It was
his information and the security branch Zeerust. It was
information I didn't know.
Specifically who were in the house - the instructions
were that the residents had to be eliminated because there
might be terrorists in the house. There was no information
available beforehand that there would be children in the
house and nobody expected any children in the house. If I
had known that children would be shot dead I would probably
have had a problem to continue with the operation. But I
would like to add here that I would still have gone along
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 81 CAPT MENTZ
with the operation, I wouldn't have taken place in cross-
border operations after being told that children could
possibly be killed. I would have had a problem with that,
but I wouldn't have told De Kock and them no, I am not going
with.
ADV DU PLESSIS: What effect would that have had if you had
told them no, you weren't going to go with them, that you
refuse?
CAPT MENTZ: Well, in the first place I already knew of a
cross-border operation which was to take place. I don't
know what they would have done with me, but they could have
eliminated me, because perhaps I had become a risk through
knowing too much or they could have transferred me. But I
would have been worked out of Vlakplaas.
If I can describe it like this: such as a platoon
which had to march, and if you take out the marker or a
specific person then the platoon is no longer functional, it
doesn't have sufficient people. So I just went along with
the stream.
I personally would not have shot an innocent child
there, but as I have already testified, I didn't go into the
dwelling house. I was just securing the area around the
house. I would have gone along in a group context, as I
have already said.
I still have a problem with this operation, I think
about the children who were shot, and I don't live
comfortably with this fact.
If I could put it this way; it won't comfort me in any
way, but at that time I tried to deal with this, and I told
myself that the Defence Force did aerial raids across the
borders, also on foot, and there were other operations as
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ADV DU PLESSIS 82 CAPT MENTZ
well where innocent civilians were killed.
Furthermore, the terrorists planted bombs in the
Republic, landmines as well, and children and innocent
civilians were also killed in those incidents, and that is
the way in which I tried to deal with this incident.
As I have already testified, Vlakplaas was the military
wing of the security police, of the South African Police for
the government of the day, the National Party.
JUDGE WILSON: And Vlakplaas was called in to perform
precisely these sort of operations? Is that correct?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct. When we left the premises, I
was once again part of the back-up team. I can remember that
we struggled to carry De Kock because he was a big man. So
we progressed quite slowly. Andronovitch I once again
walked quite fast or slow jog and we kept looking back
towards the Kahn house. I can remember that there were other
lights close to this particular place, and I thought that
this must be a little village or something. We had to check
that we weren't being followed or that somebody close to the
premises had seen or heard us. That is what I meant when I
said I was part of the back-up team on our way back.
We once again crossed the river to the vehicles. We
had already reached the vehicles when the place was blown
up. As I said we were already in the Republic at that
stage.
We then went back to the farmhouse, from which we were
operating. After which we packed our stuff and early the
next morning - I remember we didn't sleep. Early the next
morning we drove to Richards Bay to constitute an alibi for
us. Col De Kock was lying on the back seat because his leg
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 83 CAPT MENTZ
was injured. I drove the vehicle. I think we bandaged his
leg but he didn't get any medical treatment for his leg. We
just drove to Richards Bay with him in that condition. In
Richards Bay there were other members that had already
booked places and made arrangements and preparations for our
accommodation. This was under the command of Warrant
Officer Piet Botha. He is now Capt Piet Botha.
They rented rooms for us and they would have done
things to our beds to make the cleaners believe that we had
actually slept in the bed. As I have said, that was to have
an alibi.
As I saw the operation it was essential to eliminate
this passage used by terrorists. I gave no orders and I only
acted on instructions and orders.
The persons who were killed, four persons, including
the two children. The names of the persons are unknown to
me. As far as I can remember it was the Kahn family and
their house had been blown up. It was only the home which
had been blown up, not the shop.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, general motivation on page 74
to page - top of page 81, do you confirm the correctness of
that? On page 81, the second paragraph, you explain the
political motivation. Can you just read that for us,
please, the motive.
CAPT MENTZ: The motive in which I acted was in the
execution of my orders. It was also for the protection of
innocent people and elimination of activists. This was
necessary in the light of the war that was raging then.
This incident happened during the political unrest during
that period. The whole land was burning. There were all
sorts of problems, arson and other crimes that were
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ADV DU PLESSIS 84 CAPT MENTZ
committed in the name of the liberation movements against
the State and the destabilisation of the State.
ADV DU PLESSIS: The next page, page 82 at the top.
CAPT MENTZ: The aim was as explained above, because
liberation movements acted against the State and to resist
their actions of overthrowing the State. It was also
against activists. It would frighten them to act actively.
I also at all times acted under the command of De Kock. As
I have already said, Capt Ras Jnr, it was his information
and his co-ordination. He will also come and testify to
that extent.
The elimination of the activists and the safe house was
necessary in the light of the fact that the activists were
involved in serious acts of terror. It was necessary to
eliminate these activists to stabilise society.
It was furthermore necessary to protect the lives of
innocent people, black and white. It was impossible at that
stage to neutralise activists completely by ways of the
Security Act or normal police action. It was imperative to
act preventatively in foreign countries.
ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 83, you are asked an explanation or
your explanation regarding financial gain.
CAPT MENTZ: Quite a while after the operation, I will say
approximately three or four weeks afterwards, Willie Nortje
came to me and handed me an envelope, all the other people
involved also received such an envelope. If I can remember
correctly, there was R6 000,00 in that envelope. He said
that it was for that operation and that the main branch
congratulated us on it.
I regarded that as a reward for that specific operation
and for the reason that at that stage the National Party,
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
85 CAPT MENTZ
the Government of the day would not officially have been
able to give us medals for bravery for over border
operations and so on. We saw that we were not receiving
medals for it but they gave us monetary rewards. That was
the first and the last time.
JUDGE WILSON: What bravery was there in shooting four
civilians who were asleep, that you thought you deserved a
medal?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I did not expect a medal, it was an
over-border operation, in a different country, which was the
enemy of the National Party, the Government of the day. If
we were caught there by the Army of Botswana or the police
or terrorists, they would have shot us.
JUDGE WILSON: Was Botswana the enemy of South Africa?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair.
JUDGE WILSON: You've just said so, you said a foreign
country that was an enemy of the government of the day?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, then I would like to correct
that. They supported the enemies of the South African
Government in housing these terrorists. They allowed these
people to use their country for operations against the South
African Government.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, were you told anything
beforehand with regards to extra remuneration?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Was the payment at all a motive for your
involvement in the operation?
CAPT MENTZ: No, not at all.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright. What did you think about this
when you were paid for the operation, with regards to the
higher officers and the main office, what did you think they
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ADV DU PLESSIS 86 CAPT MENTZ
accomplished by this?
CAPT MENTZ: It was their way of, in the first place,
showing us that it had been an approved main office
operation, and that they wanted to thank us in this way for
destroying this house and for the fact that this route would
not have been used again.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And Capt Mentz, under whose command did you
act?
CAPT MENTZ: Under Eugene de Kock and the other officers
there, who were present there.
JUDGE WILSON: How was the payment made?
ADV DU PLESSIS: It was at Vlakplaas ...(intervention)
JUDGE WILSON: No you misunderstand was it by cheque, was it
in cash?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, it was cash in a sealed brown
envelope.
JUDGE WILSON: Given to you by one of the people who had
participated in the operation?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair, Willie Nortjé. For
example, we never stood in a long queue to receive our
envelopes. We were called to the side one by one. I, for
example, had to go to Nortjé's office. He closed the door
and then he gave the envelope to me, but I know that other
people also received money.
JUDGE MALL: Are you finished?
ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS
JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe, have the relations of the victims
been notified in this case?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, no. Mr Chairman, attempts were
made to trace the relations, Mr Chairman, and the only thing
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ADV MPSHE 87 CAPT MENTZ
that I could lay my hands on was the Sowetan newspaper
report, wherein this Kahn family was reported about by a
person who was a - by a Black woman who was working for
them, and at that time she made a report when she was in
Botswana. I could not make any traces as to families in
Botswana. It was only a report in the newspaper.
JUDGE WILSON: Did you enquire from the Government and other
such things? If they owned a shop, a large shop, we are
told, somebody presumably wound up the estate?
ADV MPSHE: I did not make enquiries in the Botswana
Government, but I am making enquiries with the ANC desk and
they did not have any particulars about the Kahn family,
save they also referred me to the World newspaper report.
JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I am not asking that. Surely when
somebody dies like this, who owns property, the estate would
have been wound up and there would be a record kept in the
relevant department as to what had been done with the
assets; had that been paid to members of the family, you
would have got the names of them.
ADV MPSHE: Yes, that may be so, but I did not make any
enquiries with the Botswana Government.
JUDGE MALL: Are there any questions you would like to put,
Mr Mpshe?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Yes, sir. Was it necessary
for the night watchman to be killed? In other words was it
not possible for him just to be caught and bound and put
back into his shack and go on with the operation?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I was not involved in that. I don't
even know who shot the man, but I can remember that he
screamed and that he was then shot. They wanted to silence
him to prevent him from warning other terrorists who might
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ADV MPSHE 88 CAPT MENTZ
have been in the house. The persons who shot him had to act
quickly to silence him. I don't even know if he possibly
helped ANC freedom fighters or terrorists. I don't know.
ADV MPSHE: You said in your application that you wouldn't
have killed the children yourself. Am I understanding you
to be saying that the death of these two children was
uncalled for?
CAPT MENTZ: If De Kock or Marthinus Ras had told me
beforehand that there were going to be children in the house
and that we were going to shoot them, and if he told me I
had to do it, I would have told them I won't. But as I have
testified I would still have gone with. I am sorry about
these children who were shot. I don't know, I don't even
know how old they were. I also don't know whether or not
they gave the terrorists staying over there that night, if
they gave them food. I didn't know anything beforehand, but
as I have already said if they had told me that I was to
shoot those children I would not have done it.
ADV MPSHE: Are you telling us that the killing of these
children was uncalled for, according to you?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that is possible.
ADV MPSHE: Are you also asking for amnesty as far as the
death of the two children is concerned, not so?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct. Because after I had heard
that there were children in the house, and that was after we
had crossed the border again, after we were back at our
vehicles in the Republic, we were talking about who did
what. I just heard that the children were sleeping. Up to
today I do not know how old they were. I do have a problem
with that but I apply for amnesty for them. Because
afterwards we all know the law. I associated myself with
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ADV MPSHE 89 CAPT MENTZ
their death and therefore I am as guilty as the person who
shot them.
ADV MPSHE: Now if you are asking for amnesty in respect of
the death of these two children, what political motivation
do you attach to the death of the two children?
CAPT MENTZ: As I have said, they could have favoured
liberation movements, they could have helped these people,
given them food.
JUDGE WILSON: They might three and four years old, as far
as you knew, how can you make speculations like that?
JUDGE MALL: I honestly think that you should avoid
speculating to that extent. You have no idea as to whether
they were infants or what. I think the answer should really
be just exactly what you know and not what your conjecture
is, please.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, were you advised at any stage of the
ages of the children concerned when you discussed the
incident? On your way back you were told that the children
had been killed. Were their ages indicated to you?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
JUDGE WILSON: Did you bother to ask to see whether they
might have participated?
CAPT MENTZ: I never asked.
ADV MPSHE: May I continue, Mr Chairman? Thank you. I
haven't heard the answer to my question. What political
motivation do you attach to the death of the two children,
if you were "vereenselwig" yourself with what the people
did?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, this home belonged to their father,
Mr Kahn. This house was used for terrorists. The children,
I can't speculate, but they were under the influence of
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV MPSHE 90 CAPT MENTZ
their parents. It doesn't matter how old they were, they
were part of the operation. Their house was blown up. The
aim was to destroy this place, as I have said, to eliminate
terrorists and to prevent them from using this as an
entrance route, and that is why they were killed.
ADV MPSHE: I won't pursue that because you are again
speculating as to what you think was the position. Let us
go back to the Kahn family, the husband and the wife. Were
they labelled or were they investigated and proved as being
activists in Botswana?
CAPT MENTZ: As I have already said, they were - it was the
security branch of Western Transvaal and specifically
Zeerust, Capt Marthinus Ras Jnr was working in that area at
that stage. They would have made sure by means of source
reports that the people who were doing business on those
premises, favoured liberation movements and helped them
financially, that they received food, they received
information. I accepted this and I accepted that this place
was used for that specific purpose.
ADV MPSHE: I don't want to believe that you were told or
instructed by Eugene de Kock, and others, Willie Nortjé,
that come with us, we are going to do an operation in
Botswana and you were not told as to the specifics and as to
what has been investigated and found before you could go
with them. Is that what happened?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, as I have already testified, we
were told that the place was an entrance route at places
where terrorists could overnight, where terrorists were
helped. They received information there, information was
transferred there, and it was an operation. At Vlakplaas I
never worked with files. I was a foot soldier. I was in a
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ADV MPSHE 91 CAPT MENTZ
war against liberation movements for the Government of the
day. I accepted that since these orders came from the head
office, that they would have made sure that this information
was correct. It was not just simply decided we are bored
and therefore we have to go over the border and destroy the
house. It came from the top. I believed that they knew what
they were doing. I never doubted the orders that came from
the top.
ADV MPSHE: Let me confine it because whenever I ask a
question and then you go very wide on my question. I will
confine you to what I want you to tell me, to tell this
Committee. Was the Kahn family eliminated because they were
activists or terrorists in Botswana or because they were
housing terrorists in Botswana?
CAPT MENTZ: They were aiding, helping terrorists. I do not
know to which party they belonged, but according to me, if
you helped a terrorist, you do conform yourself to the
struggle, to the liberation movement. They were activists
against the South African Government.
ADV MPSHE: Yes, that may be so but helping a terrorist or
an activist doesn't necessarily mean that you are also a
terrorist or an activist. Is that not the position?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I see it differently. If you
helped a terrorist movement at that stage you were in my
books, also part of the struggle and a terrorist.
ADV MPSHE: Let me take you back to the Ribeiro matter, I
think the same facts in the Ribeiro matter would also come
in here. Yes, I am told you were not involved in the
Ribeiro matter, but you were present when the evidence was
given and cross-examination was done on this Ribeiro matter.
That day, it was established that Dr Ribeiro himself was
not CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
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an activist but assisted activists and terrorists medically.
How do you respond to that one?
MR DU PLESSIS OBJECTS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't
want to inhibit my learned friend, but I don't understand
the relevance of that question. I don't understand why the
Ribeiro matter is raised here and I don't understand the
reason for the questioning. I object against the question.
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it is very easy to understand. The
witness has just testified that if you assist an activist or
a terrorist, it means you associate yourself with that and
you may be an activist yourself. Now I am sketching out the
Ribeiro incident in that it was found the opposite in the
Ribeiro matter, not by this Committee, but the evidence
...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: But Mr Mpshe, then perhaps you should put the
whole story. There was also evidence that they assisted
them financially to go out of the country and assisted them
financially after their return.
ADV MPSHE: That is correct, that was the evidence given.
But the point I am trying to make here, is that the fact
that he was assisting them financially and medically, did
not make him an activist. As the witness says if you do
assist, then you are one.
JUDGE MALL: I think Mr Mpshe, on that point you can
address us on when the time comes, in the Ribeiro case.
ADV MPSHE: As it pleases the Committee.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will
sum up my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
JUDGE WILSON: One of the problems I have with the evidence
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here, and in other instances, is you continually say you
were a foot soldier. You merely carried out the
instructions of the generals.
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: And you took part in the killings of numbers
of people. You can't even remember what year this was in.
This was somewhere between 1989 and 1992.
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: That is the impact it had on you. Why did
you people never take the trouble to do a little
reconnaissance?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, as I have already testified, Capt
Marthinus Ras who worked in that area, close to the border,
together with the other security branches, would have made
sure beforehand what was going on. They would have checked
where we were going through, they would have verified with
the informants, that this Kahn business cum house was used
...(intervention)
JUDGE WILSON: These are lovely excuses. They were not
checking what was happening that night, Ras was with you, he
wasn't checking, was he?
CAPT MENTZ: We were not waiting and sent him over to find
out what was going on. All of us went together.
JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but why did you Vlakplaas hit squad who
was brought in from Vlakplaas to the Western Cape, the
Eastern Cape, Eastern Transvaal, all over the country to
kill, why didn't you check first? You did not know who was
sleeping in that house that night. You made no effort.
CAPT MENTZ: I didn't.
JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your unit made no effort to find
out. There might have been a doctor who was treating
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someone who had been brought in urgently ill, or a nurse or
a priest. You didn't know. You went in and killed the
people you found in the houses. Why did you not bother to
check up to make sure there were not innocent people, and in
this case you would have found there were two children?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, Marthinus Ras would, together with
the local security branch, have verified this information,
but we didn't go over first to make sure. We expected
terrorists.
JUDGE WILSON: He was with you, you were all together that
afternoon, you all went there together. Nobody, it is quite
obvious, nobody was checking up and nobody did in the other
cases. Why not? I am not asking for a motive for the
attack, I am asking for the actual mechanism. You are going
to attack a house. You are going to shoot the people in it
and blow it up. Why did you never take the trouble to find
out who precisely was in that house, which you could have
done in most instances, by just watching the house for the
afternoon.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it was in a different country.
Marthinus Ras' amnesty application is already before you. I
will request the Committee to ask him these questions,
because he was in control of this operation, together with
the security branch. There might also be other applications
...(intervention)
JUDGE WILSON: You were the Vlakplaas hit squad brought in
to do the killings.
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct Mr Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: Why did the Vlakplaas hit squad not check up
on what they were attacking? Why do you always try to put
the blame on somebody else.
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CAPT MENTZ: I refer here to Marthinus Ras who was with me
in the Vlakplaas hit squad, it was his operation. I
accepted that he would have made sure.
JUDGE WILSON: I thought he was in the Western Transvaal
Special Branch?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, he was also at Vlakplaas, but he
worked in the Western Transvaal/Botswana district, from
Vlakplaas.
JUDGE WILSON: So you agree, you made no effort to check up
who was in the houses before you attacked them?
CAPT MENTZ: No, I didn't.
JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your Vlakplaas unit, not just
you individually.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, Marthinus Ras would - he was not
all the time with me, he would have made sure.
JUDGE WILSON: He was with you that afternoon and evening,
he wasn't checking up.
CAPT MENTZ: From the time we came to the farm, yes. But I
did not go there with him. We weren't driving there in -
together, so I don't know if he checked beforehand.
JUDGE WILSON: But he was with you at the farm, he wasn't
watching the place. The other cases we heard, you didn't
check on beforehand, did you? It was not your practice.
CAPT MENTZ: No, we acted on a source information from other
branches.
JUDGE MGOEPE: On page 71, the third paragraph or the last
paragraph there, that sentence reads "that nobody knew who
were in the house before the house was entered." what does
that mean?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, when I read this sentence I added to
that, I said nobody knew who was in the house, but I believe
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that Marthinus Ras would have known. We weren't told. When
I testified in main I extended on that, expanded on that.
JUDGE MGOEPE: On what basis do you believe that Ras would
he have known?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, because I spoke to Marthinus Ras
during this week and he told that his application - I don't
know if it is here yet, but he says he explains it in his
application who knew and who didn't know.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Further on you say,
"There was no information that there had been
children in the house, and nobody expected
children in the house".
what time did the attack take place?
CAPT MENTZ: It was after one in the morning.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Surely you would have expected that children
would be there in the house at that time?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair now that I think back, yes, but I
didn't know that there were going to be children in the
house. I knew that Kahn and the terrorists in the house
would have been eliminated and that the place would then be
blown up to destroy the buildings.
JUDGE MGOEPE: If the Kahn had children where would you
expect their children to be at that time of the day?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, in the house?
JUDGE MGOEPE: You see this sentence of yours that there was
no evidence that there were children in the house, is
puzzling. The real question should have been, was there
information that there were no children in the house, isn't
it so?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, that is correct.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Because one would have expected that time of
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the night that children should be in the house.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, I admit that, that's true, but I
thought there was going to be Mr Kahn and the terrorists.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there any real concerns about the safety
of children in the house, was there any serious concern on
the part of your team?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, there was never any talk of
children being in the house. It was never discussed. I
don't know if specifically the people who were in the house
who shot the people there, then discussed it amongst
themselves, but it was never mentioned before we reached the
farm house. I was the back-up, I was never told that. It
was never discussed, but I don't know if, whether or not
they discussed it beforehand, those people who went in the
house, if they knew this, but I am sure that Marthinus Ras
will come and explain this.
JUDGE MGOEPE: And what you do know, you say here is that
there were instructions that the occupants of the house be
eliminated?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.
JUDGE MGOEPE: And nothing further was said about the
children, as far as you can remember?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, terrorists were expected in the
house.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.
JUDGE WILSON: Where in Botswana was this?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I am not exactly sure, but Col Roelf
Venter testified, I think they - he spoke about Derdepoort.
This rings a bell somewhere that it could have been in this
area, the Derdepoort border post. I have never been there.
I am not one hundred per cent sure, but it could have been
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JUDGE WILSON 98 CAPT MENTZ
in that area.
JUDGE WILSON: Can you give us a little more indication
where Derdepoort is? I don't know if any of the
Commissioners know.
ADV DE JAGER: Is it from Rustenburg on the road to
Nietverdiend where Herman Charles Bosman lived?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, no, I think it is, if you drive to
Zeerust you pass through Zeerust, and there somewhere to the
right. If you turn to the right outside of Zeerust, there is
a border post, but it is not that one, it is on a dirt road
before you get Zeerust, in the Botswana direction. I think
there somewhere, there is a border post somewhere there as
well.
ADV DE JAGER: How far is this from Vlakplaas approximately?
CAPT MENTZ: To Zeerust?
ADV DE JAGER: Is it in the vicinity of 2 to 300
kilometres?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever serve in that area?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair.
ADV DE JAGER: You were never stationed thereabouts?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
ADV DE JAGER: You never investigated any routes there?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I only once accompanied De Kock
to Mmabato, Mafekeng.
ADV DE JAGER: (Indistinct - not translated).
CAPT MENTZ: He went to pay an informant from Botswana
there.
ADV DE JAGER: When were you transferred to Vlakplaas?
CAPT MENTZ: It was the 1st of August 1989.
ADV DE JAGER: That was after you met De Kock when you
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ADV DE JAGER 99 CAPT MENTZ
arrested one of his Vlakplaas unit members for murder in
South Africa?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, it was Almond Nofemela.
ADV MPSHE: Perhaps to help the Committee Mr Chairman
Derdepoort, as the witness has correctly stated, before you
can reach Zeerust, there is a turn-off at the Groot Marico,
just over the bridge, you turn right into Groot Marico and
then it takes you through to the Swartruggens area,
Derdepoort is just around there. It was the border of
Botswana.
JUDGE WILSON: A very long way from Richards Bay.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, Richards Bay, we went there
afterwards to create an alibi.
MS KHAMPEPE: Can you probably throw more light why you
chose Richards Bay all the way from North West?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it was to make sure that nobody could
have seen us in the vicinity or in the area, because then
they could have concluded that we were in the vicinity and
there was an attack at the house.
ADV DE JAGER: It is approximately the farthest place you
can come or you can go in South Africa from Derdepoort.
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair. The morning when we
drove away we were told for the first time that we were
going to Richards Bay. That's why I say we never had all
the details of the operation, but the people in command,
like De Kock and Basson, they knew.
ADV DE JAGER: When did you realise or were told for the
first time that children were shot dead?
CAPT MENTZ: It was the evening when we went over the river
and when we got in the vehicle, when the place blew up, it
was said that children were also shot. I don't know who shot
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ADV DE JAGER 100 CAPT MENTZ
them, but we were told they were shot.
ADV DE JAGER: You heard after they had been shot?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair.
MS KHAMPEPE: The purpose for which this operation was
executed, was to close the gateway for the terrorists into
and out of the borders of the Republic of South Africa. I
would be correct in summarising the purpose in that way?
CAPT MENTZ: That is right. Also to kill terrorists that we
might have found there, but there weren't any.
MS KHAMPEPE: And this Mr Kahn was aiding and abetting the
terrorists. Now when did you become aware that the person
who was aiding and abetting the terrorists was this certain
Mr Khan? Was that before you were on your way to Gaberone,
whilst things were being prepared, or were you told this
information as you were travelling and crossing all the
rivers full of crocodiles into Botswana?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, we were told this while we were
at Vlakplaas. We were told that there was a house in
Botswana - for the purposes as I have already explained -
which had to be blown up and eliminated. But I didn't have
any source files from Zeerust or the Western Transvaal.
MS KHAMPEPE: Who told you, was it Marthinus Ras Jnr?
CAPT MENTZ: It might have been either Ras or De Kock, but I
think it would rather have been De Kock. He was our
commander and he would have told this to us. He would have
told us that.
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you think it relevant at that stage to ask
for more details about Mr Kahn to find out more about his
marital status, to find out more about who the occupants of
the house were?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I never received orders from De
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MS KHAMPEPE 101 CAPT MENTZ
Kock with regards to covert offensive or defensive
operations. Because he had been the commanding officer and
liaised with us, as well as with security head office, I
never questioned this. I believed that it would have been
proved by head office and police and that those people would
have made sure that the information is correct. I never
asked questions.
JUDGE WILSON: You felt no responsibility to do that?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, my seniors - I believed my
seniors would have done that.
JUDGE MALL: I just want to clear up a point which worries
me too. When the decision to attack this house and property
was made known to you, were you told specifically that there
were going to be terrorists in that house at the time you
were going to attack, or was that a matter of no concern?
You knew that there was a house, you knew that there was an
owner and according to you, it was known that that owner
provided succour to terrorists and so on, and so it didn't
matter whether there were terrorists or not, you were going
to blow up this house, irrespective of - even though there
were no terrorists there? Was that the plan?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I was brought under the impression
that there might have been terrorists there. But the house
had to be blown up.
JUDGE MALL: There might have been terrorists and even if
there were no terrorists the house had to be blown up.
That's the point.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, the place had to be destroyed so
that it could not be used again in the future.
JUDGE MALL: Yes, so even if there were no terrorists, that
house and the family that occupied this house, had to be
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eliminated, had to be killed.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Captain on page 69, you say that - I might
have missed something here - the purpose of the operation
had been to eliminate a shop and a large business. Is this
what happened eventually?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it must read the house. The people
weren't sleeping in the shop, the house had to be blown up.
JUDGE MGOEPE: I am told that in your evidence, you added
"and the house". In other words it would have said that the
aim of the operation was to eliminate "a house, a shop and a
large business".
CAPT MENTZ: What I meant to say was that it was a business
complex, there was a shop, but the house at the business
complex, I mean, the house had to be eliminated.
JUDGE MGOEPE: But there must be a shop and then a business
premises in which people would not be sleeping, people would
be sleeping in the house.
CAPT MENTZ: That is what I meant. Let's say it was a
smallholding with a shop and a house next to it on one
premises, the house was next to the shop.
JUDGE MGOEPE: What troubles me is whether you did stick to
the mandate? Were you told to eliminate the shop and the
business, which is something quite distinct from the house?
CAPT MENTZ: No, this is a mistake. The order was to
destroy the house. There was no attempt to burn down the
house - ag, pardon, the business.
JUDGE MGOEPE: It is not just one word that we are dealing
with here, we are dealing with quite a number of points. A
shop and a large business, you in fact even described the
business, shop and business, described as a big business or
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JUDGE MGOEPE 103 CAPT MENTZ
something.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, there was only one business on the
premises. There was only a shop. There was no garage or
whatever else.
JUDGE MGOEPE: But you see when you initially compiled your
application you knew that the people were killed in the
house, isn't it? You knew that the people were killed in
the house.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Now how could you have by accident have
omitted also to say that the house was also to be attacked,
and instead only mentioned the shop and the business?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, but just at the end of this paragraph
it is mentioned that it was used for a liaising house. It
might have been the case, but we never attempted to destroy
the shop.
JUDGE MGOEPE: I am trying to understand the basis on which
you could possibly have made this kind of mistake when you
compiled your application. How could you have forgotten to
mention the house, when in fact you knew then already that
the people were killed in the house. How could you have
forgotten also to mention that the house was also to be
attacked?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, we sat late at night in drawing up
these affidavits. We had to take it to the police the next
morning. It could have slipped in there.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Well let's see what you mean, are you
saying that you were also, you were instructed also to
eliminate the shop and the business?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, what I mean here ...
(intervention).
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ADV DU PLESSIS 104 CAPT MENTZ
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, can I please come in here.
You will see on page 71, specifically - specifically in page
71 there is a clear distinction between the house and the
shop; explosives were put in the house and the inhabitants
were shot in the house, nobody knew who was in the house. I
was inside the premises and I looked into the shop to see if
there were not people there. So he draws the distinction
there later on. I just want to point that out in all
fairness Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MGOEPE: I know that, I know that they attacked the
house, isn't it?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, but the line of
questioning, with respect, was that he never mentioned in
his application the house. I just wanted to clear that up.
JUDGE MGOEPE: No. No, that is not the line of my
questioning.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, then I misunderstood.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Initially I did so, but my attention was
drawn to the fact that he did mention the house.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, then I misunderstood it. Thank you Mr
Chairman.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes. Now I am going back to page 69. You
said that the shop and business were to be eliminated. Or
do you want to delete that or that whole portion?
CAPT MENTZ: If the Committee would allow me, I just want to
reiterate, what I meant was this is a business premises,
with one shop on it. It was only one shop where food and
other things were sold. There were no other businesses.
The shop and the premises with the shop on it, is business
premises and next to that was a house. I expressed myself
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JUDGE MGOEPE 105 CAPT MENTZ
wrongly.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, well that will leave us with a shop,
that there was a shop, isn't it. Now I am asking you
whether your instructions were to attack that shop or
whether we should also cancel, delete the shop as well, and
leave only the house.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, no, we only had to attack the home or
the house where the people ...(intervention)
JUDGE MGOEPE: And the shop and the business are all a
mistake.
CAPT MENTZ: .... where the terrorists might have
been....(intervention)
JUDGE MGOEPE: They should not have been here.
CAPT MENTZ: We weren't ordered to burn down the house,
there was no explosives - there was only explosives for the
house.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you sure that this is a mistake, wasn't
this actually the order that you go and blow up a shop and
instead of blowing the shop you people deviated and then
attacked the house?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, the order was Kahn, the house and
terrorists. The people there had to be eliminated, the
house had to be blown up. It was never said that while you
people are going to attack the house, others had to burn
down the shop. That was never said.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Well I've noted your point, you are you
saying that all this was a mistake and we could just as well
delete that, but I must tell you that I cannot understand
how you could have made this kind of mistake.
JUDGE MALL: Can you recall who conveyed to you precisely
what you were supposed to do, what you were supposed to
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destroy? Who told you precisely, was it De Kock, was it
Ras?
CAPT MENTZ: No, it was De Kock.
JUDGE MALL: Was he conveying his remarks to you personally
or to the group as a whole?
CAPT MENTZ: At the farmhouse there was a quick meeting and
it was told to me, if I remember correctly, you and
Andronowitz must stay behind all the time, to make sure that
we are not being pursued or attacked from behind. I was on
my way there and I stayed behind all the time and the same
on our way back, I stayed right at the back.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. No, I am concerned about the instructions
as to what was to be destroyed, when that was being told,
was that told to you personally or was that told to the
group that you are going there to destroy this, that or the
other?
CAPT MENTZ: No, it was given to the group that the house
had to be attacked, terrorists and Kahn had to be
eliminated, we had to set explosives. If I remember
correctly the explosives were set in the main bedroom and
then we left the area. But we were never told you, you and
you must shoot the children. That was never said.
JUDGE MALL: No, I wasn't thinking about that. I know what
you were told that you and Andronowitz were to stay behind
or follow from the rear.
CAPT MENTZ: No, there was a group meeting beforehand.
JUDGE MALL: Yes I heard they had a group meeting, their
instructions were that you were going to destroy certain
things.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE MALL: When you left Vlakplaas you didn't know what
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you were going to do. Is that it?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson. At Vlakplaas we were told
that we were going to jump the fence into Botswana and that
there was a house which the terrorists were using. So we
knew we were going to operate in Botswana. That we knew.
JUDGE WILSON: Were you told that after the operation you
were going to go and establish an alibi?
CAPT MENTZ: No, as I said, that morning after we finished
and we came to the farmhouse, we decided we would go to
Richards Bay to constitute an alibi. That was told to us
then.
JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the clothing to go and
create your alibi in Richards Bay? Here you were all
dressed in dark denim clothing, which would have stood out
like a sore thumb in Richards Bay, wouldn't it?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, but as I testified earlier, at
Vlakplaas if you left to go and do a job you sometimes were
absent for two or three weeks. So we always carried clothes
with us, other, a change of clothes. We only put on the dark
clothes there on the farm. For the rest we had normal, we
wore normal clothes, we never wore uniforms.
JUDGE WILSON: So all of you had enough clothing to last for
some time?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you have given evidence that you
cannot sleep even up to this day because of your
participation in the killing of the children, which is still
weighing heavily on your shoulders.
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I was involved in several things
which affected me, and at times I have to use sleeping
tablets to be able to sleep. These things affected me. I
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can't say it was only this case or another case. Each and
every time when you talk about these things it all comes
back to you and then the whole thing starts afresh.
MS KHAMPEPE: How did you feel when you received the payment
of R6 000,00 from Mr Nortjé, knowing that it was payment
related to the killing of such children?
CAPT MENTZ: All of us received that, we all used it and I
thought well, that's the way it worked and I used it, but I
feel bad and I have remorse about the children. As I said,
at the start of my evidence, the way I tried to deal with
this and to make it easier for me, I use the example of the
Defence Force with cross-border operations and aerial
attacks and in the course of which innocent children are
also killed. That's the way I try to explain it to myself
or to justify it to myself, I don't know.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
JUDGE MALL: Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman,
please. Capt Mentz, could we please go to page 23 of your
application. Could you please read the last paragraph.
CAPT MENTZ: I tried to make this application as detailed as
possible. Any further elaboration on the facts will be done
during my testifying before the Commission. Aspects such
as, for instance, my motives and the objectives with which I
pursued these acts will be more fully motivated during
evidence. Due to constraints of time I stand by the
contents of this application.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Capt Mentz, since these applications
were drafted, you have also talked about this with Marthinus
Ras. Is that correct?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 109 CAPT MENTZ
ADV DU PLESSIS: Have you spoken to any other people who
were involved in this incident?
CAPT MENTZ: No, not one of them.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the evidence which you have
given about this incident here today, is that the truth?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Is there any reason why you would lie to
this Committee about the blowing up of the house or the
blowing up of the shop or business complex? Is there any
reason why you would want to tell a lie?
CAPT MENTZ: Not at all, Chairperson, that is why we are
here.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Is there any benefit which you would derive
from not telling the truth on that aspect?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson, if I don't tell the truth, I
simply prejudice myself.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Are you satisfied that if the written
portion of your application, if that does not set out the
situation hundred per cent correctly, that you have now
clarified the position before the Committee and that they
have now heard the truth?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, the questions put to me by the Committee
have clarified this.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, there are some questions about
previous applications and also this application. Questions
have been asked to yourself and other persons who were in
subordinate positions and I would like to go into this in
some detail to sketch the situation in the military context.
The South African police at that stage, especially in
Vlakplaas, which operated like a military unit, I would like
the Committee to understand the customs and the practices.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 110 CAPT MENTZ
If a higher officer gives you an instruction during this
period that we are now referring to, and I am specifically
referring to this incident, would you have accepted that the
instruction was given on the basis of information at the
disposal of a senior officer?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And as I have already said, if De Kock gave
you an instruction then I believed that it came from the
general staff security police.
CAPT MENTZ: I never doubted De Kock's instructions. I
believed it came from head office.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Is that how the system worked, Capt Mentz?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes. I never opposed De Kock or anything like
that at that stage.
ADV DU PLESSIS: For instance, let us sketch the situation,
I would like the Committee to understand this. Could there
have been a situation where you would meet and where the
instructions were given and then the matter was discussed
and then you would ask questions, you cross-examine the
commanding officer to make sure that his information was
correct. Would that have been a possible scenario?
CAPT MENTZ: I don't know, nobody ever questioned De Kock in
my presence. We accepted that it came from head office. I
never cross-questioned him.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And during your training, was that what you
were taught, that instructions work in this way?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE WILSON: And during your training as a policeman were
you not told to obey the law?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, but these were different circumstances.
JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but you knew that this was not legal
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 111 CAPT MENTZ
actions done by policemen during the course of their duties,
didn't you?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Capt Mentz, if,
for instance, you were to launch your own enquiry as a
result of this information or your own investigation, would
it firstly have been possible for you in your position to
get information from the informers in the Western Transvaal,
acting on your own?
CAPT MENTZ: No, because then I would have had to say to
them no, you wait, just wait, don't do anything, I am now
going to get into my car, drive to Western Transvaal and I
want to get insight into all these things. It never
happened and I couldn't do it.
ADV DU PLESSIS: What would your commanding officer's
reactions have been if you had tried to do something like
that?
CAPT MENTZ: That I didn't trust them or the security branch
or the police. They would have worked me out. I would
then have constituted a security risk for them.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, at that stage did you know
about operations abroad done by the South African forces,
Defence Force and Police?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you at that stage aware of the fact
that South African Defence Force operated in South West
Africa and in Angola?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know about the police unit Koevoet
in South West Africa?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 112 CAPT MENTZ
ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know how they operated?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, everything.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you accept that that was part of the
Government's policy, do you think the Government knew about
this?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you accept that the Government
approved of this?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson, we were never called in and
told stop your activities or anything like that, so I
believed that that was proved under the policy of the
National Party to combat terrorism.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And in that light, in that context, the
instruction which you received about this incident, did you
consider this to be part of that context?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you regard it as justified in the
circumstances?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you regard it as an instruction from
head office?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, as I have said earlier, yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And Capt Mentz, your own subjective view
about this matter, what were your views about the people in
commanding positions at head office, who would have given
these instructions and their knowledge of the operation?
CAPT MENTZ: I believed that the instructions came from
them, they approved them and that was why it was carried
out, and that it was done with the approval of the National
Party.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you never whether there was a report
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 113 CAPT MENTZ
sent back on this incident, back to head office?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Did anybody in your group involved in this
operation, were they ever repudiated at any stage?
CAPT MENTZ: No, not one of us.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And that was the case, despite the fact
that children had been killed?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, and that's why they sent us
money.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Now about the issue of the children, I want
to ask you one or two questions. Did you know, you
yourself, did you know beforehand that the Kahn family had
children?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know whether any of the other people
involved in the operation knew that the Kahn family had
children?
CAPT MENTZ: At that stage I didn't know, but now I do know.
As a result of my conversation with Marthinus Ras, I now
know that he knew.
ADV DU PLESSIS: That he knew that there were children?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, and that is what he will testify.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Where you were present, were there any
discussions about children ever?
CAPT MENTZ: No, except when we crossed the river back into
the Republic when the house was blown up, it was said that
there were children.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, you were also asked about the
possibility of reconnaissance operations beforehand to check
out the scene there. Now in the circumstances reigning on
that evening and the way in which the operation was carried
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 114 CAPT MENTZ
out, and the area, would it have been possible, could it
have been done easily?
CAPT MENTZ: No, as I testified earlier, we were not to be
seen in that area. That's why we created the alibi, the
Richards Bay alibi. If we had tried to go there earlier
that day and drive around there and we had been seen, that
would have blown the whole operation. That's why we stayed
on the farm, we were not allowed to leave there. We only
left there that night to go to that place.
JUDGE WILSON: If one person, presumably a black person had
wandered around outside the shop, can you seriously say that
would have blown the whole operation? I am not talking about
the whole mob of you driving in your cars, waving your
silenced guns. It was perfectly easy for you, from
Vlakplaas, we have heard of all the askaris you have, to
taken one and sent him quietly to just see who went in and
out of the house. Wouldn't it have?
CAPT MENTZ: That is so, Chairperson, but perhaps it was
done and perhaps I was not aware of it by the local security
branch sources. I don't know about that though.
JUDGE WILSON: So if it was done, they went in knowing there
were children in that house and determined to kill them. Is
that what you are saying?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether it was
done, I can only testify about what I know, I can't testify
on anybody's else's behalf.
JUDGE WILSON: If it was done, it means they went in knowing
it?
CAPT MENTZ: It is possible, but I didn't know it.
ADV DU PLESSIS: What did you expect there, whom did you
expect to find there? Could you answer?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 115 CAPT MENTZ
CAPT MENTZ: Kahn and terrorists.
JUDGE WILSON: And Mrs Kahn?
CAPT MENTZ: Possibly, yes, I foresaw the possibility that
she could be there.
JUDGE WILSON: You talk about the Kahn family. When you
talk about a family you would normally think of children as
well, don't you?
CAPT MENTZ: That is so. I didn't know that there were
children. But, I have already said, that if at Vlakplaas I
was told that there could possibly be children involved,
then I would have had a problem with it, but I would still
have gone along with the operation.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know how old the children could have
been or are you not at all aware?
CAPT MENTZ: No, until today I don't know.
ADV DU PLESSIS: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS
JUDGE WILSON: You said a moment ago that no one in your
group was ever repudiated, but you took steps, we have heard
from time to time, to avoid or to frustrate police
investigation into some of the killings, didn't you?
CAPT MENTZ: That is so.
JUDGE MALL: Very well, thank you. We move onto some other
aspect of the matter now, Mr Du Plessis.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, the next matter we wish
to deal with is page 104, the happening at Penge Mine. Capt
Mentz, please start on page 105, read that for us.
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I would just like to say that, if
I remember correctly, this happened before the Brian
Ngqulunga case, but I can't remember specific dates.
Ngqulunga was July 1990, I think. If I remember correctly,
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 116 CAPT MENTZ
this happened before that, and in my application I didn't
know who the victim was in this case. The Attorney
General's office, during our first session in Johannesburg,
they asked and told me it was Johannes Maboti.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, I think this mine spelling is
P-E-N-G-E, Penge Mine.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chairperson.
JUDGE MALL: Proceed.
CAPT MENTZ: Col Eugene de Kock, I cannot remember the date,
but it was after two in the afternoon, Eugene de Kock, Col
Eugene de Kock gave the instructions to take him to
Vereeniging in his vehicle, it was a Toyota Cressida. At
that stage I didn't know exactly what it was all about. We
went to a police station near Vereeniging. As far as I can
remember, it was the De Deur police station.
When we arrived there we met Warrant Officer Duiwel
Brits. He was there in a brown Land Cruiser. Sgt Louw van
Niekerk, Sgt Leon Floris. We were outside the police
station and then another security branch policeman - I know
he is a security branch in Vereeniging, but I don't know
him. He came walking out of the police station with a Black
askari. It was the first time that I had seen that
particular askari. Col De Kock told him to come with and
the security policeman from Vereeniging was then no longer
with us. The askari got into the vehicle by himself, into
Brits' vehicle, he was not forced to get into the vehicle.
Col De Kock and I followed the Land Cruiser. I asked
De Kock where we were going and he said we were going to
Penge Mine to find out what the askari had to say. We then
went from Vereeniging on the freeway as far as Pretoria and
then on the Witbank freeway. On the other side of Boschkop
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 117 CAPT MENTZ
we took a turn-off to the left and then it becomes a gravel
road. Here I want to make a correction. Where it says the
askari was tied up, that's wrong. I will point that out
now. When we stopped on the dirt road and I got out of the
car and I went to the vehicle I then saw that the askari was
tied up. I then inferred that they had tied him up whilst we
were driving. I mean his hands were cuffed or something.
At that stage I wasn't quite certain of the purpose of
this operation, what was to happen to him, but my conclusion
was that the askari had been detained at the police station
in De Deur and I believed that he would probably be killed
because he was an ANC or PAC freedom fighter who had been
caught by the security police. He then became an askari and
that he had gone back to the ANC and given information to
them. I then suspected that he probably would be killed,
because otherwise we would have gone back to Vlakplaas with
him, and De Kock would then have spoken to him there.
I can't remember exactly why we stopped at Boschkop.
As far as I can remember now, I think De Kock wanted to make
sure that he was tied up. I say here, and he also
handcuffed him. I don't think he physically cuffed him, I
think he just checked to see that the cuffs were secure.
We then drove off to Penge Mine, the mine situated on
the other side of Burgersfort, in the Eastern Transvaal and
it was the first time that I ever went there. We arrived at
the mine. It was - there was a small village community and
then outside the place there were several mines and this
Penge Mine was one of these mines. We arrived there that
night at the mine and then met Warrant Officer Snor
Vermeulen and Warrant Officer Lionel Snyman. They are also
witnesses for the Attorney General.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 118 CAPT MENTZ
Penge Mine was at that stage used for a training base
and askaris were there trained by Vermeulen and Snyman.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you - Penge Mine is also about 300
kilometres from Pretoria?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.
ADV DE JAGER: In the north-easterly direction of the old
Province of the Transvaal. It is now the Northern Province,
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct. The askari was then cuffed to
a pole and we drank further there. Later that night De Kock
gave an instruction that we should take the man with us to
the mine dumps. It is not on top of a mine dump, I would
say it was sort of a hole that had been dug, excavated area.
When we got there a chair had already been placed there and
an explosive had already been attached to the underside of
the chair. The askari was then placed on the chair and tied
to the chair.
On the way there I walked right at the back. Whilst I
was walking at the back I saw how Floris, that is Leon
Floris, gave De Kock a revolver. I say here in my
application it could have been a pistol, but afterwards I
thought about it again and I am almost certain that it was a
revolver, the .38 type.
As I said the explosives had already been tied to the
underside of a chair before we arrived there. De Kock
meanwhile had now received the weapon from Floris and he
shot him twice or three times. When I saw that he was about
to shoot him I looked away, but he shot him three times. I
therefore didn't see how the bullets hit the man directly.
Nobody told me, yes, he had gone over to the other
side, but that is what my belief was, that the man had
returned to the ANC and had given them information.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 119 CAPT MENTZ
We then walked back and whilst we were doing so Lionel
Snyman had an LMG machine-gun and it was mounted some
distance away and he then shot off a couple of shots in the
mine dumps, to make it sound as if we were busy with
training at night, et cetera.
I then continue. Whilst we were walking back I became
very nauseous. If I say nauseous, I don't mean that I
stopped and vomited. My nerves were very, very tense, I was
very nervous and I had a nervous feeling at the pit of my
stomach. I say here that it was totally unacceptable for
me. I knew the man was to be killed and I associated myself
with that, but the way in which it was done, I found
unacceptable. If they wanted to kill him they should have
shot him from behind or they should have blindfolded him or
something, but don't shoot him where he is tied to a chair
and actually looks at you. I didn't feel good about that.
When we were nearly at the base camp, the explosion took
place and the askari was blow into the air.
I was never told what the real reason was but my
inference was, and I stand by that, that that is the reason
why he was killed. My inference was that he was an askari
who had returned to the ANC and then gave them information
that he was arrested and that there probably hadn't been
enough evidence against him. If I say information which he
could possibly have given was that he could have given
information about SAP members and he could have been
subjected to intimidation, especially the black members,
their homes were attacked, petrol-bombs were thrown at their
houses. In some cases some of them were killed. And the
information which he could have passed on, for instance, he
could have revealed the identity of any
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 120 CAPT MENTZ
informers. We all ... (intervention).
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you don't know of anything, you are
now speculating. Do you know what the reason was or not?
CAPT MENTZ: Nobody told me, but that is the inference that
I drew, that he was passing on information.
ADV DE JAGER: But the nature of the information and exactly
what it was about, that is something that you are
speculating on.
CAPT MENTZ: I don't know. I continue. The middle of the
last paragraph. It must, however, be remembered that I was
a non-commissioned officer and my senior officer did never
completely confide in me about everything, and in this case
De Kock did not take me into his confidence by telling me
exactly why the Askari was eliminated, as I have already
said, that is an inference which I drew.
I, in my earlier evidence also said how I regarded
instructions from De Kock, that he was in liaison with head
office and that the generals would have approved it. I
regarded it as part of the struggle against the ANC at that
stage, and regarded it as the elimination of an ANC activist
and terrorist who had returned to the ANC.
JUDGE WILSON: You keep calling people terrorists, when you
have no basis for doing it whatsoever. You don't know what
this person had done, you don't know why he was killed.
CAPT MENTZ: I will correct that, Chairperson. I will call
them - I will call him the particular askari, or the askari
involved.
I have already said here that I found out that it was
Johannes Maboti.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, let us just stop there for a
moment with the actions of Vlakplaas at that stage. The
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 121 CAPT MENTZ
conduct and actions of the Vlakplaas people, against whom
was it directed?
CAPT MENTZ: Against the liberation movements and fighters,
organisations such as the ANC, PAC, the enemies of the
Government of the day, who was the National Party.
ADV DU PLESSIS: In all cases?
CAPT MENTZ: In all cases.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And the way you saw it at the time, were
the operations launched by the people at Vlakplaas,
undertaken by them, was it approved by the commanding
officers in head office?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's how I saw it and I still believe
that today.
ADV DU PLESSIS: As you saw it at the time, and today as
well, relating to that particular time, were the Vlakplaas
members involved in the elimination of ordinary criminals?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Were they involved in the elimination of
any other persons that you know of?
CAPT MENTZ: No, not as far as I am aware.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Now bearing that in mind, Capt Mentz, I
want to ask you what is the possibility, and I don't want
you to speculate, I am asking you in the light of your
evidence, what is the possibility that the operation against
this particular person could have been something other than
an operation against the ANC or liberation movements or a
person who was an enemy of the State?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson, it was specifically aimed
at the ANC/PAC.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Please just listen to my question. Please
just listen carefully to my question. I want to ask you,
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 122 CAPT MENTZ
arising from what you have just testified about, the
background, the way in which Vlakplaas operated, the fact
that you said that Vlakplaas only operated against ANC
activists and terrorists and people who belonged to
liberation movements, the fact that you said that they did
not act against criminals, did not eliminate criminals and
did not eliminate other people, what is the possibility that
this askari could have been a common criminal or just a
normal person who was eliminated?
CAPT MENTZ: According to me there was no such possibility.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the political motive, the
general justification you will find on page 110 to page
... (intervention).
JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry Mr du Plessis before you get there
because you made a whole lot of assumptions, summed up in
one word, askari. You said what other possibilities, what
other reasons could have existed for the elimination of an
askari. Once you use the word askari, you have made a lot
of assumptions. You have assumed that this person, as we
have come to understand what the word askari means, you
already assume that this person must have at some stage have
been a so-called terrorist, in the ranks of the ANC. He
came back, kept at Vlakplaas, Vlakplaas, all these things
you are assuming at once, once you use the word askari. I
think what Mr Mentz should tell us is why do you think this
man was an askari, on what basis?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, could I put it this way, the
askaris were not only at Vlakplaas. In some cases some of
them were placed out to other security branches such as in
Natal, Durban. There were people there who worked with
askaris, in the Cape as well, and in other cities as well.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 123 CAPT MENTZ
They also had their own askaris who came from Vlakplaas.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man have been arrested for
stocktheft?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man just have been captured?
Maybe he was, as you say, he was a terrorist, he had just
been captured, he was not as yet an askari, he was not as
yet converted into an askari.
CAPT MENTZ: No, right at the outset of my application I
said that De Kock had told me that he wanted to find out
what the askari could tell him, what he wanted to say.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh I see you got it from him, from de Kock.
Thank you.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. ...(intervention)
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you do make reference that way on
page 105, and that is the last paragraph of your
application.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, perhaps we should just follow
through the questions they have asked you to their logical
conclusion, in the light of what Judge Mgoepe has just said.
Bearing in mind the way in which Vlakplaas operated as I
have asked you just now, operated against enemies of the
State, terrorists, members of liberation movements, this was
an askari. So is it possible that this was an action by
Vlakplaas members against one of their own people, without
him being in any way involved in liberation movements or
being a supporter or a sympathiser of the liberation
movements?
CAPT MENTZ: No, no, they wouldn't have.
ADV DU PLESSIS: According to your view?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 124 CAPT MENTZ
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Could we then turn to the political
motivation. You confirm that in general, from page 110 to
page 115. And then on page 115 the third paragraph, the
second line after the word "duties", is that sentence
correct? "Although I was not a member of the security
branch"?
CAPT MENTZ: No, that should be scrapped. From the third
paragraph, "although I was not a member of the security
branch". That is a mistake on our side. This came out when
I was stationed at Murder and Robbery. Then I was not a
member of the security branch, so this is incorrect in this
application.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, do you confirm the rest of the
political motivation?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE WILSON: Page 115?
ADV DU PLESSIS: 115 Mr Chairman, yes.
JUDGE MALL: What sentence is that?
ADV DU PLESSIS: The sentence in the third paragraph, after
the comma in the second line, is the word "pligte" (duties)
and it must come out from the word "alhoewel" (although)
until the end of that sentence - "although I was not a
member of the security branch".
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: That was just included by mistake.
Capt Mentz, do you confirm page 115 to 116?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.
ADV DU PLESSIS: On whose instructions were you operating?
CAPT MENTZ: Col Eugene de Kock.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV MPSHE 125 CAPT MENTZ
JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.
Captain, page 115, the second paragraph,
"The political objective was to combat terrorism
to combat the destabilisation of the country and
also to try and combat the enemies of the State,
who tried to topple the State, including the ANC
and the PAC,
how applicable is this to the askari who was eliminated?
JUDGE MALL: What is the question?
ADV MPSHE: How applicable is this paragraph to the
eliminated askari? In other words, does he fall within the
categories mentioned here?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, if he had passed on information, as I
believed he had, he had been an askari in the police, that's
what I believed he passed on information back to the ANC and
that would have, it would have helped the ANC/PAC in their
struggle to topple the government.
ADV MPSHE: But that's just an assumption you are making.
CAPT MENTZ: That's what I believed at the time.
ADV MPSHE: With reference to this man, that is an
assumption you are making now?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, this askari.
ADV MPSHE: Now if we use the word askari and we accept as
you say that he was an askari, that would tell us that he
was on your side, on the National party's side, not so?
CAPT MENTZ: At first, the way I saw it, an askari, was that
he was first a freedom fighter, and he had then been
arrested by the security police and they had then turned him
or got him so far as to assist us, became an askari with us,
received a police salary and notwithstanding that, whilst he
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV MPSHE 126 CAPT MENTZ
was doing his duties, he then fed information, which he
obtained, back to the ANC or PAC, whatever the case may be.
That is as far as I see an askari.
ADV MPSHE: Yes, let's be specific. Is my understanding
correct, that if you label, if you say this person is an
askari, that means that he is now working for the security
forces?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes. Yes, in other words he was a double
agent. He made as if he was working for the security forces
...(intervention)
ADV MPSHE: That may be so Colonel I just want to know
whether this is the position about an askari, that's all.
CAPT MENTZ: That's how I saw it.
ADV MPSHE: If he was an askari and as you have agreed with
me, he was working for the security forces, what political
motivation did exist for him to be eliminated if he was
working for the security forces?
CAPT MENTZ: But I told you - pardon. I said that this man
was apparently working for the security police, but then
that would have been a front. He pretended to work for us
whilst at the same time leaking sensitive information back
to the ANC/PAC. That's what I believed.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Isn't is so that in fact the askaris who
would normally be killed, would be those who were regarded
as being a risk to the security forces?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Those who were not regarded as a risk, those
who were in the eyes of the security branch were reliable
wouldn't be killed.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE MGOEPE: It's only those who would be regarded as
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV MPSHE 127 CAPT MENTZ
being a risk in the sense of being double agent, that will
be killed?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE MGOEPE: And you are saying that in your view, rightly
or wrongly, the deceased in this case fell into that
category for those who were a risk?
CAPT MENTZ: According to the way I saw it, yes.
JUDGE WILSON: Is it not correct that they would also be
killed if they were a danger to the unit in that if they
were going to expose the unit? In the operations of the
unit they would be killed.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members. You must
have covered my area.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE
ADV DE JAGER: Just to get some clarification here. The two
of you never drove in the same vehicle from Vereeniging to
Penge Mine?
CAPT MENTZ: No. So I don't know what happened or what was
said in that vehicle.
ADV DE JAGER: And you say that when you arrived there the
chair had already been prepared, it was at a mine at some
kind of excavation there.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Who was in command there at Penge Mine?
CAPT MENTZ: Warrant Officer Snor Vermeulen and Warrant
Officer Lionel Snyman.
ADV DE JAGER: They did not accompany you from Vereeniging,
they didn't drive with you from Vereeniging, you just found
them there?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I found them there.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DE JAGER 128 CAPT MENTZ
ADV DE JAGER: So could we then assume from the fact that
preparations had already been made, that they must have
received instructions where you were not present?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.
JUDGE WILSON: Page 107, Captain, the second, first and
second lines, you talked about when you arrived at Penge
Mine,
"The askari was handcuffed to a pole. We then
continued drinking."
where did you start drinking on this day?
CAPT MENTZ: If I remember correctly, Chairperson, De Kock
and I stopped somewhere beforehand and we bought beer or
something.
JUDGE WILSON: Where?
CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember specifically.
JUDGE WILSON: And who provided the drink now?
CAPT MENTZ: We had bought this liquor.
JUDGE WILSON: You bought some beer which you drank and then
you bought some more you brought along for a party. Is that
the position when you were going to kill the man?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, we bought a lot of alcohol, of drink.
JUDGE WILSON: And of what sort?
CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember, I think it was beer, but I
can't remember. It might have been, there might have been
strong drink as well.
JUDGE WILSON: And you all drank there before you killed
this man?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
JUDGE MALL: Was this man questioned at all in your
presence?
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, no, not where I was present, but
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE MALL 129 CAPT MENTZ
I can remember when we were drinking there, it was a whole
crowd of us. I think that De Kock and one or two others
spoke to the man. He was tied up quite a distance away from
us. If I can sketch the scene, if you enter the mine then
there is a building and lean-to's on the left-hand side and
I - that was Snyman and Vermeulen's base where they slept.
Because they arrived there a couple of days before us. We
sat under the lean-to there and we made a fire and the
askari was tied up quite some distance away from us, tied up
to this pole. And not within earshot, and I think De Kock
and one or two of the others spoke to the man at some stage,
but I was not present during any conversation.
JUDGE WILSON: Did you have a braai there?
CAPT MENTZ: No, sir.
JUDGE MALL: The man was not questioned in your presence?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Sir.
JUDGE WILSON: The second point I want to ask you about, is
you told us in your evidence that you found this incident
"totally unacceptable".
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.
JUDGE WILSON: Did you ask for a transfer from Vlakplaas?
CAPT MENTZ: At a later stage I ... (intervention).
JUDGE WILSON: After this incident that you found totally
unacceptable?
CAPT MENTZ: Not directly afterwards, but at a later stage I
was transferred to another unit.
JUDGE WILSON: Yes but why didn't you, if it was totally
unacceptable, this sort of behaviour, why didn't you ask for
a transfer?
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I was part of an elite unit. It
was at that stage seen as an elite unit in the security
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE WILSON 130 CAPT MENTZ
police. I associated myself with the fact that the man was
being killed or was killed, but as I testified already, they
could have done it differently. They could have, for
instance, blindfolded the man or shot him from behind, and
it worried me that he was actually looking straight at them
when they killed him.
JUDGE WILSON: Was it more important to you be part of this
so-called elite unit than to do what you regarded as morally
right?
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I believed that somebody had to do
this dirty work to prop-up the Government of the day and to
combat ANC and PAC terrorists. Somebody had to do it. If
everybody had asked for transfers who was to do this work,
and that's why I thought I would stay there.
JUDGE WILSON: So although it was totally unacceptable to
you, you would have us believe that, you nevertheless
thought you would stay there to do this sort of work. Is
that what you are telling us?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.
JUDGE MGOEPE: But would it have been safe for you to ask
for a transfer immediately after this incident?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Sir, I have testified about that as well,
because then the chances were that I could just one night be
shot through a window in my home. The issue here was not
the colour of your skin, but if you were a threat for such a
unit in the security police, the chances were that you could
also be eliminated, anybody could be eliminated. I was
scared, I was afraid of De Kock.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, I know you have already testified
that it was very difficult to question orders of your
superiors. In this case you had taken quite a major leap by
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
MS KHAMPEPE 131 CAPT MENTZ
asking De Kock where you were going to on arrival at De Deur
police station, and after seeing there the askari getting
into Mr Brits' car, did you not ask for more details about
what the askari was going to be questioned about?
CAPT MENTZ: I did ask De Kock where we were going, because
I was driving the car and I had to know where to drive to. I
can't specifically remember what De Kock and I discussed, it
is a long time ago, but that's why I say I believe that this
askari was a double agent. I can't say specifically what I
asked him and what he said, because I can't remember.
JUDGE MGOEPE: But was the askari already tied at that time?
CAPT MENTZ: No.
JUDGE MGOEPE: So it was not yet apparent that he was going
to be killed?
CAPT MENTZ: No, I only saw that as Boschkop. That is where
I made the conclusion.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you earlier testified that you were
not one of De Kock's confidantes.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, during the first time I testified I
explained that I had initially been taking De Kock around.
No not today, but earlier on. Later on I worked away from
him.
ADV DE JAGER: I do not think it is very clear whether or
not you are expressing yourself correctly or whether it is
the interpretation, I just want to put something to you, as
I understand your evidence. You associated yourself with
the fact that people had to be killed during the struggle in
which you were involved between the liberation movements and
the police?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: You, however, did not associate yourself with
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DE JAGER 132 CAPT MENTZ
the method used to kill this person?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.
ADV DE JAGER: What aspect of the method was unacceptable to
you?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, this askari had to know that he was
going to be killed. Now he is walking with us, in front of
us, he is cuffed, he sees this chair. He was a trained
terrorist, he knows what explosives look like. He was tied
to the chair and they shoot him. I cannot remember
specifically his face or where they shot him. If they
wanted to execute him, I would say shoot him from the back
or blindfold him so that he couldn't see it. I never - I
felt that this wasn't right. It bothered me.
JUDGE MALL: So is the position that up to now we will never
know why this man was killed, is that it? What the precise
reason was.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, except for what I believe, we won't
be able to ascertain that, that it was my impression.
JUDGE MALL: Yes no apart from impressions, you never learnt
from De Kock or your superiors precisely why he was killed
and nor did you ask?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it might be that they told me, but I
can't remember specifically.
JUDGE MALL: So we are left in the dark as far as this
Committee is concerned, we won't know why?
CAPT MENTZ: Except, Mr Chair, for the fact that all the
persons I have mentioned have applied to this Committee and
they will testify about that.
ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether De Kock was accused of
this murder?
CAPT MENTZ: I don't know.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
133 CAPT MENTZ
JUDGE MALL: We will take an adjournment at this stage.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ: (s.u.o.)
JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, re-examination?
ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS
JUDGE MALL: Yes, we move onto the next matter.
EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the next matter
you will find on page 128. Capt Mentz, this incident took
place in April 1989 - in 1992, pardon. Page 129, before you
start with your evidence, Capt Mentz. What was the position
regarding the bringing in of weapons into the Republic after
negotiations have started with the ANC and the PAC, let's
say from 1990?
CAPT MENTZ: There was an increased number of smugglings
from neighbouring states.
ADV DU PLESSIS: What was the purpose of this smuggling of
weapons, in general?
CAPT MENTZ: The weapons were smuggled after the banning of
the liberation movements have been lifted. The weapons we
concentrated on were weapons that were brought in for in
case the negotiations between the ANC, PAC and the National
Party would have been abandoned, so that the weapons could
possibly have been used if the liberation movements wanted
to return to the liberation struggle.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you continue on page 129, can you just
please read to the Committee.
CAPT MENTZ: From 1991 at Vlakplaas, weapon smuggling was
investigated, amongst others, on the Mozambique border. The
weapons were suspected to be brought through the Komatipoort
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 134 CAPT MENTZ
as well as over the border fence. Lieut Chappies Klopper
was in command of this operation. He is now a State witness
and worked for National Intelligence with Willie Nortjé.
There were various members of units, C10 as well as from
the special task force there at this specific operation.
If I can mention some of the task force members. Sarel
Jansen van Rensburg, Ashley Crookes, Floors De Jonge and
Andre Laas. The last three were all under officers. There
were furthermore Ovambo Koevoet members. These were members
who fought in the Koevoet war in Ovamboland, and they were
under the command of the South African Police in South
Africa now. These were Lucas Khimelo and a certain Simon
Higinbamgwasa - (I don't know how to spell it), as well as
other Black members, whose names I can't remember.
Information was received that weapons were being
smuggled or would be smuggled for giving them to the ANC and
the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina vehicle.
I cannot remember who told me that the weapons would be
given to the ANC, but I suspected that it was Willie Nortjé.
The Koevoet members had an appointment with the
activists in order to ambush them. When I speak here of an
ambush, I don't mean an ambush to kill them. The purpose
was to meet them in a police ambush and to arrest them. We,
together with the task force members took position next to
the road in the veld. I can perhaps just explain that our
purpose was that when Lucas Khimelo met them on the dirt
road and when they saw the weapons and were paid with cash,
if they gave this cash money to those people, that would
have been the sign and we would have jumped out of the
bushes from the side of the road and arrested them. In the
past we already had already had such operations where they
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 135 CAPT MENTZ
were prosecuted in a normal court.
Lucas Khimelo and the other members of Koevoet waited
in this dirt road. They had their own vehicle there. They
would then meet the weapon smugglers there. Approximately
seven o'clock that evening, this vehicle had not arrived.
The command was given by Willie Nortjé that we must retreat
and we went to Schoemaas, that was the police base close-by
where we stayed and we went there to rest. We started
drinking at the canteen and we used a lot of alcohol. I was
under the influence of alcohol during the further events.
Later that evening Lucas Khimelo and his members came
back to Schoemaas. They then first called Lucas Nortjé and
somebody else to the side and the others of us were later on
called and we had a meeting. There were quite many of us,
of Koevoet members from C10, from Vlakplaas as well as task
force members and also the local security branch members.
Later that evening we were told by Lucas Khimelo that him
and the Koevoet members drove into the smugglers. When they
drove into them the smugglers told them to go into a double
track road because they didn't want to be in the main dirt
road there, because it was carrying heavy traffic. Khimelo
followed them and told us that the smugglers had weapons in
their car and that they were afraid that they would be
robbed by these people. They then decided to eliminate
these people by shooting them. Because the police action
during that stage was sensitive and because C1 Vlakplaas
used ex-Koevoet members, this evoked a lot of criticism from
the National Party and it was a problem. After the
smugglers have been shot, Khimelo returned and told us what
had happened. First Cronje and Klopper and then us. It was
then discussed and we planned the operation.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 136 CAPT MENTZ
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz can we stop there please. Were
you at all involved in the shootings?
CAPT MENTZ: No, I wasn't, I was only present, I wasn't
present there, I was only present afterwards.
ADV DU PLESSIS: In other words what you are saying happened
there, is based on what you heard.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please continue.
CAPT MENTZ: During this discussion it was decided that it
would create a problem if it was mentioned that the Ovambo
Koevoet members shot the smugglers, because at that stage
there were various rumours that the security police were
involved in so-called Third Force activities and
specifically Vlakplaas, by, amongst others, Dirk Coetzee and
Nofomela. In other words, the information that came from
this incident would of course place further pressure on the
South African Police and the Government.
At that stage negotiations were started and there were
negotiations between the ANC and the PAC and the National
Party and other such liberation movements. If it came to the
knowledge that the NP Government was compromised by the
police, it would make the negotiations difficult. There was
then decided that we had to restructure the operation to
make it seem as if the smugglers were shot by the task force
members. The reason for that was that they were not accused
of being involved in Third Force activities, but because it
was actually an operational division of the police. We
didn't want to embarrass the Government.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, if it had been known that this
- if this operation came to the fore, would it have been to
the - would it have been a good thing for the security
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 137 CAPT MENTZ
police?
CAPT MENTZ: Definitely. It would have helped the ANC or
the PAC, because it would have shown that while they were
negotiating with the Government of the day, that the police
were using ex-Koevoet Ovambo members to eliminate some of
their members. It would not have been good for the
Government of the day.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you go on on page 132, please.
CAPT MENTZ: I was then ordered by Lieut Chappies Klopper to
help with the reconstruction of the event, because I have
had experience at Murder and Robbery. I did this. Nobody
would have believed that weapon smugglers would have sold
weapons to five white men. Therefore, the car was taken
back to the main road.
These people were shot in a small double track road and
we decided that the story would have been that we were
waiting in the vehicle until the white Cortina came back.
The informant said this specifically that it would have been
a Cortina. We then would follow the white Cortina and we
would have approached the vehicle from the back. We would
also say that we were shot on from the vehicle and that we
shot, then shot back. It would then be said that the four
people in the vehicle were killed.
In the boot we found various illegal weapons, amongst
others, AK47 weapons, an RPG7 and also RPK and Makorov
pistols. The four bodies were taken out and put in our
mini-bus. We had a combi mini-bus so the four bodies were
put upon, on top of each other in the back and a blanket was
thrown over them. The cartridges were picked up and we then
left them. We took the empty cartridges to the road and
left them there.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 138 CAPT MENTZ
We then went to Schoemaas with the four bodies. We
didn't go into Schoemaas, but we only hooted at the gate and
they came. They knew that we would find them, see them in a
house at the back of Schoemaas. We waited for Willie Nortjé
and Chappies Klopper to join us there.
While we were waiting somebody, I can't remember who,
made the remark in a joke that one is still living. These
bodies were put one upon the other. There was a blanket
over them. It was very dark. We stopped next to the house.
I took out my pistol and shot at one of the bodies. It must
have been the top body. It was dark and I could not see. I
could not see who I shot or where I shot that person,
although I hit the body. I don't know exactly where. At
that stage I was certain that all of them were dead.
My actions there I can describe as very tense and
drunk, irrational, something I would not normally have done.
I was so frustrated and angry at these people who brought in
the weapons, still while we were negotiating - while there
were negotiations going on. I was very drunk and angry and
frustrated. I did this.
The shot I fired did not cause any injury or death. I
was under the influence of liquor. I would not have done
this under normal circumstances. The bodies were then taken
to the mortuary in Komatipoort. The bodies were taken to
the mortuary. A dossier was opened. I then made an
affidavit on this, which was not a true and correct
explanation of the event. It was done for the reasons
above.
ADV DU PLESSIS: The specific reasons you mention here, are
these the reasons you also testified about just now? The
reasons about the fixing of the scene?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 139 CAPT MENTZ
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Were these the reasons relating to the
problems of the information being made known?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please page to 135. Are these
the names of two persons involved?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's right. The other two we you could
not identify.
ADV DU PLESSIS: The political motivation and general
motivation from page 136 up to 140 and on 141, the second
paragraph, you want to change something. What do you want
to remedy there?
CAPT MENTZ: In the third line. The original operation was
- I want to take the word "moontlik" (possibly) out, weapons
and in the "in" must be "to".
ADV DU PLESSIS: And on the next page 142, at the bottom,
you say in whose, on whose orders you acted?
CAPT MENTZ: I acted on the orders of Chappies Klopper and
Willie Nortjé. They gave me the orders and therefore I
believed that Eugene de Kock would have approved these
orders, because I knew that Willie Nortjé called De Kock
before we went out to go and remedy the scene.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on the next page you said that the
prosecution took place in the Supreme Court. You also have
a copy of the - the case is still hanging, in any case. Oh,
sorry, of the charge sheet. A copy of the charge sheet has
been attached.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I see the charge sheet was
never attached. It is in my possession if the Committee
would want a copy thereof.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 140 CAPT MENTZ
JUDGE MALL: Does the charge sheet give the names of all
four people who had been killed?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, perhaps I will have a look, I
have it in my possession. If the cross-examination can go
on, I will look for it and I will give you an indication. I
don't think so, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you would
like to put to this witness?
ADV MPSHE: I don't have questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
JUDGE MALL: You have referred to these persons who are
bringing the arms in as smugglers, is that right?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, Mr Chair, smugglers of the
liberation movements.
JUDGE MALL: I want to know why you say they were smugglers
of the liberation movements, what proof is there that they
were smuggling for the liberation movement and were not
people who were merely selling arms to the highest bidder?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I know that some of these people we
questioned in the past, said that these weapons were going
to Natal for attacks on Inkatha, and people were arrested on
the East Rand who had of these weapons in their possession.
They, during questioning, said that they give it to the
liberation movements. I did not speak to these specific
four, but I believe it was concerning this matter.
JUDGE MALL: They may be lying of course, they may be
running a business, selling arms to people who want to buy
them, to ordinary criminals?
CAPT MENTZ: That is possible, Mr Chairman, some of these
people were also found guilty in different cases, but it is
possible.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE WILSON 141 CAPT MENTZ
JUDGE WILSON: Found guilty of what?
CAPT MENTZ: Possession of weapons and selling weapons.
ADV DE JAGER: The questions asked mean that if that - would
that person not possibly have supplied me with those weapons
if I offered them a higher price?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, they would definitely or
certainly not have sold weapons to anybody. We got onto
them because of informants, who - Nortjé handled them
through Khimelo. They would not have sold to strange people.
They would have had to contact informants. But if we did
this, it would have been possible.
JUDGE MALL: If a warlord or leader of a gang was interested
in getting arms, and made contact, he would be supplied arms
by these smugglers wouldn't he?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is possible, sir.
JUDGE MALL: And is there nothing to say that on this
occasion the arms that were being smuggled were for the ANC
on this occasion or the PAC?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I could not say specifically for whom
these weapons were intended. They might just as well have
gone to Inkatha. Furthermore, in my application before the
Commission I also apply for a certain event where we
received weapons from Inkatha, but from a specific person. I
believe that these weapons were going for a militant freedom
organisation. The political parties murdered each other on
the trains and everywhere.
JUDGE WILSON: As I understand the evidence, your evidence,
your agents were going to buy these guns from these people.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, and then arrest them.
JUDGE WILSON: So they were not bringing the guns in to give
to known ANC or other activists whom they knew, they were
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE WILSON 142 CAPT MENTZ
prepared to sell them and they were going to sell them to
your agents.
CAPT MENTZ: Our people pretended to be members of a
political party. I was not there when they spoke with them.
JUDGE MALL: That opens up all kinds of possibilities. If
your agents could have easily bought guns from them, the
suppliers don't seem to be particularly concerned about who
they were going to sell to. They weren't going to ask proof
from your agents whether they were members of the ANC or
PAC? They were quite happy to sell them.
CAPT MENTZ: That might be the case, but I believe that the
weapons were going to the ANC, the PAC or Inkatha.
JUDGE MALL: No, I don't understand it when you say you
believe it, we are now trying to test the reasonableness of
your belief.
JUDGE WILSON: You can't have believed they were going to
them. Haven't you told us that you set up an ambush, a trap
but when they bought the weapons the money was handed over,
you are going to jump out and arrest them?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair, and we could have
interrogated further to find out to whom these weapons were
really going.
JUDGE WILSON: No the weapons were going to be sold there,
in front of your eyes.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, we would have arrested them and
we could have questioned them further.
JUDGE WILSON: Instead of which you went off and had a party
again?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, the operation was then cancelled. It
would not have continued. We then went, we had a braai and
we drank. That was all that we could do at Komatipoort.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE MALL 143 CAPT MENTZ
JUDGE MALL: Who gave instructions to the leader of the
Koevoet from your group, or under whose orders were Koevoet
acting?
CAPT MENTZ: They were divided at Vlakplaas into certain
units. They were under the command of Gen De Kock at C10.
There were also other ex-Koevoet members who were used as
trackers at other branches. All of them weren't with us.
JUDGE MALL: I'm talking about this particular occasion.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just point out and I
should have done that perhaps at the beginning. Amnesty is
not sought for murder in this matter. Amnesty is simply
sought for being an accessory after the fact for - for
perjury and obstruction of justice. I am just making that
point Mr Chairman because of the fact that we are not asking
for amnesty for murder.
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, they were under the command of Lieut
Klopper and Nortjé.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it therefore reasonable to conclude that
when these people were killed by the Koevoet, they were
acting under instructions from Klopper or Nortjé?
CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it is difficult to tell, because
Nortjé was with me and some of the other task force members
before they were shot, we were together. We then withdrew.
I do not know what orders Nortjé gave them further on, but
I think they acted on their own, on the spur of the moment.
JUDGE MALL: What about Klopper?
CAPT MENTZ: To my knowledge, I can't remember whether
Klopper later spoke with them before these people were shot.
It might be the case but I have no knowledge.
JUDGE MGOEPE: I understand you to say that you helped in
covering up this incident because you were worried that the
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE MGOEPE 144 CAPT MENTZ
disclosure thereof would have embarrassed or weakened the
Government, or being to the advantage of the ANC or PAC
during negotiations?
CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.
JUDGE MGOEPE: What I don't understand is, why would that be
so? The people killed would have been simply arms
smugglers. How can that - I am trying to wonder whether
everybody in the country would not have been happy that arms
smugglers were killed?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, if I remember correctly, it was
in the news and in the newspapers that the Government
allowed that ex-Koevoet members, Ovambos, operated with the
security branch and specifically Vlakplaas and Vlakplaas'
reputation how they could go and shoot these people. They
didn't want - they didn't want the police to employ these
ex-Ovambo members, but it was still done.
JUDGE MGOEPE: In fact I think the feelings were very strong
against these Koevoet members?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's correct.
JUDGE WILSON: So basically when you discovered the
Vlakplaas people had killed them, it was a cover-up now for
the security police and Vlakplaas - the Koevoet people who
killed them, sorry. When the Koevoet people came back and
said they had killed them, you covered up to save the name
of the security police and Vlakplaas?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you please explain to us, members of
Koevoet were members who - were they South African citizens?
CAPT MENTZ: Some of them, but not all of them. The South
African white policemen who served in Ovamboland, like in my
case, I went for three months at a time, and we were a
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DE JAGER 145 CAPT MENTZ
normal counter-insurgence unit, some of these members then
applied for staying there for very long, for a year or two
years, and they were then members of the Koevoet team.
When I say Ovambo members, they were members from South West
- now Namibia. They then also worked with the tin units,
the counter-insurgence units. They could - they were very
good at warfare. There were also Ovambo members, together
with Koevoet.
ADV DE JAGER: Were there in South Africa feelings against
Koevoet?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Were they regarded as members of a Third
Force?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: And now if you covered this event up, was it
for the protection of Koevoet or for the protection of the
Government, in whose service they were?
CAPT MENTZ: The security police, the police and the
Government in whose service they were.
JUDGE MALL: Did I understand your answer to be that your
action was taken in the interest of the South African
Government and the South African Police? Is that what you
are saying?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, the security police, the police as a whole
and the police who pursued the objectives of the Government
of the day, which was the National Party Government.
JUDGE MALL: But if you were directly implicating and
holding out to the world that this action was performed by
the police, by the South African Police or a Vlakplaas unit,
if that is what you were going to hold out to the world how
was that protecting the police?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE MALL 146 CAPT MENTZ
CAPT MENTZ: The false plan which we had was to say that it
was the task force, the special operational unit which had
shot these people. Then no questions would have been asked.
But the moment you mention that it was Koevoet members or
Vlakplaas members, then it was a problem.
RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
At that stage were the actions of specially the Vlakplaas
unit,was it still directed against the liberation movements?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And the Vlakplaas involvement in this
event, if that was disclosed, would that have a prejudicial
effect on the Vlakplaas operation?
CAPT MENTZ: I believe so, because if I remember correctly,
just after this it was insisted that people such as De Kock
and other persons who were known to the ANC, that they had
to leave the police. I think it was one of the ANC's
requirements for further negotiations, and that in fact
happened, they packages and our unit was disbanded just
after that.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz on page 129, the bottom
paragraph, you said that information was received that
weapons were smuggled for making available to the ANC and
the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina.
CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember who told me that the weapons
would be made available to the ANC.
ADV DU PLESSIS: But you think that it was Willie Nortjé?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Now you have conceded that there is a
possibility that these people could have sold weapons to
other people. Now I want to ask you, what do you, in the
light of what you can remember, what was told to you, what
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 147 CAPT MENTZ
was more probable, would they have sold weapons to private
people or was it more probable that they would have sold
weapons to supporters of freedom fighters and movements?
CAPT MENTZ: No, they would rather - if they didn't sell it
to trained terrorists, they would have sold it to street
committees, the self-defence units and those kinds of bodies
and people.
JUDGE MALL: We are talking about this particular
consignment, not generally?
ADV DU PLESSIS: No, this particular consignment.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, this particular one. We are speaking
of this specific consignment of weapons.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I believed that the weapons were going to
these people.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Can I take you to page 132, the last two
sentences of the first paragraph, the middle of the page, it
starts with "the reason for that". The last two sentences
of the first paragraph. It is on page 132, it starts with
the words "the reason for that".
CAPT MENTZ: The reason for that was that they were not
accused of Third Force activities and they were actually the
operational section. There was already a kind of a stigma
attached to Vlakplaas at the time that they were involved in
Third Force activities.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS
JUDGE MALL: Thank you, you are excused.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, before the witness is excused.
In respect of the matter of Brian Ngqulunga, we did some
research and we got hold of parts of the record of the
evidence in the Eugene de Kock trial, and we also are going
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 148 CAPT MENTZ
to be placed in possession this evening of the excerpts of
Ngqulunga's evidence before the Harms Commission, which we
deem important for this Committee. Now I have in my
possession bundles of the evidence in the De Kock trial,
especially, well, actually the evidence of Warrant Officer
Nortjé. I intend to hand that in to the Committee, but what
I want to do, Mr Chairman, and it is going to be very short,
is refer you to one or two pages in the evidence and ask
Capt Mentz's commentary on that, if you will allow me to.
JUDGE MALL: Is Nortjé going to come to give evidence?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Pardon, Mr Chairman?
JUDGE MALL: Will Nortjé be coming to give evidence?
ADV DU PLESSIS: He is a State witness, Mr Chairman, I am
not sure - not in this application. Not in this
application. He is a State witness, I am not sure if he is
applying for amnesty.
JUDGE MALL: Don't know whether he has.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Or whether he has, I don't know. But as
far as I know all State witnesses did apply for amnesty, so
we can accept that he probably did.
JUDGE MALL: You would like to put portions of the evidence
given by Nortjé in that case to this witness?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want his comments.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: I want his comments on that.
JUDGE MALL: Does it affect him or implicate him?
ADV DU PLESSIS: There is mention of him in the evidence, Mr
Chairman. I may mention - perhaps I can give you an idea of
the purpose thereof, and if the Committee doesn't deem it
important or necessary, then we can dispense with it.
There are two aspects which become clear from the
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 149 ADDRESS
evidence. The first one is that there was a plan to
eliminate Ngqulunga, apparently and that was the - what Capt
Mentz testified about that he heard later, apparently
because there was a worry that he would become scared
because of the false evidence that he gave in front of the
Harms Commission.
Nortjé also secondly, confirms the fact that there was
a second reason for killing Ngqulunga, and that is that he
was a person who was giving information to the ANC. He does
refer in his evidence to that fact. I can point that out to
you.
Then thirdly, the evidence indicates that people high
up in the security headquarters knew exactly what happened
in this incident, with Ngqulunga.
Fourthly, Mr Chairman - pardon, I lost the point now.
If you could just bear with me. If you could just bear with
me, Mr Chairman. Oh, the last point was that there is also
evidence in this record pertaining to the fact that De Kock
wanted the people who were involved in this matter, that is
Bellingham, Botha, Baker and Mentz, and especially Baker and
Bellingham, to be tied up with an incident such as this, so
as to have a hold over them. That is the gist of what I
wanted his comments on. I can, however, just hand it in and
deal with that in argument, if the Committee doesn't deem it
necessary to hear any evidence on this.
JUDGE MALL: I think you may proceed by putting that to your
witness.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I beg leave to
hand up sets of the copies of the record of Nortjé's
evidence. It is thick but I am going to refer you to just
the relevant pages. That would be, I think EXHIBIT AA, Mr
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 150 CAPT MENTZ
Chairman.
EXHIBIT AA HANDED IN
Mr Chairman, I want to place on record that I haven't
provided Mr Mpshe with a copy of this, which I perhaps
should have done earlier in this week and it is my mistake
that I didn't do that. If he needs to ask any questions
about that, he has got a problem with that, then that's my
fault. May I proceed, Mr Chairman?
JUDGE MALL: Yes, sure.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, am I correct that this is
Exhibit AA?
JUDGE MALL: Annexure AA, yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Exhibit AA.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, could we turn to page 7 of this
volume. I would like you to read the second last paragraph
of Warrant Officer Nortjé's evidence. He says he would like
to also tie up Bellingham and Baker to certain incidents, on
the next page, because they are not yet directly involved.
They haven't as yet been contaminated, as we called it, and
he decided that the two of them - he would use the two of
them. Actually he went for Baker. And then he says
further, and he then gave them instruction, after we rented
the combis, or they knew that they were going with. He then
called in Wouter Mentz and Piet Botha. Mentz had just been
transferred from Murder and Robbery at that stage. He
hadn't been there for very long.
Now could you comment on this for the Committee, about
the whole issue of the contamination and the purpose and the
whole modus operandi?
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I don't know why De Kock gave
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 151 CAPT MENTZ
Baker and Bellingham these instructions and that he wanted
to contaminate them. I don't have any knowledge of that.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Could I ask you, were you aware of the fact
that that was the way in which De Kock operated, to involve
people in certain events, to contaminate them as such?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I misunderstood, yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Now in your case, if you were involved in
certain events, would it have created a problem for you, if
you wanted to leave Vlakplaas or to talk about what happened
there?
CAPT MENTZ: It would, yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Good I then take you to page 25. In the
middle of that page the question was asked do you know
whether people higher up knew of that? I believe they
would have been informed there, must have been informed. Is
that in line with your evidence?
JUDGE WILSON: My page 25 is blank for the top half of the
page.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes, that is the page I am on, Mr
Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: So where are you starting from?
ADV DU PLESSIS: In the middle of the typed part?
JUDGE WILSON: In the middle of the typed portion?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, it says - let me read the second
paragraph, "vanwaar af" - from Brig Van Rensburg's side who
was then the commanding officer, and do you know where the
people higher than him knew of this? I believe that they
would have been so informed, they must have been informed.
ADV DE JAGER: If you read the previous one it reads as an
instruction and the question was where did the instruction
come from?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 152 CAPT MENTZ
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I would have rectified that now.
ADV DU PLESSIS: This deals with the instruction and where
it came from. Is that in line with how you remember it?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And then the next question was, what,
according to you, was the reason why Brian Ngqulunga had to
be eliminated and the answer, because he wanted to talk
about Mxenge from Durban. That is one of the reasons. You
have already testified about that, that you were not aware
of that.
CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I didn't know anything about that.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Then he says Mxenge and on the next page he
says yes, let us assume that, let us accept that. He has
already testified to that before the Harms Commission? That
is correct. And on which occasion he also denied his
involvement of that. The answer was that is correct. And
then Capt Mentz you said that information came from
elsewhere, not from C1, but from elsewhere, that this man
had possibly changed tactics and went to talk to the ANC and
Nortjé said that is correct, that's how I understood it. Is
that in line with the information which you had received
relating to the reason for Brian Ngqulunga's elimination?
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Chairperson.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And then it said, and from the top the
decision was taken that he must be eliminated.
CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Just bear with me, please, Mr Chairman.
Capt Mentz, just to complete the picture here, on page 45
from 21, lines 21 to the next page 22, there is once again
evidence about the contamination. Mr Chairman, I am just
drawing your attention to this, I have already asked the
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 153 CAPT MENTZ
witness about this.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Then on page 45 ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Page 45 which lines?
ADV DU PLESSIS: From line 20 onwards.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on page 48 from line 12, there
Nortje is testifying about the question of whether you had
been contaminated. The question was: did it justify the
choice of Mentz, motivate? No, but Mentz had just arrived
from Murder and Robbery at that stage and he had not yet
been contaminated. Yes, well, I suppose he was, but I don't
know whether he knew that he had done something wrong.
Did you know anything about this motivation to
contaminate you?
CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson.
ADV DU PLESSIS: But is there a possibility that that is the
reason why you went on this operation?
CAPT MENTZ: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have no further places but
Capt Mentz indicates he wants to say something about a
specific page. Could you please continue, Captain?
CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, on page 45, the second last
paragraph. Could I continue?
" It was the choice of the people who were
involved, who were to be involved in the
operation".
Chairperson, I don't agree with that. You were never given a
choice, you were never asked do you want to go with tonight
or not, you were just told, you never had a choice? ADV DE
JAGER: But does it here refer to your choice or
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 154 CAPT MENTZ
does it refer to the fact that he chooses you to go along on
the operation and once you were involved you were actually
caught up in the web and you were contaminated. Isn't that
the choice that he is referring to?
CAPT MENTZ: That's possible Chairperson, then maybe I
misunderstood it.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, any other aspects which you would
like to comment on? I am not going into detail on all of
this. So please just page through and see whether there are
any other aspects you would like to comment on.
Captain Mentz, one last question. Insofar - I am not
going to refer you to each and every place here, but insofar
as Warrant Officer Nortjé's evidence differs from what you
have testified, do you stand by what you have testified?
CAPT MENTZ: I stand by what I have testified.
ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions in this regard.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, in respect of this matter we
have also obtained affidavits from the other people who were
involved in this specific matter of Ngqulunga. Firstly,
there is an affidavit by Col Baker and then there is also an
affidavit by Col Bellingham or Capt Bellingham, I beg your
pardon. I beg leave to hand up copies of these affidavits.
The affidavit of Baker would then be EXHIBIT BB and the
affidavit of Bellingham EXHIBIT CC.
EXHIBITS BB AND CC HANDED IN
Mr Chairman, you will note that both these affidavits
say that they have perused the written amnesty application
of Capt Mentz, that they confirm the correctness of the
contents of the amnesty application of Capt Mentz,
pertaining to the nature and particulars, the date, the
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 155 CAPT MENTZ
place, the name of the victim, the political objectives and
the particulars pertaining to the order given.
Then each of them say that,
"I wish to state that I will apply for amnesty for
this act myself, and that my amnesty application
will substantially contain the same evidence that
was contained in Capt Wouter Mentz's application,
as well as his testimony. I therefore support Capt
Mentz's amnesty application. I am of the view that
he has made full disclosure of all relevant facts
pertaining to this incident".
JUDGE WILSON: Does anything tie up this affidavit with the
incident that we are talking about?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, it doesn't appear from the
affidavits themselves, but I was involved specifically with
drawing these affidavits, although I did not draw the final
version. That's why I see it now for the first time. It
does relate specifically to this fact. Capt Mentz can also
testify to that because he was present when this was done.
So I can give you a confirmation that this, it relates to
this specific incident.
JUDGE WILSON: Have they been present when he gave evidence?
ADV DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, they were not present when
he gave evidence, but there was a tape-recording made which
they listened to, of the evidence which Capt Mentz made
himself, Mr Chairman. But Mr Chairman, I am presenting this
affidavit mainly to confirm the correctness of the
application as it stands in the application papers.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you again, please, give us the
reference of Brian Ngqulunga's application, what was it?
Schedule ...?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 156 CAPT MENTZ
JUDGE WILSON: 53, page 53.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, yes, it was on page 53,
Schedule 4. I beg your pardon for the oversight. I won't
say who was responsible for the final draft, Mr Chairman It
is my attorney sitting next to me, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you
wish to put this witness?
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have no questions to put to this
witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just to respond quickly before the
Chair and the Committee members are perplexed by the
envelope that I have just sent up.
JUDGE MALL: Yes?
ADV MPSHE: The Chair and the Committee will recall that in
Pretoria I was requested to obtain Annexure A to the post-
mortem report of Brian Ngqulunga. Mr Chairman, I did take
some means of obtaining the Annexure A. I went to the
Garankua police station on the 4th of March 1997 and I was
referred to a Constable Chelo Lusaba who is dealing with
this type of matters. She together with another policeman
entered the store room and they looked for the docket, which
they could not find. Unfortunately I said to her that I
need a statement from her that the docket got lost in their
possession and she promised to fax it down to me, but she
has not done so.
Mr Chairman, in the meantime, I got hold of the
contents of the envelope before you. Now these are the
photos of Brian Ngqulunga where he was found, how he was
found and the wounds and everything that was done by the
police. I think this will or may substitute the absence of
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV MPSHE 157 ADDRESS
Annexure A. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: This is in lieu of what we were expecting, that
was Annexure A to the post-mortem report?
ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: And Mr Du Plessis, have you had sight of this
document, these photographs and documents?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have had sight of the
documents.
JUDGE MALL: Well, these documents, including the
photographs will go in as Exhibit CC.
ADV MPSHE: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, is it not DD, Mr
Chairman?
JUDGE MALL: I'm sorry, EXHIBIT DD, you are right. Yes,
thank you.
EXHIBIT DD HANDED IN
JUDGE MALL: I have before me a memorandum which has just
been handed to us now. It is addressed to the Amnesty
Committee, from Mr Pik Botha. Do you have a copy, has that
been served on you?
ADV MPSHE: Yes, I have, thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, do you have a copy of that?
ADV DU PLESSIS: I do have a copy, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: We haven't had time to read this and I am
wondering whether we should take a short adjournment, to
enable you to read it as well, and to consider what you
should do about it.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I have only received it now, Mr
Chairman. I would like to take it up with Brig Cronjé and
perhaps convey to the Committee just his view on this and
his reaction on this.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 158 ADDRESS
ADV DU PLESSIS: I cannot recall his evidence in any event
as having been to the effect that he factually knows or knew
that Minister Pik Botha knew about it. I will take it up.
JUDGE MALL: Yes, whether the Press may have reported it.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, it may have been reported differently.
JUDGE MALL: Yes, very well. Before we take this
adjournment, apart from that, is there any other matter that
has to be dealt with?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, at this point in time, in
respect of evidence, there are no other matters. In respect
of the matter of Brig Cronjé relating to the Swapo incident,
we have decided to withdraw that matter.
JUDGE MALL: Alright, just let me get that.
ADV DU PLESSIS: With reservation of all our rights, Mr
Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: Which number is it?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, that is page 39 of Brig
Cronjés application.
JUDGE WILSON: Schedule 2?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Schedule as, as it pleases you.
ADV DE JAGER: What do you exactly mean, withdraw with
reservation of all your rights?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, what I mean and I intended to
explain that now, is that we wish to consider our position
regarding this application. The cut-off date for the final
applications is in May and we want a little bit more time to
consider our position in this regard. If we make a decision
to launch an application in regard to this matter again, we
will do so. But at this point in time we have decided not
to go ahead at this point in time with that application, Mr
Chairman.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 159 ADDRESS
JUDGE MGOEPE: So are you just asking to have it removed
from our roll?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Or are you in fact withdrawing the
application?
ADV DU PLESSIS: No, the effect is that I am asking for it
to be removed. What we will do is to, if we decide to go
ahead with the application, we will lodge a formal
application, again in the same fashion with the same
contents, just to make hundred per cent sure that there is
no problem. We, however, want some time to consider that
application and to decide if we really want to go ahead with
that application. So I am asking the Committee to strike it
from the roll of the hearings.
JUDGE MALL: Yes, very well. You are granted leave to
remove this matter from the roll.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, then
the only matter that - actually two matters that are left,
would be the record of the Harms Commission proceedings
which we will obtain this evening, and then Prof Robertse's
report. Now as I have pointed out to you in chambers, and I
can say that now here as well, I have had to have
discussions with some of my clients, the applicants, about
the question of the publication of the contents of that
report. I also had to convey that problem to Dr Robertse and
I am trying to reconcile everybody concerned in this matter
so that these reports can be made available to the
Committee, as public documents. I am in the process of
nearly finalising that and it will be finalised hopefully
later this afternoon. I cannot give you an indication
hundred per cent when. Dr Robertse, I spoke to him this
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 160 ADDRESS
morning, before the hearing started and he gave me an
indication that he would be able to finalise it throughout
the morning, but that he would - and he discussed it with
me, that he would have, would like to have one final short
discussion with Capt Hechter, and that is the position I
find myself in, Mr Chairman. I have done my utmost to have
it ready. I promised Monday, but there have been problems
with this.
....Page 156, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Page 39?
ADV DU PLESSIS: No, that was in respect of the Swapo
incident. Are you asking me about the Swapo incident?
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: That is at page 39.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I beg your pardon. I thought you
referred to the Gaberone bomb.
JUDGE MALL: We will adjourn at this stage to enable you to
consider this memorandum and for us to read it as well, and
we will resume at two o'clock.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, you asked no questions about the
Nortjé evidence. I am going to tell you that, if in the
interim you feel that you might want to consider the matter
and put questions, you will be allowed to do so. Alright,
we will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 161 CAPT MENTZ
ON RESUMPTION
JUDGE MALL: Mr du Plessis, the memorandum which has been
handed to me, is addressed to the Amnesty Committee and it
bears the date 12th of March 1997. In it Mr Botha records
the following, or rather what Mr Botha said was recorded as
follows: That he objects most strongly to the
unsubstantiated comments made by Mr Nortjé yesterday before
the CommittEe which apparently were not challenged by any
members of the Committee.
"According to Press reports today, Mr Cronjé
alleged that there was no doubt that I knew of a
security force plot to eliminate one of the master
minds of the 1983 Church Street bomb blasts in
Pretoria. According to the Press reports, Mr
Cronjé alleged that I publicly claimed that a
certain MacKenzie was an ANC member and that he
had blown up his own vehicle. Mr Cronjé then
stated that there was no doubt in his mind that I
knew what the true situation was. Mr Cronjé did
not indicate any source for this allegation.
The facts are that the Botswana Government
complained to the South African Government. The
Department of Foreign Affairs, as is the normal
practice, sent the Botswana Government's comment
to the South African Security Forces. The South
African Police responded that they had
incontrovertible evidence that MacKenzie was being
used by the ANC to transport weapons into South
Africa from Botswana. The SAP also said that they
had evidence that MacKenzie was in regular contact
with certain members of the ANC in Zambia and
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE MALL 162
Botswana. The SAP assured the Department of
Foreign Affairs that the SAP was prepared to
provide access to evidence which supported the
facts which the SAP conveyed to the Department of
Foreign Affairs. The `incontrovertible evidence'
of the SAP was forwarded to the Botswana
Government in June 1987 in a formal note which was
released to the Press. It is obvious that Mr
Cronjé and his colleagues have supplied false
information to the Department of Foreign Affairs.
It is also obvious that after Mr De Klerk's
evidence that the Cabinet was often deceived by
certain members of the SAP dealing with these
matters. I consider Mr Cronjé's unsubstantiated
allegations as a disgraceful attempt to draw
attention away from his irresponsible activities.
I will be grateful if the Committee could ask Mr
Cronjé on what basis of fact he made these
allegations. Due to lack of time I have no other
means, but to convey the statement telephonically
to the Committee."
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I firstly just want to place
on record, according to Mr Mpshe, the reference to Mr De
Klerk should be De Kock. I presume that's Eugene de Kock in
his evidence.
JUDGE MALL: You are right.
ADV DU PLESSIS: And that should be rectified.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Mr Chairman, may I respond to this?
JUDGE MALL: Yes, please.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Why do you say De Kock, Mr Du Plessis?
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 163 ADDRESS
ADV DU PLESSIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, I was asked by
Mr Mpshe. Perhaps he should address you on this.
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I was informed last by the person
who took the message, Mr John Allen, who spoke with Mr Botha
this morning. He says he has made a mistake, he didn't say
De Klerk but De Kock.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV MPSHE: He conveyed this to me.
JUDGE MALL: After Mr De Kock's evidence?
ADV MPSHE: That is correct.
JUDGE MALL: Well, on the assumption that this ought to
reflect Mr De Kock rather than Mr De Klerk, can we proceed
further with this matter?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I can respond to this, and I
would like Brig Cronjé to tell you exactly on what he based
his allegation, and I will call him as a witness in that
regard.
I firstly want to state that from Brig Cronjés point of
view I was asked to place on record, in respect of the
second last sentence, where Minister Botha said that it is
obvious that Mr Cronje and his colleagues have supplied
false information to the Department of Foreign Affairs, that
we reserve our rights in that regard. Mr Cronjé will give
evidence about that now, he will deny it, but that we also
reserve our rights pertaining to deal or specifically with
the purpose to deal with this allegation in a different
forum in this regard. We regard this as defamatory.
Now Mr Chairman, is it possible that I could call Brig
Cronjé to explain to the Committee exactly on what he bases
his evidence? Thank you.
JUDGE MALL: Please do call him.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 164 BRIG CRONJE
MR DU PLESSIS CALLS
BRIG CRONJÉ: (sworn states).
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you don't have
your application before you. I am going to read it to you,
the relevant part. You will find it on page 159 to 160.
You there testified, Brigadier - can you just read it to us
again, please, on the last paragraph of page 159:
BRIG CRONJE: "I remember when the bomb exploded, it may
the headlines in the papers. Botswana
complained to the South African Government.
It was alleged that MacKenzie was a member of
the ANC and that he blew up his own vehicle."
ADV DU PLESSIS: Then the first paragraph on page 160 -
BRIG CRONJE: "I have no doubt in my mind that Minister
Botha had to know what the true situation
was."
ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please explain to the Committee
why you say that there could not have been any doubt in your
mind?
BRIG CRONJË: After the incident, I, myself, and Brig Loots,
were called to van der Merwe's office after the incident.
He wanted to find out exactly what had happened, how the
operation went wrong and everything about that operation,
because he said he would have to inform Minister Pik Botha.
To my mind, to inform means that you tell him the truth.
You do not want the true facts in order to inform him
falsely. I know Gen van der Merwe so well that I know that
he would not have lied to a Minister.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Is it on those grounds that you said that
there was no doubt in your mind that Minister Botha knew?
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, and furthermore, even MacKenzie had blown
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 165 BRIG CRONJE
up his own vehicle he would have been dead, he would not
have been living any more.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
JUDGE MALL: Do I understand you to mean that the
information that you gave to Gen van der Merwe, was in
accordance with the evidence that you are giving here now?
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: That that is the information that you conveyed
to him?
BRIG CRONJË: I conveyed this information to Gen van der
Merwe, I never lied to my generals.
JUDGE MALL: And you don't know how that was conveyed to Mr
Pik Botha?
BRIG CRONJË: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know.
JUDGE MALL: The report was made to Gen Van der Merwe by you
personally?
BRIG CRONJË: It was actually Brig Loots who informed him
about the operation, because it was not my operation, it was
Brig Loots'.
JUDGE MALL: And were you present throughout?
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. Any questions?
JUDGE WILSON: Did you know anything about the formal note
which was released to the Press?
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I read that in the papers.
JUDGE WILSON: And was that note correct, did it correctly
reflect what had happened?
BRIG CRONJË: No, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: Was that the incorrect version?
BRIG CRONJË: That's correct.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE WILSON 166 BRIG CRONJE
JUDGE WILSON: Was that a note formally released to the
Press by the Department of Foreign Affairs?
BRIG CRONJË: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE WILSON: And you don't know where they got their
information from?
BRIG CRONJË: No, Chairman, I accept that it would have been
from Gen Van der Merwe.
ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier, I don't know whether you have the
memo in front of you, the affidavit. I would like you to
have one in front of you. The first or rather the second
paragraph Mr Botha is talking about reports he saw in the
Press now. He also says that according to the reports in
the Press, he now sees in the Press, he says Mr Cronjé, that
"an allegation was made that a certain MacKenzie was a
member of the ANC, was an ANC member and that he had blown
up his own vehicle. ".
BRIG CRONJË: That is what was in the paper, in today's
newspaper.
ADV DE JAGER: I am talking about the first article in the
first paper right after the incident.
ADV DE JAGER: I can't understand this memo. The way I read
it according to Press reports today, Mr Cronjé alleged.
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, then I agree with you.
ADV DE JAGER: So it was the recent Press reports after you
have given evidence.
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.
ADV DE JAGER: You must please help me now because I do not
remember, I do not recall you saying that MacKenzie had been
an ANC member who blew up his own vehicle.
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I never said that. I said that MacKenzie
had been an informant and that his vehicle had been blown up
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DE JAGER 167 BRIG CRONJE
by somebody else.
ADV DE JAGER: Therefore this quotation Mr Botha here
quotes, was read somewhere in a paper that gave the facts of
your evidence wrongly. And in the second paragraph, he
discusses what he then did. And there he nowhere says that
anybody told him that MacKenzie had blown up his own
vehicle. BRIG CRONJË: That's right.
ADV DE JAGER: He only says there that MacKenzie had been an
ANC agent who brought weapons to South Africa. Was that
not in accordance what you informed them at that stage, that
MacKenzie had transported weapons in the vehicle?
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, that was what happened and what was in
the papers at that stage.
ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle had been registered in
MacKenzie's name.
BRIG CRONJË: I said that the number plates of the vehicle
were registered in MacKenzie's name.
ADV DE JAGER: But it was not said in this report that
MacKenzie had died in the incident or that he blew up his
own vehicle.
BRIG CRONJË: No.
JUDGE WILSON: Was he one of the masterminds of the 1983
Church Street bomb blast?
BRIG CRONJË: Mnisi was, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to
the brigadier?
ADV MPSHE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, before I excuse him, are there
any other questions you would like to put to him?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to clear up one
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 168 BRIG CRONJE
thing if you would give me one second, please.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, I just want to hear, was Mr Botha
advised that he has been implicated in this application?
ADV MPSHE: Not yet, Mr Chairman.
ADV DE JAGER: Well, he's been implicated in the application
itself, he wasn't implicated during the evidence.
ADV MPSHE: He was implicated during the evidence, yes.
ADV DE JAGER: No, on page 156 of the application he has
been implicated.
ADV MPSHE: Of the applicant's ...
ADV DE JAGER: Of the applicant's application.
ADV MPSHE: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Or 159, I don't know, I haven't got the ...
ADV MPSHE: 160, no, no, I wasn't aware of it, he was not
involved.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Du Plessis?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Brigadier, these Press reports of Mr Botha where he makes
these allegations, did you see these Press articles
personally?
BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I did.
JUDGE MALL: Is that all?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure that
the witness understood me.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, the Press releases I am talking
about, I am talking about this week's Press items.
BRIG CRONJË: That is correct, yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
169 BRIG CRONJE
JUDGE MALL: Thank you very much, Brigadier.
BRIG CRONJË: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
JUDGE MALL: This memorandum will be numbered as an EXHIBIT
EE.
EXHIBIT EE HANDED IN
WITNESS EXCUSED
JUDGE MALL: Yes?
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, then that concludes our work for
the day. What remains are the matters that are of non-
gross violations which as agreed upon earlier on, will be
dealt with in chambers. Mr Chairman, I am informed by my
learned friend about the psychiatrist's report, that it will
be available tomorrow, which would mean that the Committee
adjourns and indicate a time when we are to resume for the
purposes of that report.
JUDGE MALL: What is the earliest that the report will be
available, Mr Du Plessis?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, we are going directly to
Stellenbosch to see Prof Robertse. I could have it available
tonight. I want to try and make arrangements to fax it to Mr
Currin and it would be available early tomorrow morning. We
can deal with it at eight o'clock or earlier.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, if I turn up here at six
o'clock tomorrow and you haven't got that report here and
you ask for the matter to stand down ...
ADV DU PLESSIS: I won't Mr Chair.
JUDGE MALL: Very well, Gentlemen, the Committee will
adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, in the hope
that we will finalise this as soon as possible thereafter.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I will give you my undertaking
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
170
that tomorrow morning we will finalise it.
JUDGE MALL: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
JUDGE MALL: Yes, Gentlemen?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we
have had an opportunity yesterday afternoon to visit Prof
Robertse in Stellenbosch. He did have another consultation
with Capt Hechter and we were able to sort out any problems
- all the problems regarding the report. It is possible for
me to hand in a report in respect of each of the five
applicants.
The report is accompanied by Prof Robertse's curriculum
vitae, as well as a letter in which he explains the fact
that he had to consult again with Capt Hechter, and that he
could not do that in Cape Town yesterday. I requested him
yesterday afternoon when we adjourned, if he could come to
Cape Town so that we could finalise it here and it might
have been possible to deal with this perhaps late yesterday
afternoon, but it wasn't possible. I beg leave to hand up
copies of the report to you.
Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with the contents
of the report at this point in time. I believe that would
be ANNEXURE FF, if my memory serves me correct.
Mr Chairman, the report is an extensive report. If I
can just give you a little bit of background about the
report. It is an extensive report, dealing with firstly,
post-traumatic stress, with specific emphasis on memory
loss, but not only that, as a general background. Then it
gives an evaluation of each of the applicants. It discusses
the problems that they currently have, as a result of the
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 171 ADDRESS
actions they were involved in, and it specifically then also
deals with the question of memory loss. It does not only
deal with that question. It deals with a further variety of
issues which we deem important for purposes of argument in
this regard. Specifically with reference to the general
background in respect of which the applicants operated. I
will refer to the report in my argument, unless you want me
to address you on something specific out of the report.
JUDGE MALL: I understood yesterday that you were going to
find out from Mr Currin whether he has any views on this
matter. Has that been done?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, obviously because of the
logistical problem, we had a problem. My attorney, Mr Britz
did speak to Mr Currin. He said - to his personnel. He
couldn't get hold of him personally. They indicated that
there wasn't a problem, that the report could go in, but
they said that we should place on record that they reserve
all their rights pertaining to this report and that they
will let the Committee have their view on this in due
course.
I may mention that I had a discussion with Mr Currin
before, last week, about this report and the possibility
that oral evidence would be required. He gave me an
indication that he does not think that that would be
necessary and only if the circumstances really warrant it,
he would ask for such an opportunity. We obviously, if he
wants to do that, we obviously will have discussions with
him, see if we can't sort whatever he wants to deal with,
sort that out between ourselves, so that we perhaps could
present the Committee then with a joint separate report or a
memorandum, pertaining to his problems and the answers
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 172 ADDRESS
thereto.
What I foresee, Mr Chairman, is that if he has certain
questions, they could perhaps be put by him to Dr Robertse
telephonically. It could be taped and it could be
transcribed or it could be dealt with in any other way that
would make the Committee's task much easier, instead of
calling him as a witness. Obviously if the members of the
Committee wish to ask Dr Robertse questions the same
procedure can be followed or he can be called to give
evidence. He is prepared to give evidence.
I don't know if there are any further aspects
pertaining to this, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: The way I understand it, a copy of this
particular document has not yet reached Mr Currin. Is that
it?
ADV DU PLESSIS: It hasn't, Mr Chairman. We will, we are
going to try to do that today.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: We will let him have that.
JUDGE MALL: Well, on the understanding that you have
conveyed to us that you will endeavour to discuss this
matter with Mr Currin, it may be that after you have
discussed it, you will submit jointly a memorandum. If it
transpires that Mr Currin requires the witness to be called
to give evidence or for himself to call a consultant to give
evidence, we will deal with that matter when that problem
arises.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is my suggestion, Mr Chairman. I
don't want to belabour the Committee with that, I think Mr
Currin and ourselves can deal with that very easily, as we
have dealt with other issues during these hearings, and I
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 173 ADDRESS
think we can come to a very satisfactory conclusion without
a problem.
JUDGE WILSON: Could I also add that I would suggest if that
does arise, arrangements should be made to hear the witness
elsewhere and not - we don't all have to come down to Cape
Town for that purpose.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, obviously an arrangement can be made
which suits the members of the Commission the best and we
will make arrangements to be available in that regard.
JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any comments to make in this
regard?
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, thank you, I don't have any
comment, but just to confirm what my learned friend has told
the Committee about Mr Brian Currin. I also had a
discussion with him telephonically yesterday and he stated
to me exactly what my learned friend has just conveyed to
the Committee. Thank you.
JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Thank you very much. This document,
including the letter from Dr Robertse and all the annexures
thereto, will figure as EXHIBIT FF, in these proceedings.
EXHIBIT FF HANDED IN
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, then
there is only one issue left, and that is, we gave the
Committee an undertaking that in respect of the matter of
Brian Ngqulunga, we would endeavour also to obtain the
record of the evidence that he gave at the Harms Commission.
We have been able to obtain that, Mr Chairman. I don't
have the usual confirmation that it is a correct transcript,
et cetera. This - one of our other clients, one of Mr
Britz' other clients obtained this for us. I don't have any
reason to believe that it is not correct, but I don't have
the
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 174 ADDRESS
normal confirmation thereof. But I, however, do have copies
for the Committee which I beg leave to hand up.
Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with that record at
all in evidence by Capt Mentz at all, and I will only use it
in argument, for argument purposes. Mr Chairman, that would
be Exhibit GG.
JUDGE MALL: This transcript of the evidence given by Mr
Brian Ngqulunga before the Harms Commission will be received
by the Committee as EXHIBIT GG.
EXHIBIT GG HANDED IN
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Is there any other matter, Mr Mpshe?
ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I don't know whether to
raise that here, Mr Chairman, but it pertains to the
discussion between the Chair and members with the lady, Ms
Pumla. I don't think it can be raised here.
JUDGE MALL: Ja.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Then there is nothing
more to say.
JUDGE MALL: You will make available a copy of the report?
ADV MPSHE: I have made it available to her.
JUDGE MALL: Thanks.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry, there is just one
issue that I would like to raise and that is the question of
the heads of argument and the question of judgment. It is
something that we could discuss it with chambers with you or
we could raise it here. I just want an indication from you.
JUDGE MALL: We should talk about heads of argument, so that
all of us have some idea as to when we would be able to
attend to this matter, in the absence of calling any further
evidence.
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 175 BRIG CRONJE
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, there are a few issues
that have to be cleared up in that regard.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. Well, now are we not in a position to fix
a time by which heads of argument is to come in?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, yes, that wouldn't be a
problem. I would need, I would say approximately three to
four weeks inbetween, inbetween other matters that I have to
deal with, to be able to finalise the heads of argument.
JUDGE WILSON: Would you base your argument on the typed
transcript to the evidence?
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, and that would also cause
a problem.
JUDGE WILSON: Yes, our experience in the past, I think, to
say three to four weeks might be a little ambitious.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I am a bit apprehensive in committing
myself to that. That was obviously on the basis that I have
the record available on Monday, that I can start, which I
don't think would be the case. We have the record of the
first part of the hearing.
JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any objection to the
arrangement that counsel be allowed four weeks within which
to submit his heads of argument?
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I would have no problem with that,
Mr Chairman, but I just want to indicate that the record is
not yet available, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: I understand that, yes. The heads of argument
can be commenced with, in respect of that portion of the
hearing where the record is completed, so regular work can
be done in the meanwhile.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from the Chair
if it would be possible for me to approach the Committee
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 176 ADDRESS
perhaps, or yourself, if there is a problem with the
availability of the last part of the record, and I see that
there isn't enough time. The reason why I am prepared to
commit myself to a period soon after the hearings, is the
fact that we deem it important to have the heads of argument
in and we want to deal with this while everything is fresh
in our minds.
JUDGE MALL: Of course.
ADV DU PLESSIS: May I approach you then when a problem
arises pertaining to the record, Mr Chairman?
JUDGE MALL: Yes, there is no hard and fast rule, but we
were hoping that if we discussed the matter here publicly,
it is clear to all interested parties, that this matter is
not just going to drag on and on, you know, and the public
knows nothing about when we are going to be turning our mind
to this application. So I think it is important for the
public to know that the next step in these proceedings is
going to be heads of argument, which at present are to be
four weeks from now, and if there are difficulties in the
way of obtaining a transcript of the evidence, that is a
factor which the Committee will take into account.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Thank you.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me
for one moment.
JUDGE MALL: Yes.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon. Mr
Chairman, there is one aspect which I want to raise with the
Committee and that is the question, if the heads of argument
is presented to the Committee, can we accept that the
applications have been finalised and the applications will
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
ADV DU PLESSIS 177 ADDRESS
then be adjudged on the basis of the evidence presented to
the Committee coupled with the heads of argument?
Obviously, if that is not the case, I would like an
indication from the Committee exactly how possibly other
amnesty applications might have an influence on that,
because it might be important for me to present you with
supplementary heads of argument, pertaining to other
applications if the Committee is going to take the contents
of other applications into account.
JUDGE MALL: I think you must assume that when the time
comes for the Committee to consider this massive volume of
evidence, and its far-reaching implications, that if at some
stage in the near future, other applicants give evidence,
whose evidence may impact on your client's case, your
attention will be drawn to that. You will be afforded an
opportunity to react to it.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I just want to clear this
out that I would then have the right to present you with
supplementary - if you haven't given judgment yet, to
present you with supplementary heads of argument pertaining
to that evidence in the other application that is going to
be led by somebody else.
JUDGE MALL: Well, the whole purpose of drawing it to your
attention is to enable you to deal with the matter.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I just wanted to
...(intervention)
JUDGE WILSON: As I recollect, one of your clients yesterday
asked us to have regard to the evidence of someone else who
had made an application. Could I add something to what the
Chairman has said about notification. It seems to me that
it might well be in your interest if you are notified of
CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE
178
hearings. Rather than merely the evidence that was later -
because obviously you would be - your clients should be
interested parties at such hearings.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, we would appreciate that
if the Commission could let us know of all hearings that are
scheduled so that we can decide exactly where we have to ...
JUDGE WILSON: Well, all hearings relating to incidents that
your clients have been involved in or may be.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes.
JUDGE WILSON: And clearly you don't want to be told about
hearings that have nothing whatsoever to do with them.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, but Mr Chairman, what I do foresee is
that we also act for about 20 other applicants. So I do
foresee that we might be here in respect of other
applications as well. So we would like to have a schedule
of all hearings that are scheduled so that we can decide.
We will take it up with the Commission.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. Alright. This brings to a conclusion the
proceedings this morning, Mr Mpshe?
ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman, thank you.
JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, is the position that the
Committee's next public hearing is going to be in East
London on Monday morning?
ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MALL: Very well. The Committee now adjourns and if
there are any further developments that impact on this
particular application, notice to all interested parties
will be given. You will make a copy of your heads of
argument insofar as they are relevant to Mr Currin's client
as well.
ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, MR Chairman, I will make available a
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ADV DU PLESSIS 179 ADDRESS
copy of my heads of argument to Mr Currin, and I will also
endeavour to make it available to Mr Visser, if he should be
interested and Mrs Kruger and anybody else who appeared
during the hearings.
JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Thank you very much. The Committee
adjourns.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
