Amnesty Hearings

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the indulgence yesterday, I have had the application translated. I have provided it to the various parties and I've given it to the official interpreters to make sure that it's been done accurately and requested that should they have any problems with it then they bring it to the attention of the Committee. I'm therefore now in a position to proceed with the evidence of the third applicant, that is Jabulani Doda Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather you're not going to substitute it for the alleged translation on the record, so should we call this E, Exhibit E?

MR WILLS: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I may say that one of the members of the Committee has already taken steps to endeavour to ensure that the translations are checked a little more carefully in future, we regret that you have been put through these difficulties.

MR LAX: Mr Wills are you - this monitory report that was handed to us, do you want to introduce that as well?

MR WILLS: Yes I may as well introduce that as well. I have again provided this, this is a copy of the Natal Monitor which is a summary of the political violence in Natal and it's Volume 2, numbers 3 and 4 and it's for the period April and May 1992. I'd like that to be handed in as Exhibit F.

CHAIRPERSON: F.

MR WILLS: I will specifically be raising this when my colleague, the evidence leader, introduces witnesses to substantiate the allegation that there wasn't any violence in the area at that time. Thank you.

MR WILLS: Could the witness please be sworn in, the third applicant?

MR LAX: Mr Cele, can you hear me properly? If you can please switch on your microphone, the red button?

Thank you.

JABULANI DODA CELE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Cele, you filled in an application form for amnesty on the prescribed form whilst you were in prison and you attested to this on the 26th day of November 1996 at Westville Prison. Now do you recall that?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents contained therein are correct? Do you stand by those contents?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, for the record the original Zulu version appears at pages 8 to 17 of the record and for record purposes our translation is Exhibit E and the official Truth Commission translation appears at pages 1 - 7 of the record.

I will be utilising Exhibit E in the main, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Cele, you've heard the evidence of your comrades and your co-applicants in this matter and particularly the detailed version of the attack given by the first witness, Mr Shange. Do you stand by what Mr Shange says or do you have anything that you would like to say about the evidence which he gave?

MR CELE: I confirm what Mr Shange attested to.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Shange testified to the effect that you were a guard and that you stood some distance away at a higher level to guard while the attack, while the other four people attacked the bus itself. Do you agree to that?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And Mr Shange said that you did not in fact fire any shots at the bus, is that correct?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: But I take it after having read your amnesty application form that you associated yourself fully with the activities of the other persons who did in fact shoot at the bus?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me Mr Shange, when were you born?

MR CELE: In 1974.

MR WILLS: And where were you born?

MR CELE: At Umbunbulo.

MR WILLS: And where were you residing at the time of the attack or should I rather say where did you consider your home to be?

MR CELE: It's Mashawase.

MR WILLS: And now were you residing there at the time of the attack?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: We've heard evidence that certain persons were forced to flee the area?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me what your position was?

MR CELE: That happened to me as well. On a Saturday morning we heard that there would be a meeting at the chief's kraal, I went to a following on that day. I heard that after I had left there was fighting that broke out in the area.

MR WILLS: I'm asking you Mr Shange, if you stayed living in the area or did you have to flee the area?

MR CELE: I was supposed to leave the area.

MR WILLS: And now why were you forced to leave the area?

MR CELE: It was the IFP that forced us to leave.

MR WILLS: Why? Please just relax and tell us, you don't have to be so nervous, just tell us exactly the circumstances surrounding why you had to leave the area?

MR CELE: When the meeting broke up at the chief's kraal, the people who had attended the meeting decided that they did not want any comrades in the area any more so they attacked them and that is how we got to leave the area.

MR WILLS: Now when you say we, can you estimate from your area how many people were involved in this flight or this - how many people left, just roughly?

MR CELE: About 200.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr - the first witness, Mr Shange, gave evidence that there were approximately 200 refugees from the two areas, that's Mkwali and the area where you came from living at Umbagaba at the time of the attack. Are you aware of that?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And you confirm that?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now if the Committee would just bear with me very shortly?

You come from the Mashawase area, is that right?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now that adjoins another area called Mkwali area?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to me from the evidence that these areas are very close together. Is that right?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: In fact there's been evidence to the effect that the only reason they're given different names is because there's two schools, the one is called the Mkwali school and the other ones called the Mashawase School, is that right?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you've testified to the effect that you were forced to leave the Mashawase area, you and others?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you have knowledge of whether or not the same thing happened in regard to the Mkwali area?

MR CELE: I am not absolutely certain of what happened but the comrades were also attacked there when they left the area.

MR WILLS: Where did you go to school.

MR CELE: At Dimane in Mkwali.

MR WILLS: And what educational standard did you reach before leaving school?

MR CELE: Standard 6.

MR WILLS: And how old were you when you left school or what year was it when you left school?

MR CELE: I left in 1990.

MR WILLS: And when did you become a member of the ANC?

MR CELE: In 1992.

MR WILLS: Now why did you become a member of the ANC?

MR CELE: The reason that I joined ANC is that I realised that it was an organisation that was involved in the fight for human rights.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person called Hamilton Gumede?

MR CELE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Do you know where he's from?

MR CELE: At Mkwali.

MR WILLS: And do you know what political party he is affiliated to?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Well tell the Committee?

MR CELE: He is an IFP supporter.

MR WILLS: And how do you know that?

MR CELE: I know that because the people who were with him were fighting stayed at his house.

MR WILLS: Now in relation to this attack, you were requested by the police to make a statement which amounted to a confession and was accepted as such by the judge in your trial, is that correct? You made this on the 22 May 1992 before a Magistrate in Durban?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And Mr Chairperson, I'd like to - this is one of the documents we were handed at lunch yesterday. I'd like to hand this in as Exhibit G.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which one is this?

MR WILLS: This is the one that's got Amanzimtoti CR number on the top and it's got - it's Exhibit R of that docket?

CHAIRPERSON: R?

MR WILLS: Yes.

Now you made this statement and did you make this statement freely and voluntarily?

MR CELE: I was not forced.

MR WILLS: And you say basically in this statement after paragraph 17 and I've been through this with you prior to you coming in to testify, you tell us essentially what happened and is this in fact the truth?

MR CELE: Yes but there was a mistake that was committed somewhere in the statement.

MR WILLS: And what was that?

MR CELE: That referred to who ordered the people to alight from the bus, that is where the mistake was committed.

MR WILLS: And what is the correct version as far as your memory serves you at this point in time?

MR CELE: What happened is Nsandene, myself, Jabulani Ngubane and Jaman Selego, ...(indistinct) Shange.

MR WILLS: Yes carry on?

MR CELE: and Senso Mtolo, we stopped the bus, Ngobo, Sandene, Jabulani Ngubane and John Seleko were the people who surrounded the bus and the people who stopped the bus was Sani and Sandene was on the side of the bus together with Jabulani Ngubane and John Seleko and Sandene shouted that woman should alight and that was when he shot at the top of the bus and that is when the women screamed and they got off the bus and that was when those two men were killed.

MR WILLS: Yes, so basically what you're saying is that apart from the fact that you say Sandene ordered the females to leave, you're now saying that it was Ntandene that ordered the females to leave but apart from that this statement is basically correct?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now there has been a question regarding - which I think emanates from the second witnesses testimony as regards whether or not Master Shange had anything to do with the attackers regards giving the orders about the attack. Can you comment on that?

MR CELE: Yes, I can.

MR WILLS: Well please tell us?

MR CELE: No one instructed us to attack the bus, that was something we decided amongst ourselves.

MR WILLS: Yes and that is in fact what you say three times in your statement which was made well before - statement that was made in 1996, is that right and for that purpose Mr Chairperson, I refer to the application form at various - there are three different indications.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Master Shange provide you with the weapons?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And sent you into the area, left it to you to choose who to attack?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now the last thing I want to deal with is you were arrested on the 18th May, is that correct?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And I think it's common cause that during that arrest you actually fired shots at the police and you fired shots at the police helicopter which actually caused the helicopter some damage, is that correct?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And as I understand your amnesty application form, in answer to question 9a(i) you refer to two dates, you refer to the 27th of the fourth, which is the date of the attack on the bus and the 18th of the fifth which is the date of your arrest. Is it not so that you're also applying for amnesty as regards the events that occurred at the time of your arrest?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you just briefly tell the Committee what happened when you were arrested?

MR CELE: On that day I was with Jabulani and Umsaan Msomi and we were transporting these guns to Jabulani's home. Before we got there we were travelling in an area called Frensa and the police approached, they fired at us and we returned fire. We ran away and they chased after us even using a helicopter. I then realised that the most troublesome problematic of all was the helicopter and I shot at it.

MR WILLS: Can you just slow down because there are Committee members taking notes, but carry on?

MR CELE: After I shot at the helicopter I was shot by the police who were on the ground.

MR WILLS: Yes and what happened to the helicopter do you know?

MR CELE: It was hit and it actually dropped onto the ground, I'm not sure where and after I'd been shot the police came to me and they assaulted me on the head and as well as on the rest of my body and we were locked up in the police van.

MR WILLS: Now do you know if anybody was injured as a result of this helicopter dropping from the sky?

MR CELE: No, as far as I'm concerned no one was injured because we hit the helicopter wing.

MR WILLS: Yes, now do you know if any of the policemen on the ground were injured as a result of you shooting at them?

MR CELE: As far as I know I don't think any of them were injured.

MR WILLS: Now my understanding is that you were in fact charged with the events of that day separately to the charge in the attack on the bus, is that correct, you were brought before court but that charges were eventually withdrawn against you for some reason which you're not sure of?

MR CELE: That is so.

MR WILLS: And you think that the charges related to damaging the helicopter, is that right?

MR CELE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: You think, you're of the opinion yourself that, although you're not sure, that the charges related to something to do with damaging the helicopter?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: I would request that at some stage you let us have in writing what you think your client is applying for amnesty for, the precise offences and not leave it to our imagination.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I have sort of prepared something for argument but I have in fact tried to establish the offence relating to the helicopter but clearly they are offences of resisting arrest, attempted murder, relating to that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Unlawful possession of a firearm, unlawful possession of ammunition?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of gun were you carrying on that day?

MR CELE: I had an AK47 and a hand grenade.

MR LAX: Mr Wills the helicopter would obviously be malicious injury to property?

MR WILLS: Thank you.

MR LAX: In the main charge sheet, in the indictment in the main matter, that is the murder matter involving the bus attack, you'll notice the formulation of the charges with specific reference to the Arms and Ammunition Act and the date there is the 18th May. That will probably assist you when you prepare something for us at a later stage. Look at page 91, it deals with both, in fact all three, rifle, ammunition, hand grenade.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Cele, you have testified that you knew of no violence in Nkwali except for the attacks that were carried out on your comrades, is that so?

MR CELE: Yes I did not know about the violence in Nkwali but Mr Mtolo was attacked there.

MS MTANGA: Is it possible that the people who attacked Mr Mtolo and the comrades you mentioned or you referred to could have been people coming from Mashawase where there was violence?

MR CELE: No, when Mtolo was attacked, a comrade was around and he said that he had seen somebody from Nkwalu and a certain Mr Gumede and that is how we realised that the people from Nkwalu were collaborating with those from Mashawase.

MS MTANGA: Is it also possible that because the attacks were confined on certain people that certain members of the community would not be aware of the attacks?

MR CELE: Everybody knew what was happening there because we were attacked and we had to leave the area.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware of any faction fights that were going on to this attack by yourselves in the area of Mashawase?

MR CELE: Yes I am aware or that there were faction fights but those had long been over before the political violence started.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cele, Mr Gumede is going to testify that he was never an IFP member and in fact - can I go on? And in fact in his knowledge the violence that was going on in Mashawase was a faction fight that was going on and that your group, the group of people who left for Umgababa were not ANC members, they were assisted by ANC coming from Umgababa and that's how they became affiliated to the ANC meaning prior to going to Umgababa they were not ANC. What is your comment on this?

MR CELE: I will say he's mistaken.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, that is the case for the applicants.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We have not been here very long, I speak now of the Members of the Committee and I think perhaps the legal representatives that I am quite sure that the interpreters and the people in the audience have been here for some considerable time and I think it would only be right that we take the adjournment now at 11 o'clock which is the normal time so they can leave for a few minutes if they wish to.

We'll take a short adjournment now till 11H15.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. I will be calling two witnesses. The first witness will be Bantu Hamilton Gumede and my second witness will be Anna Elizabeth Ndlovu. Both witnesses gave evidence in court and their statements are in the bundle. Before I go ahead with their evidence, I would like to put on record that we have more than fifteen victims in this matter but only eight families are attended, so those are the people that I'm representing and I'll give their names for the record.

MR LAX: Don't you in fact represent all of them in the absence of the balance in any event?

MS MTANGA: Only the ones who are here.

MR LAX: Ja but in the interest of the balance who are not here wouldn't you have some sort of subsidiary duty to represent their interests in any event?

MS MTANGA: That is so, okay. Alright then, I will came Mr Hamilton Bantu Gumede.

MR LAX: His statement's at page 191 is it?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, with your permission could I request that I just move to the other side and sit next to the applicants, I'm not a position to observe this witness or question him from my present position? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no need for the applicants to sit with loudspeakers in front of them now, I think you can sit there and they can move off to the side. I would recommend though that you take your chair with you.

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Gumede, will you please tell this Committee where you come from?

MR GUMEDE: From Mkwali at Towane.

MS MTANGA: For how long have you lived at Mkwali?

MR GUMEDE: Since I was born, I was born there and I grew up there, I never left the place.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware of the attack that was discussed in this hearing, the attack on the bus that the applicants are applying for?

MR GUMEDE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this Committee were you at any time involved in the bus or do you know anything about that attack or how were you involved in this attack?

MR GUMEDE: When the bus was attacked I was inside the bus. I don't know whether you want me to explain about the attack itself?

MS MTANGA: Okay, you can stop there Mr Gumede. On page 191 of the bundle, Chairperson, is the statement of Mr Gumede that he gave to the police and it was the basis of his evidence in court. Do you confirm, Mr Gumede, that this was the statement that you gave to the police?

MR GUMEDE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: You have read it and understood it?

MR LAX: Have you read it to him Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes I've read it to him Mr Chairperson, he confirmed it's his statement.

Mr Gumede, you have heard the evidence of the applicants and they'll testify that there was violence in Mkwali and Mashawase and that is the reason why the men in the bus you were riding were attacked because to them you were one of the attackers and you were also involved in the attack of Mr Mtolo. What is your comment on this?

MR GUMEDE: This is no lies, there was no violence at Mkwali. Even Mashawase, the violence wasn't there even though people were fighting each other but it wasn't political. Can I proceed?

MS MTANGA: Why do you say it was not political, the violence in Mashawase was not political?

MR GUMEDE: People were fighting at Mashawase in 1990, they were fighting because of the demarcation. People died there, the last person who died there was Master Shange's brother. After the court intervened, we realised that some people who were staying there didn't like the resolution because they've lost their loved ones or their family members. Therefore they continued fighting and this led to some people leaving the area. Some of them went to Umgababa. At that time there was no political conflict it was just the demarcation of the area.

MR LAX: Can I just stop you there, what do you mean the demarcation of the area? What exactly are you talking about?

MR GUMEDE: I'm referring to it was just faction fights.

MR LAX: Yes, you've indicated between this group and that group but you haven't said what was ...[intervention]

MR GUMEDE: People from Englenweni and people from Mashawase were fighting.

MR LAX: Just give us the first name please?

MR GUMEDE: Englenweni.

MR LAX: And what was the fight about?

MR GUMEDE: It was just conflict.

MR LAX: Yes but conflict over what?

MR GUMEDE: I'm not sure why there were conflicts but surely it wasn't political.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know why there was fighting but you're prepared to say on oath it wasn't political?

MR GUMEDE: Not that I don't know, it is just because I don't remember because it has been a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't remember? Fighting had disturbed your district like this?

MR GUMEDE: Yes it disturbed our communities.

MR LAX: Now you've told us it was about demarcation but you can't remember what it was really about?

MR GUMEDE: Yes.

MR LAX: Carry on Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware of a group of people coming from Mashawase that lived in the bush, the group of refugees who had fled violence in Mashawase?

MR GUMEDE: No, I don't know the people who were staying in the forest.

MS MTANGA: Were you also aware of the attack of the killing of Mr Mtolo at the time the bus was attacked, were you aware that this attack had taken place before the attack on the bus?

MR GUMEDE: Yes I heard about that, that Mtolo was attacked before the attack of the bus. I didn't know how he was attacked because he's not my neighbour.

MS MTANGA: Where did Mtolo live?

MR GUMEDE: He was staying at Mkwali next to ...(indistinct).

MS MTANGA: Mr Gumede, did you belong to any political organisation and if so, which one?

MR GUMEDE: I am not a member of any political organisation even when we were attacked I wasn't a member of any political organisation.

MR LAX: The question was, was Mr Mtolo a member of any political organisation?

MS MTANGA: No I asked him. Mr Lax, my question was, was he a member of a political organisation.

MR LAX: Sorry, it came across as if you were asking him about Mtolo, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: He is now being asked about Mtolo and says he doesn't know. You don't know if Mr Mtolo was a member of any organisation?

MR LAX: No, I don't know.

MS MTANGA: Were you friends with any people in your area at Mkwali who belonged to the IFP?

MR GUMEDE: At Mkwali people were the same, they never belonged to any political organisation. It may happen that

...(inaudible) whom I considered as my friends were IFP but they never told me.

MS MTANGA: The applicants have testified that Mashawase and Mkwali were IFP strongholds, do you refute this?

MR GUMEDE: No, it's not true.

MS MTANGA: Therefore as far as you know Mkwali was not an IFP stronghold?

MR GUMEDE: In my knowledge I don't remember any political organisation at Mkwali whether ANC or IFP, there aren't any.

MS MTANGA: Who was the Chief of Mkwali, Mr Gumede? At the time of 1992 who was the Chief of Mkwali?

MR GUMEDE: It was Charles Mglengwa is the chief of the whole area.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware at the time of a meeting that was called by Chief Mglengwa where he addressed people and he mentioned that ANC people should be driven away from the area?

MR GUMEDE: No I didn't know that or we didn't know that at Mkwali. We never attended any meeting at Mkwali.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware at any time of the Chief's political affiliation?

MR GUMEDE: No.

MS MTANGA: The applicants have testified that you were involved in the attack of Mr Mtolo and you harboured IFP people in your house in 1992 or 1991, what do you say to this?

MR GUMEDE: This is blue lies, I feel sad about this. The sad thing is that I can't even find the person who told these three applicants that I was there when Mtolo's house was attacked. I was never involved in this and for sometime I didn't have a house, how possible would I have harboured people in my place, this is real blue lies.

MS MTANGA: In the period of 1991 and 1992 where did you live, Mr Gumede?

MR GUMEDE: I was staying at Mkwali where I'm residing at the moment.

MS MTANGA: You have just said you didn't have a house?

MR GUMEDE: Yes that's true, I was staying in my father's house.

MS MTANGA: So is it your evidence that you never harboured any IFP people in your house, in your father's house?

MR GUMEDE: That's true, I never harboured any IFP members in my father's house.

MS MTANGA: That is all I want to ask Mr Gumede, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to ask Mr Gumede any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Just briefly, thanks Mr Chairperson.

Mr Gumede, do you know Dolele Doris Mgwazi who lives in your area in Mkwali location? I'm referring to the statement at page 151 of the bundle.

MR GUMEDE: Yes I do know Dolele.

MR WILLS: Is she an honest person or would she tell the police lies when she makes a statement?

MR GUMEDE: I wouldn't tell, she's not someone I know very closely.

MR WILLS: Well can you explain why she says and I'm quoting from page 152 of the record when referring to Mkwali, she says and I quote in paragraph 6 midway down

"In the area in which I'm residing it is ruled by the IFP political association"

This statement was made in May 1992. I think she'll be the one who can explain that, maybe it's because she likes IFP herself.

MR WILLS: Do you know Zinzeli Simon Gumede?

MR GUMEDE: No, I don't know him.

MR WILLS: Do you know where Dumazweni Store is?

MR GUMEDE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Which area is that in?

MR GUMEDE: Mkwali.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me why he would say on page 154 in his statement to the police

"In the area in which I'm residing is ruled by the IFP political organisation"

MR GUMEDE: I think she'll be the one who can explain things, maybe she likes IFP.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, out of fairness you should put the next sentence to him as well.

MR WILLS: As you please.

I'm asked to put this to you:

"During April 1992 I cannot recall the date. The reasons for my area being attacked at night by unknown people. As a result of that attack black males, Kadleza Luthuli and Mapamula were murdered."

CHAIRPERSON: That's not, he said the next sentence. What you are asked to put is

"In the area in which I'm residing is ruled by the IFP political organisation. There is no friction at our area between the two political organisations."

MR WILLS: Oh I'm sorry, I'm reading from the wrong statement, I'm reading from page 152, I'm sorry was an accident, Mr Chairperson.

Do you want to comment on that, that there's no friction between the organisations?

MR GUMEDE: As I've already explained that at Mkwali there were no frictions. A person will know himself or herself which political organisation she or he is affiliated but people were not fighting because of the different affiliations.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us why you think that Detective Warrant Officer Bheki Joseph Shabalala will tell the court and I'm referring to page 155 of the record that both parties had grown up in the said area but due to political differences had now taken up residence in the Umgababa area and he's referring to people who left Mkwali as a result of political differences, why he would say that that is political differences when on your evidence there were no political differences?

CHAIRPERSON: Is he referring to political parties there or is he referring to Jomo Masaleku and Ntande Shange?

MR WILLS: Yes, he's referring to the political differences as I read his statement Mr Chairperson as the reason why these persons left.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: That there were political differences that caused these two people to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: That there were political differences that caused these two people to leave.

MR WILLS: Yes. I'm putting this to this witness on the basis that he doesn't know of any political differences in the area and for the record this person is attached to the criminal intelligence service. Do you want to comment on that?

MR GUMEDE: Would you please repeat that, I didn't get that one?

MR LAX: Perhaps I can help you. This statement here is written by a person who was a member of the criminal intelligence service, used to be called the security branch. He's a policeman who says that Jomo Mseleko and Ntande Shange were part of an armed group that launched an attack on the bus. He says they both grew up in the area but due to political differences had now taken up residence in Umgababa. The crisp point you're being asked to comment on is he's a policeman with knowledge of this area and he's saying they left the area because of political differences? Do you understand?

MR GUMEDE: I cannot deny what the police said. Maybe he got this from other people, this is other peoples view or version but I was born and bred in that area and this is my version.

MR WILLS: Yes, to save time Mr Gumede, there are other references in the record and I can refer them to you if you so wish where it's clear that the witnesses who gave evidence in the trial on a number of occasions state that the area which you come from, that is Mkwali, and also the adjoining area, Mashawase, were IFP dominated areas and I'm surprised that you're disputing that because if you've lived in the area all your life I would expect you to know that. I would like you to comment?

MR GUMEDE: As I've already mentioned in Mkwali people knew themselves they never had to tell someone which political organisation they belonged.

MR WILLS: So what you're essentially saying Mr Gumede, is that you cannot deny that there was political violence in the area because you're claiming that you didn't know?

MR GUMEDE: If there were political conflicts, as I've already mentioned that I was born and bred there, if there were political conflicts or violence, I would know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know of political conflict or violence anywhere in the neighbourhood, anywhere close by there?

MR GUMEDE: Yes, I used to hear about them.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard that IFP people attacked others, killed people?

MR GUMEDE: Yes I used to hear about it.

MR WILLS: Just of regards violence of the area and the political violence, I put it to you that Mr Mtolo, my instructions are that he was a member of the ANC and had been for some time at the point when the persons, the applicants whom I represent became members of the ANC. You cannot dispute that, not so?

MR GUMEDE: No, I don't know his political affiliation at all therefore I cannot dispute that.

MR WILLS: And I put it to you that there were people and as I understood your question there were persons, youth, you accepted that there were youth residing in the forests but you just didn't know them, is that how you answered a question put by the evidence leader?

MR GUMEDE: Yes that's exactly what I've said.

MR WILLS: Yes but because you didn't know their political affiliation you wouldn't be able to dispute the fact that they were ANC people?

MR GUMEDE: It is not easy to know the people who were residing in the forest to know even who they are because we were not told they were staying in the forest.

MR WILLS: Did you know about the fact that there were two people by the name of Bongani Mswazi and Kopela Meyiwa were killed when they were staying in the forest?

MR GUMEDE: If you can please repeat their names?

MR WILLS: Bongani Mswazi, that's M-s-w-a-z-i and Kopela Meyiwa, M-e-y-i-w-a. Did you hear about them being killed?

MR GUMEDE: I heard that they were killed in the forest near Mashawase.

MR WILLS: But you didn't know why they were killed?

MR GUMEDE: As I've already explained that people from Mashawase were fighting each other.

MR WILLS: Did you know Bonga Nsomi?

MR GUMEDE: Bonga Nsomi?

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR GUMEDE: There are many Bongas that I know, I don't know which one you're referring to right now.

MR WILLS: I'm referring to someone who I'm instructed was a prominent IFP leader in the area.

MR GUMEDE: No I don't know him.

MR WILLS: Finally Mr Gumede, I just want to put to you Exhibit F, this is a publication by an organisation which calls itself the Natal Monitor and it's a summary of political violence in Natal for the period April/May 1992 and I want to read the reference concerning the Illovo area. It says

"On April 11, 5 people including a pregnant woman were killed and at least 14 injured when a group of allegedly IFP supporters armed with AK47's opened fire on refugees staying at an Indian temple. They had fled the violence in the Mkwali and Pakazi area where several had been killed earlier in the month."

The point that I'm making is that even a publication picks up that there is political violence in that area. Can you comment on that?

MR GUMEDE: There was never violence at Mkwali. If there were people who ran away from Mkwali I don't know why they were running away because there was just no violence at Mkwali. I cannot deny that there were people who ran away from Mkwali if there were any but I don't know why because there was no political violence.

MR WILLS: Finally, I put it to you Mr Gumede, that you do know that there was political violence, that you are affiliated to the IFP and you've come here to oppose this application because of your political affiliation?

MR GUMEDE: I am not a member of IFP and I was never, maybe I'll never be one. I'm not an ANC and I've never affiliated myself with any political organisation.

MR WILLS: Can you give us any reason why the bus was attacked? No money was stolen, no women were raped.

MR GUMEDE: This is a mistake saying that there was no money robbed, people were robbed of their money, even the bus driver was robbed, the money. It's a mistake that the bus was just attacked merely to kill the people, people were robbed their money and they have proof because some of them just came from banks and they withdrew money on that day and that money was robbed.

MR WILLS: You have consulted with the evidence leader who is representing you here, I saw you consulting this morning. You consulted with her yesterday, not so?

MR GUMEDE: That is so.

MR WILLS: Why was this never put to any of the three applicants and why do you not mention this in the statement you made to the police that appears in the record?

MR GUMEDE: We are different witnesses, each and every one of us will give testimony according to the way he or she wants to put and maybe other people who were in the bus can tell you as I'm telling you that some people were robbed of their money.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Gumede, I just want to know, did you see any people, any of the applicants taking money from the driver or taking monies from the people that were in the bus?

MR GUMEDE: No, no I didn't see a single on of them.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: I would like to call Ms Anna Elizabeth Ndlovu as my next witness and my final witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Anna Nomtanda Ndlovu?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 173.

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Now Ms Ndlovu, I'd like to draw your attention to page 173 of the bundle which is a statement given by yourself to the police. Do you confirm that this is your statement that you gave to the police and do you confirm that the contents of the statement are as you gave them to the police in 1992?

MS NDLOVU: Yes even though I don't know what's the contents because no one read the statement to me now.

MS MTANGA: Ms Ndlovu, I read the statement out to you yesterday and today and there's a handwritten one as well. Do you deny that you saw the statement?

MS NDLOVU: Yes, you read the statement to me but the first part of the statement is not so clear to me.

MS MTANGA: Okay, would you like to go through the statement now?

MS NDLOVU: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Can I just explain Chairperson, I think the witness, she read the statement but she disagrees with part of the statement. It's not the beginning, it's actually a paragraph of the statement, I think that's what she's trying to voice out.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps she should tell us, deal with it and let her tell us what paragraph she disagrees with?

MR LAX: May you can help her, Ms Mtanga, because you've taken her through this thing?

MS MTANGA: Alright, the witness disagrees with the contents of paragraph 5 which states that saw the applicants outside the bus on the left hand side calling out to their colleague inside the bus to let the women out.

MR LAX: You disagree with that, do you?

MS NDLOVU: Yes I disagree with that because I was the one who shouted first before he could say so.

MR LAX: Tell us what you shouted.

MS NDLOVU: I said they must please forgive us because we have young children and I even hold my breast and I told them that I was breastfeeding.

MS MTANGA: Ms Ndlovu, I also brought your attention to the evidence you gave in court which was summarised by the judge on page 107 of the bundle. The summary of that evidence is the same as the contents of paragraph 5 of your statement, do you also disagree with that summary that it's not what you said to the court or in court?

MS NDLOVU: What I disagree is that the first accused said we must leave the bus. What I know is that I was the one who told them to let the women free because at the time they've already started firing shots.

MS MTANGA: Ms Ndlovu, can you tell this court what was your evidence in court, what did you tell the judge in court?

MS NDLOVU: I explained to the judge in court that I was the one who shouted first to ask these applicants to let us go. I started screaming, shouting, telling them to let us go because we were breastfeeding.

MS MTANGA: So is it your evidence today that the summary on page 107 of your statement and your statement where it's not exactly what you said to the court and to the police?

MS NDLOVU: ...(inaudible)

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing more?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.

The fact of the matter is, Ms Ndlovu, that the women and the children were allowed to leave the bus, is that not so?

MS NDLOVU: That is so.

MR WILLS: And they were allowed to leave in circumstances where it could have been easy for the attackers to have killed them if they'd wanted to, not so?

MS NDLOVU: Yes, it was easy for the applicants to kill us but one female was shot.

MR WILLS: Yes, I must put it to you Ms Ndlovu, that I find it strange that on both occasions you give evidence under oath, one in the form of a statement taken by an investigating officer who the judge commented had done his job well, Dectective Robson, and then you gave evidence in court to the same effect. Now you're claiming that both the judge that's -and the investigating officer have made mistakes?

MS NDLOVU: I don't know whether it's their mistake but what I know is that I told them, even the interpreter was there, I even hold my breast to show them what I've said today to the attackers.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: I have one question I would like to ask you, just for the sake of clarity. In your statement you refer to Sutani Gumede.

MS NDLOVU: Yes, I've spoken about him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the person who gave evidence before you?

MS NDLOVU: No, he died, he was shot in the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just one question, you said here in your statement that this man Sitani Gumede said to you

"Here are the dogs coming to kill us"

MS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: What was he saying to you?

CHAIRPERSON: What's she say?

MR LAX: "Here are the dogs coming to kill us."

CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't her statement? This statements page 173.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, that's the wrong statement, I beg your pardon, it's in Mgwazi's statement but you heard that, did you?

MS NDLOVU: Yes I heard that.

MR LAX: What did you understand him to mean?

MS NDLOVU: I don't know what exactly he meant because he was trying to run away, he was coming towards us.

MR LAX: Well when someone says "here are the dogs" surely you're referring to your enemies, isn't that how you would normally understand it?

MS NDLOVU: At the time I didn't think about that because I was scared, I thought I was going to die and leave my child behind.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: This must have been a very terrifying experience for you which happened a long time ago and you were asked to make your first statement just two days afterwards when you must still have been in a state of shock, is that correct?

MS NDLOVU: Yes even now when I'm hearing gunshots I loose my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: All of us here have the deepest sympathy for you. You may go now, thank you very much for having come.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, this ends the case of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can let us have as I said as I said earlier details of your amended request for amnesty for the second incident, but you need not bother to give us that in detail at this stage.

MR WILLS IN ARGUMENT: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I submit respectfully that the applicants, all three applicants, have made out a case for amnesty. I submit that they have satisfied the requirement of full disclosure insofar as they have disclosed all the relevant facts relating to the incident which they were involved in. They are members of a political organisation. The attacked in the context of political violence in the area, I don't think that can be disputed. Mr Chairperson, on the full disclosure the only slightly disturbing aspect was the role of Master Shange and whether or not he had ordered the attack, I submit that it cannot be held that the applicants were less than candid in this regard. They had disclosed his role fully, they were not trying to cover up for him, they disclosed openly and without reserve that he had in fact supplied weapons and that he had trained them and those are offences enough. The only motivation that they could possibly have had for not mentioning his role was to cover up for him so that he could escape undetected and by disclosing the fact that he had trained them and that he had supplied them with weapons, they opened up this person to prosecution in any event so I cannot, with respect, see any reason as to why they wouldn't tell the full story.

CHAIRPERSON: Well wasn't their version largely that he said "Go on and do your job" and left the details to them?

MR WILLS: Yes, that's exactly right, thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: And one further thing Mr Wills, he congratulated them afterwards?

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR LAX: So, you know, they've associated him fully with the matter in any event.

CHAIRPERSON: Went back to him immediately with the guns they had just used, handed them to him and he said well done?

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Chairperson, I don't want to go into any detailed argument. I submit very basically that this is purely a case where both the requirements of full disclosure and political motivation have been satisfied, with respect quite blatantly. If there are any questions or any concerns that you or your fellow Committee Members have I'd be pleased to address them on that point.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll hear the evidence leader first and if anything arises we can come back to you.

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson.

It is the submission of the victims that the applicants in this matter have not given full disclosure. They have lied about the political situation at Mkwali. They have testified to the effect that there was political violence at Mkwali whereas all the victims in this matter or most of the victims in this matter came from Mkwali and are of the view that there was no such violence and as such their attack on males on the bus, riding the bus, was not justified, could not be politically justified.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what was it, can you tell us? We have the Monitor saying there was political violence there, we have numerous statements in the bundle put before us of violence, these people now say it wasn't but there's no doubt that they stopped the bus, let the women off and started killing the men. Can you suggest why if it wasn't political?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the view of the victims is that the clashes that could have been there could have been sporadic or confined to certain areas but it was not a common fact to them that there was such violence in Mkwali to justify killing of men who could be coming from Cuneal regardless of where they came from in Mkwali.

MR LAX: Ms Mtanga, there's no evidence before us to say what the cause of this attack was. There's no evidence before us to deny that there was violence in the area. Even Mr Gumede couldn't remember, he said there was violence but he couldn't remember what the cause of it was.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't ask us to rely on that evidence, can you?

MR LAX: That's the only closest thing to evidence before us.

MS MTANGA: Okay, I'll concede to that, Chairperson. That ends my submission.

MR WILLS IN ARGUMENT: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to make one point on the proportionality aspect and I'd submit that the attitude towards the women indicates that clearly they were quite discerning by letting women and people from the area out and I would submit that they haven't acted overly ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It was - that was happening on both sides, wasn't it?

MR WILLS: Indeed yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you confirm, you rely also I take it fairly heavily on the report by the Monitor?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: To support that this did happen?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That the women and children were told to alight?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As being from an outside source?

MR WILLS: Yes and I think also the finding by the judge not only in respect of the women but also in respect of the one person from Adams Mission, the judge at some point in the judgement and it is I think it was at page 106, if you can just bear with me, I've got it? Yes, at page 106 and it starts actually at 105, describing Mrs Ntombelo's evidence who had made a good impression on the judge, she described how the second person told the females to leave and that they left including herself. She described how her brother said that he was not from the area, he was in fact from Adams Mission and he was allowed to leave. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, it's also quite clear from page 132 that the judge had no doubt the matter was an attack by ANC on Inkatha supporters?

MR WILLS: Yes indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Right thank you, we will take time. I would like to thank all the members of the audience who sat here so patiently for the days while we have been hearing these matters. I trust you have now got a clearer picture of what happened in those troubled times and that they are something that we can now join together to put behind us. Thank you all.

Sorry, I think there's one matter we have to deal with, it is not as if I have dealt with it yet, we had a matter set down for hearing today, the application of Gumede which is being withdrawn from the roll and will be set down at some date in the future.

GUMEDE MATTER WITHDRAWN TO A FUTURE DATE

HEARING ADJOURNS