Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: We'll proceed to hear the application of Happy Mngomezulu and Thulani Christopher Madlala. Will their legal representatives appearing in respect of the two applications kindly state their names for the record?

MS MOODLEY: My name is Ms ...(indistinct) Moodley and I appear for both the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: For the evidence?

MS THABETHE: I'm the evidence leader, Ms Thabile Thabethe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Moodley, are we in a position to commence with the two applications?

MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chairperson, I would like to address the Committee on an issue that I think is pertinent before we proceed to the application after my address?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: Briefly, my concerns about the application being properly heard before this Committee, I believe is going to be compromised if reference is not had and evidence is not furnished by persons in a leadership position in relation to the political disputes that have arisen in this particular area of Wembesi. I'm mindful that the Committee is under strong time constraints and I do believe though there is equally an important concern that I have that the applicants be given the full opportunity to disclose fully before this Committee all facts some of which are not within their own knowledge at this particular point and that is why I make the request that without delaying unnecessarily the time of this Committee that we be afforded the opportunity to present witnesses who would then give a full picture in relation to the context and the commission of the offences that we now seek amnesty for.

ADV DE JAGER: What would the nature of that be?

MS MOODLEY: It would relate to the issue of the alliance and the issues that I would, as legal representative, deal with in my application by reference to Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act No. 35 of 1995. I believe that as I read the Section 20 together with the qualifying sections, I am going to face a difficulty in relation to the aspect, more particularly if I could read it and I think the Honourable Members are well informed of the particular section, Section 20, sub-section 2, sub (a). Any member or supporter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to read it, just refer to the particular section, we are all familiar.

MS MOODLEY: I will refer to it, you want references?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: But in order that we do not delay the process unnecessarily, I think the leading of evidence of the first applicant in the matter would not prejudice anyone's particular rights but I want the Commission to be mindful of the fact that I do require witnesses to be led and because they turn on the issues that I've mentioned just before.

MS MOODLEY: May you just explain to us how the leading of evidence from persons in the ANC leadership would actually assist your application with regard to the Sections that you've drawn this Committee to, that being Section 20, sub-section 2(a), how would that assist the applicants?

MS MOODLEY: On a very legalistic narrow interpretation of the particular section, I would concede Your Honourable Chairperson, that it does not necessarily imply those particular witnesses are going to be peremptory witnesses required by the Commission but I'm saying if one has reference to the affidavits that have been ably drafted by Mr Molohlanye and to which I've added a last paragraph, there is reference therein to individuals who would then be in a position to clarify matters because with all due respect I will say that the applicants are really the foot soldiers of what we are about here. There are elements that I think would come to the fore in relation to activity that was orchestrated and organised, not confined to Wembesi but throughout the midlands in kwaZulu Natal so I think there would be some reasonable good value for witnesses that would lend more light, shed more light on the circumstances and the situation as they arose in Wembesi. These individuals are not simply plucked from the leadership positions of any of the alliance organisations, it's simply people who have been intrinsically involved at grassroots level.

CHAIRPERSON: So if they are intrinsically involved at grassroots level as you allege, that would put them in the same position as the applicants?

MS MOODLEY: With all due respect, Honourable Chairperson, the qualification that a foot soldier does not - is not meant to demean of take away from the abilities of the applicant, is not fully apprised and aware of the vacuum in which he operates or she operates.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: When you further the objectives of your organisation and my concern is that leadership and I can say this with my engagement as late as last night, it became apparent that there was some valuable information to share with this Committee from a person who was on the ground at the time and who continues to be deeply involved in the Wembesi area.

CHAIRPERSON: What would the import of that information?

MS MOODLEY: It would relate to why you have an anonymous situation of alliances brokered at national level which should permeate throughout the structure of an organisation but somewhere between that level and the ground, there seems to be blockages and impasses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Without really interfering with you, I want to be on the same page as you, do I understand you to be addressing us with a request for an application for a postponement of this matter?

MS MOODLEY: Yes, Your Honourable Chairperson, only insofar as I might require it at some later stage during the course of the day because my concern is that my witness who I expected to be here at 12 o'clock sharply today does not appear to have presented himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you in a position to proceed other than that? How many witness do you propose to call in support of these applicants?

MS MOODLEY: At this stage two because they would be the same witnesses that I would use in both the applications.

CHAIRPERSON: And who are they?

MS MOODLEY: I could furnish you with the first witness, it's Teaspoon Bunu Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: The second witness I actually have not confirmed.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Mkhize made aware of the fact that we would be proceeding with this application at about 12 o'clock as we had earlier on indicated to you?

MS MOODLEY: No your Honourable Chairperson, he was actually informed the early part of this morning that in fact if he could be here a 9 o'clock it would be in the interests of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: So he's aware that he should have been here at 9 o'clock?

MS MOODLEY: No, I think - let me explain and then maybe you can hear where I'm coming from in relation to Mr Mkhize. I spoke with him at half past 5 yesterday afternoon for the first time and I indicated that I might require him before the Commission. He indicated that did not have an objection to being here but because he was councillor and otherwise engaged with council work, he was not in a position to present himself at 9 o'clock and then I said to him that we would like you to keep in touch because I think it is important for you to be here. I called him during the course of this morning and he said he would make attempts to be here by 12 o'clock, having taken the cue from consulting with you in chambers and there is now no Mr Mkhize and I'm concerned if you go on without his input, I mean my concern is we need to know that he is going to be here tomorrow at least.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now you are only concerned about the importance of Mr Mkhize's evidence which would present a better picture as you allege with regard to the political context at Wembesi at the time when this incident occurred?

Do I comprehend you properly in that regard?

MS MOODLEY: In respect of the, as you have outlined so ably, you Honourable Chairperson, but in addition he is then going to then be able to give the amnesty the benefit of his history with Wembesi and the conditions as they pertained then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, bearing in mind obviously that Mr Mkhize is not an applicant?

MS MOODLEY: Absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We are here concerned with the applications made by the applicants. I must hastily advise you that our concern is to make sure that we hear applications of persons held in custody as quickly as possible. In fact we have been enjoined by the Act to do that right at the beginning of the life of the Amnesty Committee. We have not been able to do that as best as we would have liked to. This Committee is now coming to an end and our main concern is that we don't want to postpone applications of people who are held in custody unless there is a very good reason advanced why their applications should be postponed because they continue to be incarcerated in situations where if the applications are expedited they could have been released or at least the applications disposed of. Now we are also aware that we'd like to have Mr Mkhize coming to give evidence in support of the applicants' application. As far as we are concerned, having read the papers, we are not dealing with people who had just come into Wembesi, the applicants had stayed at Wembesi. The applicants were actually staunch members of their organisation. They were in support of Mr Mkhize's organisation. They are quite familiar in our view reading from their application of the political situation in Wembesi. You are, however, not precluded to call in as many witnesses as you wish to support their application at any given stage. We are satisfied that the requirements of Section 20, sub-section 2(a) do not require people other than the applicants to put us in a better picture, to satisfy ourselves whether they fall within that cluster of the provisions of the Act or not. We wish to make this quite clear to you at this early stage before you proceed further with your application. If you persist with your application for a postponement, we are not likely to grant you that indulgence because we feel that issues that have to be ventilated in order to satisfy this Committee whether to grant amnesty or not are peculiar and within the Province of the applicants concerned.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you, your Honourable Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Would your witness be in a position to be here tomorrow?

MS MOODLEY: Yes, let me give you an undertaking because he said he was going to be here at 12 o'clock. I mean I can't guarantee that but I ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: So you could now proceed to lead the two applicants?

MS MOODLEY: Yes but I just want to address you Honourable Chairperson on the issue of expediting matters. I think it would be short-sighted of me as responsible counsel not to have alerted the Committee to my difficulties because the application that I am charged with is not the - I'm not saying that the application is exceptional, but what I'm saying is there are issues there that are peculiar in relation to the question of the requirements as they are laid out in the Act and that is my only concern.

CHAIRPERSON: And just to respond to your concern and we really appreciate your concern, our response is that we don't think that situation would require anyone other than the applicant to be in a position to put you in a better position to argue, really, I mean they are they ones who committed the deed for which they seek amnesty, they themselves were motivated by what they believed to have happened at that time at Wembesi and nobody else I think can give a better context of the situation at Wembesi other than the applicants who committed the deeds for which they seek amnesty. People can come in and support their application but nobody can come and give a version on behalf of the applicant other than the applicant himself.

MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chairperson, I take the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. In short therefore, are you now - can we say we are on the same page?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That we will proceed with the application?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is open to you to call in as many witnesses as you wish to, obviously, to support their applications. We don't want to prevent you from doing so.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: Chair may I just add on this point, I think it must be clear in our understanding that the applications succeed or fail on the basis of the applicants' understanding and belief, not of the reality divorced from their understanding. They cannot qualify for amnesty on the basis of an external position of which they had no knowledge of, which motivated them to do certain things. They can only base their applications on their own motivation, the objectives as they saw and understand it or understood it at the time of the organisation to which they belonged or whose interests they had the furtherance of in mind.

MS MOODLEY: Commissioner Malan, with due respect, I take the point that you make as well but I then do want to place on record that obviously the applicant can only depose to what is within their knowledge but there is an addition, not in relation to the applicants but for purposes of the information for the Committee, that myself as counsel can bring to the Committee to supplement?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: And that is what I'm about to, in respect of my witnesses ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely, you really are at liberty and we give you room to call in as many witnesses as you wish to, to support your clients' application.

MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chairperson, may I start by firstly handing over copies of an affidavit prepared by ourselves in respect of the first applicant, Happy Mngomezulu?

ADV DE JAGER: Well could you call him to the...

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, what do you propose doing, do you want to read this application into the record or it would be sufficient to the applicant to confirm it's correctness and for us to accept it as an exhibit?

MS MOODLEY: Yes Honourable Chairperson, I think that would be sufficient.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you would lead him ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: Sorry, before I even start with the exhibit, as we will call it later on, may I then first deal with the question of the amendment to matters that appear in the application for amnesty, if I can turn to Form 1, page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Page 4?

MS MOODLEY: Page 4 yes, item 9(a)(i).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: We need to move for an application to amend the acts or omissions or offences committed by Mr Mngomezulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: And if I could turn to page, as the Honourable Members to turn to page 60 of the judgement?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: And more correctly I think page 43 of the indictment, sorry 41, if we could amend the particular section to include in respect of Mr Mngomezulu counts 2 and 4 which relate charges as reflected on the indictment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: Because we will moving an application for amnesty in respect of those as well.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be possession of 7.65 mm CZ pistol?

ADV DE JAGER: Were those the weapons used in the attack?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You also want to include the unlawful possession of a 9 mm pistol? Was he convicted of that?

MS MOODLEY: Yes he was convicted on count 4.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about count 3?

MS MOODLEY: No, count 3 and 2 relate to the other accused.

CHAIRPERSON: So with regard to Mngomezulu the application for an amendment is with regard to the inclusion of the unlawful possession ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: Of an arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Of a 7.65 mm CZ pistol as well as count 4 which is the unlawful possession of ammunition for the said weapon.

MR MALAN: That's Mngomezulu?

MS MOODLEY: That's Mngomezulu.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Mngomezulu yes and it will be so amended.

MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chairperson, there is one other issue that I need to attend to. There's the name of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOODLEY: He also has, I've been instructed, another surname. It doesn't appear on the papers or in the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: What other surname does he have?

MS MOODLEY: He wants to disclose to the Commission that he's also known as Happy Aubrey Mjali.

CHAIRPERSON: Mjali? He was however convicted and sentenced as Happy Aubrey Mngomezulu. Yes, we'll take note of that.

ADV DE JAGER: Has he got an I.D. number at present or not?

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you are dealing with your application for an amendment, will you also address us with regard to which acts Mr Madlala will seek to apply for amnesty which are not included in his formal application?

MS MOODLEY: Yes 3 and 5.

CHAIRPERSON: 3 and 5, yes.

MS MOODLEY: Count 3 and 5, 42 yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The amendments have been accordingly granted.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chairperson, shall we mark the affidavit as Exhibit A?

CHAIRPERSON: Has it been read to Mr Mngomezulu, the affidavit?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you wish to read out the entire affidavit for his benefit?

MS MOODLEY: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you. Affidavit marked Exhibit A

"I, the undersigned, Happy Mngomezulu, do hereby make oath and say

(i) I became a member of the ANC in the early 1990s whilst living in Wembesi.

(ii) On or about 1989 violence erupted in Wembesi due to the lack of essential services. The problems included the absence of proper toilets whereby the community had wanted the bucket system of toilets to be changed.

(iii) Our councillor at the time was Mr Stanley Gumbi. A series of meetings were held between the community members. The youth formed a structure called WYCO. WYCO then held meetings with Mr Gumbi and forced him to address the community. At this meeting many misunderstandings arose resulting in problems between the community and Mr Gumbi."

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Gumbi, was he a member of the ANC?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I do not know.

MS MOODLEY: The Honourable Member of the Panel, I think that has just been put for effect because it doesn't really relate to the application that we are charged with.

ADV DE JAGER: So he was a councillor there and there was now trouble between the councillor and ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: Well we are going back in time and we now ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Okay then proceed to this incident.

MS MOODLEY: No, but I think ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Ms Moodley, can't we answer the questions? You put information before us, if we need information just answer it and let's continue.

MS MOODLEY: No, I understand that, what I'm simply saying ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Continue please, let's not argue, let's just understand each other?

MS MOODLEY: I know that time is of the essence for the Commission but I do believe that if an affidavit has been drafted and if something in it is not relevant then it's proper for me to say so.

MR MALAN: It would have been proper then from the beginning not to have inserted it. Please continue.

MS MOODLEY: Will do so.

(iv) Mr Gumbi then formed his own personal gang and recruited some of the youth as members of this gang. The community then decided to boycott Mr Gumbi's businesses and after a certain meeting for which the local chiefs were present, Mr Gumbi' businesses were looted and burned. Soon thereafter the IFP squads went around the area enquiring into which organisation people belonged to. As a result most boys who did not want to associate with the IFP left Wembesi and those who remained were made to join the IFP.

(v) The son of Mr Teaspoon Bulle Mkhize, the chairperson of the ANC in Wembesi was also killed. He was shot whilst being accompanied to school by Mr Mkhize.

(vi) When I returned to Wembesi after my father's death the area was divided into IFP and ANC camps. The misunderstanding which arose between Mbeki Msamanga, the commander of the ANC in the area, and Mr Teaspoon Mkhize, the chairperson in the area resulting in the ANC being divided into two organisations. Mr Msamanga took some of the ANC members with him together with weapons which belonged to the community. His group was called Amabumvu, referred to as the SACP which took occupation of the 5 room section. Following the division within the ANC, the SACP and the ANC became enemies.

(vii) The fights between these two parties reached a point where the late Mr Harry Gwala came to Wembesi to explain to the people that these two organisations, that is the ANC and the SACP were allies. Mr Blade Msimande also approached the people explaining same. Attacks and counter-attacks continued from both sides. Mr Harry Gwala attempted to establish peace in the community but to no avail. The fighting continued and resulted in more people being killed.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly give us a time span here? When was Mr Teaspoon's son for instance killed, was that in 1989, 1990, so that we could get a ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: Yes, surely, if you could give me a minute?

CHAIRPERSON: May I request because this, we don't to have evidence coming from you, you are just reading the affidavit of Mr Mngomezulu. After completing reading the affidavit, we'll then put questions on issues of clarity because if you were to respond now, it will be your evidence and we don't want you to be a witness.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you. To continue

"The fighting resulted in Mr Zuma of the ANC being killed in a bomb attack and Thulani being shot. Mr Phewa and Mr Gcaba from the opposite camp were also killed.

(viii) On a certain Friday morning, Gweni Nglovu, that is Thulani Madlala's uncle, was shot. Mr Nshlovo was taken to hospital where we went to visit him. On the way back we went to the taxi rank where the deceased approached us in the company of other SACP members. I was carrying a 7.65 firearm and Thulani was in possession of a 9 mm firearm. An argument ensued between the deceased and myself. The deceased approached me in a threatening manner and I realised that if I did not act in self defence my life would be in danger. I therefore shot the deceased.

(ix) I shot the deceased once more. The deceased's friends fled abandoning the deceased. I thereafter fired a further four shots at him and left him with Thulani.

(x) I request the Committee to take note of the fact that I committed the offence to advance a political objective of my organisation, the ANC. I acknowledge with hindsight that the murder of Phewa was wrong but I considered him at the time to be my political foe. I am deeply remorseful for the unnecessary loss of life and I wish to communicate the remorsefulness to the Phewa family."

The affidavit is attested.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mngomezulu, do you confirm the correctness of the facts stated?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit will then be accepted by us as Exhibit A. Ms Moodley do you wish to lead evidence on any issue which has not been covered by this affidavit, do you wish to highlight anything?

MS MOODLEY: Yes Honourable Chairperson. If I could take the applicant to paragraph 8 of the affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: For the benefit of all of us, Mr Mngomezulu, you say

"The deceased approached me in a threatening manner and I realised that if I did not act in self defence my life would be in danger and I therefore shot at the deceased."

I want to afford you an opportunity to actually clarify or qualify anything that you want to in relation to that particular sentence that I have drawn your attention to.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you hear the translation? Can you please come to his assistance, apparently no translation is coming through his headphones? Ms Moodley, may you repeat your question for the benefit of your client?

MS MOODLEY: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Mngomezulu, I take you back to paragraph 8 which relates to the incident of the shooting. And I would like you to comment or add or qualify what is contained there if you feel so inclined?

MR MNGOMEZULU: It was on a Friday morning, Gweni Nglovu who is Thulani Madlala uncle, was shot. Gweni was then taken to hospital. At about 11, we went to the hospital to visit him. MR MALAN: Alright, did you get it?

MS MOODLEY: I got the Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: You were still explaining that it was a particular Friday morning when you were advised that Thulani Madlala's uncle had been shot?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes, before we reached ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What happened before you got to town?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Before we got to town we tried to enquire as to who had shot Thulani's uncle. Unfortunately we did not get that information but the ammunition that had been used, it had come from the area that Amabumvu stayed in. We then went to the hospital to check on Gweni's condition. On our arrival, we discovered that he had been shot but he was not in a very serious condition.

On our way back from the hospital we were travelling in a van, that is a van belonging to the family of Thulani. When we arrived at the taxi rank we found a lot of people waiting there. We then requested that the van should at least give transport to those people, to take them to their township. The van then proceeded to the township and I remained with Thulani. Moosa was the driver and he was in the company of Intunzi Indelani when they went to the township.

As we were still standing there at the rank Mr Christopher Phewa approached, he was in the company of Detrix and some of his other friends that I did not know. As he approached the rank his manner was very aggressive and he showed Detrix that he was one of the people who had killed his father, he was pointing a finger at me at that time. On seeing this I asked him if he had witnessed me doing this or if he was present when the incident took place but because we had a very poor relationship to such an extent that if you see or if we saw one another we would just attack or shoot one another if we had a chance. On realising that my life could be in danger I drew my gun, a 7.65, and shot at him. If I'm not mistaken, I think I fired four shots at him because my ...(indistinct) was damaged.

After I shot him he fell to the ground and I tried to flee. Thulani then approached him and I'm not sure how many shots he fired at him.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose or were you still proceeding to give your evidence? Yes, is he still proceeding?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I was running I was being chased by White persons as well as some Indian persons. The police eventually caught up with me.

MR MALAN: What do you mean eventually? When did the police catch up with you?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I committed this incident it could be - it was a short distance after that incident, it couldn't have been more than two kilometres thereafter.

MR MALAN: Were you being pursued while fleeing?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I was.

MR MALAN: Thank you, you may continue.

MR MNGOMEZULU: That is how I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence in Exhibit A you state that you fired those shots because you were protecting yourself?

MR MNGOMEZULU: That was part of it.

CHAIRPERSON: What reason was there besides the statement that was made by Phewa that you were one of the people who had killed his father? What other reason prompted you to think that your life was in danger?

MR MNGOMEZULU: It was his manner, the attitude that he approached me as well as the situation between myself and his colleagues. There was war between us, there were Amabumvu and the ANC and they called us robbers and they had a separate leader who had been or who was an ex-ANC member. That was the situation that prompted me to think that if I do not defend myself I will lose my life because at that time I was Mr Mkhize's follower.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time did you see if Phewa or his companions were armed?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I cannot be too certain about them because they did not come closer to us, the only people who came close to me was Phewa and his friend Detrix.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Phewa and Detrix armed?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I would be lying, I'm not sure, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see anything in their possession, maybe in their hands?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Because of how quick this whole thing happened, I did not notice anything.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say you wanted him?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I mentioned before, the relationship between us was very bad, to such an extent that if we meet there was something that was going to happen between us. It's either I or they that would die.

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit you explain that Mr Teaspoon Mkhize's son had been killed. When did this happen?

MR MNGOMEZULU: The son, Mr Mkhize's son died before this war erupted between the SACP and the ANC, he was killed by IFP members. I think it happened in '92, 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: It had happened before there was a split in the ANC which led to the formation of this group Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: When did your father die?

MR MNGOMEZULU: He died in 1993 but he did not die as a result of the political conflict, he was just a sickly person.

I then returned from my hide out to attend his funeral. I then could not return because of the situation at the time because there was no one to look after the home. I was therefore forced not to return to where I had been.

CHAIRPERSON: What problems did you have, what was the source

of your conflicts between yourself and the Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: What I can say is that the Amabumvu did not want to understand the situation. Mr Mkhize tried several times to broker some peace between us. He even called on Mr Gwala to explain to them that ANC and SACP were not enemies, they did not understand that. Mr Blade Msimande even came to explain the same thing and they did not want to understand that because they wanted to commit and achieve their own objectives in the name of the SACP. I knew that the SACP and ANC were allies but because of these boys, the acts that they committed as well as for the fact that I and Mr Mkhize resided in the same section and I was the follower of Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are speaking too fast for the translators to be able to pick up everything that you are saying. They are struggling, they are trying to translate at a breath breaking speed. You are making their jobs very difficult. I am going to repeat my question. I will now address you in English because I think it's important for the Committee to understand the nature of the conflict that existed between your group and the Amabumvu group. Will you slowly repeat what you have just stated? I myself was unable to keep up with you because I'm listening to you in Zulu and trying to listen to the translators in English.

What was the nature of the conflict?

MR MNGOMEZULU: What I can say is we had a commander Mr Blade Msimande. Because of that position he was very close to Mr Mkhize. I think there was something that they could not see eye to eye with Blade because when Amabumvu was formed there was another person called, his name was Mkhize. He is the person who then became their leader, he removed these boys who had been guarding Mr Mkhize. He then managed to get a lot of these boys away from Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in short saying that there was a problem between Mr Blade Msimande and Mr Teaspoon Mkhize as a result of which Mr Msimande formed his own camp?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot be absolutely certain if that was the reason Amabumvu was formed but yes, before Amabumvu was formed there was a group or there were some amongst us who had intended, who wanted to form SACP and Mr Blade Msimande refused, he said there shouldn't be two organisations in one area. On seeing that disagreement, he used that opportunity to form Amabumvu. He was not just alone but with Mr Phewa and Zulu Mkhize whom I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this Amabumvu formation take place? Was this in 1993?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot remember correctly but 1994 they were already in existence, I'm not sure when they were formed exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, when did you begin to know that you had differences with Amabumvu as an ANC organisation, you as a person. When did you become aware of the conflict that existed between Amabumvu and members of your camp in the ANC?

MR MNGOMEZULU: On a certain day ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I want to know when, when in terms of the year and month.

MR MNGOMEZULU: I can say in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how soon before Mr Phewa was killed did you become aware of this difference or conflict? Mr Phewa was killed in March 1994?

MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chair, if I may intervene?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it 1993?

MS MOODLEY: No, Topay was the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, oh, Topay was deceased?

MS MOODLEY: Not in respect of the amnesty application but in respect of circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I mean Mpumelelo Christopher Phewa, this is the one that I'm referring to.

MS MOODLEY: Yes 25th March.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: He was killed on the 25th March 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm only confining myself to Mr Phewa who was killed in March 1994 in respect of whose death you seek amnesty, do you understand Mr Mngomezulu? Yes, now when did you personally become aware of this conflict that existed between your camp and the Amabumvu taking into account that Mr Phewa was killed in March 1994? I just want to put some time frame to when you became aware of the conflict, that's all?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I mentioned before, I am not certain as to when Amabumvu was founded. What I can say is that towards the end of 1993, beginning of 1994, I was already aware that we had differences that is organisation and Mr Msimande's organisation. Up until that time I was convicted or up until the time I committed this crime people lost their lives during that time. Mr Mkhize was also attacked at his home. My elder brother was also threatened with death. There are many instances that I can quote.

CHAIRPERSON: When was your home attacked?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I am not sure when Mr Mkhize's house was attacked but it was before the death of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phewa died in March 1994 which is early 1994. Was your home attacked in the same year or the year before?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I did not say that it was my home that was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: When did your father die?

MR MNGOMEZULU: In 1993.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja but when in 1993? October, December, Christmas, January, New Year's day or what

MR MNGOMEZULU: Because of the situation then I do not recall the month. I was not present when he died but it was early 1993, it could be April.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not your evidence that you left Wembesi for some time and when you returned, which was after your father's death, you came back to a very different Wembesi which was now divided into different camps. That's the evidence that's before us?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I did leave Wembesi and returned after my father's death.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence as contained in Exhibit A refers to the area having been divided into IFP and the ANC. Now were they different divisions, were they divisions of the IFP and the ANC as well as divisions of the ANC and the Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As you mentioned, I returned and there was by then the IFP and ANC existing in the area and later on there was Amabumvu as well as the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you just explain to us briefly what the objectives to your understanding of the Amabumvu were, what political objectives did they pursue?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot be certain of their intentions in the township I think that as I mentioned before some people did attempt to form a SACP branch and Mr Msimande refused. The problem that was then existing was that I thought that the person who wanted to be the leader was Mr Phewa because they were by the time not on good terms with Mr Mkhize because of Blade Msimande. I cannot really say what they wanted from him because I was not close to them, I was not in their camp. I knew that whenever or wherever we meet them, there was nothing else that we would do except kill one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you fighting, maybe I should put it in that fashion. Why were you fighting with the SACP?

MR MNGOMEZULU: They started the attack on Mr Mkhize's home where there was a meeting held. They are the ones who also demarcated the area, they attacked Melusi at Mkhize's home, they decided that people who stayed in Five Row section are Amabumvu and those who resided at Mr Mkhize's side were ANC and they used to label as Amagola, which is robbers but I do not know, I cannot tell this Commission just what this problem was but I trusted Mr Mkhize and trusted that he was going to help the township develop and I could just not let him down and leave him in the hands of such people.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge did they ever try and recruit members of your particular section to become SACP?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I would have no knowledge in that regard.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOODLEY

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Maybe one question Madame Chair, I think the Committee has asked all the questions that I had prepared.

Mr Mngomezulu, would you say your political objectives as the ANC of Mr Mkhize were the same as the political objectives of the Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I do not believe so because Mr Mkhize had never once instructed us to kill people but they were capable of killing our people.

NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MS THABETHE

ADV DE JAGER: Did they in fact kill any of your people?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes they did.

ADV DE JAGER: Who killed?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Do you mean the killers or people who were killed? I did not get that question?

ADV DE JAGER: You knew the Amabumvu people. Did they kill any ANC people?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes there were that they killed.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was killed?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I remember Thulani Mbaso, Mr Gerry Zuma who was a school principal, there were various incidents, we were also attacked in a house but nobody was killed. Moosa was even killed as well. They killed a lot of people even when I was arrested, in prison, they continued with that campaign of killing people.

ADV DE JAGER: That was even after the election?

MR MNGOMEZULU: What I know is that Musanglovu was killed after I was incarcerated, I'm not sure whether it was before or after the elections.

ADV DE JAGER: Well you killed this man Phewa a month before the elections, a month and four days before the elections?

MR MNGOMEZULU: That is correct, just before the election.

ADV DE JAGER: At that time the ANC and the SACP were campaigning as one political organisation?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes they were allies but not in my area, that did not exist there and at that time I had already been arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think what my colleague is saying is that by March 1994 it's common cause that there was an alliance between the ANC and the SACP, there was such an alliance. Did you know that there was an alliance between the ANC and SACP and Cosatu in March 1994?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I did know that.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know what was the purpose of the alliance?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot say for certain but I do know that they wanted to remove the opposite government.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is important for us to understand to be able to really have a clearer picture to the crux of your application is to understand the cause of the conflict between your organisation and the SACP, why you say you became enemies. That has not been borne out by the evidence that you've tendered so far. It is very, very critical and it is of fundamental importance for us to know why you became enemies. What is it that you were fighting for as an alliance? It's the SACP and the ANC organisation.

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I mentioned before, I knew and still know that the ANC and SACP were part of an alliance but in our township that was not so. The SACP in our township used that name just for personal gain, not for gain of the organisation. That was what we were fighting against. We did not want a split in our organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying they used the name SACP but were not in fact SACP members, is that what you are trying to suggest to us?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot say it with absolute certainty but some of them were Mr Gwala, even asked amongst them if there was a member of the SACP who was 17 or who was unemployed and as I knew there shouldn't have been any member of the SACP who was unemployed or was that young but I'm not aware if they had membership cards.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you regard this Amabumvu as the SACP as you understood the SACP within the broader alliance between the ANC, SACP and COSATU?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As far as I could tell these Amabumvu at the township were not part or were not like the SACP that was fighting for the development and growth of our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of any persons who were genuine SACP members within your area?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Unfortunately no, there was no one that I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: You still haven't really explain in a manner that I can personally understand why there was this fighting between what you perceived to be Amabumvu or people who called themselves Amabumvu and you as members of the ANC, I still have not been able to grasp why there was a division, what is it that you were fighting for. What I seem to be understanding and what I seem to be hearing from your evidence is that they started fighting, they started launching attacks on you as an organisation and then you retaliated. Other than that was there any reason that made you to be divided as different organisations?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I mentioned before that the one thing that really bothered us was that they attacked Mr Mkhize and they would attack other members of the ANC and we had thought that we were all members of one organisation. I am not in a position to say what they wanted from us but I do know that at that time they'd even give us names.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose did they attack Mr Mkhize and the members of your community? Why were such attacks launched by these Amabumvu against your members of Mr Mkhize?

MR MNGOMEZULU: On enquiring from people was that they will say with Mkhize, he's involved in embezzlement of funds in the township and he is also involved with our mothers. This is what people like Blade used to say because they wanted to desert him, they did not want to be the same organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose? When you say they wanted to do that, do you want to say they wanted to depose Mr Mkhize, they wanted to remove him so that they can take over the political control of your area?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Even though I cannot say it with certainty but from their actions I thought that was part of their campaign as well as to undermine the ANC because the ANC by that time was a well established organisation because sometimes you would meet Blade or you would see Blade in an IFP rank where I would not be able to go, he would be able to go there. That was one of those things that led me to believe that they were trying to undermine and destabilise the ANC in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but you now mentioned that they wanted to get rid of Mr Mkhize because he embezzled money and ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: That's not what I recall. He said ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, my note is "they say that Mkhize, there was an embezzlement of funds."

MS MOODLEY: They alleged these things.

ADV DE JAGER: Well leave me to complete my question and if you want to object you object then.

MS MOODLEY: Advocate de Jager, with all due respect I can hear you quite clearly, you seem to be screaming into my ears. I would gladly give you the patience that you require but please give and treat me with the respect that I deserve as well.

ADV DE JAGER: And you'd better treat me with same respect and ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: No listen ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: And don't interrupt me while I'm asking questions.

MS MOODLEY: No, no, don't point your finger at me.

CHAIRPERSON: May I, may I please if you do care, please.

MS MOODLEY: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I apologise, Honourable Chairperson, I don't appreciate a colleague, a learned friend pointing his finger at me all the time, it is distasteful and it is unnecessary.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you - you told us that they wanted to get rid of Mr Mkhize because he embezzled funds, is that correct?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I did not say they wanted to remove him, I said I was of the opinion that that was so. I cannot say if that is what they wanted because I was not part of them.

ADV DE JAGER: And you were also of the opinion that they thought he did something with your mothers? Is that correct?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Those were rumours that you would hear from people in the street. It is not something that I would call possible evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: But that were the rumours why they were against Mr Mkhize, is that correct? Rumours going around?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I would agree with you.

ADV DE JAGER: And then you've told us previously that you and Mr Phewa, you wanted him, "there was a bad relationship between the two of us, either me or he would die". What did you mean by that? What was the cause of this bad relationship between the two of you?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I explained before that the situation between ourselves an Phewa was only good before the formation of Amabumvu. After the formation of Amabumvu, it was not easy for me to approach him as an ex-colleague. After they formed Amabumvu our relationship became very bad to such an extent that we could not even talk to them. Even in that meeting when we were all there present, Mr Mngomezulu was present, there were many misunderstandings. There was even a meeting called by Mr Msimande as well as another one called by Mr Gwala which ended in chaos. By the time the meeting finished people were shooting one another. That is why I have explained that the situation was very bad between us.

ADV DE JAGER: I understand the two groups now, but the personal relationship between you and Mr Phewa, because you said "I wanted him, there was a bad relation between the two of us". Did you speak to each other, did you have a fall out one time or another? What happened between the two of you?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I still explain, please here me. I had never had a personal confrontation with Phewa. Until the time that we had differences, organisational differences, we did not have a personal conflict, he was not somebody that I was close to.

ADV DE JAGER: It was all about the politics between you and him?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I will say so because he even accused me of killing his father.

CHAIRPERSON: But if I understand your evidence, Mr Mngomezulu, when you were giving your evidence then, your evidence in chief, what you were basically trying to say is that there was bad blood between Amabumvu and yourselves and you didn't see eye to eye and that whenever you met one of you had to be down? That was my understanding of your evidence. Meaning one of you either your organisation, a member of your organisation or members of his organisation, had to go down because of the constant attacks that you were launching against each other, is it not so?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I can it was tried for us to see eye to eye.

CHAIRPERSON: No I understand, just listen to my question which is, it actually wants you to say yes or no. I don't want an explanation, I'm putting to you how I've understood your evidence, that you did not mean to say there was this personal enmity between you and Phewa, you were suggesting that there was this enmity between members of your organisation and members of the organisation to which Phewa belonged and that whenever you met as members belonging to opposing groups you fought?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: May I just also try to get clarity? You said earlier in your evidence that Mr Mkhize tried to broker the peace but he wasn't successful, did I hear you correctly?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I would you to repeat this question for me?

MR MNGOMEZULU: In the beginning in your evidence in chief, I think it was then, you said that Mr Mkhize even tried to broker the peace but he wasn't successful. He also got in and this was part of all this, he also got in Harry Gwala and Blade Msimande to also speak to them but I just want to make sure, Mr Mkhize was also there to explain the alliance and the peace. Was that his attitude or did Mr Mkhize say fight the Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Mr Mkhize tried many times so that there's peace between us and the Amabumvu but he was unsuccessful.

MR MALAN: But his line was peace no fighting, that was Mr Mkhize's stance if I understand you correctly?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I agree with you.

MR MALAN: And Blade Msimande and Harry Gwala exactly the same line, they were saying to you don't fight, we want an alliance, we're together in this, we have an election coming, we must work together, is that correct?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Harry Gwala came and explained to all of us that we shouldn't fight but after he left he could see that the situation wasn't calm and he could suspect that after he left there was going to be violence and also Mr Msimande tried to bring peace in that area.

MR MALAN: But really my understanding is simply this, this conflict wasn't fuelled by the leadership, it was at grassroots. Mr Mkhize did not ask for them to fight, Harry Gwala did not ask the Amabumvu to fight, Blade Msimande did not ask the Amabumvu to fight ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's the ANC.

MR MALAN: Oh, the ANC sorry - ask the ANC to fight, everybody was saying don't fight, is that your evidence?

MR MNGOMEZULU: If I may disagree there with this following reason that Mr Gwala was approached and at the time Mr Gwala and Mr Mkhize were not in good terms at that time because of the situation. Why because the Amabumvu used to leave Ascot for Pietermartizburg and they will report to Mr Gwala about Mr Mkhize, statements which were not true and Mr Mkhize came to a decision that he wanted to resign as a chairman of the ANC in the area and he was worried because he realised that the situation wasn't safe and Mr Gwala came one time and we were in a hall together with Mr Mkhize and people started shooting at each other. The meeting never ended as it was planned. Then, which I wouldn't say for certain what I suspect or what I've suspected was that Mr Gwala was also with the Amabumvu, not the Mkhize group or the ANC group.

MR MALAN: Ja but that was clearly so, I mean he was representing the SACP in the alliance? So your suspicion was correct that he was on their side but that's not the issue, the question is Gwala didn't say to you you must fight, he said have peace? I just want to make sure. Did Gwala say to you fight or did he say we're part of the same alliance?

MR MNGOMEZULU: What I can tell this Committee I am not certain whether this meeting I'm talking about was the first meeting with Mr Gwala and us or the second one. But what I know is that one time on his way to the meeting he was attacked and the rumour came that he was attacked by Teaspoon Mkhize's dogs therefore I'm not sure, that's why I said I'm not sure which side he was.

MR MALAN: I think you can accept that he was on the side of the SACP because he was an office bearer but he was also part of the alliance but I think, if I understand you correctly, Mkhize never told you to fight, he told you somewhere we must make a peace and Blade Msimande came and told the same. I'm referring to your paragraph 7 and 8 really if we follow through, it's 7.

CHAIRPERSON: 7?

MR MALAN: Ja. Okay let me just take you back to paragraph 4 at the top of that same page. Sorry no, actually the next page, the end of paragraph 7. This Mr Zuma, he was killed in a bomb attack you say? Was there a prosecution of his killers? Did they catch the people who planted the bomb?

MR MNGOMEZULU: In my knowledge, no one was arrested.

MR MALAN: Did you think that this came from Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Without any doubt I can say yes.

MR MALAN: It could not have been the IFP or police?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Let me just explain something about the IFP at that time. At that time the situation between IFP and ANC wasn't so tense, it wasn't that much tense and Zuma was attacked during the time when Amabumvu and the ANC was fighting. About the police I cannot comment.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure whether I understood the translation. Was Zuma attacked during the time that they were fighting or not fighting?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Were not fighting with the IFP but were fighting with the Amabumvu.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact it was that there was no fighting, the situation was not that tense.

MR MALAN: This Mr Phewa that you refer to, I understood that there were two different Phewas. Who is he or who was he?

The one that was killed, you say Mr Phewa and Mr Gqabha? I can't pronounce it, Gqabha?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Let me just correct you before I can answer about Mr Phewa, it's not Mr Gqabha, the name of the person it's Gqobha. It's the name not the surname.

MR MNGOMEZULU: I didn't get the spelling, will you spell the name again?

MR MNGOMEZULU: It's G-q-o-b-h-a. Mr Phewa who died is Christopher Phewa's father.

MR MALAN: Do you know who killed his father?

MR MNGOMEZULU: No I don't.

MR MALAN: Do you accept that he was killed by your group?

MR MNGOMEZULU: No I cannot say yes because I don't know really who killed him.

MR MALAN: And the other person, Gqobha?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I also don't know who killed him.

MR MALAN: But you're certain that Zuma was attacked by Amabumvu and Thulani who shot him?

MR MNGOMEZULU: The reason I'm saying so it's because I was close to Mr Zuma before he was killed and he was told that he was going to be killed because he was always with us and he was staying in our area. We were his bodyguards.

MR MALAN: No, I heard that part earlier, I asked about Thulani now. Who shot Thulani?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Amabumvu killed him, they took him from his car he was from work during the day and they killed him.

MR MALAN: Was this Thulani Mdlala? Or is this a different Thulani?

MR MNGOMEZULU: A different Thulani, this one is Thulani Mbaso.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mngomezulu, apart from the intervention of Mr Blade Msimande and Mr Harry Gwala who apparently then were members of the SACP, was there any intervention by the ANC hierarchy with regard to the peculiar situation in Wembesi concerning this conflict between your organisation and Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I think Mr Mkhize according to me, he contacted the Natal Midlands, the people from Pietermaritzburg and I think what he did was actually accurate because every time we had problems we were reporting to them in Pietermaritzburg but I comprehend the gist of your testimony to be saying that you were not entirely satisfied with the intervention of Mr Gwala whom you suspected to be siding with Amabumvu. Did you not do anything to take issues further up than Mr Gwala whose intervention you were not satisfied with?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I've already explained to the Commission that Mr Mkhize decided to resign as a Chairman. He decided to give up on this whole issue and they brought someone called Mr Magesa to take over.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Mr Teaspoon Mkhize resign as chairperson of the ANC in Wembesi?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I think it was in 1994 the very same time when we had problems with the SACP.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before March '94 when this incident occurred, that is the killing of Mr Phewa? I'm referring to the Phewa the one you are here today for, I don't know whether it's the son or the father?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I think at that time Mr Mkhize had already resigned, was no longer a chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And who had taken over the reins of chairmanship after his resignation? You've mentioned a name and I didn't take it down.

MR MNGOMEZULU: Mr Magesa, he's the one who was a chairman when I was arrested, he was an acting chairman in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he appointed by the community or recommended by the national leadership of the ANC to act as chairperson after Mr Mkhize's resignation?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I cannot be certain but this is what I heard that after Mr Mkhize had resigned, Mr Magesa acted as a chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mngomezulu?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Yes Madame Chair. Thank you Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Did we interrupt you whilst you were in the process of cross-examining?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Our humblest apologies.

MS THABETHE: Taken.

MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe, if I remember correctly you said we had already asked all the questions, you had only the one left?

MS THABETHE: I've got more questions from what has arisen, yes thanks.

When you killed Christopher Phewa, did you regard - or at the time when you killed Christopher Phewa, did you regard Amabumvu as a political opponent or as a political ally?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I've already explained before that generally I know Amabumvu as an ANC alliance except for the group of Amabumvu which resided in my area but I personally, I thought that these people who called themselves Amabumvu, they were using the name of the organisation to reach their objectives, their personal objectives.

MS THABETHE: As an opponent?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you both are making it very difficult for the translator to keep up because whilst we are still listening to her translation I think the applicant continues to gather speed speaking and I don't know how she has been able to cope with the ground breaking speed at which the applicant has been giving his evidence but I think she has been translating very well. You please must try and accommodate her abilities, she can only do so much so please you have the advantage unlike the applicant of being able to listen to your headphones and you can hear when she's still busy translating and don't put a question to Mr Mngomezulu while the translation is still going on. You may proceed to put your question.

MS THABETHE: I'm indebted Madame Chair. Should I repeat my question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Now what I was trying to ascertain from you Mr Mngomezulu is I understand you regarded the SACP, the organisation as an ally of the ANC but I'm talking about you now at Wembesi when you actually, at the time when you actually killed Christopher Phewa because you see, what I'm trying to ascertain, you're saying SACP, you saw SACP as an ally to the ANC generally but at Wembesi you saw it as a political opponent so my question was when you killed him did you believe to be directing your act towards a political opponent or a political ally, that's my question to you?

MR MNGOMEZULU: The SACP from Wembesi were my enemies.

MS THABETHE: My section question is when you killed Christopher Phewa did you in your belief or did you believe that you - okay let me rephrase my question, when you killed Mr Phewa, were you in any way pursuing any objective of any organisation, political organisation or ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you kill Mr Phewa?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madame Chair. Do you understand the question? The question is why did you kill Mr Phewa, did you think by killing Mr Phewa you'll be achieving any political objective on behalf of your organisation which was the ANC?

MR MNGOMEZULU: My main objective was I wanted to gain peace between the ANC and the SACP. In the morning of that day that had killed the uncle of my co-accused and at that time I was still angry but our main objective was to bring peace and to bring the two organisations together.

CHAIRPERSON: You want to take it up Ms Thabethe, I suppose?

MS THABETHE: Yes. And by killing Mr Phewa, how did you think that peace would be achieved in your area?

MR MNGOMEZULU: What I thought as a bodyguard of Mr Mkhize is that I know that if a political enemy comes to you with war, that's what you should use as well to fight war with war. I told myself that if they are coming with war we were going to come with war and then if they fail or if we fail then we will sit down and talk about our different issues.

MS THABETHE: Did you regard Mr Mkhize as your leader at the time when you committed this offence?

MR MNGOMEZULU: There are two Mkhizes, before I can answer I need to know which one you're referring to?

MS THABETHE: Teaspoon.

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I regarded him as a leader who can take us forward or was supposed to take us forward and I trusted that he was going to bring development in the townships.

MS THABETHE: You see why I'm asking this question it's because I'm trying to reconcile what you've just said, you said Mr Mkhize promoted peace in the area, he said you shouldn't fight, that's what he told you, isn't it, as an ANC organisation? He was promoting peace as your leader.

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I do agree.

MS THABETHE: Now you've also given evidence to the effect that when you actually killed Christopher Phewa he was no longer the leader in the area, there was somebody else who had taken over, Magesa, that's correct as well?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I said so.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, let me just finish my question so that you can answer accordingly. My predicament, I'm trying to understand why you decided not to listen to Mr Mkhize and why you decided even after he had left the ANC as the Chairperson why you did not stop what you were doing as he had advised you, why did you continue to fight the other party when he had advised you not to do so?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I do agree that at time Mr Mkhize had resigned and yes it's true that he will come to us and tell us not to fight but I personally, I used to ask myself what he meant if he was saying to us we should stop fighting when we were watching people dying in front of us and I thought that I cannot stand looking at these people killing for instance my mother or himself, I didn't want them to go to that extent. Yes he will come to us and tell us not to fight but after a day he told us not to fight, we will hear that someone has been killed and we are there sitting doing nothing. Yes, Mr Mkhize never told me personally that I must take a gun and go and shoot someone. I made that decision alone, I made this because of what I felt inside and because of what I saw, the situation was bad and I thought that maybe one day my mother was going to be killed in that way or in that manner.

MS THABETHE: When you say you made that decision yourself to fight the enemy, did you make it yourself as Mr Mngomezulu or did you have any kind of meeting with anybody else or with the ANC, other people of the ANC, did you have any meetings discussing what was happening in the area and how you were going to deal with it?

MR MNGOMEZULU: What I can say is that the community in the area was tired of this fight but no one came to us as a group of ANC boys and said we must go and kill but we decided on our own that we were not going to give up and this happened after we fought IFP and there was no time to hold meetings at that time because of the situation in the township, there was no control at all and those people used to come maybe three times a day looking for you and they will tell everyone they meet on the streets that they are looking for so and so and even with Mr Mkhize they did tell people that they were looking for Mr Mkhize first to kill him.

MS THABETHE: Madame Chair ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What you are basically saying Mr Mngomezulu is that inasmuch as the wishes of your local leadership and that would be the leadership under the chairmanship of Mr Mkhize whilst he was there before he resigned inasmuch as it was their wish that you should not engage in any kind of attacks whatsoever with the Amabumvu members. You as the membership of at grassroots level, you say the heat was just too great for you to leave things as they were and not to engage in such attacks and that you as the membership at grassroots level, you acted on your own against the wishes of the local leadership in your organisation?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes, that's basically what I'm saying. No one made this decision for me, I saw the way things were happening in the area and I decided that rather than running away it's better to die if it's your turn to die. As I've already mentioned that I was attacked by a bomb and I was asleep in the house. My mother wasn't safe, everything near wasn't safe in that township.

MS THABETHE: No further questions Madame Chair, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

ADV DE JAGER: At the beginning you told us that you killed this man in self defence because he approached you and you killed him because you feared for your life. Is that right?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes that is right.

ADV DE JAGER: So you took the decision to kill him on the spur of the moment there when he came towards you, isn't that right?

MR MNGOMEZULU: That's right.

ADV DE JAGER: Or did you plan long before to kill him?

MR MNGOMEZULU: As I have said before that I never had any personal confrontation with Chris Phewa, this was a decision which I'd taken then and there.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't sit down and say this man is my political enemy, he's working against my party, I'm going to kill him?

MR MNGOMEZULU: The way the situation was, so tense, there was no time to sit down and think that whoever is going to come and attack so and so, there was no time for that. We were scared we were going to lose our lives and I decided there and then that if I were to let him go he was going to kill me.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to understand you clearly on this point. Are you saying that had you not been confronted by Phewa about the death of his father you would not have killed him even though he was a member of Amabumvu and you had running battles with Amabumvu members?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I will agree and I would support my answer. When I killed Mr Phewa junior it was because of the situation in the township. Even if it wasn't him but if it was someone from his group I was going to do the same, I was going to take the same decision. For anyone of who would come and approach me who was from the Amabumvu I was still hurt at that time, they had killed the school principal, the uncle of my friend and they had attacked my house with a bomb. That's when I realised or I decided that if I don't use a slightest chance that I get then they will come after me.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me make a follow up to that question. Are you suggesting to this Committee that you had made a conscious decision to kill members of Amabumvu because of the political situation at Wembesi at the time of Mr Phewa's killing?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I'd like to clarify one thing to this Commission, I wasn't going to take a decision to kill my brothers because they were my brothers but the only problem came when they used the name of the SACP wrongly. I know what SACP means to me.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt you. My simple question is and please listen carefully to what I'm saying. Had you taken a conscious decision to kill any member of Amabumvu at the time when Mr Phewa was killed. Had you as Mr Mngomezulu, being a member of the ANC, taken a decision to kill any member of the Amabumvu.

MR MNGOMEZULU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if that is not so, how could Mr Phewa - how could you have killed Mr Phewa simply because he was a member of Amabumvu which is what you have just stated prior to my second question?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I had already explained to this Commission that when he approached me at the taxi rank he said some insulting words to me and at that time I had already heard that in the morning they had shot the uncle of my friend and two or three days ago they had killed a school principal. At that time I was still bleeding inside my heart. It wasn't easy for me to be not scared or wanted to react there and then when he approached me. I did this in a split second, that's why I'm here to apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Had he not confronted you about the death of his father would you have still killed him bearing in mind the many events that you have now just evinced to, that had happened to you and your relatives?

MR MNGOMEZULU: No I wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Moodley, do you have any re-examination emanating from the questions from the bench as well as from Ms Thabethe?

MS MOODLEY: Yes your Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to do so.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOODLEY: Mr Mngomezulu, my learned colleague asked the question to which you replied that you did not view Christopher Phewa as your opponent, political opponent, would you like to clarify that response that you gave considering the full affidavit and the facts in the affidavit that you deposed to and handed to this commission?

Is there anything that you would like to add to that?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes I will add something. I saw Chris as a political opponent after he joined the Amabumvu and his father was the person who was on the forefront of Amabumvu. He had a position on that organisation. I knew Chris before the Amabumvu was formed and if Amabumvu was not formed I am certain that I wouldn't have done what I've done in 1994 but because of the situation between the Amabumvu and ourselves it led me to be in prison today. Thank you.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Mngomezulu, you offered an explanation in relation to what Mr Teaspoon Mkhize as leader then of Wembesi of the ANC branch did in relation to the ANC hierarchy to solve this crises and to diffuse the tension that was prevalent at Wembesi. You talked of the contact that was made with the Natal Midlands. Is there anything that you wish to add in relation to the particular meeting that you made reference to where there was a shoot out that developed and what had emanated from there because I think it would be pertinent for the Commission to here that.

MR MALAN: Why don't you ask him a direct question so that he can understand what you want him to tell us please?

MS MOODLEY: I don't want to do it in a way that - I can do it then directly if you please.

Mr Mngomezulu, would you tell the Commission about the events and the conditions that transpired after the meeting that Mr Teaspoon Mkhize had with Mr Harry Gwala at Wembesi in regard to solving the problem at Wembesi.

MR MNGOMEZULU: Sorry, I understood that meeting was a meeting where Mr Gwala addressed them?

MS MOODLEY: Yes but I ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: It wasn't a meeting between Mkhize and Gwala it was a meeting where he addressed the branch and the followers, the members?

MS MOODLEY: Mr Mngomezulu has indicated to the Commission there was more than one meeting.

MR MALAN: And was he present at the other meeting?

MS MOODLEY: Who the applicant?

MR MALAN: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: I'm trying to now get the applicant to respond to the Commission on that particular aspect. Would you like to answer that Mr Mngomezulu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes. I was present at the first meeting where Mr Mkhize and Mr Harry Gwala was present as well and the meeting didn't end well and there were no decisions taken between the Amabumvu and ourselves because there were few Amabumvu members, I think there were less than 15.

Mr Gwala decided that he was going to report this matter back to the office in Pietermaritzburg and he will come back and report to Mr Mkhize. Unfortunately he didn't come back but he sent Mr Msimande to come and explain to us about the SACP and when he was present Mr Msimande also didn't take any decisions or conclusions, we never resolved the matter and Mr Harry Gwala came again and that's when there was shootings after the meeting. I used to go to these meetings but sometimes I wouldn't go inside the hall, I would be outside.

MR MALAN: Thank you. Please Ms Moodley, if you have re-examination, I mean you must be more direct in asking your questions flowing from what ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: There is a point to this and if you would bear with me ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: But he has repeated all the evidence we have before us.

MS MOODLEY: Evidence in chief but I'm going to now say to Mr Mngomezulu the question of the leadership in relation to where Wembesi was always clear and uncontroverted, that peace must be brokered in that area of Wembesi, would you agree with that?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Would you please repeat your question?

MS MOODLEY: There was no confusion in the messages that were emanating from the leadership, would you agree with that sentiment that the leadership, both of the ANC and the SACP was clear that peace had to be brokered at Wembesi because that was in the interests of the entire community?

MR MNGOMEZULU: I wouldn't agree with that because there were people who never wanted peace at Wembesi. For one, Mr Mkhize and Mr Phewa, those were the people who never used to come to Mr Mkhize's house and before they used to come but this was before the Amabumvu was formed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mngomezulu, I think what is being put to you is quite simple. It was quite clear, clear as daylight, that your organisation wanted to broker peace. The leadership of your organisation wanted to broker peace in your area and that has been your evidence all along? Mr Teaspoon Mkhize always advocated that you should not fight against the Amabumvu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: Yes but Mr Mkhize will tell us not to fight Amabumvu but the Amabumvu wouldn't be present in these meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question, the question was just wanted to elicit what happened from your side, from your side as the ANC. That I think was covered quite succinctly, Ms Moodley?

MS MOODLEY: I would just like to deal with one more issue in relation to political control over the area. You understand the SACP not to be in conflict with the ANC, there was a campaign in Wembesi for the elections that were coming up shortly. Can you offer any other explanation as to why something that was as clear as a bell to any member of the community that the ANC and the SACP were really a political alliance and that the election the next month after this incident was going to be contested behind one flag. Why did you ever apply yourself to that situation and you had thoughts that you would like to share with the Commission on that about why, if a party was not in conflict with an alliance party, there was violence in your area? Do you have any thoughts on that matter Mr Mngomezulu?

MR MNGOMEZULU: No I don't have any idea, I cannot comment on that at all.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOODLEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I suppose this is the end of Mr Mngomezulu's application?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you will then proceed with the next applicant that being Mr Madlala. After Madlala, you propose to call a witness in support of both of their applications who will generally throw more light on the political context at Wembesi?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will adjourn until tomorrow at 9 o'clock. We'll again request correctional services to be in time. We appreciate that they were here before 9 o'clock. We hope we can still making that appreciation, would also appeal to the legal representatives to please be here before 9 o'clock to enable the proceedings to commence at 9 o'clock on the dot. We'll proceed with Mr Madlala's ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Sorry Madame Chair, can I just butt in there please? I have a slight difficulty with tomorrow because Mr John Wills who is representing Mr Ndaba and Mbanjwa had indicated to me that he would like to be afforded the first opportunity to lead the evidence because in actual fact he was supposed to be in court tomorrow and due to the short notice that we had to ask him to come here the court did not allow him not to come at all in court and apparently he has been told several times that they won't allow the postponement because he has tried to postpone this matter on the basis that he had to appear in front of the Truth Commission so I had assured him that we will start with his matter at 9 o'clock so I'm facing that difficulty now.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you contemplate Mr Mbanjwa and Ndaba's application to last Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: I don't see it lasting more than an hour Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That being so, Ms Moodley, would you have any objection if we started with Mr Mdlala at half ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: That would be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say immediately after concluding that application we'll then proceed with your application. The application of Mr Mdlala will then stand down until tomorrow at half past 10 or at any later time when Mr Mbanjwa's application would have been concluded and disposed of.

MS MOODLEY: So I will be excused for the morning until then?

CHAIRPERSON: You will be excused until 10.30 tomorrow morning. Will you please make sure that your witness is able to be here timeously? Thank you.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS