MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant is Mr Leon Flores.
MR MALAN: Your full names are Leon William John.
LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Mr Flores, you have completed the proper application form in terms of the Act and handed it in and at all times you have given your full co-operation to the investigative officials of the TRC, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You were also in the service of the South African Police, as it was defined by Section 20(2)(a) and Section 20(2)(f) of the TRC Act of 1995, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You were attached to the Section C1, which was known as Vlakplaas. And the workings of the unit is set out in the supplementary bundle by Eugene de Kock, which was handed up during the Johannes Mabotha/Penge Mine incident, and this forms a basis of the workings of Vlakplaas for future amnesty hearings.
MR FLORES: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You are also aware that Vlakplaas was established as a covert counter-insurgency unit and it was the operational arm of the Security Police in the combat against terrorism.
MR FLORES: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At the time of these two incident, and you are involved in the incident of 8 June as well as the one of 12 June 1988, you were a Sergeant, in the service of Vlakplaas, with Col Eugene de Kock, one of the applicants, as your Commander.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You confirm the content of your amnesty application and your general background, training in the Police Service and the merits of the incident, as it is handed up to this Committee.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And you confirm that your political objectives were aimed against the ANC and the communist movements within South Africa and outside South Africa, and the political insurgents through the borders into the Republic of South Africa.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At all times you followed the instructions of Eugene de Kock to the letter. And do you confirm that you also worked on the need-to-know basis?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Is it correct that this need-to-know basis entailed that you execute your instructions and ask no questions?
MR FLORES: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And you always acted within the scope of your duties as you were employed by the service?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: If we study your application, you were involved in an incident on the 8th of June 1988, during which you received instructions to be present at an ambush outside Piet Retief, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You were involved in the incident and you also fired at the vehicle.
MR FLORES: I was involved, but I did not fire shots at the vehicle during the first incident.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you briefly tell us, you arrived at the scene and took up position, and what happened then?
MR FLORES: Because the vehicle was a little delayed and arrived late, I received instructions by Eugene de Kock to accompany Botha to see where the vehicle was.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and then?
MR FLORES: After we departed from the ambush scene, I would say approximately three kilometres further on the particular vehicle passed us. We waited some time until it passed and then we turned around and drove back slowly to the point where the rest of the members were waiting.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. You stopped?
MR FLORES: And with our arrival there we saw, because our headlights were on, that the vehicle had already gone into the ambush and that members had fired on the vehicle. We waited until the shooting had ceased and then we climbed out of the vehicle and went closer.
MR CORNELIUS: And you found that there were three deceased women as well as an Indian man and they were not armed?
MR FLORES: Yes, those were my observations.
MR CORNELIUS: And it is common cause that weapons were planted afterwards to make it seem that they were already armed?
MR FLORES: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: The second incident, you were indeed involved in the ambush?
MR FLORES: Yes, I was, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you also fired shots on the vehicle, as you mention in your statement?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And it is also common cause that four men had died. Were they armed?
MR FLORES: Yes, they were armed.
MR CORNELIUS: Is it correct that it was practice between C-Section and Security that Security would obtain information with regard to the target and then call in the operational arm to follow up on the information?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any reason to doubt the instructions and information of Deetlefs and de Kock and Pienaar?
MR FLORES: Not at all, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You were a so-called foot-soldier in this incident?
MR FLORES: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that the armed MK members would be a danger to the country and the general public?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that you acted in the interest of the country against the enemy of the then Republic and to stop the infiltration of these armed persons?
MR FLORES: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: In terms of Section 20(3)(f), except for your salary, did you receive any rewards for your actions?
MR FLORES: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you act out of malice or revenge against the deceased?
MR FLORES: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you make a full disclosure of all the relevant facts?
MR FLORES: Yes, I have.
MR CORNELIUS: And you request amnesty in terms of Section 20 of the Act, for a total of eight, what would be eight charges of murder, perjury and defeating the ends of justice by means of the statements which you made during the inquest, and any other statutory delicts which might emanate from there. Is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Is there anything else you would like to add?
MR FLORES: No, thank you.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Flores, during this incident, is it correct that there was a high intensity of insurgency and attacks, specifically in the Eastern Transvaal?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: You heard that a question was put by Mr Moerane to the previous applicant, that at that stage the ANC was winning the battle. Did you see it as such?
MR FLORES: Yes, basically he is correct to say that, to put it as such, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: So it was not a normal conventional combat, but all methods had to be used to stop these infiltrations and the attacks of the ANC on the country by means of violence. Did you experience it as such?
MR FLORES: If you put it as such I can agree with you.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hattingh?
MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?
MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one.
Mr Flores, page 46 of the paginated documents, at the top paragraph you say the following, and I quote:
"De Kock contacted Pretoria and asked for a pistol and grenades to be delivered to the scene immediately and three hours later Roelf Venter delivered the goods, which was placed by the victims."
Is that your recollection?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson. I had heard at one stage that Col de Kock mentioned, seeing that there was a problem, that no weapons had been found on the deceased and that this was now a problem, I am certain the name of Roelf Venter was mentioned because they would have only travelled at midnight from Pretoria to Island Rock.
MR JANSEN: Yes, you have heard Mr Ras' evidence in this regard.
MR FLORES: Yes, that is correct.
MR JANSEN: Would you like to comment?
MR FLORES: I would just have to rectify it, that I was mistaken here and I misplaced Mr Venter in this incident.
MR JANSEN: In other words, the name of Mr Venter was mentioned and the fact that you place him at the scene is the reconstruction, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen. Mr Lamey, any questions?
MR LAMEY: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
I have a problem with that version of yours, Mr Flores. You see you made this statement ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I think it was also December, December 1996.
MR MOERANE: No, on the 13th, yes the 13th of December 1996, in Pretoria. I assume that before you made this statement you refreshed your memory with regard to the events that had occurred there, is that correct?
MR FLORES: Chairperson, I don't know what he means by refreshing my memory at that stage.
MR MOERANE: Well the events took place in 1988 and you made the statement in 1996, so you had to look back eight years.
MR FLORES: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And you had to make certain that what you had and what you included in your amnesty application was the truth and the whole truth, not so?
MR FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: Now you see, what you are saying here on page 46, fourth line, after you say that
"They were shot to pieces, all dead"
Then you say:
"None of them were armed, not even in their luggage. There was a problem."
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE
"And de Kock contacted Pretoria, and asked for a pistol and grenades to be delivered to the scene immediately."
MR FLORES: That is how I put it here, that's correct.
MR MOERANE: Now did that occur?
MR FLORES: No, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: Why did you put it in?
MR FLORES: Chairperson, at that stage, as I have answered previously, I placed Mr Venter there because some of the people had to drive from the farm, that would be Vlakplaas, Chairperson, on their way to Island Rock for the team-building effort, as was mentioned before and as Mr Martinus Ras had said, he had firearms and made it available for the planting thereof. I did not even know that. That Mr Venter was at the scene, he was definitely not at the scene. If I recall correctly, and I believe somebody might assist me with this, at approximately 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock late morning, after 12 midnight, Mr Venter and other members arrived or stopped at the Piet Retief Security Branch - I did not mention this in my application, on route to Island Rock. And it might be because I saw him there and that might have sketched the picture that he might have brought the things there.
MR MOERANE: But you see you say
"Three hours later, Roelf Venter delivered the goods, which was placed by the victims."
In other words, I assume you mean placed near the victims. Is that what you are trying to say by that?
MR FLORES: I am trying to say, Chairperson, that I heard "Roelf Venter", three hours later I saw him, as I have said, I saw him at Piet Retief, things were planted, so I assumed that he had brought the material to be planted. For example the pistol as the previous witness had said. That was my impression.
MR MOERANE: But isn't that how you recalled the incident?
MR FLORES: That's how - at that stage when I made my statement, that is how I saw it.
MR MOERANE: I have a problem also with the second page of your amnesty application, page 47. You see when you describe the incident you say
"The three of us (that is yourself, Mr Vermeulen and Mr de Kock) were well ahead of the rest."
In other words, you ran ahead after this kombi had stopped.
"... and Haynes ..."
I suppose by Haynes you mean Hayes, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That's correct.
MR MOERANE
"... had a spotlight and was giving us light from behind."
Then you say:
"A shot rang out from the vehicle."
That is what I have a problem with. No shot rang out from the vehicle. What's your comment?
MR FLORES: Chairperson yes, as I have stated it here - as we have heard previously, the vehicle moved past and did not stop at the place where it was supposed to stop and as I recall, Col de Kock, myself and Mr Vermeulen and Mr Nortje were the first ones who arrived at the vehicle. We were also the first persons who started shooting at that stage. I don't know who carried the light because the Eastern Transvaal people arrived there after we did. Yes, I did hear a shot fired from that side of the vehicle.
I mention here that it came from the vehicle. I am not an expert in arms, it may be so that Col de Kock had fired first, it may have been that these were his shots. When I ran to the vehicle I heard shots fired and I shot afterwards. I cannot say whether, after I had heard Col de Kock's evidence, that it did come from the vehicle. That is correct so.
MR MOERANE: So do you accept that Col de Kock fired the first shot, that killed the occupant of the kombi?
MR FLORES: I would accept it as such, yes Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And do you accept that the version that you gave in a statement in preparation for the second inquest, which is found in bundle 5, page 60, is false? Have a look at that.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: That's a statement which was taken from you - well let me not say it was taken from you, that's a statement which you signed on the 22nd of December 1989 in Pretoria, which was attested by Brig van Wyk.
MR FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson, I did not make this statement, I assume that it was drawn up and I only signed it.
MR CORNELIUS: Mr Moerane, 22nd of June.
MR MOERANE: What did I say?
MR CORNELIUS: December.
MR MOERANE: Oh I'm sorry, I meant the 22nd of June 1989. That's right, yes.
So you say this was just placed before you and you signed it?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: But you accept that the basic content is false, the gist of it is false?
MR FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: You see on page 61, first paragraph, third line, it says
"The passenger, left in front, jumped out of the vehicle and started firing."
You actually didn't see that occur?
MR FLORES: No, I did not see that at all, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: But that was the version that was supposed to be placed before the inquest. In fact that was actually placed before the inquest magistrate.
MR FLORES: That is how I heard it now, yes Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: Yes. And it's on the basis of this statement and the others, where he came to the conclusions that this was a legitimate attempt to arrest these people at a moving, moving as he calls it, moving roadblock and that the police acted properly under the circumstances?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson, all these things that were mentioned there are false.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane, if I could just ask surrounding this statement.
Mr Flores, Big van Wyk, did he have a consultation with you before he prepared this statement and before it was presented to you for signing, or was it just presented to you as a fait accompli which you had to sign? Because there's certain information like:
"I fired 20 rounds from my 30 round R1 magazine."
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, small things like the rounds that's just been mentioned are true because that came from when they did the reconstruction. We had to point out where we stood etc., etc, but the fabrications like the blue light that I've just been questioned about, that is all false. The statement - I can't recall being, because at that stage what I can specifically remember is ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't a question of you sitting down with Brig van Wyk and then him in his longhand writing out the statement which he sent to the typing pool for typing and it came back later and you knew what was in it before you actually signed it?
MR FLORES: Not at all, this was delivered by my house, I was on leave at that stage. I just signed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Moerane?
MR MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
In fact a shooting incident report had already been compiled much much earlier, the previous year, by I think it was Colonel or Lt Human, wherein the number of shots that each of the people fired was included.
MR FLORES: Excuse me, can you just repeat please.
MR MOERANE: Is it correct that to your knowledge, after any shooting incident "'n skiet voorval" report is completed by an officer?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Yes. And what I'm saying is that with regard to both incidents, such reports were compile. In the first incident it was Lt Combrink who did that and in the second incident it was a Lt Human who did that. It's amongst the many documents here before us.
MR FLORES: If you state it as such I would agree with you, that's correct.
MR MOERANE: Yes. And in these reports the people who were involved in the shooting are mentioned, the type of firearms that they had are mentioned, the number of bullets or ammunition that they had is mentioned and the number that they fired is also mentioned, but of course in both incidents the reports were false.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And it's possible that Brig van Wyk obtained the information about the number of shots you had fired, from that shooting incident report.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Mr Flores, were you at the reconstruction?
MR FLORES: On the second incident, yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Just on that, were there other members from C1 present at that reconstruction?
MR FLORES: If I can recall I think everyone that was part of this incident was there, they could just help me when they testify, but I'm sure they were there.
CHAIRPERSON: Even Mr de Kock?
MR FLORES: I can't recall if only a group was sent down, I speak under correction there. It could be that he was there, but I can't directly place Col de Kock there.
MR MOERANE: Thank you, Chairperson.
Another problem that I have is the identity of the kombi. I see in your statement you say it was a white E20 kombi, which is a Nissan. Do you recall the make of the kombi?
MR FLORES: Chairperson, I said E20. I was under the impression that a Hi-Ace and an E20 was the same thing.
MR MOERANE: Well the one is a Nissan, the other is a Toyota.
MR FLORES: I did not know that, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: So you're just referring to it almost as a generic name, like a kombi is a minibus?
MR FLORES: That's correct.
MR MOERANE: You say you were a junior member of C1 at the time.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And you say you've carried out instructions, you asked no questions.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: Did anyone tell you that yours was to carry out instructions and ask no questions?
MR FLORES: Not directly told to me, but from the policy we accepted it as such and assumed it.
MR MOERANE: You say C1 was a covert counter-insurgency unit.
MR FLORES: That is correct, I mentioned it as such.
MR MOERANE: Was it that?
MR FLORES: That is how I experienced it, that's correct.
MR MOERANE: Was it meant to be that?
MR FLORES: I believe so, yes, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And for how long were you with C1? I think you have mentioned it in your statement.
MR FLORES: I believe two years, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And what were the years?
MR FLORES: '87 to the beginning 1990, the end of 1989.
MR MOERANE: And then you joined what you referred to as a Directorate of Covert Operation of Military Intelligence.
MR FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: That's not the correct name of that, is it?
MR FLORES: No, no.
MR MOERANE: I think it's Directorate of ...(intervention)
MR FLORES: Directorate of Covert Collection.
MR MOERANE: ... Covert Collection, yes. Have you applied for amnesty with regard to your escapade to the United Kingdom, with Bamala Durandt?
MR FLORES: I have, Mr Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: I see. I won't ask you about that. Who actually told you in effect, that you could shoot at people rather than arrest them, even if there is an opportunity to arrest them?
MR FLORES: Nobody put it to me as such, Chairperson. During that time, as the people know today, C1 was an operational unit and if you rendered service there it was accepted that that is how one acts operationally with regard to the ANC and the PAC.
MR MOERANE: Is your evidence that whilst you were a member of C1 you engaged in a series of unlawful actions, such as murdering people?
MR FLORES: During that time we did not believe that we acted illegally or that our actions were illegal. If we look back in hindsight, then you can put it as such, that it was illegal.
CHAIRPERSON: But then it - just arising out of that, Mr Flores, if you did not believe you were acting illegally, then what's the point in covering up?
MR FLORES: Sorry, I don't understand.
CHAIRPERSON: I say if the feeling was that you were not acting illegally, if that was what the members were of the view, why then have cover-up operations, why make false statements, why put weapons in people's hands when they weren't there, that sort of thing? If you were of the view that it was legal, there would surely be no point to cover up an operation.
MR FLORES: Sorry, I think - let me rephrase it, Mr Chairperson. Yes, we did do illegal things, that's why we covered it up and we thought we're doing the right thing at that stage, although it was illegal we knew it. I don't know if I'm expressing it the right way.
MR MOERANE: I can appreciate your difficulty because you must have known that it was illegal to kill a defenceless person.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And you must have known that it was illegal to set up an ambush whose intention and whose idea and whose purpose and objective, was to kill rather than arrest them.
MR FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: And of course you knew that it was illegal to commit perjury, common-law perjury and statutory perjury.
MR FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE: If you'll bear with me. No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
Tell me what time - the incident on the 8th of June, what time did that incident take place, what time of the night or day?
MR FLORES: Chairperson, I mentioned a time between nine and ten, but it was late at night, yes.
MS LOCKHAT: You said - in cross-examination by Adv Moerane, you said that you said that you saw Mr Venter three hours later in Piet Retief, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is how I mentioned it, yes.
MS LOCKHAT: So would that be about 1 o'clock the evening, 12 o'clock ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he said in his evidence he came about between ...(break in tape) in the early morning.
MS LOCKHAT: Was that a usual time to meet someone at Piet Retief, that time in the morning?
CHAIRPERSON: He said he was on his way to Island Rock from Pretoria and he stopped there.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to check something. Was he - where did you meet him exactly?
MR FLORES: As I have said, it was at the Security Branch. The whole C-Section travelled at midnight from the farm to Island Rock and they had to come past Piet Retief to arrive there, it is on the route.
MS LOCKHAT: So was he basically coming there to go with you to Island Rock?
MR FLORES: When we saw him, Chairperson, they stopped there as I recall and had placed him there and they departed from there because they all went to Island Rock together. Col de Kock, myself and Mr Ras only joined them the following day at Island Rock.
MS LOCKHAT: So basically, on page 46 in bundle 1, because there you basically emphatically state that he was there at the incident, it seemed unequivocal by you.
MR FLORES: As I have mentioned previously, Chairperson, I heard the name Roelf Venter and then there was the problem that no weapons were found on the persons and I drew the inference that he was asked to bring the weapons to the scene because they were on their way to Island Rock. He was definitely not at the scene. I did not place him at the scene as such, but I am certain that I saw him later that evening at the Security Branch.
MS LOCKHAT: That evening at the Security Branch, did you discuss this incident with him?
MR FLORES: I did not speak to him at all.
MS LOCKHAT: And when you got to Island Rock, can you tell us all the members that were present there?
CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that it was the whole of C1, do we need to know all the names?
MS LOCKHAT: Brig Schoon, relating to - did you discuss this incident with Brig Schoon as well?
MR FLORES: I would never have discussed any operation with a senior, that would have been dealt with by Mr de Kock.
MS LOCKHAT: And did Mr de Kock discuss it with Brig Schoon?
MR FLORES: I don't know, he may have.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: Just as a follow-up on one of the aspects Ms Lockhat dealt with. Again page 46
"Roelf Venter delivered the goods which was placed by the victims."
Just explain that to me. You met him at Piet Retief, the bodies had already been brought to Piet Retief to the mortuary, now the placing of the weapons by the victims, what were you trying to say there?
MR FLORES: I think I expressed myself incorrectly in this sentence, as to how I placed Roelf Venter. We all know that the weapons were planted ...(intervention)
ADV GCABASHE: You know the reason I ask you is because I immediately conjured up scenes of the victims - I beg your pardon, of the weapons being placed with the victims, photographs being taken or something along those lines. That's not what happened? It's not as if weapons were placed there so that photographs could be taken of people with these particular weapons? That's not what happened?
MR FLORES: Sorry, just repeat Ma'am, please.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what Adv Gcabashe is asking you was, were weapons placed in the hands of the victims and photographs taken of the victims with weapons lying next to them?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember, I wasn't present once, after the scene when they did the photography and all that. We would normally leave directly after an operation.
ADV GCABASHE: So that last bit of the sentence is just - I should delete it?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Just delete it.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any re-examination?
MR CORNELIUS: No thank ...(intervention)
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Before Mr Cornelius re-examines. With regard to this very issue, you see what is confusing about all this, Mr Flores, is that your last sentence, after you have described what Adv Gcabashe was talking about, you say only then the incident was reported and the procedure followed. In other words, what you are suggesting is that you all waited until these arms and explosives could be obtained and placed near the victims and then and only then was the incident reported. That's what you are saying, not so?
MR FLORES: That is how I stated it here, Chairperson. As I have said, after the incident most of our C1 people would depart for the branch. I heard for the first that Mr Ras said that he took the weapon out to put there. They would have delayed time until they obtained stuff to place there, as was mentioned, before calling the duty officer as such.
MS MOERANE: Yes, in fact there are three versions about this, there's your version, Col de Kock's version and Mr Ras' version. The one being that Roelf Venter placed those things after ...(indistinct) and arrived after three hours, Col de Kock's version, that he obtained these from the office, Piet Retief, from W/O Pienaar and Mr Ras says that he had it. Do you know which version is the truth here?
MR FLORES: I cannot answer to that, Chairperson.
MS MOERANE: In any event, do you recall whether or not photographs were taken of the victims with the firearms? That would have been normal procedure. Do you recall whether that happened?
MR FLORES: As I've mentioned, I was not there, but that would be the procedure that they would follow.
MS MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?
MR CORNELIUS: I don't have any re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, any questions?
ADV GCABASHE: No, thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, any questions?
MR MALAN: No, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Flores, that then concludes your evidence and you may stand down now. I see that it's just about 11 o'clock and this will therefore be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
