MR RORICH: Yes, Mr Chairperson, the next applicant in this matter is Bernard Mwelase. His initial application and founding and supporting affidavits are found in bundle 1 page 41 to 62. From the affidavit it is noted that it's quite a lengthy affidavit. I will attempt to restrict myself to the matters relevant at hand. The applicant will give evidence in Zulu. He is ready to take the oath.
BERNARD MWELASE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
EXAMINATION BY MR RORICH: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mwelase, what was your occupation prior to 1994?
MR MWELASE: I was employed as an askari up until January 1991, employed by the Security Branch.
MR RORICH: Can you please inform this Committee how you became an askari?
MR MWELASE: I went into exile where I joined the ANC, from there I joined the MK in Botswana which was the military wing of the ANC. After that I returned into the country. Unfortunately after a few days after I'd returned, some people informed on me that I had returned and I was then arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: What year was it that you returned to the country?
MR MWELASE: It was in December 1987. I was arrested on the 18th January 1988.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase, can you inform us please, why were you arrested?
MR MWELASE: On my return I had firearms in my possession which I was going to use in the struggle to topple the then government.
MR RORICH: And why did you become an Askari?
MR MWELASE: From the events that transpired, I was unable to fulfil my mission because when I was arrested, my mother was also arrested as well as for the fact that I was subjected to extreme torture. I was then forced and ultimately agreed to becoming an askari because my mother was also arrested when I returned and this put me in a bad light amongst family and friends.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase, do you remember an abduction round about the 15th June 1988?
MR MWELASE: I learned about that when I went to the TRC and they inquired about operations that I'd been involved in. That was when I stated to them that I'd been involved in an operation where a person was abducted in Durban. I did not remember the specific date but from the people who took down my statement, they told me about the dates and they even informed me of that person's name.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase can you please inform this Commission how it is that you became involved in this abduction?
CHAIRPERSON: What about the name of the person he's talking about?
MR RORICH: Mr Chairperson, I'll establish that at a later stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase please explain to this Commission how it is that you became involved in the abduction.
MR MWELASE: When I was released from prison I was taken to Pretoria where I joined Mr de Kock's unit at Vlakplaas. Normally we would leave Pretoria for Durban to assist in their operations, that is in identifying people whom we knew from exile. It was not only MK cadres who became askaris but also PAC members.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase, the question I posed to you was, how did you become involved in this abduction?
MR MWELASE: With regards to that abduction, we had come to the area to identify people that we might encounter and as we were still around in this area, we heard that there had been an explosion that had taken place in either Pinetown or Bothashill and we were supposed, in fact we were patrolling around the Durban area and we had been there and we were then called by Col Taylor in Verulam and informed that a person had died in an explosion. Thereafter we got into a vehicle and proceeded to that scene. On arrival we did see that person and there were police in uniform who had cordoned off the area. That person was maimed, his lower jaw was missing, his stomach, intestines everything was all over the place and we were asked if we knew this person and we could not identify the person. We were asked to identify the kind of weapon used in the explosion and Stanley picked up a metal piece and on examining this piece we concluded that it was a mini limpet mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is this Stanley?
MR MWELASE: It was Stanley Moni from Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: Give me that name again, Stanley what?
MR MWELASE: Moni.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?
MR MWELASE: M-O-N-I.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he also am askari?
MR MWELASE: Yes.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase, after you had identified the explosive device, could you please informed the Commission what happened thereafter?
CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on.
MR MWELASE: Col Taylor was present at that scene, but we left him there and we got into the kombi and went about our business and were still discussing this matter. When we returned to the base in Verulam, we met Larry, Sgt Larry Hattingh as well as Warrant Myeza and Mr Brown. Mr Brown was a South African Police member, a black member, whose nickname was Mr Brown and he would normally drive us from Pretoria to Durban. We had a discussion about someone who had survived this explosion who was apparently the brother to the deceased. It was planned that we were to meet this person. In fact we first went to the hospital to see this young man and we discovered that he had shrapnel all over his face, his face was swollen and he was seriously injured and Col Taylor asked this young man who had given him the limpet mine and the boy indicated that it had been given to them by Mr Ninela. From what I could surmise, it appeared that Mr Myeza was not sure of how to get hold of this person and we had to come up with a plan of how to abduct this person and it was at that point planned that we would pretend to be MK cadres because if he was approached by the police, he might divulge everything and that is why we decided that we would go to him, explain to him that we are going to take him out of the country. The plan was that he was going to be told that he was going to be taken out of the country because of the weapon that he had given to these other boys.
We then went to his place and it was Myeza who drove the vehicle and I was with Stanley as well. Stanley and myself went into the house, we found him with his girlfriend. I cannot identify this person. We introduced...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry Mr Mwelase, if you can just go a little bit slower you might make more progress, because you're going a lit bit quickly and the interpreters are having to backtrack and ask you more questions to explain. If you could just slow down a little bit, it will help everybody. Thanks.
CHAIRPERSON: People have to be told. They must get the chance to understand what is being said. Carry on. You went to a house and he was there with his girlfriend. Where was this house?
MR MWELASE: I do not know the Durban area well and on our trips we will just patrol around the city but this place was around Pinetown on the outskirts of Pinetown. It was, it looked more like a rural area ...(indistinct) I'm not sure.
CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear the interpreter.
Yes.
INTERPRETER: The applicant said the area was rural in nature and it could have been Dengezi or ...(indistinct). We then found this man with his girlfriend and we talked to him and he then believed our story, because Taylor had given me a hand-grenade to use in our discussion, so I removed this grenade, I showed it to him and asked him if he had given that boy something similar and he said no it wasn't and he explained how that weapon looked like and I therefore concluded that it was indeed a limpet mine. I returned that grenade to my pocket and we discussed that we should arrange for a later meeting and he should stay put at home, we will return for him. We then left and reported that we had fulfilled our mission. We had found the person and he had believed our story that we were MK guerrillas and later on we returned to his house but could not find him, but we found a certain woman and we were not sure whether he had suspected something and became afraid, decided to run away. We then discussed with Stanley and decided to leave a note telling him to meet us at the Pinetown post office. Col Taylor's aim was that we should take him out of his home on the very same day, but unfortunately we did not find him, therefore we left that note. We had left a note telling him of the date of when we would meet. We then went for that appointment. We arrived there 13 minutes prior the appointment time and he arrived on the scheduled time and I asked him how safe he was and he said we should not worry about that. We then thought that maybe he is being escorted by someone or some persons. We had arranged that we would take him to a pre-arranged spot where he would be arrested. Stanley then bought two cooldrinks. He bought three, one for each of us and then we just went around talking and we went down the road and as we approached a certain vehicle, Myeza and others, Mr Myeza and Vusondala ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, spell that.
MR MWELASE: V-U-S-O-N-D-A-L-A. They jumped out of that vehicle and they pointed their firearms at us. Mr Myeza showed us his appointment card, identifying himself as a policeman and we were all taken into this vehicle. It was a VW bakkie. Whilst we were inside, we explained to this young man that we should tell the truth, in fact he should tell the truth and he was disappointed that we had betrayed him. He was searched and they did not find anything on him. I do not know whether Myeza had pre-arranged with Col Taylor to meet him somewhere, but we drove to a certain spot where we met Col Taylor. It was somewhere along the South Coast near Umgababa. I do not know the specific area in which we were but as we arrived there we all got out of the vehicle. I do not remember whether Mr Taylor and other while people rode in the same vehicle as we did. I remember a Sgt Larry Hattingh who was present, he was from Pretoria and there were a couple of beers that we drank and at that particular point this person was being assaulted. We had fulfilled our mission to hand him over to them and he was being interrogated on who had trained him on the use of this device. At that time we were busy drinking our beer and then the three of us left that scene and we left him with those white officers and we returned to Verulam.
After a few days we returned to Pretoria. When we returned on another day, I inquired from the Colonel and the people who worked in Durban as to how that incident had gone and they informed me that yes, he agreed to become an askari and he was sent to Swaziland and I did not question this.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was it that told you this? You said some time later when you came back from Pretoria you inquired about this man. From who did you inquire?
MR MWELASE: Col Taylor was very free in responding to our questions so I asked him as well as Mr Myeza and I did not question what he told me because even I who had been trained to fight the same government, I had agreed because of various reasons, had ultimately agreed to becoming an askari, so I thought that there was no reason for him to refuse. Thereafter I did not make any other inquiries about him. I worked in Pretoria until I requested him a transfer to Durban because of the assaults I suffered under Mr de Kock.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase, at the time of the abduction, who was your Commanding Officer?
MR MWELASE: It was Mr de Kock. I was coming from Pretoria.
MR RORICH: And why do you think the abduction of Blessing Ninela was arranged?
CHAIRPERSON: Did he know that that man was Blessing Ninela?
MR RORICH: Mr Chairperson, at that stage no.
MR MWELASE: We as askaris had to protect ourselves against MK who were intent on getting us because of our betrayal but I was following an order that I should go and abduct that person, but I did not know that he was going to be ultimately killed and when this person arrived at the car, Mr Myeza said, "Yes, this is the day that I finally get you, because I've been telling you for a long time that I'm going to catch you."
CHAIRPERSON: By what name did you know this man when you went to see him the first time at that house and you spoke to him?
MR MWELASE: I did not know his name. I had never ever seen him before.
CHAIRPERSON: Had you not asked him his name?
MR MWELASE: We were informed on who to ask for when we arrived there, but I cannot recall that now because there are too many names that I came across, but yes, we were informed on who to approach at that house, but it wasn't a thing that I kept in my mind, there was no need to do that.
MR LAX: Mr Mwelase, the person that you abducted, do you now know him as Blessing Ninela?
MR MWELASE: Yes, I do. I got that information from the TRC. Yes, as we are speaking about him now, I do remember the name.
MR LAX: During your time of working as an askari, how did you survive financially?
MR MWELASE: After about 3 months, I received a police appointment card and I received a salary. I would receive a monthly salary.
CHAIRPERSON: This as an askari?
MR MWELASE: Yes, because I had already begun serving. Some askaris had become sergeants by the time I arrived and those received a better salary than we did.
CHAIRPERSON: No, my question to you was, what did you as an askari receive? What salary did you get as an askari?
MR MWELASE: I received about R1 200 after deductions and we would also receive an allowance for travelling. For instance if we leave Pretoria for Durban, we will receive about R500 and my salary for that month would be more.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase did you receive any reward for the abduction of Mr Ninela?
MR MWELASE: No. After you've been appointed as an askari you do not receive any other money except for your salary and allowances. I did not receive any reward except for those few cans of beer that we had, that was the only thing that we received, but if I were to, if I did buy alcohol for myself, I was beaten up.
MR RORICH: Mr Mwelase, is it correct that you apply for amnesty for any criminal prosecution that may lead from this abduction or any delictual action?
MR MWELASE: Yes, I do sincerely request amnesty. I'm not sure if I can be given a chance to explain just what I seek amnesty for?
Firstly, I would like to seek forgiveness from my former comrades who sent me into this country to fight the regime, which I did not do.
Secondly, I would also like to request forgiveness from the deceased's family. I did not know that they were going to kill him. When I abducted him, I thought that they were going to follow the legal proceedings of the land. Yes I did play a role when I pretended to be an MK guerrilla and in that way I handed him over for them to kill him. I am not a murderer, I have never killed a person but I did work with murderers, therefore indirectly I did kill. I am not very different from Judas Iscariot who betrayed the Lord Jesus.
CHAIRPERSON: After you met him at the Pinetown post office, you said you took him to a pre-arranged spot. What does that mean? With whom was this arrangement? Who was this person with whom you had pre-arranged?
MR MWELASE: It was Col Taylor. He is the person who was in charge of everyone, therefore the decision came from him and the person on the ground cannot defy the decision of the person in charge. Col Taylor was the person in charge and every decision came from him. We were under de Kock who had given us over to his friend, Col Taylor.
CHAIRPERSON: Now then, when you saw this man for the first time at a house, he was with his girlfriend, at that stage you pretended that you were an MK cadre?
MR MWELASE: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he appear to be satisfied or believe what you said?
MR MWELASE: Yes, he did believe it. We even asked him if he is the person who handed that explosive device to these two persons, one of whom was deceased and he admitted that yes, he did and we asked him where he had got it from and he said he had been, he had received it from some guerrillas who had left and never returned. He said that he had not used this device for a long time and we concluded that maybe it had become rusted, that is why it exploded when it did and he gave this device during the Inkatha/ANC war. That is what he told us and he admitted to us that yes, it had been him who had handed over the device but that was the only one that he had had in his possession.
CHAIRPERSON: From that I conclude that he had no other weapons?
MR MWELASE: I do not know with regards to his home, whether he had any stored there, but when we met him at the post office, he did not have any on him. I do not know whether he had any of these around his home.
MR RORICH: Chairperson, that's the evidence for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RORICH
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are there any questions you wish to put to him?
MR VISSER: Two matters, with your permission, Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Mwelase, is my understanding correct that when the askaris and their handlers went from Vlakplaas to different areas in the country to attempt to trace terrorists and to identify and arrest them, that you would fall under the command of the Commanding Officer in the area in which you worked, would that be correct?
MR MWELASE: Yes, that is correct. We were under the command of Mr de Kock in Pretoria, but when we came to Durban we would be under Col Taylor's command, who was responsible for the Natal region.
MR VISSER: And that would explain why Col de Kock really didn't feature in this incident at all, you got your orders from Col Taylor?
MR MWELASE: That's correct. Col Taylor had his own unit and he was recruiting others as well.
MR VISSER: Now another matter which you mentioned, you said that you thought that Taylor would follow the normal legal procedures, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: Just enlarge on that because by itself that question...
MR VISSER: Yes, well towards the end of your evidence you said that you handed the man over to Taylor and you then added you thought that they would follow the normal legal procedures, I take it, with him. Is that correct?
MR MWELASE: I was certain, it's not something that I thought. I was certain that they will investigate and know because they did the same with us. They investigated and they interrogated us and they got the truth, I thought they were going to do the same with him.
MR VISSER: So, normally in your experience, when somebody was arrested, he would be interrogated, is that correct?
MR MWELASE: Yes.
MR VISSER: Taking your own example, there would be an attempt to recruit him to work for the Security Police, is that correct?
MR MWELASE: Yes, that person will be recruited and if they cannot recruit the person, then the person will be prosecuted.
MR VISSER: That was my next question. Now so knowing what you know now, according to your experience this was an exception, the fact that as we know now Mr Ninela was in fact murdered, that was an exception to what you were used to?
MR MWELASE: When I was in exile as an MK, I knew that, that the Security Branch will sometimes kill you after they have arrested you, more especially when they arrest you when there is no witness to witness that arrest, then they will kill you.
MR VISSER: The point is that would be the exception, in your experience?
CHAIRPERSON: What does it matter?
MR MWELASE: I wouldn't know because there are different units. Some units may have done things like that but I didn't know. My work was just to identify the people.
MR VISSER: Let's leave that then. But normally if you had identified a person, that person was arrested, would he not be normally taken to a police station where he would be booked in and kept and charged later?
MR MWELASE: Yes, the person was arrested and interrogated at the police station.
MR VISSER: That didn't happen in the case of Mr Ninela, did it?
MR MWELASE: No, it didn't happen that way. We left him in a certain forest, in an old house.
MR VISSER: And you yourself say that you're applying for amnesty for his abduction, so you knew he was being abducted?
MR MWELASE: Yes, because we told him something which was false. We told him that we were helping him to escape and that's why I'm saying, I'm asking amnesty for getting involved in the abduction of Mr Ninela.
MR VISSER: Yes. So right from the word go, normal legal procedures were not followed, that's all I want to ask you. Do you agree? In the case of Mr Ninela.
MR MWELASE: Yes, we didn't follow the normal procedures.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gabriel.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL: Mr Mwelase, I just want to go back to something you told us earlier on, when you went to the hospital. Do you remember that area? You went to the hospital to look at the brother of one boy who had been blown up.
MR MWELASE: Yes, I do remember.
MS GABRIEL: Okay. You said,
"We went to the hospital to see this young man. Taylor asked this young man who had given him the mine and he said Ninela gave it to him."
MR MWELASE: Yes, Taylor was asking him. We were at the corridor of the hospital and he and Taylor were inside the ward and it was closed but we could hear what they were talking about, even though we could not follow the whole conversation, because we were also talking about how injured he was, therefore I could not tell everything Taylor had spoken to the man, but I did remember hearing Taylor asking him who gave him the limpet mine.
MS GABRIEL: Right then after you told the Committee that, you said next,
"Myeza then had to plan the abduction of Ninela. We had to pretend to be MK cadres because if Ninela was approached by the police, he might divulge everything."
What did you mean by that?
MR MWELASE: You mean in hospital?
MS GABRIEL: Oh, you meant the man in the hospital?
MR MWELASE: We didn't discuss about this in hospital.
Would you please address your question? I need to understand your question clearly.
MS GABRIEL: Okay, what I'm trying to understand, if I heard your evidence correctly, will you please help me understand what you said earlier on?
MR MWELASE: I am saying what happened in hospital is that Taylor was the one who was questioning the man and we also took a look at this man and we realised that we didn't know the person. Taylor questioned him as to who gave him the limpet mine. The man said to Taylor it was Ninela who gave him the limpet mine and Myeza there and then said to us he knew Mr Ninela and he was a troublesome man. He said so in hospital. This is the only thing which happened in hospital because Taylor couldn't assault the man who was in hospital, he was going to be arrested himself if he could have done that.
MS GABRIEL: But you mentioned somebody and you said,
"We had to then plan an abduction."
You said that if somebody was approached by the police this person would divulge everything. What did you mean by that? Who were you talking about?
MR MWELASE: Are you referring to the person who was in hospital, or the person who was at home? Which one are you talking about?
MS GABRIEL: I'm referring, Mr Mwelase, to what you said. Now it may be that I was mistaken, but I made notes of you saying that the abduction had to happen because if Ninela was approached by the police, he might divulge everything.
CHAIRPERSON: So the abduction obviously did not relate to the man who was in hospital.
MR MWELASE: I understand.
MS GABRIEL: Will you please tell me what that meant?
MR MWELASE: Yes, I do understand now. When we were planning, Myeza and Taylor, they said if Ninela was going to be approached by police, things were not going to go according to the plan, therefore ...(intervention.
MS GABRIEL: What plan was this?
MR MWELASE: We were askaris, we were just taking instructions from the senior men and what we were told was that Stanley and myself were supposed to go and approach Ninela.
MS GABRIEL: So all you heard then was them refer to a plan? Do you have any idea what plan this was? When they said things would not go according to plan, what did they mean?
MR MWELASE: Yes, they actually said so, that police should not be involved in abducting him and I don't know their reasons why. I don't know why they came to this conclusion. Maybe they were scared that people will know, maybe the people from the area are ANC people and they will know that the police are involved. This is what I'm just thinking, I'm just speculating their reasons, but I don't know and I didn't know at the time why they wanted to use askaris.
MS GABRIEL: The people in the are would know that the police were involved, what do you mean by that? Involved in what? In the death of the boy?
MR MWELASE: In killing him. This is what I'm thinking, I'm not talking about his death because at the time I didn't even know that there was a plan of killing him.
CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes the whole problems arise as a result of interpretation. Do you understand?
MS GABRIEL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: The gist of it, as I understand it is, they'd already got the information that Ninela was the man who had supplied the explosive. The question now was, should that be referred to the police to go and arrest Ninela or should we devise a plan and abduct Ninela, so it was decided that the police should not have anything to do with arresting Ninela and charging him with whatever they want to charge him.
MS GABRIEL: My concern, Mr Chair, is that I distinctly heard Mr Mwelase saying that he had to be abducted because if he was approached by the police he might divulge everything.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words, they didn't want the police to go and arrest Ninela, that might lead to complications which the police did not want.
MS GABRIEL: I see. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: So then they decided they'd make use of askaris and abduct Ninela. That's a sense of the evidence as I understand it.
MS GABRIEL: Well, Mr Mwelase, let me as you.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that right?
MS GABRIEL: Is that correct?
ANSWER: ...(indistinct)
MS GABRIEL: Okay. Mr Mwelase, just one final question, you said when Mr Ninela was - when you took Mr Ninela to this pre-arranged spot, the point at which he was arrested, he was searched and they did not find anything on him. I just want to confirm that with you.
MR MWELASE: Yes, nothing was found in his possession. Nothing at all. I don't know about money, but there was no weapon at all.
MS GABRIEL: Mr Mwelase, one final question, when you went to the hospital, how did you introduce yourselves to this boy on the bed?
MR MWELASE: Col Taylor and Myeza, they are well-known police in Durban. The only thing which we did was just to look at him and Taylor was the one who was talking to him and Taylor and Myeza were well-known policemen.
MS GABRIEL: Okay, thank you very much, Mr Mwelase. I have no more questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Who in fact arrested Ninela? Which policeman?
MR MWELASE: We abducted him and we didn't force him to come with us, but when we arrived at the car, guns were pointed at us, all of us, they pretended as if they're arresting all three of us.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the question was, who was it? Was it the army or was it the police in uniform, was it the police in private clothes?
MR MWELASE: Security Branch, Myeza and the askaris who were under Col Taylor and other askaris who were also from Pretoria and they were just wearing their clothes, their personal clothes.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
MS THABETHE: Just a few, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.
MS THABETHE: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Mwelase, you said in your evidence, you did not know that when Mr Ninela was abducted, he was going to be killed. You thought that he was going to be arrested.
MR MWELASE: Yes, I didn't know that. That's exactly what I thought.
MS THABETHE: Right, I've got two questions arising out of your evidence. The first question is, why do you think he was abducted?
MR MWELASE: I wasn't in a position to dispute anything which was suggested by the police or the SB, I was just a cheap askari. My duties were just to follow the instructions.
CHAIRPERSON: The question that is put to you is did you know why he was abducted?
MR MWELASE: Myeza had already indicated that this man was a troublesome man and he said so after the explosion of the bomb, therefore we were not going to dispute it because we were also scared. De Kock was torturing us and if we didn't follow their instructions, we were going to be hit by Mr de Kock going back to Pretoria.
MS THABETHE: Why I'm asking you this, it's because of your evidence. I don't think you understand my question. You see, in your evidence you said you're not sure why he was abducted but you thought - okay, you didn't think that they were going to kill him, but you thought that he was going to be arrested. Do you remember saying that?
MR MWELASE: I did mention that I was certain that he was going to arrested and interrogated, but I was not sure, or I didn't think that he was going to be killed. I, as a guerrilla, I was also arrested and interrogated and turned to be an askari.
MS THABETHE: Okay, so you're saying you were sure that they were going to interrogate him?
MR MWELASE: Yes.
MS THABETHE: And then interrogate him to do what? What do you think the purpose was for interrogating him? That's what I want to get to. Why was he abducted and interrogated? What was the purpose behind doing that? Why do you think they needed to do that, for what purpose?
MR MWELASE: The reason is simple. There was a person who just died from an explosive which he was given by him, that was the reason why they should interrogate him because the person who was in hospital had already revealed that they've taken or they got that explosive from him. This was the reason why they should arrest him and interrogate him or maybe even to turn him into an askari like us.
MS THABETHE: Okay. You see, according to the evidence of the other applicants and according to your evidence as well, there was no limpet mine that was found in Mr Ninela, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing was found on him.
MS THABETHE: Nothing was found on him.
MR MWELASE: No, I didn't see any limpet mine and we were the ones who were with him inside the car and he didn't have a limpet mine.
MR LAX: Sorry, you're asking the question before the translation's finished. Can you just repeat the answer please Ms Interpreter? I could hear the question on one ear and the answer in the other.
CHAIRPERSON: We were in the car with him and he had no limpet mine.
MR LAX: Thank you.
MS THABETHE: You see, according to Mr Taylor's application, because there was nothing on him, or as he puts it, there was no evidence against him, they could not take him to court and as a result they decided to kill him because there was no evidence. Now would you dispute the fact that maybe he was interrogated so that they could turn him to work for them as an informer? Would you dispute that?
MR MWELASE: What I can say is that I cannot read Col Taylor's thoughts. I'm coming here for the first time because I'm requesting amnesty because of the role that I played in the killing of Mr Ninela, even though I don't know how they killed him. In fact, I didn't even know if he was killed. I don't know how they killed him, but I played a role by abducting him. I don't know a lot about this.
MS THABETHE: You see, why I'm asking you this question, it's because of the evidence you gave earlier on. In your evidence you said you thought they would do what they normally do, for example with yourself, you were interrogated and you eventually agreed to work for the policemen, so you thought they were going to do the same thing with him. Do you remember saying that?
MR MWELASE: Yes, I do remember.
MS THABETHE: Just hold it there. I don't want you to explain any further.
MR MWELASE: When I mentioned my being an askari, I did come back to them and ask them about what happened to Mr Ninela and they told me that they had sent him to Swaziland to work for them. I did ask them as to what happened eventually about Mr Ninela and they told me that he was in Swaziland and he was working for them.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is they? Who are the ones that told you that?
MR MWELASE: I did mention before that it was Col Taylor and Myeza because these two we used to ask them anything everything, and they will tell us.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS THABETHE: Okay, so you are saying you didn't know what was going to happen to him after he was abducted. You didn't know why he was abducted. You can't even say whether he was abducted to be recruited or not, but you think he was going to be interrogated about the bomb, the explosion that had happened earlier on. My question is, what do you think would have happened to him if he was interrogated and he did not co-operate, taking into consideration that there was nothing found on him?
MR MWELASE: It is difficult to speak on speculation, more especially to say something that what I thought those years and I am not sure, I've never recorded my thoughts, even now if someone can ask me about what I thought, I wouldn't say, really I wouldn't say exactly. I was scared at this man because they tortured me a lot, but they didn't kill me.
MS THABETHE: Well I thought as an, you said you were an experienced askari, I thought you could know from your experience what happens to a person who fails to co-operate with interrogation, but seemingly you say you wouldn't know, so I leave it at that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, otherwise it will be speculation.
MS THABETHE: Yes, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?
MR RORICH: No, Mr Chairman, not at all.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RORICH
MR LAX: Just one question. It's really an ancillary issue. Who, besides Myeza, who were the others that arrested this man and yourself, that's yourself and Sidney, Stanley, I beg your pardon?
MR MWELASE: It was Vusondala, David - I've forgotten his last name, Philemon Kululegu.
MR LAX: It doesn't matter if you can't remember the rest. The one other aspect is that you actually arrested this man. You took out your appointment card - they took out their appointment cards and they arrested you. They said "We are police officers and we are arresting you". Is that right?
MR MWELASE: As we were approaching the car, they came out and they took their appointment cards and they said they were arresting us and they had arranged that this thing should happen quick so that other people don't see or there are no witnesses and we were not searched outside, because we thought that maybe there was an escort, or his own escort whom we didn't see.
MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that this was an arrest in a public place, isn't that so?
MR MWELASE: Yes, it was in a public area.
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are you calling any other witnesses?
MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rorich?
MR RORICH: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gabriel?
MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair, the first witness on behalf of the victim's family will be Mrs Gratina Ninela and her evidence is found in bundle 2 pages 56 to 58.
GRATINA NINELA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela will speak in both English and Zulu.
CHAIRPERSON: How are we going to do that?
MS GABRIEL: Well, I believe it's going to be primarily in English.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's do the best we can.
MS GABRIEL: Right. Mrs Ninela, do you remember making a statement in this matter to TRC investigators and that is the statement that appears on pages 56 to 58 of bundle 2. Is that correct?
MRS NINELA: ...(inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON: We can't hear what she said.
MRS NINELA: I wish I had the paper here.
MS GABRIEL: Do you want the paper?
MRS NINELA: Yes, please.
MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, do you live in kwaNcolosi, under Chief Bhekisisa Bhengu, in Mahlabatini?
MRS NINELA: Yes.
MS GABRIEL: And you have heard evidence today about the killing of Blessing Ninela?
MRS NINELA: Yes.
MS GABRIEL: Describe his relationship to you.
MRS NINELA: Blessing Ninela is my fifth born out of 6 children. He was born in 1960, August 8. At the age of 3 he got ill and the doctors found out he was a cardiac case, he had some trouble with his heart, so he took treatments monthly and this treatment went on until he was 20 when the doctors decided to stop it, but check him periodically.
MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, can I just interrupt you for a minute? Did your son live with you?
MRS NINELA: He lived with me while he was still schooling, sometimes he was at my house, my mother's house, but not very long, but most of his life he lived at our house and I used to work the 5 days of the week, except when I had a holiday and I used to have a weekend off fortnightly, when I was working.
MS GABRIEL: Can you describe to us about Mr Ninela, Blessing Ninela's activities after school? After he finished school? Was he still living with you then?
MRS NINELA: He was employed by Basaf. I don't quite remember the exact time he worked with Basaf, but after some time the job was finished at Basaf and he was involved with the SAWU Union. He partly worked as a, what do you call it? He was partly an organiser in that union until he started working with Shell's company.
MS GABRIEL: When was this?
MRS NINELA: I don't quite remember the year.
CHAIRPERSON: You can lead her on that.
MS GABRIEL: Okay. How long did he work at Shell, Mrs Ninela?
MRS NINELA: That also I can't really remember because there is time when he worked as a part-time worker but finally he was registered and worked full-time. I don't remember the exact time he worked with Shell's company.
MS GABRIEL: What did he do after working with Shell?
MRS NINELA: Whilst he was still working, he was taken by police to be detained.
MS GABRIEL: Do you know why this was?
MRS NINELA: There is a time when I went to CR Swart to find out from him what was really the cause of his detention. I wasn't allowed to see him. The white police that I cam across there told me that he was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. He asked me if I knew anything about Umkhonto weSizwe. I said no, because I didn't know anything about that. So from him I didn't hear why he was detained. That policeman refused me to see him. He took a few pairs of underpants for changing and gave the rest of the clothes that I had for him to change, back to me.
MS GABRIEL: When was Blessing Ninela detained by the police?
MRS NINELA: It was in 1987, I think it was January, if I can remember well.
MS GABRIEL: And how long did he spend in detention?
MRS NINELA: More than 6 months. I think he was, I think he was discharged in August, I don't remember the exact date, if I'm not mistaken.
MS GABRIEL: So around August 1987 he was released from detention and did he come to live with you again?
MRS NINELA: Yes.
MS GABRIEL: Yes. And describe his activities then, what was he doing? Was he working?
MRS NINELA: He had tried to look for a job, but he couldn't get a job.
MS GABRIEL: So he just stayed at home with you?
MRS NINELA: Yes.
MS GABRIEL: Right. Now there was evidence led earlier on today about an explosion in the area involving two boys. Do you remember anything about this?
MRS NINELA: I heard the explosion sound, although I didn't know what was happening.
MS GABRIEL: When was this?
MRS NINELA: It was in June. I don't remember the exact date. What I remember is that I was at home because there was a strike. Nobody was allowed to go to work, so I was at home those days. I think that strike was to carry on for three days. I don't quite remember now, but what I remember is that I had to go back to work not knowing what had happened, but I heard the noise of the explosion.
CHAIRPERSON: What year are we talking about?
MS GABRIEL: Can you remember the year? Was this around June?
MRS NINELA: 1988.
MS GABRIEL: What else do you remember about this incident?
MRS NINELA: The night of the explosion there is a young boy who came at home. It was at night. There's something I wanted to do outside the house. When I opened the door, I realised that there was somebody coming round the corner. I went back to the house as fast as I could and locked the door because the situation was scarring at that time in the place. In the house we had my sister-in-law's son, who is far older than my children. So I told him as a man, that there is somebody I saw outside, I'm scared, I don't know what he is up to.
So he went to the door and opened the door. He realised that that boy was hurt. He opened the door and let him in. He told me that that boy was very, very, was badly hurt. Now, when I see a big sore or hear about somebody damaged or badly hurt, there is a feeling that comes inwards, in me, it seems as if there is some cold water just running in my tummy or down the leg, and down the legs. I had that feeling. I didn't go to see that boy. I gave whatever I could to help that boy, Detol, cottonwool and warm water and when I was told that he was shivering, I told them to take some disprins from my bag.
MS GABRIEL: Yes, do you know the name of this boy?
MRS NINELA: I was told the name, but I didn't know him by then, at that time. I was told the name was Senzo Bhengu, a member of the community, but I didn't know him.
MS GABRIEL: Yes.
MRS NINELA: And so the next morning when our nephew was going to work, he took him along towards his home. The taxis were taking on a little bit, not very far from his house, that is where the taxi stop was, so he took him and he asked him to go to his house and he waited for the taxi to go to work.
And another weekend after that I heard that the son of Mfanafuti Bhengu is the one that was exploded the day of the explosion. So I went with the other mourners to the house because we were very close, or friendly with the grandmother of that boy. Just because of that, I accompanied the other people to mourn, for the family. That is all about that.
CHAIRPERSON: Bhengu, was that the name of the father of the boy that was injured?
MRS NINELA: I beg your pardon.
CHAIRPERSON: The name Bhengu that you mentioned just now, was that the father of the boy who had been injured?
MRS NINELA: He was the father.
MS GABRIEL: Did you find out anything else about Bhengu's sons? You didn't?
MRS NINELA: I don't remember.
MS GABRIEL: Okay, let me move on. Mrs Ninela, why did Senzo Bhengu come to your house that evening, do you know?
MRS NINELA: I don't know. I didn't know and I didn't ask.
MS GABRIEL: Okay. Where was Blessing at this time?
MRS NINELA: He wasn't at home. I don't know where he was. Senzo told us that, I heard what he said, I didn't see him because he was in the dining room, I was in the other room. I couldn't go and see him because I was told he was badly hurt, so I didn't want to see him how hurt he was, except that when there is anything to help him, it could be done. He told me that they were walking with his brother, somebody shot them and he said he didn't know where his brother was by that time because they ran to different directions, as according to what he said. So he didn't know what had happened with his brother.
MS GABRIEL: And was he looking for Blessing?
MRS NINELA: He asked for Blessing.
MS GABRIEL: And Blessing wasn't there?
MRS NINELA: No.
MS GABRIEL: Right. Let's continue. Tell us more about Blessing. What happened after this incident? Did he continue to live with you?
MRS NINELA: One weekend when I was off, when I came home, there was nobody except the two boys who wanted to get a little job of cutting grass in the yard, which they usually do to get a little bit of money. Because I had a key, I opened the door, but there is a car that passed down towards the Inanda dam. I don't think it went as far as Inanda dam, but that is the way the car took. In a short time the car was back. It stopped on the road. The occupants went out to the shop, which is opposite my house and from there they came straight to my house. I was standing in front of the door. Actually I wanted to speak to those children that I found there. Before I could speak to them, those people were there and they asked for Blessing. I told them there was nobody at home, I opened the door because I had a key. It seemed they didn't believe me.
MS GABRIEL: Yes and then what happened?
MRS NINELA: It seemed they had a wish of going through the house to find out whether he was hiding or not, but when I thought that they wanted to do that I told them, he is really not at home and no-one else was at home. I found the doors locked and I opened the door because I had a key and then the person who was talking spoke to the two children. "Hey you boys, where are the occupants of this house?" They said they didn't know. And I asked them, "What are your surnames?" The way he laughed at me, the one who was talking, made me see that I was being fooled, though he gave me those surnames, but I realised that they were fooling me.
MS GABRIEL: What surnames did they give you, can you remember?
MRS NINELA: I don't quite remember.
MS GABRIEL: And after that the other, there were two men, one of them had very dark sunglasses and the other one, the one who had dark glasses, said, "How can a man do such a thing? We had an appointment with him and he has broken it." I couldn't say a thing about that or answer or anything and the other one said, "Will you please give us a paper and a pen?" So I went to the house, I took a pen and a paper and he wrote the message and he said, "There's nothing to be hidden there, you can read the message. Give that letter to him."
MS GABRIEL: To Blessing?
MRS NINELA: To Blessing. Okay, when Blessing came late, I gave him the letter. Of course, I had read it. And I asked him ...(intervention)
MS GABRIEL: What was on that letter?
MRS NINELA: The letter had a message to Blessing, asking him to meet those people by the post office in Pinetown at 1 o'clock on a Monday. That was on Saturday.
MS GABRIEL: Yes, and then you gave Blessing the note?
MRS NINELA: I gave Blessing the note, he read it and I asked him, "Who are those people and what were they after?"
He said, "Oh those people were investigators." I can say investigators or detectives, one of those things, then wanted to know what was happening with the boy in the hospital, that was Senzo. Well it stopped there. On Sunday I had to go back to work, but the next weekend off when I got home, Blessing was not there. His sister, who was staying at home, told me that when on Monday, when she was going to Pinetown he asked her to stop the taxi for him, he was also going, but before that he told his sister that sometimes people who are suspects of the Special Branch are taken to be killed somewhere and after they are killed there will be means of confusing the members of the family or convincing them that he is still alive. There will be people with reports that he is somewhere, mentioning any place, knowing that they have killed him, he will never ever be seen. That was before he parted. They took the same taxi as far as Durban. When they parted, he told his sister that he would be going as far as , I don't remember whether it's Swansbury or Swainsburg, but via Pinetown, as he was ordered to see those two men in Pinetown on Monday at 1 o'clock. So that is the last time he was seen alive.
MS GABRIEL: Is that the last time you saw your son?
MRS NINELA: The last time I saw my son was the time when I left home to work. My daughter who was staying at home, was the last person to see my son.
MS GABRIEL: When was the next time you heard about Blessing?
MRS NINELA: I heard that there is a young man who got home, who at the first asked where Blessing was, or whether he wanted to see Blessing, something of that sort. At the same time, he had a so to say, Blessing was somewhere, I don't remember the place. Blessing was somewhere. When I heard this, this confused me. How can a person first for Blessing and quickly he knows where Blessing is, but I couldn't ask anybody, I couldn't say anything about that, but that confused me and another one, a member of the community by the name of Mduduzi Ngedi, he was working at Checkers, Checkers that is in Game Centre, Game City I mean, he told me that Blessing came to the shop and they spoke with him and he said "what a handsome man" but he quickly went out and left. This worried me. One of the days I asked him, "By the way, you said you saw Blessing at Checkers", he said "yes". "What did he say? Where does he stay?" He said, "He said he was around".
MS GABRIEL: And when did you discover the truth about what happened to Blessing?
MRS NINELA: Early in 1987.
CHAIRPERSON: 1997.
MRS NINELA: I mean 1997, sorry. In 1997.
MS GABRIEL: Yes, tell us how you discovered this.
MRS NINELA: One of my daughters asked me to go with the other two daughters. They were staying in one place. Three of us were to go to Durban to meet somebody call Mr Mhlodi. When we got to Durban, one of the daughters had a number, phone number, to phone Mr Mhlodi to tell him that we have arrived and she did it. And when she had phoned she told us that he said, Mr Mhlodi said we must wait, he will be coming with a car. He gave her a description of the car. In a few minutes time that car drove near us and she said, my daughter said "That is the car". So we went to that car. Off we went. We were on Smith Street. We stopped by the ...(indistinct) Park, out of the car we went and we sat down. It was the first time I heard the news that my son was no more alive.
MS GABRIEL: Who gave you this news?
MRS NINELA: Mr Mhlodi. And he told us that people of the TRC are looking for Ninela's family, they can't find Ninela's family, but some people have come out, come forward asking for amnesty, but they didn't know where to find us. They told us what happened and finally told us to go to TRC offices when they were still in Durban. They said Blessing was taken to - I mean when the sister brought the news of what Blessing said the last time, he asked the sister, "Do your know where Swainsbury is?" No, she didn't know. And he said that place is round about Amanzimtoti, that is where he was killed and moved to Bulwer. A bomb was placed on him to make anybody who hears the bomb exploding or anybody coming after that, seeing his body was exploded, the impression will be that he had a bomb to put on the railway.
So after that we went straight to the TRC people where we got a piece of paper with the information which Andy Taylor gave to TRC people.
MS GABRIEL: Did you read this piece of paper?
MRS NINELA: Yes I did, though I cannot say all the details there, but there are two things that appear on the paper that confuse me, like the boy who came to my house and asked for Blessing and all of a sudden he knew where Blessing was. There is a place on that paper which says there was no evidence to send him to court.
MS GABRIEL: So why does this confuse you, Mrs Ninela?
MRS NINELA: What confuses me is that after that there is a part where, though they say there was no evidence to send him to court, though he had himself admitted that he was on mission of the bombs. What confuses me is that if at all there was no evidence to take him to court, why wasn't he released alive? If at all he had admitted that he was on a bomb mission, why wasn't he taken to court?
MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair, it would appear that Mrs Ninela is referring to the first, well the only amnesty application of Mr Taylor and that's at page 4. Yes, please continue, Mrs Ninela.
MRS NINELA: That is really confusing me, because as residents we, on most cases, put our rely on the police. If at all there's anything wrong, I have a full hope that the police will take legal actions to help me there or if I am wrong, the police will take legal actions and take the person who is wrong to court to be prosecuted by either the magistrate or a judge. It is amazing and surprising and killing me, to find out that the people who are the handlers of the law, instead of taking the lawful actions, they decided to kill him. If there was nothing else to be done except killing him, why was his identity destroyed? What wrong has the family done to the law of South Africa? If Blessing was wrong or had done anything wrong to the law of South Africa, he should have been arrested. If they decided to kill him was the only solution, why did they hide the body and his identity from the family?
MS GABRIEL: We heard evidence earlier today from two people, the first a Mr du Preez and the second a Mr Wasserman. Now, you were here and present throughout that and you heard the evidence and you heard their stories of how they killed your son. Are you satisfied with their stories?
MRS NINELA: No.
MS GABRIEL: Why not?
MRS NINELA: I'm still not answered. I still haven't got the answer, why they did it. If Blessing was wrong, he should have been arrested. What did his family do that was so wrong that the body should be hidden far away and his identity to be destroyed? I still haven't had the answer.
MS GABRIEL: Prior to today, were you ever contacted, apart from the TRC people, were you contacted by du Preez and Wasserman? Have they ever spoken to you about your son?
MRS NINELA: Till today, till this present second, they have never approached anybody of the family, any member of the family, till this second.
MS GABRIEL: Do you have any message for them?
MRS NINELA: There's something I would like to ask from them. What is it that they did that makes them to ask for amnesty? What is it that they did that makes them to ask for amnesty, because according to what they said, what they did is not wrong, was not wrong. What is it that they did that makes them to ask for an amnesty?
MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, at the time of his death, did Blessing have any dependants?
MRS NINELA: Blessing had a son who was born in 1985, October 19th, who can never identify his father. Who's father was never sick, but was killed. Whenever he hears about his father's death, he cries and that is why he is not in this house today. We had a fear of what would happen, might happen to him if he hears all the details of what was done to his father.
MS GABRIEL: So having sat here today and having heard the explanation of your son's death, are you happy with what you have learned today?
MRS NINELA: I am not happy because I don't feel what I have been told is true and I don't feel that everything that happened to my son has been revealed. What makes me not feel that way? Still today, because he is no more alive and the Andy Taylor who is to carry all the blame because he is no more alive, those who are alive are so innocent. They tell us that they found a limpet mine with him, telling clear lies. How can I believe what they're saying is true? How can anybody believe what they are telling is true? It's very hard. I know they had all the powers to do what they can, because even now they still have those powers to do what they like to anybody and after that they just take it easy and choose nice words to put on the table, knowing what is deep inside is far different from what they are telling. Why should they tell untruth stories if at all they are sorry for what they did, if at all it was Andy Taylor who asked them to do what they did?
Why don't they tell the whole truth?
MS GABRIEL: Part of the evidence led today was that Blessing was involved in terrorist activities. Blessing was involved in planting bombs and in planting explosives. Can you share with the Committee anything about that?
MRS NINELA: I heard that. I have never known it and I have no proof because I didn't see him doing it.
MS GABRIEL: And since the death of Blessing have you discovered more about his life that may lend support to what these men say, to support this belief that he was MK, that he was involved in terrorist activities?
MRS NINELA: No.
MS GABRIEL: Have you spoken to people since then?
MRS NINELA: Even before I discovered that he was no more alive, there is a man who has passed away who, after the ANC people were released, came home. He is a member of the community. I asked him about Blessing. He said he has never seen Blessing. Actually it's two people. I wanted to know the whereabouts of Blessing. I had a hope that Blessing was still alive as somebody told me that he was around and he said he never saw him, so how can I say he was involved, because I wasn't told that he was involved.
MS GABRIEL: So the first time you really hear about everything is today?
MRS NINELA: Yes.
MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, do you have anything to say to the Committee that will be considering these amnesty applications? Do you have any final message for anybody?
MRS NINELA: To my foolish thoughts, I think it's always fair to think for somebody as you would like him or her to think for you, or do a thing that you would like to be done to you and I think no matter who you are, everybody is in an image of God and I don't think even by the law there is anybody who is given power, besides a magistrate and a judge, to kill a person. And I would remind the killers that they did what they wanted to do to their satisfaction and they are still able to do more to satisfy themselves, but after everything has been done, there is a final judgment. There will be a final judgment which cannot be dodged or forged anyhow, which will be standing in front of each and every person who did it. It's disappointing to find out that people who are so reliable to the community can act this way, knowing very well what the law is and what steps to take for anybody who has done anything wrong, we are not told by anybody, but still there should be a proof and a lawful proof. Though I don't know all the details of the law, I have never heard that there is a time when there is somebody told or allowed to kill a person. There are people who kill people because they have killed anyone, but those people have been caught and sentenced for killing people who have done wrong because anybody, it's not anybody that is allowed to take those actions, except the law. I wonder why the killers took this decision, while there was a magistrate and a judge who could deal with Blessing lawfully. On top of that, I wonder why, what has the family done to those killers because it's the first day or time for them to see the family, they don't even know us, but what they did is surprising and hurtful. I'm sure they wouldn't like it done to them, or to anybody who is related to them, but it was so easy and fine to be done to us. Why? Why? Is there a mother who can clap hands and dance about what these killers did to a son? If Blessing was their son, would they like what they did to Blessing to be done to their sons? If any unlawful thing he had done, the law was there to judge him, not to be killed and hidden from the family. While they tell a statement, they don't tell the truth. They tell fibs. The back of the scull was there.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm going to object to this. We have given this witness...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You have done nothing. You have done nothing. You have given her nothing. She is allowed to say what she wishes to say.
MRS NINELA: The hands were blown so that the fingerprints could not be available. He couldn't be identified and the face and the ID. and some of his clothing were not there but because God is great there is nothing hidden that will never be exposed by God in His own private ways. Today we know that he was killed and we know the killers, though we don't know all of them, because there are some facts that are hidden here.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all, Ms Gabriel?
MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, do you have anything else?
CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?
MRS NINELA: I'm trying to think.
CHAIRPERSON: Take your time.
MRS NINELA: What I think is, if the law could take the lawful steps, the law must take its steps lawfully to the killers and if there was a way, I wish they could tell more truth, not the lies they have been telling.
CHAIRPERSON: They have told you the truth that they've killed your son. That's the ultimate truth, isn't it?
MRS NINELA: Is it true for them to say that when they got him he had a limpet mine?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we've dealt with that part of the evidence.
MRS NINELA: But is it true?
CHAIRPERSON: There has been some evidence that there was no limpet mine on him.
MRS NINELA: But is it true?
CHAIRPERSON: That is, the Committee will decide that when it's heard all the evidence.
MS GABRIEL: Some say that there was and some say that there wasn't, they will decide that.
MRS NINELA: Is it true that his hands were put at the back of his head? Is that true? Most unfortunately they did all what they did and thought to hide the body away but because God is there they didn't know that we will finally come across the remains of his body. If the hands were at his back of the head, they would be there, we would find some fingers of the hands, still there. The hands were blown off. They were in front with the face.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we must try and concentrate on the essentials. Try and avoid repeating what has been said. I understand you agony and your pain, but we have to try and hear this application in accordance with the law as we understand it. Now, I don't want to stop you, but I would like to appeal to you not to repeat the same points in a different way.
MRS NINELA: If you could be me you'd be bursting in tears now. I'm trying to hold them back.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand.
MRS NINELA: Nothing is coming to my mind.
MS GABRIEL: Mr Chairman, that is the end of Mrs Ninela's evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Gabriel, the Committee is of the view that questioning of the mother of the deceased by the applicants, if there is going to be any, will take place tomorrow morning. Will she be available?
MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, will you be here tomorrow?
Yes, she will be available.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser I think because of the hour of the day, it might be appropriate not to start at this stage for various reasons.
MR VISSER: Just so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you likely to call other evidence Ms Gabriel?
MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair the adjournment will give me an opportunity to reassess our situation. We had initially planned to call a fairly large number of witnesses. This is something I would need to take instructions from the family.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well and we will adjourn now and resume at half past nine tomorrow morning. Will you convey that to those that you wish to call, that we will commence at half past nine tomorrow morning? The Committee will adjourn.
MS GABRIEL: Thank you Mr Chair.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
