Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: This morning we will complete the hearing of the Dion Cele application because one of the applicants, unfortunately, was not available when all the evidence was led on behalf of the other applicants. Mr Labuschagne, is he here to give evidence?

MR DU PLESSIS ADDRESSES: Thank you Chairperson, may I just place myself on record? It's Roelof du Plessis of the Pretoria Bar on instructions of Strydom Britz Attorneys, I act on behalf of Mr Labuschagne. Before I call Mr Labuschagne, I just want to place a few facts on record, for purposes of the record and just to make things clear. Our client, Mr Labuschagne, in his negotiations with the South African Police Services and the State Attorney, he requested the services of an attorney and counsel to represent him at this hearing. That request was turned down notwithstanding the fact that there is an existing agreement with the State Attorney and the South African Police Service in that regard. It seems to us and I'm making this statement on behalf of Mr Labuschagne, that there is currently a discriminatory practice

in respect of the provision of legal services to certain applicants. Some applicants are provided with the services of an attorney and an advocate and some are not in the same hearings. We believe that that is discriminatory and we believe that that is also unconstitutional and I want to place that on record.

The position was that Mr Labuschagne indicated that he will not accept the situation as such and that he will then hold his amnesty application over until such time as he has been afforded the right to be represented by an attorney and counsel. May I say that the practice in South Africa, as you well know, has been that counsel usually appears only with the assistance of an attorney and this matter and the magnitude of these kind of matters is such that I do not believe that it can be dealt with in any other way. Mr Labuschagne was thereupon was not represented by either Mr Britz or myself last week during the hearing but we have decided in the spirit of this whole process that Mr Britz and I will, to assist the Committee and to safeguard against a possible later hearing of Mr Labuschagne's application, that we will assist the Committee without the situation in respect of representation of Mr Labuschagne having been sorted out and that is why we are here and I place that on record, Chairperson, we are here to assist you and to assist the process and we do not want to make the process more difficult. It just seems to us that the attitude of the Police Service and the State Attorney in this instance has really

prolonged this matter and has caused further time delays instead of streamlining the process. We do not believe that it is to the advantage of justice and to the process that it should be dealt with this way and lastly I want to say that Mr Labuschagne obviously reserves all his rights pertaining to this application, pertaining to the process and pertaining to the fact that he was not represented last week in the way that he should have been represented and that the fact that we are here is no waiver of his rights or any concession in any regard in respect of that.

May I call Mr Labuschagne?

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.

F LABUSCHAGNE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed?

EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, I'll lead the evidence in Afrikaans.

Mr Labuschagne, you are currently in the Police Service, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you were in the police service since when?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Since 1976.

MR DU PLESSIS: You have your amnesty application before you?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And your amnesty application commences in the bundle before you, this is the bundle with regard to the application of Dion Cele and it commences on page 116?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you set out your background, your career, your political background and your political motivation from page 116 up to page 152, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm the correctness thereof?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Mr Labuschagne, last week you attended these proceedings when you had heard the evidence of all your fellow applicants?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you have heard the evidence of all your fellow applicants?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you heard evidence insofar as evidence was offered with regard to the general background of the struggle and the political motivation with which the security branch acted during those years, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: There are just a few aspects which I would like to put questions to you about. Do you confirm these pages as correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And the evidence that you had heard last week, do you confirm it as correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And therefore it is correct to say that the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch closely worked with the Natal Security Branch?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is so.

MR DU PLESSIS: And it was not strange for you to receive instructions from the people from the Natal Security Branch?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No it was not.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Labuschagne, the acts for which you apply for amnesty appears on page 152, do you confirm that?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And on page 153 you go to the nature and particulars of the incident, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Very well, I shall not ask you to verbally place the evidence before the Committee because it appears in your application. There are certain aspects which I want to put to you. Page 153, do you contents of that page?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And do you especially confirm Mr Cele's relationship with the Natal machinery?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And was he an important person in that machinery?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes he was.

MR DU PLESSIS: And was it your view that the planned action against him insofar as you know the action would have results?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Who approached you to become involved with the operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was Col Taylor from Durban from the security branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: And then on page 154 of the bundle you give a list of the names of people who were involved there. Is there anything that you would like to rectify there with regard to the involvement of Sam du Preez that he had been implicated in this matter and before we continue to the further particulars of the incident, you have heard the evidence of the other applicants with regard to the incident itself and the factual version thereof, do you confirm that you agree with the evidence there?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And specifically with the evidence of Mr Verwey?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And on page 154 do you confirm the correctness of the last two paragraphs on that page?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: May we just pause there for a moment? Was there any reconnaissance done before you became involved in the operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And who was involved with the reconnaissance?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: As far as I know at that stage it was Capt Botha and Capt Vorster.

MR DU PLESSIS: And it was reconnaissance trip in Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: What was the purpose thereof?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: The purpose was to, amongst others, to become familiar with the environment and vicinity where Dion Cele would be met.

MR DU PLESSIS: And when you executed the operation how many vehicles were used?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Three vehicles were involved.

MR DU PLESSIS: And were was all - you don't have to explain to us who was in each vehicle, it has already been put before the Committee, who was all with the operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was for the purposes of inside Swaziland, it was Col Botha, Col Vorster, W/O Wasserman, W/O Verwey, myself and an informer.

MR DU PLESSIS: And were they all in Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct yes, although the informer was met in Swaziland.

MR DU PLESSIS: He was already in Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And the informer caused Cele to be called to the kombi?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And he climbed inside?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you say you went to a before agreed point, is this on a remote road?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: It's not the normal highway which you crossed the border back to the R.S.A.?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: And one of the primary reasons why Mr Verwey and you went along was because you knew the area there?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, it was part of the area which we worked in.

MR DU PLESSIS: Very well and what was the impression that you had, what was the purpose of the operation, why did Mr Cele have to be abducted?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I was told or the impression that I had that it would be a recruitment action.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was there information that it would be possible to recruit Mr Cele?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes there was information to that effect.

MR DU PLESSIS: So would refer to the recruitment as an informer?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you have any idea or any indication during the whole operation when it took place that Mr Cele was to be eliminated?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, I did not.

MR DU PLESSIS: And did the idea come about with you?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you don't know what happened afterwards?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm page 156 and further the political motive with which you acted up to page 165?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And another further question which I want to put to you, when did you hear that Mr Cele was eliminated?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was much later, I cannot recall a specific date.

MR DU PLESSIS: And were you surprised?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: And page 166, there is a piece which you embodied in your application with regard to reconciliation. You do not have to read it, do you confirm it as correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And just convey your current opinion and feeling in which you find yourself in currently and your view of the new South Africa and of the Truth and Reconciliation procedure?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Plessis, if I may interpose for one moment? Do you not think it is important that your client's current opinion be put to the persons here?

MR DU PLESSIS: I should have perhaps done that.

Mr Labuschagne, would you please read what you say there on page 166?

MR LABUSCHAGNE

"I believed that what I had done was in the interest of the Republic and the people. I am not sure what is happening today and I do not feel happy and I believe the family of people had suffered and the loss of lives, I hope that this application will lead to reconciliation and comprehension amongst the people. Although it is not for me to decide who is correct or wrong but as a citizen of the new South African, the truth of the past must come out and this is applicable to all the former security forces as well as members of the then liberation movement."

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

What is your present status in the South African Police Force?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I am a superintendent in the South African Police attached to Crime Intelligence Service.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you heard of or had you met Dion Cele before this incident when you were asked by Taylor to assist?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No but I knew of him but I never met him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know the informer?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No I didn't know him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was the real reason why you should have been asked by Taylor to assist in this matter, is it just because you came from the Eastern Transvaal and you knew the area well or were there other reasons?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I think insofar as it is applicable to this incident, it is because of the fact that this was our area which we worked and we knew the area well.

CHAIRPERSON: What precisely did you do apart from merely accompanying them on that occasion, what did you do?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Apart from us accompanying them we showed them the roads or the small paths which we crossed the border illegally with later.

CHAIRPERSON: On the first occasion when this reconnaissance was done you were with them?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, I was not present. I heard the following day that they had already had been in Swaziland to do some reconnaissance.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on the day of the occurrence when you were with them did you actually go into Swaziland yourself?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you go via one of these secret ...(intervention)

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, we crossed the border legally, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you exit from Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was across the border fence in other words we returned illegally across the border fence.

CHAIRPERSON: On the return journey on that day did you have any dealings with Dion Cele?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any dealings with the informer?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at all when there was any discussion of your colleagues with the informer before this incident about Dion Cele?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, I was not present Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely what are you applying for amnesty for?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: The fact that Dion Cele had been abducted.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he abducted and brought in the vehicle which you were in?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, he was never in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: So how were you involved in the actual abduction?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: The fact that we accompanied the people and we showed them how to cross the border illegally, I feel I was part of the abduction and it was also not normal.

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps if I may just take up from where you left off?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: With the abduction itself were you told that you would possibly play an active role, were you ready to step into or similar?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, we were just there if I could say for a type of backup and because we knew how things worked in Swaziland and how to get back to the border.

ADV BOSMAN: What was your rank at that time?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I was a sergeant.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any cross-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Just on question on one aspect Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Mr Labuschagne, I just want to clarify something, you might have covered it in your evidence but I might not have gotten a clear picture. You say when you were approached by Mr Taylor to assist in them abducting Mr Dion Cele, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct yes.

MS THABETHE: Did he give you any details of why the abduction had to take place and who was going to be abducted?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes he said it would be Dion Cele and he also said but I do not want to say according to research but according to their opinion he was to be recruited as an informer.

MS THABETHE: And you were willing to associate yourself with that abduction, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I trust you have no questions to put to this witness?

MR VISSER: I do have one however Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised to hear that.

MR VISSER: Well you'll see very briefly what the matter is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do proceed Mr Visser.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Page 154 you confirmed, Mr Labuschagne, except that you had rectified that Mr Sam du Preez was not there and you were mistaken there but according to the evidence of Wasserman, Du Preez and Vorster, Sergeant Brooks was also there from Pietermaritzburg who accompanied you?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes that is so, I just omitted to say that.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, may I please be allowed to ask one more question I did not ask?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please do.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

Mr Labuschagne, when did the abduction of Dion Cele occur?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was in 1988 round about July.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chair, may I perhaps in re-examination be - thank you Chairperson.

Mr Labuschagne, just one or two questions flowing from the questions. You did not have any objection against the abduction, you associated with it and you agreed with it and you had the intention to participate therein?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And your intention there was the same as the other persons who were involved with you in this operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you were also involved with the planning of the operation insofar as regard to Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you were asked for what you applied for amnesty, you applied for conspiracy as well?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused from further attendance. Counsel and attorney who have taken the trouble of coming down despite the difficulties that were in their way, I must say that your presence here, your assistance and co-operation is appreciated by this Committee. Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, may we be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Chairperson sorry, before you excuse them?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: I had indicated to you earlier on that I've got a statement from Mrs Celeste Morrison. I have not had an opportunity to speak to her and there are a few points that are contrary to the evidence that was led in this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: By this witness?

MS THABETHE: No, not necessarily with this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MS THABETHE: Yes, so I just want to put it on record that we might have to call her. I've made my own opinion that it's not relevant but I would like to speak to her nevertheless.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't spoken yet to her?

MS THABETHE: No, I haven't.

CHAIRPERSON: When is that going to happen?

MS THABETHE: Our investigator has gone to fetch her, she'll be here any time. If I can be given maybe an opportunity to phone the investigator and find out exactly where they are, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I be allowed to enter this discussion with your leave? Chairperson, we were given a statement, a written statement of this lady.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't place it on record, don't place any comments on record.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, well I was going to submit to you Chairperson, that there's no point in waiting for this lady to come and give evidence because of what the statement says because it takes the matter no further at all and you can conclude this incident in our respectful submission in spite of the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't studied the statement.

MR VISSER: Well may I suggest that my learned friend gives you the statement so that you can look at it?

CHAIRPERSON: We have been given the statement as we walked in this morning. We haven't had the chance to evaluate it's contents.

MR VISSER: It's not the typewritten one, it's the one in manuscript, Chairperson, it's just one page.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: And really, to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're expressing an opinion that it has no impact on the application?

MR VISSER: Absolutely not, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, whether she gives evidence or not?

MR VISSER: It's going to make no difference to whether you are going to consider either refusing or granting amnesty Chairperson, really I believe that it's going to be a waste of time if the matter has to stand down to wait for her.

CHAIRPERSON: I gave an undertaking to Mr Britz that as soon as his client's evidence was heard he would be excused and considering that they've come down at their own expense and their time is valuable to them, Mr Britz you and your counsel and your client if the client wishes to leave, you are excused from further attendance.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, we appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a decision on this aspect of whether this lady should be called to give evidence or not when the time comes. In the meanwhile we will proceed with the other matters in which we were engaged.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I must just make my position clear, the only reason why I mentioned it now was because I thought that my learned friend Mr Du Plessis and Mr Britz would be detained to wait for the lady to come and that was the only reason why I mentioned it. But once they've now been excused of course we don't mind waiting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Somebody has taken the trouble of alerting the TRC, calling the TRC and has taken the trouble of making a statement. We haven't had a chance to consider this statement. The leader of evidence does not know the person, she's only going to have a chance of seeing this person and then evaluate whether there's any point in calling her or not but until then this matter will remain and we will come to it if necessary when it's convenient to do so.

MR VISSER: There's absolutely no problem with that from our point of view Chairperson, as I said before it was just that I thought that Britz and Du Plessis might have to be detained for this and that's why I mentioned it, for no other reason at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now what is your further interest in this matter?

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Chairperson, I was going to ask if I may be excused. I thought you were going to adjourn before the Quarry Road Incident proceeds but I have no interest in the Quarry Road and if I may also be excused, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you are.

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now may we proceed with the Quarry Road incident, is Mr Webster here?

MS THABETHE: He is not here, Chairperson. We will need to telephone him because he is right in Smith Street, so can I ask for a ten minute adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, ten minutes to phone him. Will it take ten minutes to be here?

MS THABETHE: Well I'll find out as soon as I've spoken to him. Shamanaz is going to call him right now.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems that this is one of these other unavoidable hiccups. We are going to adjourn until as soon as you are ready to call us.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS