Amnesty Hearings

BASIL FANI MSIBI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Msibi, how old are you?

MR MSIBI: I'm 36.

MS MOHAMED: Where do you reside?

MR MSIBI: Sunnyside, Pretoria.

MS MOHAMED: Now Mr Msibi, you are applying for amnesty for incidents which occurred in Newcastle in 1986 and particularly for the purposes of this hearing you are applying for the explosion at the Newcastle Court and the explosion at Game Centre, is that correct?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Now isn't it also correct that you had previously applied for and was granted amnesty for the attack on the Osizweni Police Station and Glencoe Railway Station?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Now isn't it also correct that you were never arrested or convicted for your role in ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Ms Mohammed, we're going to just stop you for two seconds. Won't you just change your microphone? It's affecting the recording and it will take two seconds literally.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: Oh yes, that's much, much better.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you. Now Mr Msibi, you were never arrested or convicted for these incidents, is that correct?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Now look at this hand drawn statement that's before you, it's a three page statement that you have signed. Chairperson, I'm aware that copies have been made available. I think this would be Exhibit B.

Now Mr Msibi, isn't it correct that this is the same statement that was handed in at your previous hearing and apart from the date being changed on the last page no other substantive alterations have been made to the statement?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Or any alterations have been the additions, haven't they, the fact that evidence was led and amnesty was granted?

MS MOHAMED: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you.

Now Mr Msibi, can you briefly tell the Committee what was your role in the Northern Natal area at that time? That's around 1986?

MR MSIBI: Around the period in 1986, actually I was from my training and Angola and other countries outside Africa. I came back to Zambia where I was briefed about the situation in Northern Natal. I think basically this was in conjunction with what was happening in the Southern Natal as you had spoken at large around the Operation Butterfly. The issue was that all the activities were concentrated only on the southern part of Natal and nothing was happening in Northern Natal in terms of the ANC impacting on the struggles that were waged by the people of Northern Natal. I did a thorough briefing of what was happening in the area knowing also that I'm from the area in Newcastle.

I then went back to the area, Northern Natal area, sent by the Natal machinery command, basically Tami Zulu, to go first to go look at the area, come up with a thorough analysis of the area, politically, military and social economically, which I did. What came out clear in that analysis was that the Northern Natal area itself was divided into two spheres when it comes to political activity. There was an area of Dundee, Glencoe, which was politically active and there was the area which we could have called a core of apartheid activity which was Newcastle where there was actually nothing and everything was done from the Newcastle side to suppress the people of the Northern Natal.

These are the analyses that I gave back to my commanders when I went to Swaziland and I then received a further instruction to go there and start a structure that was going to be all encompassing. I think yesterday's evidence that was given on the Operation Butterfly around the issue of an all encompassing structure. It was in the same brief which was our ...(indistinct) on the matter. And one other thing was that in the Northern Natal at that time, the pilot programme that was run both by the army and the police which was then called the JMCs was fully operational and the people of Northern Natal felt there was nothing that they could do so we were operating on the same level as the JMCs, getting the people on our side and then launching the armed struggle and political struggle at the same time. This was my brief. Then when I went back there, this was what I was supposed to establish. Then definitely it was difficult to get a person to recruit in Newcastle area so I started by recruiting outside the Newcastle area, then coming back inside Newcastle. As the work grew much larger I requested assistance which was sent to me in the person of Bafana Ndaba which didn't last very long because he was killed in a skirmish with the Kwa-Zulu Police at that time. I was then left alone, I had to go back to get another person who was going to help me to re-establish the structures that I was supposed to do. Then I got that help in the person of Thuso Tshika. We then there started to be fully operational, establishing the political contacts through the trade unions which were very active in the area at that time. We then started to interact with the student movements which were very active at that time whilst at the same time ...(intervention)

MS MOHAMED: Sorry, Mr Msibi, if I could just come in here? If you could go slightly slower because it is being interpreted? Thank you.

MR MSIBI: Whilst at the same time we were interacting with those which I could call an above board structures. We were creating much more effective cells. Those were MK cells and Thuso had the responsibility of training those people and in a situation, because it was very evident I think after three months in my presence in the area that I would not last long in the area. So I needed a replacement, a person who would take over immediately should I be arrested, killed or forced to withdraw to Swaziland. So Thuso had to be immediately engaged in the activities and then I began slightly to draw back in terms of recruiting people and interacting with people and Thuso was basically doing that job. So that's when the time we started the actual planning of the operations and the interactions with the trade union movement, the student movement and the civic organisations in the area.

And it should be noted at that time that the policy had succeeded in one way or another to deal with very effective people who were residing at Sigongele in Dundee and Glencoe. So there was a basic need for firstly show the people that MK is there because after the arrest of those leaders of the civic organisation in Dundee and Glencoe, people felt that if these people get arrested then it means there's nothing we can do to this regime so we had to register a point, that this regime is just pulling a leg on you, something is going to happen, continue struggle. We had to send messages to general people to actually believe in what they were participating on, especially in the area of Glencoe, Dundee and Vryheid.

MS MOHAMED: Okay, now I'm going to take you to paragraph 10 of the statement. Will it be correct to say that in seeking to advance this message you then identified certain targets?

MR MSIBI: That is true.

MS MOHAMED: Okay, can you briefly tell us the targets that were identified?

MR MSIBI: May I gather the question? Targets that I'd identified or targets that we managed to act on them because if you say I identified some of them ...(inaudible)

MS MOHAMED: Sorry, my apologies. Targets that you identified and you subsequently acted upon.

MR MSIBI: Okay. That was Osisweni Police Station, the Newcastle Magistrate's Court, the Glencoe Railway Station and the Wimpy at the Game Centre in Newcastle.

MS MOHAMED: Now Mr Msibi, we did state earlier that this hearing is only confined to the explosion at the Newcastle Court and the explosion at the Game Centre at Newcastle, okay?

MR MSIBI: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: So just to concentrate on this right now. When you identified these targets did you engage in any discussions with your superiors at any stage?

MR MSIBI: Definitely yes on the issue of the Newcastle Magistrate's Court. At that time in Newcastle, quite a number of trade union members got arrested and they were being tried in that court. There was a strike that was looming at Iscor, which is a steel industry. There were a number of people who were working Felgate who got arrested that were members of the union. There were a number of people who were arrested who were working at Kabo Chem because of the closure, the possible closure that Kabo Chem was supposed to be closed. Then the trade union was not very of the package that was going to be agreed upon between the company and the workers. So the Special Branch acted swiftly by arresting which they could call leaders in the possible strikes and the go slows that were taking place there.

MS MOHAMED: Okay, thank you. The next target was at Game Centre at Newcastle. Can you tell us why you selected this target?

MR MSIBI: I basically selected this target because I thought that was going to limit the pressure that was on our structure in the sense that all the Special Branch people who were tasked to look after our structure, that is were actually running after me and some of the members were using that Wimpy there. It's a fact because most of them, they were there after the court proceedings. If they had anything at the court, they will just walk to that Wimpy where they had their lunch.

And the second issue is that Wimpy at that time had openly through the Citizen Newspaper, advertised to say they are supporting the Police Force. Police Force members were on patrols and who are doing, they can come in for a cup of tea free and they had preferential treatment in terms of Wimpy. It was an open thing, it was in the newspapers. So also the policemen preferred Wimpy to other restaurants.

MS MOHAMED: Now after you selected these targets, I know you earlier said that you did discuss it with your superiors. Who was your superior at the time?

MR MSIBI: I discussed it directly with Tami Zulu in Swaziland.

MS MOHAMED: Okay now how did this take place, I mean he was in Swaziland and you were in Newcastle and so how did these discussions come about?

MR MSIBI: What happened basically, I was a kind of a person who believed that I had to do things for myself. If there was any ammunition that I had to get I would go to Swaziland personally and ...(indistinct) it, in that way I would spend a week or so getting into discussion with the command structure in Swaziland.

MS MOHAMED: And did they approve your choice of targets?

MR MSIBI: It was approved because I did explain initially when I mentioned Game Centre, Wimpy Bar, it was - they nearly jumped out of their skins because there was the talk of soft targets. Then I explained why that particular Wimpy in Newcastle. It might be different from a Wimpy somewhere else. This one in Newcastle had these connotations which had to look into.

MS MOHAMED: Okay, then on your return to Newcastle how did you act on that approval?

MR MSIBI: I called in Thuso because it was difficult for me to move around at that time. There were posters all over and I called in Thuso, we had a meeting with him. I explained to him thoroughly why the targets, how should it be done and I gave the operational decisions to him as he was the commander of the people who were going to do the operation.

MS MOHAMED: Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Tshika. Do you confirm his evidence insofar as it relates to you?

MR MSIBI: Yes I do.

MS MOHAMED: Now you must also be aware that certain individuals were injured in these explosions?

MR MSIBI: Yes I'm aware.

MS MOHAMED: Do you have any comments to make to them?

MR MSIBI: Basically the comment I want to make is what Mr Tshika has said. I am very sorry whereby civilian population were involved in whatever way, whether they were injured. Fortunately I'm aware that nobody was killed. I'm very sorry to those people and it's very unfortunate that in the kind of war that we were fighting, no matter how we try to avoid such casualties, things of this nature do happen and as I'm saying only to the civilian population, that's where I'm making my apologies.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Msibi, did you derive any personal gain from your involvement in these matters?

MR MSIBI: No.

MS MOHAMED: And would you say that you acted at all stages with the full concurrence of the ANC structures?

MR MSIBI: That's true.

MS MOHAMED: And in your opinion you were doing - sorry, you were engaging in this type of activity in furthering the policies of the ANC?

MR MSIBI: That is true.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MR MOERANE: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

MS CAMBANIS: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions to this witness, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Chairperson, may the witness be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: And the previous witness.

MS MOHAMED: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The two applicants are excused.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED