Amnesty Hearings

ZOKELE BHEKI GWALA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: I recollect you had finished.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Gwala, in your testimony yesterday you mentioned that in 1987 you joined an organisation, what organisation was that that you joined in 1987?

MR GWALA: It was the ANC.

MS MTANGA: But the ANC was still banned at that time. The ANC was not operating inside the country, it was a banned organisation, Mr Gwala.

MR GWALA: At that time the ANC was in existence, although it was not publicised. I gained full membership in about 1988, if I'm not mistaken, but the organisation itself was established in 1987.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did they then give you a membership card?

MR GWALA: If I'm not mistaken it was in 1988 that I received my membership card.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell the Committee how did you come to join the ANC? Who introduced you to the ANC, who recruited you to the ANC?

MR GWALA: At the time the one person who had knowledge about political matters was my uncle, Siazi, who introduced political matters to us. After a while Mr Matthews Meyiwa from Hammarsdale, came to our area to explain what the ANC was about.

CHAIRPERSON: There seems to be some problem with the machine here, my colleague is only hearing the applicant and not the interpreted version. Would the Interpreter please say something now to see if it comes through to my colleague.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja, thank you.

MR HARKOO: Whilst we're there Mr Chairman, sorry, could we just check if the applicant has the right channel here. I'm not sure, he seems to have the same as mine does.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gwala, did I understand your answer to be saying that you were - did I understand you correctly to be saying that you were recruited to the ANC by your uncle Siazi?

MR GWALA: Indeed you heard me correctly, he was one of the persons who recruited us in that area. After a while, as I've already mentioned, ...(indistinct) Meyiwa also came to our area to inform us about the ANC, and even if there were meetings, he is the person who will come to inform us about them.

MS MTANGA: Do you know what the UDF is?

MR GWALA: The UDF was the organisation that first existed and after a while it became the ANC, around 1988.

MS MTANGA: Did you not at any time join the UDF?

MR GWALA: No, I did not join the UDF, I only joined later when it was already the ANC.

MS MTANGA: In your area did you have UDF in existence in 1987?

MR GWALA: In 1987 it was no longer referred to as the UDF, but as the ANC. That is when the political organisation was introduced in the area.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gwala, what you're telling the Committee today is a bit strange, because the ANC did not exist in South Africa in 1987, it was an underground organisation. Only the UDF existed in 1987, in South Africa. What do you say to this?

MR GWALA: What I can state is that I never at any point joined the UDF. I joined at a later stage when it was referred to as the ANC, and that was when there were various persons who came to us to explain what the ANC was all about.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gwala, what is also peculiar about your evidence is that because the ANC was an underground organisation, it is highly unlikely that you would have been introduced to the ANC when you were not even a UDF activist at that time. What do you say to this?

MR GWALA: When we joined the ANC in the area, the people in authority were against the formation of a political organisation, even for those people who joined a political organisation, they did so covertly, it was not publicised. After it was learnt that some people had joined a political organisation, a meeting was called whereby the Induna informed the people that political organisations were not allowed in that area. That caused conflict, and that is when people started, people were attacked at that time.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gwala, in your evidence you mentioned that Tulani Cele was a Commander, what was he a Commander of?

MR GWALA: I knew Tulani from the eMalangeni area, which was an ANC stronghold. In about 1989 or 1990.

MS MTANGA: You said he was a Commander, what was he commanding?

MR GWALA: He was a Commander in the eMalangeni area, an ANC Commander.

MS MTANGA: You also testified that the reason for the Mabasos wanting to attack you, it is because of your involvement in rescuing Tulani Cele's girlfriend from the group that was abducting her. Can you tell the Committee how many people were in this group that was abducting Tulani Cele's girlfriend?

MR GWALA: On the day that I rescued Tulani's girlfriend, I am not certain of the number of people, because most of them fled, so that I was eventually talking to about three people and I spoke directly to the male that was present. It was one male and two women.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how many people were with you?

MR GWALA: There were two of us.

CHAIRPERSON: And the two of you cause everybody else to flee.

MR GWALA: I think they were surprised to see us, because when that woman screamed, called out my name, I went back to them and as I approached, I am not sure whether they believed that I was armed, but they just fled and I just approached the ones that remained and enquired what was going on. The woman explained that they wanted to kill her because she was a comrade's girlfriend.

CHAIRPERSON: So the woman told you that they wanted to commit murder.

MR GWALA: Yes, it was Thombisa Goyama who informed me.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gwala, let's go back to the group that you saw. I want you to estimate, how many people did you see fleeing away from Thombisa? Besides the three that you mentioned, how many people would you estimate were there abducting her?

MR GWALA: I would estimate them to be about four. Some were younger than the rest.

MS MTANGA: You saw four people surrounding Thombisa?

MR GWALA: I only spoke to three who remained, but the ones who fled were about four.

MS MTANGA: So there were seven people in total, in your estimation?

MR GWALA: Yes, I would estimate that number, although due to the length of time that has elapsed, I cannot be certain.

MS MTANGA: Could you tell if these people were IFP or did they have any political affiliation? That is the abductors of Thombisa.

MR GWALA: I am not sure of the person that I spoke to, but from what I heard he resided at One North(?), which was an IFP area.

MS MTANGA: Did you subsequently learn why did these people want to kill - what did Tulani Cele do that would have made his girlfriend a target to these people?

CHAIRPERSON: I understood that they told him ...(indistinct) not subsequently. As I understand his evidence, they wanted to kill her because she was the girlfriend of a comrade. Is that so?

MR GWALA: And also for the reason that she was also a comrade.

MS MTANGA: If these people were after comrades, why didn't they attack you, because you were also a comrade at that time, were you not?

MR GWALA: They would not have attacked me because they did not know me, it was only the woman who knew me. They only came to know of me after the woman had screamed and I approached them. Prior to that they were not aware that I was also a comrade.

MS MTANGA: Amongst the seven people that were there, can you tell the Committee - yesterday you mentioned Jabu Mabaso who was also present and Sibongile Mabaso was amongst the people, can you tell the Committee, the other five, who were they? The other five people that were there, who were they?

MR GWALA: I cannot relate about the people who fled.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you grow up in the same area with them?

MR GWALA: Are you referring to the Mabaso family?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja.

MR GWALA: No, we did not grow up in the same area.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you grow up?

MR GWALA: I was raised in the Njubugazi area, under the ...(indistinct) Street.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And that was not - what was this area, eMalangeni? It was not near eMalangeni, or the same area?

MR GWALA: No, it is a distance away from eMalangeni, because you have to travel by bus or taxi.

MS MTANGA: You also mentioned that besides Tulani's girlfriend, your father-in-law, Mphiwa Gasa, was also killed by the Mabaso family, why was Mr Gasa killed? Can you tell this Committee why did the Mabaso family kill Mr Gasa?

MR GWALA: What I can state is that the KwaZulu Police went to Mr Gasa's home looking for firearms which they did not find. When they arrived there they asked him where was the firearm that he had obtained from me, but he denied any knowledge of such a firearm. He was then assaulted by the police as well as other people who were present. Thereafter the police left promising to return at a later stage. This happened on either a Monday or a Tuesday. On Thursday I received a telephone call at work, informing me that Mr Mphiwa Gasa had been shot and killed.

MS MTANGA: Did you give Mr Gasa a firearm that the police were looking for?

MR GWALA: I'd never given him a firearm.

MS MTANGA: And then how did it come about that you suspected the Mabaso family to be involved in the murder of Mr Gasa?

MR GWALA: What raised the suspicion was what was told to me by the Gasa family, that they had seen some members of the Mabaso family when Mr Gasa was attacked. Moreover, when I met the Mabaso daughters at a certain occasion in town, they stated that I was the one person who was remaining, I was next in line.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you repeat that please.

INTERPRETER: They said that the applicant was next in line.

ADV SIGODI: Who said that to you? Who of the Mabaso daughters told you that, that you were next in line?

MR GWALA: A person like Jabu, she even spat as she was saying this to me.

ADV SIGODI: And who else?

MR GWALA: The lady in a green jersey, I'm not sure of her name.

ADV SIGODI: Is she the one sitting in front?

MR GWALA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sibongile?

MR GWALA: They were quite a large group when I met them.

ADV SIGODI: And what made you to believe that?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that.

ADV SIGODI: What caused you to believe such a threat from two girls?

MR GWALA: I believed them for the reason that Mr Gasa, as well as people like Thombisa Goyama were already killed. It became obvious that I was also going to die.

ADV SIGODI: What had you done to them to believe that such a threat would be carried out? What reason did you have to believe such a threat?

MR GWALA: As I've already explained, I had rescued Tulani's girlfriend on a previous occasion, that was when they developed hatred against me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwala, this so-called rescue that you keep telling us about, as I understand from what you have said this morning, you saw this girl with these people, somebody called you, you walked towards them, most of the men ran away and only one man and two women remained to talk to you. Is that so?

MR GWALA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they said they were going to kill this girl because she was a girlfriend of a comrade and you said: "No, you're not, I'm taking her with me". Is that what happened?

MR GWALA: Yes, that is what happened, because I even took her home.

CHAIRPERSON: No violence?

MR GWALA: There was an altercation between us, but I removed the woman and went away with her.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you armed?

MR GWALA: I was not armed with any weapon, I was just carrying a bag with my personal belongings.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At that stage you were not staying in the same area with them anymore, with the Mabasos?

MR GWALA: I've always resided at the Njubugazi area. During the week I would be at Unit 4 in Hammarsdale, because that's where I worked, and returned home during the weekend. I never resided in the eMalangeni area because I had no relatives there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I understand that. Where did you meet the two girls later, when they threatened to kill you? Where did this meeting take place, at eMalangeni or where?

MR GWALA: I met them at Webber.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At where did you meet them?

MR GWALA: It was at Webber, which was a shopping centre in Hammarsdale.

MS MTANGA: Can I proceed, Chairperson?

Mr Gwala, turn to page 38 of the bundle, paragraph 14, that is the statement of Sibongile Mabaso. The last sentence there she states that:

"Sokhele once mentioned that should anything happen to Mr Gasa, my family would be in trouble."

Did you ever make such a threat to Sibongile about the death of Mr Gasa, before he even died?

MR GWALA: No, I never made a statement, I dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying Sibongile is lying about that threat that you made to her?

MR GWALA: Indeed she's making a terrible mistake.

MS MTANGA: Yesterday in your testimony you were asked to list persons who were involved in the attack of the Mabaso family and you mentioned that there were six of you, you were the sixth person.

MR GWALA: That's correct.

MS MTANGA: You mentioned Siabonga Hlope, Zazima Gwaza, Bongani Magwaza, Doda Gwala, Mangelo Shozi. Who was Vuvana Mlambo?

MR GWALA: I also mentioned him yesterday.

MS MTANGA: You did not count Vuvana Mlambo yesterday. You mention him in your application and in your affidavit, but you didn't mention him yesterday. And if you're saying there were six people, if you add Vuvana Mlambo, then there would have been seven people who went to attack the Mabaso family. Was it six people or seven people who went to attack the Mabaso family, Mr Gwala?

MR GWALA: I think I mention Vuvana.

MS MTANGA: So if you count these people again it was yourself, Siabonga Hlope, Zazima Gwaza, Bongani Magwaza, that's the fourth person, fifthly, Doda Gwala, Mangelo Shozi and Vuvana Mlambo. So you were seven people who went to attack the Mabaso family, not six people as you earlier testified.

MR GWALA: I thought I had counted Vuvana as well.

MS MTANGA: So will I be correct to say that there were seven of you, not six as you testified earlier on? There were seven people who went to attack the Mabaso family, not six people?

MR GWALA: Yes, there were about six or seven of us.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In paragraph 9 on page 11 he mentions five other names and one has been left out, according to what you put now to him, which one should be added here?

MS MTANGA: It's the second, Magwaza, that is Zazi Magwaza.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Zazi Magwaza. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gwala, are you being honest with this Committee when you say that there was a political motive behind the animosity between yourself and the Mabaso family?

MR GWALA: Yes, that is the whole truth.

MS MTANGA: If that is the case, why after killing Thombisa Goyama and Mr Gasa, would you be the only person that they were looking for? Why were they not looking for other comrades?

MR GWALA: They were looking for other comrades, people like Tulani Cele. They were also looking for me for the reason that I was also, I used to visit the eMalangeni area, so they knew me.

MS MTANGA: Were you under the command of Tulani Cele?

MR GWALA: No, he was not my Commander, because he resided in a different area.

MS MTANGA: Who was your Commander?

MR GWALA: Are you referring to my area, or?

MS MTANGA: Yes, in your area. Before you ran to Mr Gwala's house.

MR GWALA: In our area the person who was a Commander was my uncle, Siazi.

MS MTANGA: What happened to Tulani Cele?

MR GWALA: I don't quite understand, are you referring to the period after his arrest?

MS MTANGA: No, I'm referring to - you said the Mabaso family were after you and they were also after Tulani because of your political activities, so I'm asking you what happened to Tulani Cele, did they eventually get to him?

MR GWALA: They did not get him, because he's still alive.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain, we see this family before us now, were any other people involved with them in the attacks lodged against the ANC, or were they the only people attacking the ANC? In that area.

MR GWALA: What I can state is, the only occasions at which I would see other people would be at the Webber shopping centre or in town. Those were IFP members whose names I did not know, and those people also were not known in the eMalangeni area.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who was the IFP leader in that area? If you nominate enemy number one in that area, in the IFP, who was the leader of the IFP?

MR GWALA: I would be lying if I said I knew who was the leader of the IFP in eMalangeni area, because the Mabaso family only went to reside there at a later stage. I do not know who was the leader.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you actually followed the Mabaso family from where they stayed previously and you attacked them in the eMalangeni area where you didn't know actually who the people were staying there?

MR GWALA: When we attacked them they were residing at Ekwandeni area.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you repeat the name of that area please.

INTERPRETER: Ekwandeni.

CHAIRPERSON: So they had moved out, they had moved from the eMalangeni area?

MR GWALA: Yes, they had left the eMalangeni area for Ekwandeni.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have to drive them out of the area, they'd already gone?

MR GWALA: There was a need to follow them, because that area of Ekwandeni was close-by, they could still launch attacks from there.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me, if you had not rescued Thombisa, then the Mabaso family would not have had any reason to want to kill you, is that correct? Nothing would have linked you to the Mabaso family.

MR GWALA: There would have been something that would have linked us, because I had to become aware of the political organisation to which they belonged and we were in conflict with that organisation.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but how would they have known that you belonged to a different political organisation?

MR GWALA: They would have known for the reason that I used to frequent eMalangeni, a place they had had to leave for political differences. And even at that point my membership was not something that I did, or something that was not known.

ADV SIGODI: Ja, but they wouldn't have heard themselves personally - I mean, what position did they have in the IFP, the Mabaso family? What was their position?

MR GWALA: I do not know about their position, I just knew them to be IFP members.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, precisely, that is why I'm saying, according to your own evidence the fact that links you with the Mabaso family, that gives rise to the political reason why they attacked, or why you attacked them, is because you rescued Thombisa, is that not so?

MR GWALA: Please repeat that question.

ADV SIGODI: Alright. If you had not rescued Thombisa, nothing would have linked you to the Mabaso family, is that correct?

MR GWALA: I would say there may have been something else to link with them, because I used to go see Tulani Cele. It just happened that this was the reason that linked me to them at the time.

ADV SIGODI: You're not answering the question. Because you said, according to your own evidence, after you had rescued Thombisa you then met the sisters, the two sisters who started insulting you and one of them spitting, who then threatened you that they were going to kill you. That is why you went to attack them. Because you got the threat that you were going to be killed and the reason why you were going to be killed is because you had rescued Thombisa, according to your own evidence.

MR GWALA: Yes, the evidence that I stated is part of the reason I realised that they were going to attack me.

ADV SIGODI: You went to attack them because you got a threat that they were going to kill you for having rescued Thombisa, is that it?

MR GWALA: I would not say that I attacked them for the reason that they had threatened me. The reason why I decided to attack them was learning that they had killed Thombisa as IFP members, and also for the fact that they also wanted to kill me for my political beliefs. That is why I decided to attack them.

ADV SIGODI: How was Thombisa killed?

MR GWALA: I was not present at the time she was killed, but from what I heard she was abducted from the taxi rank, put into a vehicle and she was killed later on. I heard that her body was discovered the following day at a cemetery.

ADV SIGODI: But you had no proof that the Mabaso family killed her, you relied on hearsay. You relied on hearsay, is that correct?

MR GWALA: It was what was told by the people who had been present when she was kidnapped, because when it took place I was at work.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me, when you got to the family's house, the Mabaso family, who gave the order to shoot?

MR GWALA: I issued the order.

ADV SIGODI: That is correct, because even according to the Judgment on page 63, from line 24, that the evidence of Jabu, she says that

"Before falling down she saw accused number three ..."

you were accused number three, wasn't it?

"... in front of the door"

and she said that:

"She both saw and heard him say shoot"

Actually it's Sibongile who was saying that, who says that she saw you and heard you say "shoot". Now tell me, why did you instruct that the children should be shot, if they were not a target? You are asking for amnesty for murdering the children, aren't you?

MR GWALA: As I mentioned earlier on, we arrived there at night and it was also misty, we did not see that the children had also been shot, it was something we learnt later on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it misty in the house too? Was it misty inside the house? What had the mist to do with the people in the house?

MR GWALA: No, it was not misty inside the hut.

CHAIRPERSON: And you could see there was a man inside the house, you've told us that.

MR GWALA: Yes, it was possible to distinguish between a male and female.

CHAIRPERSON: And a little child, two little children of five, both of whom were shot through the spine. It's possible to distinguish them from adults, isn't it?

MR GWALA: Yes, it would have been possible to distinguish had they been, for instance, directly in front of the door, but if you were at a distance you would not have seen.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you enter the house?

MR GWALA: No, I did not.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who entered the house?

MR GWALA: It was Siabonga Hlope and Bongani Magwaza and Zazi, as well as Vuvana Mlambo. I and Dodwa Gwala and Mr Shozi did not enter the hut, we surrounded the other hut.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now you've been the leader there, why didn't you take the initiative and enter the house, why did you send in other people to do the job?

MR GWALA: For the reason that there were different huts, I went to another which we surrounded, but unfortunately as we approached there were gunshots that were fired and the light was put out inside the hut, so we could not enter.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you first go to the house to find out who was there and whether Fanyana was there? Did you make enquiries?

MR GWALA: No, we did not enquire prior to the attack, but I was certain that Mr Mabaso was at home, because he was not at work on that day, so we only went there at that time when we launched the attack.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see, Mr Hlope says in an affidavit on page 18, paragraph 7

"Sokhele proceeded to the house to investigate who were the occupants. If present and if it was clear for us to get in."

Isn't that correct?

MR GWALA: No, that's not how it happened. We went to the house and waited for a while outside, listening, and we heard that there were noises coming from inside, which made us realise that there were people present and that's when we proceeded.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was the light at that stage still burning?

MR GWALA: Yes, there was a light.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And ...(indistinct - no microphone) says on page 37 ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sibongile says on page 37, paragraph 6

"I was standing on the doorway with my mother, Pagazile Mabaso, when I saw Sokhele coming towards us. He asked for boys from our home and one of them was present. My father, Fanyana Paulus Mabaso, was also not at home."

Is that correct?

MR GWALA: No, I dispute that, I did not say anything, it was not me who spoke.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well who spoke? Who asked this question?

MR GWALA: It was Siabonga.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And did he receive this answer

"Fanyana is not there and the others boys are not there either"

MR GWALA: The response that was received was, who were the people who were enquiring about their father. At that time I was standing next to him, near the door.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, and you heard. What was the answer? Was Fanyana present or wasn't he present, and were the boys there or weren't they there?

MR GWALA: They did not respond to that question, they just asked who was enquiring after Mr Mabaso, and our brothers, no-one amongst them indicated whether the father or the sons were present, but we saw a male at that time inside the hut and that's when we started shooting.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you shot all the people but you didn't shoot this male person, he vanished? You missed him altogether, not even wounding him?

MR GWALA: I would say he either fled or hid inside the hut.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see, you went to kill certain persons, you went to target specific persons and you're not worried whether they're there or not. All the male persons, you're not worried whether they're present at home, you didn't shoot them. You went there to kill whatever you could kill.

MR GWALA: As I've already mentioned, the firing started and I am not certain who was being shot at at that particular time.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now could you explain to us what was your political objective, what did you try to achieve in killing women and children at that house?

MR GWALA: The shooting of the children was not per intention, our targets had been the adults in the house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But it was never the policy of the ANC to wage war against children, isn't that so? Your Commanders never told you to go out and shoot children.

MR GWALA: Yes, it was a mistake that children were shot at.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I want to ask you the question, wasn't the sole purpose for attacking this house, to protect what you thought, at that stage, your own life and it had nothing to do with politics, it had to with protecting yourself?

MR GWALA: No, that is not true, I dispute that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well why did you go there? What was the object? To shoot before they kill you, that was the only reason. To prevent them from killing you. Your uncle told you you should act proactive and kill them before they could kill you.

MR GWALA: The reason why I took the decision to kill them was because I learnt that they belonged to a second political organisation, which explained why they were killing us and why they wanted to kill me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And they'd already moved out of the ANC area at that stage. You didn't go in order to clear a, to gain territory, because they'd moved out already.

MR GWALA: They had left, but the area in which they were at Ekwandeni was close to the ANC stronghold. There were other IFP members residing in that area.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why didn't you kill the other members, the other IFP members?

MR GWALA: The war continued even after our arrest.

ADV SIGODI: Why didn't you call Tulani Cele to assist you in attacking the Mabaso family? Wasn't he the one who was the Commander in that area, the ANC Commander?

MR GWALA: I could not enlist his help for the reason that I was not aware of his shifts at work on that particular day.

ADV SIGODI: Had you planned to go and attack on a particular day, or had you just planned to go and attack when it suited you?

MR GWALA: We did not plan a particular day but the opportunity presented itself on the day that I was free.

ADV SIGODI: But he is the one whose girlfriend had been killed, shouldn't he also have been included in this?

MR GWALA: I did not think that we could approach Mr Cele to take part in this incident because he was still in mourning.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) you didn't involve him because you were not aware of which shift he was working that day. Wasn't that the reason you've given us a moment ago?

MR GWALA: Yes, I did say so.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I've finished with my cross-examination.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: Mr Gwala, how do you feel about the incident now, could you tell the Commission?

MR GWALA: I feel very saddened by this incident, that is why I decided to appear before this Committee to explain the reasons that led to the attack on the Mabaso family. I also wish to extend my apology to them.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR HARKOO: Mr Chairman, if I could ask the indulgence for a short adjournment, the applicant's wishes that I lead the other witnesses. It is my view that I may not take it much further and I would like to have the opportunity of discussing it with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's very close to normal adjournment time, so I think we'll take the ordinary adjournment now and if you'd let us know when you're ready to proceed.

MR HARKOO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment now.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Right, are you ready?

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mr Tulani Cele.

TULANI CELE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: Mr Cele, would you tell the Commission, during 1991, during or about May 1991, where did you live?

MR CELE: I lived at eMalangeni.

MR HARKOO: Were you a member of any political organisation at that time?

MR CELE: I was a member of the UDF.

MR HARKOO: And what was the position that you held?

MR CELE: I was the leader in the area.

MR HARKOO: And do you know the Mabaso family that has been referred to in this hearing?

MR CELE: I know them very well.

MR HARKOO: Could you tell the Commission what is your understanding of the affiliation of the Mabaso family in regard to any organisation that they may have belonged to?

MR CELE: I can explain briefly about the Mabaso family and the political situation in the area. At about 1987, there was not political organisations existing in the eMalangeni area.

MR HARKOO: I see, okay. And what was the position of the UDF, as such?

MR CELE: As I've just explained, people were not that aware of political organisations at the time.

MR HARKOO: Do you know - well how well do you know the Mabaso family?

MR CELE: I would say when they arrived I was already residing in the area.

MR HARKOO: And when they arrived were they friendly with the KwaZulu Police?

MR CELE: Please repeat again.

MR HARKOO: When they arrived, from your understanding of the Mabaso family, were they friendly with the KwaZulu Police? Were they acquainted to them?

MR CELE: The collusion between the Mabaso family and the KwaZulu Police started when my brother Bheki Cele was killed.

MR HARKOO: When was this?

MR CELE: In 1990.

MR HARKOO: And do you know the relationship between the Mabaso family and members of the IFP?

MR CELE: I would like to explain how the Mabaso family got involved in the IFP.

MR HARKOO: Okay, go ahead.

MR CELE: When political movements were established in the eMalangeni area ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: ... when what was established?

INTERPRETER: Political movements.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR CELE: The community elected me as the youth leader in that area.

MR HARKOO: Yes?

MR CELE: A person by the name of Zwakele Nkehle came to came to the area. He was an IFP leader.

MR HARKOO: Yes?

MR CELE: He then ordered the IFP youth to forcibly recruit people into the IFP. The person who was responsible for that recruitment was Moosa Zuma. At that time ...

MR HARKOO: There's something wrong with the mikes, Mr Chairman.

What was Mr Moosa Zuma's relationship with the Mabaso family, could you tell us?

MR CELE: I would rather explain first. The eruption of the violence in the eMalangeni area, that led to the conflict between the UDF and the IFP. When this conflict erupted the Mabaso family remained in that area.

MR HARKOO: Go ahead.

MR CELE: At that time a constitution was adopted in the eMalangeni area and that was to the effect that any household that does not support the IFP, should attend ANC meetings, so that it would become obvious who was for the IFP and who was for the ANC.

Sibongile Mabaso then attended UDF meetings, as well as Sibaningi and Booi Mabaso. But I do not see him around here. After a while the community brought complaints to me to the effect that Moosa Zuma was regularly seen at the Mabaso household.

MR HARKOO: Are you referring to the Mabaso household?

MR CELE: As well as a certain person by the surname of Ndebele. I do not recall his first name.

MR HARKOO: Who is Ndebele?

MR CELE: I don't recall his first name.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it Jabulani?

MR CELE: Yes, it was.

On hearing about this, I was well aware that these two persons were IFP members. Moreover, Moosa Zuma's brother was the KwaZulu Police member at Mpumalanga police station.

MR HARKOO: Yes.

MR CELE: Thereafter there developed a conflict between the Mabaso family and the community of eMalangeni. After a while my home was attacked. That is where Bheki Nkosi, Cele, who was my brother, as well as Mo Ngcobo, who was my cousin, were killed.

On the day of the attack I was on my way from work, I think it was about twelve midnight on a Friday. The person who shot my brother and my cousin was Zwane and he was with Moosa Zuma. For the reason that there was a moonlight so it was quite possible to see, I also noticed Jabulani Ndebele present.

I thereafter laid a charge with the KwaZulu Police. When I went to the police station I was informed by the police that they would not handle my case, instead I should take it to the South African Police at Webber. They would only deal with me if I returned a letter from the South African Police, instructing them to open that case.

When I went to the South African Police I met two investigators, a Mr Mkhize and Mbadjwa and I laid the charge with them. That was on a Friday. On a Saturday morning two black police officers in the company of a white officer, came to my home.

MR HARKOO: Mr Cele, I just want to restrict the evidence here, before we get rapped on the knuckles by the Chairperson. We're going a bit off the tandem. We are dealing with the amnesty application of the applicant, so I would like you to restrict your evidence to issues that would relate, or would help us in the application of the applicant.

Now it was the evidence of the applicant in this case, that your girlfriend was in fact killed, do you know the circumstances, the persons responsible for that? Could you tell us briefly.

MR CELE: About the death of Thombisa, I heard from my comrades in Mpumalanga, one of them was Mdu Tiyane, that Thombisa had been abducted from Webber. He met me at Webber himself and he informed me that unknown boys had kidnapped her, but he suspected that they belonged to the IFP, because those boys were in the company of their mothers or daughters. He said he saw Sibongile Mabaso, as well as Tuli Zuma.

MR HARKOO: Yes.

MR CELE: On hearing that I then left and headed home. When I arrived home I received the full report that Thombisa had been kidnapped by Sibongile Mabaso and the others. In fact, they were asking her why she was still involved with me, because if she continues being involved with me, she was going to be killed.

About a week lapsed, it was on the 20th of July ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, 20th of July 1900-and?

MR CELE: 1990.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, what happened on that day?

MR CELE: I returned from work and went to my sister's house. On my arrival she asked me to go to Pietermaritzburg. There was a certain boy who was undergoing initiation to become a Sangoma, who was staying with her.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you restrict yourself to what happened to your girlfriend and what was the role the applicant played at that stage. We don't want to know about the Sangoma now, and all that happened in Pietermaritzburg.

MR CELE: On the 20th of July 1990, Thombisa was abducted from an area known as Webber, in Hammarsdale. They kidnapped her and they left with her on that Friday. I learnt of that kidnapping on my arrival from Pietermaritzburg, and I was informed that she had been kidnapped by three women and four boys. I enquired if they knew any of those persons, because she could not be found anywhere. I was informed that Sibongile Mabaso and Jabulani Ndebele, as well as Tuli Zuma had been present, but the rest were not known, but they were from One North area.

MR HARKOO: And what happened to Thombisa after that?

MR CELE: I searched for her the whole night on that Friday, going to police stations as well as to the clinic in Unit 2, where I did not find her. The following morning, which was a Saturday, it was still very early, at about 7a.m., I came across three women who informed me that they had discovered a body of a woman at the cemetery and they suggested that I go check if it was not her.

MR HARKOO: You mean at the mortuary?

MR CELE: At the cemetery.

MR HARKOO: Okay.

MR CELE: I went there. On my arrival I did see a body of a woman lying there. At that time I was very upset. Her head had been hacked by what looked like an axe and she had many stab wounds on her body.

MR HARKOO: Okay, you've heard the evidence of the applicant earlier where he related an incident some time, of an attempted kidnapping of Thombisa. Were you made aware of that incident? Did Thombisa report that to you at all?

MR CELE: As I explained before, Thombisa was kidnapped before at Webber and Mr Gwala had come to her assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before was that?

MR CELE: It did not take very long, I think about a week elapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you report this to the police, this kidnapping?

MR CELE: To be honest, it was not easy to report such matters to the police, because they were biased.

CHAIRPERSON: From that I take it you did not report it to the police?

MR CELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This Mr Gwala, did he bring her home or what?

MR CELE: I heard that he took her to the taxi rank, where she would have caught a taxi home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know him?

MR CELE: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Mr Gwala?

MR CELE: I did not know him previously, but I started knowing him after the death of Thombisa.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not know him at all before the death of Thombisa?

MR CELE: Yes, I just heard of him. I knew that he had a girlfriend in our area, Ellie Gasa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HARKOO: Now I want to refer you to page 10 of the bundle, this is an affidavit made by - I want to refer you to the affidavit of Sibongile - oh, it doesn't matter. It's been put somewhere in the papers that Sibongile Mabaso was also - sorry, page 37, paragraph 3, where Sibongile Mabaso states that

"My entire family, including myself, were ANC members."

Can you comment on that?

MR CELE: Briefly I will state that as I explained earlier, they pretended to be ANC members when IFP members left the area. When Thombisa was kidnapped and killed, the following day the Mabaso household was vacant. That gave me the impression that there was a reason, there was something puzzling about the fact that they leave after the kidnapping of Thombisa, whereas some of the family members from that very same household had been seen when Thombisa was kidnapped.

It became clear that they were not true UDF members, they had just been using the organisation to protect themselves. Because there was conflict between these two organisations and we wanted our area to become a UDF stronghold and chase everybody else out of that area.

MR HARKOO: I also want to refer you now to page 51 of the papers, this is an affidavit that you've submitted in support of your appeal after the conviction. Now on paragraph 7.4.1 and sub-paragraph (i), you mentioned in your papers - well in 7.4.1 it states that

"She (meaning your legal representative at the time of your criminal action) did not place before the Court, certain of the information I had given her. Such as, that I had never met the other accused before being arrested and the other accused ...(indistinct) is the applicant."

Can you give an explanation as to why you said that in those papers at that stage?

MR CELE: Please repeat that.

MR HARKOO: You mentioned just now when you were asked by the Chairperson, that you had not known the applicant prior to the abduction of Thombisa. In your affidavit in support of your appeal in the criminal action, you've mentioned that you've informed your legal representative, which she did not put before the Court, that

"I had never met the other accused before being arrested."

Do you understand the question?

MR CELE: Yes, that is what a I stated. I can state the reasons why I said so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you just tell us, is that the truth or not the truth? What you've stated here, that you've never met them.

MR CELE: It was the truth but there were certain conditions under which I stated so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay, continue, I don't know now whether he's met them before or he didn't meet them before, what he wants to explain. I don't know.

MR HARKOO: Could you very briefly explain that to us, Mr Cele.

MR CELE: The other co-accused, Mr Mabaso, I had never met before. With regards to Mr Gwala, I mentioned that in court as a defence and I said so because the Mabaso family had said that they had identified me at the scene. And prior to Thombisa being kidnapped, Mr Gwala and I had not - I had not known Mr Gwala before Thombisa was kidnapped. However, when I appeared in court, I had already met him, but I could not admit that in court, because that would place me at the scene of the crime. All of us were pleading not guilty in court, and that is why I stated that I did not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why in saying that you had met him before, why would that place you at the scene of the crime? Did you meet him at the scene of the crime? Is that what you are now telling us?

MR CELE: No, I did not meet him, I was not even aware that they were going to commit such a crime.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I don't understand your answer at all. You could have met this man in dozens of places, it should have nothing whatsoever to do with this crime. You don't seem to want to tell us where you met him or how you knew him.

MR CELE: I knew Mr Gwala from Lee Gasa, who resided near my home.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Cele, who is lying, Mr Gwala or you? One of you are lying, which one, you or him?

MR CELE: From what I have stated ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: No, no, answer my question. Who is lying, Mr Gwala or you? And I'll tell you why just now. Are you telling the truth?

MR CELE: What are you referring to?

MR PANDAY: Is your evidence the truth here today?

MR CELE: Yes, it is the truth.

MR PANDAY: You see, Mr Gwala's evidence from yesterday has been that he always knew you, he used to come and visit you before Thombisa was kidnapped. So he must be lying, based on your evidence.

MR CELE: From what I've mentioned here and also what I mentioned in my statement, it is the truth that I knew him at the time of Thombisa's kidnapping.

MR PANDAY: Yes. So if Mr Gwala ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... that you did know him at the time of Thombisa's kidnapping, is that what you said? I didn't hear you clearly. Was that what he said?

INTERPRETER: He said he knew him at the time of her kidnapping.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you know him before the kidnapping or did you come to know him at the time of the kidnapping?

MR CELE: "Impela".

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I don't understand what you're answering if you're saying "impela", because I'm asking you two questions; whether you knew him before ...(intervention)

MR CELE: I knew him at the time that she was kidnapped on the first instance.

MR PANDAY: Now before she was kidnapped did Mr Gwala visit you?

MR CELE: He once - or rather, he came twice to my home after the kidnapping of Thombisa.

MR PANDAY: My question is simple Mr Cele, before the kidnapping, did Mr Gwala visit you at any time? Before, not after - before.

MR CELE: I do not recall that.

MR PANDAY: Right. So Mr Gwala would be lying if he says that he used to visit you? Isn't that simple deduction?

MR CELE: I do not recall.

MR HARKOO: I think, Mr Chairperson, the evidence of Mr Gwala was that he did visit Mr Cele, but he did not say precisely when, whether it was before or after the kidnapping.

MR PANDAY: With all due respect, I understood his evidence sometime that he knew Mr Cele, he used to visit Mr Cele, who was his friend. That was how his evidence was related from the beginning. And people knew that he and Mr Cele were comrades, or ...

MR HARKOO: Yes, but he didn't say when they became friends, whether it was before or after the kidnapping.

MR PANDAY: Sorry Mr Chairman, if I can also refer you to page 10 of the bundle of documents, on paragraph 5

"Before this particular attack, the Mabaso clan had killed a girlfriend of my friend, Vuyama."

And also, when the applicant was giving his evidence he would always refer to going to see the best friend. That was whilst she was living as well.

MR HARKOO: Yes, we do not dispute that Mr Chairperson, but it doesn't state when they became friends.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well they could argue they became friends after the ... well, they were both arrested for this crime, I believe, so they might have become friends in jail. Or after the arrest. I realise now that he was also arrested for the same offence.

When did you first meet him and where did you meet him? At a meeting of the UDF, or how did you come to know him?

MR CELE: As I mentioned earlier, I first knew of Mr Gwala from his girlfriend who was residing near my home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, and did he often visit his girlfriend there before the abduction of your girlfriend?

MR CELE: I will say yes, he used to visit his girlfriend, but I did not know him personally, I just heard of him at that point.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well when did you meet him for the first time, set your eyes on him?

MR CELE: When my girlfriend was kidnapped at Webber.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And how long after your girlfriend was kidnapped?

MR CELE: It was shortly after that incident, I think it was after a few weeks thereafter, when he came to report to me how he had come to assist my girlfriend and ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: If it was a few weeks thereafter, then it was a few weeks after she had been killed? So you've never set eyes on him before she was killed, because she was killed within a week after the first abduction.

MR CELE: If I'm not mistaken I think it was on a weekend that he arrived at home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but a weekend, there's 52 weekends in a year, which weekend? Before the killing or after the killing?

MR CELE: She was still alive at the time. He just came to report to me about the time he had assisted her.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said he came to you a few weeks after the kidnapping. Do you remember, a minute or two ago you told us that.

MR CELE: I made a mistake there, because it did not take long. When he came to my home, Thombisa was still alive.

MR PANDAY: Mr Cele, I'm going to refer you to page 5, that is the fourth paragraph, and I believe this to be a letter that was sent by Mr Sokhele Bheki Gwala, to the Appeal Board, Truth and Reconciliation. Now this is what this letter contains

"The offences in question were committed due to the following grounds; Sokhele Gwala usually paid Tulani Cele a visit where Cele was residing in a place called eMalangeni. Which area was an ANC member (where ANC members were staying)"

Did he usually pay you visits?

MR CELE: He used to come to the area but he would normally go to his in-laws.

MR PANDAY: So he'll be lying in this paragraph, that he usually paid you visits?

MR CELE: Maybe he stated so because he was by that time known in the eMalangeni area.

MR PANDAY: Did you know him to be a leader of the ANC in his area?

MR CELE: Yes, I had heard that, because it was something I had enquired from his girlfriend.

MR PANDAY: When did you enquire from his girlfriend about him?

MR CELE: That was when his girlfriend told me about the fact that Mr Gwala had assisted my girlfriend in that kidnapping incident and as we continued talking I asked her to what organisation did Mr Gwala belong and she informed that he was an ANC member.

MR PANDAY: Now the Mabaso family, you mentioned in your evidence that they know you well, or you know them well, is that correct?

MR CELE: That is true.

MR PANDAY: Do you think they'll make a mistake if they needed to identify you?

MR CELE: They may well make a mistake, because they did.

MR PANDAY: They did. Jabu says she saw you. Does Jabu know you well?

MR CELE: As I've explained before, they know me as well as they know themselves.

MR PANDAY: As well as they know themselves.

MR CELE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: So they won't make a mistake if they see your face? If you see your face in the mirror, you'll forget your face.

MR CELE: No.

MR PANDAY: No, you won't. Do you think if Jabu's sees her face in the mirror, she'll forget her face? She knows her face well, hey.

MR CELE: No, she would not forget herself.

MR PANDAY: So she won't make a mistake with your face, because you said they know you as well as they know their faces. Right, let's move on Mr Cele.

MR CELE: They made a terrible mistake and I can motivate why I say so.

MR PANDAY: At the moment I'll ask the questions and then we'll get to your motivations. Right. Now in 1990, were you still a member of the UDF?

MR CELE: I first came to know of the UDF in 1987, in Mpumalanga.

MR PANDAY: When did you join the UDF?

MR CELE: In 1987, that is when I whilst I was at my home in Mpumalanga.

MR PANDAY: Now you remember the papers you signed for your appeal?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you give us the page.

MR PANDAY: Page 50.

I will refer you to page 50, paragraph 4. In paragraph 4 you say in 1989 you affiliated yourself with the UDF. That's your affidavit.

MR CELE: That is true with regards to eMalangeni area.

MR PANDAY: Why, did you change your areas?

MR CELE: The transport facilities were not well organised in eMalangeni, previously I used to live in Mpumalanga, Unit 3, but I would spend most of my time in Mpumalanga, Unit 3, which was also my home, but I would go to eMalangeni occasionally.

MR PANDAY: What I want to know is when you became the leader of the eMalangeni area, in what year did you become the leader?

MR CELE: If I'm not mistaken I became a leader in 1990.

MR PANDAY: Now the Kwamandeni(sic) area, isn't it close to the eMalangeni area, they're neighbours?

MR CELE: It is not very far. There is an area called Unit 6, that divides eMalangeni and Ekwandeni.

MR PANDAY: Now isn't the Ekwandeni area also an ANC area?

MR CELE: From what I know there are ANC members residing there, but I would not call it an ANC stronghold because most of the people who reside there were not raised in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you live in eMalangeni the whole time?

MR CELE: When the violence erupted in eMalangeni I was staying there by that time and I resided there so that I become aware or I know exactly what is going on at all times.

CHAIRPERSON: You still resided there at all times?

MR CELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't reside at Mpumalanga.

MR CELE: I resided at Unit 3 before the violence erupted at eMalangeni. That is around 1987, 1988 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where's Unit 3?

MR CELE: In Mpumalanga township.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just going by our affidavit where you say you came down with your parents to eMalangeni in the Camperdown district. Paragraph 2, you said you went to school and then you worked at various places and finally finishing at Stock Owners. Paragraph 3

"Throughout my school years and whilst employed by Stock Owners, I resided at Unit 6, eMalangeni, with my parents."

That's what you said on oath.

MR CELE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So you resided with them while you were at Stock Owners, till you were arrested? And you were residing with your parents at eMalangeni.

MR CELE: That's correct, and my home is still at eMalangeni, but we have another house at Unit 3.

MR PANDAY: May I proceed, Mr Chairman.

Now the Ekwandeni area, that's got ANC supporters there as well, is that correct? You just said that there were ANC supporters there.

MR CELE: As I explained before there are people who are ANC members that I'm aware of, but most of the people who stayed there are not from that area previously. But I do know of some ANC members who used to attend our meetings.

MR PANDAY: Was there any violence in Ekwandeni area?

MR CELE: Yes, there used to be.

MR PANDAY: With who was this violence?

MR CELE: Unit 6 is more like a township and most of the people who stayed there resided there because they worked in that area. There was a Mobena family residing near Unit 6, as well as a Mthembu family in that area and people like Moosa Zuma, he used to stay in that house and the ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could we come back to the Mabaso family. You know Sia...(indistinct) Mabaso?

MR CELE: Yes, I know him very well.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And he attended UDF meetings, is that right?

MR CELE: That's correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was he a member of the UDF?

MR CELE: I cannot state that he was a UDF member, because I had never seen his membership card.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On page 52 you said under oath

"Sibaningi was himself a member of the UDF"

So today you can't tell us but on that day you stated that under oath.

MR CELE: To be a member of any organisation you should have a card, without that card I cannot call you a member.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now we've got on page 43, I think, or somewhere - ja, membership cards. Now we've got membership cards and you've just told if there's a membership card, they're members of that organisation. Do you know anything about these membership cards and when they were issued?

MR CELE: I would just like to know where they received these cards from ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I'm asking you whether you know anything about these cards and whether you could tell us when they were issued, you were the leader in the vicinity.

MR CELE: I do not know anything about these cards.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And do you know anything about the death of Jabulani Ndebele?

MR CELE: I remember about that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was he killed before the attack on the Mabaso house that we're dealing here with?

MR CELE: When Jabulani Ndebele died the Mabaso household had not been attacked by then.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you know anything about the death of Sibaningi Mabaso?

MR CELE: About her death, it took place prior to the attack on the Mabaso family.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And did it take place after the killing of your girlfriend?

MR CELE: Yes, she was killed after that incident.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was there any relation or any bearing on the fact that they were killed after the death of your girlfriend? Was that a revenge for the death of your girlfriend?

MR CELE: What I can state about the death of Jabulani Ndebele and Sibaningi is that it was the result of the situation in the community, that is the political conflict starting from the attack on my home and the attack on Thombisa, as well as the attack on them. That was all because of the political situation in that area.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you applied for amnesty yourself?

MR CELE: I made an application with regards to the offence for which I was convicted.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And that was for the killing of the Mabaso family?

MR CELE: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And I presume your amnesty has been refused, is that correct?

MR CELE: The person who came to me explained that Mr Gwala's application had been accepted and she enquired if I had made an application and ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I've only asked you a straightforward question. Did you apply for amnesty in relation to the killing of the Mabaso children, those we are now dealing with? Yes or no, that's the only thing I want to know. I'm not trying to trick you here.

MR CELE: Yes, I did and I explained there why I had made that application.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja, and in that application you stated that you weren't part of the attack, you're not guilty of this offence, is that correct?

MR CELE: That's correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And did you then receive a letter from the TRC, saying that they refused the application because you're not admitting guilt? Is that correct?

MR CELE: I received a letter but I was told that I would also appear before the TRC.

JUDGE DE JAGER: They never told you that your amnesty application has been refused? So is it still pending then? Because I want to explain to you what happened. If you're not guilty of an offence, if you say: "I haven't committed this offence", we can't give you amnesty because the Act says that we can only give amnesty to people who admit that they committed an offence. And I just want to know what happened to your application, because your application is not before us today and according to information I received, your amnesty application has been refused for the reason that you said: "I'm not guilty". And I want to find out whether that's correct or whether we could help you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll help you to obtain information ...(intervention)

MR CELE: Yes, I did make the application as you've just explained and I did mention that I was not guilty, which I still reiterate today. I am not going to change that position, because I was not guilty, I did not take part in that crime.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I'm happy with that, and perhaps the legal adviser could explain to you after we've left here, why your application wasn't enrolled for amnesty at the hearing. He'll be able to explain that to you and then you could decide whatever you should want to do about it.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Cele, the Mabaso family will testify that they moved in Ekwandeni area and that was also an area that had ANC supporters in it. Will they be lying?

MR CELE: Please repeat.

MR PANDAY: The Mabaso family will testify by saying that the reason they moved, or when they moved into the Ekwandeni area, that area was still an area with ANC supporters. Will they be lying?

MR CELE: Before I respond to that question perhaps I should ask why they fled from an ANC area if they were members of the ANC.

MR PANDAY: I want you to answer my question. Will they be lying to say that the Ekwandeni area was also an area with ANC supporters?

MR CELE: I would say yes, they are lying because the people who resided there did not know anything about them.

MR PANDAY: Mr Cele, my question to you was not whether anyone knew them, my question is that they moved into the Ekwandeni area which had ANC supporters. Did that area have ANC supporters?

MR CELE: There were ANC members.

MR PANDAY: Now the reason for them moving is that there was problems between Mr Gwala's father-in-law and their family. Now that was in now way an indication that they were IFP supporters. Will you still be able to say that they are lying?

MR CELE: They are lying. I dispute what they are saying.

MR PANDAY: Now the Mabaso family, were they a very powerful family in the area?

MR CELE: I do not recall them having any prominence in the area.

MR PANDAY: So if the community had a problem with them, the community would have been able to sort them out, isn't that so?

MR CELE: The community would have been able to sort out a problem if they had one.

MR PANDAY: Now you were the leader in the area, what did you do to sort them out?

MR CELE: How could we solve a problem about people who just fled? And the reason they fled is that they knew something. They were not attacked, they were not intimidated, they were not harassed, why did they just pack up and leave?

MR PANDAY: That's not the question I asked you, my question to you is simple. We've heard evidence to suggest that they were part of the IFP, that came from Mr Gwala and even you as well suggested that they were part of the IFP. Now, if they were part of the IFP and you considered them a threat, what did you do to resolve the problem? You were the leader in the area.

MR CELE: Normally I used to follow and investigate whatever claim that was brought to me, so that innocent people are not attacked or killed haphazardly. I didn't want to make mistakes, that is why I followed whatever information I received about them.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Cele, we need to get the interpretation, so please try and slow down, she cannot keep up and we cannot write down everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Well on that I would like to ask everybody here, counsel on both sides, has anybody made enquiries of the ANC, as to the cards that we have been given copies of, as to when - they all official numbers on them, when those numbers were issued, and matters of that nature? It seems to me that rather than having to sit and listen to all sorts of allegations and averments, we should endeavour to get some certitude about it, find out if there are records available as to when they joined, how many of the family joined, and matters of that nature.

MR HARKOO: We will attend to that in the break, Mr Chairman.

MR CELE: I would also appreciate that.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Cele, was the Mabaso family a threat to you? Were they a threat to you?

MR CELE: They were a threat to me.

MR PANDAY: What did they do to be a threat to you?

MR CELE: As I explained before about people like Jabulani Ndebele, who was Sibongile Mabaso's boyfriend, he also resided at One North, that was something I followed, because I wanted to find out to what organisation he belonged, and I learnt that he was an IFP member.

MR PANDAY: What else did the Mabaso family do to cause a threat to you? Did they do anything to your family?

MR CELE: I explained that my brother, the Nkosi Cele was killed ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: No, leave your brother. Did they threaten your family to get hold of you?

MR CELE: Many a times.

MR PANDAY: Did they threaten your girlfriend to get hold of you?

MR CELE: That's also correct.

MR PANDAY: What did they do to her?

MR CELE: She used to tell me that they would harass her, insult her. Such things I regarded as a threat. She even asked me on one occasion that did I see that they're going to kill her because of me, and there was nothing I could do, because she was innocent. If they were after me they should have killed me.

MR PANDAY: But you were the leader, when you go all these complaints, what did you do? Didn't you think 'we need to attack them', didn't you think that 'we need to go to the head office of the IFP, to tell them what's happening'? That one family is threatening the entire ANC in the area. What did you do, nothing?

MR CELE: As I've just explained, it was not just them, that they had accomplices, people like Moosa Zuma and Jabulani Ndebele. People who were not from the area itself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you then order them to kill Jabulani?

MR CELE: I did not issue such instructions to kill people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you were not involved in the killing of Jabulani?

MR CELE: I did not take part, but as a leader I would say it did involve me, because I learnt that it was the youth that I led that was involved or responsible.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now did Mr Gwala, the present applicant, complain to you and say: "Listen, the Mabaso family is a threat to me, they're threatening to kill me, you should intervene as a leader and try to protect me"? Did he ever complain to you?

MR CELE: No, he resided at a different area from the organisational policy, he should have approached the leader at his area, not me, because he was not under my jurisdiction. He could have just told me informally if he had such a problem of the situation that he was encountering, but it would not have been easy for him to report to me as a leader.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Would you have sanctioned the killing of the Mabaso family if he had approached you?

MR CELE: Had he approached me, I would not have made a decision by myself, but I would have reported it to the Executive Committee which was responsible for dealing with community problems that affected the community as such. He would have had to explain his case to that committee and a decision would have been made there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you a member of the Executive, or did you have influence at the Executive Committee?

MR CELE: I did have a relationship with the Executive Committee, because they reported to me ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you tell me, would the Executive Committee or any ANC committee or UDF committee, have sanctioned an attack on a house and the killing of children?

MR CELE: From what I know of the organisational policy ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) I'm waiting for the interpretation, because you've talked about six sentences and I haven't received a feedback.

INTERPRETER: Mr Cele mentioned - he was as far as what he knows about the policy of the organisation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, what would have happened?

MR CELE: The policy of my organisation is against attacking such a person as a child, because that person is innocent.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you to say you would not have attacked a group of people where there were little children present? Your organisation, the ANC, would not have sanctioned that?

MR CELE: I'd like to explain that it is possible that such an incident or instance may happen. It may be possible that you plan an attack and on arrival you discover that you see your targets, particularly the males. It is not the policy of the organisation to attack women generally, but it also depends just on how much she is involved in perpetrating the conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: We were talking to you and you're avoiding the answer it seems, about little children. Would you agree that it is not the policy of the ANC to launch an attack on a group where there are little children, who would be at risk? Do you agree with that?

MR CELE: I would agree with you, but on certain conditions.

MR PANDAY: Mr Cele, finally, is it correct that before any attack is carried out one would require the authorisation from the Executive Committee to carry out that attack?

MR CELE: Yes, I would agree with you.

MR PANDAY: Now if Mr Gwala took the decision on himself, isn't he acting outside the policies of the ANC? Listen to my question very carefully. If Mr Gwala took the decision to attack without the permission of the Executive Committee, he'll be acting on his own and not with their authorisation, is that correct? Yes or no? Don't give me a long story.

MR CELE: If he takes the decision on his own without any authorisation, that is wrong, he should follow certain procedures.

MR PANDAY: You've inferred the answer as opposed to giving a direct answer. Finally, Mr Cele, the Mabaso family will deny that they were at any stage IFP members. Will you still dispute that, yes or no?

MR CELE: If they deny their IFP membership they would be telling lies, they'll be lying under oath.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well could I add to what I had said earlier. If enquiries are to be made, they should perhaps be made both ways. The IFP should be asked whether these people have been members or were recorded as members of the IFP, and the ANC should be asked the same.

MR PANDAY: I'll endeavour to try and get that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously, merely to ask Mabaso would not be sufficient, because we have heard there were many members of the family or the clan and we have to use all the names of the people concerned. You've finished, have you?

MR PANDAY: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Cele, were you at any time before the attack on the Mabaso family, aware that the Mabaso family was looking for Mr Gwala to kill him?

MR CELE: I had heard about it.

MS MTANGA: Where did you hear this from?

MR CELE: I learnt of it after the police had been to the Gasa home, that is the instance when they went there looking for a firearm. That is the incident which was reported to me, and they also informed me that the police were looking for Mr Gwala.

ADV SIGODI: Is it the police or is it the Mabaso family who were looking for Mr Gwala? Who was looking for Mr Gwala?

MR CELE: From what I heard the police were not alone, they were in the company of someone who knew the Gasa family and also knew Mr Gwala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you frequently have an informer with the police, don't you? The police were, as I understand the evidence we've heard, investigating the illegal possession of firearms and seeking to obtain the firearms. Is that not so?

MR CELE: I would dispute that, with regards to those police officers.

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't that what they asked him? They asked him to produce firearms that he detained from Gwala. He denied possession of firearms. And from that, do you assume something different?

MR CELE: It is not that I assumed, but everyone in the Mpumalanga area knew how the ZPs operated. They would not have worked with me as a UDF member and they would not have collaborated with you if you were not an IFP member, they were always biased towards the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: So we must assume that all the police were corrupt and would only support one political organisation, is that what you're telling us? And if the police make enquiries, it indicates some improper intention on their part. Is that what you say?

MR CELE: It was their behaviour that indicated that they were biased, it was clear. Even when we were fighting, they would be present.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any further questions?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

Mr Cele, if you are saying that people who were looking for Mr Gasa and Mr Gwala, were the police, how did you link the police with the Mabaso family? How did you make that link, to suspect that they were behind this search for Mr Gwala and Mr Gasa?

MR CELE: I can explain how I link the police with the Mabaso family. I heard that there was a family from the Mabaso household who was present when the police went to Mr Gasa's home.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cele, in your knowledge - and I want you to be truthful on this, was there a feud between the Gasa family and the Mabaso family?

MR CELE: From what I know there was some conflict, but that was due to the fact that he had assisted somebody who belonged to my organisation.

MS MTANGA: Who was this person that belonged to your organisation that Mr Gasa had assisted?

MR CELE: Please repeat the question.

MS MTANGA: The person that was assisted by Mr Gasa, who as a result made him a target to the Mabaso family, who was this person? This woman that you mentioned.

MR CELE: From what I heard it was Sibaningi Mabaso.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cele, I find this confusing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What was the name of that person again?

MS MTANGA: Sibaningi Mabaso.

My understanding of your testimony was that the reason that Mr Gasa, the cause of the feud between Mr Gasa and the Mabaso family was that Mr Gasa had assisted a certain woman who belonged to your organisation and that linked this woman to your organisation and to yourself and hence, Mr Gasa there was this feud between him and the Mabaso family. So I'm asking, are you saying that this woman who was the cause of this feud was Sibaningi Mabaso, who was also the Mabaso family member?

MR CELE: I do not quite understand that question.

MS MTANGA: Okay, let me repeat my ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood what you said, and it's slightly different, that you were asked whether you knew of a conflict between the Gasa family and the Mabaso family and you said you knew there was a conflict, because a person assisted someone "who belonged to my organisation". And you were then asked: "Who was this person who assisted someone who belonged to your organisation?" And you gave the answer: "Sibaningi Mabaso".

MR CELE: I thought you were referring to the conflict between the Gwala and the Mabaso family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And you said it was ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may correct you, his answer is referring to the feud between Gwala and Mabaso, whereas my question was referring to the feud between the Gasa family and the Mabaso family. His answer was referring to the Gwala family, not to the ...

CHAIRPERSON: The Gasa family ...(inaudible) Mabaso family.

MS MTANGA: What was the cause of the feud between the Gasa family and the Mabaso family? That was my question, the Gasa family.

MR CELE: I would be making a serious mistake if I were to state that any person from either of these two families had ever reported to me about a problem between them.

MS MTANGA: In your testimony you mentioned that at some stage you made investigations about Jabulani Ndebele. For example, you made a follow-up as to what his political affiliation was and your investigation was that he was an IFP member. What made you investigate Jabulani Ndebele?

MR CELE: The reason why I investigated Jabulani Ndebele and Moosa Zuma, was because these people had been reported to have visited the Mabaso family. It was well within my right to investigate them, so that people are not attacked mistakenly. I had to find out true facts as to whether these people belonged to a particular organisation, which I did find out and I reported the matter to the committee. The area of One North was a stronghold of the IFP and One South was an ANC stronghold. The comrades from that area informed me about Jabulani and Moosa.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cele, can you try and cut your answers to be very short please. And then when you learnt that this Mr Ndebele was an IFP member, what did you do with that information?

CHAIRPERSON: Reported it to the Committee. That's what he said, wasn't it?

MR CELE: Yes, I reported it back to the committee.

MS MTANGA: Is it not true that the reason that there was this feud between yourself and the Mabaso family, it's because you were suspected for being involved in the killing of Jabulani Ndebele?

MR CELE: I would say it was one of the reasons.

MS MTANGA: How was the decision to kill Mr Jabulani Ndebele taken? Was it in a meeting or was it just individuals who took it upon themselves to kill him?

MR CELE: As far as Mr Ndebele's death is concerned, I do not believe there was a decision that was made that he was killed. You do not just kill people for the sake of their membership, you would perhaps kill them for their actions, had they been involved ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Mr Cele, please cut the answers short. If you're saying there was never a decision taken in a meeting to kill Mr Ndebele, are you saying that certain individuals within the ANC took it upon themselves to kill him? Yes or no.

MR CELE: Yes, that's correct.

MS MTANGA: Did Mr Ndebele die before your brother was killed or did your brother die before Mr Ndebele? Who died first between your brother and Mr Ndebele?

MR CELE: He died after my brother was killed.

MS MTANGA: Did he die before or after your girlfriend was killed?

MR CELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think my girlfriend was already late at that time, although I cannot recall lit precisely.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: Just one question, Mr Chairperson. Just one.

In your evidence you mentioned that there were members of the ANC living in the Ekwandeni area, can you tell us whether there were also members of the IFP living in that area?

MR CELE: There were that I was aware of.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

ADV SIGODI: Who is Thabisile Mabaso?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

ADV SIGODI: Who is Thabisile Mabaso?

MR CELE: I know her.

ADV SIGODI: What was she to you? Please switch on your mike.

MR CELE: Before the violence erupted she was my girlfriend.

ADV SIGODI: What is she to this Mabaso family? Thabisile Mabaso, what is she to this Mabaso family?

MR CELE: She's a member of the family.

ADV SIGODI: Is she a sister to Sibongile?

MR CELE: Yes, that's correct.

ADV SIGODI: And then what happened between you and Thabisile?

MR CELE: We broke up.

ADV SIGODI: When was this?

MR CELE: Although I cannot recall the exact date ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Alright, I'll make it easy for you, I want you to shorten your answers. How long before you started your affair with Thombisa?

MR CELE: It was quite a while.

ADV SIGODI: And did you suspect that she was jealous, Thabisile was jealous of your affair with Thombisa? Yes or no.

MR CELE: I will say no, it was possible and it was also something that may not have happened.

ADV SIGODI: Alright. In your affidavit at page 53, paragraph 8.4 you say that

"I contend that she has falsely implicated ..."

at the bottom, Chairperson.

"... she has falsely implicated me, because she blames me for the deaths mentioned above in respect of which I was charged, and possibly because she felt jilted."

So did you suspect that she was jealous of your relationship with Thombisa?

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Right. Now in your evidence-in-chief today you mentioned that: "when Thombisa was abducted by Sibongile, the sister of Thabisile, she was asking her if she was still involved with you and if she continues she is going to be killed." Do you remember yourself saying that?

MR CELE: Yes, I do.

ADV SIGODI: Now is it not the fact that the dispute between Thombisa and the Mabaso family was because of your affair and not because of any political involvement? According to you. Wasn't she abducted - according to you, wasn't she abducted because she was involved with you and because she felt jilted? Yes or no.

MR CELE: That is not so.

ADV SIGODI: Then why was she abducted? Why did you say that they were asking her if she was still involved with you and if she continues she's going to be killed? And if you are alleging that there was this dispute between Thabisile and Thombisa.

MR CELE: There had already been an incident that took place at my home.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, I won't take that matter any further. Turn also to page 54, paragraph 9.1, the last sentence in paragraph 9.1, where we just couldn't know when you first met Mr Gwala. In your affidavit you say

"To the best of my recollection I met him for the first time at the Camperdown Magistrate's Court."

What do you say to that?

MR CELE: Yes, I did say so, but for certain reasons.

ADV SIGODI: When did you first meet Mr Gwala?

MR CELE: I explained earlier on that I met him shortly after the incident where he assisted my girlfriend.

ADV SIGODI: Ja, but was it in court?

MR CELE: I explained why I mentioned so in that affidavit.

ADV SIGODI: There can only be one truth, it's either you knew Mr Gwala or you didn't know him, and you just met him in court. Which is the truth?

MR CELE: I knew him.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR CELE: I had already stated the reasons why I stated so in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your answer.

MR CELE: I had already stated the reasons why I made this statement in court.

CHAIRPERSON: You were trying to deceive the Court, that you didn't know this man who was a co-accused of yours. Never seen him before you saw him in the Magistrate's Court. Isn't that the position?

MR CELE: Yes, there were reasons why I stated so.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you're going to be?

MR PANDAY: The adjournment is fine, we can try and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Half an hour?

MR PANDAY: That's fine, Mr Chairman.

MR HARKOO: That's fine, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what arrangements they've made for refreshments for your clients ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR HARKOO: I'm not sure.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I believe they thought that we would finish before lunchtime, so I don't think there's any arrangements as far as lunch is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then we'll say half an hour. If they haven't got any, they haven't got any, it won't help ...(indistinct - no microphone)

We will adjourn now till a quarter to two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Any further ...

MR HARKOO: I have no further witnesses, thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the victim I'll be calling is just the daughter and it's Sibongile Ntombi Mabaso.

ADV SIGODI: What language will she be speaking?

MR PANDAY: Zulu, I think.

ADV SIGODI: Give us your full names.

SIBONGILE NTOMBI MABASO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you. May I proceed?

Ms Mabaso, is it correct that you belong to the family, the Mabaso family that resides in the Hammarsdale area?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: On the 6th of March 1991, were you present when the family was attacked?

MS MABASO: Yes I was, I was one of the people who were attacked.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now on that day in question, were you able to identify any of the attackers?

MS MABASO: Yes, I could identify some.

MR PANDAY: Do you know the names of the attackers you can identify?

MS MABASO: I saw Sokhele as well as Bani. It was dark, although there was light in the hut.

MR PANDAY: Now you said you saw Sokhele.

MS MABASO: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Right, do you know Sokhele's surname?

MS MABASO: It's Gwala.

MR PANDAY: It's the applicant that you are talking about?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Who else did you see with him, just give us the names slowly, so we can write down the names.

MS MABASO: I saw Bani.

MR PANDAY: Bani. Now is that Bani Mabaso you refer to?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now are you sure that you saw Bani Mabaso there?

MS MABASO: Yes, by that time I'd already fallen, after they had shot us and at that time they were proceeding to stab us.

MR PANDAY: Now how do you know Bani Mabaso?

MS MABASO: I know from his home. He resides at Njubugazi.

MR PANDAY: Is he related to you in any way?

MS MABASO: Yes.

MR PANDAY: How is he related to you?

MS MABASO: His father is my father's brother.

MR PANDAY: Now who else could you identify that was present?

MS MABASO: I could not identify the others. There were many of them.

MR PANDAY: Now you've heard the evidence that was given here and Mr Gwala maintains, together with his witnesses, that your family was IFP supporters. Is he correct in that evidence?

MS MABASO: That is incorrect.

MR PANDAY: Which party did you support? And your family?

MS MABASO: We supported the ANC.

MR PANDAY: And are you all at present still supporters of the ANC?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now during that period of 1991, was there any violence in the area that you were living in?

MS MABASO: There was no longer any violence in the area, there was just criminality.

MR PANDAY: Now you all first resided in the eMalangeni Reserve, is that correct?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: And then thereafter you all moved to the Ekwandeni area, is that correct?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Is it also correct that you were attacked at the Ekwandeni area?

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now, do you know the reason as to why you were attacked?

MS MABASO: The reason why we were attacked is that on a particular weekend we received information that we would be attacked because we had murdered Mr Gasa, who was also our relative. We followed that information. We learnt that that information came from within the family and on following up the information the family denied that they had indeed plotted to attack us, and my mother went to those family members to extend her apologies for suspecting them, and on that day we were later attacked.

MR PANDAY: Now Ms Mabaso, did you learn where this information came from, implicating your family in the attack of Mr Gasa?

MS MABASO: It was something that was from within the Gasa family. Mr Sokhele used to spend a lot of his time there as well. This was plotted on a Saturday and it was alleged that there had been an Inyanga involved when they made those discussions.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you tell us, what was the trouble between the Gasa family and the Mabaso family, why did you quarrel, the two families? What was the reason?

MS MABASO: The Gasa family and ourselves are one family, we are related. On occasions that Mr Gasa was drunk he would harass my father and that altercation or such altercations were settled with my father at a later stage. However, that appeared to be the reason why we were attacked later.

MR PANDAY: Now Ms Mabaso, the eMalangeni Reserve, was there any problems, was that - or rather, was that an IFP area or an ANC area?

MS MABASO: At first it was an IFP stronghold, led by Mr Nkehle. At that time we were harassed to the extent that we used to have our supper early, so that we could flee to the mountains to spend the night there.

MR PANDAY: Now your later move to the Ekwandeni area, what area was that? Was it an ANC area or an IFP area?

MS MABASO: It was an ANC area.

MR PANDAY: Now was there any problems in that area?

MS MABASO: There were no problems at Ekwandeni, the only problem we experienced was the attack that was launched on us, after which we were forced to move.

MR PANDAY: Now the applicant, Mr Gwala, maintains that your family was part of the IFP and you were lodging threats and attacks on ANC people in the area.

MS MABASO: That is incorrect. I used to reside at One South, which was an ANC stronghold, such that with regards to Jabulani Ndebele we can even contact Mr Sbu Ndebele to find out which area they resided in. They actually lived in One South.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Gwala has further made the allegations that you all at times abducted or kidnapped Thombisa and the reason you all had done that is because she was a comrade's girlfriend and a supporter of the ANC. Did you all at any stage abduct her?

MS MABASO: That is also not true. It was on a Friday and Thombisa used to knock off at three from work and we left work at five. When we got to the rank we heard about what had happened to her. However, on the following day we later learnt that it was alleged that we had also been involved in the abduction, which was not true. At that time that she was abducted we were at work.

MR PANDAY: Now did you all know Thombisa?

MS MABASO: Yes, we did, she was also my relative.

MR PANDAY: How did you know her? She was also your relative.

MS MABASO: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now have you also heard the evidence that Mr Gwala stated that on many times he had to intervene, because you all had kidnapped or abducted Thombisa.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On many times, or one?

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, my apologies.

At a certain time he had to intervene when your family members had kidnapped and abducted Thombisa. Do you know of any incident as such?

MS MABASO: That is not correct, they are just afraid of the person who was responsible for that. They are afraid of Tuli, because he is the one who is responsible, but he still resides at eMalangeni.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What's his name?

MS MABASO: Tuli.

MR PANDAY: Now on the night of the attack, when Mr Gwala came there, did any discussions transpire between family members and Mr Gwala?

MS MABASO: No, we did not speak to him, because after the death of his father-in-law he came to hate us ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: No, no, let me rephrase my question. When Mr Gwala came on the night of 6 March '91, to attack your family, did he tell you all who he was looking for?

MS MABASO: He asked for the boys and my mother asked who is he that he's enquiring after the boys, and thereafter they started shooting.

MR PANDAY: Did he give a reason why he was looking for the boys?

MS MABASO: No he did not, he just started firing.

MR PANDAY: Did he enquire about anyone else in your family?

MS MABASO: I do not recall about anybody else, because they were also aware that my father was on night shift on that day.

MR PANDAY: Now when you all told him there's nobody there, what was their reaction?

MS MABASO: They started firing. My mother and I were standing in the doorway when we were shot and my child, who was shot, also ran towards them and when she returned they'd already shot her.

MR PANDAY: When you say your child was shot, what do you mean your child ran towards them? Can you explain that?

MS MABASO: The child was trying to run out of the door and at that time they shot her and then she ran back towards me and that was when the child collapsed and died.

MR PANDAY: So if anyone came there to attack adults, would it be correct that they would have seen the children clearly?

MS MABASO: Yes, that's correct.

MR PANDAY: And they would have had no reason to attack the children?

JUDGE DE JAGER: She considers that to be a statement.

MR PANDAY: Oh, sorry.

Now Ms Mabaso, after this shooting had taken place, did any of your male folk return to the house?

MS MABASO: The only person who was at home had already left our hut when they arrived, he had already gone to sleep at another hut. The only person who was there was Letutula, who was eleven at the time.

MR PANDAY: Now in your affidavit on page 37, on paragraph 9, this is a typed version, you say that they were disturbed by the arrival of your father. What do you mean by the arrival of your father?

MS MABASO: My father was at a shebeen. When we started screaming he came from that house. He was in the company of his brother, Dodo. It was at that time when they fled.

MR PANDAY: And was your father and his brother, did they have any weapons on them?

MS MABASO: When my father arrived at home he was alone, because his brother first went to his house to look for a weapon and by that time I had already fled to a neighbour's house, but I heard my father's voice at home. After returning from the neighbours I was, or rather, I became unconscious.

MR PANDAY: Now do you believe that the attack launched by Mr Gwala on your family was for political reasons?

MS MABASO: No.

MR PANDAY: Can you forward any reason or explanation as to why your family may have been attacked?

MS MABASO: They have not told the truth before the Committee. At first we used to reside at One South. Sokhele and Swelemandla Shozi, as well as a Buthelezi boy, demanded that we leave One South. They were intent on killing us and on a later stage they killed my sister Simangele(?), which I reported to Mr Ncemu, who was a leader in One South. When we discovered her body she had been stabbed and her body thrown into a dam. That was Tulani Cele and the others.

JUDGE DE JAGER: We know there were several people killed on both your family's side and on the other side, why were those killings taking place? If it was not for a political reason, what was the reason? Why this fight between the two families? And why was Sokhele involved, he's not part of the families? Why did he order you to leave One South, for instance? What was his business about asking you to leave?

MS MABASO: When we came to the eMalangeni area, Tulani was still a young boy and when the IFP was established, Tulani started working and we had no problems at that time. I then became involved with Jabulani Ndebele and on hearing that we had broken up they kidnapped him and kept him at a certain house.

I then went to Jabulani's home to report that he had been kidnapped. We then returned with the police and that was the first occasion which we went with the police to his house. It transpired later that they had taken him to a certain place where they had killed him.

MR PANDAY: Now, Jabulani Ndebele, do you know what party he belonged to?

MS MABASO: He was an ANC member, because when we first knew him at eMalangeni he was in the company of Tulani and other members of the ANC.

MR PANDAY: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on I'd like to clarify something. When these people came and attacked you, as well as shooting you, did they commit any other form of attack?

MS MABASO: My sister, Jabu, who was attacked first, was shot and hacked with an axe. I was shot on my foot and stabbed all over my body. I have stab wounds all over.

CHAIRPERSON: Your mother?

MS MABASO: My mother was stabbed all over her body and her arm was also affected, such that she became disabled. She was also shot on her breast.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Ms Mabaso, you say that Jabulani Ndebele was kidnapped, around what time, or what period was this? Can you tell us when this happened?

MS MABASO: I am not certain of the date. When he was kidnapped, Tulani and them alleged that he stolen some zinc sheets.

MR HARKOO: Do you know who was the person that had kidnapped him?

MS MABASO: He was kidnapped by Tulani's comrades, who was at that time at work and they waited until he returned from work, so that they can take a decision about him.

MR HARKOO: Was Tulani a member of any political organisation?

MS MABASO: He was an ANC member. He had fled to the eKanyzeni area when the IFP was still dominant in the area, but his family members were all IFP members, except for him, because even his late brother was an IFP member.

MR HARKOO: And you say that Jabulani Ndebele was also an ANC member, is that correct?

MS MABASO: Yes he was, from what I know, I knew him as an ANC member. That is why I say even Sbu Ndebele, who was his brother, could be phoned to enquire where they resided and also for the reason that they resided at Clermont, which was an ANC stronghold.

MR HARKOO: Could he also have been an IFP supporter?

MS MABASO: I do not recall that.

MR HARKOO: But it is possible that he may have been an IFP supporter, is that it?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, with due respect, my learned friend is asking the witness to speculate, On that basis, I mean we can speculate on anything. It's a bit unfair.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - no microphone), what did she say?

MS MABASO: I said I do not recall him in the company of IFP people.

MR HARKOO: Do you know Mr Moosa Zuma?

MS MABASO: I do know Moosa Zuma, he came with Mr Nkehle. Tulani is not telling the truth when he says we were IFP members, because we were harassed for our political membership. At that time he had already fled to Khanyazeni.

MR HARKOO: Yes, but were you aware that Mr Moosa Zuma was an IFP leader?

MS MABASO: Yes.

MR HARKOO: And the evidence from Tulani was that Mr Moosa Zuma used to frequent your place, is that correct?

MS MABASO: No, he did not. He would come when we were away, whilst we had fled away to the mountains, but the IFP would normally come to my home looking for my father, because they wanted him.

MR HARKOO: I see. Who from the IFP used to come to visit your father?

MS MABASO: They wanted to kill my father, they even wanted to kill my brother, Sibaningi, because on one occasion he had been wearing a T-shirt which they claimed to be an ANC T-shirt, and he was harassed for that. Even I did not go past Mr Nkehle's home for the harassment that we suffered under the IFP. It puzzles me that Tulani can speak the way he did today.

MR HARKOO: Did Mr Moosa Zuma visit you when you were at, or visit your family at all when you were at Ekwandeni township?

MS MABASO: He would come just to see what the situation was like. By that time the IFP had already been driven from the eMalangeni area.

ADV SIGODI: When Mr Zuma came to your home, was this a friendly visit or what type of a visit was it?

MS MABASO: It was not a friendly visit.

ADV SIGODI: What did he come to do?

MS MABASO: He would perhaps ask after his girlfriend Domkhulu and perhaps request somebody to go call her, but he was never friendly, he would be there to harass us. On a certain occasion, on a New Year's eve they were seen carrying firearms, surrounding the house, when we asked them what was going on, they just said that no, there was nothing happening. Later on we learnt that they had been intending to attack us on that day.

ADV SIGODI: Who is Domkhulu?

MS MABASO: It was Domkhulu Gcabashe.

ADV SIGODI: Was she any relative of yours?

MS MABASO: She was my mother's relative.

ADV SIGODI: Was she staying with your family?

MS MABASO: No, she stayed near my home.

MR HARKOO: You mentioned in your evidence earlier that Mr Gwala was, well the applicant was afraid of one, Mr Tuli, now who is this Mr Tuli? Can you tell us?

MS MABASO: I said Tulani is afraid of Tuli. Everyone in eMalangeni knows about Tuli and Mr Cele knows that it was Tuli Zuma who abducted his girlfriend and not us.

MR HARKOO: And was Mr Tuli Zuma a member of any political organisation?

MS MABASO: Tuli Zuma resided in One North, but for the reason that was not an IFP supporter, he moved to One South.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you know why he abducted the woman? What was the reason for abducting Thombisa?

MS MABASO: I did not know, but I assumed that it was for the reason that her boyfriend had killed Jabulani Ndebele.

MR HARKOO: Do you know why - okay, shall I put it to you this way? Was there any political motive relating to the death of Mr Gasa?

MS MABASO: No, there was not. Mr Gasa was not on good terms with Mr Madladla, Mr Gasa had given my father a veld which then Mr Madladla had appropriated, after which Mr Madladla then hired the police to go kill Mr Gwala's father-in-law. It was later discovered that Mr Madladla had been responsible for the death of Mr Gasa.

MR HARKOO: And Mr Madladla then - I presume he was friendly with the police, he had a good relationship with the police?

MS MABASO: They were, because his vehicle was also kept at the police station and he used to mention it in public that he would not let any other man do as he pleases with him, and there was an outcry because he was not arrested, the police did not take any steps against him.

MR HARKOO: Was Mr Madladla an IFP member?

MS MABASO: I am not sure.

MR HARKOO: You heard the evidence of the applicant and the applicant at the tail end of his evidence indicated, or he expressed sadness and apology to the family, are you prepared to accept that?

JUDGE DE JAGER: It really is not a question that we should decide on, it's not a factor that the Act brings into ... I think it's very unfair and I've often said it, that practitioners would ask a mother whether she's prepared to forgive the person who killed her child or her relative. I think it's perhaps necessary for reconciliation, that may play a role, but it's not something for us to decide on, maybe it's for the Reparations and Reconciliation Committee, but it's not a factor that could carry any weight with us in deciding whether amnesty should be granted or not. But if you insist on asking the question, you're free to do so.

MR HARKOO: I was just trying to elicit her attitude, but I'm quite happy to leave it in the hands of the Commission.

JUDGE DE JAGER: If you want to answer the question you could answer it.

MS MABASO: It is not easy to forgive him, because it appears that they are stating contradictory evidence.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, a few questions.

Ms Mabaso, the friction between your father and Mr Gasa, was there anything political about it? Was it due to political differences?

MS MABASO: No, it was just personal and later on the family mediated and they were required to shake hands and the matter was resolved, but after Mr Gasa's death we were implicated to have been responsible in collusion with the KwaZulu Police. The police did not even stay at our area, they resided at eMalangeni.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying that before you were attacked by Mr Gwala and his friends, there was already a rumour that you were responsible for the death of Mr Gasa?

MS MABASO: We had already heard about those allegations. Everyone used to enquire that they had heard this allegation that we're going to be killed for the reason of killing Mr Gasa, and we were puzzled as to how we could kill Mr Gasa who was our own flesh and blood.

MS MTANGA: Was there ever a rumour that you were going to kill Mr Gasa? That is, before his death was there ever a rumour that his life was in danger because of your family?

MS MABASO: No.

MS MTANGA: If that is so Ms Mabaso, on page 38, paragraph 14, the last sentence, why did you say in your statement

"Sokhele once mentioned that should anything happen to Mr Gasa, my family would be in trouble."

Why would Sokhele have said that to you if you were not suspected of being some kind of threat to Mr Gasa's life?

MS MABASO: We were never a threat to Mr Gasa, he was our relative. When we arrived at eMalangeni, he is the one who gave us a plot.

MS MTANGA: But why would Mr Gwala utter those words to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Well the allegation was not that you intended to kill him, is it, the allegation there seems to be that you paid the police to do so, and if that happened you would be in trouble. That's what you say in your affidavit.

MS MABASO: We did not really speak with Mr Gwala, we would just exchange glances, because at that time we were no longer on good terms.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just show her the affidavit, I don't know whether she ... and ask her to explain.

They're asking you about paragraph 14, could you explain what you've said there, the last two sentences.

MR PANDAY: I think, Mr Chairman, if I may just read the paragraph to her.

Ms Mabaso, do you remember when the TRC lady came to take a statement from you, you gave an affidavit? Do you remember giving an affidavit to the TRC lady? She wrote a statement, do you remember that?

INTERPRETER: Apparently she didn't hear me.

MR PANDAY: Ms Mabaso, can you hear me now?

MS MABASO: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now do you recall in September some time, of this year, a lady from the TRC came and took a statement from you?

MS MABASO: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now in the statement you told her the following - I'm going to read it to you and you must listen, right? You said the following

"Until now we have never been told the reason why we were attacked"

Is that correct?

MS MABASO: We learnt of it later.

MR PANDAY: Hang on, just ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: He's asking you whether you told this lady this, because she said this was what you told her and that's the only thing, not whether it's correct or not, whether you told her this.

MR PANDAY: Just listen to it and just confirm yes or no, right, if you said that. Then you say the following

"We only assumed that Sokhele was paying a revenge for the killing of his father-in-law, prior to this incident"

Did you tell her that?

MS MABASO: Yes.

MR PANDAY

"Although it was a well known fact that he had been killed by the police"

Did you tell her that?

MS MABASO: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Right. Then you go on to say

"They suspected that we paid the police to kill him"

Did you tell her that?

MS MABASO: That's true.

MR PANDAY: Then you say again

"Sokhele once mentioned that should anything happen to Mr Gasa, my family would be in trouble."

Did you tell her that?

MS MABASO: Yes, it was my father who made the contribution.

MR PANDAY: Just answer the question. Did you tell the lady that? Did you tell the TRC lady that? Right. Now listen to the question ...(intervention)

MS MABASO: Yes, it was my father who said so. It was something he had mentioned to my father. He was not on speaking terms with me.

MR PANDAY: ...(indistinct) Mr Chairman to know.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

My questions to you Ms Mabaso, is that would it be correct to infer from what has been said in that sentence, that Mr Gwala suspected you of being a threat or a danger to the life of Mr Gasa? ... that is your family.

MS MABASO: Mr Gwala interfered in a matter that involved relatives, that is why we concluded that we were attacked for the reason that they suspected that we killed Mr Gasa.

MS MTANGA: So yes, Ms Mabaso, this would be in line with your evidence that there was a friction between your family, that is your father and Mr Gasa, but this was a family related matter, it had nothing to do with politics. Am I correct to say that?

MS MABASO: By the time the problem had already been solved, it was only Mr Sokhele's wife who still remained aloof.

MS MTANGA: You also mention that the reason that Mr Cele's girlfriend, Thombisa, was killed could have been as a result of the death of Jabulani Ndebele. Was Tuli Zwane and Ndebele, were they friends? Tuli Zuma and Jabulani Ndebele, were they friends?

MS MABASO: Yes. They were from the same family, but Moosa was from Pietermaritzburg.

MS MTANGA: Ms Mabaso, I'm referring to Tuli Zuma. You said the girlfriend of Mr Cele was killed, was rumoured to be killed by Tuli Zuma.

MS MABASO: Thombisa?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

MS MABASO: I did not say so.

MS MTANGA: Ms Mabaso, didn't you say in your evidence: "It was rumoured that the person who killed Thombisa was Tuli Zuma, and everybody in the eMalangeni knew that"?

MS MABASO: It was known, because Thombisa's sister was present when she was abducted. She even mentioned to my mother that she had been present and witnessed who kidnapped Thombisa, because they used to work at the same place.

MS MTANGA: Did you also not say that: "It was then suspected that Tuli killed Thombisa, because Tulani Cele was suspected of having killed Jabulani Ndebele"?

MS MABASO: Yes, that is how it happened.

MS MTANGA: And then what was the relationship between Jabulani Ndebele and Tulani Zuma, were they friends, were they related, were they comrades? What was the relationship between the two?

MS MABASO: We knew them as comrades in the eMalangeni area, because when they came there they were together and they were received by Tulani. That is on the day when his brother had been killed, or that is on the day when the funeral had been held.

MS MTANGA: Is it correct that the first time that there was a friction amongst them is when Tulani Cele and his friends killed Jabulani Ndebele for having stolen something?

MS MABASO: That's how it was presented. Tulani had left the area when the violence erupted, he only returned later when things were back to normal, but he is the one person who managed to demand that we leave the area. This matter was reported to the comrades and by that time we had already dismantled everything at home and we were then forced to leave.

MS MTANGA: Why did Tulani drive your family out of eMalangeni?

MS MABASO: We did not know the reason. He used to harass our family, demanding that Sibaningi should join them at their meetings in the evenings. We used to complain that he was still young at the time. They wanted to forcibly take him to the meeting and we refused, which was why he said that the Mabaso family should leave.

MS MTANGA: Finally, Ms Mabaso, are you saying that even though your family refused Sibaningi to attend the meeting, yourself and your other sisters did attend the UDF meetings, or ANC meetings at that time? The same meetings that your brother wouldn't attend?

MS MABASO: Yes, we would go. Tulani would even come to me to enquire as to what had taken place at some meetings.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Sbu Ndebele ever involved in trying to reconcile the differences between your families?

MS MABASO: No.

MS MTANGA: But why were you saying that we could get information from him?

MS MABASO: That's because it was alleged that Jabulani was an IFP member. I was saying that Mr Sbu Ndebele could be telephoned to get from him as to which political organisation Jabulani belonged to.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINAITON BY MR PANDAY: Ms Mabaso, do you know if Mr Gwala and Mr Tulani Cele knew one another before, or a for long time?

MS MABASO: They knew each other for a short while. Gwala had a girlfriend residing at eMalangeni. They did not know each other for a long while. They were also not even neighbours.

MR PANDAY: And would you consider them to be friends? Gwala and Tulani.

MS MABASO: They've never been friends, they just met when they were going to commit this incident.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be the only witness one calls on behalf of the ...

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will not be calling any witnesses.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Firstly, I would like to point out ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you begin, none of you have said anything about membership of ANC and IFP, and I would like you to carry on with those enquiries and if any information comes available, you can let us have it in writing.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may just put on record what has been done so far. We managed to get hold of the Hammarsdale branch where the families indicate that they joined, however we've been told that the cards that they have are very old, the cards that now are being used show an expiry date and because these cards don't show an expiry date, they can't really tell when they joined. And the office that can be able to trace this through their records, would be the ANC provincial office here in Durban. What they've indicated is that these cards that the families have, were issued before - up to 1994, from 1995 onwards the system changed, but they will make a follow-up to this and they'll come back to us.

CHAIRPERSON: I have noticed that both cards seem ...(inaudible) ... It is possible they may have a record somewhere of when cards with these numbers were issued. But if you do get any information from the IFP or the ANC - I'm now addressing all the parties, they can let us have it in writing later.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, if I, just to also put on record, I have enquired from the families, they said they at present are issued with new cards although they're much smaller cards, but unfortunately they did not bring that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, new cards are not particularly relevant, the interest is whether they were at this time, members of the one or other. The fact that they may have joined the day before yesterday and got nice new little cards ...(inaudible) any further. It's when these old cards were issued that is relevant.

MR PANDAY: Just for advising the Committee, they do have the cards itself with them at present, that are copies made into the bundle of documents, but that's as far as it goes at this stage.

MR HARKOO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Firstly, I would like to point out at the very outset that it is not the policy and certainly wasn't the policy at the time, of the ANC or the UDF, to involve the killing of young children. However, it is submitted that the incident happened as an unfortunate circumstance, in the totality of the events that have taken place.

It is clear that during this period that violence was rife in the area. Be it political or be it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in the area, or was it between these two families or clans? We hadn't heard evidence of it being rife in the area, have we? We have heard evidence that between these two groups and members, families of these groups, violence was rife.

MR HARKOO: Yes, that is so, the violence was rife between the families. In some cases it may also relate to the issue of having to attend meetings, political meetings, as it was the case of Sibaningi Mabaso. There were the deaths of a number of people and it appeared to be an ongoing situation between, as the Chairperson said, the two families.

It would appear, to a large extent, that the Mabaso family had some association at least, with the IFP or the ZP, in that there were visits by Mr Moosa Zuma, if not to the Mabaso household itself, but at least to the persons that were related. He had a girlfriend that lived nearby. It was also the evidence of the family of the victim that at one stage she suspected that the applicant had thought that she or members of her family may have been responsible for the death of his father-in-law.

The applicant, although he was not an active member of the organisation, he in his evidence mentioned that he reported the incident to his uncle, who was a Commander in the area, and that it was on this advice, if not an instruction, but at least on advice, that he gathered these persons to help him. In so doing he believed that the Mabaso family was the family that was responsible for a number of deaths that occurred in the preceding weeks and that he intended ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is why he killed them, because they were responsible for these deaths. So he got a gang together to pay them back. Understandable, but that does not comply with the provisions of the Act.

MR HARKOO: I do agree with the Chairperson, I will leave that in the hands of the Commission itself. Suffice to say that it's the applicant's submission or version or thinking at the time, that the Mabaso families were in fact supporters, if not members at least, of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that was not - no political objective was to be achieved, was it?

MR HARKOO: My hands are tied, Mr Chairman, and apart from the fact that I'm obliged to put the version of the applicant through to the Commission ...

CHAIRPERSON: We understand your problem, you have ...(inaudible - no microphone)

MR HARKOO: Apart from that I leave the rest in the hands of the Commission.

MR PANDAY IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, seeing that my learned friend's hands are tied, I don't know whether I should keep my hands free. But nonetheless.

Mr Chairman, what we've had here is a whole lot of mud slinging, put very correctly, it's one ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well what we had here was quite clearly, on the evidence we've heard, which is I think is unchallenged, that there were killings on both sides of the fence. A number of people were killed, who were either members of, or connected with the clans of families on either side. There is no suggestion that there was any ordinary political objective to be obtained. It may or may not be that they were members of other parties. There's no evidence that that was indeed the driving factor ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: That is very well correct, Mr Chairman. And the applicant in his evidence as well, when giving evidence he himself was not able to give a calculated sequential order as to why these attacks ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think his witness, Mr Cele, put it very clearly as to what should have been done ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR PANDAY: It's quite obvious that the applicant didn't follow whatever steps, and that brings it purely back to ...(indistinct) it was personal, as opposed to anything being political.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - no microphone) got the guns from ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ... that he in fact got the guns from the Commander in the area. So that, I would assume that he had the approval of the Commander and he used the weapons supplied by the ANC, on an attack on the Mabaso male and adult female people.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I'd submit that this evidence be treated with great circumspect. The Commander in the area is a relative. Everything that boils down to the matter, boils down to relatives and friends, nothing boils down to organisations. Now surely if the applicant wants us to believe that his uncle was the Commander in the area, then very well the uncle himself would have directed him properly, at the very least, based on Mr Tulani Cele's evidence that the Executive would have had to have issued an instruction as to what had to be done. And this was not very well followed. Now I'd submit that that evidence itself be treated with great circumspect, and for one not to rely on the fact that the uncle was acting in his commanding capacity, but it ...(indistinct) that the uncle is also a relative. Now we don't know where to draw the line. And as such, the applicant himself says that he takes full responsibility for the attacks. Now we don't know whether the applicant was acting under orders or whether the applicant was acting as a member of a political party, protecting the interests of a political party. Which that, I must submit, is very - he's now asking us to stretch the elastic way beyond its fullest capacity, to draw that conclusion.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event none of this applies, does it, to the killing of little children?

MR PANDAY: That is also correct, Mr Chairman.

Having sight of that, Mr Chairman, I'd submit that the applicant is not a candidate to qualify for amnesty. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will not make any submission, I would like to leave this matter in your capable hands.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take time to consider our decision. But as I have said, if and when the information about membership or non-membership of the two political parties mentioned becomes available, we would be obliged if you'd let us have it. Because it may be possible to get some information from a prominent person who was there at the time, who knows who attended party meetings and matters of that kind and may remember seeing people. I'm not suggesting you should go and start interrogating everybody there, but there may be some member, when you start asking the party, who says: "But I was there at the time, I remember the meetings, that family was never there, or they were always there".

HEARING ADJOURNS