Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: This hearing today is scheduled to come to an end earlier than usual, because members of the Committee and other persons involved, have to travel and catch flights.

We won't have time to complete the evidence of a further applicant, but it has been agreed between the members of the panel and all the legal representatives, including Mr Mpshe, that because there are victims present, or next of kin of victims present here today, that Mr Khumalo will give evidence, but only evidence in chief, in respect of the incident relating to the death of Mr Zazi Khuzwayo.

This will be done for the interests of the persons or some of the persons who are present here this morning. Sorry will he be giving evidence Mr Mpshe, in respect of any other incident?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I feel my hands are always tied. It will have to be Zazi Khuzwayo and Pam Tsabalala, but my learned friend indicates that it won't be on Pam Tsabalala, so I am satisfied with Zazi Khuzwayo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe. And then what will be happening with the further conducting of this enquiry, is that from next week, the Committee will be sitting up in Richard's Bay where Mr Khumalo and the other applicants will be giving evidence, will be giving full evidence, in other words they will be testifying and they will be subject to questioning by legal representatives.

At this stage then, Mr Stuart will you be leading Mr Khumalo?

MR STUART: Quite so Mr Chairperson, if I might call him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

BEKHISISO ALEX KHUMALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, just for the record Mr Stuart, Mr Khumalo is Bekhisiso Alex Khumalo, who is the second applicant in these proceedings.

EXAMINATION BY MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Khumalo you were trained in the Caprivi, along with 200 or so other Inkatha supporters, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR STUART: And you gave evidence in the case of the S v Peter Msani, otherwise known as the Malan trial, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, it is true.

MR STUART: As you know, we are not going to deal today with on those aspects, the only thing we are dealing with now, is specifically the incident of the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo, do you understand that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

MR STUART: You have stated in your application that you were involved in that murder. Can I start off by asking you do you recall going to Mr Yamile's house to do some work there?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I remember.

MR STUART: How did it come about that you went to Mr Yamile's house?

MR KHUMALO: I will say that at that time, I was staying at the offices in Ulundi. Mhlanduna arrived with others and he asked if there are people, or whether there were people who wanted to go to Claremont to Mr Yamile's house and guard there because the situation was quite bad.

Mr Yamile needed guards. He said if there are volunteers, they would wait for Mr Yamile to arrive from a Central Committee meeting and he will take them with.

MR STUART: You mentioned Mhlanduna, is that the first applicant, Dalaqolo Luthuli?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is so.

MR STUART: You were saying that Mr Yamile was to take you to Claremont, did that transpire?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

MR STUART: Who was with you?

MR KHUMALO: Seboniso Mkhize and Bongo Msomi.

MR STUART: What were your duties at Mr Yamile's house in Claremont?

MR KHUMALO: It would be to guard the house.

MR STUART: Did you have other duties in addition to guarding?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there were other duties.

MR STUART: What were those duties?

MR KHUMALO: For example, if there is a troublesome person, who is perhaps a threat to Inkatha, we would assist in having him killed.

MR STUART: What was the political situation in Claremont at that time?

MR KHUMALO: It was quite bad to the extent that Mr Yamile's house had been bombed, not the house. Even when he travelled, he would be insulted and his car would be thrown at by stones.

MR STUART: Did Inkatha have much of a presence at Claremont at that time?

MR KHUMALO: It did not really exist at the time.

MR STUART: What was the relative strength of the UDF/ANC at Claremont at that time?

MR KHUMALO: It was very strong.

MR STUART: You say in your affidavit that there is a time when Mhlanduna came there and he had some discussions with Yamile indoors, which you were not part of and then he called you and some others to discuss this question of Zazi Khuzwayo, do you remember that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I remember.

MR STUART: Who was with you when he called you together?

MR KHUMALO: I was with Vela Nquno, Pumlani Mshengo, Spo Bengu.

MR STUART: What did Mhlanduna say to you?

MR KHUMALO: He told us that Mr Yamile is complaining that there is a certain man who is a threat to him, who supports the UDF in their endeavours to kill him and chase him out of Claremont to such an extent that this man was involved in a previous incident where Mr Yamile's car was bombed.

MR STUART: Who was this person that was mentioned?

MR KHUMALO: He said it was Zazi Khuzwayo.

MR STUART: Did you know this Zazi Khuzwayo?

MR KHUMALO: No, I did not know him personally or see his face, but I had heard about him.

MR STUART: What did Mhlanduna then say about this problem he had told you about?

MR KHUMALO: He said the four of us would go with Msisi who would show us where Zazi worked.

MR STUART: Do you know what the surname of this Msisi that you have mentioned?

MR KHUMALO: It is Hlope.

MR STUART: Approximately how old was Msisi Hlope at that time? ... (tape ends) ... or shocked when you were asked to be involved in the murder of someone?

MR KHUMALO: No, I was not.

MR STUART: Why not?

MR KHUMALO: I was not because it was my duty that if there is a person or persons who threatened the Inkatha Freedom Party, I should help in their removal.

MR STUART: You, I interrupted you when you mentioned that Msisi Hlope was going to identify Zazi Khuzwayo, what then transpired?

MR KHUMALO: At that time, Mhlanduna gave Pumlani Mshengo and Spo Bengu a .38 Special gun. I and Vela had 9 mm pistols.

He then showed us a car that we were going to use and said the car will be driven by Hleganpani Yamile.

MR STUART: What is the relationship between Hleganpani Yamile and Samuel Yamile?

MR KHUMALO: Hleganpani was Yamile's son.

MR STUART: What was the car that you were to travel in?

MR KHUMALO: It was a hearse.

MR STUART: Did you then do as instructed?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is so.

MR STUART: What transpired?

MR KHUMALO: We left Yamile's house and rode and parked outside the post office. The post office was closed to Mr Khuzwayo's shop.

MR STUART: I am going to interrupt you, can you recount for us exactly who was with you when you went in the hearse?

MR KHUMALO: It was Hleganpani Yamile, him being the driver, Msisi Hlope, myself, Pumlani Mshengo and Spo Bengu and Vela Nquno.

MR STUART: Had it been planned what exactly you would do on arriving at the place where you parked?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is so.

MR STUART: What was the plan?

MR KHUMALO: The plan was that Msisi since we didn't know Mr Khuzwayo, Msisi will go into the shop and check if he is there.

If he was present at the shop, Msisi will come and inform us of his whereabouts in the shop. Then Pumlani Mshengo and Spo Bengu would go inside the shop and shoot him.

I and Vela Nquno would be used for back up.

MR STUART: That was the plan, now tell us what happened?

MR KHUMALO: When we parked outside the post office, Msisi got out of the car as planned and went to check inside the shop. He returned and told us that everything was okay.

Because we had agreed that if he was there, he would be in his office. We got out of the car and Msisi disappeared. Then we went separately into the shop. I and Vela were the first ones to go in and pretended to be buying something.

At that time, Pumlani Mshengo and Spo Bengu appeared, passed us and then disappeared. At that, when they passed us, we went to position ourselves by the entrance. I then heard gunshots. After that Pumlani and Spo emerged, passed us and then we followed them.

When we left this place, when we already on the street, I heard gunshots behind me. When I looked back, I saw Vela's gun pointing upwards, then I realised that he was shooting in the air and I proceeded.

Before I got to the car, I also heard gunshots. I turned back, but I couldn't see anything. I was the last one to get into the car. We then agreed that we should go straight to Mpumalanga.

We then arrived at Mpumalanga and I am not sure who amongst us phoned Yamile's house to inform them that everything had gone well.

MR STUART: If I can interrupt you Mr Khumalo, where about in Mpumalanga did you go to, to someone's house?

MR KHUMALO: We went to a certain house although I can't remember whether it was Lieutenant Macatini's house or Mrs Quno's house at Woodyglen.

MR STUART: Why did you go to one or either of those houses?

MR KHUMALO: Pumlani Mshengo and Spo Bengu used to stay at Mrs Quno's house. As regards to Macatini, the car that we were using, I heard that it belonged to him.

MR STUART: You said that one or other of you phoned back to Yamile's house to report. What was the response which was received from Yamile's house?

MR KHUMALO: Even though I am not the one who made the call, I heard that they will try means of fetching us. We were eventually fetched, although I don't remember who collected us.

MR STUART: And did you return to Claremont?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, Vela, myself and Hleganpani. Spo and Pumlani remained at Mpumalanga.

MR STUART: Did you see Samuel Yamile on returning to Claremont?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I did.

MR STUART: Did he speak with you?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, he spoke to us.

MR STUART: What did he say to you?

MR KHUMALO: He was happy and said that we had done a good job for him and he shook our hands.

MR STUART: Did he give you anything?

MR KHUMALO: If I remember correctly, he gave me R100-00 and said it was a gift to thank us.

MR STUART: Mr Khumalo, you are aware that Mrs Khuzwayo is here today. Do you have anything to say to her about this murder of Zazi Khuzwayo?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

MR STUART: What do you have to say?

MR KHUMALO: I would like to say to Mrs Khuzwayo and relatives of the family, and those who were affected by his death, I ask for their forgiveness. I know that it is difficult, but at the time I did not do this voluntarily.

I was compelled by the political situation at the time. I do wish today that maybe there was another way that even if Mr Khuzwayo was an IFP enemy, I wish there was another way in which he could have been dealt with without killing him.

MR STUART: That is the evidence, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Thank you Mr Khumalo.

As I said earlier, at this stage we are just leading by consent of Mr Khumalo and with the agreement of people present here, the evidence in chief relating just to the incident relating to the death of Mr Khuzwayo.

Cross-examination on that incident will of course be allowed when Mr Khumalo gives evidence later, and in fact when he gives evidence later, he will also be free to repeat again what he has said here today.

That then brings the proceedings here at an end.

MR STUART: Mr Chairperson, sorry to interrupt, just in regard to Mr Mpshe's question earlier about the attempted murder of Pam Tsabalala.

I notice there is still a little time, if I could be given just one minute to confer with the applicant, it may be that we can deal in the same fashion with that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have no objection to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if we could do that, I see that there is some time, so perhaps we can take a short adjournment and then if you could let us know Mr Stuart and Mr Mpshe, what the situation is, thank you.

We will take a short adjournment.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

BEKHISISO ALEX KHUMALO: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Lead then with regard to the incident relating to the attempt on Mrs Tsabalala, thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR STUART: (continued) Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Khumalo, we are now going to deal with the incident as it has been said, of the attempted murder of Mrs Pam Tsabalala, do you recall that incident? You explain in your affidavit that before that took place, you were collected from Mpumalanga and taken to Claremont, do you remember that. Who fetched you from Mpumalanga?

CHAIRPERSON: There is an interference on the sound system.

MR STUART: Okay, Mr Khumalo, you said that Mhlanduna fetched you. Who else was with you when you went to Claremont?

MR KHUMALO: It was Zweli Dhlamini, Dan Molefe. Those two are the ones that I remember.

MR STUART: Where did you go to in Claremont?

MR KHUMALO: We went to Mr Yamile's house.

MR STUART: At the time of going there, did you know that you would be subsequently going to attempt to murder Pam Tsabalala?

MR KHUMALO: Even though I did not know what we were supposed to do, but I knew there was something that we were going to be doing.

MR STUART: Who told you and when were you told what it was that you had to do?

MR KHUMALO: When we arrived at Mr Yamile's house, Mhlanduna came and told us that Mr Yamile wanted us to kill Mrs Pam Tsabalala for him.

MR STUART: Was it explained to you why Mrs Tsabalala should be killed?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, it was said that because she was also involved in the UDF.

MR STUART: Did you know her?

MR KHUMALO: No, I did not know her, but I had heard about her.

MR STUART: What had you heard about her?

MR KHUMALO: I heard that she was active in the UDF and was opposing the existence of Inkatha and Mr Yamile's presence in Claremont.

MR STUART: In what way was it planned that she would be murdered?

MR KHUMALO: We would kill her when she went or when she left her shop in the evening.

MR STUART: What did you then do to put that plan into operation?

MR KHUMALO: When Mhlanduna dropped us, just before we went into the shop, a police truck came by in the opposite direction. We couldn't go into the shop at that time, because even if we had proceeded, there was this police truck around.

Mrs Tsabalala and others went into a car and the car drove off and passed near us, where we stood.

When they passed, one of us fired. I also fired but I couldn't see who else was firing their gun.

MR STUART: Did you see whether anyone was hit?

MR KHUMALO: I couldn't see because the car drove off, it sped off.

MR STUART: Did you subsequently hear whether anyone was hit?

MR KHUMALO: No, I didn't hear anything.

MR STUART: Is it likely given the circumstances, that someone was hit?

MR KHUMALO: It is difficult to say.

MR STUART: That is the evidence Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Stuart.

That then brings this phase of the hearing to an end. We will now adjourn and as I said earlier, we will reconvene on Tuesday, immediately after the Easter weekend at Richard's Bay. The venue where we will be at, at Richard's Bay is called the Zululand Chamber of Business Foundation. It is in the Z.C.B.F. Community Park in Richard's Bay.

We will commence the proceedings there on Tuesday, only in the afternoon. I am advised that it takes some time to set up in the hall and in addition certain people will also only be arriving from their destinations at Richard's Bay during the course of the morning, or even in the early afternoon, so we will start there at half past two or so soon thereafter as is possible at the Zululand Chamber of Business Foundation Hall in Richard's Bay on next Tuesday. Thank you.

Sorry, before we adjourn, I would just like to thank all those persons who made this hearing possible. First of all I would like to thank the church for the provision of the hall, it was a very nice venue. I would also like to thank the caterers who catered teas and lunches for us, it was very nice indeed.

For the people who worked the sound system and indeed for everybody else associated with the hearing here in Durban, thank you very much indeed.

We will now adjourn.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS UNTIL 14-04-1998