Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. We're proceeding with the evidence of Mr Mkhize who is still giving evidence in chief. Mr Wills, are you ready to start?

MR WILLS: I am, yes thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MKHIZE (suo)

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (cont)

Mr Mkhize, you will recall that yesterday we were dealing with incidents that you were involved with on the instruction of Chief Mathaba. We had dealt with the murder of the Cosatu bus driver and now I want to turn to the incident which is on pg 119 of the record and para 89 of your affidavit and that concerns the murder of an ANC nduna. Can you tell the Committee and members of the public present what you know about this incident?

MR MKHIZE: As I have explained in previous incidents, I got instructions from Chief Mathaba who was a member of the IFP Central Committee, and at that time was a member of the Kwazulu Legislator. He gave me an instruction that there was an nduna amongst many of his ndunas whom he required that I and my group kill urgently. He informed me that this nduna is very problematic to the IFP. Because firstly he is mobilising a campaign against the carrying of traditional weapons.

I think the Commission knows that traditional weapons were associated with the IFP, because the IFP is mainly built on Zulu cultures. Therefore a person who was against people who are members of the public, particularly Zulus, for them to practice their culture, carrying of traditional weapons, that person was assumed to be against the Zulu culture and also against the IFP as an organisation that was mainly practising this culture.

He said this nduna was so problematic that he was mobilising people not to attend meetings that were organised by him. Such meetings that he would call as the Inkozi of the area or meetings that he would call as a central committee member of the IFP. This nduna was encouraging people not to attend these meetings organised by Chief Mathaba.

He also mentioned that this nduna is a certain leader within the ANC, but not in his own area. I was confused as to if he resides in the chief's area and is not a leader in that area, who is leader? In which area is he a leader from? But I couldn't ask such questions at that time because you have to respect Inkozi and not ask too many questions. This is in line with the way that we are brought up. So I did not ask that kind of questions. But he pointed out that this nduna should be killed immediately.

MR WILLS: Yes. If I could just interrupt Mr Mkhize, you've indicated in your affidavit that certain persons were with you and those are Mr Zwele Dlamini, who I think is the third applicant in these proceedings. Then Mr Israil Fangwane and Jerry Ndanda. But you've subsequently discovered that you've made a mistake with regard to one of those persons. Can you explain that to the committee please and correct this mistake?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I discovered that I made a mistake. When I mentioned the numbers that I was with, I also counted Zwele Dlamini in. I apologize for this. Maybe it's because I was involved in a lot of incidents with these people. And because this was a long time ago, I cannot quite recall the people who were specifically there in a certain operation. But I think this is just one of the very few mistakes that I've made. Zwele Dlamini was not present in this operation, but the person who was there was his brother, Zwele who was stationed at the Esikhawini police station. Not Zwele Dlamini.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Can you tell us how this murder was carried out?

MR MKHIZE: We used a VW Golf from Esikhawini which was driven by Jerry Ndanda. He is now deceased. Jerry Ndanda had previously been an ANC member who had been trained in the MK and he subsequently defected to the IFP. There are many operations that he carried out. But then he concentrated on this one.

I was with Jerry and Israil and Zwele Dlamini's brother and myself. And we went to Chief Mathaba's house at noon.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mkhize. What is Zwele Dlamini's brother's name? Do you know?

MR MKHIZE: Chairperson, I have forgotten his name. But he is his brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR MKHIZE: We then went to Chief Mathaba. We knocked on the door. He opened it and as planned at Mrs Mbuyazi, he let us in. The Chief then asked one of his ndunas who was also his praise singer, Manxele - his surname is Manxele, I don't know his first name. Because we didn't know where this nduna that we were supposed to kill, resided.

We then left the VW Golf that we had been travelling in and got into another car, Chief Mathaba's car, the Toyota Cressida. We got into the car. We were armed and Manxele showed us a place, a sugarcane field where we parked the car. We went through the sugarcane field on foot with Manxele.

He then pointed out the house to us where this nduna stayed. His name was Mzimela. We asked about the situation in the nduna's house and he showed us the room or the hut where he slept. Manxele had information that the nduna slept alone in his hut and indeed, we found him alone. The house that the nduna slept in was a two-roomed hut. And there were other huts around it.

We knocked on the door and the nduna responded from inside and inquired as to who we were. We told him that we are police and we want to search the hut. He refused to open the door for us because the situation wasn't safe and we asked him why is it not safe, and he told us that there is a rumour, a bad rumour around the place and he wouldn't open the door; we should come back the following morning.

We begged the nduna - myself doing that - assuring him that I was a policeman; we just wanted to search the hut because we had information that he had weapons in the hut. He then looked through the window. He wanted us to show our appointment certificates that we are indeed policemen. I had agreed to do this.

He opened the curtain to really ascertain that we were indeed policemen. As he was doing this, Zwele's brother fired a shot. The shots missed the nduna but it hit on the edge of the window. When Zwele hit the edge of the window, he hit a wooden edge of the window which caught fire and the curtain also caught fire.

We realized that the people in the other huts would identify us and were then forced to kick the door open; and we did this.

There could be something that I'm forgetting. We had been informed that the nduna had guns in his hut, and we did believe that he had them, although we didn't see the guns. Because when he was refusing to open the door, we heard a noise inside and we thought that he was readying his guns. And when he wanted to see our certificates, there was a noise like a gun being loaded. But when we got inside the hut we didn't have time to check if there were really guns inside the hut.

Because when we kicked the door open Zwele's brother stepped inside first. He was carrying a shotgun, carrying it at the ready. As he entered the nduna grabbed the shotgun and they struggled, and we couldn't get any closer because it had become dark. The fire had turned out.

We didn't know how to get any closer because they were fighting, both grabbing the gun and we didn't know if one of them was going to squeeze the trigger at any time. So we didn't know what to do.

As they were fighting, Israil Fangwane went down on all fours, crawling towards them. And he went behind the chief and shot him in the head at close range. The nduna fell down and then Zwele Dlamini's brother and Israil fired several shots at him.

After that we didn't look for the guns which were supposedly in a trunk. We just fled.

In that pandemonium a shot was fired and Israil thought that he had been hit on the knee. It appeared later that he wasn't really hit, but his jean was. When we left the scene we were carrying him to go to the car because we thought he had been hit.

When we got into the car, we sped off. When we arrived at Chief Mathaba's house and there was light, we realized that he was not hit.

We then told the Inkozi that we had done our job well and we got into Jerry's car and we left quickly because we were afraid that the police might be called at any time.

MR WILLS: Were any of you prosecuted or arrested in connection with this matter?

MR MKHIZE: No, none of us was prosecuted or arrested for that crime. As usual I made a report after the instruction had been carried out to Captain (indistinct).

MR WILLS: Just incidently, was Jerry Ndanda, a Caprivi training?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not trained by us but by the African National Congress.

MR WILLS: Yes. I want you to turn now to pg 120, your para 91 concerning a matter which essentially amounts to you obstructing the course of justice in relation to the releasing of persons found in the unlawful possession of fire-arms. If you could just briefly go through this incident.

MR MKHIZE: I was patrolling the area as a policeman. I was near J2 and I heard gunshots from H2. I was with W/O Mhlango in the car. Using a ZP886. When we heard gunshots from the H2 section we proceeded there. As we were approaching the main road near Esikhawini Training College we came towards the Gondana bus stop. As we approached there we saw two vans parked there, and there was a crowd of people.

There were people who were apparently arrested and we enquired about what was going on. The unit that was patrolling around that area was headed by Sgt Bethuebjele. And he explained to us that they had caught this group of people who had weapons, guns.

We enquired as to who these people were and nobody seemed to know. And these people also didn't want to say who they were.

As we heard gunshots it appeared that these people had been trying to run away from the police, but the police pursued them and caught them. Although I don't remember quite well how many they were; there could have been three or four.

I grabbed one of them and asked him who they were and where they were from; they should talk quickly so that there was a tense political situation in the area. If they don't talk, they might be in trouble. I managed to convince this person and eventually he told me that as they were there, they were not residents but they were from Johannesburg. And that they had come to Mrs Mbuyazi's house from Johannesburg. And their purpose for being there - I enquired why they were carrying guns and he told me that they were with some other boy.

I asked if they had been going to attack some place and he denied that. I then called W/O Mhlambo to the site as well as Sgt Vyela. And we discussed that if they were coming from Mrs Mbuyazi's house, they must be IFP members. So we couldn't arrest them.

Mhlambo and Vyela agreed with me, although they were not very active IFP members. We agreed that because there were a lot of police in the area, we couldn't trust the police who were there. We agreed with these two men, Vyela and Mhlambo that we will take the guns and the people and pretend that we are going to the police station to arrest them or to charge them. And Sgt Vyela will take the other group of policemen and continue patrolling H2 section.

This we did. We proceeded to J1. We passed Mrs Mbuyazi's house and we dropped them off at a bottle store somewhere near there and we took the guns and we went back to Mrs Mbuyazi's house and we enquired about this matter. And she was very shocked. We asked her if she knew these people and she said yes.

And she told us that these people had been brought by Themba Khoza from Johannesburg. So I asked her why she didn't inform me about this matter. Because these people will just carry out operations and they may be attacked by us or they may indeed attack us by mistake.

So she apologized for this and enquired where they were at the moment. So we told her that we had released them, although we had kept their guns with us. I fetched the guns from the car and I gave them to her. I told her that those people were on their way.

I think I'm confusing this a bit. I think the guns were given to Sgt Vyela who was supposed to bring them later. I'm not really sure. But what I do know is that eventually the guns were given to Mrs Mbuyazi. I'm not sure whether I brought them or Sgt Vyela brought them.

But we discussed this matter with Mrs Mbuyazi at that time, and she confirmed that Themba Khoza had brought these people. Because when there was an IFP rally at Esikhawini and the ANC attacked this rally, one person died. And this person who had died was not from Natal, but from Johannesburg and he was one of the people who had been from Johannesburg.

So these people from Johannesburg were very angry and wanted to retaliate to the ANC for killing one of their members. That was their mission. But we and my group didn't know about it until I spoke Mrs Mbuyazi about it.

The reason I have mentioned this is because it was a crime. It was illegal for us to release these people because we were defeating the ends of justice. Because it could be that the police that we found at the scene could have arrested those people. And the guns should have been returned to the Government, but this didn't happen. Nobody was prosecuted and I don't remember reporting this crime to anyone.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Mkhize, I see that you're giving evidence which is different to what is in your statement in regard to this incident. I want you to refer to para 91 where you indicate in that paragraph that you were advised by Mrs Mbuyazi that these people would be coming. And in your evidence you've indicated that it was only after the arrest of these people that you were advised by Mrs Mbuyazi. Can you remember which of these versions is correct and if so, just indicate. If you can't remember, just indicate to the Committee that you can't remember.

MR MKHIZE: I do remember. I'll just explain one thing: Chairperson, when I make these statements it is a similar situation as to the proceedings here. You write these statements for an entire day and days on end. And you sit there for an entire day and you try to remember all these incidents that happened so long ago. I think that when I wrote this I was a bit tired. So that I said that I had been informed about these people beforehand. I don't think this is so. As far as I remember I think I saw them for the first time at the scene with the police who had apprehended them. I think when I made the statement I must have been a bit tired by that time because we were doing this for the entire day and for days on end.

MR WILLS: Mr Mkhize, I just want to confirm that the weapons that were involved were two AK-47 rifles and one shotgun and another rifle that was unknown to you. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Mkhize, that concludes the evidence as far as the incidents and the unlawful activities that you were directly involved in. I want to turn now to the collateral issues surrounding these incidents, and particularly I want you to concentrate on the equipment that you used. And you've briefly described in para 95 about how your weapons were stored. You've indicated that they were kept locked in a steel trunk which was kept in Romeo's house and because Romeo's house was searched it was moved to another house which got the name "the Snake Park". I want you to tell me who supplied you with weapons, and what these weapons were to the best of your knowledge. You've only indicated so far - right in the beginning of your evidence - that you got weapons from a certain Mr Thomas Buthelezi from Port Dunford. But it's clear from your evidence that a lot more weapons than one AK-47 and one stainless steel shotgun were used. Can you describe to the Committee to the best of your knowledge where you got these weapons from, and what weapons they were?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Chair, our syndicate ended up having lots and lots of weapons. I have already explained that I was instructed by Capt Langeni from Ulundi to go to Port Dunford to pick up some of these arms from Mr Thomas Buthelezi who was in charge of the camp. And I also got hold of several bullets.

And some of the weapons, like hand grenades, I also still remember that there was something at Esikhawini at the time because there was Mr Khumalo who was in assistance of Inkatha. He too sent me to fetch some of the hand grenades at the camp. And some arms came with Joyful Mthethwa. I am not quite sure where he got these arms, but I must also state that I indicated yesterday that at the time when we were forming this hit squad Joyful Mthethwa was one of the people to whom I was referred for assistance. So that arms and guns such as Scorpions came with him from Nseleni.

There is one particular gun, an AK rifle that was collected by Romeo from Mrs Mbuyazi, and it too became part of the arms cache that we had.

We also raided homes, some of which we already knew that they had guns. We would not arrest those people during the raids; we would simply take the guns so that they could be used by the syndicate.

We really confiscated several guns, including shotguns. And the guns that we received later on were the ones that were taken by Romeo and Constable Mthethwa. And these guns came from J1; two pistols and one AK. And by so doing the number of guns that we had accumulated. I brought also one from Maritzburg. This came from some people that I knew. But that is not included in my affidavit; that there is a gun that I brought from Maritzburg. And this became part of the arms cache. And we ended up having lots and lots of guns. And we kept these guns in a trunk which was at Romeo's house which we referred to as "12", that is the trunk. Because "13" is a place where they used to keep exhibits at the police station. So we referred to Romeo's place as "12".

And this is how we would communicate, pertaining to the obtaining of fire-arms. And that is basically how we accumulated these guns.

MR WILLS: (Indistinct) that you had certain dealings with some Inkatha Youth and by them I refer to Nkanalipho Mtenjwa, Lucky Mbuyazi and Syabonga Mbuyazi. Now you've indicated in para 96 that they conducted certain attacks as well in Esikhawini against ANC members in your absence, and that you had nothing to do with these attacks. And you've indicated in your affidavit that they reported to you a particular incident when one time during 1993 they conducted an attack where 11 people were killed at a shebeen, or near a shebeen. Sorry, I'm just going to check that if the Commission will bear with me. I'm not sure about the number, but they conducted attacks which involved the killing of many people in your absence. Now you indicate that you had nothing to do with those particular attacks. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you're obviously aware that there are a number of community members and leaders from Esikhawini who have shown a great interest in these proceedings and are here today and have been here since this hearing started in Richards Bay. Now you would obviously be prepared to answer any question and relate to them any knowledge you have relating to these attacks, even though you yourself were not involved. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I would say to the community as I have explained yesterday, we are prepared to regurgitate, expose all the truth between the fighting pertaining to the ANC and the IFP so that it should be known who did what to who, when. And therefore I am prepared to answer any question whether it comes from the community or whoever. If I knew something about those incidents I would expose all the truth and if I was involved in an incident, I would say so.

I am actually expecting all sorts of questions which I am prepared to answer.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Now Mr Luthuli has given evidence about his involvement in the plans to basically assist you to evade arrest when it became evident that you were going to be arrested. But prior to that there was an incident which I think is relevant for the Committee's purposes, whereby you were transferred to Nquthu police station from Esikhawini. Now was this a normal transfer, or can you explain how it came about?

MR MKHIZE: I would explain. Yes, I was transferred under abnormal circumstances. Normal channels were not used. I was located where I was, and I was told that Brig Mzimela wanted to see me. Brig Mzimela told me that I am being transferred. I asked him where, and he said he didn't know. He wanted to know which police station I wanted to go to, and I wondered how it came about that he doesn't know where I am being transferred. He gave me an option to choose.

I asked him why I was being transferred and he indicated that there is a person by the name of Melville who was an advocate. He has sent a fax to the fact that I should be transferred with immediate effect. And I had to be transferred immediately. I didn't know why. And he then indicated that I was being investigated, but I would not be investigated if I would still be around because I would interfere with evidence and people were scared of speaking out whilst I was still around.

And I wondered if there was not any other way they could stop this. And he indicated that the high authority has already made a decision to the effect of my transfer to Nquthu. Because I also had a house at Dundee and therefore Nquthu would be nearer home. And there was no ZP station at Dundee. And I therefore agreed to be transferred, even though we differed quite a lot.

And later that evening I took whatever belongings I could and concluded that I would come later to pick up the rest, and I was then taken to Nquthu that night. I was ferried in State vehicles. That's how I was transferred.

MR WILLS: It's correct that Adv Neville Melville was in fact the police reporting officer in Kwazulu Natal at that time. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: I think that your arrest and the circumstances surrounding your arrest have been covered by Mr Luthuli and I don't think that it's important at this stage to get into that. There's just one area which we need to cover. You were arrested on the 18th of August 1993 and you were detained in the Empangeni police cells. It was Sydney Croucamp from the South African Police who had arrested you. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you phoned Maj Langeni and informed him about your arrest whilst you were in those cells. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now what became of these promises that you had and that you've given evidence of? When you initially commenced these operations you indicated that you were promised by very senior persons in the IFP like MZ Khumalo, Major Langeni, Gideon Zulu that you would be protected and supported in the event of your arrest. Can you explain to the Committee?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Chairperson, shortly this might be one of the most serious sacrifices, but I am just happy that it gave me an opportunity to clear my conscience. But I am very hurt because I see myself as a fool who failed to do proper calculations timeously. I could have used my energy to do something else. Maybe I would be having lots of money today; maybe I'll be someone prominent within the community, but not the criminal as I am being referred to by the IFP today. I struggled because of the IFP beliefs. And I recruited other people into the same struggle; people like Romeo. People whom I recruited from the police force where they were honestly working.

I struggled so that people could be freed from the white man's oppression. This was a wrong way of struggling because the people with whom I was struggling, following their instructions in particular, are not anywhere near me today. And they never were since I landed in trouble and these very same poor souls that I recruited into the problem. And they never kept their promises.

Everybody who was engaged in the struggle in this country, are proud of having engaged in their struggle. For example, look at the PAC and the ANC. They are proud about the fact that they were engaged in the struggle that liberated their country. In my case many people died and I cannot take pride in that kind of a struggle. And I am very shameful and I am also shameful thinking about my children. I am shameful about that.

And I was deserted, and they denied knowing me. And I smelled as I am smelling now. It upset me to hear from the media what insults came from IFP leaders referring to us as having conducted our own criminal activities. I swear here before the Commission that there is no personal benefit that was... [end of side 1]...have. If I wanted a State car, I could get it any time. Things like those.

And my personal things. For example, one day I wanted R2 300 to go and pay for my house at Dundee. A house that I had just bought. They easily gave me the money and I did not pay it back. And it was not even indicated that I should pay it back. Things like that.

Yes, I received certain help. If I wanted to move furniture or things from one place to another they could easily provide State trucks to my disposal. Those are the kind of things that I can claim as having gained. And those are the sorts of things that motivated me to continue with the kind of struggle in which I was engaged.

But there is nothing that I can indicate as having profited from. It is therefore very sad that a person can be engaged in this sort of a struggle. The IFP leaders are denying knowledge of us. They don't know us.

I find it very strange that I went to Caprivi. How did I know about Caprivi? Where did I get finance to go to Caprivi for training?

They are also refusing or denying the training that was going on at Caprivi. Point to me any chief around here whose bodyguards are using rocket launches. I know not of any. But we were using all these sorts of things; explosives, cortex, fuses and all sorts of things; beehives. And we were trained so that we could guard the chiefs and heads. Explosives were used in the training so that we could guard these people.

I swear that during my training we used all sorts of weapons except for any legal South African made rifle. We were using Eastern Block weapons. God knows all about that. Maybe one day the truth will surface.

What I can say here, I have committed and dedicated myself, be it any probe or form. I am dedicated to say exactly what I am saying here. I know what I am saying, that this places me in danger. Because I am still going to talk. This is as good as sacrificing my life after having killed so many people.

I know that I am still going to talk, even if there is any investigation that will come later, regardless of who is going to be affected or arrested. I want the truth to out that I am not a criminal. I am prepared to testify.

I am not therefore saying that I would like to see justice being done. I would actually like to see justice being done in the country to cleanse my name, and these gentlemen with whom I am arrested and everybody who is in the same predicament as myself. So that finally the community should know that we were not criminals. This is how we worked.

This is what I wish to say.

MR WILLS: Yes. Mr Mkhize, just before we go off that subject, you were sitting in Westville Prison and after a few years you were approached by some senior IFP persons and the message or the discussions that they had with you concerned your application to the amnesty committee. Can you just describe what happened in those circumstances to the Committee please?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I can explain that. After being sentenced and sent to Westville Prison there came the Colonel who was in charge of the prison, together with his Lieutenant. He called me and Romeo Mbambo and Israil Fangwane saying there is a Minister who wanted to see us. We were taken therefore from our cells and we went to Level 1. We went down from Level 5 to Level 1 and we were driven in a van from Medium B going to the Commanding Officer's office, Mr De Beer.

And on arrival there, there was Dr Sipho Mzimela, the Minister of Correctional Services who was with his wife and his bodyguards. De Beer himself was present. We exchanged greetings and we took our seats.

I still remember that at that time with my co-accused we had made an application that we wanted to be sent to the Maritzburg Prison. The first thing that we discussed with Dr Mzimela was why do we want to go to Maritzburg. And we explained to him further. And he ended up advising that it was not safe to go to Maritzburg because in the first place that jail is dominated by Popcru which is regarded as the police union which is shaking hands or rubbing shoulders with the ANC. De Beer himself also indicated that Westville was fine for us, because they would make sure that we are protected. It would not be the same as Maritzburg, because Maritzburg is a Popcru dominated area.

Secondly we discussed the issue of visits. The grading, such as D group and depending on one's behaviour, the grading would proceed that way. But if a person is under a group, such a person would get better privileges. And all of those things are things that we discussed. And we promised that we would behave so that we can get better grades to get visits and better privileges. Because a person would under normal circumstances not be allowed to have more than five visitors per month.

And we finally agreed that we would not be transferred to Maritzburg; we would wait until Romeo came back from Nelspruit. Because Romeo was supposed to go to Nelspruit; he was supposed to have left the previous day, but he did not go. He was supposed to attend a certain trial at Nelspruit. And it was indicated that a final decision as to the transfer to Maritzburg would be made as soon as Romeo came back and we agreed on this.

Dr Sipho Mzimela who is Minister of the Correctional Services, and he was an IFP minister at the time and also holding a high position as a Deputy General Secretary for Inkatha nationally, and he requested that the white officers excuse us so that we could discuss as a family and the four of us remained; Israil, Fangwane, Mzimela and so on.

The first thing that we discussed was finding a way of getting out of prison. We wanted to know what the position was regarding that. And secondly we discussed the TRC.

With reference to the TRC Dr Mzimela indicated where the IFP stood, and he did not mince his words. He indicated that they were first of all not involved in the formation of the TRC and therefore they were not towing that line. And he indicated that the TRC is nothing but the political ploy of the ANC to get their enemy. And also that they knew that - that was '95 at the time; the TRC has not started yet, but it was known that the TRC was underway. But it hadn't started working at the time. And Dr Mzimela indicated that the TRC is just but an ANC wing which was to be used to undermine the integrity of all organisations they were opposed to; organisations like the IFP and therefore they were not in favour of the TRC idea.

And it transpired that this would place us in a difficult position. We started wondering as to whether we should submit our application to the TRC or not. And Dr Mzimela started asking as to whether our names were included in the list of the IFP. And he started to make a call. We don't know who he was calling at the office, but he seemed to be speaking to his secretary. And he wanted to establish through the computer as to whether our names were included in the list of the IFP for those people who were implicated in political activities.

And apparently it transpired that our names were not included in the list, and therefore our names had to be included in the list. Things such as our names, prison numbers, dates of sentences and so forth; charges for which we were sentenced. And we gave him all this information and he gave this information in turn to the person with whom he was speaking on the phone. And he instructed that files be made ready. He was going to check them as soon as he got to his office.

And he promised us that they were going to do something about our release. And that was the last we saw of him. We never hear of him from then on.

MR WILLS: (Indistinct) the implication of your evidence is that what he was going to do about your release did not involve the TRC. Am I correct in assuming that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it wouldn't involve the TRC because he had already mentioned that the IFP was against the existence of the TRC. So what he was going to do wouldn't involve the TRC.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Mr Mkhize, just finally to clarify one aspect of your evidence before you conclude. We've heard the evidence of Mr Luthuli who indicated that when you were given orders by persons in authority over you, you had to obey those orders unquestionably and you conducted or you executed those orders without questioning them. Now does the same apply - as I understand your position, you also were in a position of authority in that you were the local commander of what I think the media has called the Esikhawini Hit Squad. Now you were in charge of certain people, for example Mr Mbambo, certain instances Mr Zwele Dlamini, Mr Fangwane and others. Does the same apply - if you were to give those persons an order, were they obliged to follow it in the same way as you were obliged to follow orders that you received from your superiors?

MR MKHIZE: There was no other option that they had. They had to execute that instruction as was if they wanted to stay alive.

MR WILLS: Finally Mr Mkhize, we've heard over the last five or six days, particularly in the last two days, a tail of horror, murder and brutality that you were integrally involved in. Now there's many people here who've come to hear what you've got to say. What have you got to say to them?

MR MKHIZE: Chairperson, it is difficult for me to say anything to the community of Esikhawini. The good thing though is that the community of Esikhawini knows what was going on in this area. And although other things were done covertly, the community know about them but they just couldn't talk about them at the time because of the situation.

I indicated or spoke yesterday and tried to convey how committed I am to reconciliation with the members or next of kin of the people that I killed, and also with the community that I traumatised.

I would like to say this before I go any further: that it should be well known that what is being alleged now, that I have joined the ANC is not true. They should rather say that now I can see clearly. They shouldn't say that I have joined the ANC. Or maybe that what I am saying today is because I have joined the ANC or want to join the ANC.

I and the other people that are here today, we know it very well that we have killed ANC members and we know how painful that is to the ANC. We know that there are people who were hurt by what we did to their family members. Therefore we think that what we are doing here, will enable them to forgive us at some point.

Our main objective is to let them know what happened to their family members and for them to forgive us, and for us to reconcile.

Finally I would like to say that mistakes such as these should not happen again in the future. Our present government should not find itself in the same situation. And the youth should also not fall into the same trap of being manipulated like myself and be used and exploited by people in positions of authority in the community. This will help the youth not to fall into such a trap. It will also help people to forgive us.

I realize that if I say that I am sorry, or if I say that forgive me, it would be insufficient. I am as good as having said nothing because that will not bring these people back. I mentioned yesterday that there are orphans who grow without their fathers, because we are responsible for those people's death. This is something we'll carry with us to the grave.

I mentioned yesterday that my apology will not help the families of people like the Mkwana as a family. It will not help them financially; it will not help them in their socio-economic situation. We are very hurt and deeply sorry about this.

We are very committed to seeing justice done. We are also committed to see that reconciliation takes place. If it the duty of this Commission to effect reconciliation, we request that the Commission assist us in reconciling with the family members in a proper manner.

We request that the Commission tries means of contacting the members of the families so that we can speak with them. We request that if this is possible, the Commission should assist us in doing so.

It could happen that maybe we have forgotten some things or maybe others we have expressed not in a correct manner, but what we have explained here is what we remember to the best of our ability. We request the Commission to assist us in achieving reconciliation because I think one of the main objectives of this Commission is reconciliation.

Thank you.

MR WILLS: Mr Mkhize finally, is it not so that since your arrest and since you realized the horror of your ways and the incorrectness of your action that you've attempted to assist the authorities as far as possible in getting to the bottom of a lot of the issues you were involved in? To that extent you've assisted the Goldstone Commission; you spent weeks with the Special Investigation Task Unit; you've appeared before the TRC's Human Rights Committee in order to assist with information in regard to the issues that they are working on. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is the truth. As you mentioned all this for fora I have involved myself in them. Since my sentencing I was given a chance to mitigate the sentence. That is when I started to speak the truth as I knew it regarding the crimes that I was being sentenced for.

Thereafter I went with the Investigation Task Unit headed by Col Dobson. I walked with him for quite a long time so that these issues could be investigated and cleared. They have a full report about all these incidents that I have mentioned in these proceedings.

I also from August 4 last year I appeared before a hearing at the Durban Christian Centre before the Violation of Human Rights Committee of the TRC. We requested to appear before this committee and explain all these issues with the intention of reconciliation as I am here before this forum today.

Even at prison I am in a committee together with Romeo Mbambo. We represent IFP prisoners in reconciliation with ANC prisoners. If I can just mention this: there are a lot of people who are in prison who are responsible for such actions as similar to ours. But organisations today are not interested in those people. They are speaking about peace processes, but are not concerned about the foot soldiers who carried out these activities. They are involved at the top level in reconciliation. They speak about this in the media but they don't say anything about families of the victims and about the perpetrators themselves.

We need counselling because this affects you mentally, psychologically. Nobody has come forth to suggest how we can get this counselling, how the element of criminality can be rooted out; how we can become human again. But instead they are speaking of peace packages that have nothing to do with us; the people who carried out these activities. So there are a lot of prisoners who were involved in such activities.

We have committed ourselves to affect reconciliation with ANC prisoners with whom we had been fighting in the community. We are trying to affect reconciliation between the foot soldiers so that we are not left behind.

Because if this happens, when we are released or if we are released and we are still people who perceive ourselves as enemies, therefore it is useless for politicians to reconcile whereas foot soldiers are still in a war situation.

These foot soldiers all need counselling. They also need traditional rights. The foot soldiers should also be able to reconcile, so we have created this committee of reconciliation with the ANC.

We have contacted Mr Hlengwam, an IFP leader and informed him of this procedure, of this process. We plan to call the media so that we can make statements to the media. And the ANC prisoners will do the same.

The ANC has planned to call Mr Willison Ncono to inform him of this process. He has been to the prison quite a few times to speak to ANC prisoners. Mr Hlangwa also visited us in prison with regards to this process. Mr Dingele, another IFP leader has also visited us twice regarding this process of reconciliation with ANC prisoners.

Although we had not reached a situation where we could call youth leaders as well, because we intend calling the youth president of the IFP and one of the ANC to address IFP and ANC prisoners alike. And we also want to send them to the youth of the two organisations to affect reconciliation and to affect an awareness campaign. That is the kind of committee we are involved in at Westville Prison.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, that concludes the evidence in chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Just for the record: Mr Stewart who has been representing some of the applicants has excused himself for today and Mr Mogade who has been present throughout the hearing and who does have the right of representation is standing in for Mr Stewart. Mr Mogade, would you please just put yourself on record?

MR MOGADE: Thank you Mr Chairman. My name is Sheldon Mogade. I represent the Campus Law Clinic; we have instructed Angus Stewart in this matter. Mr Chairman, might I suggest that I start with my cross-examination after tea, because I see it's already five to eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that would be convenient, if we take the tea adjournment now, if we can reconvene at twenty past eleven?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR MKHIZE (suo)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOGADE: (Indistinct) four lines from the bottom of the page. It reads

"I was approached by Daloxulo Luthuli who instructed me to go to Ulundi and see Maj Langeni concerning under-cover duties."

Do you have that line?

MR MKHIZE: From para 16?

MR MOGADE: Ja, para 26, the fifth line from the bottom.

MR MKHIZE: Okay. Ja, I got it.

MR MOGADE: Mr Mkhize, it has been suggested, not only in this forum, but in others, that Mr Daloxulo Luthuli acted without any higher authority; that he acted without instructions. In fact that he directed a band of trained hitmen, including himself, for his own purposes. Are you aware of suggestions of that nature?

MR MKHIZE: No. I would not know, because it was not Duloxulo Luthuli to whom I spoke about starting this structure. But I also indicated and referred to other people such as Gideon Zulu and I also spoke about the Minister Mzimela who was then General Secretary of the Kwazulu Legislator, MZ Khumalo, and he was then personal assistant to the President of the IFP. And therefore I would not say that it was Mr Luthuli only who did this on his own. And because of the reasons I have already stated.

MR MOGADE: Mr Mkhize, now to your knowledge which higher authorities did Mr Luthuli report to or receive any instructions from in directing the Caprivi trainees around the province?

MR MKHIZE: There might be others whom I do not know, but I am talking about the ones that I know. I don't know whether those people would relate the same information to other people at upper positions or not. What knowledge I have is confined to them. I cannot think of others, other than themselves.

MR MOGADE: But were you present at any meetings with Mr Luthuli and various other people who you saw as Mr Luthuli's superiors in the hit squad hierarchy if you could put it like that?

MR MKHIZE: I was talking about the first meeting where we had Capt Langeni. I was present at that meeting.

MR MOGADE: Okay. Could you turn to pg 91 of the record, which would be pg 19?

MR MKHIZE: Pg 912, paragraph?

MR MOGADE: The paragraph right at the top, para 34.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR MOGADE: Okay. Now about five lines from the bottom of that paragraph you say

"I informed him that I had to take him to Ulundi to introduce him to my superiors, referring to Dalokulu Luthuli, Maj Langeni, MZ Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu."

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I'm still following.

MR MOGADE: Now to your mind were those people - Maj Langeni, MZ Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu - Mr Luthuli's superiors?

MR MKHIZE: According to my knowledge these two, Dalokulu Luthuli and Maj Langeni were within the military force. And the other three, Gideon Zulu and MZ Khumalo together with Robert Mzimela were politicians. If you look at the military structure all over it is such that there is a commander who is on the military side, and he reports to the politicians. Like ministers of certain departments, like Commissioner Fivaz has a superior above him and such as Sydney Mofamade. That simply means the politician becomes the senior to the one in the military.

MR MOGADE: Yes, then the list of persons is what I wanted to know on that point. Could we move on? Okay. Now during your evidence in chief you referred to various random and indiscriminate attacks on the residents of so-called ANC areas in Esikhawini. For example attacks on bus stops and attacks on crowds which were walking around in ANC areas. That would be pg 106 of the record. That's an example.

MR MKHIZE: Paragraph?

MR MOGADE: 64.

MR MKHIZE: Please do not refer to the pages but instead use the paragraphs because our numbering is different.

MR MOGADE: Okay. Then it would be pg 34 of your application and para 64. Okay. Now you say that Zwele Dlamini and yourself proceeded to H2 section which is an ANC area and members of the syndicate alighted from the kombi and you waited together with Zwele in the vehicle. You heard shooting

"...and soon thereafter my colleagues returned and I took them to their house."

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOGADE: And were there not other incidents where you participated in random and indiscriminate attacks in ANC areas?

MR MKHIZE: Are you saying incidents where I was not directly involved? I don't follow the question. Would you please repeat?

MR MOGADE: What I am saying Mr Mkhize is during your evidence in chief you referred to a number of incidents where members of the hit squad went into certain ANC areas and would fire randomly into crowds. Incidents of that nature.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know that I did mention that. What is the question then?

MR MOGADE: My question is what was the political objective of those kinds of attacks?

MR MKHIZE: I have explained before the Commission here that these indiscriminate attacks were conducted. Even though there was a difference in our case we would sit down first, formulate a strategy, adopt it, agreed upon the strategy and we would agree on a strategy following reasons and possible ways in which the movement can benefit.

I have also referred to incidents such as Mr Willi Nxunu where he testified in court to the fact that there is quiet at Esikhawini now that this person was in jail. We had to establish as to how the movement was going to benefit if we launched such attacks. And there had to be violence so that the Court should understand that the detaining or arrest of these two boys did not bring any change at Esikhawini. That was the intention.

And I have also explained how the organisation benefited. Their incarceration dampened the spirit of the movement.

MR MOGADE: Thank you Mr Mkhize. Mr Mkhize, could we now move on to the period after you were arrested in August 1993? Okay, now during your evidence in chief you said that after the arrest in August '93 members of the IFP hit squad hierarchy, e.g. Maj Langeni and Mr MZ Khumalo, they failed to keep their promises to you to help you. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOGADE: After you were arrested you then subsequently through your girlfriend contacted Mr Dulokulu Luthuli in an attempt to help you get bail and organise legal representation.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOGADE: Did Mr Luthuli help you?

MR MKHIZE: I wouldn't know whether he helped or not, because I would say I finally received legal assistance through the State.

MR MOGADE: Did Mr Luthuli advise you at a point to expose the truth about the hit squads to the Goldstone Commission?

MR MKHIZE: It must be remembered that we were arrested first. That is in August. Romeo was arrested in July. And at the time Mr Luthuli was still outside. Mr Luthuli was at the time one of the people that we were looking up to to keep promises so that we could be assisted legally and in any other way. And also he had his own friends at the time, as I have already indicated. And therefore we were still waiting and as we were in court at Mtunzini and he kept coming to court.

I remember one day he came in the company of Lesley Mkulisa, another Caprivian and my girlfriend referred to earlier on. They came to see me. We discussed this. He is the only leader among the leaders with whom we were working who still came closer to us at the time. He still had the courage to come to court because people did not know him at the time. And he would come to court and find a way of speaking to me.

And he also indicated that he too didn't know what to do. And we wondered how, because we had a situation. And he said one day that the people wanted to attack him as well. And I started not understanding what is happening. And I'm trying by so saying to explain that Mr Luthuli according to me remained behind and experienced some pressure which did not enable him to communicate with us as well as he ought to.

And we ultimately took the decision to expose the truth. I can therefore say that myself and Mr Luthuli jointly took the decision. We then therefore brought him closer because he was still the only person coming to us. And that was because they wanted him to ride the bus as well.

MR MOGADE: Sorry Mr Mkhize, who do you refer to when you say "they"?

MR MKHIZE: I am talking about the IFP leaders who disowned us after having promised us that they were not going to desert us, even if we landed in trouble. Talking about these leaders therefore, I'm not referring to every leadership, all leadership within the IFP. I am specifically referring to all the leaders with whom we were working, pertaining to what we are here about. People like Capt Langeni, Mr MZ Khumalo, the Honourable Gideon Zulu and Robert Mzimela; the local leadership at Esikhawini and even though they were not present at the first meeting at Ulundi where the meeting was convened for the formation of the hit squad. And these are the people, such as Mrs Mbuyazi and VP Muyela and Chief Mathaba.

MR MOGADE: Thank you Mr Mkhize. Mr Mkhize, once again during your evidence in chief in answer to a question as to the obligations that you were under to carry out your activities, you said that members of the hit squad would also be under the same obligation. Now Mr Zwele Dlamini, the third applicant, would it be correct to say then that when you gave an order that a certain person would be eliminated or you received an order to eliminate a certain person, and you went to fetch Mr Zwele Dlamini, he would not question your authority or question why this person ought to be eliminated?

MR MKHIZE: Zwele Dlamini is equally a foot soldier. He knows that fully well. I went to Ngwelisane to fetch him on several occasions to come and assist me as a person who was seconded here to work under these conditions. And therefore there was nothing he could do as well to object to any instruction. I myself take full responsibility of things that he did. And therefore I must own up to those things. Because I am the one who passed on instruction to reach Zwele Dlamini.

MR MOGADE: Okay. Thank you Mr Mkhize, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mogade. Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Mkhize, you mentioned quite a number of incidents in which you were involved, and I would like to mention two incidents and in an attempt to refresh your memory and await your comment. Do you recall an incident on the 23rd of February 1992 at the J1 hall where Dan Ndlovu was killed and burnt and a certain Mabiga girl was involved in the same incident; she was killed and burnt?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Chairperson, I still remember the incident, but I don't know it. I was not present but I know about it.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know who were the people that were responsible for that incident?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Chairperson, I don't want to engage very much in that incident because I might commit myself, whereas I don't know. I just think that in the next testimony - we still have many witnesses to come and testify. I want to believe that there might be one among those who might be in a position to answer well to that. I was not directly involved and I do not have certainty as to whether there is anyone among here who is directly involved.

MR NGUBANE: According to the information that you received, were your Caprivians involved in that incident?

MR MKHIZE: No, not according to the instruction that came from me myself, having received it from my superiors. I did not issue such kind of an instruction. Not myself.

MR NGUBANE: My question is not whether you did give such an instruction. My question is simply this: did any one of the Caprivians according to your knowledge participate in that incident?

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane, can you properly clarify to Mr Mkhize whether you are referring to Caprivians who form part of his own hit squad which he commanded, or you are making enquiries about Caprivians who were staying in Esikhawini and in surrounding areas?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Were any of the Caprivians under your command involved in that incident?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, the one member of the hit squad that was under my instruction is not necessarily a Caprivian. I would like to explain this and clarify it, because when you are talking about Caprivians, you are referring to those who received Caprivi training.

Among these hit squad members that I commanded there were not necessarily only Caprivians. There were others who were not Caprivians and therefore I cannot say that there was no Caprivian among these people. There is one who is involved, even though he was not a Caprivian but he was indeed under my command.

MR NGUBANE: Who is that person?

MR MKHIZE: That is Israil Fangwane.

MR NGUBANE: I see. And on the 26th of August 1992 the incident at Set Me Free Shebeen where about 11 people were killed, were you involved in that incident?

MR MKHIZE: No Mr Ngubane, I was not involved. I was very sick at the time. It is something that I saw on television. I was sick at Dundee and for about three months I was sick. I was not even around Esikhawini. That is something that I saw in the news on television.

MR NGUBANE: So I take it by what you are saying that you were not even involved in the planning or cover-up of that incident.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I agree with you. I personally was not involved in the incident.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Mkhize, is it correct that after your arrest Mr Dalukolo Luthuli realized that you were in trouble and he approached you in jail and he indicated to you that the only way of getting out of this trouble is to apply for amnesty?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct. We discussed it at length and he agreed as one of the commanders that we should come and apply for amnesty.

MR NGUBANE: Right. And at that stage Mr Luthuli did not speak of any apology or any reconciliation. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Let me put it this way Mr Ngubane: at the time we had realized that we were fools; we were used. The moment we started realizing that we were fools, the first thing that came to mind was that I have wronged people. I'm just wondering how am I going to reconcile with them. Once you realize that you are wrong, that's the first thing that comes to mind. How am I going to look the people in the eye? And therefore the question of reconciliation cannot be separated from asking for amnesty. It cannot be separated from full disclosure. One cannot separate reconciliation and full disclosure, because if there is no full disclosure, reconciliation cannot take place. Because there has to be a basis on which people reconcile.

MR NGUBANE: Well, I know that in terms of the law that is the position. The thing that I was interested in is when you made a decision to disclose your offenses, at that time what was of prime importance to you, was to get out of trouble. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Not necessarily to find oneself out of the problem. I'd like to refer you back a little bit to my affidavit. I did indicate that I am not co-operating for the first time here. I co-operated from the time of the trial in court. First of all we adopted a system during our case that we were going to maintain our silence so that the Court should continue leading evidence. And the Court led its evidence; we did not deny anything. We were just silent until the Court came to the judgment and we were sentenced without having said a thing.

Now if you look at this very carefully, you will realize that our silence, not trying alibi's or refuting statements in court, suggests that we had already realized that we were wrong. We had realized that there will come a time where the truth would have to out.

Because had we not realized at the time, we would refute some statements and testimony. Some of the cases for which I am sentenced today here would not have sent me to jail. And that is the position.

There is quite a lot of evidence that was not available at court, but we did not refute that. And when we started opening our mouths, we started divulging the truth and exposing everything.

MR NGUBANE: So today you have said that full disclosure and an apology to the people are interwoven. I was pursuing this line of cross-examination because the impression that you created to me yesterday was that amnesty was not of prime concern to you, but what was of prime concern to you was to apologize to the families and face the families. That was not entirely correct. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Even though I do not quite follow the question Mr Ngubane, but I did say in this forum that the main, important thing is not necessarily to ask for amnesty. I said firstly it's to help the youths so that they do not find themselves in the same trap. They should know how these things happen. So that this government should not find itself in the same predicament.

And secondly I said we should expose ourselves, divulge the truth to the wronged families so that they get to know how their loved ones and next of kins died.

Thirdly we therefore would like to ask for amnesty from the Commission.

MR NGUBANE: Let's turn now to your income. You have told us that when you were conducting your activities, you had a double salary; firstly as a Caprivian and secondly as a policeman. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to the time when I was at Esikhawini? Or are you talking about the time when we had already started the hit squad? I do not quite follow the question. Would you please repeat?

MR NGUBANE: That's how I had understood your evidence, but if I am wrong, I am prepared to correct it.

CHAIRPERSON: You said at one stage Mr Mkhize that you'd received a double salary. You received a salary from two sources. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That was not the time at which I was at Esikhawini. I did not get two salaries when I was at Esikhawini after having been trained as a police. That means that from the time of July the 1st 1989 I never again received two salaries. And the two salaries was happening at the time when I was at Pietermaritzburg deployed at the SAP. We were paid as special constables and Caprivians. I had not received training as a police at the college. I had not undergone police training. That is when I left Maritzburg. I stopped then to receive two salaries.

On arrival at Esikhawini I no longer continued to receive two salaries.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Mr Ngubane, you can proceed.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, thank you. Thank you for that clarification. How much were you earning as a policeman at Esikhawini whilst you were doing these activities, this hit squad activities?

MR MKHIZE: Even though I cannot still remember very well, but I think my gross salary was around R2 100 and some change at the time when I was at Esikhawini. That was the kind of salary that I received at the time of my arrest.

MR NGUBANE: Well, would it be fair then to suggest that after tax deductions and all that your salary would be in the region of about R1 500. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would think so. I shall think that it would range around R1 300 or so.

MR NGUBANE: Now you testified yesterday that in the areas of Inkatha people were made to pay money in order to sustain the day to day life of the Caprivians. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane is talking about tax payers now.

MR NGUBANE: No, no. I mean the money which I can refer to as the protection fee in the Inkatha area paid by ordinary people to the leadership, to sustain the lives of the Caprivians.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I'm very sorry to interrupt Mr Ngubane, but I think the question is slightly misleading. My understanding of the evidence of Mr Mkhize yesterday was that this money was collected from the community not to sustain the Caprivians, but as a protection fee, to protect the community. I think that there is a difference. That is my recollection of the evidence. Possibly that's...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wills, I must say my recollection is that people were obliged to pay an amount. I wasn't under the impression or I didn't get the impression that all that amounts specifically went to the so-called Caprivians. But perhaps you can ask around on that what the purpose of that money was Mr Ngubane and get clarity from the witness at this stage.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. It's just that I picked it up in Zulu when he said that it was used to maintain the boys. So I assumed that it was the Caprivians.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well, I would have missed that then. But perhaps you can ask, thanks.

MS KHAMPEPE: And I think Mr Ngubane it was in relation to his hit squad members, which included not only Caprivians but other people who were recruited who are not Caprivians.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Right.

MR MKHIZE: I would like to explain this. I realized that the Judges as well are similarly confused. I did not say the moneys were meant to sustain the livelihood of the Caprivians. I was not only referring to the IFP as a movement. What I said yesterday was that these political movements in their different areas and sections, they had a tendency to collect moneys from the community.

Not only the IFP. This was a common practice, to collect money from the communities so that for example within the IFP they would refer to the people collecting the money as "utheleweni". They would actually refer to themselves as the ones who protect the community. The moneys would therefore be used to buy arms, ammunitions and some traditional herbs for protection.

I did not say that these moneys were used to sustain the Caprivians because they were protecting people. No, I did not say that.

MR NGUBANE: My concern is that I have information that although my line is not that you were not under political orders; I grant you that. I have information that in spite of the fact that you had political orders to execute these acts, you on top of that had your own motive of leading a flashy lifestyle for which you were probably paid.

MR WILLS: Sorry. Mr Chairperson, before that question is answered, may I enquire as to whether the source of this instruction is going to come before this Commission so it can also be subject to the same scrutiny under cross-examination? I think that's fair in the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that whether or not - he's just putting it to him under cross-examination. I don't think it's an unfair question. He's saying he's received information that you had your own motive to further a flashy lifestyle. I think that's not an unfair question. I don't know if it will be necessary to have the informant - well, if the informants of that information is not going to come to evidence I don't think that in itself will disqualify the question. I think it's not an unfair question.

MR WILLS: As the Committee pleases.

MR NGUBANE: Do you have any comments to that?

MR MKHIZE: Can you please repeat the question Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: The information I have is that you led a flashy lifestyle, wearing expensive jewellery, for example expensive leather jackets and the motive for commission - sorry. To sustain that lifestyle you were probably paid for killing the people. What is your comment to that?

MR MKHIZE: I deny that, because firstly I am a fully fledged professional policeman. To be paid as a Caprivian happened before I became a policeman. If I am alleged to have been leading that lifestyle, I did this from my own salary that I earned as a policeman. And it has been exposed to this Commission that I did indeed do my police duties. I was not only involved in the duties of the Caprivians, but I also did my police duties.

It also depends on whether a person has financial control or how you use your money; maybe on your house or on liquor or on clothes. It is a person's personal choice on how you spend your money. It has nothing to do with my activities. I received a salary like everybody which I used to maintain my lifestyle.

MR NGUBANE: Let us turn to the attack at the Pundada's bus stop. That would be on pg 96 of the record and on your affidavit pg 24, starting from para 46. Do you agree with me that that bus stop was not a cul de sac; the bus was still going to proceed to other bus stops. Right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it was still proceeding to areas like J1.

MR NGUBANE: Do you agree with me that when you described this incident in your affidavit, you said that you identified the bus as an ANC bus stop, but there are no particulars which justify your identification of this bus as an ANC bus?

MR MKHIZE: It is not so Mr Ngubane. To respond to this question whether the bus was still proceeding, yes that is true. It was not the last stop. It was still proceeding towards other sections which were known to be ANC strongholds like J1. What I can assure you of is that it was not going to stop at J2 under any circumstances, because in that area an ANC person wouldn't have set foot. So the bus wouldn't have stopped at J2, but would have stopped eventually at J1.

Secondly with reference to the fact that we didn't have assurance that this was indeed an ANC bus, we did have such assurances. Firstly if maybe there was an IFP member or a non-member of the ANC, that person wouldn't have gotten off at that bus stop because that was an ANC stronghold area. Therefore a person who got off at that bus stop would have been known to belong to the ANC.

Secondly they wouldn't be singing ANC freedom songs. You wouldn't expect Inkatha members to sing such songs. Therefore if people who were on the bus were singing such songs it is clearly evident to you what organisation they belonged to.

MR NGUBANE: Well, according to your affidavit there is no mention of the ANC songs with regard to this incident. The only mention that you make of ANC songs being sung is the Ntokosweni bus stop incident. Do you realize that?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, when you write such statements it depends on the abilities of the statement taker. Because the statement is written through questioning. It depends on whether this person can enquire about specifics like how did you identify the bus; then I would supply the information.

But if he didn't enquire about how we identified the bus, I will just answer to his or her specific questions. And therefore it will appear on the affidavit as if I haven't mentioned it. But it's just because the statement taker did not enquire about it when we were writing the statement.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Ngubane, before you proceed with your cross-examination would you allow me just on this aspect? Mr Mkhize, other than the singing which you attempted to describe that this bus belonged to ANC people; you mentioned in your affidavit

"I identified the bus as the right one and told my group that we could attack the bus."

What identification marks did you have that this bus was the correct one?

MR MKHIZE: Chairperson, firstly it was because the bus stopped at an ANC stronghold area and secondly because the people inside the bus sang songs that I knew to be of the African National Congress. I did not attack the bus or did not utter the command that the bus should be hit before it stopped. It stopped and we heard the singing and it indeed stopped at an ANC stronghold area and therefore I decided that the bus should be attacked after I had heard the songs.

ADV MOTATA: I get the impression Mr Mkhize that if we look at Esikhawini, the bus companies were different; that this bus would stop at IFP areas and this bus would stop at ANC areas. Are we understanding you to say so?

MR MKHIZE: According to my knowledge it is not company policy that a bus stops at certain stops and not at others. But it was because of the situation that necessitates that a bus does not stop at certain stops. How does it stop at an IFP area if there is no IFP member who is going to alight at that bus stop? Therefore it wouldn't be able to stop there. It would only stop at certain stops which were strongholds of a certain political organisation.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Ngubane, you may proceed.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Thank you. I have spoken to the members of the ANC leadership, local members of the ANC leadership and they don't know anything about their people being injured in this incident. The only incident they know about is the one at Ntokosweni. Do you agree with me that you could have then attacked innocent people?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, I am only explaining an incident that I carried out. I am explaining how it happened and why it happened. I also explained that I believed that those people were ANC members for the reasons that I have explained previously. I have also explained that I don't have any other information relating to how many people died or who had died and which organisation they belonged to. But all the indications that I have mentioned; to me I assumed or believed that those people had to be attacked.

MS KHAMPEPE: On a point of clarification: when you say he could have attacked innocent persons, are you by implication saying that they could have been IFP members? I just need that clarification.

MR NGUBANE: Innocent people who were not affiliated to - well, innocent in the sense that they were not members of the ANC coming from the rally. It could have been neutral people; it could have been IFP people.

MS KHAMPEPE: In a sense you are saying he might have attacked people who were not ANC because his instructions were to attack anything that was associated with the ANC in those areas.

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Which were perceived to be ANC strongholds.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. Yes. Can I proceed? I think he has...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now let's turn to the attempted murder of Mr Welcome Mtimkulu. Now you mentioned that you received instructions to kill Mtimkulu from Maj Langeni. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. It did not only originate there. I also explained that Mr Mtimkulu was also discussed at a meeting which I talked about yesterday. His name was discussed also at that meeting.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry, I don't recall that meeting. Do you say it's a senior leadership meeting of the local branch of Inkatha or of the Ulundi branch of Inkatha? What's the position?

MR MKHIZE: His name was mentioned even within the local leadership of the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did that include Mrs Mbuyazi, Mbyela and who else?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, who else was there? Mr Mtimkulu is particularly interested in the names of those people.

MR MKHIZE: I mentioned myself, Romeo Mbambo, Mrs Mbuyazi, Phipi Vyela. I also mentioned Chief Mathaba. There are other meetings, but I'm not sure whether Counsellor Nzuza was also present at this particular meeting. But what I am sure of is that it was not just Maj Langeni's idea, but the local leadership of the IFP was also interested. Also wanted his name on the list.

I may not be specific about the meeting at which Mtimkulu's name was mentioned about the people who were there, but the people that we used to hold meetings with, I've already mentioned their names.

MR NGUBANE: Did the BSI participate in the planning of the attack on Mtimkulu?

MR MKHIZE: Of the people that I was with there was no BSI member when we attacked Mr Mtimkulu.

MR NGUBANE: How did you get to know the residential address of Mr Mtimkulu? Was it not through the BSI?

MR MKHIZE: If we can just speak about the BSI; they have files. They used to have files where they kept track on ANC leadership. Therefore Mr Mtimkulu also had his own file within the BSI department. Particularly on his activities. Therefore communication between the BSI and the local leadership helped the local leadership on obtaining information about that particular person.

MR NGUBANE: And that information would be transmitted to you to follow up. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: We followed that information under reconnaissance. We would conduct reconnaissance after an instruction had been given to kill someone. We did not usually follow a person to ascertain what activities he was conducting or what he was mobilising. We would follow a person to ascertain the righter spot or an ideal spot where we could attack him. Where we could carry out an attack without being detected. We didn't really follow a person's activities. We were only interested on how we could get to hit him.

MR NGUBANE: Because I have instructions from Mr Mtimkulu that on the eve of his being attacked he was asked in detail about his movement and his residence and on the following day he was attacked by you. Would you perhaps have knowledge of that immediate information prior to his attack?

MR MKHIZE: It is possible that what Mr Mtimkulu claims did in fact happen. It is clear that the local leadership had information on his activities. But where they got that information, it is possible that he was being asked by sources of the IFP leadership.

MR NGUBANE: Yesterday... [intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Before you leave that point Mr Ngubane. Mr Mkhize, you in your affidavit and in your evidence if I recall well you stated that you didn't know his whereabouts; you had to make enquiries and establish where he was staying. How did you establish where he was staying? Did you speak to BSI? It must be something that should be within your personal knowledge.

MR MKHIZE: I did not verify his residential address from the BSI. I only enquired about it at a side from people because he was known. Some people would know where he was staying, so I discovered that he was staying at Upper H2 in some flats there. I confirmed this by seeing his green Skyline where I had been told that he stays.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Now in this incident you also mentioned Joyful Mthethwa and we know by now that he was a Caprivian. Do you confirm that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And he operated mainly at Nseleni area. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is true.

MR NGUBANE: As of now do you know about his whereabouts?

MR MKHIZE: No. I have been in prison since 1993 up to the present day. I don't know anything about him; I don't know whether he still lives in Ensaleni or somewhere else.

MR NGUBANE: We have learnt that he assisted you in the operations at Esikhawini. Did you also assist him in the operations at Nseleni?

MR MKHIZE: No. They had already fixed the situation in Nseleni. People like Barney Msomi know that Nseleni had been fixed a long time ago. Therefore there was nothing that required my assistance there.

MR NGUBANE: Now you mentioned a character by the name of -well, who is a policeman by the name of Manzini and you indicated that he was an ambiguous character who was thought to be ANC and also IFP. Do you recall that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: At the time of the attack of Mtimkulu according to you was he IFP?

MR MKHIZE: It is difficult to remember that Mr Ngubane, because I already explained that I did not understand Manzini at the time. I couldn't know which side he fell on. I cannot really say which side he fell on at the time. Because even today I don't know.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Mtimkulu instructs me that on the following day a powder blue vehicle belonging to Manzini was seen at the scene of the crime committed on the previous day and the people there were picking up cartridges in an attempt to cover up. Would you know anything about that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I don't know anything about it. What I can say that Manzini is an ambiguous character. We don't know whether at that time who he was working for between the ANC and the IFP. It could be that he was working for the IFP or the ANC. I am not really sure.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. Let's move on to the incident as the person you refer to as Daliwe Mkhwanazi. That will be on pg 28 of your affidavit; pg 100 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: It's para 52.

MR NGUBANE: Firstly, who advised you that Mr Daliwe had a surname called Mkhwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: I learnt later that his surname was Mkhwanazi. I thought that his surname was Daliwe. I thought it was - when I received an instruction about him, his surname was not mentioned. It was only said that Daliwe who drives a Ford and his car was described, and I knew the car. Because he usually parked outside troublesome hostels. It was normally seen outside those hostels. And there was this information heard or held by the local leadership that when we come to raid hostels we would meet this car on our way....Who April Daliwe stays in Ngwanase.

MR NGUBANE: Did you assume that because he was residing in the Ngwanase area at Kwadlangeze, therefore he must have been Nkwanaze?

MR MKHIZE: I wouldn't say that he was Mkwanaze because of that. If I remember correctly up to my incarceration I knew his surname to be Daliwe. That he was Mkwanaze, I think I got this when we started making statements or affidavits. I cannot quite remember amongst the people that I was incarcerated with about how it came about that he was Mkwanaze. But at that time I knew him to be Dadiwe. I didn't know that he was Dadiwe by (indistinct).

MR NGUBANE: When you received instructions to eliminate him, was there anything suggested to you that he was a threat to the Mkwanaze tribal authority?

MR MKHIZE: No. I'd be telling a lie. We did not discuss him and the Mkwanaze chieftain.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. And you have spoken of various cover-ups in order to get away out of being prosecuted. Did you at any stage during your activities interfere in any manner with any of the district surgeons conducting post mortem examinations on the ANC members?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not. Not personally.

MR NGUBANE: The leadership of Inkatha both at a local level and at a national level, according to your knowledge did they interfere in any manner with district surgeon, Dr Ndlandla who was conducting post mortem examinations on ANC people killed at Esikhawini?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, I do not have any knowledge to that effect. What knowledge and information I have is that Romeo, having been at the CID at the time, there were times when he would go and help the district surgeon to conduct post mortem. Not in his capacity as a hit squad member; it was normal procedure for detectives to avail himself when the doctor conducted the post mortem so that you could observe as to the process of gathering this information.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know whether Romeo was present when the post mortem examination was conducted on the body of April Daliwe?

MR MKHIZE: He never indicated that to me. I do not think he was present. I would not know. He would have to answer to that. But I do not remember him saying he was present.

MR NGUBANE: Well, I have just indicated to you why I am pursuing this line of cross-examination. I have instructions that when Mrs Daliwe wanted to attend the post mortem examination of her husband, she was denied by Dr Ndlandla access to the examination. He alleged that the law didn't permit that. Surely you won't be able to comment on that.

MR MKHIZE: (No audible answer)

MR NGUBANE: And my further instructions are that Dr Ndlandla later on advised Mrs Daliwe that he had found a bullet lodged in the skull of Mr Daliwe and that bullet had been sent to Pretoria for examination. But later it transpired that that information was false, because when this body was exhumed later on, the bullet was found lodged in the head of Mr Daliwe. But do you confirm what you said yesterday, that only one shot was fired at Daliwe?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, first of all I confirm that he was shot with one bullet. Secondly you will remember I explained this on Tuesday; we had been promised that Brig Mzimela was going to do by all means to cover up so that the investigation should not succeed. There were other incidents that you may later come across when my co-accused testify, where you will discover that such things are possible. I am talking here about changing gun barrels, swopping cartridges and things like that. I did refer to that yesterday, pertaining to J1. The swopping of cartridges and they would send wrong cartridges to Pretoria, et cetera. I did refer to that. So that if there are suspicions to that effect, I would not say no. I look at those as something that they did. But I can assure you that only one bullet was used, which killed him. And wrong bullets would be sent to Pretoria. Yes, they may have discovered a bullet at the time of the exhumation of his body. It may as well be that the one that was sent to Pretoria was not the correct one.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Mr Chairman, at this stage I know that procedurally it might not be appropriate, but I have conceded to advance this to the Commission without expecting an urgent ruling on the matter. I have instructions from Mrs Daliwe to make an application that time permitting, or some time in future Dr Ndlandla should be subpoenaed to appear before the TRC if...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, unless I missed something in the record this is the first time I'm hearing mention of him. And it would seem that he is being implicated by what you have put; indirectly implicated. We haven't had direct evidence, but through your submission. Are you now making an application that he be notified in terms of the Act as being an implicated person? And that he be subpoenaed to attend?

MR NGUBANE: Those are my instructions Mr Chairman. Not necessarily during this session, but maybe some time in future.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What I'll do is I'll ask for submissions from any of the legal representatives concerning which to make submissions and then as you say we'll make a ruling on it at a later stage. I think Mr Ngubane if you can also just make reference to the Act before you make a formal application. The question of whether if a person is implicated, as an implicated person whether he can be subpoenaed. Because once it's been determined that he is an implicated person and notification is sent to him, then he has the right to come and represent himself and make any submissions and be heard if he wants. Maybe you'd take a look at the question of whether he can be subpoenaed because he may well have the right to - notwithstanding the fact that he's implicated - to stand back and not make an appearance.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll do that. May I then proceed? Thank you. Now let's go to para 56 - I'll be short on that. The matter of Nafta Nxumalo. As far as you were concerned, was the BSI involved in furnishing you of Maj Langene with the information regarding Nafta Nxumalo?

MR MKHIZE: No. They did not give me information about Mr Nxumalo. But it is also true that Maj Langene did not reside at Esikhawini. And he was not working at the firm where Mr Nxumalo was working. He must have gathered or received the information from elsewhere as to what activities Mr Nxumalo was engaged in, which activities damaged our movement. But I did not personally receive information from BSI about Mr Nxumalo's activities. I could not even identify this Mr Nxumalo.

MR NGUBANE: Is Maj Langene the only person from whom you received instructions regarding the killing of Nafta Nxumalo?

MR MKHIZE: I tried to explain to the Commission yesterday that as a person who was in close contact with the local leadership at Esikhawini, let me just put it this way: if the situation suggested that I knew what was happening and why these people had to be killed, according to the manner in which we functioned I only had to receive instructions and I did not have to know the reasons for carrying the instructions out.

I only got to know the reasons as a result of my close working relationship with the local leadership. So I would receive instructions having already received knowledge to the reason for his elimination. I think that answers your question.

MR NGUBANE: Turning to para 59 of your affidavit, you mention the attack on ANC members at H2 section. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry, I am misquoting that. Attack on ANC areas. That's para 59. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. Is it correct that on the very same day you had received a ZJ Husky brand new motor vehicle?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: You were excited about receiving this motor vehicle. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. Because we were going to use it or attain or achieve the objectives of the movement.

MR NGUBANE: Is it not the position that you became so excited with this motor vehicle that you decided just to test it; you know to conduct an operation using this new motor vehicle? In Zulu what we call "nkangula".

CHAIRPERSON: You're saying just a test run.

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, are you talking about test driving the car?

MR NGUBANE: No, no. To use his motor vehicle you know, out of excitement and shoot the people who you considered as ANC people.

MR MKHIZE: No Mr Ngubane, that is not so. Because I have explained before this Commission that the shooting of people who - I'll say the shooting of a mob of people would have a motive behind. There was no instance where we just shot at people without a motive.

I also referred to the bail at Mtunzini where Ntunu testified, where the ANC had attacked at a rally, where Gideon Zulu crawled on his stomach. We decided to use the same strategy that was being used by the ANC by attacking at random because we realized that the ANC was similarly benefiting from this strategy. And people would realize that we were not protected if we did not use the same strategy as the ANC did.

And I also indicated that it is known in politics that people would follow the kind of organisation that offered them protection. There is no situation such as random shooting for no motive, no political motive for the shooting.

Therefore I disagree that I was actually testing.

MR NGUBANE: And you realize that when you attacked these areas which you called ANC areas, even toddlers of two years, one year could be killed who knew nothing about politics.

MR MKHIZE: It was not easy Mr Ngubane for a person to take a baby to a rally in a bus.

MR NGUBANE: No, I'm not talking about the bus. I'm talking about houses where people reside.

MR MKHIZE: According to my knowledge I have never testified anywhere that we hit houses. In other words families in a household, wiping them all out. I have never testified to that effect.

MR NGUBANE: I'll remind you of one incident where you attacked flats where Matilda was killed. Those were definitely residential areas. Do you agree?

MR MKHIZE: No Mr Ngubane, that is not the case. Let me explain it as follows

Matilda was not attacked at her house. She was not attacked at her house. She was hit by a bullet that went in through a window. It was just a stray bullet. It hit her through the window while she was inside the house, and later it was not indicated that a door was broken down and people walked in. She was hit by a bullet; maybe she might have been peeping through a window, but yes the bullet hit her without any intention. It was a stray bullet so to speak.

MR NGUBANE: I quote from your affidavit regarding this incident only. It's para 66 at pg 36. I'll start at line 6. I'll come back to the incident as a whole, but for the purposes of clarifying to you what I mean, I'll read this

"I used the ZP 777 to convey my men to J1 section. I dropped them off at a certain point near the flats which were occupied by the suspected ANC attackers, and I drove off patrolling this area, giving my men cover. They attacked the flats and found nobody inside. They conducted further attacks in this area because people who live in this portion of J1 section are ANC supporters and they refused to supply information in respect of the attack on the policemen. A certain female by the name of Matilda was killed and others were injured during this operation."

Do you agree with me that clearly you were attacking residential areas where toddlers who had nothing to do with politics could be killed?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not true. The paragraph that you've just read, I can explain it as follows

There was a flat at J1, a flat that was known to harbour or to be an area of flats where ANC men resided. And also that is where Ndanda used to train his boys. And that is at the same vicinity where Constable Nxanga was shot and killed. And therefore our main target on that day after Nxanga's death were the flats which we had already information about the flats housing the ANC followers who were engaged in the activities to which I earlier on referred.

That is where the focus is on this paragraph.

MR NGUBANE: Now are you saying that it was not part of your policy to attack residential areas where ANC people resided? Indiscriminately, let me just qualify it. Indiscriminately. It was not your policy if I - excuse me for interrupting you.

MR MKHIZE: I would be contradicting myself if I were to say that. I am the one who said that there were certain politics that we adopted for certain reasons. And we would change from time to time, and if something happened at some point we would be forced to drop a strategy and follow another one. But I can indicate that if a strategy had been adopted it automatically becomes policy.

And therefore I am saying here that if you are saying it was not Inkatha's policy I would not say that is correct, because ourselves as Inkatha members, after having adopted a strategy it would therefore become a policy. The main aim here is that there is an objective, the movement objective and the strategy.

MR NGUBANE: I want to make it clear to you Mr Mkhize that it's not my intention to create the impression to you that you were not acting under the orders of your organisation. What I am saying to you is that in spite of the fact that I concede that you were given orders, you exceeded the orders of a political party and you committed the acts which could not be classified as political acts.

MR MKHIZE: I would not agree with that, because I have explained reasons for all the things that I did. And there is nowhere I have exceeded or crossed boundaries of my political movement. There was a reason that would lead to me and the hit squad having to do that. And therefore I don't think we were doing our own thing. I do not therefore agree with you when you say that.

Something could happen such as would happen when there is a war. Stray bullets fly around, for example there's a bullet that almost hit Israil Fangwane. He also believed that he was hit, but the bullet actually hit his jeans. That kind of a bullet for example, let us say it strayed and hit a baby during the struggle over the gun when we were trying to shoot the chief; when such a thing happens it is not necessarily the aim of the hit squad to hit the baby, but the circumstances under which we find ourselves at the time would be the ones that persuade us or pressure us to hit the baby.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, exactly. You knew at that time that by attacking randomly in this fashion, you foresaw that there was a possibility that apolitical people, children could be killed and you reconciled yourselves with that possibility.

MR MKHIZE: Are you saying people hurt and injured under such circumstances? That would be bad, it is unacceptable. It is totally unacceptable.

But one would insist upon training among the people with whom one is working. The question of accuracy. Persons or people should know how to handle guns, and that is closely linked to the kind of training you give them, so that they should be careful not to do that which is not required of them.

But once such a thing has happened it is still unacceptable because it affects the objective of the movement. It turns it around so that that would be referred to as negligence. That is what I can say. I do not go along with that as well.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I see it's approaching... [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Should be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment Mr Ngubane, I see it's just on one o'clock. We'll now take the lunch adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR MKHIZE (suo)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Ngubane, you may continue.

MR WILLS: Sir, Mr Chairperson, if I could just convey a request. The applicant presently giving evidence has indicated to me that he's battling a bit - I don't know if it's a result of the interpretation of the equipment. What he would like to do is have the questions put to him in English without being interpreted and then he will answer in Zulu if that is in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Do the interpreters hear that? Is that okay? Yes, thank you Mr Wills. Mr Ngubane, you may...

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Now Mr Mkhize, let's just digress a bit from your affidavit and mention some of the incidents that have been brought to my attention and hear your comment on that. In 1989 a certain gentleman by the name of Gideon Mdletshe who was residing on the periphery of Esikhawini was killed. Do you know anything about that incident?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I know that Mr Mdletshe was an ANC member. If I remember correctly Mr Mdletshe was attacked at the time when Vulani was also attacked. I think it was on the same night that he and Vulani were attacked. But I do not have knowledge as to who attacked him and how they did this.

MR WILLS: Sorry. Mr Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt. I've just received some advice from the sound technicians and I just want to make sure that the applicant has got that advice, and that is that he must turn to Channel 2.

MR MKHIZE: I've already done so.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Ngubane, you can continue.

MR NGUBANE: So is it your evidence then that you were not involved in the planning or the actual execution of the attack on Mr Gideon Mdletshe and Mr Vulani?

MR MKHIZE: No, I wasn't involved.

MR NGUBANE: I see. And do you know the prominent medical doctor of Esikhawini, Dr Luthuli who was also killed in this hit squad fashion?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was already at Esikhawini when Dr Luthuli was killed. But I do not have knowledge about his death.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know the people that killed him?

MR MKHIZE: No, I don't have any knowledge.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know whether his case was successfully investigated?

MR MKHIZE: I don't have any knowledge about that and I don't know what were the results of the investigation.

MR NGUBANE: Now turning to para 65 of your affidavit, you in your own words have in very bold letters or printing headed that paragraph as a revenge attack for the killing of the Kwazulu policemen. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is what is written.

MR NGUBANE: And do you recall that yesterday you tried to create the impression that that was not a revenge?

MR MKHIZE: No Sir. The fact that it is written in this fashion is because what we ultimately did was the results of the death of Sgt Danga after the death of other police officers in the area. But the heading here was not the objective of the attack at the time. The objective was what I explained yesterday. But the statement taker framed it this way. I think he or she assumed that because of the death of Danga, this was the reason it was carried out and that is why he or she phrased it in this manner.

MR NGUBANE: Do you confirm that at Esikhawini you said that police officers could be divided into different categories; ordinary policemen who were doing police work, IFP members who were policemen and hit squad members who were also policemen?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. And also those that I will call ANC sympathizers as well as those that I can say were planted.

MR NGUBANE: Now Constables Mtuntutwa, Makwhe, Nxubane, Mangele, Zuge and Danga were associated to you by the mere fact that they were colleagues. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, they were my colleagues.

MR NGUBANE: You couldn't describe them as your personal friends, the people about whom you knew their private details. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: And therefore you couldn't say whether they belonged to any political party.

MR MKHIZE: I think Mangele was an IFP sympathiser. Although he wasn't actively involved in politics. But he was a kind of person who spoke his mind. With reference to Zuge, he was a kind of person that you could not ascertain. I don't think he was interested or involved in politics. As well as Danga.

But having said that, ANC members regarded ZP's as Inkatha members. That was a known fact. The ANC did not attack ZP's because they had knowledge that those were IFP members, but merely because they policemen working under the system of the Kwazulu Government.

This system was known to the ANC as a system of (indistinct) orchestrated by the white government.

MR NGUBANE: And as you stand there you wouldn't vow it affirmatively and say that those policemen were not killed as a result of having created enemies in the course of doing their ordinary police work.

MR MKHIZE: I think that they were attacked because they were Kwazulu policemen whom the ANC was against. The ANC held many demonstrations, saying that ZP's should be done away with. Therefore the animosity between the IFP and the ANC is a well-known fact. It is something well-known to the Esikhawini community that ZP's were not popular in this area. And because of their actions such as investigations that they carried out.

MR NGUBANE: But is it also correct that there were police officers who were in the Kwazulu police force who were hated by ordinary criminals because of their actions which were done in the normal course of their duties; not as a result of any political activity?

MR MKHIZE: I wouldn't deny that Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: And you simply assumed that because these policemen were injured or killed, they were killed just because the people that killed them were ANC people who were against the IFP.

MR MKHIZE: They were always attacking ANC areas. And moreover, if there were investigations carried out, there wouldn't be reasons to suggest that they were attacked in pursuance of criminal activities.

MR NGUBANE: And you wouldn't even having people deposing in affidavits, indicating that these people were killed because of their political activities. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That was precisely the reason, because we thought that this was because of political reasons.

MR NGUBANE: And this gentleman you were looking after, Bafana Jele, alias Mntanda, you looked after him without there being any sworn statement to the effect that he in fact was implicated in the killing or injuring of these policemen.

MR MKHIZE: Sir, we were not looking for Mntanda, because of police activities. We wanted him in accordance with our hit squad activities which did not require statements to confirm what he was supposed to have done. We wanted him because we had received instructions in accordance with our hit squad activities.

MR NGUBANE: Well, but in your affidavit the last but one sentence in para 65 you say

"Bafana Jele, alias Mntanda was suspected to be one of the main perpetrators of the killing."

Therefore you looked after him specifically because he was suspected of having injured or killed this policemen.

MR MKHIZE: This word "suspected" refers to information that we had from the local leadership of the IFP. I use this word because there was no way that I could confirm this information from the local leadership, whether it was indeed true. And it was not my duty to confirm it.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Mkhize, this flat where you suspected that the MK people were harboured, was it in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: When you speak of hostels, I think prominent ANC hostels were Singonbele and one belonging to the railway and another one in J1 and another one near Mangonini Superette.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. In anyone of them?

MR MKHIZE: If I speak of flats I'm not talking about this three I've mentioned already. I'm speaking about a house, or rather a flat and not hostels.

MR NGUBANE: Well, I have instructions that Matilda was staying in a house which was far away from any structure which could be described as a flat. Do you agree?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I agree. I will explain this.

MR NGUBANE: I think you have answered my question. Unless the community otherwise directs, I am satisfied with your question. And I am instructed that your people in fact ended Hyad, shot at the people who were in the car, including Matilda's daughter whose name is Nompumelelo; she was also injured. And Matilda was killed there not as a result of a stray bullet, but as a result of a direct attack of the residents in that area.

MR MKHIZE: I will make such a comment Mr Ngubane: As you have mentioned that you were speaking about my people who hit directly at Matilda's house; I explained earlier when I was talking about this issue that when an area had been declared an ANC area, and a strategy had been adopted to attack the area, and Matilda happened to be in such an area together with the people that she was with.

There was nothing that would have differentiated her or would have excepted her from being attacked along with the people who were in the area. Because we were in a war situation and as I have already explained; it had already been decided that the area would be attacked for such and such a reason. In other words even a cat could have been attacked, shot at. A car could also have been attacked. In a war situation that happens. Therefore I wouldn't deny this.

MR NGUBANE: Now if you say you are not going to deny that, are you now conceding or retracting your earlier statement that Matilda was hit just by a stray bullet?

MR MKHIZE: As explained before that I wasn't present during the attack. What I learnt from my people was that she was hit by a stray bullet. But that doesn't necessitate that I deny what you are telling me now; because I understand the situation that they were in when they carried out the attack. Anybody could have been hit or injured. That we cannot deny. It was because of the situation at the time.

MR NGUBANE: In para 68 you speak about the kidnapping and murder of Nati Gumede. Do you see that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And that is a matter in respect of which you are serving sentence. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: Now Nati Gumede, it was alleged - correct me if I'm wrong - that he was a main witness in a robbery matter against Romeo Mbambo, one of the applicants. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: He was not a witness as we knew him. We knew that he had been used in a strategy to get Romeo arrested.

MR NGUBANE: But if you say he was used in that strategy, was he used as a witness?

MR MKHIZE: He was used to implicate Romeo in the stealing of a car.

MR NGUBANE: But Mr Mkhize, I'm not speaking to a layman here'; I'm speaking to a trained policeman. Can you answer my question directly: was he a witness or was he not?

MR MKHIZE: He would have been a witness.

MR NGUBANE: Now when did you learn about the fact that this gentleman was going to be a witness, if you can recall?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot recall, but what I do know is that after he had implicated Romeo in that incident, Romeo was charged. My memory doesn't serve me well about when he was charged and when did we know that Nati had been the person to implicate him. We did not receive instruction to kill him first. Our prior instruction was to investigate about him, about his activities, what he was up to. Because it could have been that Nati was doing all these activities because maybe he had a personal tiff with Romeo. They could have had some conflict, personal or financial, but it may not have been political. But because we didn't have information about him before about his political activities, I think he was the only person on whom an instruction was given that he should be investigated about who he is; his whereabouts; what he is involved in. Because we knew very well that Romeo had not stolen any car.

MR NGUBANE: Now in the Supreme Court you were charged not with robbery - that's on pg 2 of the record of the Supreme Court proceedings. You won't have that.

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR NGUBANE: You won't have that. You were charged with that you had committed an unlawful act in that you intentionally and with the aim of assisting accused no 1 who at that time was Romeo to evade justice and that you made a false statement in order to protect accused no 1, and you failed to report the involvement of accused no 1 in respect of the robbery perpetrated on the complainant. Was that statement correct?

MR MKHIZE: It was wrong. Firstly I did not even fabricate an alibi to cover this incident. This matter was reported to me or I heard of this matter very late because I had been sick for three months.

Secondly I did not make any statement regarding this matter. And no investigator has ever come to me to enquire or question me about this matter. I was very shocked at the trial when I heard that I had also been charged in Romeo's matter.

I was never involved regarding information.

MR NGUBANE: The first person to speak to you about Nati, was it Romeo Mbambo?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. After having been charged he did.

MR NGUBANE: And he was worried about this man. Is it correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: And you also became concerned that one of your members was implicated in this offence. Is it right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was worried about that.

MR NGUBANE: And who reported this matter to the people in higher authority, the Inkatha people in high authority?

MR MKHIZE: I reported.

MR NGUBANE: And you knew that these people were the people who had given you orders to kill, and they were likely to give you orders to kill this man. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: The objective of reporting was to inform them that there was a member of my hit squad who could be arrested. I was thinking beyond the arrest of Romeo. I thought that if Romeo gets arrested and maybe he gets electric shocks, he is tortured, it could happen that our activities would be exposed.

The murder of Gumede was not known, but they only knew about it when Andrew Xele was arrested and when he was in custody he eventually divulged this information. So it is normal practice that a person can be arrested for one thing, and end up divulging information that had nothing with the case with which he was arrested.

Therefore I was very concerned that information about these activities could leak, and that was the reason why I reported to my superiors.

MR NGUBANE: But Sir, I take it that you hadn't had a look at the contents of the document relating to this matter. Is it correct?

MR MKHIZE: What document are you talking about Sir?

MR NGUBANE: The docket relating to the robbery matter in which Romeo was implicated. You hadn't perused the content; you didn't know what the statements therein stated. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: I did not have access to the docket. Because I think it was investigated by the SAP. But my primary duty was to confirm with Romeo that he was not involved in the theft of the car that he was supposed to have stolen.

MR NGUBANE: And without having a look at the contents of the docket, without knowing what the statements were you immediately concluded that this was an ANC plot to incriminate Romeo, implicate him in this offence. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: I did not conclude that. But because of the problem that had now arisen, I referred the matter to my superiors because I thought the matter was beyond my control. Not that I had made conclusions about the case. As I explained before, the first instruction was to investigate Nati. And it later eventually emerged that I got an instruction that he should be killed.

MR NGUBANE: Didn't Romeo tell you that Nati Gumede was an ANC member when he first reported this matter to you?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot be sure of that, whether he told me that he was an ANC member or not. What I do remember is that there are certain things that we discovered when we started investigating him as per instruction.

We then discovered that he had certain connections with the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: Your answer here is very, very crucial. Because the picture that you are trying to project here is that you killed him to advance the aims and objects of your party; that's why you reported him to the superior people. Now Mr Mkhize, if Mr Nati Gumede was just an ordinary man according to the information that you received from Romeo, would you have gone to Ulundi to report that he has implicated Romeo?

MR MKHIZE: Even if it was a woman who had implicated Romeo I would have reported that Romeo is just about to be arrested. And it is for that reason that I followed instructions to kill Nati. That is after having received the instruction that I should investigate. I did so.

And the second instruction came to kill him, and I did so as well. Even though it was not Nati I would have done the same thing. I would report the matter to my superiors.

MR NGUBANE: While according to your own version you knew that these people in high authority were dirty people; you would definitely do that, report this thing to them with a view of having them defeating the ends of justice either by ordering you to kill the complainant or interfering with the docket. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I agree with what you are saying. My aim was that Romeo should not be arrested. And therefore I knew that as people who were protected pertaining to such matters as arrest, I knew that and I thought that Romeo would not be arrested. It was very important that Romeo be protected from arrest. For the reasons that I have already explained, as to how much damage that would cause to us.

And therefore I reported with full knowledge that anything might happen to prevent Romeo from being arrested. I must agree to that.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. And on the day of killing of Nati Gumede you had travelled to Ulundi and met with Prince Gideon Zulu. You had been summoned there with the sole aim of being sent to kill a nurse at Eshowe. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct. I was summoned to fetch a car which would be used to kill Nxumalo, the mail nurse at Eshowe and a certain security who was working at the hospital together with Nati Gumede. Not as you state Mr Ngubane that I was summoned to Ulundi to receive an instruction to go and kill Nxumalo.

MR NGUBANE: If the Committee Members can bear with me. Okay. Thank you very much. At the time of your killing of Nati Gumede, was the matter already set down for trial?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know, I cannot remember.

MR NGUBANE: For how long approximately had you wanted to kill Nati Gumede before you actually killed him?

MR MKHIZE: It is very difficult to establish or ascertain as to how long it took for us to track him down. But I really cannot say, really.

MR NGUBANE: And you knew very well that if he was not eliminated, Mbambo would definitely be convicted.

MR MKHIZE: There were other things that would be done to prevent him from conviction, apart from the death of Nati. I have already explained about cover-ups in here at the Commission there were other ways.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, let's - well, I suggest to you that the case of Nati is clearly an instance wherein you acted purely as a criminal with the aim of defeating the ends of justice and you shouldn't be granted amnesty in that regard.

MR MKHIZE: That is not how I view it, because if a criminal activity was done with an instruction of our authorities under the hit squad activity then, I do not therefore see any reason why it can be said that this is not politically connected. Especially because we know fully well that the plot was orchestrated because there was fighting going on with the ANC.

If I still remember very well I explained yesterday that the two movements, the ANC and the IFP were doing whatever within their power, anything to fight their enemies. And I have equally explained before the Commission here that things such as setting people up against one another; propaganda; killing; these were the kinds of strategies that were used in politics.

And we had here at Esikhawini arrived at a similar situation where we could use whatever at our disposal to undermine our enemy. And therefore there is no other reason that I can bring forward that could lead to Nati telling lies about Romeo, because indeed Romeo did not rob the vehicle.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that at the close of the trial in the Durban Supreme Court you admitted to the previous convictions? That will be pg 44, line 18 onwards? The previous conviction of assault common, and you received sentence of a fine of R800 or four months imprisonment. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Was that a political assault or it was just an ordinary, criminal assault?

MR MKHIZE: First of all I would like to say that that assault was not associated with what I was doing here at Esikhawini, because I was at Hammersdale at the time. That is why it was trialled at the Camperdown court.

MR NGUBANE: You were convicted in 1992, in 1992 you were convicted of malicious injury to property and you were sentenced to 12 months imprisonment fully suspended for five years. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct. Even though I was convicted in 1992, but it was not a crime committed in 1992, but it happened years earlier.

MR NGUBANE: Now Sir, I'm suggesting to you that you were given some political orders, and you abused those orders to exceed the bounds of your - in some instances to exceed the bounds of your mandate and harass community at large you know, as you pleased.

MR MKHIZE: What I can agree to here Mr Ngubane is that yes, it is true with reference to the ANC community. I may have harassed people. I may have hurt people, but that I think happened because of the kind of hatred that was incalcased (?) upon me. And therefore I cannot deny that I did that.

MR NGUBANE: And the incident on para 78 of your affidavit at Nkondane Shese's shebeen in H2 section, you referred to it yesterday. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now I got confused here. Is the shebeen Nkondane's shebeen or is it Paul Ngema's shebeen or they are one and the same thing?

MR MKHIZE: These are different people and Nkondane Shese's shebeen was at H2 section. And Paul Ngema's was at J1 section.

MR NGUBANE: I see. So you were having your drinks at Nkondane Shese's shebeen, not at Paul Ngema's shebeen.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now this shebeen was in H2, the area which you claim is an ANC area. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did you frequent the shebeen?

MR MKHIZE: I would sometimes go there because Nkondane's mother's surname is Mkhize as well, and I knew therefore that he would be my cousin. And I would go there because that would give me a chance to gather certain information, which information we may have wanted at the time.

MR NGUBANE: And Nkondane, was he an ANC man?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct. People who patronised the shebeen were ANC members. And he had his house within the ANC community. And that on its own explained the fact that he was towing the same ANC line.

MR NGUBANE: And the gentleman that drove you away after the fight, what was his name? Ali? Is it Ali Dlamini?

MR MKHIZE: Ali Khumalo.

MR NGUBANE: Ali Khumalo.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And did he also stay in H2 section?

MR MKHIZE: He stayed at my house with me.

MR NGUBANE: What was his status? Was he also a hit man or he was just an ordinary civilian?

MR MKHIZE: He knew nothing about politics and he is not even Khumalo. He is just a foreigner from say perhaps whose origin is Blantyre maybe.

MR NGUBANE: And that goes to confirm that in areas which you claim were Inkatha areas or ANC areas, there were neutral people of whom you knew stayed in that areas.

MR MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, would you please not confuse this? I explained yesterday that H2 is so big; there is one part I also referred to a garage and a place near the dipping area and some place further up near Mkoboza, but it's still H2. And I also spoke about this area near Nkodane. It is also H2. And these areas are far apart even though they are still in the same area. H2 is also part of Emakhanileni and be that as it may, we knew the borders. It is a very big section.

MR NGUBANE: But you confirm that Nkodane's shebeen was in the H2 area which you regarded as ANC area.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I confirm that.

MR NGUBANE: And if ANC areas were so volatile as you want the members of the Committee and the public to believe, you could easily have been surrounded and killed in that shebeen, because you were not ANC.

MR MKHIZE: I am not the only person who wants this Committee to believe that the situation was bad at Esikhawini. The death of people is self-explanatory. It indicates to the tension and how bad the situation was at Esikhawini. The large numbers of people dying there explains how the situation was.

Here we are still talking about people who died, being members of the ANC. We're not talking of people who died being members of the IFP. So that when we talk about people who died within the IFP as well, the number of people who died here can be multiplied several times.

I therefore am not one person who is trying to explain and worsen the situation by drawing a bad picture.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Mkhize what Mr Ngubane was getting at, is did you not realize or did you not consider that you yourself may have been killed in Nkondane's shebeen, merely because of the fact that you were not an ANC person and you were there in ANC territory in an ANC drinking place, and you were not ANC. Did you not consider yourself to be at great risk then, because of the situation you've explained?

MR MKHIZE: Now I understand the question Mr Chairperson. Yes, I knew fully well. But as I have explained that I had a task, a specific task of gathering what information we required. And secondly I trusted myself. I knew how to defend myself. I knew how to fight for myself. And it would not have been easy therefore to be killed just like that.

And also being a policeman, yes I knew very well that I was treading on a dangerous zone. I knew that well.

MR NGUBANE: Now you talked about Jerry Ndanda who was one of the members of your hit squad. Do you recall?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Was he a trained MK member who defected from the ANC into your fold?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that's the information I had.

MR NGUBANE: Did he defect during your activities - well, sorry - after your activities of killing people had started already at Esikhawini?

MR MKHIZE: I am not sure at what point in time he defected. But I think he may have defected earlier.

MR NGUBANE: Well, because I have instructions that this gentleman known as Bafana Jele was never at any stage known as Mtanda. In other words you and your colleagues - well, let me put it this way: your colleagues murdered the wrong person; not the person known as Mtanda.

MR MKHIZE: I cannot disagree with that. I really don't know. If there is information that we killed a wrong person, I cannot disagree with that. However, one person whom we intended killing was Mtanda.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that Bafana Jele, you couldn't identify him and even in the Supreme Court when you were given photographs you couldn't make him out?

MR MKHIZE: We identified him.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that Bafana Jele is amongst the four boys, namely Velenko Zini, Sipho Mzimela, Sibusizo Mdluli en Mosikwakwe Ngobo who were killed at Ngema's shebeen?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Members of the Committee, those names will appear on pg 4 of the Supreme Court record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: And I have instructions that in fact when those boys were shot at, they were not carrying any fire-arms. What's your comment?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know what guns Romeo and Constable Mthethwa and Israil came from. But I can say for a fact that these guns were not part of the guns in my syndicate. And I can assure you that when I got out of my car walking into Nbula's house, the guns were not in the car in which we were travelling. But on leaving Nbula's house after gunshots coming to them, there were guns then.

MR NGUBANE: What eventually became of those fire-arms?

MR MKHIZE: We put them in 12.

MR NGUBANE: With the leave of the Chairman and the Members of the Committee, can I ask one of the victims to come forward, to step forward to see whether he can recognise him or not?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Can I ask that Nkosinathi Jobe come forward please. If you could just stand there. Mr Mkhize, do you know this man?

MR MKHIZE: No, I don't.

MR NGUBANE: His name is Nkosinathi Jobe. And my instructions are that he was never involved in any political activity. And he was shot by you and Mbambo at Mzingwenya whilst he was walking alone from his place of employment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, what was that place called? Mzingwenya (spelt).

MR NGUBANE: Do you... [intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Is that the school Mr...?

MR NGUBANE: It's the area called Mzingwenya in Esikhawini.

MR MKHIZE: What I can say Mr Ngubane is that I take full responsibility of all what happened. If my brother here claims that he was shot by us, I cannot deny that. Because there were operations about which I have explained, operations which were not specifically to get to a particular person. It is now clear to me that he got hurt the same way, under the operations that I have explained, for reasons that I have explained. And therefore I accept and take full responsibility. I can see now that because of this, that is why he is like this today.

MR NGUBANE: He can step back Mr Chairman, thank you.

MS KHAMPEPE: What date are we alleging?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jobe, you can sit down.

MR NGUBANE: This incident Mr Mkhize occurred on the 20th of April 1992. You say you can't recall it.

MR MKHIZE: No, I don't.

MS KHAMPEPE: I would just like to interpose Mr Ngubane. Is Mzingwenya area an IFP or ANC stronghold to your knowledge Mr Mkhize?

MR MKHIZE: It is within the ANC.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, if I could just interpose here; it's obviously clear to everybody present, including yourself and the Committee that there's an enormous amount of information and detail that's come out here. And Mr Mkhize has been on the witness stand for a considerable length of time today. I would request if he could have a short break of five minutes just to regroup and order before questions continue, in order that he can be refreshed and to deal with the questions to the best of his ability.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No. In fact I've concluded my questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wills, we will take a short adjournment now and if you can kindly inform us, we'll take it for five minutes (indistinct) that you could just inform us please.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

DJ MKHIZE: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NGUBANE: Yes. Sorry Mr Chairman. I had concluded my questioning, but during the short break just one aspect for the purposes of clarification was brought to my attention. May I just pose two questions to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: (cont)

Now Mr Mkhize, you indicated that when the house of Begi Nthuli was attacked, there was one constable Nkwanaze who was present. Is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: Do you have his name?

MR MKHIZE: I have forgotten his name. But I know him well. I can identify him and his surname is Ndete Nkwanaze.

MR NGUBANE: Where was he stationed?

MR MKHIZE: He was stationed at the Esikhawini police station, and he was thereafter posted to guard Mbuyazi's house at J2.

MR NGUBANE: And the last time that you knew of him was when he was guarding that house or he was transferred at some other place. Can you assist?

MR MKHIZE: I know that he left for training at the Ulundi Police College as a fully-fledged policeman. The last I knew was that he was suspended because he had been discovered to have a criminal record. And he was therefore suspended.

I think I heard a rumour that they have however been successful and he is now a policeman somewhere.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. I am indebted to the Members of the Committee.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: It was indicated earlier that the brother of Sgt Khumalo had certain questions to ask. Is he present?

MR KHUMALO: I am present.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Could you please state your full names?

MR KHUMALO: Mr Chairman, my name is as follows: I am Leonard Mongene Khumalo. I stay in Esikhawini. Youngest brother of the deceased, Sgt Khumalo. I am actually here charged with the main duty of voicing a concern from the bereaved family members. And some of them are present among us here.

No 1, I would like to pose a few questions for clarity's sake before I continue with the rest of the questions. Mr MZ Khumalo and Dalothulo Ntuli mainly implicated here, how did they get themselves involved in the assassination of Sgt Khumalo?

MR MKHIZE: I explained the formation of the hit squad. I did not say that MZ Khumalo and Dalothulo were involved in the murder of Sgt Khumalo. But I described them as people who were involved in the formation of this hit squad. With reference to how they were involved. I think those are questions that could be directed to them, and then they could explain how they were involved.

MR KHUMALO: According to this document...

CHAIRPERSON: Which document are you referring to?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo could you put your mike on? That red light must be shining.

MR KHUMALO: Okay, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: It's pg 116, para 85.

MR KHUMALO: Mr Mkhize, you have just indicated that Sgt Khumalo (inaudible) was suspected by regarding Mzimela to be an ANC sympathiser. Is that true?

MR MKHIZE: What is written in the statement is true.

MR KHUMALO: Is it such as the time went on MZ Khumalo and Dalixolo Luthuli and Maj Langene once held a meeting in Ulundi where my brother, the deceased, was then suggested to be assassinated. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR KHUMALO: So in other words they were involved in actual fact in the assassination of my brother as far as your recent answer is concerned?

MR MKHIZE: I did not deny their involvement. They were. But I thought that maybe you - maybe I did not understand the question correctly. I thought maybe you mentioned that it was just the two of them who were involved in the planning of this crime. But it wasn't just the two of them. There were people like Maj Langene that he did not really mentioned.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) me including Maj Langene. What role did he play in the execution of my brother, Maj Langene?

MR MKHIZE: When I was in the counsel chambers the phone call that has been made by Mrs Mbuyazi and I was thereafter called to the phone, it was Maj Langene that I spoke to on the phone. And that was where I received the instruction that I should execute Khumalo. I got the instruction from Maj Langene himself.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) hierarchy. So Maj Langene was the top man to issue instructions to you to carry out.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct. The instruction to kill your brother was given to me by him.

MR KHUMALO: If Maj Langene ordered you to kill your own brother biologically, how would you have handled that?

MR MKHIZE: That is a very difficult question. I admit that it could have been difficult to kill my own brother.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) to concede that killing my own brother because he was not biologically related to you. In other words you were discriminative in a sense.

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not so. It was the political situation at that time. And moreover, if you have been present during these proceedings I explained that I could not refuse a command after it had been issued. Because refusing such a command was similar to committing suicide.

MR KHUMALO: So are you happy to realize the fact that you were not made to commit suicide, but you were made to kill my brother and as such you are still alive?

MR MKHIZE: I know how you feel about this. But as I said, I don't deny what you're saying. I don't deny what you think, and I know how wrong I was. And how much I wronged you.

MR KHUMALO: In other words you are actually telling this Commission, Truth Commission and the Committee involved that you are actually admitting the fact that the instruction you took from Maj Langene was completely unjustifiable for you to carry out.

MR MKHIZE: At the time I thought it was proper because of the entire situation that I have explained since Tuesday. But at this present moment as I appear before this Commission, let me not say since I am here now, but let me rather say since I've realized how wrong I was and what harm I had caused to the Esikhawini community, that is when I can then admit and agree with you.

MR KHUMALO: So in this case, what are your expectations from the bereaved family? What are your expectations? Could you please give us details? I believe you've applied for an amnesty of which my brother is part of, that you assassinated.

MR MKHIZE: I know that I expect that the family must hate me so much that they may wish to kill me themselves. I know that and I expect it. But I am happy that when I die, I would have told the entire truth to the community and to the Khumalo family.

MR KHUMALO: Is it true that you were a trained policeman?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is true.

MR KHUMALO: In terms of pursuing killings, is that acceptable for a responsible policeman to carry out within the community? Especially to the colleagues of his as you did?

MR MKHIZE: A policeman is expected to protect the community and to serve the community. But please understand that I am a policeman who was indoctrinated. If you were here when I was explaining about the Caprivi training, you will realize how much influence I had about ANC supporters and ANC sympathizers. Therefore the political situation at that time was responsible for the fact that I ended up not protecting the entire community; that there were such instances as the killing of your brother which I regret today.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) one of these paragraphs, I think para 85. Somewhere in 86. You indicated that at one stage Capt Masinga was sort-of a branch commander of the unit that was operating at Esikhawini. And at the same time it appears as if you were also operating under another unit. You were reporting to a number of units. You're reporting to branch commander, Capt Masinga and at the same time reporting to Maj Langene who was the head of the hit squad unit. Is that correct? That's how capable you were in executing your police duties.

MR MKHIZE: I will not deny what you say. It is as you say.

MR KHUMALO: Could you please elaborate as to what Capt Masinga said which led you to believe that Romeo was about to be arrested, which must have threatened you to pursue this assassination immediately? You must (inaudible) that you were the person who was running up and down to make sure that this assassination process does take place professionally and successfully.

MR MKHIZE: I will explain this. There was EN Masinga who was my commander, and MA Masinga who was Romeo's commander. Let us now talk about MA Masinga who was Romeo's commander at the CID unit. He is the person who called Romeo and informed him that he had knowledge that Romeo was involved in hit squad activities. As they went on with the discussion and Romeo was questioning how he had come about this information, Masinga told him that Sgt Khumalo had telephoned him and told him that you, Masinga, have hit squad members in your unit. And in the very near future there would be arrests of big fish that you wouldn't expect to be arrested, because this matter was being investigated.

This then corroborated with the information that Sgt Khumalo was in the practice of taking certain dockets to the ANC leadership, such dockets which contained hit squad activities.

That is how it happened.

MR KHUMALO: Could you explain to me why you could not make a clear distinction between these two captains in terms of your affidavit statement that you verified? Because here there is no indication as to which Masinga you are talking about. Now you are now giving me two Masinga's. But you want me to believe that what you're talking about is MA Masinga, yet it's not indicated here in this affidavit statement.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Khumalo, I think there is, if you check when you are at para 85, from the last sentence, I think about three lines thereafter you will see that there is mention of a branch commander,

"... (it's Capt MA Masinga)."

MR KHUMALO: Okay, thanks. Thanks a lot. So the assassination was based on the reality that Romeo was going to be arrested, or on a suspicion. Because as you are a policeman I believe you should have investigated that to come to a conclusion.

MR MKHIZE: It was not for me to investigate whether what Masinga said, was true or not. Capt Masinga as a police officer was not really in a position as far as I can see to speak about such sensitive matters in such a manner. I am not saying that what Masinga told Romeo was the truth or not. But what he said to Romeo confirmed the information that I have spoken about concerning these sensitive dockets.

MR KHUMALO: Mr Mkhize, so in other words you want to say to me that was just an ordinary suspicion because according to you, you did not investigate; you only took instruction. So it could have been a mere suspicion.

MR MKHIZE: I would not deny that.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) somebody else being assassinated.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that happened. But I explained the working of the hit squads. It was not my job to verify the truthfulness or not of the instructions.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) that Capt MA Masinga was the head of that hit squad, or he was running another unit.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the Capt Masinga was the head of the CID unit in which Romeo Mbambo operated when he was not operating in the hit squad. He was the head of the CID division at Esikhawini police.

MR KHUMALO: The person that you actually used to pull the trigger was not a member of the so-called Kwazulu police at that time?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not a member of the Kwazulu police.

MR KHUMALO: So what caused you not to take the initiative of pulling the trigger yourself? Because you were driving this person to and fro to make sure that you catch my brother wherever he was travelling between the vicinity of Esikhawini.

MR MKHIZE: It is difficult for me to explain why a certain person pulled the trigger and not another. But the decision that was taken in the car at that time as to who would squeeze the trigger was not affected by anything.

MR KHUMALO: So in other words you could have pulled the trigger yourself.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is true. Because the instruction had not been given.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) that you did not pull the trigger yourself because you were part and parcel of the whole process.

MR MKHIZE: There is nowhere that I am trying to excuse myself. He could have been shot by myself or Romeo or anybody else, because it had already been decided.

MR KHUMALO: Because my brother was a trained policeman, and yourself as well; you were also a policeman and Romeo who was also a trained policeman, would you say the assassination of my brother was politically motivated or not, since you were all policemen?

MR MKHIZE: We had never had a quarrel with Sgt Khumalo. If you follow my statements correctly they indicate that we had a problem accepting that he was involved in such activities. Therefore I am trying to explain that we did not have any grudge against him. We did not have any quarrels about money, about cars. There was no quarrel maybe about positions at work. We didn't even have a quarrel about women. There was nothing. We did not have any personal quarrel with him besides what I've already mentioned here.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) information that I have, what would your comments be on that one?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that would be a bit difficult to answer. If you say you've got information, what information?

MR KHUMALO: Apparently just before the burial of our brother we were then informed that there was once a conflict between you and him, and as such your colleague that you were trying to help, by all means to get my brother assassinated was involved in that conflict. Do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: No. That is not the truth. I never had a quarrel with Sgt Khumalo at all.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) here during these proceedings, should it happen that it is contrary or maybe it is inconsistent with the evidence that is going to be led by your colleague Romeo today or tomorrow or whenever, who do you expect us to believe?

MR MKHIZE: What I have written here is what I know happened. I think God also knows what happened. It might happen that some of the things that I wrote here do not necessarily corroborate because some of the things that I know may have been limited by things that I did not know. And I therefore am trying to say that I was not all by myself here. This involved people; my superiors. And we should also look at other things that led to the killing and assassination of these people. Because some of these reasons that may have led to the killing of people may not have been as genuine as we thought they were. But yes, I disagree that I had a quarrel with Sgt Khumalo. And I want to believe there is no police officer at Esikhawini that can testify to my having had a quarrel with Sgt Khumalo.

MR KHUMALO: In the event Mrs Mbuyazi, Maj Langene or one of them had been at loggerheads, were once at loggerhead with my brother which had nothing to do with politics, but it is this thing, they then decided to make use of that opportunity to engage you. Because you are very quick in putting things in place, in affecting things; putting things into action. Because you do not worry yourself in doing the investigation to find out whether that thing is true or false. Would you say the assassination was politically motivated? Because you have now just said before us here you did not worry yourself about doing the investigation; you simply carried out the instruction given to you. So had it been the case that the people who gave you the instruction had their own personal things, personal objectives to pursue other than politics or far outside politics, but it's just because you were very quick in implementing things, then they gave you instruction. What would you say on that one?

MR MKHIZE: I would say I would stick to my argument of political motivation because of the instruction that I received. But information that may have come beyond that, information that would indicate otherwise apart from political motivation, I therefore cannot say that you should direct that blame to me; that I did not investigate. But I do take the blame however that I killed a person under the conditions that I have just led.

MR KHUMALO: If we go back to the previous question that I asked you, the one that was related to the possibility had my brother been your own biological brother, would you have assassinated him, and you said no. Do you remember that you said that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said it was a difficult one to answer. He didn't directly say no; he said that is difficult to answer.

MR KHUMALO: Okay. Now you indicated in your affidavit statement that the docket was opened, and you were not charged or prosecuted. But you are here to ask for an amnesty. Yet justice was not given an opportunity to take its course or the law to take its course, and as such you were not punished. Now you are here just to escape that. What do you say on that?

MR MKHIZE: I am not here to escape justice. I gave three, if not four reasons as to why I am here. I still maintain that I am prepared to testify at any forum that may be brought together at any stage; a forum that would include my involvement in all these activities. Regardless of who is going to be implicated, I will continue to give the same testimony even though I know that that will endanger my life; knowing of course that I too will eventually die one day.

MR KHUMALO: If the people implicated by yourself, people like Mrs Mbuyazi, Capt Mzimela, Capt Langene, Romeo Mbambo, Dalixolo Luthuli, MZ Khumalo; if they were to be charged or prosecuted, would you still be in a position to become a State witness and lead the same evidence as you have done today and yesterday?

MR MKHIZE: If God still preserves me, I will do that without any hesitation. I will not doubt about doing that. And there will be nothing new that I would say apart from what I have said, contained in the document.

MR KHUMALO: If they totally denied to have given you such instructions, because as a trained policeman you were able to make a clear distinction between a justifiable instruction and an unjustifiable instruction; legal instruction and illegal instruction. If they say they never gave you that instruction, Maj Langene, Brig Mzimela, Mrs Mbuyazi, what would your reaction be?

MR MKHIZE: What I can say to you is that this panel here is a Commission; it is not a court of law. In a court of law - I'm happy because I can see you are educated - in a court of law they cannot shake me with the kind of evidence I have here. They cannot touch me with the evidence I have here. The court of law is not the same as the Commission. That is why you cannot even see them coming forward here to refute what I am saying here. They were also called at the court of law and they did not show up. They just sent legal representatives and that was all. People who were earning their salary to make a living. They would not come personally, because they cannot shake me with the kind of evidence I have here about these activities.

(AUDIENCE CLAP HANDS)

MR KHUMALO: I thank you for that impression that you are...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, please calm down. Please be quiet.

MR KHUMALO: I thank you for that impression that you are giving us. Therefore (indistinct).

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairperson, the speaker's mike is not on.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) this is a major concern from the part of the bereaved family. It's not - this should not be treated as a child's play, this is not a game causing us to lose our brother, the breadwinner in the family who happened to have a number of children who are completely bereaved. And he was the leader in our family. So it was an irreparable harm that we suffered; that we are suffering.

Did you know at the time of carrying out the assassination that what you did was against God?

MR MKHIZE: I have indicated a number of times that there is no justified killing. But the thing is how is the person's conscience working at the time. I can therefore say that my conscience failed to serve me well at the time. And that is not the same as the time under which we are living now. And therefore I am now engaged in introspection.

MR KHUMALO: I understand what you are saying; I regard it as a mere comment. My question is: at that time of pursuing the assassination of my brother were you aware that such deed was against God or not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was aware.

MR KHUMALO: Now since you are aware at the time, if you are given an amnesty, what would you convince us on that you have repented or you are likely not to kill people? Because you knew at that time that it was against God. God that was existing at that time is still existing and tomorrow He'll still be existing, the same God. Then it's likely that you will be pursuing the same activities.

MR MKHIZE: The conscience, a person, a human being has conscience. Yes, I knew at the time that God is alive, as much as I know now. But my conscience at the time was not a humane conscience. It was a beastly conscience. The kind of conscience that I have now was restored by God and that is the humane conscience which I did not have then.

There is one guarantee or assurance that I can give you now: that my conscience had clearly deserted me. But now I have restored my conscience which directs me from my wrongs and against all bad things I did.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) that the situation that we are in; it's easy to put yourself in a situation where we'll find ourselves being trapped into our shoes and we feel exactly the same, which you are not in the true sense of the story.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't quite understand the question. Did you...?

MR KHUMALO: So what I am saying is... [intervention]

INTERVENTION: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR KHUMALO: What I am saying is the situation that you are trying to put forward, that you were in which caused you to do such evil things like assassinating my brother and others, that particular deed of yours you did it after you had been given numerous offers like going to Caprivi, being offered more money and so on and so on. And even tomorrow this world is like that; it will be giving you more and more offers. And I mean what is your comment on that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question, are you saying Mr Khumalo is that in the event of amnesty being granted you may be subjected to temptation again, to find yourself in a repeat type of situation and end up killing people again. What do you say to that? I think that is the thrust of the question Mr Khumalo is posing.

MR KHUMALO: Exactly Mr Chairman. Thanks.

MR MKHIZE: I think I am known countrywide by now because of what I did. I did those horrendous things firstly because I was in a position of authority within the police force. And therefore if I were to be granted amnesty I would not be in the same position as I was then. Secondly there is no-one who would not be observing my movements worldwide.

I cannot go and reside in a place without being identified as Ngina Mkhize. The media has beamed my face throughout the country. And this affects my life. Therefore it means my life can equally be monitored by a small child. Children can also identify me and therefore I don't see myself coming back to do the same things.

And also the people who had influence on me are no longer there. But the most important thing is the conscience that prevails in me; the conscience in which I trust.

I would like to go back to society to prove to them that a person is capable of changing. I would like to show them what talents and abilities I have, so that these could be used constructively within the society and the community in which I live.

I don't have a formula now as to what I am going to do to gain all these things. But that which comes from the bottom of my heart suggests that those are things that I have to do to repay the society.

I have also indicated this to my legal representative. I actually asked him if there isn't any help or assistance that I can engage in, knowing that the TRC has a Reparation Committee. We know that people qualify in different ways so that they can get those financial assistances.

I was told that the compensations range between R17 000 and R23 000. I am therefore prepared that of all the people who are here, I am also prepared to make statements about one individual after another, that they died for political reasons and therefore they should qualify to get those compensations.

I know that even though such a thing can happen, these people cannot be restored back into life. That is just a tiny bit that can reflect my commitment. If I had the ability, I would fork out whatever amount I had to assist these families. But I don't have the financial capacity to do that.

MR KHUMALO: Mr Chairman, if you could allow me, could I please make my submission on behalf of the bereaved family, and thereafter I'll just make a few comments. And I will then have concluded my questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khumalo.

MR KHUMALO: Thank you.

Firstly Mr Chairman, the bereaved family would like all the implicated parties be subpoenaed to challenge the evidence led by Mr - so that we could actually verify the evidence led by Mr Mkhize. Because to the family there is no way we find that the assassination was politically motivated. It was just a misunderstanding between the police in the execution of their functions. They were not trusting one another and as such they decided to assassinate one another in case there was any suspicion.

In that regard we would like to have all implicated parties be subpoenaed. That is Brig Mzimela, Maj Langeni, Mrs Mbuyazi and the rest.

And the other thing we would like to have, to allow the law to take its course as far as the docket that was opened is concerned. It must be re-opened and as such to allow these people who avail themself to fall in, so that we see and challenge the evidence within that.

And there is no way that as the bereaved members will believe that assassination taking place between the members of the police which is supposed to be serving its own nation at that time betrayed one another. And killing, even in the Bible or by God is totally condemned. And prosecution of all implicated, plus yourself, Mr Khize and your colleagues has not taken place where the docket was opened.

We want to see justice or the law taking its course accordingly in this matter. The deceased, that is Sgt Khumalo, did not give us any opportunity to give us a mandate as to what to say here and not to say here.

You are lucky Mr Mkhize that you are alive and you can lead evidence the way it suits you. But our brother is not available here on earth to put his case forward as you have done.

At the funeral of our brother the members of the Kwazulu police concerned participated unbelievably. They were all showing their interest, showing their sympathy; their empathy with the whole family. Even Brig Mzimela was one of the people who actually contributed a goat. According to our culture Mr Chairman, when somebody has died there is a lot of slaughtering that takes place just to get people to get meat and the rest of the eating that has to take place. So he was the first one to contribute that. But today he is the same person who is implicated by Mr Mkhize.

And the rest of the members participated in that funeral. They wanted us to believe that the killers were not among the hit squad within their operation. And today it is clearly showing that our brother was assassinated by his colleagues. And no politics involved.

On these notes I beg to close Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Khumalo. I see that it is now four o'clock and time for these proceedings to draw to a close today. I'd just like to announce that tomorrow if it's convenient we'll commence again at half past nine in the morning, but unfortunately tomorrow's proceedings will only last until one o'clock. Certain persons has to catch the flight out of Richards Bay which leaves shortly after two; so we'll adjourn at one o'clock tomorrow. Then we'll be here the following week for the whole week and hopefully we'll start again after tomorrow's session at half past nine on Monday.

So at this stage I'll adjourn the proceedings now till half past nine tomorrow.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS