CHAIRPERSON: We proceed to hear the matter of Ian Ndzamela and Pumzile Mayapi. Just for the record, the next matter is the applications of I N Ndzamela, amnesty reference AM 5051/97 and P Mayapi, amnesty reference AM 5247/97.
Mr Ntanunu, do you want to go on record?
MR NTANUNU: Thank you, Honourable Chair. Before we start we would like to thank the Honourable Chair, together with the Members of the Panel for fitting us in. We also thank counsels for both the victims and applicants in the matter which has just been stood down.
Honourable Chair and Honourable Members, I have prepared here an affidavit which has been deposed to by Pumzile Mayapi, who is the applicant in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you to just hold there a bit. I just want first of all, just to put yourself on record and then I'll allow the other parties to go on record and then we can come back to the nitty gritty.
MR NTANUNU: Thank you very much, Honourable Chair. May I be on record that I appear for the two applicants herein, that is Pumzile Mayapi and Ndibulele Ndzamela. Thank you very much, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ntanunu. Mr Jaco?
MR JACO: I am appearing for Mrs Ntakana.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mrs Ntakana?
MR JACO: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Miss Wild?
MS WILD: Thank you, Sir. I appear here for Miss Jessie Jade Hudson, who is the daughter of the late Mr Anthony Hudson. I'd just like to place on record the thanks that the family would like to give to the Commission for allowing them to attend and for also paying for their air tickets to enable them to be here. Ms Hudson is 17 years old, she'll be 18 in July. Thank you so much.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Wild. Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. I wish at this stage that I'm assisting Mrs Lillian Dlamini. Her late son, Wilfred Dlamini was a victim in this matter. And that at this stage there is no formal opposition, but the position may change later.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel, that is noted. Yes, Mr Ntanunu, now you can proceed.
MR NTANUNU: Thank you, Honourable Chair and Members of the Panel. This in an application of course in terms of the relevant Section 18 of the Reconciliation Act, and it is in respect of both Pumzile Mayapi and Ndibulele Ndzamela. There is an affidavit to which Pumzile Mayapi has deposed to. And for the sake of gravity and ...(indistinct), I would like perhaps to read that into the mike, into the record so that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, just to interrupt you, Mr Ntanunu. Are there two applications by two - sorry, two affidavits? I want to have them marked for the record, are there two of them?
MR NTANUNU: There are two affidavits, Honourable Chair, one by Pumzile Mayapi and a confirmatory affidavit by Ndibulele Ndzamela. So there are two, Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, I assume that the parties have that.
MR NTANUNU: Yes, everybody has been placed ...
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. In that case we will mark the affidavit of Mr Mayapi as Exhibit A and that one of Mr Ndzamela as Exhibit B. You may proceed, Mr Ntanunu.
MR NTANUNU: Thank you, Honourable Chair. May I read the affidavit by Mayapi as it is?
"I, the undersigned, Pumzile Mayapi, do hereby declare under oath that one, I am the deponent herein and the facts deposed to are, unless otherwise stated, within my personal knowledge both true and correct. This is an application in terms of Section 18 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act 34 of 1995, and my reference number is AM 5247/97. The application in question is in respect of the bombing of the Wild Coast Casino, in the district of Bizana on the 18th of April 1986, and the subsequent loss of lives and personal injuries. I have been mandated by Ndibulele Ndzamela to depose on his behalf too. He has also made an application under Section 18 of the abovementioned Act, and his reference number is AM 5051/97.
Both myself and Ndzamela were members of MK, the military wing of the African National Congress, and we both did the said bombing of the casino, acting within the ambit of the political objectives of the said African National Congress.
Myself, Ndzamela and the late China, who was also an MK member, were deployed in the Eastern Pondoland region, under the command of the late Mzizi Bilo Makwageza. And he is the person who had ordered the bombing of the Wild Coast Casino. May I also mention that this order came after a senseless massacre of our people by the South African Defence enemy forces in Lesotho, in the beginning of 1986.
I must also mention that we have been charged and convicted on two counts of murder and sabotage in respect of this matter. We were similarly sentenced to death and that sentence was replaced with 18 years imprisonment on appeal, and we were subsequently released when there was a general amnesty which was granted to all political prisoners in February of 1990.
I now wish to deal specifically with the bombing of the Wild Coast Casino.
The order from the command structure to bomb the Wild
Coast Casino, came with the late China about a week before
the incident. He also came with the two limpet mines that
were to be used for the operation, or in the operation.
Three days before the operation we did a reconnaissance of
the place in question. On the day of the operation I
borrowed a motor vehicle from a friend of mine, Mr
Kobungu. We drove to Mzamba, that is the Wild Coast
Casino. It was myself, Ndzamela and the late China. We
carried with ourselves the two limpet mines that were to be
used in the operation and also had our pistols with us. I,
together with Ndzamela entered the casino, leaving China in
the car. Ndzamela entered the gambling area first and
placed the big limpet mine underneath the sewerage pipe of
the toilet. He came out and told me where he had placed
the mine and I entered and placed my limpet mine on top of
his. The time was about 19H00, and it was estimated that
the mine would explode in about three hours time
thereafter. We then left the place for Nxingo(?) locality,
where we were staying.
I submit with respect, that our actions abovementioned were committed with a political objective, and further, that there was no personal gain on our part.
I further submit that we have made a full disclosure of the events that occurred on that day, as is required by the Act. I also further submit that our actions abovementioned were committed before the cut-off date.
Now to the families of the deceased and to all those who might have been affected and/or inconvenienced in one way or another by our actions, we sincerely apologise and ask for forgiveness. We plead with them for their understanding. I therefore pray that it may please this Honourable Amnesty Committee to grant this application."
MR NTANUNU: Thank you, Honourable Chair. May I just proceed to ask some questions from Mr Mayapi?
CHAIRPERSON: No, in fact I'll have to let him take the oath, but would you want to do that or would you want to proceed just to read the other affidavit also into the record? It's entirely up to you. If you want to proceed to Mr Mayapi, then I will let him take the oath.
MR NTANUNU: I think I'd better read the other affidavit of Ndzamela, Honourable Chair. Thank you very much for that. Honourable Chair and Honourable Members, there is also the confirmatory affidavit to which Ndzamela has deposed. Ndzamela is the one who has been mentioned in paragraph 4 of Mayapi's affidavit, Exhibit A. I will relate
"I, the undersigned, Ndibulele Ndzamela, do hereby declare under that (1)
I am the deponent herein and the facts deposed to are within my personal knowledge both true and correct. I have applied for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act 34 of 1995, and my reference number is AM5051/97. The affidavit of Pumzile Mayapi has been read and interpreted to me. I confirm all that appears therein. I also further pray that it may please this Honourable Amnesty Committee to grant this amnesty application."
Those are the affidavits, Honourable Chair and Honourable Members, to which the two applicants have deposed.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ntanunu. Before I proceed to let Mr Mayapi take the oath - Miss Patel, there are some other documents here, it just occurs to me now there is some statement which was made to the police and something else as well. Is this part of the record?
MS PATEL: Are you referring to the statements by other victims whom you've not managed to trace, Honourable Chairperson, is that what you are referring to?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll give you the names that I have here, but a Martha Boshoff and Wishlo Nowak. Is that supposed to be part of the papers or what?
MS PATEL: Yes, Honourable Chairperson, these are included mainly for the possibility, or for purposes of R&R on the possibilities of the case.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, in that event then we are going to mark them as well, just not to get our lines crossed. I just want to see exactly what it is. Oh yes, there are three - yes, the two are affidavits and the other one seems to be a statement by Mrs Ntakana. We'll mark the affidavit of Martha Boshoff as Exhibit C and the affidavit of Wishlo Nowak as Exhibit D and the statement of Margaret Ntakana as Exhibit E. I assume that all the parties have copies of this in their possession. It might or might not be material.
Mr Ntanunu, do you want me to administer the oath to Mr Mayapi?
MR NTANUNU: Yes, please, Honourable Chair.
PUMZILE MAYAPI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Yes, Mr
Ntanunu?
EXAMINATION BY MR NTANUNU: Thank you very much, Honourable Chair and Honourable Members of the Amnesty Committee.
Mr Mayapi, just some few things. In the affidavit to which you have deposed, we haven't talked about whether you later heard that there had in fact been an explosion or not, that it in fact did go off, can you comment on that?
MR MAYAPI: Will you please repeat your question, Sir.
MR NTANUNU: I was saying, in the affidavit to which you have deposed, there is no mention of you hearing that the limpet mines you put in the toilet in the casino did in fact explode as you had planned.
MR MAYAPI: It is true that no mention is made concerning that part in the affidavit, but about the explosion it was heard through the newspapers, that there was an explosion.
MR NTANUNU: Now you have indicated, Mr Mayapi, that you had placed the limpet mines, two limpet mines under a sewerage pipe, can you just perhaps tell the Honourable Amnesty Committee and everybody who is here, to whom, at what did you aim the said explosion of those mines? What did you have in particular, what did you have in mind in particular in placing those two mines under the pipe in that toilet?
MR MAYAPI: In this incident the purpose was to make a statement from our part as the freedom fighters. We wanted to make a statement to show that after all the events that took place before this explosion and the situation in the whole country. There was a need, as the ANC had instructed that the message that will come out of this battle should be heard in the whole country. That is why we had to embark on this plan of the Wild Coast Casino, to show the people that the ANC and MK are existing and they are alive and they do have the authority to respond or do something whenever necessary. Thank you.
MR NTANUNU: Okay, thank you. Now in your affidavit mention has been made of the fact that you were acting under the command, it was the command structure, and you've mentioned Mazibu Xgeza(?) as the person who was your commander. Now I'm not a military man and do not know the consequences or the roles insofar as carrying out of commands given to you by your commander. Can you just briefly tell the Honourable Amnesty Committee what one is supposed to do when he is in fact given a command of the nature you were given.
MR MAYAPI: First of all, if you join the military - I want to talk specifically about our own organisation, Umkhonto weSizwe, we were told that the military work, according to commands, we called those commands "the orders" in the army language. That is how the things are done once you are committed as a member of that army.
There is normally a hierarchy in the army you know, who is above you, up to the highest level of the hierarchy. You are a combatant, a disciplined one. You are obliged that if an order has been issued, you have to execute or carry out and do what it says. That is the procedure in the structure of the army.
MR NTANUNU: Thank you very much, Mr Mayapi. Just one last aspect. You have been informed that in the explosion ...(indistinct) a small boy of about 12 years, if I'm not making a mistake, passed away and further, that Mr Hudson who had apparently gone there as a visitor at ...(indistinct), also passed away, and further that there were some other people who were injured in the explosion in question. You heard that?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, that is correct, I heard about that.
MR NTANUNU: Now we have got amongst us here, I think the mother of the boy in question is around us here and also the doctors of Mr Hudson, who passed away in the incident, are also here and many other people who are related to those who passed away and also those who were injured. Now how do you feel and what can you say to them? How do you feel about all this and what can you say to them?
MR MAYAPI: First of all, I would like to thank you for this opportunity that was offered to me by the TRC, to create a situation whereby I could come and see the people who encountered a loss during this incident, so as to see them face to face and be able to say to them we humbly apologise about this. I'm so happy to see them. I haven't seen them before. I did not know them. I am asking for forgiveness from them and I know it's going to be difficult for them, but I am humbly requesting them to understand the situation that was prevailing at the time in South Africa, that it was a situation that was beyond description. I am certain that almost in each and every third family in South Africa, each and every third family has been affected by this conflict in South Africa.
I want to talk about this incident. Our mission was not aimed at them as families. As I've already explained, we did not even know them, but it was a situation that was prevailing at the time and that was beyond anyone's control. I will end there. I want to say to them I am asking for forgiveness.
MR NTANUNU: Now lastly, Mr Mayapi, is there anything perhaps which you would like to add on what you have deposed to in the affidavit and also what I've led you in?
MR MAYAPI: At the moment I think that there is nothing else that I would like to add, but if anyone would like to get any clarification concerning the affidavit, I will be willing to assist there. Thank you.
MR NTANUNU: Thank you, Honourable Chair, I think that is all in respect of Mr Mayapi.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTANUNU
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Ntanunu.
Mr Mayapi, just for the record, you confirm the contents of your application and of Exhibit A, the affidavit as well?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Jaco, have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JACO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I just have a few questions for Mr Mayapi.
Can you tell this Committee, Mr Mayapi, why did you choose the casino as your target?
MR MAYAPI: Thank you, Sir. First of all I would like this Committee to know that this incident took place in 1986, at a time that I am sure that everyone knows that a conflict between the freedom fighters, or liberation movements and the government was at a high level.
This took place at a time when the movement that was leading the battle of the South African freedom fighters said South Africa should be rendered ungovernable. That means that each and every institution that was seen as the ANC, as the extension of the oppressors in South Africa, that particular institution would automatically become a target. These gambling casinos, all of them - or let me talk about this one in particular. This was in the homeland of Transkei.
This casino was an ivory tower that was so clear that this casino of Wild Coast, its presence in that particular place made it possible that there would be complaints from the people who were residing there, that that casino was there without any consultation with the people or community.
Secondly, this casino was a place that was clear for one to see that it was there for people who would, during the battle in South Africa, who would ...(indistinct) for people to go there and relax, people who would go there and relax without knowing what was happening in this country. Even the people who were employed there were the people who were working under the extreme oppression. Even the few people who were offered jobs there were the people who were oppressed. That is why I say that under those circumstances it became clear that this particular casino, after grievances or complaints from the liberation movement, had become a target.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Jaco.
Mr Mayapi, in my reading of your affidavit, paragraph 6, I thought it was the decision of Mzizi Bilo Makwageza(?), that the casino should be bombed. Were you part of this decision?
MR MAYAPI: Let me respond like this. Yes, Mr Makwageza was a commander, as explained in my affidavit, but as a commander he would sometimes ask for other people's opinions as to how the target is. That is why I'm saying this is the definition that I had. Yes, the order was coming from Mr Makwageza, it's true.
MR JACO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now in paragraph 9 of your affidavit you state that your actions were committed with a political objective, can you explain that? What political objective did you want to achieve?
MR MAYAPI: As I've already explained, as the soldiers who were fighting for freedom it used to be our duty to make known that the organisation that is protecting the oppressed is existing. If there were complaints or if there are complaints from the people about this casino it became necessary to give support or power to the people who were there, that led to this type of an incident.
I can say that after this incident our objectives were fulfilled solely because even the workers in the casino after that stood up and their eyes were opened and they could see that they can get some assistance, because in the early '90's there was a great change as far as the workers were concerned in that particular casino.
MR JACO: Right. Again in your affidavit, paragraph 9, you state that there was no personal gain on your part, can you explain that, what do you mean by that?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, that is true. If we were involved in the battle fighting for freedom, we were there not expecting any personal gain, but we were doing this under the organisation which we knew was there for the needs of the people who were oppressed in South Africa.
MR JACO: Again in paragraph 6 of your affidavit you state that you acted under the command of the later Makwageza, is that correct?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, that is correct.
MR JACO: Can you tell this Committee what was this command?
MR MAYAPI: This command said something should take place at the Wild Coast Casino, in the sense that it should be known that there is someone who can listen to the complaints of the people, therefore limpet mines were to be used.
MR JACO: Thank you, that is all, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JACO
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Wild(?), any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILD: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.
As I understand what you're saying the ANC viewed the Kerzner's casinos as a legitimate target, is that correct?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?
MS WILD: Yes. The ANC viewed Kerzner's casinos as a legitimate target, is that correct?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, that is correct.
MS WILD: They undoubtedly did so because they formed a very strong component of the economic viability of the homelands, is that correct?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please speak a bit slower so that the interpreter can interpret?
MS WILD: Is it correct that the casinos formed a very significant component of the economic viability of the homelands?
MR MAYAPI: I would like to disagree with that statement because in our opinion we saw it, we saw this casino as something that was there for the minority, more especially when it comes to the economy. The majority of the people, even the people who were staying nearer, there was nothing much that they were gaining by the existence of this casino.
MS WILD: Thank you. No, we're not at difference, what I'm trying to say to you is, it was a very important part of apartheid structure, in keeping the homelands alive, isn't that what the ANC believed? The casinos were a significant component of the homelands to keep apartheid alive by having the homelands, isn't that right?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, that is correct.
MS WILD: No with respect to the orders that you were given, did you have any opportunity to make input with regard to those orders or to refuse those orders?
MR MAYAPI: The time to make an input to say yes or no, you can get that opportunity in the sense that you are also a soldier, but as a human being you have an opportunity to use your own initiative, you can see that this unreasonable or this one is reasonable. You also get that kind of an opportunity.
MS WILD: Well having regard to that, wouldn't it have been more damaging to have made your presence felt and your organisation's message felt, by for example perpetrating a malicious injury to the property of the roulette wheels of the casino, which are very expensive components? Wouldn't that have been a far more appropriate thing to have done?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question and will you please speak a bit slower.
MS WILD: I'm asking whether it would not have been more appropriate if one wished to achieve the objectives that were set about, to have destroyed the roulette wheel and perpetrated malicious injury to property at the casino than to have planted a bomb which injured civilians and which killed the late Mr Hudson, whose daughters I represent?
MR MAYAPI: The purpose was to destroy this casino building, but because of the weapons or instruments that we had we had to use this limpet mine and we had to place it in a place where we knew that at least that particular spot wouldn't be frequented by people. The aim was to destroy the building or the property of the casino, not the people. That is why had placed that limpet mine in that position.
MS WILD: I'd just like to direct to you the fact that I've spoken to Ms Hudson, she's the young lady who is sitting behind me here, she's 17. She never really knew her father, but she would like to thank you for being as frank as you have been and she'd like to indicate that she does feel willing to forgive you, that's at this stage you, she's hasn't heard your colleague yet. Thank you.
MR MAYAPI: Thank you. I am so thankful that she understands the fact that this was not aimed at her father.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wild. Ms Patel, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I will be brief.
Mr Mayapi, you state in paragraph 8.2 of your application, not of your application, sorry, of your supplementary affidavit, that the place was reconnoitred or:
"We reconnoitred the place three days before the operation"
Does "we" include you and who else?
MR MAYAPI: I am referring to myself, my colleague, Ndibulele and my late colleague China.
MS PATEL: On what basis was the toilet chosen as a spot on which to plant the bomb or the limpet mine?
MR MAYAPI: As I'm saying, after the reconnaissance was done we, during the reconnaissance we realised that at least this toilet was not as frequented, there was a great possibility that during the explosion there would be no-one in that toilet. There was that possibility.
Secondly, there was no other way of getting right into the casino as we were not workers or employers there. We wouldn't be seen in the other corners of this casino without being suspected.
MS PATEL: But this was a public toilet, Sir, on what basis do you say that there was no possibility that no-one would be in the toilet at the time that the bomb was predetermined to go off at? I mean you say you set the bomb, the time you left the bomb there was 7 o'clock and it was timed to go off three hours afterwards, which is 11 o'clock, which in terms of I guess casino operational times, it would still be fairly early and there would still be people around.
MR MAYAPI: That is why I say we made note, we reconnoitred the place and we realised that at least at about 10 o'clock the casino is not as busy as at 7 or 8 o'clock. That is what we learnt during the reconnaissance.
MS PATEL: Did you at the time when you placed the limpet mine, reconcile yourself with the possibility that people might be injured?
MR MAYAPI: Yes, it is so, there would be people there. I wish that you can understand this situation. Say for instance a person who is going to attack the police station, when he arrives there as a cadre of an organisation, when he gets in that police station and it so happens that unfortunately there are civilians who are there to lodge their complaints, they get affected. Shortly, or briefly I want to say it is not easy in a war situation to act with caution because it is a situation that is always full of uncertainty, you cannot be that accurate.
MS PATEL: Alright, thank you, Mr Mayapi. I just wish to inform you that the person whom I'm assisting at this hearing, Mrs Dlamini, is the mother of the caretaker of that specific part of the casino and it is a tragedy that the person or the people whom you say you had hoped to uplift, were in fact the victims of your act. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel. Has the Panel any questions? Mr Ntanunu, any re-examination?
MR NTANUNU: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you very much.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NTANUNU
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want Mr Mayapi to be excused?
MR NTANUNU: No, Honourable Chair, I wouldn't like Mr Mayapi to be excused because I just want to Mr Ndzamela to take an oath and just lead him so that we get excused ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean from the witness stand, for the moment.
MR NTANUNU: Oh, I understand.
CHAIRPERSON: I'll excuse him from the witness stand, not from the proceedings.
MR NTANUNU: Sorry, sorry, Mr Chair, yes of course, yes of course. Thank you, Honourable Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED
