CHAIRPERSON: It is Friday 30th April 1999, the continuation of the amnesty applications of Jimmy Nokuwasana and others. The parties are as previously indicated as well as the Panel. Mr Kincaid, who is the next applicant?
MR KINCAID: Mr Chairperson, I intend calling Rhandile Bhayi, applicant AM 0122/96.
RHANDILE BHAYI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Bhayi, I'll refer to you as Rhandile, are you comfortable with that?
MR BHAYI: No I don't have a problem with that.
MR KINCAID: The incidents for which you seek amnesty relate to convictions on count 1 of the robbery of a 12 bore shotgun from Mr Hansel. Count 2, malicious damage to Mr Hansel's
property in that you cut his telephone wires. Count 3, the attempted murder of Mr Cobus. Count 4, housebreaking with intent to rob Mr Cobus. Count 5, malicious damage to Mr Cobus' property in that you cut his telephone wires. Count 7, the attempted murder of Mr Pretorius. Count 8, housebreaking in that you broke into the home of Mr Senti. Count 9, malicious property to Mr Senti's property in which you broke his window and count 10, malicious damage of Mr Pretorius' property in that you cut his telephone wires.
Rhandile, is it your contention that these convictions were improper and were not founded in fact or in law or do you accept that you were correctly convicted of these crimes?
MR BHAYI: I was not wrongly accused or wrongly convicted.
MR KINCAID: At the time of the commission of these crimes Rhandile, you were 16 years of age is that correct?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: You lived in the Kabusi Township, Stutterheim and you lived in amongst the conflict and the tensions of community life which has been described to this Committee by your co-applicant Jimmy Nokawusana. Do you confirm Jimmy's portrayal of everyday community life in Stutterheim during that time period?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: Jimmy testified to a shooting at the Matamela Church Hall in Stutterheim in December of 1989. Were you present at that meeting Rhandile?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: And Jimmy's description of events there, are they accurate, is it an accurate portrayal of what happened?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: What kind of emotions did this violent dispersal of the meeting instil in you, what did it cause you to feel, to think?
MR BHAYI: This whole situation effected me.
MR KINCAID: In what way, Rhandile?
MR BHAYI: I did not like what the police did there and as I was looking at it I did not like it.
MR KINCAID: Usanda and Moago say that they were very angry at what at happened there, did you likewise experience emotion of anger?
MR BHAYI: I was also very angry.
MR KINCAID: The consequence of that shooting, there were two meetings held in the Kabusi Township on the soccer field. Did you attend those meetings, either one or both of them?
MR BHAYI: I attended one of them.
MR KINCAID: Which one was that?
MR BHAYI: The one that was on the playground, the one that was at the playground.
MR KINCAID: Jimmy's evidence was that at the meeting held on the soccer field a decision was taken to target the farmers to take arms from them, violently if necessary and to intimidate them off their lands. Were you aware of that decision, Rhandile?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: Did you in consequence of that decision then form part of the group which attacked Mr Hansel on his farm?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: And can you tell the Committee, Rhandile, what your role was, what you did during that attack? There have been other applicants who have testified to the broader detail of the attack but can you specify your personal involvement?
MR BHAYI: I would like to first understand whether you are referring to the decision when the decision was taken at the hall or you are talking about the incident where we were getting to Mr Hansel's property. Which one are you referring to?
MR KINCAID: I've moved from the church hall shooting to the subsequent meeting and what I wish to know from you now is that you testify ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kincaid just a minute?
Can I ask you not to read your paper here, please?
Carry on.
MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairman.
I asked you whether you were aware of the decision to target the farmers and you said you were and then I asked you whether you formed part of the group which attacked Mr Hansel on his farm. Can you confirm that?
MR BHAYI: Yes I was present.
MR KINCAID: Rhandile, can you tell the Committee what your role was, what you personally did during that attack?
MR BHAYI: We went to Mr Hansel's house. When we arrived there we surrounded the house. After doing that the other members of our group got inside. Within a moment one of them came, she called us through the window telling us to come inside the house. I got inside with the others. When I got into the room where it was used as the owner as his bedroom, I found him covered in blood and there were people who were surrounding him. What I heard there being said by the people they were looking for weapons from him, they wanted weapons from him. The role that I played there, I was armed with a hammer. I hit him with the hammer because I wanted him to give us the firearms. I hit him three times on his back with the hammer. I kicked him while sitting on his bed. In that process we searched the house looking for weapons because he was refusing to tell us where the weapons were and he did not want to give us the weapons. We kept on searching the house. I reached a dressing table if I'm not mistaken. I opened there, as I was looking for a firearm but unfortunately I did not get anything there. We went on with the search in the house and we even went to the other rooms looking for the weapons.
MR KINCAID: The annexure to the charge sheet alleged that there were items removed from the house such as a radio, an alarm clock, a wrist watch, trousers, shoes, bedding, keys, torches, items which by no manner or means related to weaponry or arms or ammunition. Those items were taken from Mr Hansel, the evidence was at trial, do you know anything about the removal of this property? Did you involve yourself with taking any of the property, did you see any other of the group take such property?
MR BHAYI: I did not see anything of that nature, anyone in possession of such items. I also did not take anything like that.
MR KINCAID: When you attacked Mr Hansel, did you do so motivated by ill will or spite or any personal malice that you bore him?
MR BHAYI: No, that is not correct.
MR KINCAID: Rhandile, the next incident was the attack on Mr Cobus' farm. Were you part of the group that had attacked Mr Cobus' farm and him?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: Can you tell the Committee just how you involved yourself in the attack on Mr Cobus, what you did?
MR BHAYI: We went to a house, we went to the servants quarters, we knocked there with the aim of getting a person who would assist us, direct us as to where the man's house was, the farmhouse was because we did not know where the farmhouse was situated.
We borrowed a pliers, we knocked there at that house but they refused, that is the servant's house, they refused to open for us. We insisted until such time they opened the door. When they opened, as we were knocking there someone enquired, asked who, he wanted to know who was knocking at the door. We told that person that we were comrades from Tanzania, we wanted to get to the farmhouse. They opened the door and we got inside. We asked them to direct us to the farmhouse. We borrowed the pliers with the aim of cutting the telephone wire.
We left that house, we went straight to the farmhouse. When we arrived there we saw a pole, a telephone pole. One of us climbed up the pole, that was Inzunzi Manatoza and then he cut the telephone wire. Having cut the telephone wire we went to the main house, we knocked there. I was also there I was among the people who were knocking there, we were knocking at the door.
Melvin Nkosana was the one who was talking at the door. He knocked and he said we were visitors, we were paying Mr Eric Cobus a visit. When he heard the voice, when he detected that the people who were talking outside there were Xhosa people he said "I'm not going to open the door because I'm afraid you're going to shoot me" and he said that - he started firing. Melvin got a broom from the veranda. He knocked with that broom hitting the window with that broom.
We went to the other side of the house, to the other side at the front of the house and we saw a window there, bathroom window that was closed. It had some net, a thin net, it was covered in a thin net and we pulled that net, we pushed the window up and we got inside. The other people, the others were still surrounding the house. When we got inside the house we heard gunshots. They were heard from the direction of the corridor where his bedroom was. I opened a cupboard, I saw a rope in that cupboard. As the others were still destructing by hitting the windows, as he was still paying attention to the people who were disturbing him under windows, this is when we got a chance to tie this rope, to tie this bedroom door that was on the passage with this rope, then we tried to pull it but it was very difficult for it to bend or be removed. We did not get a chance to get to his bedroom because he was firing. If my memory serves me well I think a gas cylinder was taken out of the house to the window, to his bedroom window. We placed them there but I'm not very sure, I'm not so sure about this, we placed these gas cylinders and we opened them, trying to release the gas inside. We lit a match and there was a big flame. Our aim was to try to get him out of this room. Even there he did not give up. He continued firing. I ran away leaving the others behind. I went home. That is all.
MR KINCAID: Rhandile, when you attacked Mr Cobus did you do so for any reasons of ill will or spite or malice, any ill feeling that you bore him?
MR BHAYI: No, that is not correct.
MR KINCAID: The next incident is the attack on the farm of Mr Pretorius and the home of Mr Senti. We have been given a broad detail of what happened during this attack. Can you tell the Committee just how you personally involve yourself and what you did during the attack on Joe Senti and on Mr Pretorius?
MR BHAYI: We left, we went to a house, we went to the servants quarters with the aim of asking someone to accompany us to the farmhouse. We wanted this person to accompany us to the farmhouse. Our reason for us to go there to the farmhouse, we wanted this person who was going to accompany us to the farmhouse to call the white man from the house and when this white man comes out and this white man would be taken straight back to the house by force. We went there and my colleagues knocked there but myself and the others, we never reached the house. Some members of the group reached the house and they knocked there and I could see that the owners of the house were not prepared to open.
After some time we heard a sound. As we were trying to run away one of us came and he told us "don't run away, this is us, do not run away, come back". We went to this house. When I got into the house the light was on, there was a man who was bleeding in his hand. I enquired and pleaded with them and I enquired why did they shoot this man. Hunsian Ntonga replied and said this was not done deliberately. As I was talking to Hunsian Ntonga, Hunsian Ntonga was one of the people who had a firearm. Hunsian Ntonga was one of the people who were armed with a firearm he told me that that was not done intentially.
We asked the lady of the house to accompany us to the white man with the aim of getting assistance for her husband because we were not there to attack him, that happened by accident. This lady tried to go with us. We went to her next door neighbour. We knocked there and they were refusing to open but at the end they opened. We asked them to accompany us with this lady to go to the white man. I cannot remember whether this person was a man or a woman but I remember that we got at the scene in that house. The reason for me not to remember is because I was very shocked because of what happened and that other ...[indistinct], I was not expecting that to happen.
They agreed and we left with them. When we arrived there, there was a water tank. I took cover behind this water tank. I did not see the front part of the house. The lady shouted, calling the owner of the house. I did not even see whether the owner of the house came but I heard a sound and when I heard that I ran away. I went home. That is all.
MR KINCAID: With the attacks on Mr Senti and Mr Pretorius did you do so for any personal reasons or any desire to inflict injury out of malice or hatred or any other reason of such nature?
MR BHAYI: No, that is not so.
MR KINCAID: Do you confirm the apology tendered by Jimmy Nokawusana to the victims of these attacks?
MR BHAYI: I am saying I'm deeply sorry for what happened to the victims. Even now I'm so worried that they are not present at this hearing because I wanted to utter those words in their presence.
MR KINCAID: And do you confirm the contents of your confirmatory affidavit which you signed in April?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KINCAID
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kincaid. Yes, Mr Clarkee I assume that you wouldn't have any questions?
MR CLARKE: No questions thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Bhayi, can you tell us the group that went to Mr Hansel's house, how many were you more or less?
MR BHAYI: It was quite a large number of us. We were more than seven.
MS PATEL: More than seven, but seven to maybe ten people or was it more than ten people, can you say?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: How many more, twenty people, thirty people, give us a rough estimation please?
MR BHAYI: About fourteen or fifteen.
MS PATEL: Fourteen or fifteen, okay. And at Mr Cobus' farm?
MR BHAYI: Even there it was a large number of us.
MS PATEL: Can you give us a rough estimation please?
MR BHAYI: Between sixteen and seventeen but I'm not sure.
MS PATEL: Okay and at Mr Pretorius' farm?
MR BHAYI: I think we were fourteen or fifteen.
MS PATEL: Okay now the rest of your co-applicants have said that there were at least double the number that you've given us present at these incidents. What is your comment on that?
MR BHAYI: I do not dispute that, as I've said that I was not certain about it.
MS PATEL: Well even at the trials, Sir, you stated that - let's find the reference - you even mentioned at the trial that you were not accompanied by a large group of people, that were only a small number of you. I refer you to page 15 of the judgement, Honourable Chairperson. Sorry? 15 of the judgement.
So it is correct that there were only a small number of people present and not thirty or forty as your co-applicants have told us, not so?
MR BHAYI: All I'm saying is that that is not correct.
MS PATEL: Sorry, what is not correct?
MR BHAYI: The fact that we were less than that number that you're talking about. I agree that in court I made mention of that. In court I did not tell the truth, more specially on that part, I agree with that.
MS PATEL: So why did you lie?
MR BHAYI: The reason for me to lie I knew that they were going to ask me to tell them about the other people who were in my company.
MS PATEL: Okay, you also told the court that you were an innocent bystander and that you acted under duress. Was that also a lie?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct. What I wanted to achieve, I wanted them to release me, I wanted to go home because I was afraid of death sentence because that was a common thing in those times.
MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us what else you lied about, is there anything else that relates to what the co-applicants have said here?
MR BHAYI: I don't know you, you are the people who can bring it up.
MS PATEL: Regarding - did you not know Mr Hansel?
MR BHAYI: No I did not know him but I used to see him.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, I think the interpreter has misunderstood the witness. Can you repeat what you just said?
MR BHAYI: I did not know him but I used to see him.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, it was my misunderstanding I thought he was saying "it was my first time to see him" but the witness is actually saying ...[indistinct] is that what you are saying?
MR BHAYI: Yes I used to see him.
MS PATEL: Sorry, if I can just back track for one minute? In your application form to us, I refer you to page 6, you've applied for three attempted murders. Can you tell us who those attempted murders relate to?
MR BHAYI: When I was convicted in court it was concerning the case of Mr Eric Cobus and this other gentleman, I just forget his name, or Mr Pretorius that is and Mr Hansel. Those are the charges, those are the cases that I apply for amnesty.
MS PATEL: You stated that at Mr Hansel's place that you were in the house at the time that he was being assaulted. Can you tell us how big the house is?
MR BHAYI: I cannot say as to how big was the house.
MS PATEL: Okay. Did you have the rest of the perpetrators, the rest of the group that was with you, whilst you were in the house, were you in a position to see what the rest of them were doing?
MR BHAYI: I said I was very busy, I was looking for a firearm in the dressing table. I noticed Hunsian Ntonga in possession of this firearm pointing on the wall. If my memory serves me well I think that there was a card on the wall.
MS PATEL: This was obviously after Mr Hansel had been assaulted? Can you recall whilst you were in the room there you said you saw him with the firearm in his possession, Mr Ntonga, did you see Mr Hansel show him how to use the weapon?
MR BHAYI: No I did not see that.
MS PATEL: And at the time that the group was leaving or after he had been assaulted and you got the firearm, do you know whether anybody said anything to Mr Hansel?
MR BHAYI: No, I did not see anything else except the firearm.
MS PATEL: No, I'm asking if you heard anybody say anything to Mr Hansel as you were all departing.
MR BHAYI: I think there was someone who said something like he must leave his farm.
MS PATEL: Do you have any idea who said that?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?
MS PATEL: Do you have any idea who said that to Mr Hansel?
MR BHAYI: No, I cannot remember.
MS PATEL: Okay. I'd like to put it to you that it is fact denied that anything of that nature was said to Mr Hansel, that he must leave the farm.
MR BHAYI: That is not what I say.
MS PATEL: Okay.
ADV. SANDI: Ms Patel, that's being denied by who?
MS PATEL: My information from Mr Hansel's son is that that was never put to his father and also if one reads the judgement the judge at some stage makes mention of the fact that none of the victims were in fact told to leave the premises. Do you want the reference in the judgement? Is it fine? Okay.
Did you all leave Mr Hansel's place together?
MR BHAYI: I cannot say so but I only remember that we left the house.
MS PATEL: Sorry, I'm asking very simple questions, Sir, did you all leave the house together or not?
MR BHAYI: That is why I say I cannot say for certain that we left the house all of us all at once as we were in there we were just all over, we were scattered all over inside the house therefore I cannot say for certain that we left the house all of us and all at once.
MS PATEL: So the impression I get is that everyone was doing their own thing in the house, there was no plan about who would do what, is that what you're saying?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct. We did not tell one another who was going to do this and that.
MS PATEL: So how were you all going to ensure that the objective with which you went there was in fact going to be carried out?
MR BHAYI: Will you please repeat your question, Ma'am?
MS PATEL: How were you as a group going to ensure that the objective with which you went there was in fact going to be achieved or carried out and achieved if no one had any idea of who was to do what and you're not even sure who left when?
MR BHAYI: I would like to say that the reason for us to go there was to get weapons and to try and intimidate them to leave their farms knowing very well that there is no person who would be told in his house, who would be told directly like that to leave his house, I know very well that it's very difficult, that was just not possible but we wanted to intimidate them.
MS PATEL: It's not really a response but anyway. I'd like to move on to the next incident, that is Mr Cobus' farm. You say that you did not know - sorry Honourable Chairperson, just grant me a moment? You've been found guilty of the attempted murder of Mr Cobus. Do you agree that you and the rest of your group tried to kill him or do you deny that?
MR BHAYI: You want to know if I disagree with the fact that we were trying to kill him?
MS PATEL: Ja.
MR BHAYI: I would like to say in trying to explain the situation the situation prevailing at the time and the way he was shooting at us and he is the person who shot first, that was expected for him to be injured. ...(inaudible) they could not see him therefore it was possible for him to get injured.
MS PATEL: Okay. Are you saying, however, that you and your group acted in self-defence because he was shooting at you?
MR BHAYI: Yes I want to say that is correct because our intentions for us to go there was to do the same as we did at Mr Hansel's place if he did not fire we were not going to fire at him, we were just going to talk to him and intimidate him and try to assault him there and then and try to get the weapons that they were looking for.
MS PATEL: Okay. I move on now to the Senti and Pretorius incident. You state that you were - just generally from your evidence that you've given us now, you state that you were merely in the background and that you didn't really participate in that incident. In fact you were shocked when you realised that Mr Senti had been shot?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: Is the reason that you were shocked that you'd realised that this group had gone beyond the supposed mandate of the community?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: Is that also the reason that you didn't participate in the attack on Mr Pretorius and you chose rather to leave or to run away because you realised that the rest of the group is now not acting in accordance with the mandate of the community?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: Okay. Do you bear any knowledge of the window of Mr Senti that was broken?
MR BHAYI: I do not have any idea.
MS PATEL: Okay. I'm sorry, I can't recall whether you've said this but did you state that you were present when Mr Pretorius' farm lines were cut?
MR BHAYI: I did not mention anything like that.
MS PATEL: Okay. So you know nothing about Mr Pretorius' farm lines being cut, do I understand you correctly?
MR BHAYI: Yes I cannot dispute that, I cannot say it was not cut or yes it was.
MS PATEL: I want to put it to you, Sir, as it was in fact found by the trial court that you and the rest of your applicants did not act out of political motive? What is your comment.
MR BHAYI: I dispute that.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.
Mr Bhayi, were you aware that members of your group were armed when you went on these escapades?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: With firearms, with guns?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that your group didn't know exactly where the farmhouses in question here were situated when you set out to these farms?
MR BHAYI: I do not know about that but by the look of things no one knew where those houses were situated that is why we had to enquire.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you indicated that you did not expect these farmers simply to leave their farms because your group was asking them or telling them to leave and that your intention really was to intimidate them. Now did you understand that there was a possibility that your comrades would use those firearms that they had with them in these incidents?
MR BHAYI: That is why I say I got very worried at Mr Joe Senti's house when he was shot at because I did not expect that to happen, that was not preplanned.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes the shooting at Senti's house you say was not preplanned and the shooting at the farmer's house, did you expect that there was a possibility that there could be shooting at the farmer's house? Like in the case of Hansel and so on?
MR BHAYI: I would like to say if you are about to take an action you are expecting the results we can get trouble or problems when we reached the place. I anticipated that.
CHAIRPERSON: And that as part of that trouble there can be shooting?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't quite expect that at the worker's house?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct because we were not looking for him we were looking for a white man.
CHAIRPERSON: You were sixteen years old at the time. Your own position in this group, were you just one of the people that were sort of tagging along or did you assume any prominent role or anything like that?
MR BHAYI: I'd like to say myself, the role that I was playing even in the community whenever I see people toyi toying, I used to go there and join the toyi toyi because I used to love it and even when they were going to these places no one pulled me along but I just said it to join them.
CHAIRPERSON: Join the toyi toyi or join the action but you wouldn't start it yourself? Would that be correct or what?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct because I was a bit childish at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SANDI: This group that was on the way to attack Mr Hansel's house, where did you join them, where did you meet them?
MR BHAYI: I met with these people on the way towards that place.
ADV SANDI: When you joined them did you know where they were going to?
MR BHAYI: No I did not know but when the decision was taken at a meeting that was held at the playground I was present.
ADV SANDI: At the soccer playground was the name of Mr Hansel mentioned, did someone specifically say we must go and attack Mr Hansel?
MR BHAYI: I did not hear that unfortunately.
ADV SANDI: Where did you think they were going?
MR BHAYI: I did not ask or enquire, I did not even think about the destination, that I just joined them.]
ADV SANDI: When they went to attack the house of Mr Cobus, were you part of the group from the time the decision was taken that we must go and attack Mr Cobus?
MR BHAYI: I was not there when the decision was taken.
ADV SANDI: How did it come about that you became part of that group?
MR BHAYI: At the time when we were going to Mr Cobus' place I was from the roadblock and I met them on the way and I just joined them.
ADV SANDI: And when they went to the place of Mr Pretorius how did it come about that you became a part of that group?
MR BHAYI: When we were going to Mr Pretorius. I met them at the roadblock, they were passing and I was at the roadblock and I joined them because the way to that place goes via the roadblock.
ADV SANDI: Whilst you were at Mr Hansel's place did you hear anyone demanding money from Mr Hansel?
MR BHAYI: I did not hear anyone mentioning anything about money.
ADV SANDI: If someone had made such a demand from Mr Hansel would you have heard him?
MR BHAYI: I cannot say that it was or I could have heard that but I did not hear anything like that.
ADV SANDI: Would you deny that someone demanded money from Mr Hansel?
MR BHAYI: I cannot deny that but I did not hear anything about money.
ADV SANDI: If one of the members of your group took anything at the house of Mr Hansel, Mr Cobus or Mr Pretorius, would you have seen that, anyone taking something other than firearms and ammunition, would you have seen such a thing happening?
MR BHAYI: I cannot say that I would have seen that because I was also busy.
ADV SANDI: Was it a matter of concern to you that none of the members of your group should take anything other than weapons and ammunition from such places?
MR BHAYI: What I know is this, if you are about to do something at a place, if whatever, if something is not a part of your mandate you are not supposed to do it, that's why I did not think that people would decide to take something else that was not listed.
ADV SANDI: Did you hear any rumours after the attacks had been carried out, that is after you went to Mr Hansel, Mr Cobus and Mr Pretorius farm, did you hear anything that one of the members of your group had taken anything other than firearms and ammunition. Was there any such talk after the raid of such farms?
MR BHAYI: I am sure that I did not hear anything like that, I only heard that during the trial when I heard that people acted against the mandate by taking some of the things that were not mentioned. Such things are against our organisation.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Bhayi. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bhayi, when were you arrested?
MR BHAYI: I was arrested in 1990 but I cannot remember the date.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it long after the final attack on the farm of Mr Pretorius that you were involved in?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct. Let me rectify something, I was arrested after all these incidents that happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you arrested alone?
MR BHAYI: I was arrested with my cousin's brother in Middledrift.
CHAIRPERSON: But he wasn't charged, he wasn't with you in this case or was he?
MR BHAYI: You mean in this case?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, the one that you and the other applicants or most of the applicants were involved in, when you were seven?
MR BHAYI: My cousin's brother was present, I know that he was present.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja but was he - oh is he here with you?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see okay. So you were arrested together in Middledrift did you say.
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct, we were arrested in Middledrift and we were arrested unlawfully.
CHAIRPERSON: Now did the police find any of the stolen goods in your or your cousin's possession?
MR BHAYI: They never found anything in our possession.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they found any of the stolen goods in the possession of the other applicants?
MR BHAYI: I do not know about that.
CHAIRPERSON: What did they have in court when you were being tried, did they have the firearms in court?
MR BHAYI: You mean in court?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, when you were tried in the Supreme Court?
MR BHAYI: That will never happen that you'd see a person with a firearm in court as we were busy in the trial.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no let me explain to you. You actually misunderstood me. Did they bring, did the police bring the firearms that were used in these attacks, the rifle of Hansel to court to show the court here's the rifle that was used by the accused?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did they bring anything else apart from firearms?
MR BHAYI: I think there are other things that were brought in court but I cannot remember them clearly but a jacket was also among them.
CHAIRPERSON: Groceries?
MR BHAYI: I did not see any groceries.
CHAIRPERSON: So you remember the jacket and firearms, you can't remember anything else?
MR BHAYI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise you've just heard that there were other things that were taken in these incidents. In the court, you just heard people saying in the court that there were all sorts of taken from their farms?
MR BHAYI: Yes I heard that.
CHAIRPERSON: You've never seen any of those items?
MR BHAYI: I cannot remember whether I saw them or not because this incident happened quite some time ago.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes I assume you're talking about court, seeing them in court because I understood you to have said you hadn't seen it at the scenes of these crimes?
MR BHAYI: I said what I noticed there in court was a firearm and a jacket.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Alright.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Bhayi, do you know how did it come about that you were arrested. Why did the police arrest you, how did they know to arrest you?
MR BHAYI: They asked my mother about my whereabouts and she told them that I was in Middledrift as I used to go there to Middledrift. I went there for the treatment of an eye, that was something that used to happen before.
ADV BOSMAN: But do you know why they asked you mother, why did they suspect you? Why did the police think that they must go and look for you?
MR BHAYI: I want to say these police went to my home with Mr Hunsian Ntonga.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kincaid, have you got any re-examination?
MR KINCAID: I have none Mr Chairman thank you.
MR BHAYI: There is something else that I would like to clarify, actually it is a request. I would like to request that I be given an opportunity to explain something that we did of which I did not apply for and the incident of the Matamela Hall. I was there and I saw everything that was happening there at the Matamela Hall. I would like to be given an opportunity to explain that scenario.
CHAIRPERSON: We understand that you were there when the Advocate was leading your evidence. He asked you whether you were there and he asked you also to confirm whether what Jimmy told us was in fact how it happened and what happened at the hall. Is there anything else that Jimmy left out that you want to add that we haven't heard before because it's not necessary for you to tell us again exactly what Jimmy said to us. If there's anything that he didn't mention about the hall incident, by all means you can mention it to us but I want to ask you not to repeat what Jimmy had already told us. We have taken very detailed notes of that and we know exactly what he told us what happened there. So do you understand that?
MR BHAYI: Yes I do understand that but there are other things that he forgot about that were taking place in the hall.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, can you briefly just tell us what it was that also happened in the hall that Jimmy didn't refer to?
MR BHAYI: When we were at the Matamela Hall I was standing next to the church bell. The police came, they instructed us to get inside the hall within five minutes but it was a lot of us, it was impossible for us to get inside the hall. Just before that, five minutes elapsed, they fired i.e. the police and the soldiers. There were police casspirs and the military vehicles. They fired inside the hall. Having done that they left. After they had left the hall the police and the soldiers, we tried to help the other people injured in the hall because that hall was made of cement bricks and corrugated iron and people sustained injuries from the material that the hall was made of and the glass and even the hall itself was demolished, the walls, and the people who sustained injuries there were taken photographs of. One of those people was a person who was a teacher at Stutterheim. He got injured in the leg and the other casualties were elderly people. Those people were taken to the hospital in Stutterheim. In Stutterheim they were not welcome, they were then taken to King Williamstown and to Mdanzani where they were admitted. Those who sustained minor injuries were treated in the local clinics.
The person who was there was a Reverend Father and Mr Njtingwa, that is Reverend Ntjingwa, and another one who is a mayor in Stutterheim who is known as Chris Makwanani. Those Reverend went out of the hall being assaulted by the police. That is all.
Other things that took place in the - after this incident of the hall it was at the soccer playground where Umfana Green was addressing the meeting telling us that we are to go to the farms and intimidate the farmers to leave their farms and get weapons from them. We took an action on that very same day. In one farm, Madameni Farm, what happened there was this. We surrounded the house, pelting it with stones, trying to get this white man out of the house. This white man was a soldier. We could not reach his place because he went out and he started firing and we set garage alight where his tractor was kept. After having done all these things, after the Kei route, we left with a comrade, Umfana Green was present and the others and Mujoju Ndane and Apol Ndane were there and the others. We got into this house of this white man. We pelted the roof with stones. No one came out but we saw the cars inside the yard. I had petrol in my possession and we went into the house and we caused chaos and we searched the house for weapons. Fortunately we saw this big truck with weapons inside. We took this truck out of the house. We poured petrol inside the house and we set it alight. After having left that house we also got hold of an axe, we destroyed this trunk with this axe. We found two firearms, a long one and a short one but during the time because some people who were arrested on that day, in court the owner of the house came in court and he said he is not prepared to lay charges on anyone because he knew very well that the comrades were the cause of these things so he was actually doing away with the charges, he was dismissing the charges.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.
MR KINCAID: That is the evidence for this applicant, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Bhayi you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
