Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, my next witness is Mr Potwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Page?

MR OBOSE: He is at page 37 to 43 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes. Mr Potwana, can you state your full names for the record please.

MR POTWANA: Kayaletu Nuan Potwana.

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Yes, Mr Obose?

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. What rank do you hold Mr Potwana in the South African Police Services?

MR POTWANA: I am an Inspector.

MR OBOSE: In 1994, March, what rank were you holding?

MR POTWANA: I was an Inspector.

MR OBOSE: Attached to which Police station?

MR POTWANA: NU1 Police station in Mdantsane.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that then Warrant Officers were called to Bisho Police College by Gen Nqoya, on the 22nd of March?

MR POTWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: You attended this meeting?

MR POTWANA: No, I was working in court, I was on court order on that particular day.

MR OBOSE: Did you at any stage go to Bisho College that day?

MR POTWANA: Yes, I did.

MR OBOSE: At what time did you get there?

MR POTWANA: I arrived at about six o'clock in the evening.

MR OBOSE: What was going on?

MR POTWANA: The hall was full and the Policemen there were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: And slogans?

MR POTWANA: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Did you join in?

MR POTWANA: Yes, I did.

MR OBOSE: By doing what?

MR POTWANA: I sang.

MR OBOSE: Did you get inside the hall or you were outside?

MR POTWANA: Yes, I was getting in and coming out, but I managed to get inside.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in this meeting by performing a certain task, etc?

MR POTWANA: Yes, I participated.

MR OBOSE: What did you do?

MR POTWANA: I went to fetch Colonel Mfene and Qala.

MR OBOSE: What rank was Qala?

MR POTWANA: I think he was a Major at the time.

MR OBOSE: Yes?

MR POTWANA: And Major Fumanise.

MR OBOSE: Is that all?

MR POTWANA: I just forgot the other one. Maybe I will remember as time goes on.

MR OBOSE: So you fetched about five Officers in all?

MR POTWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Why?

MR POTWANA: I was told that they were needed in the hall.

MR OBOSE: For what purpose?

MR POTWANA: They said all the Police should be together in the hall.

MR OBOSE: Why did you, I am talking about yourself now, why did you fetch only the Officers?

MR POTWANA: I went to fetch them because they were needed in the hall. They were in their houses, so I had to fetch them.

MR OBOSE: Were you alone in doing this?

MR POTWANA: No, I was not alone. We were in a kombi.

MR OBOSE: Did you decide on your own "let's go and fetch the Officers while they are not here, we need them here", or was there a general consensus in the meeting that the Officers be fetched?

MR POTWANA: As we heard cars, they would mention people's names and we would go and fetch them. I did not initiate that.

MR OBOSE: Before the 22nd of March 1994, was there or was there no feeling or fair amount of agitation on the part of the Police about or at least against the rule of Brigadier Gqozo?

MR POTWANA: Yes, there was that kind of a feeling. The Police were not happy, their houses were being burnt down in their communities.

MR OBOSE: Was this issue of the overthrow of Gqozo ever you know, discussed however informally, by the Police or at least the desire that somebody should rule and not Gqozo?

MR POTWANA: I never heard it being discussed during my presence.

MR OBOSE: Why did you identify with the singing and the sloganeering that was going on?

MR POTWANA: I was also against his regime.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose. Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Is it correct that the Officers were questioned about the misappropriation of funds?

MR POTWANA: Yes, something like that was made mention of.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it also correct that before an Officer is fetched, there would be certain allegations about misappropriation of funds and then subsequent to that, somebody would announce that that Officer should be fetched?

MR POTWANA: I do not remember anything about that. But the person would be asked while inside the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the Officers were never asked about their political affiliation?

MR POTWANA: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the Officers were never asked about their political affiliation?

MR POTWANA: I do not remember hearing that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that the Officers were never asked about their loyalty to Gqozo?

MR POTWANA: I never heard that, too.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that the Officers, nothing political was discussed with them, other than their involvement in the misappropriation of funds?

MR POTWANA: I won't know about the others, but I remember some of them, because I was not all alone there, doing the job.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, any way, can you just confirm that nothing politically was discussed with the Officers as far as you are aware?

MR POTWANA: No, I don't want to lie, I don't remember anything like that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. That leaves us with one conclusion, that the Officers were there on the basis of accounting about their misappropriation of funds, not so?

MR POTWANA: They were there because we wanted Gqozo to step down, to account for the moneys, that was asked from the person who was already there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, it would seem throughout the evidence that the Officers were never made part of the meeting which decided that Gqozo should step down.

MR POTWANA: The main fact of bringing them to the College, they were made part of the meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And throughout the evidence, there is no evidence that their participation was ever asked for or their opinion on the whole issue, not so?

MR POTWANA: They were also saying something, they would contribute by saying something.

MR NOMPOZOLO: My instructions are that the only thing which happened in the hall was the humiliation of the Officers and many questions were asked, like they would be asked to state their CV's and on top of that, they would be asked about misappropriation of funds?

MR POTWANA: If they were asked such questions, it is not the whole house that was posing such questions. It could be some individuals.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, do you concede that some Officers were asked about the moneys and misappropriation of moneys?

MR POTWANA: Yes, I do agree with that statement.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett, have you got any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few Chairperson. Sir, in your evidence in chief you said you went to fetch the Officers because they were staying at their places whilst other Police were at the hall, do you remember that?

MR POTWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Is that the only reason why you went to fetch them?

MR POTWANA: Yes, because all the Police were supposed to be in one place.

MR MAPOMA: Who told you to go and fetch those Officers?

MR POTWANA: It was Inspector Mfene.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you why you must go and fetch them, did he tell you the reason why they were wanted?

MR POTWANA: The reason was that all the Police were supposed to be at the College.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you the reason why specifically those Officers, those specific Officers whom you went to fetch, did he tell you the reason why they were wanted?

MR POTWANA: He didn't, he was not specific. I went to those Officers because we were fetching the Police. He was not specific. He didn't tell me to go and fetch those Officers.

MR MAPOMA: When you went to fetch those Officers, who were you in the company of?

MR POTWANA: I remember Matigani, I can't remember others because he was the one who was next to me as I was the driver.

MR MAPOMA: Amongst the applicants who are the applicants at this hearing, is there anyone with whom you were when you went to fetch those Officers, do you recall?

MR POTWANA: No, there is no one applicant who was with me in that car.

MR MAPOMA: The Officers, did you perceive them as having anything to do with Gqozo, whom you wanted to step down as Head of State?

MR POTWANA: I can say so because they didn't complain.

MR MAPOMA: I don't follow you. Did you get my question?

MR POTWANA: Can you please repeat it.

MR MAPOMA: My question is those Officers whom you went to fetch or who were brought into the hall, Officers who were brought into the hall, did you perceive them as having anything to do with Gqozo, whom you wanted to step down?

MR POTWANA: Yes, because they were the ones who were used by him.

MR MAPOMA: When they were brought in, during the time they were inside the hall, where were you, were you inside the hall or outside the hall?

MR POTWANA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR MAPOMA: During that time when you were at the College, were you inside or outside the hall, you, yourself?

MR POTWANA: I was in and out. I was not sitting in one place, I was not inside the hall the whole time.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct therefore, that you did not follow all the proceedings which were taking place in that hall?

MR POTWANA: Yes, there are things that I didn't follow because I was not always inside the hall.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Yes, one question Mr Chairman. You mentioned Mr Potwana, that the Officers also spoke. What do you remember them saying inside the hall with regard to what was going on? I understood you to have been answering in that context.

MR POTWANA: Because there was a meeting, it was not quiet. Everybody was participating, everybody was saying something. Those Officers were not keeping quiet while they were there.

MR OBOSE: What I want to know is did they join in what was going on, did they oppose it?

MR POTWANA: They joined because they were not just sitting there, they were part of what we were doing.

MR OBOSE: Did they sing, did they sloganeer or what?

MR POTWANA: I didn't get near to their place, so I don't know.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Potwana, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, at this stage, may I ask for a very short adjournment. I looks like me and my learned colleagues must now decide, it may possibly shorten the proceedings in some form. We had some discussions but we had not yet concluded. I don't think the adjournment will be more than 10 minutes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 10 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose, what is the position with the remaining applicants?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there are about four of them.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am instructed that the two at least applicants, Sibuqashe, Toto and Nqinana, were doing VIP duties in the Presidential entourage, with the Presidential entourage in Pretoria. They were released this morning, roundabout ten o'clock. They phoned, confirming that tomorrow morning they will be available to proceed with their applications, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, with regard to the last applicant, Mr S.S. Gola, though I understand that he is no withdrawing the application, I understand that he is mentally incapacitated and that is generally understood by the victims as well. With regard to the other applicant, Mr Chairman, Mr Kolele, he was informed by one of the applicants and however told one of my applicants that he had some urgent business to attend to in the Northern Transvaal. Mr Chairman, it does seem that if he is not here by tomorrow, I will have no option but to close on behalf of the applicants, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name, sorry Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Mr Kolele, N.Z. Kolele, pages 79 to 85, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes. So you are asking that those matters stand down until tomorrow morning?

MR OBOSE: That is correct Mr Chairman, with regard to those that should be here tomorrow. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Nompozolo, you have a few witnesses that you would be calling. Given the situation that has arisen, is it possible for us to listen to the testimony of some of those witnesses in the meantime, not to waste any time?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Yes Mr Chairman, that is correct. I've got witnesses, three witnesses who we can proceed with, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett and Mr Mapoma, under these circumstances I intend to listen to the witnesses of Mr Nompozolo, just to start with listening to in the mean time. I assume you don't have any objection to that procedure?

MS COLLETT: I have no objection.

MR MAPOMA: I have no objection Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am going to call the victim Makwethu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makwethu, can you give your full names for the record please?

MR MAKWETHU: Thozamile Joseph Makwethu.

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Nompozolo?

EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Makwethu, during the month of March 1994, were you a member of the then Ciskei Police Force?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And do you still recall the events of the 22nd to the 23rd of March 1994?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission what happened on that day?

MR MAKWETHU: On the 22nd of March 1994, I was at work.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

MR MAKWETHU: As we were sitting in the office, we didn't know anything about what was happening. I saw that there was nobody else, I was only with Lieutenant Gqibithole who is a Captain today.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

MR MAKWETHU: We were in Captain Gqibithole's office.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Approximately what time was it?

MR MAKWETHU: It was about three o'clock.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, then what happened?

MR MAKWETHU: As we were still sitting there, there was nothing we were doing and there was nobody and when we were looking through the window at the Commissioner's office I saw that there were Police around there, Riot Squat Unit.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

MR MAKWETHU: Then Captain Gqibithole said to me, he asked me what was happening and then I said I didn't know what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Okay, ultimately did anybody arrive at your office where you were?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who is it?

MR MAKWETHU: I think Sergeant Tondile arrived, who was working at the Fingerprint Unit.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who else?

MR MAKWETHU: He was alone. He came alone to that office, but there were people who were speaking in the passage. I could hear that they were talking to Superintendent Mbi.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what happened?

MR MAKWETHU: He greeted us and he asked how we were and he said that he was sent to take us to the College. We asked what was happening and he said that he didn't know. We had to hurry because the people he was with, would come and take us by force if we were not willing to go with him at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

MR MAKWETHU: We then took the caps and we went with Captain Gqibithole, Superintendent Mbi joined us and then crossed to the office of the Commissioner.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

MR MAKWETHU: When we arrived there, a casspir and a van were parked there. Captain Skepe was the driver, he was a Warrant Officer or a Sergeant at the time, but now he is a Captain today, Captain Skepe was the driver of the van.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you got into the van and you went to the Police College?

MR MAKWETHU: We wanted to get into the casspir because we could see that the van was small, but we were told to get out of the casspir because the casspir was very comfortable, so we were told to get inside the van. We wanted to get in the front seat and the Skepe said that no, we must go at the back, it was their chance to take the front seat.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you were not given any choice?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes? What happened?

MR MAKWETHU: We then indeed got at the back of the van. Before we could do that, Skepe I could see that he knew what he wanted from us, he then said there was misappropriation of money. He said that if it was up to him, he was going to take us to Spunzana Police station at that particular time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what happened?

MR MAKWETHU: I told him not to close the van outside, because it was hot. He then said that we would jump out of the van if it was not closed and we would injure ourselves, so he closed the van and we went to the College.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was he alone in the front?

MR MAKWETHU: There was another Police with him, but I didn't know that Police. I can't even identify that Police today because the situation was bad at that time, I was also scared of what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you arrived at the College, what happened?

MR MAKWETHU: We got out of the van and we were told to go through the entrance of the hall at the side. We went inside and we were told to go to the stage.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At the stage, what happened?

MR MAKWETHU: We were sitting down and they were singing songs and I didn't know what was happening because I was scared, it was said that I have to go to a cell. People were singing and I was confused, I didn't know what was happening. After some time, I could see that there was a lot of things happening there. What surprised me or what scared me was that Sergeant Nkwenkwe, the one who testified here, he stood up with a microphone in his hand. He was giving us this microphone, telling us to give out our names, our stations and when we joined the Force. I did say those things and when I was giving the microphone to Gqibithole because he was the last one, he was told to raise up his voice because there was a lot of noise there. I was scared and the person who spoke for me, was the sister of Captain Gqibithole, the one who was together with us. He said that they knew that I can't raise my voice.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, just then, what is it that you were supposed to say? What were you told to say?

MR MAKWETHU: They asked what my name was and when I joined the Force, where was I stationed. That is all.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, continue, what happened?

MR MAKWETHU: While we were still sitting there, they discussed this issue about the misappropriation of funds and I looked to Major Halani, the Investigator who was with Major Kopel, I looked directly to them. I was wondering whether he could see what was happening. He then stood up, he said that there were people who were clever there. He wanted them to stop this and then this stopped and then after that, we sat down. We spent the night there and the issues about the Sports Club money and the Orphan's Fund was raised and because we were the Finance Department, we were asked about those issues. We were then taken to the Finance as the Police went there to count that money.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, let's talk about you now. Did you want to go to the Police College?

MR MAKWETHU: At that time, there was no reason for me to go there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you want to stay in that meeting?

MR MAKWETHU: I can't talk anything about the meeting, because I was not even warned or told about the meeting in the first place.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you want to stay the whole night at the Police College?

MR MAKWETHU: I didn't want to stay there the whole night, I didn't want to stay there, but I was forced to stay there the whole night.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I see. Were there any people who were armed in the hall?

MR MAKWETHU: Almost all the Police that were there, were armed. I did not have my firearm with me, but a lot of the Police that were there, were armed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: With what were they armed?

MR MAKWETHU: R5's.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, was there a situation that it would seem as if you were guarded or prevented from leaving the hall?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did you ultimately leave the hall?

MR MAKWETHU: It was during the morning, it was in the morning when I left. It was when we were told to go and count the money. We also went to the Police station, that is where we were charged, we were formally charged, then we got out on R100 bail. I then arrived at home at about ten o'clock.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. You have already said that in the morning you went to count money, what money was that?

MR MAKWETHU: Sports Club money and Widows' and Orphans' Fund.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission whether during the day of the 22nd and the evening and the morning of the 23rd, whether there was anything political which was discussed with you?

MR MAKWETHU: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have heard the applicants testifying, on what they were saying, is there anything that you disagree with that they were not telling the truth about?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What is it?

MR MAKWETHU: First of all, they didn't say that when I was there I was given a microphone to speak and everything that was happening to me. There was no need for that if that was a political meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. What else did they not tell the truth about?

MR MAKWETHU: The other thing is that they are saying that everybody was supposed to be in that meeting, even though I was not given a warning to go to that meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. Now, during the whole incident, how did you feel, did you feel happy or were you unhappy about the whole thing?

MR MAKWETHU: I was unhappy, even today I am not happy because I am leaving the Police Force at the end of the month. I am not well since that day.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. What are you suffering from?

MR MAKWETHU: Major depression. I have panic attacks, I cannot sleep well, that never happened in my life, treated badly by young children because some of them were younger than me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were there any things which they were saying to you, like were they calling you father, like it would be expected of them?

MR MAKWETHU: They gave me a new name that day, even my father didn't give me that name. They gave me the name of "The Big Rat."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. When you were there, were you ever accused of misappropriating funds?

MR MAKWETHU: When I was there?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, pertaining to you, there is nothing politically that was discussed with you?

MR MAKWETHU: Not at all.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, was it ever discussed in the meeting that Brigadier Gqozo should resign?

MR MAKWETHU: No, people were just singing, I didn't know what was happening. I was even far from Gqozo, I was not close to him, so I don't know the connection between myself and him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have already told the Commission that the only thing that was discussed was the issue of money, is that correct?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was your rank at that time?

MR MAKWETHU: I was a Captain at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And what Unit were you attached to then?

MR MAKWETHU: Finance.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have already told the Commission that you were charged, what were you charged with?

MR MAKWETHU: Fraud.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was it, were you charged on the 23rd of March 1994?

MR MAKWETHU: The case had been registered at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But why were you arrested, what I am getting at, when you were arrested, were you arrested for the case which was investigated throughout?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And it is the case, you were aware, that it was being investigated?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And was it part of the humiliation you already mentioned, the fact that you were arrested on that day?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you recall prior to that date, when was the case opened?

MR MAKWETHU: No, I can't recall, but it was quite a long time. There was also another case that was investigated, concerning the Commissioners and the senior Officers, but I cannot recall when that was opened.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have heard that the applicants are applying for amnesty, what are you saying to that?

MR MAKWETHU: There is nothing said here that was done to me, so I can't forgive a person who didn't say the truth. You forgive a person when he has said the truth, and I know that if a person, as a father I know that if a person tells the truth, I can forgive that person as I do to my children, but for now, I can't forgive them because all this, they didn't include or they didn't say what happened to me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Lastly, you have told the Commission that you were charged for fraud. What was the outcome of the case?

MR MAKWETHU: Not guilty and I was discharged.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Obose, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Captain Makwethu, when Sebe was toppled by Gqozo, you were already a Policeman, isn't that so?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct. We were from the SAP members, we were the ones who started the Ciskei.

MR OBOSE: Isn't it correct that after Sebe had been toppled, some Policemen, senior Policemen and senior Officers in the army were debriefed by those soldiers who were loyal to Gqozo?

MR MAKWETHU: (No interpretation)

MR OBOSE: Isn't it correct that after Gqozo had taken over the military coup ...

MR MAKWETHU: It was the first time for me to see that.

MR OBOSE: Which is that Police involve themselves in something which was overtly political, is that what you are saying?

MR MAKWETHU: The overthrowing as they were saying.

MR OBOSE: Yes, just repeat yourself Mr Makwethu.

MR MAKWETHU: The fact that there was that overthrowing, as they were saying, I don't know about that.

MR OBOSE: No Mr Makwethu, but you saw it yourself and that is what you have just told the Commission. It is the first time for you to see Policemen involved in a coup?

MR MAKWETHU: I was not involved in that. The people who were involved, were those who were in that meeting, those who were aware of the meeting, I was not aware of the meeting. It was the first time I could see that as they were saying.

MR OBOSE: What were they saying?

MR MAKWETHU: The evidence they were giving here to this Commission today.

MR OBOSE: No, you were in the meeting, what were they saying in the meeting?

MR MAKWETHU: I was not in that meeting, I was taken there.

MR OBOSE: Yes, but you were taken to the meeting.

MR MAKWETHU: Against my will, I didn't even know that there was a meeting.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, it was for the first time to hear or see Police doing what they were doing and I want to know what were they doing in the meeting or what were they saying inside?

MR MAKWETHU: I was not in the meeting sir, there is a difference between a meeting and something else. I don't know what you want me to say, I was not in a meeting there. Skepe told me what he was taking me from the office to the van, he said that if it was up to him, he was going to take me to the Police station, so which means that they knew what they were taking me for, they were taking me for this issue of money.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, in other words you never on the 22nd of March 1994, went to the meeting? You never went there?

MR MAKWETHU: I was not in the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Your evidence before this Commission was that you did go to the meeting?

MR MAKWETHU: I said I was taken from my office. I was taken from the office, I was with Mr Gqibithole, I didn't know anything and then we were told that we were needed there and when I asked what for, the one who took us, didn't know anything.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, did you go to the Bisho Police College hall on the 22nd of March 1994?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, I went to Bisho Police College at that time, I was taken there.

MR OBOSE: This behaviour of the Police, you say it was for the first time for you to see? Is that the behaviour that you saw in the hall at Bisho Police College?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: And what behaviour was that?

MR MAKWETHU: The way they were treating me, they made me to stand in front, even though I was an Officer. They told me to tell their names even though they knew mine and they were singing these songs, so I didn't know what was happening.

MR OBOSE: What songs were sung on that day?

MR MAKWETHU: The freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: And what else?

MR MAKWETHU: And they were saying "down with me". They were saying "down with me", I didn't understand what was going on.

MR OBOSE: And Gqozo also, isn't it?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR OBOSE: As a Policeman in the Ciskei at the time, Mr Makwethu, wasn't that obviously political, shouting derogatory slogans about the Head of State in a meeting?

MR MAKWETHU: No, it was not obvious that it was political whilst it included myself and the money issues.

MR OBOSE: No, no, I am talking about the singing and the slogans, were they not clearly political?

MR MAKWETHU: I don't know, but you could hear that it was the toyi-toyi song, the freedom song. My worry was that I was not sleeping at home, they didn't know what happened to me.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, freedom songs you know as a Policeman, are sung in political meetings?

MR MAKWETHU: No, no, I don't know, don't include me in that sir, I don't know. I never associated myself with that.

MR OBOSE: No, no, but you didn't hear my question, you answered too soon. Freedom songs in general are sung in political gatherings, or gatherings that are political in nature, in general? As a Policeman, I am sure you should know that?

MR MAKWETHU: I was not in a meeting sir. I was taken to the College and when I arrived there, those songs were being sung.

MR OBOSE: My question is general Mr Makwethu, I am saying in general, isn't that correct? No answer?

MR MAKWETHU: They were singing those songs there, but I didn't know why I was taken to that place. My worry was that I was taken there as Skepe told me where he was taking me to, or where he was supposed me to, I don't know why they took me to that place.

MR OBOSE: Captain Makwethu, the report that appeared in the papers the day following this hostage taking, was that plus minus 50 Officers were held hostage at Bisho Police College, would you agree with that report regarding the number at least?

MR MAKWETHU: I didn't see the paper.

MR OBOSE: I am asking about the number, would you agree that that is a correct estimation at least of the number of Officers that were there in the hall?

MR MAKWETHU: I can't answer that properly sir, because I didn't have a chance to count. Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong, I don't know. I can't answer that question.

MR OBOSE: Did soldiers join this meeting, some soldiers?

MR MAKWETHU: No. The soldiers arrived in the morning, two of them, Major Mqozulwa's son together with another soldier, they wanted to know what was going on and they were told the situation and then they went, they were only two soldiers.

MR OBOSE: Also the answer was you can see what is going on and what was going on when the two soldiers got to the hall?

MR MAKWETHU: They were in front of me, we were sitting at the stage and they were talking to Mr Mfene, so you could see them.

MR OBOSE: Yes, what I am saying is what as you could observe, could the soldiers see? The answer was you can see what was going on.

MR MAKWETHU: I don't know what they could see, maybe they could see that there were a lot of people singing, I don't know because they just spoke there and then it was said that the soldiers were even there, they didn't spend a long time here. I have been testifying here for a long time now.

MR OBOSE: Did you hear about Brigadier Gqozo stepping down that particular night?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Okay. Lastly, you say the Commissioner's office that is next to the Bisho Legislature, is that what you are talking about when you say it was surrounded by Police?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, the one who was next to Radio Ciskei on the other side of the fence.

MR OBOSE: So the entire building was surrounded by Policemen?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What impression did you get, what did you think as a senior Policeman, what did you think was going on?

MR MAKWETHU: I didn't know. As I just said, I didn't know what was happening, but we were sitting there, now knowing what was happening.

MR OBOSE: But it was clear that something was going on, isn't it?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Thank you. Nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions? Sorry, Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Nothing further, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, sorry, I misaddressed you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few sir. Mr Makwethu, when did you become a Commissioned Officer?

MR MAKWETHU: In 1987.

MR MAPOMA: So when Gqozo took over, you were already a Commissioned Officer if I get you well?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you arrived into the Police College hall, did Mr Mfene speak in your presence?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, he spoke in my presence.

MR MAPOMA: Did Commissioner Nqoya arrive when you were already there?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you arrived there, these slogans "down with Gqozo", down with yourself, was it also made "down with Nqoya"?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, after he had arrived.

MR MAPOMA: Correct me if I am wrong, it would seem that the Police on that day were in a state of revolt against the senior Police Officers? Do you confirm that?

MR MAKWETHU: I can't say that sir, because as I have already said, I didn't know what was happening there, because I got it wrong at the first place and even when I arrived there, I was confused. They didn't say, they were not discussing one issue so that is why I was confused.

MR MAPOMA: But you could see that there was some disrespectfulness against the senior Policemen on the part of the junior Police Officers, is that not so?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And when you were taken into that hall, you were taken there forcefully against your will by these junior Officers?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: When you were inside that hall, you were made to remain there until the following morning, much against your will? Do you confirm that as well?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Are you able to tell the Committee what is it that Mfene was addressing the meeting about actually?

MR MAKWETHU: When we went inside, Mfene said here are some of these big rats, misusing money. He did say that. Whilst we were still listening to that, the microphone would be given to somebody else, that is when we got confused. There were toilets at the stage, you would only go and smoke in the toilets, that is all, you would come back again and listen to what was being said, but what I noticed is that he spoke about these big rats. I didn't focus or listen or follow what was happening, I was thinking of sleeping at the time because I was supposed to be at home.

MR MAPOMA: Now, these complaints which were made about money embezzlement, were they also levelled to Commissioner Nqoya?

MR MAKWETHU: I can't remember, but Gen Nqoya was also part and parcel of that, we were all accused so I can't be sure about that, because he arrived late. We had already spoken at the time, so I can't recall whether he had those things or not.

MR MAPOMA: These accusations about corruption and money embezzlement, were they from the theme of that meeting, from the juniors? Did they attribute it in any way with Gqozo as the Head of State?

MR MAKWETHU: I don't want to lie sir, I don't know because the case was already opened at the time, it was being investigated by Superintendent Halani together with Major Kopel. I can't say.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Makwethu. Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett. Does the panel have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination Mr Nompozolo?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Makwethu, what was the rank of Kopel at that time?

MR MAKWETHU: He was a Major at that time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is a Major a Commissioned Officer?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was he put on the stage as well?

MR MAKWETHU: Yes, he was on the stage, but he was working with the group that was down there, because there was a time when they were sent to Gqozo, Kopel also was in that group, he was sent by this group.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was the rank of Halani?

MR MAKWETHU: He was a Lieutenant Colonel.

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is also a Commissioned Officer?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What I want to know, were they also humiliated like, were they also called Big Rats and all that?

MR MAKWETHU: No, those were not referred to them. They were referred to us because this was focused on this misappropriation of money.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. You have said that they were sent to Gqozo, to do what?

MR MAKWETHU: They were sent to Gqozo because he was needed, they wanted to see him in the hall, so they came back, saying that they could not find him, they gave out that report.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you know why he was required to attend the meeting, that is Mr Gqozo?

MR MAKWETHU: No, I don't know. That is why I am saying we were confused, we didn't know what to do. I was only thinking about the cell that I was threatened about before.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have testified that the offices of the Commissioner were rounded up by the Police?

MR MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Does it happen that if a senior Policeman, especially in the position of a Commissioner, if he is going to be arrested, does it happen that you get many Policemen who attend to that?

MR MAKWETHU: Sir, as I was not involved in arresting people, but according to my knowledge that I have, that doesn't happen because there was supposed to be a senior Officer who was at the same level with him, so that he can lead those people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have already described how the meeting was, can you then sum up and say it was an orderly meeting or it was more of a hooligan style meeting?

MR MAKWETHU: It was just a hooligan meeting style.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Lastly, you have said that it was, slogans were being chanted there amongst others "down with yourself". Were you a politician or why did they say down with you?

MR MAKWETHU: I think that because they said that I have misused money, I think they put it that way because that was what was being discussed. That is why I am saying what happened there was not orderly.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Thank you Mr Makwethu, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I am now calling Mr Sims.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you state your full names for the record please?

MR SIMS: Raymond Pieter Sims.

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Nompozolo?

EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sims, during the month of March 1994, were you a Policeman?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where were you stationed?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I was seconded to the then Ciskei Police attached to the Riot Unit.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, I've got just a slight problem here, I am sure how the interpretation goes that side, like the waiting time and all that.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps the Interpreters must just indicate if the speed is such that you can't keep up with the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: No, there is no problem so far, everything is just fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much. I think we are okay, perhaps you can just bear that in mind when you lead the witness. You may proceed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sims, on the 22nd - oh, sorry, just before that, what was your rank, Mr Sims?

MR SIMS: I was a Lieutenant Colonel, Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, Mr Sims, on the 22nd of March 1994, where were you?

MR SIMS: We were at the Bisho Police College, the Riot Unit premises are located in the College premises. We were busy in one of the offices there, checking premises for a joint operation centre, for the elections on the 27th of April.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, can you tell the Commission what happened on that day?

MR SIMS: Certainly. Mr Chairman, myself, Colonel Oosthuizen and Colonel Bonguza, we were busy checking the office or the dining or the lounge next to the Officers' MES for a joint operational centre to be rigged up there for the elections on the 27th of April. Colonel Oosthuizen left, I went back to my office and about half past eleven, I also got into the Police vehicle and drove to the main gate. On my arrival at the main gate, it was closed. A casspir, armoured vehicle was parked across the road on the outside of the gate. I was told by a then Ciskei Police member, who was armed with an R4 or R5 rifle, that I am not allowed to leave the premises. I was then informed that I must go back to my offices. I then turned back and went to the Administration building of the Police College where I saw Colonel Bonguza and Colonel Oosthuizen's vehicle was also parked. On my arrival there, I went to Colonel Bonguza's office where I found him and Colonel Oosthuizen and another Officer whom I cannot remember, where they also informed me that we were not allowed to leave and that the Police members, the then Ciskei Police members were unsatisfied and were waiting for Commissioner Nqoya, Gen Nqoya, to return, that he had a meeting with them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry, you were saying that you were told that the Police were not satisfied. What is it that they were not satisfied about?

MR SIMS: At that stage, Mr Chairman, I did not know, they just said they were not satisfied and that they were waiting for Commissioner Nqoya. I found out later what the reason was. Mr Chair, while we were still in Colonel Bonguza's office, Inspector Mfene and two or three other members arrived there. They told us, we weren't requested, they told us that we must accompany them, that we must go to the College hall and that we weren't allowed to stay alone in Colonel Bonguza's office. We then accompanied him and Colonel Oosthuizen, Bonguza and myself, we stood outside, next to the hall was a tree, we stood under the tree. The side doors of the hall was open. Nkwenkwe was sitting, I could see him there and while we were still standing under the tree, Nkwenkwe shouted and said that we must be brought into the hall because we weren't allowed to stand outside and that we were having our own meeting, gathering there. We were then instructed, I don't know who the member was, that we should go into the hall, we weren't allowed to stand outside. On our entering the hall, we were told to sit on the stage, there was a table and we were told to sit behind the table. I sat first from the left, as we came in, Colonel Oosthuizen and then Colonel Bonguza and some other Officers that were there. On our entering, I saw that there were a lot of people, a lot of members, even the students that were still undergoing training, were there. They were singing, shouting, it was chaos. Inspector Mfene, he was sitting at a table, Peteni was at a table and a few other members were there. At that stage, there was no loudhailer, people were shouting, people were trying to talk from the front. Eventually at some stage, they saw that there was nobody appointed as a Chairman to address the meeting. Inspector Mfene was then appointed as Chairman of the meeting. Throughout the whole evening, he carried on as Chairman of the meeting. The first, I will say the first part of the meeting, there was a big argument between the members from the floor with Captain Mondo, they were wanting the keys to the armoury at the Bisho Logistics which is just situated next to the Police College. They wanted the keys to the armoury, some of the Logistics personnel said they did not have the keys, the others said it was with Colonel Vuso. I think she was then a Constable, female Constable Nhlela, she was also shouting and saying that the keys were with Mondo. Eventually a group of people from the members were appointed to go to the Police Logistics and the armoury to go and fetch the key, to get the key, to arm themselves. They got the key, Colonel Vuso was brought to the meeting. After the members armed themselves, a loudhailer was found because some of the members at the back of the hall couldn't hear what was going on. Then with the loudhailer, they started talking about pension money that they wanted to be paid out to them, they spoke about funds, some funds of the Ciskei that they wanted to be paid out to them. That is at that stage that it seemed to me that that is what this meeting was about, it was that they were wanting their pension money, they were wanting other moneys that were paid into clubs. The matters of promotions were brought in. While these discussions were taking place, I say discussions, but if I can put it in my own words, it was an absolute circus. Other officers were brought in. Captain Makwethu, they were mocked, they were made fools of. As Captain Makwethu said, they questioned him about money he was alleged to have stolen. While they were addressed from the Chair, from the table, people were still singing. They were singing songs "down with Gqozo", but as Captain Makwethu said, they changed it to anybody they liked, who was brought in, they changed the name to that. Later Mr Goosen and two or three other gentlemen, I don't know who they were, they came in. They told the meeting that then Brigadier Gqozo had resigned. That is the only part of the meeting that I thought had something to do with politics, when they were told that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, because at no stage while I was present at that meeting, was anything whatsoever, except the singing, mentioned that the purpose of the meeting was to have Brigadier Gqozo to resign, was to have the Officers to support them. At no stage was that brought to our attention. We were, if I say we, myself and Colonel Oosthuizen, at one stage we spoke to he was then Inspector at that stage, Pongola. We said "what do we have to do here, we are seconded members, we have got nothing to do with this, can't we be released". He spoke to the people at the table, I can't say exactly to whom and he said that he was going to take us out, they can let us go because we've got nothing to do with the Ciskei and the Police there as we were only there to train them and to help them. Nkwenkwe and Nhlela again, they are the people that shouted and said "no", we are part of the Police, the Ciskei Police, we are working there, we cannot be let go. Pongola took us up to the door to let us go and then we were turned back there again by other members who were armed with R4's, R5 rifles. We then stayed at the meeting. During the course of the meeting, General, the Commissioner, Gen Nqoya, he was brought in, other Officers were brought in. They were mocked, they were asked about finances. Commissioner Nqoya was asked about an affair he had with a certain Captain, a woman Captain. Then later during the evening, they questioned him also about the moneys, about the pensions, why didn't he come back to come and address them from Brigadier Gqozo's office where he said he was going to see him regarding the pension money, about what is going to happen with them and then they asked about the moneys, about the paying out of the moneys. Then he said he's got, that is now Nqoya, he said that he cannot sign for the money alone, that Brigadier Nkani and Giba also had to sign. Then members were sent to go and fetch Brigadier Nkani and Brigadier Giba. They were brought to the meeting. They were held there until the next morning. I can just also mention that when Mr Goosen was there, he also requested the members and the Committee at the hall, that the Officers should be released and they, the members and the Committee, did not want to release the Officers. He told them that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, there was no need to keep us hostage any more, they refused. The next morning, Mr Jurgens arrived with one or two other people again. The questions that were put to them, to Mr Jurgens, had nothing to do with politics. It revolved around the promotions of members and the alleged fraud cases, the investigation thereof and they wanted him to give a decision right there and then about Nqoya, Makwethu and those people, to be, that they will be prosecuted. He told them that he couldn't do that, he still had to go and see what was going on, read the cases and in due course, he would give his decision. He then left. The two Ciskei Defence Force members, the only two members that I saw from the Defence Force, arrived there that morning as well. It was only then that I heard that the Committee and the Police members there were informed that the Civil Servants and the Defence Force members were going to the Bisho Independence Stadium where they were going to be addressed by Brigadier Gqozo. At no other stage, the whole night, was anything mentioned, nothing regarding politics were mentioned. That was the first time that I heard that Brigadier Gqozo was going to address them. The whole meeting the whole night, was as I said, about the money, about promotions, the moneys that had to be paid out to them. It had to be explained to the members at one stage, that the pension cannot be paid out to them, the pension moneys could not be paid out to them the next morning as they wanted it to be done, because those moneys weren't kept at Police Headquarters, those moneys were paid in at certain insurance companies, to get interest and that. Only then did they understand that. The rest of the moneys, they wanted. Gen Nqoya and Brigadier Nkani and Giba, they were taken by some members to the Bisho Police Headquarters, to go and get I don't know if it is cheques or what, but to go and organise and to go and work out what moneys must be drawn for the members to be paid out. That according to me, was their main cause the whole evening. The meeting that was, if I can just come back to the 22nd, the morning of the 22nd, the meeting that was to be held at the Bisho Police College hall that morning, the Inspectors, that is why only the Inspectors were summoned to that meeting, the Inspectors were going to be addressed by two Ciskei Police Inspectors who were sent, I think it was to Pretoria, I am not sure, to be informed about procedures that would have to be followed in training members for duties and what is expected of the Police at the forthcoming elections as they had never performed duties in such instances. That is what the meeting was supposed to be for.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have mentioned that there was, it was chaotic there, it looked like a circus to you. Whilst they were talking, what language were they using?

MR SIMS: They were talking Xhosa, they were talking English.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you yourself, you understand Xhosa and you can speak it very well?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Obose?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sims, maybe we have to come to look at your definition of a political gathering. Is there a specific definition that can be given to a political gathering, can you define, or can anybody indeed, define a political gathering or what would constitute a political gathering?

MR SIMS: A political gathering as I know it from the Police's side, Mr Chairman, is where you've got your let's say two or more people gathering political aims.

MR OBOSE: And what constitutes a political aim?

MR SIMS: It depends what political party I suppose, you are on. My political aims and their political aims will be different.

MR OBOSE: All right. Is it only people who are affiliated to parties who can talk things political?

MR SIMS: I am sure it is not, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Can't Policemen think or talk political generally speaking, I am not saying that is correct to do so?

MR SIMS: I am sure they can, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Right, now I am a bit curious what in your view should have been said in that meeting, to constitute political talk? I just want to get your impressions because your impression is that this was not political. What should have been said or you know, for you to conclude that this was political, this meeting?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, if we can say this was a meeting and it would have been a political meeting, or political talk, I would have supposed some political organisation would have been mentioned, some action plans, if they had any political action plan, could have been mentioned, but nothing of that was mentioned.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, you are talking about Policemen here, we are not talking about members of a liberation movement. Are you supposing that the nature of the talk would be the same or should have been the same?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, if the Policemen wanted to as they alleged, wanted to overthrow or to let Brigadier Gqozo step down, I am sure that whether they are Policemen or whether you are a private person or whatever the case may be, your aims are the same, so I think the way in addressing it, would be the same.

MR OBOSE: All right. Mr Sims, fortunately you are attached to the Riot Unit, I am sure you should know what I am talking about. Is it correct Mr Sims, that in general any coup even the aborted one in Lesotho, has the effect, one of its characteristics is that either the Ministers but certainly the Army and senior Policemen get taken hostage, isn't that correct?

MR SIMS: I have read that, but I wasn't involved in one myself yet, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: I am talking about generally speaking, I mean we read about these things in the papers, myself included Mr Sims.

MR SIMS: I have read about it Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Isn't that correct?

MR SIMS: I can't say it is correct, I have read about it Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, as a Policeman and a senior one at that, isn't that essentially what constitutes a coup, that the people who are in charge of the military Forces, are rendered helpless such that they are not able to issue instructions which would have the effect of defending the person who is the Head of State, isn't that essentially what a coup is?

MR SIMS: It usually works like that, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Isn't that what effectively happened that day and night? Isn't it that plus minus 50 Officers of the Ciskei Police were at the Police College and somewhat coincidentally if one were to follow your line of argument, somewhat coincidentally that very night, Gqozo resigned?

MR SIMS: It was just funny to me Mr Chairman, that if that was their aim and that is why I decided to oppose the application as well, that was on seeing that they said that it was a political, the applicants said it was a political motivation and it was absolute nonsense according to me, because there was nothing, it is just funny that they will take all the Officers hostage, but the Officers would be made fools of, talking about money, there was nothing whatsoever at that whole meeting, said about ousting Brigadier Gqozo, nothing, except the singing, and as I said, with the singing as soon as they brought in an Officer, where money was involved, the name from Gqozo was changed to that Officer's name.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, let's change the scenario, let's suppose it is a Committee, ordinary football club or dart club and the general members are not happy about what his going on in that club, and the Executive is made to join a group that sings and says "down with the Chairman" and the Chairman somehow from intelligence sources learns that oh, my club is meeting and people are chanting "down with me" and my Executive is with them and resigns, what would you call that, removal of that Executive, of the Chairman, doesn't it amount to that?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I don't think this is my personal opinion, I don't think we can an organisation like the Police and the Army where they play a different role, can be compared to a club. That is totally a different thing.

MR OBOSE: No, no, answer the question. I didn't ask you to, I said I changed the scenario.

MR SIMS: I have never been part of a club where the Chairman was forced to resign, I can't comment on that.

MR OBOSE: No, I gave you the facts. I am asking you from the facts which I gave you.

MR SIMS: I don't know what would happen Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: No, I am saying from my set of facts, the Chairman resigns, wouldn't it be said that the effect of that meeting was arranged to let the Executive or the Chairman to resign, isn't that what you would say?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, I have to object. Whilst I believe that Mr Obose is asking maybe what he believes is a genuine question, but with respect Mr Chairman, the facts he is putting, are not the same with the facts on the day in question. It is just what he perceives as something which could happen. That becomes an unfair question to Mr Sims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Mr Nompozolo is saying is that you are asking the witness to speculate. Isn't it better for you to stick to the facts of this case, seeing that we have the facts before us, and leave the club? I don't know whether the examples add anything further to the hard facts of this case, perhaps you can work with the facts.

MR OBOSE: Well Mr Chairman, on the objection, I was not saying the witness should make an analogy at all. What I was saying was what would commonly happen, but of course, the witness has evaded the question in any event, and I cannot take it any further. The witness evaded to answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OBOSE: I will not take it any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it is also a question that you can address in argument, if it is necessary.

MR OBOSE: As the Chairman pleases. Now, you say nothing political was said. What about the slogan "down with Gqozo"? You said nothing about Gqozo was said? Is that what you said?

MR SIMS: I said Mr Chairman, I said in the singing, that is the only place where Gqozo's name came to the fore and that they changed according to whoever came in, but right during the night, while we were there, nothing else was said about Gqozo stepping down, except as I said when Mr Goosen came and he told them.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, you understand Xhosa, you said?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR OBOSE: To say down with the Head of State, what does that imply?

MR SIMS: To say down with the Head of State, I presume that the Head of State at that stage was Brigadier Gqozo, that he must step down.

MR OBOSE: Yes, now what do you mean nothing was said?

MR SIMS: That he must resign.

MR OBOSE: Yes. Now what do you mean that nothing was said about him stepping down, etc, or resigning or something political?

MR SIMS: No, I did not say, Mr Chairman, I did not say nothing was said. I said the only time I heard that something was said about Brigadier Gqozo was when they sang and they said "down with Gqozo". I said that changed right during the night. If they want to make that political, that is the only time that political things were said.

MR OBOSE: You say an action plan had to be mapped out, I find it a bit strange to understand. Mapped out in a meeting, an action plan should have been, is that, do I understand you to be talking about action plans, mapped out in a gathering of over, maybe over 2 000, 3 000 people, I don't understand that? Is that what normally happens, 3 000 people maps out a plan?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I don't think the Ciskei Police consisted of 3 000 people, I think they were closer to 2 000, if it was 2 000, but be that as it may be. Why I said there was - and proof of that is a lot of these applicants that gave evidence, did not go what was going on in that meeting, that proves my point that no plan of action, that meeting had no plan of action and that is why I said that they had no political venue there. That was something that was made up according to my, myself, that was something that was made up by them.

MR OBOSE: All right. Mr Sims, I am not sure, you were here as from Monday, I am not sure what you make out of the fact that Police armed themselves with R5 rifles, they patrolled the parameters of the Bisho Police College, you yourself said a casspir armoured vehicle had blocked a road out of the College, Officers were rounded up and brought to the College. What more could have been done or should have been done in the context, to fit in with your understanding of an action plan?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, the arming of the Policemen, the blocking of the road, the blocking of the road was to prevent us, if I say us, the Officers, to leave the premises. That I saw later when we were in the meeting, the reason for that. The arming of the members, that was said by themselves at the meeting, that the South African Police Riot Unit or Stability Unit, were called in and they were going to mobilise at King William's Town, that they would come and free the hostages and that they can arm themselves as well, they've also go the same arms as the Police, let's say Riot Unit.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, for anything to happen, there must be a reason, that is generally human nature, isn't that so?

MR SIMS: That is so.

MR OBOSE: For an overthrow, a coup to occur, there must be some grievance, isn't that so?

MR SIMS: I am sure there must be.

MR OBOSE: Now, the grievance can be anything, it could be that Police are not paid, it could be that soldiers were not paid as we read in other countries this happened, isn't that so? There must be a reason for a coup to happen, it doesn't occur in the air, is that so?

MR SIMS: It must be, yes.

MR OBOSE: And naturally, the reason why the coup which is the cause of the coup, would essentially in the course of discussions tend to be central in whatever discussion the people who will eventually stage the coup, will talk about, isn't that what would be expected? It will feature, the reason will feature in the course of the discussion? For this reason, therefore we can't have this person in charge?

MR SIMS: That is exactly Mr Chairman, what I thought, that if they planned to overthrow or to take action for Brigadier Gqozo to step down, it would surface at the meeting.

MR OBOSE: And it never surfaced despite the sloganeering and the singing according to you?

MR SIMS: It never surfaced, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: I am sure never will, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairperson, just a few. Colonel, am I correct if I call you Colonel? Colonel Sims, when did you, when were you seconded to the Ciskei Police Force?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I think March, sometime 1992, early 1992.

MR MAPOMA: And the Head of State was Brigadier Gqozo, already then, am I correct?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that when you were brought into the College hall, you had nothing to do with moneys, Police moneys, you did not embezzle any money and I take it as well that no allegations were levelled against you?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: And I also take it that you had nothing to do with the positioning of the Police Officers?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: And the only sin that you had in the eyes of the applicants of course, was that you are a senior Police Officer?

MR SIMS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the only reason why you were brought into that hall as far as you could see, yourself as well?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that you are not the only Police Officer, you are not the only senior Police Officer against whom no allegations were levelled, who was kept hostage there?

MR SIMS: That is true, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: When they demanded the keys to the armoury, did they ultimately gain access to the armoury as far as you know?

MR SIMS: They eventually gained access, Mr Chairman, they got the keys.

MR MAPOMA: And then they effectively armed themselves?

MR SIMS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Did it not occur to you that something of a coup was being planned as a result of this forceful armoury being gained entry to, by these revolutionary forces now? Did it not occur perhaps in your mind?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, nothing. I did not think anything about a coup or them trying to force Brigadier Gqozo to step down. As I said earlier on, the preparations for the forthcoming elections or the then forthcoming elections, were already being made. That is what they were called to the hall for. I didn't think that they were planning for it.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. I thought Lieutenant perhaps you could link the slogans "down with Gqozo" and the forceful access to armoury, with that intended purpose. Did it not occur to your mind perhaps?

MR SIMS: Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. You said in your evidence in chief that the only thing that you heard, referring to politics now, was when it was announced that Gqozo had since resigned and I take it that it was announced in that hall that he has resigned?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Ms Collett, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Colonel is it correct that these people at some stage wanted Brigadier Gqozo to come and address them about their pensions?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I can't recall that, but I won't deny that either.

MS COLLETT: Was anybody at any stage mandated to go and tell Brigadier Gqozo that senior members had been taken hostage to secure him resigning his post?

MR SIMS: Not at all that I heard there, Mr Chairman, nothing that I heard.

MS COLLETT: Could you tell us what the situation was when Commissioner Nqoya's wife and child were brought to the Commission?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, when the wife and child was brought, they were also mocked. It was actually, I can't remember exactly what was said, but I thought immediately that if that was my child and wife, if we get out of here, action will definitely have to be taken. They were also ill-treated, if I say ill-treated, not manhandled, but insulted.

MS COLLETT: If there was a political motivation for all these things, could you comment on the necessity to belittle, insult and have such disregard for the superiors?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I can't see what the wife and child of Gen Nqoya could have done there in that situation. As I said, that was also an indication that they wanted the Commissioner there to hear about the pensions and their moneys.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that there was an announcement or that information was given that Brigadier Gqozo had stepped down early in the evening already?

MR SIMS: There was, the only announcement Mr Chairman that I heard as I said was when Mr Goosen arrived. I think it was roundabout nine o'clock, I am not sure, between eight and ten o'clock, but I think it was about nine o'clock. Him and two other gentlemen arrived and he informed the meeting that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that even after that, superior Officers were being brought to the Police College and these proceedings against the Officers and people being kept against their will, continued?

MR SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman. I can perhaps just further the answer here as well by saying that even after the announcement was made that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, there was no joy, there was nothing, they just carried on looking for Officers involving their money and the pensions.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett. Are there any questions from the panel?

ADV BOSMAN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Nompozolo?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Subsequent to the announcement that Brigadier Gqozo has resigned, did the slogans continue?

MR SIMS: The slogans continued right through the night.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When it is said "down with Gqozo, down with Makwethu", does it mean that Makwethu should resign or does it mean that Makwethu has fallen in disfavour?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, I took it at that stage that Captain Makwethu and even Commissioner Nqoya, they had fallen in disfavour as a result of the moneys that they allegedly took.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And would you say the same about Brigadier Gqozo, that he had fallen in disfavour, that is why they were saying down with him?

MR SIMS: I took it as disfavour, Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, you were asked whether you can't link the fact that people armed, Police armed themselves and the chanting of the slogans. Was it announced, the purpose of arming the Police?

MR SIMS: Mr Chairman, as I said earlier on, at some stage, I think it is just before the got the keys from Colonel Vuso, when they went over to the armoury to go and get the arms, the reason for arming themselves was that they said that the South African Police Service's Riot Unit was mobilising in King and that they were going to try and free the hostages and that the Ciskei, the then Ciskei Policemen at the hall were arming themselves and that they would defend themselves.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Sims, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am calling now Mr Adoni.

CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Adoni come forward and just remain standing and just switch on the microphone, the red button. Can

you give your full name for the record please?

MR ADONI: Thembile Mishack Adoni.

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. Mr Nompozolo?

EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Adoni, during the month of March 1994, it is common cause that you were a Ciskeian Policeman?

MR ADONI: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And on the 22nd of March 1994, what rank were you holding?

MR ADONI: I was a Major.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Which Unit were you attached to?

MR ADONI: Efficiency Services.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you at work on the 22nd of March 1994?

MR ADONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you were at work the whole day?

MR ADONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, you subsequently went home after work?

MR ADONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At that stage, when you knocked off at work, did you know that there was a meeting at Bisho Police College?

MR ADONI: No, I did not know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you went home and you slept with your family, is that correct?

MR ADONI: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What happened during the early hours of the morning?

MR ADONI: I want to start from seven o'clock on the 22nd of March. In the news bulletin at half past seven, it was announced that some senior Officers were at the College, Police College who were taken by the junior Police Officers. Even on TV, we could see the Officers at the College. Again in the news bulletin at nine o'clock, it was announced that Gqozo had resigned. I went to bed. At about two o'clock in the morning, on the 23rd, I was awoken up by the knocks at all my windows and even the doors, people were knocking. They were shouting from outside, telling me to open the door. This went on to such an extent that one of the back windows was broken. I refused because at that time, my wife and my children were awoken up. I refused to open and my wife forced me to open. When I peeped through the window, I saw the Police cars. My wife ended up opening the door. When these people came in, this person that I saw was Tondile, I saw the other one, that was Mshimpela. There was another one who was also coming in, I saw him later, that was Sergeant Vileam. He is the one who uttered some words asking me the reason why I did not open the door. I told him that he is not supposed to ask me that kind of a question in my own house. He said we are here to fetch you. I told them that I am not going anywhere and I enquired where to. He told me that I cannot say anything like that after embezzling funds. We argued until Tondile interfered. I went to dress up. I went out and they wanted a key to the car. Another thing is this, my house has got a kraal, there are two gates. They are locked, both of them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry Mr Chairman. I think there is something which has been incorrectly interpreted. It can mean the kraal yes, the Interpreter is right, but in this context it is meant the wall, the fence, the fencing by use of (indistinct), not necessarily that the interpretation was wrong, but contextually.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a fence with two gates?

MR ADONI: Yes.

MR ADONI: It is a wall with two gates.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR ADONI: During the night, we normally lock those gates. I realised that they did not open the gate, they just jumped the wall. Vileam was armed with an R4 or R5. He was having that firearm when I was going to my room, he was with me also. I dressed up. I went out, he took me to one of the cars outside. On our way in Zwelitsha, we met with a car that I identified it as Brigadier Condo's car. It was also driven by Police. The Police that were with me in the car, stopped. They talked to the others and they told them not to continue because I was with them in the car. I was told to alight from that vehicle, to get to the other one. The car left and the way that this car, the manner this car was driven, an owner of a car would not do that to his own car. It was even difficult for them to stop at the robots or traffic lights. It stopped at Brigadier Suys' place, even there, they went inside but they came back saying that they couldn't find him. I went to clarify that I couldn't identify these Police, I only knew their faces. We left there for the College. Even there, I was pointed with a gun, I was pointed at with a firearm to get inside. They said here is one of them. I went up, joining the other Police Officers at the podium. I am certain that we arrived at the same time with Captain Sawuti because when I was there on the podium, he was here next to me. I was given a microphone, but after Captain Sawuti refused to talk through the microphone, I was told to identify, to introduce myself or identify myself and tell the people about my rank and where I was based. I did so. I sat down after that. When I looked at the situation, it was such a confusing situation because the other one would raise another subject and the other one would say something else. What I grasped there in that process is that they were talking about the moneys that were embezzled or (indistinct). They were talking about pension funds or pension moneys. The time was about half past three. I went towards the direction of the toilet on the podium, I sat there. I went out at about five, that is when I saw Brigadier Nkani and Brigadier Giba being brought inside. They were not coming in voluntarily. They were driven with R5's and R1's or something like that. They were also taken up to the podium, they were given the microphones, they were questioned about the money. At about seven o'clock in the morning, Jurgens came. They had told them that they were waiting for Jurgens to decide on those cases. Jurgens came, he told them that what they were doing was wrong. He was being forced to take a decision about our cases. He said though he couldn't take any decision, but myself and Captain Sawuti and Captain Dolweni and Captain Gqibithole, we had to be charged for fraud. He said that he was doing all that under pressure, and we were supposed to pay for bail and we were not supposed to be arrested or being put behind the bars. There was excitement in the house, we were driven out, it was myself and Captain Sawuti, we were taken into a van and inside that van Kopel came and he took us out of that van, he took us to some car or vehicle. We were taken to Bisho Police station. When we arrived there, we were charged and Gen Nqoya came and Dolweni and Makwethu. It was realised that there was no court in Zwelitsha, we went to Jurgens to ask him what is it that he was going to do about the situation. He told us to pay the bail at the Police station and he told us that the bail shouldn't be more than R100-00. He told us that he couldn't do otherwise, but we should be careful after getting out of that place. We paid the bail. I went home. That is the end.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, who is Jurgens, what was he?

MR ADONI: He was the Attorney General.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Obose, any questions?

MR OBOSE: No questions for this witness, Your Worship.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Panel, any questions? Thank you. Re-examination?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Adoni, you are excused. Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nompozolo, is there anything else that you can do, or does that take care of those witnesses that can testify at this stage?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, my position is that there is one, Dolweni, I am intending to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is he able to testify at this stage?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He is able to testify at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, very well.

MR NOMPOZOLO: There is only one who is not able to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolweni then. Please give us your full names.

MR DOLWENI: Xolisele Coleman Dolweni.

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Nompozolo?

EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dolweni, it is common cause that during March 1994, you were a Policeman in the then Ciskei?

MR DOLWENI: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: It is also common cause that there was a meeting at Bisho Police College?

MR DOLWENI: Chairperson, I don't have any knowledge about the meeting because on the 22nd of March 1994, I was in court at Zwelitsha.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes. What was your rank then?

MR DOLWENI: I was already a Captain.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, what happened on the 22nd of March 1994? The 23rd, sorry.

MR DOLWENI: On the 23rd, at about quarter past seven, I was going through the Parliament gate, I was going to my office. Inspector Luwana called me, he was with Inspector Gola, they were driving a kombi, a Husky. Inspector Luwana came to me, he told me that all the Police were at the Police College, so he told me to get inside the car to go there. Indeed as he said, I got to the car, we drove to the Police College. When we arrived at the Police College, we found out that they were leaving for the stadium, they were going to the stadium. He told me not to get out of that car, because we are going to the stadium. We went to the stadium. When I arrived at the gate at the stadium, Inspector Matigani arrived. He told Inspector Luwana that he (indistinct) arrived at the Police station, Major Kopel told me that Mr Jurgens had decided for us to be charged concerning the money that we were accused of. They took my finger prints there. When we finished there, we were taken to the Supreme Court to Mr Jurgens. We met Mr Jurgens there, he said to us he knew that we were Police. Because of the pressure that was imposed on him, he was forced to prosecute us even though he did not see the docket yet. He then told us to pay money, bail money of about R100-00. We paid that money at Bisho Police station, we were then given a date on Monday, to go to Zwelitsha Court. That is all, sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Obose, any questions?

MR OBOSE: I have no questions for this witness.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo. Mr Dolweni, you are excused.

MR DOLWENI: Thank you sir.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Thus far, Mr Chairman, those are the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett, are you able to deal with the evidence that you were going to present to us?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, unfortunately my witness is not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Has he just temporarily left or has he departed completely or are you not sure?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, I am not actually sure. I think he might have thought that he would only get a turn tomorrow because there were several witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You are not able to ascertain whether he is still present?

MS COLLETT: If you give me a short adjournment, I can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will just stand down for a few moments.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

NO FURTHER MECHANICAL RECORDING