CHAIRPERSON: I'm Judge Pillay and I'm going to ask my colleagues and the various representatives to announce themselves for the purposes of the record.
JUDGE POTGIETER: Denzil Potgieter.
ADV SIBANYONI: I'm J B Sibanyoni.
MR MAPOMA: I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Lundi Nompozolo for the applicant.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I'm calling the application of Moses Vuyani Mamani, application number 5265/97.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Nompozolo? Is this the applicant?
MR NOMPOZOLO: That is correct, Mr Chairperson. Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, first let me apologise for starting so late. I have sent one of my articled clerks at about 8 o'clock to go and fetch the applicants so that they may depose to an affidavit which I have drafted on their instructions. Now there was a communication breakdown between the applicant and my articled clerk. I left my office at about ten to nine and I learnt about half past nine that that was the time they met, the applicant and my articled clerk. That is the reason for the delay, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the actual reason for the delay? Are you saying the communication breakdown was the reason for the delay?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, that is correct, Chairperson, the communication breakdown between them.
CHAIRPERSON: You know, from certain quarters in this country they always point fingers at our people from this end of the country, the Eastern Cape. I really don't believe that our people are incapable of telling time and doing normal things like normal people do. I'm getting tired of people saying in the Eastern Cape we're always delayed because of communication gaps, breakdowns and we can't tell time, etc. The time has come for us to behave like other people and be punctual when we must be punctual. I hope you can carry that over to your clients. We're not busy playing games here.
Mr Mamani, what language would you choose to speak?
MR MAMANI: Xhosa.
MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, before you attorney carries on, which hotel are you staying at?
MR MAMANI: Holiday Inn.
CHAIRPERSON: Why were you late?
MR MAMANI: I didn't know at what time the hearing was going to start and the person who came I saw him at about half past nine and he told us that we were needed to attend because Mr Nompozolo is expecting us.
CHAIRPERSON: You received notice of this hearing, not so?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: What did the notice say?
MR MAMANI: It said that the hearing is going to take place from the 1st up to the 5th, it will start at about 9 o'clock.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at this venue.
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And you are an applicant in one of these hearings?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for you to be collected like a little boy or a little child and be brought here, why couldn't you see to it that you were here yourself? You were not in jail, you were not kept back.
MR MAMANI: I do not know this area, I don't even know the place that I am right now.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you have any future applications that you have to appear for and not necessarily before me, you see to it that you are here on time, do you understand?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: After all you are the person that's making the application, do you understand?
MR MAMANI: Yes I do understand.
CHAIRPERSON: There are many other people who need to have their hearings done, in particular those who are still languishing in jail and we haven't got time to waste.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, the applicant has deposed to an affidavit and I think for the purposes of the record I will read the affidavit and we ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why were we not blessed with a copy thereof?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I once more apologise on what they did this morning, they went to my office, the applicants, and they were only given the original to go on commission whereas the instruction I gave was that they must be given the affidavit and the copies and then they can only be commissioned by the police here. Instead they were only given, Chairperson, just the original. Chairperson, the copies are on the way, I have arranged that they be dispersed to here as soon as possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, it doesn't end there, why wasn't this affidavit and your work completely like last week?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Chairperson, we had a problem, we only got instructions last week and the applicants only arrived yesterday at about 9 o'clock from Cape Town. The applicants are from Cape Town.
CHAIRPERSON: And you could not contact the applicants before then?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I was told Chairperson that the applicants don't have money they will have to be paid for by the TRC and to be booked for in the hotel by the TRC and they only arrived yesterday.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Chairperson.
Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the matter between Moses Vuyani Mamani, applicant.
"I, the undersigned, Moses Vuyani Mamani" ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why can't he give that evidence himself, can't you lead him from the affidavit?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I can do that Chairperson, thank you.
Mr Mamani, is it correct that you made an affidavit in this matter?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
MR NOMPOZOLO: And can you tell the Commission where were you born?
MR MAMANI: I was born in Cape Town.
MR NOMPOZOLO: On which date?
MR MAMANI: I was born on the 4th March 1968.
MR NOMPOZOLO: How many are you in the family?
MR MAMANI: Four children.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Where did you grow up?
MR MAMANI: I was in Cape Town, I grew up at Ilingi?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Where is Ilingi?
MR MAMANI: Ilingi is just outside Queenstown.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Where did you start your primary education?
MR MAMANI: I started at Ilingi.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you finish your education at Ilingi?
MR MAMANI: No in 1979 I went back to Cape Town, I beg your pardon, in 1977 I went back to Cape Town.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, at Cape Town what was your highest standard passed?
MR MAMANI: I went up to Standard 7 in Cape Town.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes and what is your highest standard passed at school?
MR MAMANI: I left school after passing standard 9.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, did you go into exile?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
MR NOMPOZOLO: When was that?
MR MAMANI: From 1987.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, are you a member of a liberation movement? Were you a member of a liberation movement?
MR MAMANI: Yes I was a member of the African National Congress and it's military wing uMkhonto weSizwe, that is.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, when did you join uMkhonto weSizwe?
MR MAMANI: I joined in 1985 here in South Africa.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now why did you go into exile?
MR MAMANI: After becoming a member of MK in 1985 I realised that it was difficult for me to operate as a member of the organisation and the police knew that we were involved therefore we were told that we should cross the borders.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now did you receive military training?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Where?
MR MAMANI: I was trained in Angola.
MR NOMPOZOLO: When did you come back to South Africa?
MR MAMANI: I came back to South Africa in 1991.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you still recall the incident at Frankfort?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission what happened? I'm sorry, Chairperson, when did that take place?
MR MAMANI: That took place in 1992, in August 1992.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what happened?
MR MAMANI: It was myself and four comrades, I was the fifth one. We went to a police station at Frankfort. When we arrived there there was a policeman who was in the van outside sleeping and the other one was sleeping in the police station in the main building of the police station. We awakened the other one who was sleeping in the car and we told him to open and wake up his colleague who was sleeping inside.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Just before we proceed with that, how did it come about that you were a group of five and you went to Frankfort, what happened before that?
MR MAMANI: After coming from the exile I worked for the African National Congress in the security department. In 1992 myself and the other comrades who were guarding Comrade Chris Hani, he had given us the instruction to collect the firearm so that we could be able to defend our communities and to be able to train the people for defence in our communities and we decided that the place to get the firearms was this police station, that is why we went to that police station.
MR NOMPOZOLO: So the people who went to the police station, from whom did they get the instruction to do that, who authorised that?
MR MAMANI: First of all it was an agreement from all of us to go to that particular police station and get firearms as we had been there during the day on that particular day and we realised that it was possible for us to get firearms there therefore we took that decision.
CHAIRPERSON: Who gave the order or who authorised it, the plan to go to the police station?
MR MAMANI: We got that authorisation from Chris who told us to try and organise some weapons in order to train and protect the community, that became our responsibility as soldiers.
CHAIRPERSON: In which capacity did Mr Hani give that approval, as head of what?
MR MAMANI: At the time of the incident he was in the higher ranks of the MK as the chief of the MK. He issued that instruction as the Chief of Staff.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you. Now you are saying you went there as a group. Did you belong to any political organisation?
CHAIRPERSON: He's already said whatever he said was in as a member of the ANC and in particular as an operative of MK.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you are already there now, you've woken up this policeman. What happened?
MR MAMANI: After ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Who was in command of that small unit?
MR MAMANI: The commander of this particular unit was Comrade Mamalise.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes? do you know his surname?
MR MAMANI: Mamalise Sewu.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MAMANI: When I arrived at this police station I saw a policeman sleeping and we woke him up and we told him to go and ...(inaudible) and we looked at the police station and saw the van outside and next to the police station and realised that there was a policeman inside with a firearm between his legs and we could see in the same van there was another policeman but we're not sure if he had a firearm. We told this other policeman and knocked and the police station and ...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER: Can you hear me? Any sound coming on 2?
MR MAMANI: When we arrived at the police station there was a police van in front of the police station. We tried to look around. After that we realised that there were two policemen and the other one was sleeping in this police van, the one that was outside the police station but the doors were not locked and the other policeman was sleeping inside the police station on a chair. We could see that through some opening and this policeman had a firearm. We woke the one policeman that was outside sleeping in the van, we told him to go and knock at the police station and wake this other policeman up because we were there to get firearms at the police station.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you told the policeman that was sleeping in the van?
MR MAMANI: Yes, when he woke up he was scared, that's what we told him and he was shaking because we were also armed with firearms pointing at him.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you have?
MR MAMANI: I was armed with an Uzzi.
CHAIRPERSON: A lot of people talk about an Uzzi, what is it's correct name or is that the correct name?
MR MAMANI: That is what I know, that is the only name that I know.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?
MR MAMANI: This policeman was frightened, he was not relaxed he was scared. We told him that he was not going to be hurt but he must just open the door and we told him that we knew that there was a safe inside and we wanted him to open there so that we could get the firearm. At the time we were - it's not all of us who were talking to him but I remember myself and this policeman, there was a struggle and I overpowered him and he fell. After falling I went straight there to the door and I kicked the door open. We got in, the two of us, and there was firing.
CHAIRPERSON: You are talking too fast. You went there and you asked the police to open the door. What happened?
MR MAMANI: The police did not open the door, we ended up struggling with each other. He was holding me because he was trying to hide behind me, that's what I was thinking at the time and I ended up overpowering him, I hit him and he fell and after that I turned looking at the door where I kicked the door open, the door of the police station. After that the door was opened and the one policeman who was inside stood up. During that process when we were getting in after kicking the door a shot rang outside. When I turned trying to see what was happening and Mamalise said "this person is running away", he said this person was running away, apparently he had shot this person. I ignored that, I went back to the house, to the building. This other policeman's firearm had fallen on the other side because he was also shot. We took the firearm and we told him to open the safe and he told us that the keys belonging to the safe were not with them they were just there on duty for the night, they were not keeping the keys for the safe and he was also shaking, he was scared, crying at the same time. We tried to calm him down, we told him that he was not going to be hurt even the one who was injured outside, it was all his fault, that's what I told this policeman inside, I told him that he was not going to be hurt because of his own fault, he was also frightened. I told him to run away or to leave. He ran away and we went out of the police station firing in the air and we were also running towards the gate, we were just firing in the air. We went back to the car.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you leave the firearms with the safe or what?
MR MAMANI: We left the firearms in the safe because we couldn't open the safe.
CHAIRPERSON: So did you get anything?
MR MAMANI: Yes. We got two firearms, a 9 mm parabellum and a .38.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you people take there? Go slowly?
MR MAMANI: We got a 9 mm parabellum one, there was a P38, we got a 7.65 pistol, only one.
CHAIRPERSON: 7 - .765?
MR MAMANI: Some call it .765 some call it 7.65. It is a small pistol.
CHAIRPERSON: 7.65? Yes, proceed? You say a 7.65 mm what?
MR MAMANI: It is a pistol.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what else?
MR MAMANI: We got these two pistols from this police station, the other one was a 9 mm and the other was a 7.65.
CHAIRPERSON: Only two pistols you got?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So is that all you took from the police station?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And you ran away?
MR MAMANI: Yes we ran away.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you ...(intervention)
MR MAMANI: We told this policeman to run away.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you find these two firearms?
MR MAMANI: One firearm was with the policeman who was inside but it was not in his hand. After kicking the door open I saw the firearm that had fallen on the other side and the policeman was standing on the other side crying and the second pistol we got it from the policeman who was outside.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there any ammunition in the firearms?
MR MAMANI: Yes there was ammunition, yes there was ammunition in both of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Just the magazine that was in the pistol.
MR MAMANI: Yes, each pistol had it's one magazine?
CHAIRPERSON: And that was all?
MR MAMANI: Yes but I don't know how many bullets were in.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you. Carry on?
MR MAMANI: When we left the police station we drove to a certain house in Mdantsane. When we arrived there this house was used by the comrades, the ANC comrades were using this house. We got in there and we made friends with these comrades but they didn't know anything about our visit but they saw the firearms but they didn't know how did we get the firearms and the operations that we were involved in, they knew nothing about it.
CHAIRPERSON: What eventually happened to those firearms?
MR MAMANI: We went to Cape Town with these firearms. After that as we wanted the firearms to train people we gave these firearms to the other people to train the comrades. That was the last time we saw those firearms, we handed them over to the comrades in the townships in order to train the other people.
CHAIRPERSON: Who did you give it to?
MR MAMANI: There were many comrades there. Some firearms were kept ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I didn't ask you how many comrades, I asked who did the firearms - who received the firearms?
MR MAMANI: We gave them to comrade Dalasile, he was the one who was keeping the firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was Dalasile?
MR MAMANI: Dalasile was a comrade who was also a member of the MK, who was also a member of SANCO.
CHAIRPERSON: But was it his job to see to training or to co-ordinate training in Cape Town?
MR MAMANI: The duties that were given to him was to keep the firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you next see Mr Hani?
MR MAMANI: I did not see him after coming back from the Ciskei.
CHAIRPERSON: No, when did you see him after leaving the police station?
MR MAMANI: I did not see him after this incident of the police station.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether a report was made to him about the success or otherwise of this operation at the police station?
MR MAMANI: I suspect but I cannot say for sure because after that we were taken by the provincial command who wanted a report and he made that report.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?
MR MAMANI: I was still answering the questions.
MR NOMPOZOLO: So you went to Mdantsane and you met these comrades, what happened?
CHAIRPERSON: He went to Cape Town and handed over the guns to Dalasile in Cape Town whose duty it was to keep the firearms in safe custody.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairperson, there is another incident which occurred at Mdantsane.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you. Now you met the comrades at Mdantsane, you made friends with them, what happened?
MR MAMANI: After a day or two, after this incident of the police station, Frankfort Police Station, one of the comrades, Kabane Muntsu ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Kabane Muntsu?
MR JAMIE: Kabane Muntsu, it is M-U-N-T-S-U. That was a combat name, his real name was Pumalele but I do not know his surname.
CHAIRPERSON: You said Kabane Muntsu, how do you spell Kabane?
MR MAMANI: Kabane means comrade.
CHAIRPERSON: Well is that not his name?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now Muntsu - carry on, you met this Muntsu there?
MR MAMANI: Comrade Muntsu and asked me and Monandise to accompany him, he would like to see a certain family that he hadn't seen for a long time and he also had a friend there that he wanted to see. On our way to this place we met with a police van, they tried to stop us.
CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were there?
MR MAMANI: The three of us, it was myself Monagise and Muntsu. Muntsu was a driver, Monagise was occupying the passenger seat and I was at the back seat of the car and we were armed because we were expecting anything to happen at that time.
We met with this police van that was coming from behind. I saw them when they were flickering lights, trying to pull aside and wait. We did not want to stop here and we told the driver to continue driving, he was told by Monagise to continue. As we were approaching the cross-roads junction and Monagise told him to continue driving and turn to the right hand side and accelerate. Just before he could do that, as he was trying to turn to the right hand side at this cross-roads junction, as we were still approaching this cross-roads junction, the police van was trying to overtake and block the way at the front and we had to go through to the left hand side of the car and firing took place in that process. Monagise was armed with an R5 rifle, he fired and shouting to the driver to stop the car and the car stopped and we alighted ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: So both parties started to shoot at each other, there was a shoot-out?
MR MAMANI: No, the first person to shoot as far as I can remember was Monabise. When the police were trying to overtake Muntsu was trying to turn to the right but the police tried to overtake on the left hand side and block the car and they came straight to Monabise's side and he started firing and he shouted that the driver should stop the car and then the car stopped. We alighted and we were shooting going towards the van. Before I could alight from the vehicle I realised that the van was no longer on the road, it was on the other side of the pavement and it looked like there was a stone on the other side, a big stone. The car was not straight, the police van was not straight because of this stone that was underneath. I noticed that and I got out of the car and I started firing. I opened the door of the car and I took this 9 mm parabellum, the one that was from the policemen and I took that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, you're going too fast. This motor vehicle the police was driving in, what was it, a van or a car or what?
MR MAMANI: It was a van.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?
MR MAMANI: When I got into that van I opened the door, I took this 9 mm parabellum. After taking this firearm and we searched these people because we thought it's either they were dead or they were injured.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this police van overturned somewhat?
MR MAMANI: It was slightly - it had slanted because of the stone, the big stone that was underneath.
CHAIRPERSON: And then when you opened the door there how many occupants did you find?
MR MAMANI: I saw two policemen, two policemen were in that car.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they conscious?
MR MAMANI: When I looked at them I told myself that those people were dead.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you removed what?
MR MAMANI: We took two pistols, a 9 mm pistol ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You took it?
MR MAMANI: I took one 9 mm, the one that was lying on top of the policeman.
CHAIRPERSON: And who took the other firearm?
MR MAMANI: I cannot remember about the second one but after doing that we ran away, we did not go back to the car and we went to a wall or fence and we jumped over that and we threw the firearms on the other side.
CHAIRPERSON: You what?
MR MAMANI: We threw the firearms on the other side.
CHAIRPERSON: What's happening?
MR MAMANI: After taking these firearms we did not go back to our car.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by throwing the firearms the other side?
MR MAMANI: On the direction that we were running to, it was a yard, I think it was a yard, there was a garage inside and there was this high wall and it was very difficult for us to jump this wall having firearms therefore we decided to throw them on the other side and then we jumped after that. I remember very well that the pistol was with me and I threw that pistol over the wall and after that we picked them up after jumping this high wall and we picked them up and we ran again.
CHAIRPERSON: With the firearms?
MR MAMANI: We were running away with the firearms that were with us when we got into the car and the other two firearms that we got in that police van.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now what caused you not to go back to the car you were travelling in?
MR MAMANI: As I was explaining that we were approaching this cross-roads junction. There was a barrage of bullets from the direction of the cross-roads junction from a car that was on the other side, the one that I thought it was a police casspir and they were shooting towards our car therefore it was difficult for us to go back to our own car. We ran and we jumped this high fence, high wall that I was talking about.
CHAIRPERSON: What happened to those firearms that you took from the police van?
MR MAMANI: We took these firearms and we went back to Mdantsane at this particular house where we met with the other comrades who were with us at Frankfort Police Station and we told them that we got those firearms and the car was left behind and it was easy for the police to identify us. We took a decision ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, who did you give the firearms to, that's all I'm asking, I don't want a long story.
MR MAMANI: As we were five when they left for Cape Town we left with four firearms, four sub-machine guns, leaving the pistols behind. We took these two four firearms leaving the pistols behind with the other comrade who was from ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Look, listen to me nicely, I don't want a long story. Those two pistols that were taken from the police van that were thrown over the wall and collected after you climbed over the wall, what happened to those two pistols eventually, who did you give those pistols to?
MR MAMANI: Those two firearms were left with this comrade in the Eastern Cape.
CHAIRPERSON: With Mabisi?
MR MAMANI: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Who?
MR MAMANI: His name is Ndota.
CHAIRPERSON: Ndota?
MR MAMANI: Yes, we used to call him Ndota.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is he or what was he?
MR MAMANI: Ndota was the one the very first person that we made contact with when we came to the Ciskei.
CHAIRPERSON: Look here, was he the president of Ciskei or what was he?
MR MAMANI: He was also an MK soldier.
CHAIRPERSON: Based in the Eastern Cape in Mdantsane?
MR MAMANI: He was residing in the Eastern Cape at Alice.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you never saw those two firearms again?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And the first two pistols that were taken from the police station what happened to them?
MR MAMANI: We left them with Ndota also.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told us you take those two to Cape Town to Dalasile?
MR MAMANI: The firearms that we took with to Cape Town were the sub-machine guns. The four pistols belonging to the police were never taken to Cape Town, we left them with Ndota and we went to Cape Town with the sub-machine guns.
CHAIRPERSON: What was Ndota's duties there in the Eastern Cape?
MR MAMANI: I had seen Ndota for the first time on that particular day and I did not know what his duties were in the Eastern Cape, I don't even know whether he was employed or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything more?
MR MAMANI: I am not sure but unless there is a question I am willing to answer.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, at some stage before the case is closed we would like to know exactly what the applicant is applying for.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. On page 2, paragraph - I'm sorry, Section 9.4, he has applied for amnesty for a shoot out with Ciskei Police and South African Police raid on the police station. Now on our paragraph 14 there, application for amnesty is for the possession of unlicensed firearm, attempted murder on the police at Frankfort, attempted murder on the police who were in the police van ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Where was attempted murder at the Frankfort Police Station?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Because there is a policeman which is alleged to have been shot. The one who they found on the police van and then they took him out to go and knock at the police station, then he was shot by Manobise.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he shot?
MR NOMPOZOLO: He was shot by Manobise.
CHAIRPERSON: How do we know that?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I think he said so Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He said he heard the shot outside and this is what he heard that Monabise had shot at a fleeing policeman. Do we know whether the policeman was hit or in which direction was aimed at etc? I'm asking, I'm not saying and I'm not forcing you to concede anything, I'm raising issues that come across in my mind. Have we got evidence to that effect?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Well because he said, Monamise said "I have shot at this policeman, he was running away" then when somebody who has fired a shot at another person that is an attempted murder.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he guilty?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Of common purpose, yes Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Because they left together, together with Monabise and others to go and do a raid at the police station and the eventuality of that, they must have foreseen that there could have been shooting taking place at the police station.
CHAIRPERSON: Aikona. Look at it this way. They went to the police station armed, they must have foreseen that someone can get killed or injured by being shot with those firearms.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That it is in order to facilitate the robbery or the taking of the firearms?
MR NOMPOZOLO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you argue that they also must foreseen that in the event of a policeman running away which had nothing to do with the theft, that someone could get killed? Is that part of the common purpose?
MR NOMPOZOLO: That's it, Mr Chairperson, the reason for that is as simple as this, it is not known where the policeman was running to. To raise an alarm on others and all that which ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason he was shot?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Because well, we don't know the reason why he was shot ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well that's ...(intervention)
MR NOMPOZOLO: But when Nomabise said he shot him because he was running away.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he said "I shot at him when he was running away." Are we entitled to draw the inferences then?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I imagine that the inference that can be drawn, Mr Chairperson, is that because of the running away of the policeman and Nomabise trying to stop him then that's the eventuality of the matter.
CHAIRPERSON: How does this applicant become guilty of something that he did not even know about? Never mind foreseeability, he was inside, he heard the shot?
MR NOMPOZOLO: He left the policeman guarded by others outside who were part of his group. We may withdraw that, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you'd better consult. I'm just asking the questions, I haven't made up my mind yet what to do. I'm raising issues that are likely to become issues when we discuss the matter and I'd like the benefit of your argument on that.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, actually Mr Chairperson, he himself when there was a resistance from this policeman they had a struggle and he himself managed to bring this policeman down on the ground.
CHAIRPERSON: I know that. I know that.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now it cannot be said exactly what would happen in a situation where they were but the issue is that they all of them associated themselves with their acts and with what could have been the end result.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, I can't - the Sharpeville Six case, what was the name of that case?
MR NOMPOZOLO: It was Sharpeville, it was Sefatsa.
CHAIRPERSON: Sefatsa. Have you read that case?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I did, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: It deals with common purpose. There are certain guidelines in that case that explains how this common purpose works. Now let's forget about in the past how the courts were interpreting that and how the convenient interpretations of it in the past. Let's talk about today and how it should be interpreted. Not for convenience but on a legal basis. As I remember it, in order to be guilty on a crime based on common purpose, one must actively or psychically associate therewith, it's commission. How do you say this applicant associated himself, he could not have associated himself physically because he was away from the incident. So in order to be guilty based on common purpose he must have associated himself psychically. How do you say that in this case?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Because in this case whilst they said that they don't want to shoot at this policeman but they said "please cooperate with us". Now the running away of the policeman is part of non-co-operation with them and in that non-co-operation, Nomabise then shot the policeman.
CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of everybody?
MR NOMPOZOLO: On behalf of everybody because they wanted this policeman to cooperate with all of them.
CHAIRPERSON: But that was never envisaged by the applicant was it?
MR NOMPOZOLO: But it is a consequence of what he got himself into.
CHAIRPERSON: You say he must have foreseen that?
MR NOMPOZOLO: He must have foreseen that somebody might have been killed there.
CHAIRPERSON: In those circumstances, not of robbery but purely for running away.
MR NOMPOZOLO: There's an aspect here Mr Chairperson, maybe it has not been canvassed but that aspect is that he does not know when the firearm from the policeman outside was recovered. Now there mission was to get firearms from the police station. It may be that Nomabise was busy trying to get the firearm when the policeman ran away.
CHAIRPERSON: So?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Which then makes him to be part of what Nomabise was doing.
CHAIRPERSON: But he doesn't know that?
MR NOMPOZOLO: That's what I'm saying, he has only told the Commission that "I don't know where the second firearm, how the second firearm was recovered, all I know is that it was recovered. I only recovered one firearm inside" and it does not even say at which stage was that firearm recovered.
CHAIRPERSON: So how can we draw the inference that that was related to the running away? Your own client doesn't know that?
MR NOMPOZOLO: He does know yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So how can we draw the inference and therefore bring the attempted murder under the veil of the applications?
MR NOMPOZOLO: The reason is that the attempted murder was part of the all encompassing mission they were in.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it? Shooting at a policeman running away did not facilitate the robbery, it had nothing to do with the robbery, they were busy robbing already? In fact they were close to finishing, isn't it? He himself says when he got out he discovered a shot had been discharged and they all ran away?
CHAIRPERSON: He went inside after that to continue with the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Just to collect the gun and go, that gun that was brought.
MR NOMPOZOLO: No, this running away because they even said to this policeman who was inside, "run away then" after they discovered that they could not find the key to the safe and take the firearms from the safe.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so it may have been if you want us to speculate, it may have been an intention to rob and allow the policeman to run away, not so?
CHAIRPERSON: Well we can withdraw it.
CHAIRPERSON: So see we're speculating but I'm not prepared to just dismiss the attempted murder without thinking about it and hearing what you've got to say. We may except your argument, we may reject it, I'm not too sure what's going to happen but I don't want to go and discuss it and then think I never asked about that and I never asked about this. Anyway, you say attempted murder?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Attempted murder on the police at Frankfort.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Attempted murder on the police at ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Wait let's deal with Frankfort first. What all?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Frankfort, it's possession of unlicensed firearm, it's ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: And ammunition?
MR NOMPOZOLO: And ammunition.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Robbery of firearms and ammunition.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what about M I Tupi?
MR NOMPOZOLO: M I Tupi yes, inside the police station.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Pointing of firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't that part of the robbery?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Oh, yes it is.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know maybe ...(intervention)
MR NOMPOZOLO: It is, no, it is.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is that all at Frankfort?
MR NOMPOZOLO: At Frankfort.
CHAIRPERSON: And then we talk Mdantsane?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What we're going to do there?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Mdantsane, attempted murder.
CHAIRPERSON: Two.
MR NOMPOZOLO: To the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Two counts of attempted murder?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Two counts of attempted murder yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do we know whether anybody was injured there?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I think he said that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He said he thought they looked dead, I don't know.
MR NOMPOZOLO: He said that they looked dead.
CHAIRPERSON: There's a difference between being dead and looking dead.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Well the inference is that they shot at the policemen and the policemen were injured.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do we know what the results of those investigations were?
MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately, Chairperson, we do not know became of that actual shooting. Information of court and the victims that are available here are with regard to the Frankfort shooting.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr Nompozolo, we have come across instances where policemen roll over and play dead to avoid being shot, we never know. But there must be an attempted murder because they shot at the police van, I assume expecting there could be a case but we don't know if there have been deaths and we don't know the identity of those people, do we?
MR NOMPOZOLO: No we don't. We've ...(indistinct) the application, it just said "shoot out with Ciskei Police".
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what else?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Because they shot at the van although there is no clear evidence, we have included malicious injury to property, that is on the police van.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Also the theft of firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that was robbery.
MR NOMPOZOLO: I don't think they were robbed Mr Chairperson because they, the police tried to stop them and when they were shooting at the police their aim was not to rob them, the firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: What was there then?
MR NOMPOZOLO: They were defending themselves because ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Is defence a good case for amnesty?
MR NOMPOZOLO: No, hence I'm saying theft of firearms because when they saw that the police were looking like dead they took the firearms and they had no authority to take the firearms so it amounts to theft.
CHAIRPERSON: So that attempted murder, those two attempted murders, are those crimes then if they were defending themselves? They were not defending themselves, they shot themselves.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Nomabise started to shoot at the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes so it was an attack on the police?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes so ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It's not defending?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes but they did not, they met the police by coincidence, they did not plan to go to those police.
CHAIRPERSON: What about unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition there?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, I was still coming to that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR NOMPOZOLO: That is all as far as this applicant is concerned Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, there are a few questions that I've got.
Mr Mamani, are you Mamani or Memani, your surname?
MR MAMANI: Mamani.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: M-A.
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, M-A-M-A-N-I.
When you went for the shootings, I mean for the operations in the Eastern Cape, where were you based?
MR MAMANI: We did not have a permanent place to stay. I once stayed at Forte, I once stayed at Mdantsane, it was Forte and Mdantsane but I did not have a stable place of residence because we did not want to be traced.
MR MAPOMA: I see. So you were not subjected to the command structures of the MK in any particular region as such, is that what you're saying?
MR MAMANI: That is not what I'm trying to say. We did not have a place, a permanent place to stay for security reasons because we could only trust ourselves only because we knew that it was easy for a person who was not involved in the mission to turn against us.
MR MAPOMA: Let me put my question like this, you will remember that in the country the command structures inside the country of MK, there were command structures of the MK in the Eastern Cape, in the Ciskei, I mean border area then, in the Transkei area then, Western Cape and so on. What I want to find out is which command structures were you reporting to as MK operatives then?
MR MAMANI: We would act per instruction from Chris Hani as the chief of staff, like we always tried to avoid to mix with the other structures because of financial problems so we did not want to involve ourselves in those structures, we had to be involved with our missions and complete them and go back to Cape Town and when we arrived in Cape Town we were summoned by the provisional command in Cape Town and he demanded the report and I made that report.
MR MAPOMA: Why was it the Cape Town command that demanded a report from you when the operation was in the Eastern Cape and in fact when you operated you were based in - you were coming from the Eastern Cape to operate. You did not leave from Cape Town to come and operate here. You were here and operated here and then ran to Cape Town and why was the report asked by the Western Cape command of the MK?
MR MAMANI: The comrades called me for the reasons not known to me, I don't know what was on their minds at the time, they called me and they wanted to know what had happened on the mission and I told them and all I knew was that one of them was in the command structure of the province, the Western Cape Province, at the time.
MR MAPOMA: Okay, now ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) for Frankfort?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?
CHAIRPERSON: When those firearms were taken from the police station at Frankfort, to whom was it intended that those firearms would be handed to?
MR MAMANI: The aim was that us as the unit, we were supposed to take the firearms and train the people in Cape Town and ensure the protection of the unit with these same firearms. The people who were involved in the mission at Frankfort Police Station.
CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?
MR MAMANI: I am going to repeat this, Comrade Chris Hani said to us we should defend the people, try and acquire firearms to be able to protect the people, that is what we did. We couldn't take the firearms and give them to the other structures because there were other structures that were existing already but our mission was to train and defend the people in that particular community.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, I'm asking you a simple question, you don't seem to understand it or you're not answering it properly. How did you know you must take firearms to Cape Town? You say you were supposed to hand those firearms back in Cape Town?
MR MAMANI: We were told by Comrade Chris Hani to get firearms and take them with to Cape Town.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, you were supposed to rob the Frankfort Police Station of firearms and take them to Cape Town, was that your order?
MR MAMANI: The order did not specify a place but we were told to get firearms and protect the people.
CHAIRPERSON: No but Mr Mamani, and I'm not trying to catch you out but something concerns me. When you first started to testify you told us that the Frankfort Police Station was reconnoitred and you people went to Chris Hani and told him this is the plan and he approved of it and that's what you needed and you proceeded to rob the police station of it's firearms or some of it's firearms, is that not true?
MR MAMANI: I cannot say that is not true but the judge misunderstood me, we did not first reconnoitre the place and went back to Chris Hani, we first got the instructions from Chris Hani to get firearms and defend the people and we decided that our easy targets would be the homelands, the homeland that we targeted was Ciskei as the structure what we decided upon but Chris Hani was not part of that decision, he did not tell us to go to Ciskei or go to a specific place but we sat down and planned and we talked more about our security and we had to select the places, we would ensure that our missions ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You never got a specific order with regard to Frankfort Police Station from Chris Hani?
MR MAMANI: No, we did not get a specific order but we are the people who selected the place, the reconnaissance is that we went there to that rural area as if we're going to Nomabise's place and we knew very well that we wanted to looked around this place because Nomabise told us that there was a police station in his neighbourhood.
CHAIRPERSON: Now where were you stationed in South Africa before this incident?
MR MAMANI: Before this incident?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes before the incident.
MR MAMANI: I was residing in Cape Town, Number 465, Dunn Street, New Cross-roads.
CHAIRPERSON: How long before this incident at Frankfort did you come to the Eastern Cape?
MR MAMANI: When it was hardly a week here in the Eastern Cape.
CHAIRPERSON: Now where was Chris Hani at that time?
MR MAMANI: Chris Hani was with us in Cape Town before coming to the Eastern Cape. The instruction was issued by Chris Hani while we were still in Cape Town with him. We are the people who decided upon Ciskei as our target.
CHAIRPERSON: So you left Chris Hani there in Cape Town and came to commit this robbery?
MR MAMANI: Chris issued this instruction as he was a person who was travelling around to all the provinces with other missions of the ANC and he told us about this and after that he left for other places.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about 1992?
MR MAMANI: Yes I'm talking about 1992.
CHAIRPERSON: But weren't you attached to the personal security system of Chris Hani?
MR MAMANI: As I did explain before I was working for the security of the African National Congress, the department of intelligence and security and we were also involved in body guarding. He was my principal at the time when he was issuing the instructions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Now is it your evidence that Chris Hani gave you direct instructions to this effect?
MR MAMANI: Will you please repeat the question?
MR MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that Chris Hani spoke to you directly instructing you that you must get the firearms?
MR MAMANI: Yes it was a direct instruction as he was referring to myself and the other comrades were there at the time, though the other one was also involved in something else at home therefore only the two of us were left to go on the mission, it was myself and Comrade Nomabise, we recruited the other comrades and we went to this operation.
MR MAPOMA: What rank did you occupy in the MK hierarchy at that time?
MR MAMANI: We did not have ranks in the MK like in any regular forces. We would have section commanders, company commanders up to the very last structure in the army. The rank was not important here in South Africa but in exile I was a base commander in one of the bases that we had in the exile.
MR MAPOMA: Yes. Now the intended purpose was to arm the SDUs, is that the case?
MR MAMANI: Yes it was to train, to establish them and train them and arm them so that they can protect the community because we wouldn't be responsible for defending them or protecting them but we had to train them and show that they are doing this job of protecting.
MR MAPOMA: In Cape Town?
MR MAMANI: In Cape Town, more especially the neighbouring townships because when Chris Hani was talking to us he mentioned those places because in my place of residence it was more like a stronghold of African National Congress so the apartheid regime would always attack this place in the '90s as it was also happening in the other areas.
MR MAPOMA: Mr Mamani, please, please answer the question. Just answer the question. If a question is simple, just give a simple answer, straightforward answer, please do that. Now when you left Cape Town for an operation in the Eastern Cape you were intending to come and get firearms here to arm the SDUs in Cape Town, is that not the case?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
MR MAPOMA: Now when you got the firearms from the Eastern Cape, none of those firearms were taken to Cape Town, is that not so?
MR MAMANI: Those are the firearms that I'm talking about that we had given to Comrade Dalasile, all those firearms were from the Eastern Cape.
MR MAPOMA: No, no, the firearms, all the pistols which were taken from the police were left in the Eastern Cape, you left with the machine guns and other big guns back to Cape Town. All those that you kept, you took or robbed from the police stations were left with Ndota in the Eastern Cape, is that not your evidence?
MR MAMANI: This what happened, we looked at these firearms that we had acquired and we had to say yes all of firearms were needed in Cape Town because of the large number of people we decided to take the sub-machine guns and leave Ndota with the pistols because we had a belief that at least a pistol is not a firearm that is difficult to find. The firearms that were scarce were only the sub-machine guns therefore we couldn't rely also on the pistols. We decided to leave the pistols with Ndota and take the sub-machine guns with us.
MR MAPOMA: But those sub-machine guns are the sub-machine guns which you left with from Cape Town, am I wrong? When you left Cape Town, you were not armed?
MR MAMANI: No we were not armed.
MR MAPOMA: So these, these ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't you just collect those firearms or sub-machine guns from Eastern Cape and go back to Cape Town?
MR MAMANI: It is because after getting all these firearms at that they also wanted the firearms because he wanted to establish the same structures as ours in the Eastern Cape therefore we decided to give him a start with the pistols and we told them that at least we were going to give him these pistols because they were not very scarce in his region.
MR MAPOMA: Now, okay let's leave that one. Now let's come to Frankfort. Is it your evidence that the only policeman who was shot there is the one who was outside, the one who ran away?
MR MAMANI: The policeman who was shot was the one who was outside, the one who was sleeping in the police van.
MR MAPOMA: So when you were inside is it your evidence that you did not shoot the policeman who was inside?
MR MAMANI: The policeman who was inside was not shot and no one shot at this policeman but after kicking the door open, we shot in the house that is why the firearm was on the other side and the policeman was crying with his hands up on the other side of the room.
MR MAPOMA: So are you saying this policeman just handed that firearm immediately when there was a shot fired inside?
MR MAMANI: I did not see his actions, how did he lose his firearm but I saw the firearm on the floor but I did not know how did that happen but I thought that because of the shock he threw the gun on the floor because at some stage this firearm was between his legs before this incident.
MR MAPOMA: So are you saying none of you grabbed the firearm from him?
MR MAMANI: No I do not remember anyone gripping this firearm, I remember that this 9 mm pistol was on the floor and he was on the other side crying and there was shooting outside and there was confusion.
MR MAPOMA: When you got inside what firearm were you having, you personally?
MR MAMANI: I was armed with the Uzzi sub-machine gun.
MR MAPOMA: Is there anyone who was carrying a pistol?
MR MAMANI: No, no one was having a pistol.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when you went outside after you heard those shots, did you see this person who was supposedly running away?
MR MAMANI: I saw this policeman getting out of the van and we wrestled and I saw him lying down but I did not look at his face, I just saw this person who was lying down.
CHAIRPERSON: After the shots?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And that's when you got the explanation that he was attempting to escape?
MR MAMANI: When I heard the gunshots outside, when I looked Nomabise told me that this person was running away that is why he was shooting at him because he was resisting and he was not co-operating. I did not ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Then you saw this person lying on the ground?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Mamani, the policeman who was inside the premises of the police station is here today and he has made a statement which is contained in pages 26 and 27 of the bundle of documents which have been paginated and I would like your comment here on what he says in his statement. On page 26 in line number 11 if the Committee would bear with me, line number 11, he says there, I will read for you and I would like to have your comment:
"The one who had a pistol advanced towards me and as he reached me he tried to grab my pistol and I refused and we struggled over it until we got out of the charge office."
What is your comment to this, do you agree with what he says?
MR MAMANI: The policeman who was inside the charge office, his firearm was on the floor, I disagree with this statement. When I got in I saw the firearm on the floor.
MR MAPOMA: And Mr Matiso will say if he is called to testify that he was shot three times, one on the shoulder and on the thigh and then on the stomach during that day and he was severely injured and he had to be admitted in Cecilia Makhiwane Hospital. He is the policeman who was inside whom you said was never injured. What do you say to that?
MR MAMANI: Maybe my memory is not serving me correctly but I am saying this and this is how I remember this incident. The only policeman who was injured was the one who was outside in the police van. The one who was inside was not hurt.
MR MAPOMA: And Mr Mamani, he says, I want you to be aware of this, he says on that ground he is opposing your application because he says you are not making full disclosure to this Committee, he says you are not candid to this Committee, you are not telling this Committee that you shot him three times and he had to be admitted in Cecilia Makhiwane Hospital as a result of that?
MR MAMANI: Is he saying that I am the one who shot at him, is that what he is saying?
MR MAPOMA: Your company, it may be you as well?
CHAIRPERSON: When you were inside you say, how many shots did you hear?
MR MAMANI: I cannot remember but it was more than once.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say in your evidence you heard a shot outside?
MR MAMANI: I heard a firearm, I heard a gunshot from the outside.
CHAIRPERSON: You heard a gunshot?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you remember?
MR MAMANI: It was not only one shot though I cannot say for sure about how many times.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you see I want to refer you to your statement that you sent to the TRC, it's found on page 10 and 11 of the record of the bundle where in the third paragraph you say
"Before we could even calm him we heard gunshots, about three of them."
It's about four lines from the bottom of the typed version. It's about 10 lines down on page 11. Do you remember you said so or do you dispute it?
MR MAMANI: I remember that, I'm the one who wrote that statement. I've been saying I heard the gun firing about three times, I cannot say for sure as to how many times but it was more than once. Three times or more, I'm not sure.
CHAIRPERSON: And that came from outside not inside?
MR MAMANI: It was not from the inside.
CHAIRPERSON: And it occurred when you were inside?
MR MAMANI: What I remember is that I kicked the door open, the policeman was crying and his firearm was on the floor, that is when I heard the firing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Do you admit or deny that this policeman who was inside was shot and injured by your company?
MR MAMANI: I only know the policeman who was outside was hurt, I only know about the policeman who was outside was hurt, I don't have any knowledge about the policeman who was inside. I might be making a mistake about that but I don't know. I only know about the policeman who was outside.
CHAIRPERSON: And what mistake might you be making?
MR MAMANI: If this person is saying that he was hurt and he was inside, I disagree with that, he was outside. The only person who was injured was the person who was outside. The people who went to the door were the two of us, myself and Muntsu.
MR MAPOMA: Please just get this correctly. He is not saying he was shot whilst inside necessarily, what he says is that he is the policeman who was inside when you came there. There were two policemen, one outside and one inside and he's the one who was inside and he was shot and injured in the scuffle that was going on. Whether inside or outside he was shot three times. Do you deny or admit that one?
MR NOMPOZOLO: I'm sorry, Chairperson, in all fairness to the applicant, it needs to be stated categorically where was this policeman shot because he is saying this policeman was never shot inside therefore it cannot be said that he was shot either inside or outside?
CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know if that matters much whether it was inside or outside, your client's version is that while he was busy there inside there was a policeman there and he heard this shot or shots outside and when he went there he saw this person lying down there, evidently injured or killed, so the crux of the issue here is whether the person claims to have been shot was the person that your client encountered inside the office or not or whether shot there was the person they encountered while sleeping in the police van.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my understanding is that there were shots which were fired whilst the applicant was inside and subsequent to that, the applicant and others were shooting randomly and that was inside then but now at that stage the policeman was not there. Then it will be then unfair if he is expected to admit on a speculation whether it was inside or outside because he is saying inside he was never shot at whilst he was there?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes but Mr Nompozolo, is there really an issue here? This policeman doesn't say that your client injured him, shot him? He's just simply saying that he was injured in this incident and the question is, is it possible, did your client actually deny that as a fact or is it possible, does he concede whether it's possible that this policeman was injured in this incident? Is there really such a big issue here?
MR NOMPOZOLO: No, it's no issue then, if that is the case, no it's no issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, - yes, just have your water first.
Mr Mapoma is saying that according to the policeman who was inside the charge office, he, that policeman, was also injured in this incident, he was wounded. Now the question is what is your comment on that, is it possible, are you saying it's not true or what? Well maybe we can make it easier for you, how many policemen were injured during that incident?
MR MAMANI: A policeman was injured, only one policeman injured in this incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Only one?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now which one was that as far as you're concerned?
MR MAMANI: The policeman who was sleeping in the car, that is what I think.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. When you went to investigate this shooting, this policeman that you encountered in the police station, was he still in the police station?
MR MAMANI: I am not certain about that because of the way you put it. To me it looked like there was no one inside but what is confusing me is the fact that we found the firearm inside and there was a person inside.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes now when you heard the shots outside you went to look, is that right?
MR MAMANI: I just peeped outside and I heard Nomabise talking. I went back again.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you peeped outside, the policeman you found in the police station, he was still in the police station not so? That's how I understand your evidence, he had not left the police station when you peeped out or by the time you had peeped out?
MR MAMANI: I remember seeing this policeman crying and the firearm was on the floor. Surely he was still inside.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and when you peeped you saw the other one who you thought was injured lying on the ground there. Nomabise saying he was trying to escape?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So clearly if Nomabise had shot at that person and injured him it was the person who was lying outside when you peeped outside of the police station, correct?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say there was only one policeman injured in that whole incident from the time you came to the time you left?
MR MAMANI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So it could not have been the person you encountered in the police station first, the person who was crying and whose pistol who was lying on the floor? He could not have been injured, it wasn't him that was injured in that incident?
MR MAMANI: Yes it's like that because when I peeped outside I saw a person lying down and this other policeman was still inside the charge office so it was impossible that the person inside was the one who was injured.
CHAIRPERSON: By anybody? Because you told this policeman to run away, not so?
MR MAMANI: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what that policeman will come say if he comes to testify but it's been put to you on the policeman's behalf, is that what you are telling us is not quite true because he was the person, he claims at this stage, he hasn't testified yet, he is claiming that he was the person inside you encountered, most probably crying there and his pistol was on the floor, who was injured during that incident, three times. What do you say about that? On version he must not be telling us the truth then? Or he will not come tell us the truth if he does come testify that?
MR MAMANI: I am not in a position to say a person is lying or telling the truth but what I'm sure about, the fact that I'm telling the truth.
CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr Mamani, yes, then he is not telling us the truth if he comes to tell us that. The situation can only be one way, it can't be both ways, can it? Not so?
MR MAMANI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?
JUDGE POTGIETER: Just a minute. Mr Mamani, what did you mean, you told us earlier that you might be mistaken. Now what did you mean by that? What might you be mistaken about?
MR MAMANI: If ever a policeman says that the police who sustained injuries was the one who was inside and I'm saying that the policeman who sustained injuries was outside. First of all I am here to ask for forgiveness. I do not want to find myself opposing the procedures.
CHAIRPERSON: You can come to that, I'm going to give you an opportunity to say all those things just now. What Mr Potgieter has asked you to explain is about 15 minutes ago you said well you might be mistaken about something and none of us understood what you meant by being mistaken. I did ask you the question and you didn't deal with it. What might you be mistaken about?
MR MAMANI: Perhaps I am mistaken about the policeman who was injured and the other thing that I would like to request the Commission to take note of is the fact that at the time some things were not planned, they just happened, but when you sit down and try to remember what happened, it comes as I'm relating it to the Commission right now. Maybe I'm making a mistake as to which policeman was injured between the two.
MR MAPOMA: So if I understand you well, are you saying this policeman who says he was injured, he might well have been injured during that incident, is that what you're saying?
MR MAMANI: He got injured during the raid at the police station at Frankfort, yes I agree with that.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
Now you have told the Commission that you came to the Ciskei without firearms. Do you know where the sub-machine guns were coming from?
MR MAMANI: I was told where they were from. I know. the sub-machine guns - a day after our arrival there were sub-machine guns. On my first night I spent at Fort Hare with the comrades that I came from in Exile. When I met my comrades the following day they told me that there were arms available, we'll go to the police station the following day. We got seven sub-machine guns.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you have also said that you were part of the bodyguards guarding Chris Hani. Were these bodyguards national bodyguards or were they provincial?
MR MAMANI: I was in the provincial level at the Western Cape.
MR NOMPOZOLO: So when would you meet Chris Hani, would you meet Chris Hani when he has visited your province or whenever you want to meet him?
MR MAMANI: I didn't meet him whenever I wanted to but only when he was visiting our province. I would be guarding him or if I was busy on duty guarding another leader, somebody else would guard him.
MR NOMPOZOLO: You went to Frankfort Police Station to rob or to fetch firearms. Did you know what kind of firearms you were going to get there?
MR MAMANI: No, we did not know what kind of firearms we were going to get there but one thing that we knew certainly was that there would be sub-machine guns in the police stations and pistols as well.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now there at Frankfort, after you have checked and saw that one policeman was shot at and then you got inside again, now what happened to the policeman who was inside the police station at the charge office?
MR MAMANI: When he went out of the door of the charge office, I do not know what happened, when did it happen but I was with him inside although we did not stay inside for long but when we got outside I advised him to run away, he would not be killed but he did not trust that but he insisted that he is on duty, he doesn't want to go away but I advised him to go away but there was this constant firing that was happening. He went away and we also went on foot, we ran away.
MR NOMPOZOLO: So did he leave before you inside the police station or you went out of the police station together?
MR MAMANI: As I have mentioned, I do not remember who went out first but I remember clearly telling him to run away, I told him to disappear and he did that and we were firing in the air and we also ran away.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Now when he ran away, was it dark outside or was there a light which was providing you to be able to see what was happening?
MR MAMANI: It was dark.
MR NOMPOZOLO: When you got out of the police station were there shots still fired outside? Now you got out of the charge office, now you are inside the yard but outside the charge office, were there shots still being fired by whoever?
MR MAMANI: Yes there was still constant firing. It was noisy at that time.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO
ADV SIBANYONI: Mr Mamani, what is your MK name?
MR MAMANI: I was called Chocho. C-H-O-C-H-O, Chocho Sekola, S-E-K-O-L-A.
ADV SIBANYONI: Now the instruction to acquire firearms or weapons from Chris Hani, was it directed to you or was it directed to you commanders?
MR MAMANI: Chris was talking to me personally on that day because I was accompanying him.
ADV SIBANYONI: Isn't it so that ANC had a supply of firearms from outside?
MR MAMANI: That is true, ANC had it's ammunition, armoury supply from outside.
ADV SIBANYONI: You are saying that despite that you were requested to also acquire firearms on the ground level?
MR MAMANI: Firstly, the armoury that was inside the country were being used by the units that were existent that as I have mentioned that I came back after indemnity in 1991, I didn't come back with any armoury from outside the country. Whatever supply was there it belonged to certain units.
ADV SIBANYONI: This incident happened in 1991, March 1991, was there still problems in the Eastern Cape more specially around Frankfort?
MR MAMANI: What problems are you referring to sir?
ADV SIBANYONI: Problems which necessitated you people to acquire firearms.
MR MAMANI: Yes.
ADV SIBANYONI: What were those problems?
MR MAMANI: These problems were not only pertaining in the Western Cape or in the Eastern Cape where we got the weapons, they were country wide. Raids that were State financed, that were perhaps emerging from Pretoria that were perpetrated by third force elements forced the need to ensure the protection of the communities or else to make sure that those attacks do not happen again and we were the only ones, the soldiers of uMkhonto weSizwe who could or rather who were told to play the role of defending the communities against the raids.
ADV SIBANYONI: Now were there formal structures of SDUs at Mdantsane where you were staying?
MR MAMANI: I never met any SDUs in Mdantsane but where we were staying at the Section 7 the people that we met there knew that we were armed but they did not know as to what purpose but they knew that we ANC members and they were ANC members as well but we never supplied them with any details.
ADV SIBANYONI: By the way, who did you give the firearms to in Cape Town, what's the name of the person again?
MR MAMANI: It's Comrade Dalasile.
ADV SIBANYONI: Did he participate in any formal structure of SDU?
MR MAMANI: Yes he was a guerrilla that was trained inside the country and he also had close connection with the SDUs and thus we used him as the one who would keep the weapons.
ADV SIBANYONI: The policeman who was inside the police station at the charge office, was it possible he was injured after you had instructed him to run away?
MR MAMANI: I do not think that that is possible because I guaranteed that he can run away, he won't get hurt, seeing that the safe can't be opened he can just run away.
ADV SIBANYONI: As you were running away, you were firing in the air. How many of you were firing?
MR MAMANI: I cannot be sure about that but I shot as well in the air in the direction of the gate, running towards the gate but I believe that all of us were shooting at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: In which direction?
MR MAMANI: We were running towards the gate and shooting in the air.
CHAIRPERSON: All of you shooting in the air?
MR MAMANI: The firearm that was in my possession was facing upward and I was shooting in the air and I saw my companions doing the same, there was no target in front of us but it was just a gate that we were running towards. We were shooting to show that we had won the battle, we found at least what we had come there for, our mission was accomplished which was coming to take the firearms of which we got.
ADV SIBANYONI: All your companions were just around you and you were aware that none of them was busy shooting the policeman who was inside the charge office when you were retreating?
MR MAMANI: That I did not notice.
ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, I just want to ask one question, that statement that you made on page 10 and 11 of the record, the typed version is on page 8 and 9. Is it true that you wrote this statement on the 16th October 1999? On page 10 and 11 or 12?
MR MAMANI: Yes I wrote it then.
CHAIRPERSON: And the contents of that statement is what you believe to be the true version?
MR MAMANI: Yes I do, it was the absolute truth.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that's all. Are there any other witnesses that he'd like to call on his behalf?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no other witnesses, Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I may need the direction of the Committee on this. I thought I would call Mr - just bear with me Chairperson? I thought I would call Mr Zamile Matiso who was injured but in the light of it not being an issue as to whether he was injured or not, none of the applicants seems to concede that he may have been injured. I do not think it would be necessary for me call unless the Committee may require his evidence?
CHAIRPERSON: Well let us take the lunch break and I want to think about that, I don't want to mislead you or whatever. Let me think about that.
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I'll tell you during the course of lunch break.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, your enquiry for which you sought guidance, was that intended to find out whether we are willing to grant one of the policemen victim status?
MR MAPOMA: Well not necessarily Chairperson, I just thought that it's almost common cause that he was injured. I thought that perhaps the Committee may want his version perhaps.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, that I must leave in your hands whether you want to put that version.
MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: If it is to - if it was for the purpose of whether you wanted to know if we're going to declare him a victim, in that case yes we would consider him a victim.
MR MAPOMA: Yes that was mainly, that was my feeling as well, Chairperson, that he ought to be considered as a victim and then on the merits which is my view, Chairperson, that his version will not take the matter any further. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses?
MR MAPOMA: I have no other witness Chairperson, I'm not calling him then.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any submissions to make?
MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with Mr Nompozolo that in Frankfort issue, that the offences involved there would be attempted murder, possession of, unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, robbery of two firearms and ammunition, malicious injury to property and pointing a firearm?
MR MAPOMA: I agree Chairperson with those offences except for the offence of attempted murder. He seems to qualify it to a specific policeman. I would say it must be an attempted murder to whoever might have been injured there or might have been shot at there being a policeman, not necessarily the policeman whom this guy positively says was shot at in the light of ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how many policemen were injured?
MR MAPOMA: From our investigation there is one policeman who was injured, in fact it was the policeman Mr Matiso who was inside and the one who was outside was - he escaped unhurt.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And in the Mdantsane incident, two counts of attempted murder, theft of two firearms and ammunition, malicious injury to property and unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.
MR MAPOMA: Yes I agree with that, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, we don't want to hear any argument. We will reserve judgment on this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: What's your next matter?
MR MAPOMA: My next matter is Xolisa Mkonwana
MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may he be excused then?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
