Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, today being the 14th of April 1998 we proceed with the amnesty applications of

Kupani Diamoneng, amnesty application 3828/96

Vuyasile Brian Madasi, amnesty application 6077/97

There was a third applicant:

Themingkosi Diesel Sijone, amnesty application 5933/97

I understand from his attorney, Mr Mbandazayo that he has withdrawn his application and I also understand that Mr Ntintili had also applied for the Yellowwoods Hotel matter under amnesty application 6539. That application forming part of the bundle in the King William's Town attack. I understand from Mr Mbandazayo his attorney, that Mr Ntintili is not present today, he's ill and has a doctor's certificate to that effect.

May I indicate to the Committee that Mr Madasi is represented by Mr Mbandazayo and the indication is that he will lead the evidence or lead the application. Mr Mthembu is acting for Mr Diamoneng.

I, Advocate P C Prior is the evidence leader and I will representing the interests of Mrs Jerling: J-E-R-L-I-N-G, who is the victim. Her son was killed in this attack. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee is unchanged with myself, Judge Wilson as Chairman and the Members are Mrs Gcabashe, Mr Lax and Mr Sandi.

Mr Prior, can you give us any explanation as to why we starting this hearing after one rather than at 9H30 as arranged?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there was some difficulty this morning with Mr Mbandazayo's client, Mr Madasi. He was brought substantially late in the morning. The prison authorities had brought another applicant, Mr Siyoni in his place.

I don't know what led to that confusion, however he was brought, I think, towards 11 in the morning and then Mr Mbandazayo indicated that Mr Madasi had not yet signed his affidavit which had been recently taken, on the Sunday and the affidavit had to be transcribed and attested to by him. So unfortunately Mr Chairman, those are the reasons I can advance for the later start in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was this only done on Sunday?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we are not in control in the bringing of prisoners to East London. We have been communicating with the prison authorities and for instance Mr Madasi is coming from Cape Town and they have been brought very late. For instance, there is another applicant Mr Chairman who was also brought yesterday evening. I have not even consulted with him and he's also going to - I still have to go and consult with him.

We have those problems Mr Chairman, that these applicants were not brought to East London prison timeously for us to be able to consult with them. The other one I'm referring to is from Umtata. I even went to Umtata Mr Chairman, and I was told he has been transferred to East London, came back and when I arrived in East London they told me: "That's not true, he's still in Umtata".

He only arrived yesterday evening. So we have those problems regarding those who are in custody Mr Chairman. Those who are not East London are transferred late to East London prison to enable us to consult with them. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I was told, and I can't vouch for it in any way of course, that Mr Madasi had been here since the 6th.

MR PRIOR: I understand from the prison authorities, the leader of the Correctional Services, that he was here on the 6th in East London. I don't know at which facility he was held but the officer in charge of the detachment is present Mr Chairman, if you need any clarification from him.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust that if there has been a lack of communication and attorneys have not been informed, arrangements will made that they informed as soon as possible. On the other hand I equally well assume that attorneys will enquire of the prison authorities and make sure that they do get informed as soon as possible. I think be can now continue with this hearing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling the first applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I just wanted to confirm that I was appearing for Mr Madasi, Mr Siyoni who has since withdrawn his application, Mr Ntintili who has been booked off by the doctor. If you remember he testified last week but he did not complete the hearing last week because he was ill, he fell ill last week. I've been told that he will be available after the 15th to give evidence. Thank you Mr Chairman. The applicant may be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Madasi Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you confirm that Mr Siyoni has withdrawn his application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I confirm that Mr Siyoni has withdrawn his application for amnesty in this matter, thank you Mr Chairman.

VUYASILE BRIAN MADASI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Madasi, do you confirm that the affidavit which before the Committee was made by you and you adhere to the contents thereof?

MR MADASI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll go to specific paragraphs of the affidavit and I would request the applicant to explain certain things to the Committee. Mr Chairman, I would request the Committee to turn to paragraph 6 of the affidavit.

"Comrade Xomiso told me to go to Fort Beaufort and advised me that I would be met by Comrade Zuko at King William's Town, who will provide accommodation for me. He advised me that the target had already been identified and it is Yellowwoods Hotel in Fort Beaufort. He told me that comrade Diesel will give me further information regarding the target as he is from the area. As far as I know no other person knew about the target except myself, comrade Xomiso and Diesel. Comrade Xomiso told me that the place must be attacked on Friday or Saturday night"

Now Mr Madasi, are you in a position to explain to the Committee whether Xomiso told you the reason why the Yellowwoods Hotel has to be attacked and why was it going to be attacked on Friday or Saturday night?

MR MADASI: In answering your question Sir, he said that they Yellowwood Hotel was frequently visited by security members, security force members. He said that they would go there every Friday and Saturday. He then stipulated that we must go and attack the place on Friday or Saturday. I am not sure if I've answered you clearly.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, you've answered me. Now, at paragraph 7

"As ...[indistinct] arrived in Fort Beaufort, I was accommodated at Mxelo administrative area in Alice. I was later joined by comrade Nxeba and comrade Mlungisi. Comrade Nxeba was to be driver of the unit and comrade Mlungisi was to be my deputy"

Mr Chairman, correction:

"my deputy" "Comrade was to be our link with comrade Xomiso and will provide us whichever we want"

Now you talk about comrade Nxeba and comrade Mlungisi, can you tell us who are these people or are there any other names which they are known by?

MR MADASI: First of all, we used code names. I only know those comrades according to those code names. I Nxeba is Nxeba and Mlungisi is Mlungisi and that is it. It is only today that I discover that he is Xobane, otherwise we know each other through our code names.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you have discovered what his name is. Who is this that is Xobane?

MR MADASI: It is the African Mlungisi that I'll be appearing with.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Comrade, Chairperson, is Kupani Diamoneng, applicant AM3828/96, that's Mlungisi.

ADV SANDI: And who is this comrade Zuko you're going to meet at King William's Town?

MR MADASI: Sky, I know him as Sky.

MR LAX: Sorry, and Nxeba, who is he?

MR MADASI: I just Nxeba as Nxeba.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know these comrades by any other code names, that is Nxeba and Mlungisi?

MR MADASI: I just know Mlungisi as Mlungisi. I don't know Nxeba very well, I just know him as Nxeba as well.

MS GCABASHE: Now if I could just ask in that case, do you now what Siyoni's code name was? Was it just Diesel or did he have some other name that you knew?

MR MADASI: I knew him as Diesel.

MS GCABASHE: Did you know that as his code name?

MR MADASI: Yes, because when I met him he was referred to as Diesel.

MS GCABASHE: Then Ntintili, did you know his code name or what did you call him?

MR MADASI: I just knew him as comrade Ntintili.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, can you explain to the Committee paragraph 7, the last sentence

"Comrade Diesel was to be our link with comrade Xomiso and would provide us whichever we want"

What does that mean?

MR MADASI: We were trying to protect the lines of communication because he was meant to be our conductor. I reported to Diesel if we needed anything within the unit. Diesel coordinated everything.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 9 Mr Chairman

"After I had completed the reconnaissance of the place, comrade Ntintili came with the arms. The arms are as described in paragraph 9"

Can you tell the Committee who requested the arms that they be brought? Did you request the arms that they be brought or Mr Ntintili just came with the arms?

MR MADASI: I got there and stayed there with comrade Sky. It is from Sky that we got the arms and accommodation. However, as the commander of the unit I received the arms from comrade Ntintili.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 10 Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: I'm sorry, I seem to be a bit confused about this arms story, about whether it's Sky or Ntintili who arranged the arms. I understand it to be Ntintili even from the affidavit, where does Sky come in? I understand the accommodation part, the arms part?

MR MADASI: Your question is not clear.

MS GCABASHE: You see I have made a note here, your initial response was something along the lines that you got there and stayed with Sky so I understand your accommodation was provided by Sky, that's correct. But you also said: "From Sky we got arms and accommodation", now it's the arms part I don't quite understand.

MR MADASI: My answer to this question, where the accommodation is concerned and the arms, as Sky was from that area he is the one who knew who to contact in - it is Ntintili who brought the arms to me directly. I hope I have answered you well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Paragraph 10 Mr Chairman

"When I was about to decide on the wake of the attack at Yellowwoods, I was informed that comrade Ntintili has been arrested and we retreat from that area. We were accommodated at Mdantsane at comrade Law's place who was a relative of comrade Nxeba"

Can you explain to the Committee what happened and how did you retreat to Mdantsane?

MR MADASI: After the comrade came with the arms, comrade Nxeba and Mlungisi went to the phone. When they got there they heard that comrade Ntintili was arrested and we then had to withdraw.

It was clear that Nxeba knew people around the Eastern Cape. I think he was going to meet one of his relatives. We then had to use that day that he was meant to meet his relative, they were meant to meet at Alice. We then moved to Alice, we then met with comrade Law, Nxeba's relative. That is how we ended up in Mdantsane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was comrade Law doing in Alice?

MR MADASI: First of all, comrade Law was a student at Fort Hare.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 11

"As we were determined to hit the target we decided that on a Friday we must meet at Fort Hare at comrade Law's room as he was a student there. We met at comrade Law's room, it was myself, Mlungisi, Nxeba, Diesel and Sky"

Can you tell the Committee how did you arrange that you meet at Law's room at Fort Hare?

MR MADASI: As a unit commander I organised that the comrades meet. We then found out as we met that comrade Law had at room at Fort Hare. After having spoken to Nxeba we decided to meet there. Mlungisi, Nxeba and myself stayed in Mdantsane. Comrade Diesel and comrade Sky are from around here. We made a way that we meet. We met at Fort Hare.

INTERPRETER: The applicant is listening to channel 2 and he keeps waiting for the interpretation. If he could list to channel 3 please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Then when you met at Fort Hare, what did you decide to do?

MR MADASI: We discussed certain matters and we decided to carry out the operation. Comrade Mlungisi and comrade Nxeba and Sky had to go get a car, I was then left behind with comrade Diesel. We were left behind with the arms just outside Fort Hare. They noted where we were sitting so that when they came back with the kombi they could pick us up, it was a Nissan.

We got into the kombi and on the way there to the hotel the police came after, chasing us. We then abandoned the vehicle. We collected our stuff from the kombi but some of our stuff was left behind. We went back to Fort Hare, we left our arms there.

The next morning the three of us went to Mdantsane, the other two comrades went back to their own area. That is how it happened.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I will proceed to paragraph 14

"Because our mission aborted we decided that we must take a car in Mdantsane and use it on the attack. On the following Friday we took a red Langley"

Langley Mr Chairman, not Landley, it's a "g".

"red Langley from a certain person in one of the Mdantsane units and we drove to Fort Hare where we took arms and proceeded to Fort Beaufort but when we arrived the hotel was closed and we came back and dropped the arms at Nxlelo location in Alice. We were a unit of three this time, it was myself armed with R5, Mlungisi armed with R4 and Nxeba with Uzzi. We decided that we will carry the attack on the following day on Saturday. We dumped the Langley near Alice"

Can you tell the Committee how did you get the Langley?

MR MADASI: After we got to Mdantsane the next morning we took the Langley. I can't remember which unit in Mdantsane. An elderly man was driving it. We talked to him, he didn't give us any trouble. We tried to communicate the conditions to him, we took his car. After that we went to Fort Hare for our arms, it was Mlungisi, Nxeba and I. We got to the hotel after that, the hotel was closed.

We went back to Nxlelo, dropped the car. The next morning, the Saturday we went to Alice where we were going to get a car to go back to the target place. We got this car from a couple, we dropped them off between Fort Beaufort and Alice, they didn't give us any trouble either. We took our arms and we went to the hotel, it was open. I hope I've answered you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed and tell the Committee what happened.

MR MADASI: We went inside the hotel. We drove in, parked the car and after that I ordered comrade Nxeba to go to the back door so that as we were going to shoot by the bar there might be people who would want to escape from the back door and he then would deal with those people.

Mlungisi had an R4, a pistol to use as a withdrawal sign. The comrades prepared well. After about three minutes the comrade used the pistol as a withdrawal sign and we left. We didn't have problems on our way back. We left the car just before King William's Town because we had a problem with a punctured tyre. We then went to a place that Nxeba would know better, dropped off the arms.

The next morning we took different transport, we went to Mdantsane, we took our clothing and went back to the Transkei individually. I gave feedback to comrade Leklapa and Mjala. I hope that I've answered you well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You've told the Committee that you were told about the target by comrade Xomiso and now can you tell the Committee what was your position regarding the attack at the Yellowwoods yourself? What was your attitude regarding the attack at Yellowwoods, putting aside the order that was given by comrade Xomiso as you indicated?

MR MADASI: As an APLA combatant I always asked myself why I was not sent to an operation area. It was good and noble to fight for our country, I was eager to join the struggle. I was given an order and mine was to obey and make sure that the order is carried out. I was proud of what I was doing, I was a soldier and a politician.

Everybody knows that the white man was the oppressor in this country. A lot of Africans lost their lives through the white man. I hope you do not perceive this as being racist, I am racist, the PAC is not racist. However the oppressors in this country were white. I was proud to take part in the struggle to fight oppression.

Oppression doesn't just come naturally, it is people who choose to oppress. I was proud to receive orders and I was proud to carry them out. I endeavoured to make sure that orders are carried out.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair, just one question.

Mr Madasi, in paragraph 10 you say you were accommodated at Mdantsane at comrade Law's place, was Mlungisi or Diamoneng together with you at Mdantsane or not?

MR MADASI: There were just three of us there, myself, Mlungisi and Nxeba.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Madasi, you said you were the commander of this particular operation, when did you arrive in the area to engage or to ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: I can't really be sure, it's been a while. It was 1993 though but I wouldn't know which month or day it was.

MR PRIOR: Well we know that when Mr Jerling was killed in the bar at the Yellowwoods Hotel, that was on the, I think the 20th of March 1993, you had come to the area a little while before that had you not? Can you maybe tell us or tell the Committee, was it a month before the operation or was it a week before, what is your recollection?

MR MADASI: I'm not sure. I don't want to say a month or guess, it wasn't too long a time but it was at the beginning of 1993. I can't remember the date.

MR PRIOR: Did you or were you together with the group that took a taxi, I think it was a kombi type vehicle, it was a Mazda Marathon? I'm referring to page 31 and particularly page 33: Mr Tandisili Vena's vehicle from the Fort Beaufort taxi rank, do you remember that?

MR MADASI: It was a taxi rank in Alice I think because we were in Alice not Fort Beaufort.

MR PRIOR: Do you remember that Mazda Marathon, it's a kombi type vehicle?

MR MADASI: Yes, I do remember it.

MR PRIOR: I'm referring to page 31 of the papers, of the bundle. Mr Vena made a statement reporting the theft or robbery of the vehicle and he says that was on a Friday the 12th of March 1992, that obviously is incorrect, it was '93. It appears to be a week before the actual attack on the hotel, would that coincide with your recollection?

MR MADASI: I don't follow you, I'm a bit confused.

MR PRIOR: Look Mr Madasi please, don't get confused, the question is very simple. A week before on the 12th of March 1993, were you involved in the theft of a Mazda Marathon? You actually said it was the Alice taxi rank and not the Fort Beaufort taxi rank. Were you involved in the removal of that vehicle from the owner, that's the question?

MR MADASI: I said that comrade Nxeba, comrade Mlungisi, Sky, they were the ones who went and got the car, Diesel and I were waiting for them. I've already said this.

MR PRIOR: Did you at some stage enter into that vehicle?

MR LAX: Sorry the questions was, did you enter into that vehicle?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR LAX: Just for the interpreter's sake, nothing to do with Ntintili.

MR PRIOR: Did you at any stage on that evening when the vehicle was removed from the owner's possession, did you enter or board that vehicle?

MR MADASI: This is the car that we were meant to use to the operation. The comrades brought the car and I got into the car. I did get into the car.

MR PRIOR: Where was the owner of the vehicle at that stage, when you entered the vehicle?

MR MADASI: I was not there when the car was taken from the owner, it is the other comrades who brought the car to us, to Diesel and I.

MR PRIOR: Did you instruct your comrades to go and fetch that vehicle or to fetch a vehicle to be used in the operation on that evening?

MR MADASI: Yes, I did so.

MR PRIOR: Were your instructions that the vehicle had to be removed from the owner by force?

MR MADASI: It was a war, a battle. We expected contribution from the other Africans as they were also oppressed, they know they were oppressed. You talk to the person, you tell them the reasons why you need their car. I know that they never injured the man. It showed that they did well to contribute into the struggle.

MR PRIOR: Did you instruct them to use force to obtain the vehicle, yes or no? That would suffice.

MR MADASI: I instructed them to go and get the car, I did not stipulate whether they should take it by force or talk to the people.

MR PRIOR: What was your instruction as the commander of the unit that was going to attack Yellowwood Hotel? Did you say: "If the owner of the vehicle resist, you must use force", or did you not tell them that? Or did you tell them: "First try and persuade him to relinquish the vehicle of his own"? What did you say to them? Or did you say absolutely nothing to them, was it left to their discretion?

MR MADASI: Sir, years have elapsed since the incident and I'm in jail, that affects me psychologically. I told the comrades to get a car that we'd use in the operation, I did not stipulate and say: "Take it by force or talk to the people". I just said to them that we need a car to carry out the operation, that's the order I gave. I hope I've answered you.

MR PRIOR: Now, how long before that incident with the Mazda Marathon motor vehicle of Mr Vena, had you gone to the hotel to reconnoitre the area?

MR MADASI: You've asked two questions, please ask me one question at a time.

MR PRIOR: How long before the incident that you've now just answered about the motor vehicle - we know that happened on the 12th of March, how long before that did you go and look at the hotel where you were going to launch an attack on - as you say, security policemen who attended there?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question?

MR PRIOR: How long before the 12th of March, the date which we know from the statement of Mr Vena, you took the Mazda Marathon, that was the kombi type vehicle, how long before that date, was it a week, two weeks, a month, that you went to look at the hotel where you were going to launch an attack? Do you understand the question?

MR MADASI: Are you saying that - are you asking whether it was a week before we went there or what?

MR PRIOR: I'm asking you, can you give us an estimation of how long before the vehicle incident, that's the theft of the first vehicle, that you had gone to the Yellowwoods Hotel?

MR MADASI: Mr Prior, a lot of time has elapsed, I can't give you dates and months. I'm going to have problems with giving you specific times, I would not be telling the truth if I said so. I'm not sure how much time had elapsed, I can't speculate.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, you've answered the question. When you went to the hotel, was that during the day? That was now to go and reconnoitre, to see where your target is or what the target is, was that during the daytime?

MR MADASI: It was during the day. I went with comrade Nxeba and then he went for the second time inside the hotel but it was during the day when we both went there.

MR PRIOR: And your mission was sanctioned by the Director of Operations, is that right, that was Leklapa Mpashlele?

MR MADASI: We were given direct orders by comrade Xomiso, he then informed us that he got the orders from comrade Mpashlela. He said that these orders came from the Director of Operations.

MR PRIOR: When did that take place, can you maybe cast your mind back and give us an idea when those instructions were received?

MR MADASI: At the beginning of 1993.

MR PRIOR: And where you, were you in Umtata, Butterworth, where were you? What part of the country were you when you got these orders?

MR MADASI: In Umtata.

MR PRIOR: And comrade Xomiso, where is he today? Is he still alive?

MR MADASI: Apparently he passed away.

MR PRIOR: Do you know when he passed away?

MR MADASI: In 1997, I'm not sure of the particular dates.

MR PRIOR: Were you part of any regiment or detachment - we heard during this session that there was a thing known as the Lembede Regiment and the Xude Regiment, were you part of any detachment or regiment of APLA?

MR MADASI: No.

MR PRIOR: Were you just a squad that was sent into an area to do an operation and once you'd done that operation you had to get out as quickly as possible?

MR MADASI: It was a special operation done by special units. I was a commander of that specific unit at that time, I was elected as a commander. I don't know whether you are clear.

MR PRIOR: Was that your first operation that you led that you were the commander of?

MR MADASI: Correct.

MR PRIOR: And before that, before March 1993, had you been involved in any other operation?

MR MADASI: No.

MR PRIOR: So would you agree that you had very, very, - well, you had no experience in leading operations at all?

MR MADASI: I don't agree with you Sir for specific reasons. We have military classes, political classes. Before a comrade is sent to an operation you first were educated accordingly. You go and put into practise something that you have learnt already. I had theoretical experience.

MR PRIOR: Yes, thank you. And Mr Kupani Diamoneng, had he been involved in any other operation to you knowledge, before the Yellowwoods matter?

MR MADASI: I don't know because it was the first time I worked with him in that particular operation, I don't know of any prior operations.

MR PRIOR: Would it be correct to say that, or to understand from you that all the people involved in this operation on Yellowwoods Hotel never discussed their past experiences or past operations with each other? I that correct? Or did you discuss with each other operations that you'd been on or the training that you'd received, anything like that?

MR MADASI: First of all, we were a guerilla army, it's not important to discuss or tell my comrade about operations I was involved in and visa versa. What would be important then would be the operation at hand. We never discussed anybody's experiences, it would create problems. We just had to focus on what we had to do. We would end up looking down at each other perhaps if we looked at each other's experience.

MR PRIOR: Yes. So from that you didn't know - let me rephrase it, you were expecting, well the target you were informed about was the hotel where you were informed military personnel were in attendance or frequented, is that correct?

MR MADASI: Pleas repeat the question Sir.

MR PRIOR: Your target was the hotel where you say military personnel - that was your information, that used to attend - in other words, members of the security forces attended that hotel and that was your target? The personnel, the military personnel or security forces that attending there or frequented that place, those people were your target, is that right?

MR MADASI: The people that chose the target are members of the high command of APLA. We were voluntary soldiers, we had to make sure that we carry out the operation, that was on our shoulders. We would go to a target place that had already been selected by the APLA High Command.

MR PRIOR: I must ask you this question because this really springs to mind, if we look at the Heidelberg matter - I know those facts aren't strictly relevant here, but in that matter your evidence was or the evidence was that the targets were left to the commanders on the ground to decide. Do you remember that evidence been given during the Heidelberg matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Prior is not correct when he put it that way, I was in the Heidelberg Tavern. No, he will be misleading the applicant if he puts that it was left. If my memory serves me well Mr Chairman, Luyanda Gqomfa made it that he was the only one who knew about the target from when he left from Umtata. The others were told during the attack, so it was selected even before they left Umtata.

MR PRIOR: I simply want to draw - if there is a distinction, I want to draw that distinction. My recollection - and Mr Chairman, you can correct me. In the Heidelberg matter APLA said that the policy at that stage, they would leave the identification of the targets up to the local commanders.

I simply want to ask this witness if he remembers that being said and if he does remember why does there seem to be a difference between yellowwoods hotel and the policy adopted later?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I still have a problem with that. If the Committee has a problem, I don't have a problem, I can fetch the affidavit of Luyanda Gqomfa. That is not true what is being said by Mr Prior. He still in the affidavit of Luyanda Gqomfa, that was not the position. If he is talking about APLA then I would understand maybe the submissions of APLA but if he's talking about the Heidelberg incident during the amnesty hearing, it was clear that he was given an order in Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Alright, I'll leave that Mr Chairman.

Thank you, I won't pursue it.

Now on this reconnaissance that you went on, what did you do at the hotel? What did you do, did you go into the hotel, did you walk around it, what did you do?

MR MADASI: The question of reconnaissance, as I knew that Nxeba knew the Eastern Cape well, we went to the hotel with Nxeba during the day, Nxeba and I. We went to look at the distance especially and entrances, how many entrances there were into the hotel, the different roots and their disadvantages, these are the things that we looked at. We did not go inside the hotel.

MR PRIOR: On the basis of that reconnaissance you decided that the target could be attacked, is that right?

MR MADASI: We concluded that we should go again and enter the hotel to find out how it is inside.

MR PRIOR: When did you do that?

MR MADASI: The second reconnaissance. I'm not sure but Nxeba is the one who went inside the hotel, he went on his own.

ADV PRIOR: Where were you?

MR MADASI: We were staying in Mdantsane, I was in Mdantsane.

MR PRIOR: Did he report back to you, Nxeba, about the second reconnaissance?

MR MADASI: Yes, he did.

MR PRIOR: Tell me Mr Madasi, do you accept that apart from your information that members of the security forces attended that hotel, was it also your information that civilian people unconnected to the security forces also attended the hotel or patronised the hotel? ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, he hasn't said his information was that. He said his order was that and that's why he understood the order to have been given. So please, let's just be careful here otherwise we put words in his mouth.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Was it your instruction or your order - sorry, maybe you give an instruction in that way, what did you understand from your orders as to who were the patrons of that hotel, who were the people that frequented that hotel?

MR MADASI: I don't understand your question well, if you can clarify. What are you trying to ask me?

MR PRIOR: Well I'm trying to ask you if you are able to tell us, did you believe that there were only security forces at that hotel or did you also understand that private people or citizens unarmed, unconnected with the security forces, could also possibly be at that hotel?

MR MADASI: That place was outside the town so to speak, members of the security frequented the place that is why it was the target, that was the order. As the commander of the unit you just had to plan how to go about attacking the place. We went there with the knowledge that that was the place where security members went frequently. I hope I've answered you.

MR PRIOR: So it wouldn't have made ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, I'm still not very clear on this.

Were you able to verify that this place was frequented by military people? We you able to verify that?

MR MADASI: It is a report that we received from comrade Nxeba, that as he went inside the hotel he discovered that the men that were inside there were carrying guns, most of them were carrying guns. He did not specify and say what kind of guns but he said that most people that were there had weapons.

MS GCABASHE: Then the second leg to the same aspect is, did he say anything about ordinary civilians who may or may not be in the hotel?

MR MADASI: He did say that there were people there, he did not say whether they were civilians or not.

MS GCABASHE: And the last aspect on the same issue is then people who worked there. I know Mr Prior didn't talk about them specifically, what was your information on those people?

MR MADASI: We did not receive any information on those, we were just focusing on people that frequented the hotel.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: But surely you must have also, as the commander of that unit, that operation, you must have also appreciated surely that also would have been civilian people unconnected to the security forces that might also be there, did you appreciate that?

MR MADASI: It was a battle against the oppressors, they oppressed us socially, through the military and economically. The question about civilians is difficult because according to APLA there was no distinction between civilians and the others because an oppressor was an oppressor according to APLA.

MR PRIOR: And he was an oppressor if he had a white skin, is that right?

MR MADASI: Sobukwe puts it this way: "Don't hate white people simply because they are white". It is like you would beat me up with a sjambock, I can't say I hate the sjambock, I would rather say I hate you. So that you stop using the sjambock I have to hit you or hit on you rather than the sjambock. I hope you understand.

MR PRIOR: When you went to the hotel on that occasion when you fired shots, what steps did you take to make sure that you were hitting the right target, in other words that the people there were in fact members of the security forces. What steps did you take if any?

MR MADASI: First of all, we were there to kill and destroy ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Who were there to kill?

MR MADASI: We are there to kill and destroy the people that we would find there at that particular time. You could not differentiate amongst the people that were there because you would also get injured. We went to attack the people who were there at the time. We did not assess the damage.

MR PRIOR: And what steps if any or precautions did you take to avoid injuring the staff, that is the non-white - if I can put it that way, members, the black members of staff at that hotel who were present on that evening? Did you consider their safety at all?

MR MADASI: As I've already said, I did not know the people that worked there or what race they were. We were not there to protect some and attack others. The APLA battle was not specifically against white or black, it was against the oppressor.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you class the servants working in the kitchen there as oppressors?

MR MADASI: As I've already said people - I had no information on the people that worked there, whether they were black or white. We went to attack black or white. We were going to attack the black people if they were there as well.

MS GCABASHE: So you were really focused on the target, not on whether there were black or white people in the premises, is this what you're saying?

MR MADASI: Correct.

MR PRIOR: I want to put to you ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Also - if I'm hearing you correctly, in essence you are saying: "We had our orders, our orders were to attack that place" and you are saying in essence it didn't matter who was there, you went there to attack that place, just to carry out your orders? Is that right?

MR MADASI: That was selected because security members frequented the place. Even the person who went to do the reconnaissance came back with the same report. He did not identify the people that were there as civilians. We just knew that security members frequented the place. I would not know whether there were civilians there but I was given an order in a specific manner.

MR LAX: And you went there to carry out that order, that's what I asked you in the first place.

MR MADASI: Correct, however to confirm the information that I received, the comrades that went inside to find out who was there came back with the same report that most of the people inside the hotel had weapons. Therefore to me and to the unit there was no difference amongst the people.

MR LAX: If you had found that that place in fact had a whole lot of old grannies there that were not armed or anything, would you have carried on with the mission?

MR MADASI: The order did not say anything about old people. We did not choose the target place.

MR LAX: That's what I'm asking you, I'm trying to understand what would you have done if you had found that the place was full of old grannies? Would you have reported back to your commanders and said: "Hang on we think you're making a mistake, this is not a security force place" or would you have simply carried out your orders? Did you have the space to question your orders, that's what we're trying to understand, so please don't get all - try and understand what I'm asking you.

MR MADASI: First of all Sir, the Secretary for Defence in 1993 for AZANIA's people for liberation declared 1993 as: "The Year of the Great Storm". If there were old people there or there were grannies there they would give specific reasons why the place must be attacked. We left our parents to fight for this country, we chose to, we volunteered to be members of APLA.

I need for you to have that clear in your mind. We were not chased away from home, we left our homes voluntarily. As members of APLA you do find that you are where you always wanted to be, to fight against the oppressor.

MR LAX: You haven't answered my question.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem to be avoiding the question. As I understood the question it was: "You were sent to this place because you were told it was frequented by the security police". If however you had found that there were no security policemen there but merely a lot of old women, would you have felt you could question your orders and say: "You must have got the wrong place"?

MR MADASI: Where would we be getting that? Would we discover ourselves that the place is full of grannies or would it be an order from above that we must ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You would discover yourselves when you went to check on it, Nxeba could come back and report to you that he didn't see a single security person there he just saw old grannies.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, can I just for clarity assist here in explaining to him what is wanted by the Committee, just in his mother tongue as maybe he's having problems with that.

The question is, for a moment forget that there were security men there as your order said. Say you go there and you get there and there are grannies, old people only, now the question is, would you continue and attack the place?

MR MADASI: Yes, we would Sir.

...[end of tape]

MR LAX: ...[inaudible] answered my question.

ADV SANDI: Mr Madasi, just a follow-up to your answer here, is that to say that in those circumstances you wouldn't have felt any obligation to go back to those who had given you this information and orders, to go back to these people and say that: "The information you gave us about this place is wrong, it's incorrect", you would not even have done that?

MR MADASI: Advocate Sandi, your question is clear. I wouldn't be able to do that, I had to carry out the order, not because I was forced to do so or because I could not ask any question but as I said, after I received the training I kept on asking myself: "when am I going to be sent into the battle"? I was proud, I was glad that I was sent into battle because it was my contribution to liberate this country, to liberate the oppressed.

I wasn't going to go back and ask our commanders about the order or the nature of the order. Even if there were grannies there we were going to attack, I wasn't going to go back and ask questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you were proud and glad to have been told to go and kill people and you wouldn't go to anything that might stop you doing that?

MR MADASI: Judge Wilson, it was a war between the oppressor and the oppressed. As we were fighting, anybody who was oppressed wanted to fight against the oppression to overcome the oppression because even the oppressors, they used their own tactics, their weapons to fight, to oppress us. Yes, I am proud.

I left home, my parents loved me and I left them behind, volunteered, yes I was proud to fight, to be in the battle. I don't regret having taken part in APLA. APLA consists of soldiers, different units inside South Africa. I feel that the struggle the Africans took part in was a good thing, it was noble.

It would take the day to list the number of things that Boers did against the oppressed, the cruel things that they did. It was not sinful what we did. APLA fought for the oppressed. I hope I've answered you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Madasi, - and I'm referring the Committee to page 47 and 49 of the bundle, there were two statements from employees at the hotel on that evening. Page 47, that's the statement of Bingklela and I refer to paragraph 5 there of Mr Chairman and the statement of Kameni at page 49 paragraph 2.

Now I just want to draw your attention to the fact that the staff were told by a gunman who appeared in the kitchen area to keep, that they must keep quiet and that this person then moved past them deeper into the hotel. My question is, it would seem from that - and I'm putting it to you, that the staff were told to keep quiet, they were left alone, they weren't threatened by your unit. That is what appears from their statements that they made when this hotel was attacked.

Now I'm putting to you that this seems to fly in the face of your evidence a short while ago, that it made no difference whether there were black people or white people there, you were simply there to attack the target. Would you care to clarify that or answer that?

MR MADASI: First of all you must also ask yourself a question that, how can you pass a person and then move onto others, what if this person hit you from behind because you don't know this person? In the matter that you say that the gun - the people say that the gunmen passed them, I'm not going to say anything about that because I don't know.

If they say that he did not heed the blacks, I don't know why would he leave them behind. I don't want to say anything about that because I don't know about it.

MR PRIOR: So obviously that wasn't you, it must have been one of your other comrades, Mr Diamoneng or Mr ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: Excuse me, this I'm not going to confirm this. I'm not denying it but I'm not going to confirm it because first of all it's the first time I hear about this, that there were people who say that there was a gunman who passed them. I don't know about it so I'm not going to confirm it. I don't know whether it happened or not.

MR PRIOR: Well I'm putting to you that it happened. These two witnesses have made statements, those statements were given to your attorney on Wednesday of last and I assume that you had been informed of that. And I'm simply putting to you a portion of the paragraph where you they say: whilst they were in the kitchen area a gunmen came in, told them - when they started screaming, to keep quiet, they were unmolested and the gunmen then went past them into a different place of the hotel where the shooting then occurred.

Are you saying that that didn't happen or are you unable to comment on whether that happened or not, possibly because you weren't in that portion of the hotel?

MR MADASI: When I gave in my report about this operation I did not include this because I don't know anything about it. If the comrade Nxeba perhaps was there and knew that that had happened he should have reported it and we would have included it in the report. There was no such report and I don't know anything about it.

MR PRIOR: Did your co-applicant, that is Mr Diamoneng, was he also in the hotel or was he outside the hotel when the shooting occurred?

MR MADASI: He was outside next to the window.

MR PRIOR: So was it yourself and Nxeba who entered the hotel?

MR MADASI: I think you are mixing the whole story up. It is Nxebe who went round the other way ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Just tell us ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: Please give me a moment Sir. It is Nxeba, I and comrade Mlungisi - I opened the door by the bar and I shot whilst I was standing by the door. It was Mlungisi and I who was inside, Nxeba was standing at the back.

MR PRIOR: Did you shoot the person who was sitting at the bar? And I want to refer you to page 28 and 29 of the bundle which shows the deceased, Mr Jerling slumped over the bar, was it you that shot at that gentleman?

MR MADASI: I can't say whether it was me or Mlungisi because we both shot, we were shooting towards the place where there were people. I can't say whether I'm the one who shot him or it was Mlungisi because we were both shooting towards the same place.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever go into the kitchen area of the hotel before shooting in the bar?

MR MADASI: I have no idea which side the kitchen is.

MR PRIOR: So you never saw any black employees of the hotel before you shot in the bar, is that what you're saying?

MR MADASI: I did not see any black people there. We got off the car and we started shooting, it was all fast.

MR PRIOR: And was that in the front - did you enter the bar from the front entrance?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: There was a front door with windows at the side.

ADV SANDI: I'm listening to both Xhosa and English. There seems to have been a misunderstanding between the witness and the interpreter. I think he said at some point: "I did not see any people there" and the interpretation was: "I did not see any black people there". Maybe you can clarify that with him, what exactly did he say?

MR PRIOR: I think the question was, did he see any black employees of the hotel and he answered that he didn't.

Is that correct?

MR MADASI: I did not see any workers, I did not identify anyone as a worker or whether they were there to drink. There was no-one outside the premises, we just focused at the bar.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any people at all there?

MR MADASI: When exactly?

ADV SANDI: Did you see any human being there, whether black or white?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that he and Mlungisi both shot to where there were people.

MR MADASI: That is correct, we did not identify any colour, we just saw people.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry, because again abantu can mean strictly black people, umululagenu munt(?), we say that sometimes or abantu could be as you say human beings, that's the only distinction Mr Sandi is trying to draw because we understand the Xhosa meaning of umuntu(?). That is the only bit of clarification that I can appreciate him asking and I was wondering as well, thanks. If you can just help us on that one, mauti abantu ...[indistinct]. Do you mean ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: It's fine Advocate Gcabashe, you don't have to wait for the interpretation, just carry on speaking.

MR MADASI: The reason why I said that there were people is because there was a noise. There were people playing darts. The people that were there were white, I did not see any black workers.

MR PRIOR: In paragraph 14 of your affidavit you said

"I entered the door of the pub, Nxeba went to the rear door of the hotel and Mlungisi was at the window"

Is that so?

MR MADASI: Paragraph?

MR PRIOR: 14 of your affidavit. I want to know from you, did Mlungisi, that is your co-applicant, did he shoot from outside the premises, shooting into the premises through the window? Is that what you're saying there?

MR MADASI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And when Nxeba went to the rear of the hotel, did you know whether he shot at all or you unaware or can't you say that, whether he shot?

MR MADASI: I don't think that he shot because according to the report that he gave - I'm not sure whether his gun jammed or not, I don't know, however he did not shoot because we put him there so that if there are people escaping from the back then he would attack.

MR PRIOR: You see why I ask you that, are you saying he never made a report that the gun jammed?

MR MADASI: I don't know because you said that his gun jammed in an operation area in a danger zone, that's a bit confusing, it's the first time I hear of that.

MR PRIOR: Did he tell you that or didn't he tell you that?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, maybe we can just help the witness here. We don't know exactly whose gun jammed at this point in time ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: I'm coming to that Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: So let's not put it to him on the basis that someone's gun jammed, did anyone report that their gun jammed during the operation?

Let's clarify that first and then we'll take it to the next step.

MR PRIOR: I'm putting it to him specifically whether Nxeba's told him because we know the other one stood at the window.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRIOR: Yes, Nxeba. Thank you Mr Chairman. Maybe I'll just cut to the chase, page 43, the statement of Mr Clyde Conway Shorts who was the assistant manager ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just before you do Mr Prior, let him just answer the question we put to him.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Did anyone's gun jam as far as you are aware? As the commander of the operation, did anyone report to you that their gun jammed during the operation, yes or not?

MR MADASI: There was never a report that the gun jammed in the danger zone, however after the operation, after we'd left then it was discovered that a gun had jammed but not during the operation, ...[indistinct] withdrawal.

MR LAX: Whose gun jammed?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the

answer?

MR MADASI: The report concerning the jamming of the gun was not such that the gun jammed during the operation, the comrade reported afterwards, after we'd already dropped off the car, that his gun has jammed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?

MR MADASI: Comrade Nxeba.

MR PRIOR: He was the one that went to the rear of the hotel?

MR MADASI: Correct.

MR PRIOR: When you started shooting in the bar area, did they lights go off in the hotel?

MR MADASI: I wouldn't know, I didn't notice anything about lights.

MR PRIOR: I've had sight - I haven't put up the documents, but I've had sight of the electrical report that the mains were struck, the cable was struck that ran in the bar and that's when the lights went out plunging the hotel in darkness. So you say you have no recollection of the lights going out?

MR MADASI: No, I did not notice such.

MR PRIOR: I just want to put to you what Mr Short said in a statement that he made on the early morning after the attack at page 43, 44 Mr Chairman. In paragraph 2 at the top of the page he said he saw this gunman and he thought that this person had an AK47 automatic rifle. At the top of the page, page 44 he said

" As he appeared from out of the kitchen I saw that he cocked the weapon. He pointed the weapon at me and pulled the trigger. I then hear the weapon make a clicking sound but no shot was discharged. I then put my hands in the air and asked him if he wanted money. He kept trying to cock the gun and kept saying: stand still. At this stage I heard gun shots ring out and the premises were plunged in darkness. I heard a number of shots ring out from the bar area"

MR MADASI: What is your question Sir?

MR PRIOR: From the account of Mr Shorts who had confronted, and I would presume to have been Nxeba in the rear portion of the premises away from the bar, that Nxeba tried to shoot him but the gun jammed at that stage. Was that not reported to you?

MR MADASI: That was not reported to me.

MR PRIOR: What I'm also putting to you is that the person that entered through the rear portion of the hotel told the black employees to keep quiet or to keep still, in other words that he didn't seem to be interested in them. Are you able to comment

MR MADASI: That does not really make sense because Nxeba did not go inside and just leave the black people. I did not get such a report as a unit commander because Nxeba was meant to have divulged such information. Whether it happened or not I would not know, I did not get such a report.

MR PRIOR: Where's Nxeba today, have you seen him since the operation?

MR MADASI: I don't know.

MR PRIOR: And after your operation you disbanded, you never saw him again?

MR MADASI: The last time we saw each other was when we went to Cape Town, that was the last time I saw him.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you went to Cape Town on several occasions, was that during your operations or was that when you went as part of the amnesty process, which? Was Nxeba part of your Cape Town ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: During the time of the operation Sir.

MR PRIOR: Was Nxeba part of your unit in Cape Town?

MR MADASI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And just to get some clarity because I want to check up on this, was he involved in Heidelberg, the Heidelberg Tavern attack?

MR MADASI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer you to what Mr Kenneth Mashalaba at page 35 of the papers ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman, I would like Mr Prior just to wrap up that question because he said he's going to check, whether he can ask the applicant what was the name he used in Cape Town, that is Nxeba, because I understand he was not using the same name.

MR PRIOR: I think Mr Mbandazayo puts it well, maybe he can answer that question.

What name did Nxeba use in Cape Town?

MR MADASI: Maxebu.

MR PRIOR: Mr Kenneth Mashalaba at page 35 of the bundle said he, on the 20th of March 1993, was in Alice when his vehicle was taken from him and I think that was a Nissan motor vehicle. It was a Nissan Sentra but it doesn't appear so from the statement Mr Chairman.

Do you remember that vehicle, the Nissan Sentra in Alice?

MR MADASI: Yes, this is the one we used to go and attack.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mashalaba said that someone pushed him into the passenger seat and that he had struck this person with his fist, is that correct? Did this person put up a resistance?

MR MADASI: Does Mr Mashalaba say who he was with in the car?

MR MADASI: There was a female on the back seat, do you remember that?

MR MADASI: Yes, I wanted you to clarify that point.

MR PRIOR: Now that I've clarified it, do you remember it?

MR MADASI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And do you remember that he put up resistance, he tried to strike the person or did strike the person, pushing him over?

MR MADASI: The lady that was there was in shock, she was in shock because of what was happening. Mashalaba was in shock and it's the lady that count him down, nobody was beaten, nobody was attacked. We did not want to fight. They just showed that they wanted to run away because they were in shock.

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't heard the question properly, the question was that Mashalaba fought with one of the people who wanted to push him into the passenger seat of the car. That is what Mashalaba says in his statement, so you didn't understand the question properly. The question is not that you assaulted anybody or any of your members ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: Excuse me a moment Sir, we did not fight with anyone. We ended up getting the car and we travelled with them, delivered them between Alice and Fort Beaufort. We didn't fight with anybody. Not a single unit member fought with ...[intervention]

MR LAX: If you would just stop and listen for a second, just try and listen. Try not to think about the trick behind my question, just try and listen carefully then this will go a lot more quickly. There's not trick. I'm trying to explain to you that you misunderstood the first question and you'll already trying to tell me that I'm wrong now. Just listen carefully please. Gashly, we'll get there, slowly, slowly we'll get there.

Now, what Mr Prior asked you was what Mashalaba says in his statement. He doesn't say you fought with him, he says he fought with one of you. Do you understand? I'll read you the section. He says that he was at his friend's house and when he was leaving:

"Whilst she was standing next to the car and I was about to start my car a guy came and pushed me to the passenger seat and I beat him with my fist and he immediately drew a pistol and said I must be quiet"

That is what he says happened. Now, what do you say about that, that's what Mr Prior was asking you.

MR MADASI: It is not so. The reason why I say that is because I have a good memory of what happened and how it happened. We approached these people, we had the guns. He had not even entered the car. We got to him before he got into the car, he was told to move aside. I was talking to him. As I was talking to him, that he must go onto the other side so that Nxeba can start the car and drive off. Mlungisi was talking to the lady. She is the one who was not too much in shock ...[end of tape]

...[inaudible] to give in and not to run away. She is the one who said they must listen to us, which they did. There was no struggle. I am the one who talked to him and I didn't hit him. That's probably a statement that he gave to the police or the TRC, I don't know. I don't know what led him to say this. We could have shot him but we didn't, that showed that we talked and communicated with them. If he had fought one of us we would have beaten him up. Why didn't anyone shoot at him if they drawn a gun?

MR LAX: Well the answer is quite simple. He says that once you had pointed the gun at him and told him to be quiet he was quiet, he didn't do anything after that. So that is why there was no other fight about it. But anyway, you've given us your answer.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. There's just one final aspect on this matter. The last paragraph he says

"I asked them whether they took my car or not and they said I must not be worried, they are APLA, African People's Liberation Army soldiers, they are going to kill whites and my car is going to be safe"

Did you say that, did any of your group say that or did you say that to Mr Mashalaba, that you were going to kill whites, you were using his vehicle for that purpose?

MR MADASI: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer you to page 37 of the bundle, it was Reverend Albert Maboyz Dingane. He can't remember the precise date, he says it was a Friday evening during March '93, this was the red metal bronze Nissan Langley CAU registration, do you remember that vehicle?

MR MADASI: Yes, I do remember it.

MR PRIOR: Was that vehicle taken on the same night of the attack or was it on a different night?

MR MADASI: It was a different night.

MR PRIOR: Before the shooting or after the shooting? Before the shooting of the 20th of March? Was Reverend Dingane's vehicle taken before that event or was it after that event?

MR MADASI: I think before.

MR PRIOR: He also says in paragraph 3 that firearms were pointed at him when the vehicle was taken from him and he was also threatened with death, you threatened to kill him and that he should simply report the vehicle was stolen and not robbed. Would you like to just comment on that?

MR MADASI: There is no such thing that we were going to kill him because we would talk to the owners of the car just like we talked to Mr Mashalaba, we never said that we were going to kill anyone.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer the Committee to page 108 of the bundle.

I refer to remarks that you made during a pointing out. It would seem from this document that house number 906 the house of one, Mr Zixhasha was pointed out by you. And I just put this for your comment - this was also - I think the house was in Dimbaza, where you said - and I'm going to translate it from the Afrikaans:

"Jerry, Lester, Vuya, ...[indistinct], Thembelani and myself, we stayed at this house. It was here that we made petrol bombs and hand grenades with nails fixed to them which were used in the golf club, referring to King William's Town"

Do you remember saying that?

MR MADASI: All that you have said - I was tortured by the Boers, I don't want to run away from that fact. I had to admit to anything that APLA was responsible for because I was a member of APLA. There is no such. If this is so, it is false, it is false.

MR PRIOR: You were never involved in the King William's Town golf club attack?

MR MADASI: No, I was never involved.

MR PRIOR: Were you base in Butterworth at any stage before the Fort Beaufort attack?

MR MADASI: I can't remember, however I do remember that I met comrade Xomiso in Umtata, it's been a while.

MR PRIOR: And Jimmy Jones, is that name familiar to you?

MR MADASI: I don't know Jimmy Jones. Perhaps if I saw him I would remember him or recall him but the name Jimmy Jones I don't know.

MR PRIOR: You never trained in Butterworth at all?

MR MADASI: Not at all.

MR PRIOR: Mr Madasi, you said you were proud and glad to be part of the fight of the war and in an answer, I think to the Chairman, you gladly carried out your instructions to kill people irrespective of who they were when you were simply following an order, is that correct?

MR MADASI: What do you mean: "I was just following an order"?

MR PRIOR: I don't particularly want to get into that analogy between the elderly women or grannies in a hotel if you'd got there but you were glad to be part of the struggle as you put it, you were glad to kill people on instructions from your commanders, is that correct? You weren't questioning your orders, you simply carried out your orders without question. There was no room for you as the commander of that unit to turn away or to turn back if you saw for example, that they weren't security policemen, they were people other than the expected target?

MR MADASI: We have 15 points of attention under APLA and they stipulate that you should always strictly obey orders and be punctual. When you're given an order, that order is not given to someone who does not know what they are about.

The orders were given to APLA members who voluntarily joined the APLA, not forced. I was proud to receive the order because I was going to the battlefield. What was left of me was to plan how to go about the order and to make sure that it is successful. The order was not given to someone who was not prepared or somebody who was not in anticipation of such.

MR PRIOR: You make - if I can just come back to the attack on the hotel. Mr Jerling was 18 years of age, he was unarmed, he was enjoying a drink at the bar with three or four of his friends who were also unarmed. How did his death, how did killing him, in your mind, further your political objective? Did it in fact assist in any way?

MR MADASI: Could you please repeat the question because I do want to answer it.

MR PRIOR: Yes. I'm putting to you the facts, Mr Jerling was not a member of the security forces and that will be the evidence that I will lead in a short while, not were the other people at the bar that evening, there were four or five other people present who were not members of the security forces. So, I want to put to you - maybe I can just rephrase the question, your instructions or your intelligence or your information was hopelessly incorrect.

MR LAX: Sorry, you left out one important factor as well Mr Prior, that they weren't armed.

MR PRIOR: Yes, they were unarmed.

MR MADASI: As Sobukwe said, ...[no English translation]

"We regard them as the shareholders in the South African oppressors campaign right? There are whites of course, who are intellectually converted to our cause right, but because of their position materially they can not fully identify themselves with the struggle of the African people. They want safeguards and checkpoints all along the way with the result that the struggle of the people is blunted, stultified and crushed. So I think" ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just stop you? We didn't hear the interpretation that preceded you starting to read the quote from Robert Sobukwe, so unfortunately it's difficult to know what the context around the quote is. You began this quote by saying some contextual words but we don't know what that was unfortunately.

MR MADASI: Alright. The question was do we regard all whites as oppressors, that was the questions.

MR LAX: Sorry, that wasn't the question actually but ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: What was the question?

MR LAX: The question was that Mr Jerling was completely unarmed, his friends were unarmed, they were not in any way connected to the security forces. The question was, can you comment on the fact that your intelligence was so badly out of line with the facts? That was the question.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry, if I may?

Your intelligence in relation to the information that he got, not his own natural intelligence.

MR LAX: The word in intelligence has a special meaning in the military, it implies the gathering of information. Sorry, I'm not for one moment insulting the man.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I was going to say that - just before you intervened, that the question was not related. The applicant was quoting and I'm sure he was trying to put into context the question which was being asked, by quoting from what Sobukwe had said and I think the Committee should allow him to answer in his way.

MR LAX: Please go ahead. We don't have a problem with that, we're just trying to make sure we all understand that we're on the same question.

MR PRIOR: Maybe I can just repeat the question as we seem to be arguing about nothing.

The question was - I broke up the question and I want to ask it in two parts. The first part is, your information, your instruction was to attack Yellowwood Hotel because military personnel went there. I'm putting to you that the evidence is the facts are in this case, Mr Jerling was 18 years of age, he was unarmed and having a drink with some other people, some friends who were also unarmed. He was not a member of the security forces, the police or the army and nor were the other people at the hotel on that evening. The question being, that on the facts it would seem that your intelligence, your information gathering and your instructions were hopelessly out of line, out of synchronisation, out of touch with the facts. Are you able to comment?

MR MADASI: First of all, I don't know the gentleman that you're referring to, it is the first time I hear of him right now. The order was such that the place was frequented by members of the security forces. This hotel was located out of town and people who would go and have a good time out of town.

What you're saying about Mr Jerling and not being armed or his friends not being armed, I did not know that at the time. Even if I did know that the people in there were not armed, however if there were other reasons for the attack I would continue and attack. It is the first time I hear that there were these men there.

Excuse Mr Prior, give me a moment to finish. I know that nobody has a right to take another person's life no matter who you are, where you're from, who created you, you have no right to take another person's life. However, what I was about I am proud of. This is what led us to the transformation in South Africa. The loss of life is painful and I would like to reconcile with the families and the victims.

Whether the people were armed or not armed or his friends were armed or not armed, that was not part of the information or the intelligence that we received. I would have made a decision with the person who gave me the orders, however we attacked under the reasons that the place was frequented by security members.

MR PRIOR: A week before that you broke off the attack, you didn't continue the attack because you found that the hotel was closed. If the order was to attack those premises, why did you not continue with the attack? There were certainly rooms at the hotel, people stayed at the hotel? Why did you carry on with that attack?

MR MADASI: The way the reconnaissance was done we could not afford to go and inspect bedrooms. We were drawn by the number of the people inside the bar. We found that a lot of people would sit in the bar, at the bar and I was given orders that this place should be attacked on Friday or Saturday.

We got there and it was closed the first time but that did not stop us from completing our work, we went the next day. We were even chased the first time but we continued the next day. I hope I have answered you.

MR PRIOR: I put it to you that there were five people in the bar at the time that you started shooting, can you confirm that?

MR MADASI: I did not count the number of people.

MR PRIOR: And you shot Mr Jerling as he was seated at the bar, as is depicted on the photograph. You shot him through the head and he slumped froward. He died as a result of a gunshot would to the head. Did you aim? Did you take aim when you shot him?

MR MADASI: I did not aim that I'm going to shoot so and so and where. I knew that there was a comrade shooting through the window. I know that my weapon was on repeat as I was shooting, I was just shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't in fact said Mr Prior, that he shot the deceased?

MR PRIOR: Well I'm putting it to him because on the basis of his affidavit he said he entered the bar and shot and if necessary there will be evidence that the shots came from a particular direction that killed Mr Jerling, it was from inside the bar and not from outside. Mr Jerling wasn't sitting opposite the window through which shots were fired. He was shot by someone who was in the bar. On his own admission he was in the bar firing shots, so it's on that that I'm putting to him that he was the person that shot Mr Jerling.

MS GCABASHE: But he has already responded to that. He has said in his evidence that two of them shot, he doesn't know whether he personally shot that particular victim.

MR PRIOR: I'm suggesting that he is the one because of the evidence, of what I know about the matter. But yes, I hear what he says, he says he doesn't know. He just shot indiscriminately.

MS GCABASHE: Well Mr Madasi, Mr Prior is putting it to you that because of where you were standing you must have shot this particular person, maybe you want to comment on that?

MR MADASI: Thank you Ma'am. The word perhaps can mean a lot of things, it's ambivalent. It could be me or my comrade. I don't know which bullet hit him, whether it was from me or from my comrade. If he wants to put it that way I can't dispute it. I don't know how else to explain myself.

MR PRIOR: The political training - and this is my last aspect, the political training that you received before this attack, were you ever informed that APLA had to do something to keep the support of the masses, in other words the people on the ground because of the deaths on the trains, the deaths at vigils, as we've heard in earlier applications or other applications for amnesty.

Was that communicated to you, that APLA had to strike and strike hard, particularly in the white areas and at white people? In other words to keep up the support of the masses, the black masses, if I can put it that way? It was put by some of your leaders at the open of the submissions, that these were called legitimate reprisals.

MR MADASI: The battle that APLA was fighting was a battle that APLA saw as being legitimate because it was fighting oppressors. APLA stood for the people, it was the people's army. Everything that APLA did it did it to protect the African masses and the masses of AZANIA. Everything that APLA did was encouraged by the people, Viva APLA people carried on. The AZANIAN masses supported us in whatever we did.

MR PRIOR: And did that exclude the white people, the white population?

MR MADASI: How so, because APLA was not racist.

MR PRIOR: But you don't answer my question. You said APLA was to protect the masses of AZANIA, did that - I'm asking you specifically, did that - and I want a specific answer, did that exclude the white population of this country of AZANIA or were they included in the group that was to be protected?

MR MADASI: Your question is clear. Whether we excluded the white people or not, there were white people who sympathised with us. These people were not labelled on their foreheads that they were supporting us. Everybody that was white was regarded as an enemy, the oppressor.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer to page 87 of the general submissions made by APLA during October of last year and I refer to the paragraph that follows the sub-heading

"Member of Delegation"

I unfortunately don't know who was speaking at that stage, I think it was Brigadier Mofokeng but I'm not too sure because on the previous page he certainly was giving evidence. I want to quote and I want you to listen carefully. The delegate said:

"I want to add comrade Chairman, that during this time when our people were being killed in the townships, members of APLA, those commanders who were inside the country were very angry, to the extent that they thought that maybe our people will say that they are not protecting them properly or successfully. That is one of the things which made them to take this decision of mounting these operations. These operations being the attacks soft civilian targets, white targets"

and I continue with the quote:

"They feel that they feel guilty, referring to the commanders, that if the war is being taken to the black townships they must also take the war to the white areas. That was one of the reasons"

Now my question is, was that sentiment conveyed to you as part of your political training, as part of being a member of APLA before you embarked on the Yellowwood Hotel attack? That is what I want to know, was that part of your information that you received or was it not?

MR MADASI: In my understanding right - I'm going to repeat this. Comrade Sabelo Pama declared 1993 as: "They Year of Great Storms". Every member of APLA was prepared to participate in the great storm. We wanted to show the white man that it was wrong to oppress Africans. The question of whether we were told of white people - I forget exactly what you said, we were not told whatever it is that you're asking.

MS GCABASHE: Mr Madasi, if you'd rather he repeated that last little bit, he can do that so that you can answer him fully. It's not a problem for him to repeat that last aspect.

MR MADASI: ..[no English translation]

MR PRIOR: The question was, was that information, that quotation, the information that is contained therein, that the war must be taken to the white areas because of the anger of the local commanders at being perceived as not doing enough to protect the black people in the townships, was that part of your political training before you embarked on this specific operation to attack Yellowwood Hotel?

MR MADASI: I understand you. First of all, APLA is a military wing of PAC, APLA stems from PAC. Decisions made by the PAC which consists of the oppressed people of AZANIA, the decisions that PAC takes affects the decisions that APLA had to take. PAC has it's own ...[end of tape]

...[inaudible] from the high command. We were prepared for those orders and we were prepared to fight because we also were of the view that what the white people, the oppressors were doing was wrong. We had to show the white man that he cannot continue to express because it is not acceptable to the people of AZANIA.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the last sentence.

MR PRIOR: No, you're answered the question, thank you. I want to ask you finally - and this was despite the fact that there was widespread ...[intervention]

MR MADASI: What was the interpreter asking for repetition?

INTERPRETER: The applicant would like to explain the part that the interpreter said she did not hear, when Mr Prior said it was alright, the question had been answered.

MR PRIOR: He wanted me to repeat the last portion. I think he's answered my question, I was happy with the reply unless the Committee wants that last portion. He gave a long answer and I was happy with that answer. I have no further questions.

May I ask the Committee an opportunity, just ask Mrs Jerling who is present or the family whether she has any questions of the applicant? She indicates none, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS GCABASHE: And just to finish off that point to satisfy you Mr Madasi. As a Committee certainly the answer was sufficient so there's nothing that we have missed. Having said that this ...[indistinct] your future, there's nothing that ...[indistinct] by the interpreter having missed that little bit, if you are happy with that.

MR MADASI: I have nothing more to say but there is something that I would like to say before the TRC if the Chairperson would give me a moment please.

CHAIRPERSON: I was asking you attorney who appears for you if he wanted to ask you any questions he can do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, there's no re-examination except Mr Chairman I think the applicant would like to be given an opportunity to say something to the Committee. I have no re-examination. If he can just be given that opportunity?

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

MR MADASI: Thank you very much. Just to use this moment given to me by the TRC, I am thankful. First of all, I want to reiterate as a member of APLA and as a member of PAC and a person who is in prison because of what we were fighting for, for the people of AZANIA, it is painful that we still continue to feel this pain. I know that the decision is taken wherever.

Secondly, the Africans that are in jail have a lot of problems, I think that the TRC should show and reveal that what is going on is not right. We heard here of delays of people or prisoners being taken from one prison to another. The people that we have to deal with under correctional services are hard to deal with ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker slow down please.

MR MADASI: The problem that we experience under the Department of Correctional Services is unspeakable, it is painful. Even if people will say we are gangsters and hooligans please, you must know that we are soldiers. We are not mercenaries, we are soldiers for the people. We stood for the people. How is it that up to this day not a single APLA combatant has received results for amnesty whether it is passed or failed. It is extremely frustrating. I understand the position of victims.

The PAC organisation should have their own programme between themselves and the victims, that is up to the PAC. As members of PAC, it's not that we are not prepared to reconcile but the relationship between the so-called perpetrators and the victims, that is up to the PAC. Please, the PAC must do something. Tell us whether we are staying in jail or we are getting out of jail.

We do not have a political status in prison, you must not be under that impression. We are treated as common criminals in prisons. I don't want to delve in that because we are going to identify the word criminal differently. We are under a lot of pain. We should help each other in facing this problem, in solving it. If you have a reason why you are keeping APLA members in jail, perhaps you've got a reason, perhaps you can divulge or let us know what the reasons behind are. It's been a long time, I hope the TRC has heard me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There are various reason why there are delays in hearings and decisions but one the major ones is the lack of response from the PAC. And you may have heard today when we were trying with the help of attorneys, to arrange that senior PAC officials appear and give evidence confirming what the soldiers of the APLA did and we are having great difficulty in getting the assistance of those people to come and tell us.

And if you can persuade your leaders to come forward and assist, it will make matters very much easier. I think your attorney is fully aware of the problems we are having getting such information, such confirmation.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I also just respond from my side regarding the prison services. Obviously I cannot comment on what happens outside these walls, what happens in prison but certainly I must place on record that the South African Prison Services have gone out of their way to accommodate the very many applicants who were in jail all over the country, to get them to East London, to get them here timeously, to get them here under very difficult circumstances to enable them to consult with the attorneys.

I find Mr Madasi's statements disturbing in the following sense, that if there was any improper conduct I will certainly take it up with the prison authorities. I understand that he was brought to East London on the 6th of the 7th of April so I don't know, when he refers to being moved around, whether he's referring to himself or somebody else, but certainly that was my information. And he has been in East London since at least the 6th of April, today being the 14th. So if the suggestion is that the prison services are moving them around to make consultation difficult, then I will most certainly take it up at the highest level.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before - I want just to add to what has been said by Mr Prior. In fact Mr Prior, I don't he is referring to them being moved for the hearings of the TRC. I'm sure he's just mentioning general conditions under which they are staying in prison, when or where they are kept or anywhere, not necessarily regarding the process of what is happening here in East London.

Mr Chairman, I think also - let me apologise, I was supposed to come today about whether Mr Leklapa will be available. Mr Chairman, over the weekend, as I indicated, I communicated with him and he told me that he has no problem with that though he does not know whether personally he has to come but he is still going to contact the members of the high command as he representing them.

He gave me an undertaking that even if it is not himself, it's his deputy and other members, they will definitely come before the Committee. As such we have agreed that we will meet in Aliwal North during the hearings in Aliwal North. So I will give a definite answer in Aliwal North Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, because as you know it's very important to us that we have this information before us. It would speed up the processes enormously as I think you are fully aware.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am fully aware of that, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I ask whether we are going to be sitting a little later. We have lot a lot of time today but obviously I'm in the Committee's hands. We have the victims that are from Fort Beaufort but I understand that they are prepared to go back and then drive back tomorrow morning and I'm confident that is start at say 9 o'clock, I think we'd finish the evidence at least.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting we should not continue now?

MR PRIOR: I'm in your hands Mr Chairman. I understand from Mr Mthembu that in any event he would ask for an indulgence. Obviously there is a lot of information that has come out that he'd like to canvass with Mr Diamoneng before he leads his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well who would be the next witness?

MR PRIOR: It would be him.

CHAIRPERSON: Him, he would be the next witness?

MR PRIOR: Yes, he would be the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position and it may have altered or may be slightly different down here, there are problems returning persons to the prisons at a late hour - is there no problem there? But we have had other people who - although they haven't been working, they've been here all day and it's getting a little tiring for them I think.

And I appreciate - you would want to consult wouldn't you?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So if we adjourn now you can consult now and we can start at 9. If we don't adjourn now you will come along at 9 o'clock tomorrow and ask for time to consult.

Right. I think we will grant your application Mr Prior but there is just one point that we want to clarify here.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.

Mr Madasi, just one very small point. You gave feedback to Mr Leklapa and comrade Mzala, who is comrade Mzala?

MR MADASI: It was one of the names that we used, however his proper name was comrade Mandla, if that was his proper name.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you, we've heard of him.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

Just one small question, you said you received your training in the Transkei under Mzala, where did that happen?

MR MADASI: In Umtata.

MR LAX: And do you remember the year?

MR MADASI: 1992.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we will now ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, just one little last thing that I've picked up in my notes. You said that when you took the Langley you spoke to the owner and you said you tried to communicate the conditions to him, those were the precise words you used, what did you mean by that?

MR MADASI: Explain again Sir, please.

MR LAX: I made a note of your evidence, when you took the Langley at Mdantsane, you said: "We talked to him, the owner, we tried to communicate the conditions to him". I didn't quite know what you meant by that. Those were the precise words you used and I wrote them down, what exactly did you mean by that?

MR MADASI: We gave him an explanation, that we are members of APLA and we wanted to go and kill white people, if he would hand over the car please. We would give the car back to him in good condition. However if it happens that, as we're going to leave him, he's going to go and report to the police he was going to lose his car because the police would come after us and his car would get damaged in the process and therefore to make matters easy he must cooperate. I don't know whether he did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

We will now adjourn and we hope that we can commence at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, that is if the people can all be here on time before then because I am quite sure that the attorney would have overnight thought of a few more questions they want to ask. So if they could be here by half past eight?

May I remind you please to leave your earphones on your chairs. There is really no point in taking out of this room because they don't work outside.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS