CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, your next witness?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am going to call upon Mr Atasios Motlana Mphoreng.
MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Mphoreng, you made a statement wherein you are applying for amnesty for the killing of four youths in Showela on the 1st of August 1986, is that so?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: In the first paragraph of your statement you say that
"The political conflict between AZAPO and the UDF reached an unprecedent level in 1986. In Johannesburg in particular it got very ugly when some of our members were brutally killed and set alight by student members alliant to the UDF"
and you mention Khomezulu, Martin Mohau and Mr Buks Leo(?). Can you briefly tell us how the situation was then, that is during this period of around the 1st of August 1986? That is the relationship between you and the UDF affiliated organisations.
MR MPHORENG: In 1986, especially here in Johannesburg, it was a general thing that the UDF and AZAPO were in a state of war. What clearly showed this was that in that year AZAPO lost many prominent members and among members we lost in AZAPO I can mention comrade Sipho Khomezulu who stayed in Zola.
Comrade Khomezulu was very prominent in the organisation and it had not been long since his return from Robben Island. Comrade Khomezulu was killed by members of the UDF Alliance, SOSCO because he was a member of AZAPO.
CHAIRPERSON: What does this SOSCO stand for in full?
MR MPHORENG: Soweto Student Congress.
MR TLOUBATLA: Were you at the funeral of Mr Sipho Khomezulu?
MR MPHORENG: I did not attend the funeral because, but I was at the night vigil.
MR TLOUBATLA: The night vigil, did it go uninterrupted? Were there any incidents at the night vigil of Sipho Khomezulu?
MR MPHORENG: There were no problems if I remember very well.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mention Mr Martin Mohau, do you know how he was killed?
MR MPHORENG: Martin Mohau was a comrade in AZAPO and he had not been back from Robben Island for a long time, when they came back from the cemetery at Avelon, comrade Mohau was killed by members of SOSCO.
MR TLOUBATLA: How did you establish that the people who killed Martin Mohau were members of SOSCO?
MR MPHORENG: I have explained earlier that it was general knowledge in 1986 among the community in Johannesburg that there was a conflict between UDF and AZAPO. Comrade Martin if I remember well, had an AZAPO T-shirt and that's how they identified him.
MR TLOUBATLA: You mention in your second paragraph that you were permanently misplaced, can you give us some more information on that? Were you personally misplaced, how did you live, where did you stay and then any other members of the organisation that you know that were misplaced and where did you stay?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mphoreng, are you fully conversant with Sotho? Is that your mother tongue or is there any other African language that you more conversant with? The interpreters want to know whether you are fully conversant with Sotho.
MR MPHORENG: I'm comfortable in Sotho and Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: What is your mother tongue?
MR MPHORENG: Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well maybe you should - what language have you been speaking, I haven't been listening? Were you speaking South Sotho or Tswana all along?
MR MPHORENG: Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Yes? I had to interrupt because there was a complaint from the interpreters that they can't hear you clearly.
Yes Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
The last question was, you are speaking of misplacement, that you were misplaced and I want you to give us more details about the misplacement. Who was misplaced and then where did those people stay, how and so on.
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned that ...[intervention]
MR TLOUBATLA: Just take it slow, don't be fast okay, so that we can follow you.
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned earlier on that in 1986 I was a member of AZAPO and in that year AZAPO and UDF were fighting. As a member of AZAPO it was not safe for me as well as other comrades of mine to stay with our families, that is why we were misplaced. That is why we had camps where we could stay, thinking that we are safe in those camps. Unlike staying in our respective homes because you sleep alone at home and it's not safe in that way.
CHAIRPERSON: The interpreter uses the word misplaced, I think they are saying displaced.
INTERPRETER: Thank you Chairperson.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
You home, where was it at the time and then where were you staying to try and avoid these attacks from your opposition organisation?
MR MPHORENG: In 1986 I stayed in Orlando East and I went to stay in one of our hide-outs in some parts in Orlando East far from home.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mention, that is on the second page of your application, that is page 15 of the bundle, you say
"Parents were killed because they fathered members of a wrong political organisation"
You mention Khomezulu, Sitlejani, Lingani's houses were burnt down. Do you know of any particular parents of members of your organisation who were perhaps harassed or killed, that is the parents who were either harassed or killed simply because they were the parents of members of your organisation?
MR MPHORENG: The parents that I remember who were killed in 1986 because their children were members of AZAPO, I remember Mr Jacob Lingani. Mr Jacob Lingani was killed because his children were members of AZAPO. I remember Mr Buks Leo who was also killed because his child was a member of AZAPO. In Zola I remember an incident where Lerato Sitlejani's was burnt down because Lerato was a member of AZAPO at that time.
MR TLOUBATLA: You further mention that
"In avoidance of retaliation and bloodshed we were continuously on the run and appealed to key leaders of the UDF to control the situation"
When you say you were continually on the run, what was happening, can you explain that?
MR MPHORENG: We are members of AZAPO, which is a political organisation which had discipline and a political programme. Most black people were part of our political programme, that is why it took us time to realise that we were supposed to defend ourselves by killing in other instances because members of SOSCO were black people. Before they became members of UDF - I will put it this way, before we had problems with them we were displaced at all times, trying to run away from them, trying to avoid conflicts.
MR TLOUBATLA: When you say you were continually or continuously on the run, would I be correct or is that, what you mean? In other words that you didn't keep one place, you didn't stay at one place all the time, is that the meaning that I should put into that?
MR MPHORENG: In English I would say we were nomadic because we did not stay at one place, the reason for that being that of security measure. If it could have been identified, our hiding place would be in danger and that is why we were nomadic, not staying in one place.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed to something else Mr Tloubatla, are you reading from, where are you reading from in leading your witness Mr Tloubatla? Are you reading from the statement which is an Annexure?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes. This bundle, I don't know whether the Chairman has got this ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Where precisely are you reading from?
MR TLOUBATLA: Page 15 of the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of what is being read to you?
MR MPHORENG: I have it Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: This is a letter that you wrote to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, this is my statement.
CHAIRPERSON: And it is not dated is it?
MR MPHORENG: No date in my statement Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: That signature on the last page, is that your signature?
MR MPHORENG: That's correct, this is my signature.
CHAIRPERSON: Has this letter been written by yourself, is this your own handwriting?
MR MPHORENG: This is my handwriting Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that what stands in this letter is the truth? Do you confirm the truth thereof now under oath?
MR MPHORENG: I confirm.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes, thank you.
You are mentioning in your statement that a meeting was attended by the late Doctor Asvat and Mrs Sesulu at the doctor's surgery ...[indistinct], do you know of any other efforts by the leadership nationally, either of UDF or AZAPO, to try and control this violence that was between the two organisations?
MR MPHORENG: The meeting that I remember very well was a meeting between Doctor Asvat who was a prominent leader of AZAPO and Mrs Albertina Sesulu who was also a prominent leader in the community at that time. This is a meeting that I remember very well, a meeting trying to bring an end to the problems between UDF and AZAPO,
MR TLOUBATLA: Besides this - before I even go into that, did you attend this meeting personally?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, I attended.
MR TLOUBATLA: Besides this meeting, are you aware of any other efforts from the leadership of the community or from any other members of the community to try and control the violence that was going on?
MR MPHORENG: Churches were involved if I remember very well because this was a community problem, a problem that affected the whole community. Churches took part, trying to solve the problems of the day. I remember Reverend Sibedi was involved in trying to solve this. If I remember well, Archbishop Tutu got involved in some of the cases, trying to stop violence.
MR TLOUBATLA: At the time, how old were you Mr Mphoreng, in 1986?
MR MPHORENG: I was 21 years old.
MR TLOUBATLA: What was your occupation?
MR MPHORENG: At the time of the incident bringing us here I was a full time member of the organisation. I
was involved at the branch level in Orlando, I was the
secretary of the organisation.
MR TLOUBATLA: You were not employed in the sense of receiving payment, salary and so on?
MR MPHORENG: I was unemployed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. Now coming to the incident of the killing of these boys at Showela, can you tell us how you got involved, who came to you, what happened, just from the very beginning.
MR MPHORENG: After Jeff's house was burnt down in Orlando West, Jeff came to Orlando at one of our hide-outs. It was in the morning when he arrived, I think it was round about half past six to 7 o'clock in the morning, and he briefed me that his house had been burnt.
After briefing me, I left together with him to Orlando West. Indeed when we arrived the curtains were burnt to ashes and the paint was also burnt and the blankets were burnt. He briefed me and he told me that petrol bombs were thrown into the house and they even shot into the air.
MR TLOUBATLA: With whom was he when he came to give you a report?
MR MPHORENG: When he came to fetch me he was alone.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then, was it just the two of you that went back to his house?
MR MPHORENG: He found me with a certain boy at our hide-out but this boy was not a member of the organisation, that is why we did not take him with, we left him and I left with Jeff.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you went back and what did you do when you went to his house?
MR MPHORENG: When I arrived at his house I found two comrades and we tried to clean the bedroom, yes, the curtains were burnt down and some of the blankets were also burnt down and we cleaned the room.
MR TLOUBATLA: The house, was it still standing normally, was it okay except that there had been some burnings inside?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, at that time the house was still standing. The main bedroom was the only room affected or was the room affected.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you started cleaning the house and then, what happened thereafter?
MR MPHORENG: Other comrades arrived in the process of cleaning the house. Probably news had spread already that Jeff's house was attacked. It was a tradition within AZAPO that when one of your comrades is in trouble we had to go and help him, now comrades were coming during the course of the day and leaving.
MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know who could possibly have alerted the other comrades to come in and check at Jeff's place?
MR MPHORENG: I don't know but I think it's Jeff himself.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you stayed there until when?
MR MPHORENG: I spent the whole day at Jeff's place, I left at night.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then during the day when you were there, except Jeff, any other members of the organisation with whom you were there that you can recall?
MR MPHORENG: When I arrived at Jeff's place in the morning I found comrade Sam and comrade Tammy already there and during the course of the day, comrade Pitso comrade Thandakubona and comrade Nani arrived. Yes, when I arrived I also found comrade Kabelo.
ADV BOSMAN: What time of the morning was it that you arrived at the house that had been burnt?
MR MPHORENG: If I can remember very well it was about 10 minutes to seven.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you spent the whole day, were there any disturbances whilst you were there for, let's say from members of UDF?
MR MPHORENG: While busy cleaning Jeff's house I think about 15 or 20 boys passed and they were singing intimidating slogans and the impression that I got at that time and the suspicion at that time as that yes, these are members of AZAPO.
ADV BOSMAN: At what time was it that the boys passed? How late was it when they passed?
MR MPHORENG: This happened at about half past eleven, a quarter to twelve.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you say that this group belonged to AZAPO or to UDF?
MR MPHORENG: I said, when we were busy cleaning a group of boys, and I suspected that these were members of SOSCO, they were singing intimidating songs.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you.
Did they just - they sang walking past the house where you were, they didn't do anything?
MR MPHORENG: They sang, passed, and went back and sang, passed, and went back and we just ignored them because we were cleaning.
MR TLOUBATLA: So in other words they were going up and down the street in front of this house?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, they were singing up and down.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you recall perhaps how many times they went up and down the street?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember how many times but it was a few times, I can't remember whether it was five or six times but I do remember they were singing up and down.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay, then you were there, you were cleaning and ultimately what transpired?
MR MPHORENG: After cleaning I did not leave for Orlando, I remained behind. During the day comrade Kani and comrade Ernest went to Orlando, I think they were going to wash and after 30 minutes or 45 minutes after they had left they came back with certain boys who were in the car.
When they arrived with these boys in the house I managed to identify that these boys were among a group of boys singing intimidating songs.
MR TLOUBATLA: When they came back, who came back and with how many boys was he?
MR MPHORENG: If I remember well, there were six in number.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then who was travelling with those boys?
MR MPHORENG: They were with comrade Pitso, comrade Joey, comrade Kani and comrade Jeff.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. Then they arrived there, you are at the house and then what happened?
MR MALAN: Sorry, were all six of them with the four comrades in one car?
MR MPHORENG: They used two cars.
ADV BOSMAN: How did you identify them as having been part of the group that sang the intimidating songs?
MR MPHORENG: While we were busy cleaning I went out now and then because it was scary because AZAPO and UDF were fighting. If you saw a group of people you would not rest and I identified them, I saw them, that they were in the group of people singing.
ADV BOSMAN: How big was the group that was singing?
MR MPHORENG: In 1986 during the conflicts, the youths, the school children were the most involved in the conflict, now the people who were singing were my age.
ADV BOSMAN: No but I don't mean their size I mean how many people were singing in that group, how many people were in the group?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned earlier on that there might have been 15 to 20, I'm not sure about the exact number.
ADV BOSMAN: So how did you distinguish these six people, on what did you distinguish them?
MR MPHORENG: The six suited the description of the people I saw.
ADV BOSMAN: But what were the distinguishing factors, what was special about them that you remembered these six out of twenty people?
MR MALAN: If I may just add on here, give us the description of the six people then.
MR MPHORENG: You would normally identify a person by the kind of clothes, that helps a lot in identifying. If a person is wearing a red jersey ...[intervention]
MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng, I asked you a specific question please, I asked you to give us a description of these people, not on how one would normally identify people. The question that Advocate Bosman put to you was: "How did you identify these six amongst the 15 or 20"? Your answer was: they fitted the description of the people you saw, now we want to know why did you know that they were there? What did you see on them, was it their faces, was it their clothes, if it's there clothes, what was the clothes, how did you know that those six were among the 15?
MR MPHORENG: I have problems as to how I identified them exactly but what happened was that these boys, these six boys who were in the company of our comrades were among a group of the boys singing intimidating songs.
ADV SIGODI: I just want clarity on this aspect. In your response you said that they fitted the description, were they described to you or did you see them, did you identify them?
MR MPHORENG: Nobody identified them to me, I saw them myself.
ADV SIGODI: So when they were brought to you, did you see the people you had seen or did somebody describe them to you, because the word that was used by the interpreter was that they were described, they fitted the description. I just want to clarify the interpretation between the word: "description" and: "identification".
MR MPHORENG: Nobody told me that it was them, I saw them myself.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, I understand you perfectly but the problem is that the confusion came because you yourself Mr Mphoreng, used to the wrong words to express yourself. In your own language you said: "basuti description", you said so instead of simply: ...[no translation]
I don't know why you used that word, when in fact what you meant simply that they looked like the same people who passed on earlier on. You must be careful in using words because they can cause a unnecessary confusion.
MR MPHORENG: Yes, Judge, I agree with you, I should have used the word: "They were like those I saw in the group".
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng, these people were brought to you there and then can you just go on from there, what happened, where did you take them to, what did you do with them?
MR MPHORENG: They were six and we split them in two groups, three were taken to the one room and three were taken to the other room and thereafter we started with the interrogation. I was personally involved in the interrogation.
MR TLOUBATLA: I want you to give us a detailed description of how you went about interrogating them, that is particularly yourself. How did you go about interrogating them?
MR MPHORENG: I said earlier on that I strongly suspected that these boys were members of SOSCO, now when we interrogated them I was actually confirming my suspicion. This is how we interrogated them: I severely assaulted them. If I remember very well I was using hangers(?), I was using bottles, I was kicking them, I was beating them with my fists.
During the interrogation I observed that two of these boys had UDF T-shirts on, one of the T-shirts was printed: RMC, which is Release Mandela Campaign, the other T-shirt was UDF. As I was busy with one of them I got the information that yes, indeed they were members of SOSCO and they had been instructed that members of AZAPO are the enemies and they must be killed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did they, during that interrogation, did they mention who gave them such instructions to assault members of AZAPO?
MR MPHORENG: One of the victims in the group that I interrogated mentioned that Masichaba - I think her surname was Luate, Masichaba was a prominent member of the UDF, now one of the boys informed me that Masichaba told them that members of AZAPO are not right, they just need to be killed. That is the information that I got during the interrogation.
MR TLOUBATLA: Would you agree with me that because of the pressure, the assaults that you were inflicting on them, the answers might not necessarily have been correct but they had said to please you as the interrogators?
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned that there was a conflict between AZAPO and UDF, we were not fighting as individuals and that is why these members of UDF, when they got hold of AZAPO they killed him. An example is that of Martin Mohau, they killed him just because he was a member of AZAPO and the same applies to Sipho Khomezulu.
MR MALAN: Will you please answer the question that was put to you.
Will you repeat that question please Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Would you agree with me that because of the pressure that you had exerted on these boys, some of the answers that they gave you may not necessarily have been true but they were just simply said in order to try and appease you as the interrogators? In other words, some sort of confession through force might not necessarily be true. Do you agree with me on that?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, I fully agree with you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you. And then - right, you interrogated them, you assaulted them and then what happened thereafter?
MR MPHORENG: I assaulted them with hangers and bottles and as I was busy one of the victims names Oscar confirmed that they were members of SOSCO and that they received an order from Masichaba Luarte that members of AZAPO were enemies.
MR TLOUBATLA: Who was with you during this interrogation of these boys?
MR MPHORENG: I was with comrade Nani Kani, I was with comrade Kabelo and Jeff was also present.
MR TLOUBATLA: It was just the three of you in the whole house all the time?
MR MPHORENG: It was not the three of us, I've mentioned the people who were with me in the room. Remember we split in two groups, the three victims were in this room where I was and the other three in the other room.
MR TLOUBATLA: What I want to know is, in total - that is the people that you would regard as your comrades who were assisting you in interrogating these people, who else was there and how many people were there?
MR MPHORENG: The people who were with me when we interrogated these comrades were myself, Kabelo, Jeff, Pitso, Kani and Joey.
MR TLOUBATLA: So you proceeded to interrogated them and until when did you interrogate these people?
MR MPHORENG: We interrogated them for almost the whole afternoon until it was getting dark.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. What happened when it became dark?
MR MPHORENG: Comrade Sam Siyema arrived together with comrade Tammy Moglegwa. These two comrades were prominent leaders of our organisation. When they arrived we briefed them about the situation and after briefing them an order was issued out, they said: "Yes, we hear your report, now must happen is that these boys be killed". What I'm trying to say it, I received an order from the two comrades at that time.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just to clear something, if my memory serves me well, I thought you mentioned that when you were called to Jeff's house you and arrived there you found Tammy and Sam or something like that, I don't know whether I was correct.
MR MPHORENG: Yes, you read me perfectly well, it was in the morning when I found comrade Tammy and comrade Sam but they left during the day and they came just towards sunset.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the Pitso that you mentioned, is that the applicant?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.
CHAIRPERSON: That is - what did you say about him? When you were asked as to who was present during the interrogation, you said something like you were divided into two groups and then you mentioned some names and you mentioned him. I don't quite follow in what context you mentioned him.
MR MPHORENG: The reason why I mention his name is that he was in the same yard where the interrogation took place.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. He was not present during the interrogation, isn't that what you said?
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned already that we separated and went in two rooms, I did not see him in the room where I was.
CHAIRPERSON: Now why are you giving us his name? If he was not part of the interrogation why are you giving us his name?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned his name because when these boys were caught up in Orlando East one of the cars that was used was his.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll check the record.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
So when Sam and Tammy arrived, what happened, that is in the evening now?
CHAIRPERSON: You briefed them and later they said that these people must be killed and you are saying that, you say they said to you: "Yes, we hear you but these boys must be killed" and you said that for that reason that is why you say that you received an order from the two comrades to kill, is that what you are saying?
MR MPHORENG: I said an order was taken out by comrade Tammy and comrade Sam, these are the two comrades who arrived when it was getting dark. They were prominent leaders of the organisation and we briefed them as to what happened during the day. We told them about the information that we got out of the victims and it was then that an order was issued out that these people be killed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just to deviate slightly, in your application or in your statement wherein you apply for amnesty for the killing of the security guard - I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I just want to refer to something ...[intervention]
MR MALAN: The loose statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Why are we moving to something else now?
MR TLOUBATLA: Now I just wanted to refer to something specific Mr Chairman, I'll leave it out for the moment. I can't find that statement anyway.
At B you said that comrade Tammy and comrade Sam gave you an order to kill these people and then what happened thereafter, what did you do? What was the next action that you took?
MR MPHORENG: After comrade Tammy and comrade Sam gave out an order we implemented the order. The order was that these members of SOSCO be loaded into the boots of the cars and kill them thereafter.
We took them and we went to Showela. I was involved and I had a firearm. When we arrived at Showela I had Oscar with me and I grabbed him from behind by his belt. We arrived in an open veld in Showela and I implemented the order, I shot Oscar.
MR TLOUBATLA: You mentioned that you grabbed Oscar by the belt, shot him and so on, did you know these boys before? How did you know that the person you were grabbing by his belt was Oscar? Did you know these boys before?
MR MPHORENG: I did not know him before but during the interrogation his name cropped up because I was actually dealing with him, that's how I knew it was Oscar. I did not know him before, it was only during the interrogation that I got to know him.
MR TLOUBATLA: Before you went to Showela - I want your role, the role that you played, how did you transport these people, how did you manage to get them into the cars?
MR MPHORENG: It was clear after the order was issued out, that we had to force them. We just packed them into the boot and we drove to Showela.
MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question. You can literally pick a person up and dump them in a boot, alternatively you can give him an instruction: "Get into the boot", what I want to know is, how did you do that and you personally, did you perhaps stand back and keep quiet and somebody ordered them to go into the cars? What was your role in getting these people into the boots of the cars?
MR MPHORENG: I grabbed Oscar by his belt from behind and I pushed him and roughly pushed him into the boot, others did the same.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, ...[intervention]
ADV SIGODI: Do you remember how long this interrogation took?
MR MPHORENG: It took a long time. If I remember, I think they arrived at about 3 p.m. at Jeff's place until it was dark.
ADV BOSMAN: Why did it take so long to interrogate them? I mean, all you wanted to know was whether they were members of SOSCO and who gave the instructions.
MR MPHORENG: It took time to interrogate them because they did not confess quickly. One other thing is that we were waiting for an instruction from above, from the senior members of the organisation as to yes, we have information from these people, they confirm that they are members of SOSCO, what should be the next step then, that is why it took so long.
ADV SIGODI: And where were the other people, I mean in which room were they in the house, the other three?
MR MPHORENG: I'm not sure as to the measurements but Jeff's house was an ordinary four roomed house but it wasn't a long distance, it was just a short distance.
ADV SIGODI: So they were in the next room?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
ADV SIGODI: And you were busy assaulting them in one room?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, the interrogation carried on even in the other room.
ADV SIGODI: Were they screaming?
MR MPHORENG: If I remember well, they did not scream.
ADV SIGODI: Did you hear screams from the other room?
MR MPHORENG: I did not hear screams from the other room.
ADV SIGODI: And how badly injured were they when you took them into the boot of the car?
MR MPHORENG: They were badly injured because we interrogated them for a long time with bottles, with hangers, those are the things that I used.
ADV SIGODI: But they did not scream?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember Chairperson, whether they screamed or they did not scream but there is a probability that they screamed because we were interrogating them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Alright. From - okay, even before we get there, what I want to know is, what was the need for you to interrogate them? I mean they had been picked up, you say you were sure that they looked like the people you saw during the course of the day walking up and down, singing songs, what was the need, can you perhaps explain? What was the need for you to interrogate them any further, why didn't you just simply execute them?
MR MPHORENG: The reason to interrogate them was that during the morning I had a strong suspicion that they were members of SOSCO because they were singing intimidating songs, intimidating and belittling our organisation but at the time I did not have facts that they were members of SOSCO.
Now with the interrogation I was trying to confirm my suspicions and the information clearly came out during the interrogation that they were members of SOSCO and one other point, some of them had T-shirts of Release Mandela Campaign and the UDF T-shirts. Two of the SOSCO members in the room where I was, one had a UDF T-shirt and the other one an RMC T-shirt.
MR TLOUBATLA: If these boys had told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO or so on, what would you have done after having assaulted them?
CHAIRPERSON: Well sorry, maybe they did. Didn't they tell you at some stage that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO?
MR MPHORENG: At the beginning of the interrogation they said they were not members but as the interrogation went along they confirmed that they were members of SOSCO.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we can get to the next stage of Mr Tloubatla's question. When they told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO, what did you do?
MR MPHORENG: I think our enemy was clear and it was a general knowledge that the UDF was fighting with AZAPO. Now the fight was between the members of the UDF and the members of AZAPO. We were not only fighting ordinary members of the community, we were fighting members of UDF as AZAPO.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether the interpretation could be inaccurate but I thought I asked you: "When they told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO, what was your reaction, what did you do"?
MR MPHORENG: When the interrogation began and they told us they were not members of SOSCO, we did not agree with them because at that time we had already seen that some of them had T-shirts aligned to the UDF which was an organisation we were fighting.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, I didn't ask you whether you agreed with them, I asked you - and this is for the third time, I asked you: "What did you do, if anything"?
MR MPHORENG: We harshly interrogated them and we assaulted them.
CHAIRPERSON: Why, why did you assault them? I mean they tell you: "We are not members of the UDF or SOSCO, why do you assault them"
MR MPHORENG: The reason for us to assault them was because they were not telling us the truth, it was clear that they were lying because during those days you did not just wear an AZAPO T-shirt if you were not a member of AZAPO, you would not put on a UDF T-shirt if you were not a member of the UDF.
ADV BOSMAN: Were you not more concerned with the issue of whether they were members of SOSCO? It seemed as though you were more interested in identifying them as SOSCO member, is that not so? That is what I gathered.
MR MPHORENG: We were more concerned with whether they were members of the UDF which was aligned to SOSCO.
ADV BOSMAN: Then why did you assault the people who were wearing UDF T-shirts?
MR MPHORENG: The motivation for the interrogation was that in the morning these boys sang intimidating songs and they belittled our organisation. Now they were found in Orlando in the vicinity of some of our comrades and they released the information that they were going to reconnoitre the houses of some of our comrades so that they can be attacks that evening.
In the interrogation they mentioned that the reason for going to Orlando was to reconnoitre the area to identify houses so that in the evening they can be attacked. Parents were being killed, they were being harassed because their children belonged to AZAPO.
ADV BOSMAN: I don't really follow you now Mr Mphoreng, exactly why did you assault them? First I got the impression, and I may be wrong, but I got the impression you were assaulting them because they were SOSCO members, you wanted the to acknowledge that they were SOSCO members, then you indicated no, you wanted them to acknowledge that they were UDF members and I asked you then: "You knew they were UDF members, some of them, because they were wearing the T-shirts, why did you assault them", now I get the impression you were assaulting them because you wanted to know about their indication that they were reconnoitring to identify house to attack. Could you just clarify this, I don't follow.
MR MPHORENG: One of the reasons to interrogate them, we wanted to know exactly who gave them orders to burn our homes and to kill our leaders, we were not just assaulting them. That the members of the UDF was not the only reason for the interrogation, we also wanted to know who issued out orders, who sent them to kill our members of burn homes of members of our organisation.
ADV SIGODI: Did you ask them if they were responsible for burning Jeff's house?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, we asked them.
ADV SIGODI: And what was the response?
MR MPHORENG: The information that we got from Oscar is that he was present when Jeff's house was petrol-bombed.
MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng, Advocate Bosman put the three answers to you which you gave at various stages, you say one of the reason that you gave for the interrogation and the assaults was that they released information on the reconnaissance in the area to those comrades of yours that brought them in, is that correct?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR MALAN: Now, if they were already have given to your comrades bringing them in, the information that they were doing these reconnaissance trips, why would they have to be assaulted in order to admit that are of UDF? Why would they deny the UDF or the SOSCO ties if they before that already admitted to reconnoitring for the purposes of bringing attacks to the homes of comrades?
MR MPHORENG: According to us, that information was insufficient, we wanted to know exactly who sent them, who sent them to attack members of AZAPO, to burn down homes of AZAPO members.
MR MALAN: Let me try this again. You say they voluntarily gave the information that they were on these reconnaissance trips but at the same time they had to be assaulted and beaten in order to admit that they were of the UDF, that they were affiliated to UDF?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, I wonder whether I should not object to that.
MR MALAN: I'm trying to find out if you could help me, if I understand it incorrectly then please help Mr Tloubatla.
MR TLOUBATLA: I don't think the word voluntarily was used, I don't know whether it makes any difference.
MR MALAN: No, sorry, let me withdraw the word voluntarily indeed ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: It makes a lot of difference.
MR MALAN: That wasn't used but what was indeed, evidence was given if I understood that correctly, and the witness can correct me if I'm wrong, that one of the reasons for the interrogation was that they released information on these reconnaissance activities to the comrades that brought them into the house even before they were interrogated and it was to get further information on that that they were interrogated. That was one of the reasons advanced to Advocate Bosman on here question.
Now my question is, despite divulging this to the comrades that brought them there, this is before any assault as I understand it, why do they now suddenly deny even membership or affiliation to UDF and that acknowledgement, that confession has to be beaten out of them - to follow your own questioning at an earlier stage Mr Tloubatla.
MR MPHORENG: All the information that we got from members of the SOSCO was retrieved during the interrogation. As a member of AZAPO I disbelieved that information, I felt that it was insufficient, we wanted to know exactly where the orders came from, we wanted to know who sent them, we wanted to know why they were executing that.
MR MALAN: Did they tell you?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, they told us.
MR MALAN: Will you share that with us please?
MR MPHORENG: They mentioned Masichaba's name who was a prominent UDF leader, she lived in that area.
MR MALAN: Was that the only name?
MR MPHORENG: That is the name I clearly remember.
MR MALAN: Were there no other names?
MR MPHORENG: I only remember the name of Masichaba, I don't know whether in the other group names were mentioned.
MR MALAN: Did they admit to having burnt the home that you were cleaning up after the bombing?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, they agreed.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?
MR MPHORENG: They agreed that they were present when Jeff's house was petrol-bombed.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not what you said a short while ago, you said only Oscar, you said Oscar is the one who admitted that the was present.
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned Oscar's name because he is the one I interrogated a lot.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you know it's not the same thing. If you say Oscar admitted, it's not the same thing as saying that, as the answer that you have just given now. You must listen to yourself when you give evidence.
I think maybe we could adjourn here.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
