Amnesty Hearings

ADV SIGODI: Will you testify in English or Xhosa or Zulu?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: For the benefit of the interpreters, in what language are you going to testify Mr Thandakubona?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I'm going to use (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I am a Xhosa who grew up around here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm just asking you because I don't want later with a situation where there is some argument as to what precisely you said, whether you meant it or you did not mean it. We want you to use the language that you best command and having said that we leave that to you to decide which language you want to use, but use the language that you best command to avoid problems later on. Very well then. Mr Tloubatla here again this applicant had made an application in respect of the murder of a security guard and likewise we will stand down his application in respect of that particular incident, we will stand it down indefinitely for the same reasons as we've already mentioned and bearing in mind again the fact that a differently constituted committee may hear his application in respect of that particular incident so we want to leave it neatly out of the present proceedings. What are your full names?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I am Mxolisi Ernest Thandakubona.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thandakubona is it true that you have applied for amnesty for the killing of some four boys on the 1st of August 1986 and the attempted killing of another two?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I was present.

MR TLOUBATLA: I am going to concentrate on the events of the day, on that particular day. It is common cause that you had a comrade by the name of Jefferson Lingani. Is that so?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: And that his house was either damaged or burnt, whatever but that is also common cause that something had happened to his house. Is that so?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: At what time did you know that Mr Lingani's house had been damaged?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I was sleeping with comrade Ghani (?) that day at one of the houses that used to be our hideout but the comrades knew what places were used as hideouts. Jeff came to us, woke us up at dawn, around 3 or 4 in the morning. He knocked at the door and we refused to wake up, we hid ourselves because we were tired and we did not want to leave at the time. Jeff then left. He went to other places to ask for other people.

MR TLOUBATLA: There is something that is not amusing, but sort of you know, it's attracting my attention, you keep on taking off your hat. Did you have to leave by hiding yourselves all the time, you're talking of a hideout?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We were leading a kind of life of hiding out because we were fleeing from the police and the UDF members. The UDF was of course the opposite camp that was fighting us.

MR TLOUBATLA: So did your comrade Jefferson come back later and what time was that when he came back?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes Jeff did come back. It was round about half past eight, nine o'clock. We had just come back from buying breakfast at the shop and when we entered the gate he was just arriving himself as well. We did not cook the breakfast, we got into the car and we went to his place to assess the damage.

MR TLOUBATLA: How many of you left that hideout of yours to go to Jefferson's place?

MR THANDAKUBONA: It was myself, Ghani and Jeff, that was when we were going to his place.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then on your arrival at Jeff's place, who did you find there?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived I saw people like Kabelo, Dick, Vayli was also present, Mklana as well. Those are the people we found when we arrived. I may have forgotten other but I am sure about these ones. These are the ones that we found when we arrived.

MR TLOUBATLA: So it was quite a number of your comrades at Jeff's place, it was quite a sizeable number?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes there were several comrades that I found there, they were trying to help by cleaning and establish how much damage has been caused and we were guarding because we feared that the people might come back during the day.

MR TLOUBATLA: I see also, that is in page 21 that is page 1 of your application, you say on the second paragraph, the second sentence you say: "It started when comrade Jefferson Lingani's house, who was a member of AZAPO, was petrol bombed for the second time". In fact I think it's for the first time that we hear that the same house was petrol bombed for the second time?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Would you please refer me to the paragraph, what page is it on? I'm referring to the paragraph that you've just read.

MR TLOUBATLA: In the bundle it's page 21 but otherwise it's page 1 of your application, the second paragraph, the second sentence.

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct. I concur with what I have written here because you know Jeff was a prominent member of AZAPO, prominent leader, he was well known he could not hide himself, he was within the Soweto Eleven that was arrested during the 1976 riots and he resided in the UDF area. The area in which he resided was predominantly UDF and that was not for the first time that he was attacked, he was attacked for the first time but nothing happened. He reported the matter and this was for the second time that he was attacked and his house was burnt, that's when he called for help from his comrades.

MR TLOUBATLA: Before this particular incident, was Jeff's house petrol bombed, how long before this particular incident?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I would not know exactly the month but it was not something that had happened a long time ago, it was around within three months I think. Three months had not lapsed when this second attack was launched.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, you arrived there and then with the other comrades, what did you keep yourselves busy doing there after arriving at Jeff's place?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We were cleaning the house, cleaning up the broken glasses and making sure that the place was clean, that is what we did at the time and guard the place so that in the event of these people coming back we would be there.

MR TLOUBATLA: Is there anything that happened during the course of the day whilst you were there that you can perhaps tell us?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes something did happen. As we were busy cleaning and moving around people were walking past and singing and their songs were not the kind of happy songs, they were actually communicating to us at the time. The kind of songs sung and the T-shirts worn were the kind of songs and T-shirts that would identify one's political stance and therefore one would identify them as SOSCO or UDF.

MR TLOUBATLA: You heard the other co-applicants when they were testifying. Are you saying that they just passed there, they walked past the house and then was it the end?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes they walked past singing and they came back again. It was an up and down movement that happened several times whilst we were still there. We ignored them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Then, except that particular incident of these people singing up and down, then what happened thereafter?

MR THANDAKUBONA: After that I would say during the day around past two to three, I indicated to Ghani that I wanted to go and take a bath. We requested Jeff and he said no let's wait and take guard and we requested him that he release us and he then offered to take us home so that we could take and bath and he would wait for us. When we left Orlando West we took the direction towards the Orlando stadium, driving under the bridge. We took a right towards the police station and we would take our left at the library and on turning at the turnoff Jeff indicated that he had forgotten a paper and he made a U-turn back towards the police station to buy a newspaper and before he parked his car and he said: "Here are the boys." and on looking I could identify some of these boys. We bought the newspaper, we saw these boys walking up towards the station and we followed them. They took a passage, they were talking and pointing and when they approached nine and eleven, that is nine hundreds and eleven hundreds numbers in Orlando, we stopped them ... (intervention)

MR BRINK: Chairman I'm sorry to interrupt. I wonder if my learned friend can just get his witness to get to the point. I don't think it really matters which nine hundred or eleven hundred rows and buying newspapers and things, quite irrelevant with respect, can we get to the point?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that Mr Thandakubona we are here especially to hear about the manner in killing of the certain six people, we're not so much here about the newspapers and the buying of newspapers, we're here about the killing and assault of six people. Let's talk about that, that which we are here for. You understand the point? Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thandakubona then at what stage did you intercept this youths?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Around three in the afternoon.

MR TLOUBATLA: The place, where was it?

MR THANDAKUBONA: It was at the passage.

MR TLOUBATLA: And after you intercepted them?

MR THANDAKUBONA: After stopping them Ghani remained behind with a gun, guarding them, Jeff and myself went to pick up comrade Pitso (?) and on arrival we indicated to comrade Pitso that we had now apprehended the boys. We started his vehicle and we went to eleven and we brought them into the two vehicles and we drove them to Jeff's house in Orlando West.

MR TLOUBATLA: What time was it when you arrived now back at Jeff's place?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I didn't have a watch but I think it was around the same time, three or past three but I cannot commit myself to the exactness of the time.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then after arriving there can you tell us what did you do on arriving there? You in particular and then you can tell us about the others, but basically we want you activities after this boys were brought into that house.

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived we got out of the vehicle and went into the house and the damage was indicated to them and the interrogation started. We wanted to know ... (intervention)

MR TLOUBATLA: Where did the interrogation start, where did you do it. You heard questions from Mr Ameen, the victim's lawyer saying that people ... (intervention)

MR THANDAKUBONA: The interrogation started in the kitchen.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then you also heard that they was made to undress and then left naked and then assaulted at the - would you confirm that, is that what happened, where they undressed, all of them?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I do not remember anybody naked but yes they were beaten up. I do not remember anybody being undressed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, just tell us then you started assaulting them in the kitchen and then where did you go to - as it is said that you went into the bedrooms, is that what happened?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I was not stuck to one room in which the interrogation was taking place. There was one person whom I was beating in the kitchen. I went to another bedroom and I was moving between the bedrooms beating them up, assaulting them, that's how I can put it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you recall any specific weapons that you used when you were assaulting this boys. Any specific weapons that you specifically used when you were assaulting the boys?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I used my bear hands mostly, fists and (indistinct), kicking them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just out of interest, before I forgot this point, how old were you then at that time?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I was 20 years old.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. So you never used any specific weapon, the pliers, a hammer, an axe, the part of a gun or anything, you just used your hands?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes if my memory still serves me well, I used my bear hands. I did not have a gun on that particular day.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then, until what time did you assault this boys and torture them?

MR THANDAKUBONA: They were assaulted for quite a long time. They were assaulted until dusk.

MR TLOUBATLA: Were they crying, asking for help and when you were assaulting them what specifically did you require them to do or to say?

CHAIRPERSON: You are asking a very compound question, were they crying, did they ask for help. What are you looking for? I think take it in instalments. Did they scream for help?

MR THANDAKUBONA: People in pain react, they cry. As their cries could not be heard by the immediate next door neighbours, the person next door did not know what was happening.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then as you were assualting them, what is it that you wanted them to do, what is it that you were asking them to do? In other words the reason for the assault.

MR THANDAKUBONA: First of all we assaulted them because we wanted to know who their leaders were. Immediately when we found a T-shirt associated with the UDF we confirmed that these are the people - we wanted to know who gave them instructions, that is why we assaulted them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng you mean that at that time you didn't know who were the leaders of the UDF, at that time. You say you asked them who were their leaders, didn't you know the leaders of the UDF at that time?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We knew prominent UDF leaders but we basically wanted to know who organised them in Orlando West and we also wanted to know where their camps were.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you wanted to know who their leaders were, if any, who had ordered them to do this thing. Is that what you're saying?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then ultimately just tell us what happened after you now, let's say now late just before you had to leave that house, what happened?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I will refer to myself. On that day I'd say during the weekend Kabelo's car broke down or - and in the evening we had to go and pick the car up. He had to use it. Kabelo and myself took Jeff's car, drove to town to pick up this other vehicle. We came back with the vehicle. Kabelo drove his Renault, went straight to Orlando West. I went to Orlando and I followed him to Orlando West and when I arrived the Chev had already gone, that is the first group. I came across comrade Sam at the door and I asked him what was happening now ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Please Mr Tloubatla try to control you witness then we can take notes and follow.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you, thank you Madam. Right you apparently went out with, with whom did you go out?

MR THANDAKUBONA: With Kabelo.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you later came back. You say that the Chevrolet had already left. Did I understand correctly?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct, that is when we came back from town, the Chevrolet has left already.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right and did you also, did you follow the Chevrolet and which car were you using and with whom were you when you followed the Chevrolet?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We were not following the Chevrolet. When we arrived it had already left. When I arrived there was this Renault Nine, the one that we had picked up from town and I was using Jeff's white vehicle.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. Right, let me rather put it this way. We have been told by you co-applicants that they went to Glen's place. What I want to know is did you ultimately get to Glen's place in Shawella?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did go to Glen's place in Shawella.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla just a little bit to be fair to the witness because later on it may be put to him that he didn't say certain things. Let him complete the picture he's trying to give us. He arrives from town - you arrived from town and I suppose you mean arriving, when you say you arrived in Orlando I assume you mean arriving at Jeff's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I can say I made a mistake, when I referred to Orlando I meant that I just made a turn at Orlando and proceeded to Jeff's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Arrived at Jeff's place?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Renault?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I was driving Jeff's Mazda at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. How many cars were there at Jeff's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: There was this one Renault, the one that we had just picked up from the garage in town.

CHAIRPERSON: The Chevrolet had already left at the time with three others who were in the boot?

MR THANDAKUBONA: The last thing, what about the boot?

CHAIRPERSON: The Chevrolet had already left with three boys who were in the boot?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived we were told that the Chevrolet had already gone to Shawella and we too should follow.

CHAIRPERSON: Follow in which car?

MR THANDAKUBONA: They were loaded into Renault Nine, accompanied by comrade Sam, I don't know who else was present. I remained behind and followed in Jeff's Mazda and in the company of Jeff himself and this Mazda did not have any one of these victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You Mr Thandakubona?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes myself and Jeff left his house for Shawella in his Mazda.

CHAIRPERSON: The Mazda then followed the Chev or at least drove to Shawella?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other three boys, you say they were in the boot of the Renault.

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes if I still remember very well, they were loaded into the boot of the Renault. I was there at the time, I did see them being loaded into the boot of the Renault.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you drove to Shawella and you arrived at Shawella I believe?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes we did arrive at Shawella.

CHAIRPERSON: Take it further from there, what happened there.

MR THANDAKUBONA: We found the Chevrolet parked outside and the Renault had also arrived. We were expected to get into the house and establish what was happening. Indeed we went into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Just take it slow just to allow us to make notes and so on but give us the details, they're quite all right but just take it a bit slower.

MR THANDAKUBONA: Okay.

MR MALAN: Sorry, was this now Jeff's house at Shawella?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No.

MR MALAN: Which house, you went into what house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: That is Glen's house.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright you arrived there and then ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I'm going to interrupt you, I'm sorry about that. I don't understand how can three people have been in the boot of a Renault Nine?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I don't know Chairperson. They fitted well in the boot, there was nothing they could do.

CHAIRPERSON: If my knowledge of vehicles doesn't let me down, it's a very small car surely?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes, the boot of the Renault Nine is spacious, a little spacious because it proceeds inwards. There was nothing the boys could have done, they had to fit into the boot.

CHAIRPERSON: You then went to Glen's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: That's correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, when you arrived at Glen's house in Shawella, do you recall who you followed there?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I still remember very well. People that I saw there on arrival were Glen, the owner of the house, his friend, Madrix, that's his name and he was with his girlfriend, comrade Pitso was also present, comrade Ghani as well. The whole group from Orlando West was now at Glen's house now everything was being conducted at Glen's house.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then what is it - anything specific that you discussed, that is let's say with the group or something that was said to you?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we left Orlando West I had knowledge already because comrade Sam had already told me that these boys were going to be killed. When we arrived at Shawella I already had that knowledge except to say I didn't know what spot they were going to be killed at. When it was being discussed as to the killing spot, Jeff requested me to accompany him to Dlamini where guns had to be fetched from other comrades so that we should be in the position to defend ourselves, after the killing, in the event of these people coming back to attack us. We indeed went for these other guns, we could not find them, the people that we wanted were not there and then we went back into the house and on arrival, I wanted to know what the next step would be and it was indicated that everything was finalised. I then understood that that meant that the boys had now been killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Where were the boys were at this stage, when all this was taking place, the victims.

MR THANDAKUBONA: What are you referring to?

ADV BOSMAN: When you came back where were the boys, did you see them, the victims?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Are you referring - are you asking in which room of Glen's house these boys were, in the boot of the car or where. Would you please explain?

ADV BOSMAN: ... (inaudible) clear to me, according to your evidence, whether they got out of the cars, whether they were taken out of the boot?

MR THANDAKUBONA: They were taken out of the boot into the house.

ADV BOSMAN: ... (inaudible)

MR THANDAKUBONA: I think I remember, that is if I am correct, I think we had already blindfolded them from Jeff's house into the boot at Jeff's house, the reason being that we did not want them to know where they were or where they were being taken to.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you left with Jeff to go to Dlamini, they were still blindfolded?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I can testify that I did see one of them lying down being asked the final questions, his eyes still blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say when you came back from Dlamini with Jeff, after you failed to find the guns, when you came back you were told that everything had been done and finished with and to you and then you understood that to mean that the boys had already been killed?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Was everybody still there at Glen's house? I mean when you were told that now the mission has been accomplished, the boys had been killed.

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes they were still present. We arrived at the time when everything had been done. When we arrived I thought that we were still going to kill the boys but I learned that everything had been done, the boys had now been killed.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then from there, what happened, where did you go?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We then dispersed. It was indicated that now that we had accomplished our mission we dispersed to our respective places. We left the Chevrolet behind because it could not move anymore. We tool the Renault and the Mazda, we went to Kabelo's place to establish or check out as to whether his home has been attacked or not and later on we were dropped off at Orlando and that was now at night.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think, okay just one last thing. Did you also go into exile after this incident.

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I went to exile with my very same co-applicants, my comrades.

MR TLOUBATLA: Any specific thing that you were doing, were you part of the organisation and what were you doing and when did you come back?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we left the country we were actually were collected by a comrade at Tamee (indistinct) in Dlamini, we went to Botswana and we went to a refugee camp and that is where found other comrades at the camp. I was trained on certain military activities and I ended up being commander of that very same camp. At that very same time I had been shot in another place, isolated from this incident, and I then went to Zimbabwe where medical treatment could be given to me properly, right up to the time when Samora Michelle died.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not interested (indistinct), we are not getting there. Did you then come back into the country at some point?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I came back in 1994 in August.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think that will be all from me. I don't have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, half past nine.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION ON 10 JUNE 1998 - DAY 3

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thandakubona you testified yesterday that you were not part of the group of people who had accosted the six youths. Is that so?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR AMEEN: When was the first time that you saw these six youths on that day?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I saw them for the first time when they were walking up and down singing.

MR AMEEN: And how did you identify them?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I was able to identify them because of the clothes they were wearing. I will try to remember. I recognised people who were wearing grey flannel school uniform and there was one who was wearing something like a brand (indistinct) trousers, white shirts, that's how I can remember that these were the people that we saw at Orlando West earlier on.

MR AMEEN: So, there has been testimony earlier by your co-applicants that some of these youths were wearing T-shirts. Do you remember that?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I do remember that.

MR AMEEN: Then why didn't you mention it just now when I asked you what they were wearing?

MR THANDAKUBONA: You will remember that they had worn the T-shirts underneath and a shirt on top, not that they were just wearing the T-shirts.

MR AMEEN: So if they were wearing these T-shirts under their shirts, you could not have seen them as they were walking up and down, you could not have seen the T-shirts that they were wearing because they would have been covered with their shirts and their blazers probably?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR AMEEN: So the evidence given earlier by your two co-applicants that they recognised these youths by the T-shirts they were wearing is incorrect?

MR THANDAKUBONA: It is true, you see the T-shirt story comes when we were in the house.

MR AMEEN: But the point - when these youths were allegedly marching up and down in front of Jeff Lingani's house?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether anybody said that, that they identified them by their T-shirts which they had been seen wearing during the time when they were going up and down the street?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman that is my impression.

CHAIRPERSON: I do recall that they said that amongst the people who were singing and going up and down the street, some of them had some T-shirts but I do not recall of a piece of evidence which says precisely these six people were also identified because at the time when they were going up and down the street they themselves, the six, to also were having T-shirts. It isn't that - there is no such evidence. Evidence that we have linking them with the T-shirts - what the evidence which says they had T-shirts on was the evidence which said they had T-shirts on, they discovered they had some T-shirts on while they were in the house, the T-shirts were worn inside the shirts.

MR AMEEN: Alright thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to say to you there is evidence that among the people who were going up and down the street, there were people who had T-shirts on, but the evidence did not go so far as to say precisely the six were also seen having T-shirts while they were going up and down the street.

MR AMEEN: Okay. Now ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible). Yes Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you. Now going back to the point where these youths were accosted. You testified that you were not present. The two survivors that are here today who will give evidence later on will say that you were among the three people who accosted them and took them to two cars parked two streets away. That they were put into those cars under gunpoint and that they were taken to Jeff Lingani's house or to a house which turned out to be Jeff Lingani's house. I'm just putting that to you.

MR THANDAKUBONA: It is true that I was present at the time when they were apprehended for the first time and taken into these two vehicles. We took them to Jeff's house. I concur with that, we also had a gun.

MR AMEEN: And they were taken under gunpoint?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes they had already seen that we had a gun so they would not try to flee.

MR AMEEN: Now, you testified that you took part in the assaults on these six youths at Jeff Lingani's house and that you only used your palms, your fists and your feet, that you did not use any of the weapons which were at the house in the assault. I want to put it to you that the two survivors will say that you did assault them but not in the way that you described, that you did use those weapons that were there, the guns, the iron rod with which to assault them.

MR THANDAKUBONA: If you still remember very well I did indicate yesterday that as far as I remember, I was in the kitchen and the someone that I really did assault in the kitchen I went into another room, beat another one up and assaulted another one in another room, but most of the time I was using my bear hands and feet. I did not have a gun that day. It may have happened that I borrowed it from someone and used it to assault them.

MR AMEEN: So you are prepared to concede that you did use those weapons, if not all the time, at least some of the time.

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I would agree with that.

MR AMEEN: There was also evidence yesterday, not by you but by one of the co-applicants when it was put to him that a pliers was used on the private parts of these youths. You recall that evidence?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I do recall that evidence.

MR AMEEN: Can you tell this committee whether you were one of the people who used the pliers on the private parts of these youths?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I did not use a pair of pliers but I know that one of us did use a pliers.

MR AMEEN: Did you see the pliers being used?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did see him use it.

MR AMEEN: Can you describe to the court how it was done? Sorry, to the committee.

MR THANDAKUBONA: He was actually doing something like if he was piercing him with the pliers. The victim has his clothes on, he had his pair of trousers on at the time.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry. Who did you see using the pliers?

MR THANDAKUBONA: It was comrade Motlana.

MR AMEEN: That is a reference to Mr Mphoreng?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's correct.

MR AMEEN: Right.

ADV SIGODI: Was he the only one who was using the pliers?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's the only person that I saw using the pliers at the time. As I have indicated before I was not stuck to one room, I was moving between the rooms assaulting people.

ADV SIGODI: How many pliers were there, was there only one pair of pliers?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I only saw one pliers.

MR AMEEN: I'm going to give you a description which my clients have given me of how the pliers were used and that description will include that you were one of the people that used the pliers. Now what they will say is that when they were given the old clothes they were given, with the old clothes, flexible curtain wiring with which to keep their trousers tied to their waists. Do you agree with that?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I have a problem with that because I did indicate yesterday that I do not remember seeing a naked person in the house. What clothes were taken off were only the shirts so we were able to see the T-shirts that they had worn beneath.

MR AMEEN: They will also say that once their trousers fell to the ground, after they were ordered to untie this wire, this curtain wire, they were restrained and pliers were applied to their private parts and as they screamed one or other of you would take over from the person applying the pressure and say: "This is not how it should be done", or words to that effect and then that person would take over applying pressure. Can you recall that?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I did not see that.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman if I can just note for the record that according to my clients they are not certain whether the third applicant was part of the group that actually fired shots at the spot where the four were killed and on that basis I'm going to stop my cross examination, I'm not going to put any further questions to him. There would be no further point in that. If I can just continue on the aspect of the motor cars that were involved in transporting them. You say that a Renault was used to transport three of the youths to comrade Glen's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR AMEEN: And you said that three of them were put into the boot of the Renault?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's what I said.

MR AMEEN: Now, what kind of Renault was this, was it a four door car or was it a five door hatchback?

MR THANDAKUBONA: It was a Renault 9 TSE, a sedan.

MR AMEEN: Alright. My clients will say that there was no Renault there, that they were taken to comrade Glen's house in a Chev and in a Mazda 323?

MR THANDAKUBONA: They are making a mistake because at the time on leaving the house to the boot, people were blindfolded and they could not therefore testify here that the car was not a Renault. I was able to see because I was not blindfolded. They did not see the Renault when we brought them in. We fetched the Renault from town during which time they were in the house and they could not have seen it when we arrived. They are making a mistake here.

MR AMEEN: And in what car were they taken from comrade Glen's house to the scene of the killing?

MR THANDAKUBONA: The one car I know to have been used, if I still remember very well was the very same Renault.

MR AMEEN: Okay.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ameen can I just come in here? Why were the victims blindfolded?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We did not want them to see where they were going.

ADV BOSMAN: But you had them in your power now Mr Thandakubona, you had guns, they were badly injured, on the evidence that was given here and you had them fully in your power. Could they have escaped?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I would say that under such circumstances this is what usually happens. One can do anything to a person to humiliate him because he is now subdued.

ADV BOSMAN: Am I understanding you correctly then that the blindfolding was part of humiliating them and not so much as to prevent them from seeing where you were going. Is that what you are saying?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No, both of these acts were actually such that they should not see where we were going and the second question is such that such things happen when people are under such circumstances.

ADV BOSMAN: My difficulty is Mr Thandakubona that my impression was that some of your co-applicants indicated that not all of them were blindfolded and you say they were all blindfolded and I don't understand the reason why because you had them in your power. It was not necessary to blindfold them. If you could just try and clarify?

MR THANDAKUBONA: In so far as the first question is concerned, as to the argument that my co-applicants are saying they were not blindfolded, I did indicate yesterday that when I arrived at the place the Chevrolet had already left with the first group. I am talking here about the group that left during my presence. The people who had remained behind were actually waiting for us to bring this other car from town.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know the Renault was used to take them to the scene where they were shot because you were not there, you had gone to Dlamini to go and look for guns?

MR THANDAKUBONA: The Mazda was not there and the Chevrolet was not used because it had a pressure plate problem and therefore it was not used to take them to the spot and the only car that was available was the Renault.

CHAIRPERSON: So actually, because the Renault was the only car left there which would have been mobile, for that reason you - it's your conclusion that they must have used the Renault?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No that's what the comrades told me when I came back, they indicated to me that the Renault was used to take them to the scene where they were shot.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, thank you.

MR AMEEN: While you were at comrade Glen's house can you recall one of the survivors sitting behind me, or escorting one of them to the toilet in comrade Glen's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Which one are you referring to?

MR AMEEN: I'm referring to Mr Kgase.

MR THANDAKUBONA: I think I still remember him from when we were still growing up, at the time I think we were still young. I saw him for the first time in Jeff's bedroom, he was in the main bedroom at Jeff's house ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt you please? I'm asking you whether in comrade Glen's house you escorted him to the toilet or not, yes or no?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No, I don't remember that.

MR AMEEN: Because that is what he will say, that you were the one who escorted him to the toilet, that he was not blindfolded at comrade Glen's house and that the two cars used to transport them to the scene of the killing were the Chev and the Mazda.

MR THANDAKUBONA: I might be making some mistakes somewhere, this happened a while ago, it's been long now since it happened. I can therefore undoubtedly testify that it is otherwise, but as far as I remember Jeff and myself had left to look for a gun in Dlamini and when we came back everything had been done, that is how I remember it.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt you? You said something in your evidence something which, if I understood you correctly, you conveyed that you grew up with Mr Kgase or known him while you were still young or something to that effect. Did I misunderstand you?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No we did not grow up together, I was seeing him actually for the first time that day. I was explaining that I remember him, I saw him that day, I was seeing him for the first time in Jeff's bedroom, I was just explaining how I met him for the first time now that I'm seeing him again today. We did not grow up together.

CHAIRPERSON: I need to understand that what you're actually conveying was that at that time the two of you were still young

and still growing up, not necessarily that you said that you grew up with him and I think it didn't come quite clearly to me, but anyway I understand you now.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman no further questions, that is it.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman. The note I have on your evidence in chief was that when you arrived at Glen's house, you became aware that these people were to be killed. Do I make a correct note or not?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I said when I heard for the first time that these people were going to be killed, I discovered this when I arrived at Jeff's place meeting him at the door. When we went to Glen's place I had this knowledge already.

MR BRINK: Do you know who gave the order that these people should be killed?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Comrade Sam told me when I arrived at Jeff's place.

MR BRINK: But you didn't take part in the planning of these murders?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No I did not take part in the planning.

MR BRINK: And apart from the torture of these men you were merely a passive participant, so to speak, in the further conduct of the operation?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I would not say I did not assault them as much because they were really injured that day, we assaulted them badly, I too was present. In some instances however I would not be there during the assault. This does not mean that I would not do it if I were present.

MR BRINK: Now I understand you're being frank enough to say you took part in the assaults, but you had absolutely nothing to do with the planning or the execution of the murders?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know how it came about that police arrested you, who gave your name to the police?

MR THANDAKUBONA: It was Jeff, he brought police where I was sleeping.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you then accused of having taken part in the murder?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We were charged, all of us equally.

ADV BOSMAN: With murder?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you not surprised because you hadn't participated in the murder?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we made our statements I indicated to the police but he indicated to me that I was telling a lie, I was going to testify in court and he then wrote down what charges he wrote.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know why Sam and Tamee's names were not mentioned to the police? Let me just put it differently. Do you know whether to whom you referred as comrade Sam and comrade Tamee, do you know whether their names were mentioned to the police?

MR THANDAKUBONA: We refused to give their names to the police, it was not easy to divulge such names to the police. These were prominent names in the organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: But all the other members who were not leaders, their names were mentioned. Is that right or can't you say?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Jeff was the first person to be arrested and then he gave these names to the police and we too were arrested and that was the end of it, we did not give the police any other name.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was, was there somebody in the name of Sam amongst you, other than Sam Siema. Was there another Sam?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No.

MR MALAN: Why was Sam and Tamee's name not given to the police but Glen's name indeed was given? Sorry I understand you

as saying that Sam and Tamee's name weren't given to the police because it wasn't easy to divulge the prominent members in the organisation. Is that what you said?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I am saying that we did not identify their hideout to the police.

MR MALAN: But you did identify Glen's place to the police?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Glen's name came up because the survivors had already indicated to the police that they were taken from Orlando West to Shawella where they were finally shot. The police wanted to know the one house to which we went to Shawella.

MR MALAN: But weren't they blindfolded according to your testimony?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I have indicated earlier on that the first car left with the first group and I do not know whether the first group was blindfolded or not but during my presence I still remember one person blindfolded from the house right into the boot of the car.

MR MALAN: But you were very adamant that Mr Kgase was blindfolded there that he couldn't have seen when he was taken to the house of Glen. Is that correct?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No not that he was blindfolded, I'm saying I did see someone blindfolded, that is if you still remember very well. I said I saw him for the first time in the bedroom during the day.

MR MALAN: Mr Ameen put it to you that he will give evidence that he was taken from Glen's house to the scene of the execution in the Renault, not in the Renault but in the Chev and the Mazda, they were taken in those two cars and you responded that he could not have seen because he was blindfolded. Isn't that correct?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No.

MR MALAN: Then let me just taken two other matters. The issue of the use of the Renault to take them to the scene where they were killed. Wasn't the Chev used to take them from Jeff's house to Glen's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes the Chevrolet was used from Jeff's place to Glen's place.

MR MALAN: And you gave evidence that it wasn't used from Glen's place to the scene of the killing because it had a problem with the pressure plate. Is that correct?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did say that, that they did not use the Chevrolet from Glen's place to the scene of murder.

MR MALAN: And then just one other question. On the evidence it's seems as if these youths were apprehended somewhere between two and three o'clock in the afternoon and that they were being kept and assaulted and tortured to somewhere between seven and eight, in evidence before us. That's on average about five hours, could be less but on all evidence it seems not be less than about three to four hours. All the time of which they were assaulted according to the evidence. Now why did this continue for so long?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I don't know. I think because there is an exaggeration of time here because I remember they arrived at Jeff's place at round about three in the afternoon and they then left for Shawella, not around seven, it was dusking, it was shortly after dusk. It was August at the time and the sun would set sooner than in summer. Yes they were assaulted for a long time, that's correct, we wanted information from them.

MR MALAN: And the information that you did get from them, when did you get it from them, early in the assault, late in the assault, in the middle of the assault. After you had the information did you keep on assaulting them?

MR THANDAKUBONA: If I still remember very well, before Kabelo and myself went to fetch the car in town the interrogation had already been completed and that was round about five in the afternoon. We had to rush to town because the closing time at the place where we were supposed to pick up the car was half past five.

MR MALAN: So are you saying that at five o'clock there was no further assault, since five o'clock till they were taken to comrade Glen's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When I left I think there was no assault going on but I would not testify as to what happened during my absence.

MR MALAN: Can you just briefly summarise for us. What information did you get form these youths and in what stage during the assault. What did you discover first, how soon, what did you discover last and when did you get that information?

MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived and I saw this UDF T-shirt so that I concluded that these are the people with whom we were at war and we then started to find out as to seeing that they are UDF and SOSCO members, who are these people giving them instructions to burn people's house, membership of AZAZIM and killing leaders of AZAPO. This is what we were trying to find out from the, who their leaders in their areas were. It took some time for them to finally give us the names of some of the people.

MR MALAN: So you did not get any information from them that they indeed did burn comrade Jeff's house, that they specifically were responsible for the burning?

MR THANDAKUBONA: I would not say that there's anyone who told me that, but comrade Motlana indicated to me that the one person he was assaulting did agree that he was the one involved in the burning of Jeff's house.

MR MALAN: When did he tell you that?

MR THANDAKUBONA: This is something that I had known since I have been living together with him or since I have been interacting with him over the years.

MR MALAN: So this is way after the - you didn't find that out on that day already. You didn't know of it on that day. You only learned that from what Motlana since after the arrest. Is that what your answer comes to?

MR THANDAKUBONA: No I thought you wanted to know as to for how long I have known this information. I knew this when I arrived at Orlando when we arrived coming back from town.

MR MALAN: When you went to fetch the car?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: So did Motlana then tell you that one of the persons that he assaulted agreed that he did burn comrade Jeff's house?

MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

RE-EXAMINANATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just one last question Mr Thandakubona. Do you

have any message to the families, what is your attitude now looking at it, at the whole incident, with hindsight, now with maturity after having grown, what would you say?

MR THANDAKUBONA: The things that happened are so painful, maybe people died innocently and this was all because there was this squabble, the conflict between the different organisations and this would be enough for a person to be killed. I know myself that we would be arrested for carrying out the horrendous deeds. I would like to say that things happened in a very very bad way. We believed that the political system was going to change. I acknowledge as well that innocent blood was shed, I beg for apology.

MR TLOUBATLA: No further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla do you have witnesses to call or is this your case.

MR TLOUBATLA: This is my case Mr Chairman but the only thing that I've been requested by my clients is that should the committee wish to call AZAPO itself or any officials, they will be available but otherwise we are closing our case.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja well if (indistinct) we should do that, of course it should be understood that we do not run the case for the

applicants.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you that will be the case for the applicants, there is nothing ... (inaudible - end of tape)

CHAIRPERSON: There is some confusion to an extent about the name Sam, particularly as used in the indictment and at some point it could give the impression that Mr Mphoreng is also known as Sam and for that reason we would like to have Mr Mphoreng back into the witness box. Mr Mphoreng would you please come back?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also known as Sam?

MR MPHORENG: Sam is not my name.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, alright thank you. I don't know if anybody would like to put questions, in fact I was asking this question within the context of the indictment, in particular the summary of material facts or substantial facts because there is a name which appears, Willie Edward Ndebele, Sam and then (Atasios Mphoreng) and ordinarily one - if there's some confusion here because if one had to apply the rules of grammar superficially one might think that Atasios Mphoreng means Sam but if you apply the rules of grammar strictly, if that were to be the case there would have been no comma after Sam so for that reason I thought that this witness should come back and if there is anybody wanting to ask him questions in that regard. Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

MR TLOUBATLA: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR AMEEN: None from me either Mr Chairman.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen you will appreciate that this aspect is of some importance, with regard to the proposition that you made. You made to the applicants yesterday or day before, you suggested to them that they are only incriminating or mentioning the name of Sam and Tamee because they are dead so it would appear that in fact the name of Sam was mentioned, not for the first time at this proceedings, but most probably as long ago as when, at the very least, the indictment was put up.

MR AMEEN: My understanding is that the references to comrade Sam and comrade Tamee were to those two people who are deceased by these applicants and not to one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, not one of them but I'm saying that you put it to the applicants that - you suggested to the applicants - you remember, you opening words: "If I may be sinister", "cynical" I'm sorry, your words were: "If I may be cynical".

MR AMEEN: I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You remember those words?

MR AMEEN: Yes I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went on to suggest that Sam and Tamee were not involved, were not incriminated in some way but that they had just been put in now because they are dead.

MR AMEEN: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: Or perhaps to be more precise with your suggestion, I had understood that you were suggesting that they were just in general being incriminated now that they are dead. I thought you went that far, but I'm told that you're merely saying that - you were restricting your remarks to the giving of the order.

MR AMEEN: To the giving of the order, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not want to go so far as to suggest that they are just being incriminated generally because they are dead. It's not what you're saying?

MR AMEEN: If I can just summarise what my understanding is. As far as the two survivors are concerned, comrade Sam and comrade Tamee - according to evidence of Mr Hlasa he was accompanied by comrade Sam and comrade Tamee and that is those three comrade Hlasa, Sam and Tamee, the late Sam, the late Tamee killed three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Two.

MR AMEEN: No killed three.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes as you see it, yes.

MR AMEEN: Can I just check this?

CHAIRPERSON: Well the number doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter, yes.

MR AMEEN: Alright. And my point was that they were now being incriminated because they were dead and that this reference to Sam in these, in the summary of facts is probably to one of the applicants here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you must be wrong. Well that's precisely the point that the witness was coming to testify. You remember I asked the previous witness - amongst the all of them, the whole group that committed this crime whether besides Sam Siema there was any other Sam. Mr Thandakubona said there wasn't any other Sam and then for a moment we thought that, looking at the summary of facts, Sam could possibly - one could possibly say Sam was Mr Mphoreng and that's why he came in to say that Sam is not his name. So the only Sam being incriminated here, because there is a Sam incriminated in the indictment, are you aware of that? Paragraph 6, page 33 if your bundle is paginated. You see paragraph 6?

MR AMEEN: Yes, the 4th line of paragraph 6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it says: "Pitso, Sam, Kabelo and Glen took this people and then went to go and shoot them". On the evidence before us who is Sam?

MR AMEEN: On the evidence before us it is only comrade Sam Siema.

CHAIRPERSON: That's right.

So it would mean that - I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, we have made no findings as yet, it will mean that we will have to treat with caution you argument or you suggestion that Sam Siema is only being incriminated now.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman would Mr Brink be able to help us in that respect whether Sam was actually - who the reference is to Sam there in terms of ... (intervention)

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman the papers I have are exactly the same but I noticed that as well and I've overscored in yellow this question of Sam being possibly Atasios Mphoreng, the second applicant in this matter but I can only going by the evidence being led and it appears clearly the Sam who was involved in this matter was not one of the applicants.

MR MALAN: May I just ask of Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: On page 1 of - on page 32, paragraph 1 there is a reference to Sam in the 7th line, Sam, Atasios Mphoreng.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I've been talking about. You remember when I referred to rules of grammar a short while ago well I was referring precisely to this.

MR AMEEN: But using that Mr Chairman, with respect, then that reference to Sam in here and in the summary of facts would be to Mr Mphoreng?

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the whole point, I called him in, that's why I brought him in and he says it's not him. And another thing is if you say that - look at the very sentence you're looking at, would you have put a comma there after Sam?

MR AMEEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Ordinarily I mean.

MR AMEEN: Ordinarily no, I wouldn't have.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just raising that because we are talking construction here, constructing a sentence. I mean in terms of strict rules of grammar you wouldn't say Sam, and then bracket because once you say that I could just as well ask you why then why can't Atasios Mphoreng not be the next person, (indistinct) why can't he be? Once you disregard that, the basic rule of grammar, the significance of that comma, once you disregard that then I can just as well as you why don't you disregard it at the end of the second bracket. I mean you can't pick and choose the construction you want to have.

ADV BOSMAN: By the same argument of course one could ask the question, I'm just sort of throwing this out, one could ask the question but then why, by the rules of grammar, are there brackets around Atasios Mphoreng, so it does present some difficulty but if one goes on reading then within the context it would appear as though the brackets are the error.

MR MALAN: Chair if - I don't think this will take us much further but clearly in the mind of whoever drafted these summary of facts, Sam and Mphoreng was the same man, comma or no comma because Mphoreng's name does not appear anywhere else in the summary of facts. But if I may ask Mr Ameen ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No it does.

MR MALAN: Where does it appear again in that paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible)

MR MALAN: Yes that's right, he refers to but the reference to those people involved are in the first paragraph at that stage and Mphoreng gave evidence that he was involved, but all I'm arguing is we need to sort that out in our own good time we won't take it further from the intention of the drafter here what really was said there.

CHAIRPERSON: In case people did not appreciate why I called in this witness, I called this witness to place the evidence on record that he is not Sam, and he has said he is not Sam and we are not about to call him Sam when he says he is not Sam so if - I'm going back again in case anybody missed the significance of that please say so. If need be we should call back the witness.

MR AMEEN: I think let's call back the witness and ask him exactly what the situation is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because if you don't put questions to him and he comes in the witness box and he says I am not Sam then we can't just say well you are Sam. Well did you want to put questions to him in that regard?

MR AMEEN: In that regard ... (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes please, unless you intend to call the Attorney General who drafted this thing?

MR MALAN: Chairman may I just ask Mr Ameen when the statement was put to the witness yesterday about the convenience of the death of Sam and Tamee, was it put to them that the victims will give evidence that these two people weren't involved at all at any stage, or was it put to them that they did not give orders at all. Can you just clarify that to us?

MR AMEEN: The victims are not certain about the identities of Sam and Tamee right, and the way I intended it was that these two were dead and that has been confirmed to me by Mr Tloubatla, that comrade Sam and comrade Tamee are deceased and what I was saying to the witness was that he was using them, because they were deceased, to say that these two were the ones that had given us orders to kill when there were other people, other leaders who could have given orders.

MR MALAN: They are not saying that these two people weren't involved at any stage?

MR AMEEN: No they do say that they are involved, yes I am aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then there's not problem I think, then there's no problem. Then it is almost common cause that the Sam and Tamee were also involved in the killing of the people. If it's not common cause, at least your clients don't dispute it.

MR AMEEN: To put it crudely or to put it commonly what I was saying to them was that they were passing the buck onto people who had died.

CHAIRPERSON: But your point will stand whether or not this is Sam or not. In that case your point will stand whether Sam Siema is the only Sam or not. So in that case do you still want to put questions?

MR AMEEN: There's no reason for that no.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR AMEEN: Simon Morris Mr Chairman.

MR SIMON MORRIS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Simon on the 1st of August 1986 you were a scholar ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. For the record, Mr Ameen for

the victim Mr Morris. Yes Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Morris on the 1st of August 1986 you were a pupil at Madweleni (?) High School in Orlando West?

MR MORRIS: I was a pupil at Madweleni High School doing Standard 10 in 1986.

MR AMEEN: And on that particular day school was disrupted at round about nine or ten in the morning?

MR MORRIS: Yes there were disruptions, particularly in our school because soldiers came to assembly and then they dismissed us to go home.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen. Mr Morris what language are you going to give your evidence in?

MR MORRIS: I'll prefer English.

ADV SIGODI: English, okay.

MR AMEEN: The other five victims, the survivor, Mr Sekano and the four deceased, were they attending the same school with you?

MR MORRIS: Yes correctly because Mr Sekano Kgase was doing Standard 6 at that time and the other four ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Just confine yourself to ... (intervention)

MR MORRIS: Okay.

MR AMEEN: They were attending the same school with you?

MR MORRIS: Yes the same school.

MR AMEEN: And after school was disrupted, you met in the course of the day?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: The six of you?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: And from the, aside from your normal activities, you played football until about two o' clock?

MR MORRIS: From the school we went home, to our respective homes, and then we met again about eleven o'clock because Vuyani used to go to his home on Fridays so he stayed with my neighbour which was Msilana Sishange.

MR AMEEN: Right. And you played - from then on you played football until about two?

MR MORRIS: Not particularly football, we played tennis in the street.

MR AMEEN: Right. And then which part of Orlando was this in that you were playing?

MR MORRIS: We were playing in our street just nearby our homes.

MR AMEEN: And after you finished playing, where did you go to?

MR MORRIS: As usual Vuyani used to go to his mother at Orlando East. He asked us to accompany him to his home.

MR AMEEN: That is all six of you went to his, were going towards his home?

MR MORRIS: Ja.

MR AMEEN: Now at some point on the way to his home you were accosted. Can you tell the committee who were you accosted by. Just who were you accosted by?

MR MORRIS: I think the first applicant and the second one because the first applicant produced a firearm just at the passage, you mentioned the church, the Presbyterian Church. They came out of the passage, it was about I think 60 metres from Vuyani's home.

MR AMEEN: Mr Morris who accosted you.

MR MORRIS: Mr Hlasa, I don't know if it's Hlasa or (indistinct)

MR AMEEN: Was he accompanied by any other people?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Who was he accompanied by?

MR MORRIS: The other two.

MR AMEEN: The other two?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Right. How were you accosted?

MR MORRIS: Mr Hlasa came forward and asked for a cigarette and all of us did not smoke, we said we didn't have a cigarette.

MR AMEEN: Right.

MR MORRIS: And then from there he produced a firearm and said we have burnt a house in Orlando West. We said no and then from there the other two accompanied him, they surrounded us.

MR AMEEN: And where did they take you to?

MR MORRIS: At gunpoint we were told to prove our innocence so we went with them through the passage, through other two streets and then at the corner of the second street that is where we met a group of other people.

MR AMEEN: And what happened at that point?

MR MORRIS: We were forced at gunpoint to enter the cars because we were trying to - they said we must go to that house and prove our innocence.

MR AMEEN: What cars were these?

MR MORRIS: The Chevrolet 41 which was red in colour.

MR AMEEN: Right and the other?

MR MORRIS: And a Mazda 323 because if I remember correctly the number plate of the Mazda was CKL2, I think 2 something but it was CKL.

MR AMEEN: Right. All six of you then were taken in these cars to a house?

MR MORRIS: Yes we were taken to a house in our street.

MR AMEEN: Right, and what happened at that house?

MR MORRIS: When we entered the house of the person who alleged that we burnt a house, the cars went to the backyard. We were told at gunpoint to come out. We came out of the cars. Mr Mphoreng was also taking out the gun again, we were forced into the kitchen where we met - when we entered the kitchen we found about nine to eleven men, seemingly they were painting.

MR AMEEN: And did this house bear any signs that it had been petrol bombed or burnt?

MR MORRIS: There was no sign.

MR AMEEN: Right. What happened once you got into the kitchen?

MR MORRIS: When we entered the kitchen they said they were waiting for us.

MR AMEEN: Right, and then, what happened then?

MR MORRIS: The torturing started because the kitchen did not have any furniture. There was a table there with about four to five guns with magazines, there were also hunting knives, there was an axe, there was an aerial, a car aerial and then we were told to strip down, we did that. We were given old clothes ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Can I just remind you, were there any iron rods on the table?

MR MORRIS: Yes, yes there were iron rods. Our money was taken, watches were taken, the running shoes, because all of us had running shoes, were taken and if I remember correctly the very same guy took my running shoes.

MR AMEEN: The very same guy, that is who?

MR MORRIS: This one.

MR AMEEN: Is that the first applicant, who are you pointing to?

MR MORRIS: I'm referring to the first applicant.

MR AMEEN: Mr Hlasa?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Right.

MR MORRIS: And as I was wearing a tracksuit, because I was a player of Keiser Chiefs, he even took the top of the tracksuit. We were given old trousers and we were also given the curtain wires to fasten the trousers. Well the torturing then continued from there.

MR AMEEN: How long did this continue in the kitchen?

MR MORRIS: In the kitchen I think it is more than one to two hours.

MR AMEEN: Do you want to give the committee more details of the torture?

MR MORRIS: Yes definitely. At one point we were told to stretch our arms, just like Jesus Christ when he was on the cross, and then they will take a but of the gun and then hit you on the ribs. At another point we were told to close our eyes and then they will hit you on the face with the iron rods. At one stage we were told to lie down and then they will stamp on top of your head.

MR AMEEN: With their feet?

MR MORRIS: Yes. At one point, I think I remember correctly, the other guy, I don't know his name, he said he was practising his boxing skills on my body. I think it was so terrible when one remembers. I'm surprised that they are saying they can't remember the details.

MR AMEEN: Were you, did you scream?

MR MORRIS: Yes a lot.

MR AMEEN: The people who were with you who were being tortured with you, were they screaming?

MR MORRIS: Yes all of us screamed.

MR AMEEN: You mentioned - no you didn't mention. Was there any music playing in the house?

MR MORRIS: The music was playing so high, probably to make the neighbours not to be aware of what was happening inside the house.

MR AMEEN: At what stage were you removed from the kitchen?

MR MORRIS: We were then divided into two groups.

MR AMEEN: Of how many?

MR MORRIS: Of three.

MR AMEEN: Who was in your group?

MR MORRIS: In the bedroom which was in it was myself, Sekano and Vuyani Nkomo.

MR AMEEN: Sekano is the other survivor?

MR MORRIS: Yes. We then entered that bedroom, it was the front bedroom facing the street. We were then tortured again because they told us we did not come up with the right answers, which answers I don't know because even today I don't know why we were tortured, why some of us died and why maybe today I'm here because they don't give us the right answers.

MR AMEEN: What - they obviously wanted information from you. Can you remember what information they wanted?

MR MORRIS: They said we burnt a house, the house, that particular house.

MR AMEEN: And you saw no signs of burning?

MR MORRIS: No. Even the burning we never knew about the burning of the house. Even the activities that they claim we were SOSCO members, they must be embarrassed to call us SOSCO members because we were never involved in politics.

MR AMEEN: What other information did they want from you?

MR MORRIS: They said who were causing trouble in the location. We did not know who were the people causing trouble.

MR AMEEN: Did you or any of the others who were abducted or kidnapped that day, give them information about going around (indistinct) houses?

MR MORRIS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand the other sentence about SOSCO. Is you evidence that you were not members of SOSCO at all or is your evidence that you were members of SOSCO but SOSCO was not involved at all in politics?

MR MORRIS: We were never involved in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you members of SOSCO?

MR MORRIS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR AMEEN: Continue about the torturing in the bedroom.

MR MORRIS: At some stage we were told to lie under the bed to sleep because this was the last day for us, that's what they said. We got into the bed, I think it's a small bed, we pretended to be sleeping.

MR AMEEN: That is under the bed?

MR MORRIS: Under the bed. Music was still going on, playing very high and some of them were drinking at that stage because as they frequented in the bedroom one will hear that they are drinking beer because there was also beer in that bedroom. And at one stage I was called out because the other guy said: "(indistinct), I then came out. I was told to lie on top of the bed, I did that. They took a plastic, a black plastic and tied it around my head. I don't know what type of material they used to beat my head but it was so painful that I even end up, I did bite the plastic in order not to suffocate.

MR AMEEN: When you say material, it was an object?

MR MORRIS: Yes it was an object.

MR AMEEN: A hard object?

MR MORRIS: Yes. He then accused me again of playing for a team which he doesn't like.

MR AMEEN: When you refer to he, who are you referring to?

MR MORRIS: I'm referring to this chap.

MR AMEEN: That is Mr Hlasa, the first applicant.

MR MORRIS: Ja. He asked me about the activities in Kaiser Chiefs. I then said that I was a second division player. He then went on asking me why did I play for this kind of a team because he hated the team, but at that stage I couldn't answer because remember I was from the plastic, I just kept quiet. And then I was taken to the kitchen where I met Mbulelo Mabena.

MR AMEEN: And who is Mbulelo Mabena?

MR MORRIS: Mbulelo Mabena is deceased now because he died on the very same day.

MR AMEEN: He was one of the six of you?

MR MORRIS: Yes. We were instructed to draw up a list of our names and our addresses because what they said to us they were going to negotiate with our parents that we are released. They wanted money for us in order to get released. We then wrote down the list because we though we were going to be released. We wrote down the list then we gave them the list and then tortured again, went back to the bedroom, got under the bed and slept again.

MR AMEEN: You were ordered to get under the bed or did you do that voluntarily?

MR MORRIS: There was no option Mr Ameen because when we were abducted in Orlando East, if we were really activists we could have ran away, or if you know that you have done something wrong you always try to hide or run away. We did not do that, does it come to your mind when somebody does wrong and then just helplessly without fighting back, we did not fight back.

MR AMEEN: Mr Morris what happened after that.

MR MORRIS: After that I think it was getting dark, maybe between the hours of seven or eight.

MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt you and just ask you ... (intervention)

MR MORRIS: There's something I forgot Mr Ameen, my apologies. There was one incident which happened and I think the third applicant is part and parcel of that. Where I was told to stand up before getting under the bed, that is when I was from the kitchen. They said I must untie this wire, this curtain wire.

MR AMEEN: Around your waist.

MR MORRIS: Yes, I did that. Automatically the trouser would then go down because the trouser did not even have a zip. They then went to the private parts with a pliers, taking turns in - I don't know what I can call it, torture and they seemed to enjoy it very much because the one would say no you did not do it well, give it to me I will do it much better. The other one will then say this is not the way to do it because there was one stage where the scrotal sac - I hope you understand what I am saying because the two balls - the one person was trying to just to open this pliers and then crush it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry ... (inaudible) crushing the balls?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Were they actually crushed or was he trying to do that?

MR MORRIS: Fortunately as the balls are moving voluntarily maybe he got the part where the ball was not at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we understand, I didn't mean actually crush, I just meant pressing.

MR AMEEN: Right, continue. When did this assault stop?

MR MORRIS: There was a time when I started crying very loudly and was told to shut up because the other guy whom I did not know said if I keep on screaming he will blow my brains out and I saw that this was a real gun, it was not a toy gun.

MR AMEEN: How old were you at that time?

MR MORRIS: I was nineteen years old.

MR AMEEN: When did this assault stop?

MR MORRIS: It stopped, I think it took about ten to twenty minutes.

MR AMEEN: That's with the plier?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: The whole assault from the time you were taken into the house, into the kitchen, into the different bedrooms, when did that stop. The assault and the interrogation?

MR MORRIS: Do you mean the duration of ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Yes the duration of the whole ...

MR MORRIS: When we accompanied Vuyani it was around past two to three. Possibly when we entered the house it was maybe it was five past three or ten past three and possibly when we entered or when we moved out of the house it was about past seven, maybe quarter past or ten past or even half past seven.

MR AMEEN: But it was after dark?

MR MORRIS: Ja.

MR AMEEN: Now up to the point where you are now being taken away from this house, is there any other material fact or factor that you want to bring to the attention of the committee?

MR MORRIS: Can you ask that question again?

MR AMEEN: Up to the point where you are being taken away from the house, is there any other material point that you want to bring to the attention of the committee?

MR MORRIS: When we were taken out of the house we got instructions that when we move out of the house we must face down, we must not look on the sides. We went out and got into the boot of the car.

MR AMEEN: Now were any of you six blindfolded when you got out of the house.

MR MORRIS: From my sake I don't remember.

MR AMEEN: Were you blindfolded?

MR MORRIS: No not.

MR AMEEN: Which car boot were you ordered to get into?

MR MORRIS: I believe maybe it was the Mazda.

MR AMEEN: And who was with you?

MR MORRIS: In my group?

MR AMEEN: In your group.

MR MORRIS: In my group it was myself, Sekano Kgase and Vuyani Nkomo.

MR AMEEN: And Vuyani's a deceased?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Or one of the deceased?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

PANEL: ... (inaudible)

MR MORRIS: It was myself, Simon Morris, Edwin Vuyani Nkomo and Sekano Kgase.

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier on you said that the third applicant started applying the pliers on you. Who is the third applicant?

MR MORRIS: The third applicant I think is the middle one.

CHAIRPERSON: Just point him out.

MR MORRIS: The middle one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed you have pointed out Mr Thandakubona.

MR AMEEN: Yes thank you Mr Chairman. All three of you were put into the boot?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: And you were then taken to a house. The applicants have given evidence that it was comrade Jeff's house. Did you know whose house it was and where this house was?

MR MORRIS: We did not know who this house was and even the place at that stage ... (intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ameen you said comrade Jeff's house.

MR AMEEN: Sorry my apologies, comrade Glen's house. Thank you Madam Chair.

MR MORRIS: Yes we were taken to a house. Personally I was taken from one car when we entered the yard at the backyard, I was taken from one boot of the car to another boot of the car.

MR AMEEN: How long were you at this house in the boot of the car at this house?

MR MORRIS: They took some time, about fifteen to twenty minutes.

MR AMEEN: Were you the only person in the boot?

MR MORRIS: I remember Vuyani was called to go into the house, inside and then when I was in the second they put - because we came out of the boot of the first car and then I don't know what happened to Sekano, but Vuyani was instructed to go into the house and I was instructed to get into another boot of the car.

MR AMEEN: Right, so of the two cars, how many cars were there at that point?

MR MORRIS: Probably there were two cars.

MR AMEEN: Right. And you got into the boot of the second car, you were there in the boot for some time?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: And then what happened? You were alone in the boot at that stage?

MR MORRIS: I was alone and the music was also playing very high at that stage and Vuyani came back, he was bleeding. He could not talk, his was swelling, his face was swelling.

MR AMEEN: And was he also put into the boot of the same car with you?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Which car was it?

MR MORRIS: I don't know the model of the car because remember we were told to get out of the car, not to face on the sides and get into another boot of a car.

MR AMEEN: You were then in the boot with Vuyani?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: For a while and then you were drive away from there?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: When were you removed from the boot or when did you get out of the boot?

MR MORRIS: When we reached a, I think it looks like a open veld. We were told to come out of the boot and again not to look on the sides.

MR AMEEN: Alright. Both of you were taken out of the boot?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Was Vuyani able to get out himself or did you help him or how did he get out?

MR MORRIS: He struggled because when he came out of the house, as I said his was swelling, his face was swelling. I tried to ask him what were they saying to you these people. He could not talk.

MR AMEEN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until half past eleven.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

SIMON MORRIS: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: (cont)

Mr Morris at the break or just before the break we were at the point where you were now being taken to the scene of the murders. Tell us which of the victims was in you car with you and tell us how ... (inaudible - end of tape).

MR TLOUBATLA: ... (inaudible) not something serious, I was just concerned whether the witness is still under oath.

CHAIRPERSON: You are still under oath isn't it Mr Morris, you understand that? Thank you. Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Right. We were at the point when you now reached the scene of the murders, you had been taken out of the car. Can you continue from that point?

MR MORRIS: The car stopped at a certain point and when we got out I saw that it was a veld. When the boot was opened we were told to come out but look down but Vuyani was struggling because he seemed to have had injuries, maybe in the back or maybe the hands because ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Which other victims was with you?

MR MORRIS: I was with Vuyani Nkomo inside the boot and I think Sekano was just inside the car parked in the back seat. We got out, we were told to run towards a wall.

MR AMEEN: There were three of you?

MR MORRIS: Yes. They said to us, do you see that wall? We looked up and we saw a wall. They said I want to run from here and if you try to run away we will shoot you. With barefoot because the veld I think it was not used for some time, we ran towards the wall. As we reached the wall they picked up spots on the wall, just like if Vuyani is going to be here, myself in the middle and Sekano on the right hand side and we were told to lie down and face them.

MR AMEEN: You use the term lie down. What you actually mean to say is that you were ordered to sit?

MR MORRIS: We were ordered to sit down?

MR AMEEN: In what position?

MR MORRIS: Is it possible to demonstrate to you? Can I take of my jacket because it's going to disturb me, I know it's not correct.

They were asked to sit down with their backs to the wall with their faces down.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me we are beginning to have problems with the sound system again, it seems as if only one mike at a time is able to operate from the audience.

MR AMEEN: After the three of you were seated in the manner you've just demonstrated, what happened then?

MR MORRIS: The three of us, there were also three men one on each and Hlasa, Mphoreng were also there with the other person, I don't know the other person. The first shot came out of the gun of I think Hlasa, he shot Sekano.

MR AMEEN: Continue.

MR MORRIS: They then went to the left hand side because I was in the middle where they shot Edwin Vuyani Nkomo. They then came to me. At that point it was a matter of life and death.

MR AMEEN: For you?

MR MORRIS: Yes, because I could hear the shots and also the scream. Hlasa them came to me at point blank because they were shooting at point blank. He shot me once in the leg, on the right knee just near the joint. I felt nothing because the bullet went in through the left hand side of the knee went out through the right hand side of the knee. I thought I was not shot because I could feel nothing. Mphoreng then said ... (inaudible) - this dog is not dead. He tried to shoot but the shots missed me, I don't know how, there were four shots because the gun was pointing at me and I was not shot. I tried to move because they said: "Can you see this person is moving, give me that gun", because the gun which was used I think it jammed, it could not go on shooting so they changed the gun and also the magazine, if it is the magazine because I don't know whether those are magazines or not, I only saw it on TV. The other shot then went through my left hand - I don't know if it is possible that I can show it to the committee? At that point I tried to block the bullet with this hand and it went in here, it went out this side.

CHAIRPERSON: It went through your left wrist?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR AMEEN: Just above the left wrist.

CHAIRPERSON: Just above the wrist.

MR MORRIS: Yes and then it went out here. They seemed to be worried because I was continuously moving because I felt my hand was so weak now. Unfortunately when I tried to turn my head because I was facing this side, I tried to move to see if they were still there. That was when I was shot on my right cheek. The bullet went in here.

MR MALAN: That's your left cheek?

MR MORRIS: Yes, the left cheek. It went in and stayed just next to the ear here because it stayed there I think for about seven days. At that point I could not see anything because the face was swelling. Fortunately the left eye was still operating because even if the face was swelling, I tried to fight this death. The only thing that I saw was stars. It's terrible that I have to come to this commission and tell about the truth when the victims or the people who committed this cannot say the truth.

MR AMEEN: Mr Morris the other three victims, do you know how they were killed?

MR MORRIS: Is it in the other group?

MR AMEEN: In the other group.

MR MORRIS: No, I only saw their photographs when I was first, I think after the incident by a Sergeant - I don't know whether it is Sergeant or Warrant Officer Diedericks from Protea, where I had to go and write a statement. He showed me the photographs of the other three and at that stage I think Oscar Mlangeni was still alive because he was shot but he was not dead at that time, he died about twenty eight days after the incident in a coma.

MR AMEEN: Right. Is there anything else you wish to add?

MR MORRIS: After being shot in the left cheek I was missed again by about seven bullets because the other one said: "We must finish this dog, this dog is still moving" and through God I think because if it was not for God I was not going to be here. So I was missed by four bullets from there they congratulated themselves that they have done a good job. They then went to the car.

MR AMEEN: Before they went to the car and after or around the time that they congratulated themselves and before the shooting was over, at some point they asked you to take a message to someone. Can you tell the commission about that message.

MR MORRIS: The message was specifically to be conveyed by Sekano Kgase because they said to Sekano Kgase he must convey the blessings and the greetings to their leader Steve Biko.

MR AMEEN: After they left what did you do?

MR MORRIS: After they left I felt that I was still alive because even if I saw stars, I could only see stars, because even today I only see stars in my face, I called up Edwin Nkomo, he did not answer. I then called up Sekano Kgase, he answered. He then said to me: "Let us try to run away". I then insisted to him let us check Edwin Nkomo if he's still alive. That is when I felt that I was shot in the leg because I was feeling the pain because of the cold and also the bleeding of the leg. I went to Edwin Nkomo, he was dead because when I felt his pulse in the arm and also the heartbeat it was not there. I felt, I touched the head, it was only blood that I felt and he was dead.

MR AMEEN: What did the two of you do then?

MR MORRIS: I said to Sekano he must take my hand, my right hand because I could not see and I was struggling with my right knee. We then moved from the spot, from there I said to him: "Which place is this?", he said: "I don't know". Fortunately we saw the house, the corner house. We went into the yard of that house and as we entered the house or the yard there were some people maybe who stayed in that house, outside they were just talking.

MR AMEEN: And did you get assistance at this house?

MR MORRIS: We tried to communicate to this people but they were speaking Shangan, it was possibly it was Shawella, but fortunately we were able to convey the message through Zulu - (inaudible). They then started asking questions, where are you from because they were surprised this kids with old clothes, where do they come from bleeding. We entered the kitchen of that house and if it was not the mother of that house I could be dead by now because I was now feeling the pain of the swelling wound in the head ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should direct your client Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you. Mr Morris the shooting is over, you've now come to this house, from here you've managed to get assistance and you were taken to hospital.

MR MORRIS: Ja the mother of that house phoned our homes and also the hospital.

MR AMEEN: Right, you were then taken to hospital?

MR MORRIS: We were then taken to hospital but we also insisted that they must also go and check the person Edwin who was in that veld.

MR AMEEN: That is the evidence Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kgase you say that you left school that day at approximately nine o'clock?

MR MORRIS: Firstly I'm not Mr Kgase, I'm Mr Morris.

MR TLOUBATLA: Sorry, I beg your pardon sir. Mr Morris what time did you leave school that day?

MR MORRIS: The school was dismissed about nine o'clock.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then right until the time when you were apprehended by these people, were you with this six friends of yours?

MR MORRIS: From the school we went to our respective homes, except Vuyani Nkomo who went with Msilana Sishange and from there we then met again at about eleven o'clock where we organised a tennis ball and started playing. Round about two o'clock Vuyani asked us to accompany him to his home in Orlando East.

MR TLOUBATLA: You probably heard the evidence of the witnesses, I mean the applicants, who say that there was a time when a group of about fifteen to twenty people were running up and down Jeff Lingani's house or walking around there chanting songs, intimidating songs, were you a part of that group?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: At the time of this incident, when this incident happened, did you know Jeff Lingani?

MR MORRIS: No.

MR TLOUBATLA: Where were you staying?

MR MORRIS: I was staying in Orlando West at (indistinct) Street.

MR TLOUBATLA: So you never saw these people who were singing up and down this street where Jeff Lingani was staying?

MR MORRIS: No I have no idea about that.

MR TLOUBATLA: At school, at your school Madwaleni (?) were you also a member of SOSCO?

MR MORRIS: No.

MR TLOUBATLA: Are you aware whether SOSCO was very active at the school?

MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir because we were school going kids, I think I was also involved in tutoring classes in our school so I don't know about the activities of SOSCO or any other group that was involved.

MR TLOUBATLA: You were in your Standard 10, is that not true?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: Tell me were you aware of, generally in the community, this massive conflict that was going on between the two political groupings AZAPO and the UDF?

MR MORRIS: I was not aware because I think at 1986 my aim was just to finish school and then go either to varsity or to a technikon.

MR TLOUBATLA: How old were you during 1986?

MR MORRIS: I was born in 1967 and I think it's about nineteen years old.

MR TLOUBATLA: Would you say that when you were interrogated, assaulted at Jeff Lingani's house, the people who were assaulting you were they very older than you or were they perhaps your age group?

MR MORRIS: They were older than us.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm sure you heard the evidence of one of them, that is Mr Mphoreng, he says at the time he was twenty years.

CHAIRPERSON: But twenty years and nineteen years are not the same sir. There's a difference of one year there.

MR TLOUBATLA: But one would say it's the same age group, wouldn't you?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, probably of the same generation but not the same age. Now the question is not the same age, the same age group?

MR MORRIS: Yes they might be the same group.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you at that time know anything about the organisation SOSCO?

MR MORRIS: I always read in the newspapers because as a Standard 10 pupil you are asked to maybe summarise and article or maybe write out something concerning the debates or that, but the activities of SOSCO or any other group I don't have no knowledge of that.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you know anything about AZAPO at that time?

MR MORRIS: I only knew that it was an organisation.

MR TLOUBATLA: I want to refer you to some article. This is an article dated the 24th of November 1986, it was in the Sowetan.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that already an exhibit Mr Tloubatla, not.

MR TLOUBATLA: No, not an exhibit Maam.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have copies for us Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman unfortunately I only have this but I can make them available later on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla our rules of procedure dictate that anybody using any document will, in advance, make enough copies and furnish all other interested parties with a copy of that particular document and you've been springing on us one document after the other since Monday and you didn't make copies of us and you are going to be the only one who is reading that document and putting questions to the witness. Whether you'll be reading that correctly or accidently (indistinct) out of context, nobody knows. We are all at your mercy and I think this is really undesirable.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, under the circumstances perhaps I will reserve this to a later stage and when I have enough copies I'll ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well there may not be a later stage, I think just go on let's see what happens. There's not going to be a later stage, we must finish this case today if not before one o'clock.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you sir. I've got an article here it says, I'm just quoting somewhere in the middle: "This latest wave of killings has horrified the community. Earlier this year the community was similarly shocked when six youths, members of the Soweto Student Congress were shot near Shawella after they had been kidnapped. Four of them died".

CHAIRPERSON: Give us the details, the date?

MR TLOUBATLA: That is 24 November 1986.

MR MALAN: And which paper are you quoting?

MR TLOUBATLA: The Sowetan. Mr Morris I'm referring to the highlighted portion of the newspaper, can you see that?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be Exhibit G. Do you have any explanation why anybody would refer to your group as members of the Soweto Student Congress or something like that?

MR MORRIS: I have no idea about that because what the journalists are writing, they are writing about something which maybe they get it from somewhere because I have no knowledge of one time when I met a journalist and talked to a journalist. Whether he calls us SOSCO members or what, I don't know where he gets it from.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you, after this incident, did you subsequently perhaps make any enquiries as to who Jeff Lingani is?

MR MORRIS: No sir because after the incident I think I suffered a loss, I could not write the very same year. I went to school the following year, I failed because I could not recover correctly so whoever this Jefferson was or what he did I did not even care about that because I don't know why we were shot, why some of us died.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to refer you to yet another press cutting, it is the Star date is the 26th of October '86 ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Should this be returned first?

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, I'm just - listen to me and I'm going to ask you a question about this. It says: "On Monday night Mr Thabo Lingani ...", sorry. Just one moment Mr Chair ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't you got any spectacles Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: I read better without my spectacles sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why do you put them on at all?

MR TLOUBATLA: I can see a hazy view of you when I don't have them but the reading I ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: Perhaps a better view?

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright let me just, because the article is long I'm not going to read all about it, I'm going to just give you the background to it. Basically Mr Thabo Lingani - they're talking about Mr Thabo Lingani, Mr Thabo Lingani is the father of Mr Jeff Lingani, they were staying in Moletsani in Soweto so he was kidnapped and he was killed, that was subsequent to the incident in which you were involved so it's basically about that, about Jeff Lingani's father, right.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't read it, can't you ask your assistant to read it otherwise bring it here, let's read it to the witness because you are trying to summarise it and it may not be an accurate summary of what stands there.

MR TLOUBATLA: I can read perfectly sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then read it to the witness and didn't you mark the portion which is supposed to be important to you or highlight it?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you sir. "It all started eight weeks ago in Orlando West in Soweto when six young school boys were abducted and driven during the night to an open veld in Shawella Township where they were shot and then set alight. Four of the youngsters died and Mr Lingani's other son, Jefferson, was immediately linked to the abductions and shootings. Reprisal were swift, the following night Jefferson's house and another next to it were fire bombed, causing extensive damage. Later a bus was driven into the ruins to complete the effect. Jefferson was arrested to answer a number of allegations including murder. He was granted bail but has since disappeared and speculation is that he has left the country. A warrant for his arrest is held. His house was near the homes of the youngsters who had been abducted and shot. It is in this neighbourhood where a well known former Soweto Student, Mr (indistinct) was also lived". In Mr Lingani's killing, revenge was the most likely motive. His abductors were looking for Jefferson and not finding him decided on a member of his family. "And over the past months ..." that is a quotation, "... over the past months we received telephone calls threatening us to expect anything". I'm referring to this article in particular, as you can see immediately after this incident, there were very serious reprisals, revenge killings. Mr Morris do you know who avenged the death of your friends, you know your injuries and who are those people who went out to go and kill Jeff Lingani to avenge what you went through?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Tloubatla now if I understand it correctly it was an inference that the journalist drew there, I don't think it's fair to put it to the witness that it was in fact a revenge killing unless I misunderstood the reading because I did not have it before me.

MR TLOUBATLA: Well Madam Bosman it's true that some of them are inferences, but we are basically working on inferences. I mean it is my basic understanding that the witness will either deny any knowledge of that but some of these things are basically based on rumours, on inferences and all that and it is my understanding that the killing of Mr Lingani it was a direct sequel after the incident in which they were involved.

ADV BOSMAN: I think it would be fair to put it to the witness that it was a direct sequel and ask him whether it was a reprisal and whether he knows about it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Maam, I'll do so. Right, in October, just about two months thereafter, Mr Lingani's father was killed the way it is described in the newspaper. It is obviously as inference that it was a reprisal killing, in fact even the newspapers are putting it that way. Do you have any knowledge as to who could possibly have avenged what you went through?

MR MORRIS: With respect sir I have no knowledge of what you are talking about because if you mentioned the bus and the burning of the (indistinct), I was discharged at Baragwanath on the ninth of August 1986 and from there, because of I could not go on writing because at Baragwanath I was taken to St Johns where my eyes were tested and the one doctor prescribed me that I should learn to read braille because I was not going to cope up with the exams so the decision was then to consult my father and mother. From there on ... (intervention)

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you I think that is sufficient but ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla can I have the date of that newspaper?

MR TLOUBATLA: He has got it with him. Thank you. Mr Morris it is my feeling and I want to agree with the newspapers that you know these two incidents, that is your incident where you were killed, I mean where your friends were killed and you were so much tortured, they are so closely linked that it is my feeling that the inference that I'm making that it was to avenge what you went through. Do you see it the same way as myself?

MR MORRIS: With respect sir again I think when you say it is your feelings, you have a right to say it is your feelings and even the journalists have a right to write whatever they want to write about their own feelings but ... (intervention)

MR TLOUBATLA: No, I want your feelings, I know our feelings I can ... (intervention)

MR MORRIS: Yes. I think it is the first time that I see that newspaper article.

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes but please understand me, do you agree with me, do you agree with the newspaper that this was definitely to avenge what you went through?

MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir.

MR MALAN: Could I ask you Mr Morris, did you have knowledge of the death of Mr Lingani, of Jeff's father?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to take you further on this matter. The reason basically why I'm putting this feeling of mine to you, it's simply to say that you are not telling the commission the truth when you say you knew nothing about SOSCO, you knew nothing about the rivalries between these two organisations because there it is, somebody went out of his way to go and avenge what you went through, that's why I am putting this through to you, that you personally are definitely not telling the truth.

MR MORRIS: With respect sir, can you then put the questions to prove that I'm not a SOSCO member or even my friends who died because they cannot answer for themselves now. We are the only two that survived so we can relate what happened. So if you are saying to me that I am not telling the truth, with respect I must convey my apologies to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's handle this in a different way. On the face of it this article is relevant and important and we are here to seek the truth and must get to it by all means. The other people, the five do you know whether any one of them was a member of SOSCO?

MR MORRIS: No, no sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know?

MR MORRIS: I know that they were not even a member of any single organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you know that?

MR MORRIS: We used to go to stadiums because we grew up from childhood. On Fridays we used to play soccer at the grounds late in the afternoon and also Mondays and on Saturdays we used to go to Wits Saturday School which was conducted by - I don't know, Wits Saturday School and then as a soccer player, either Saturday or Sunday I was required to do my duties at Keiser Chiefs and the others would then follow me maybe to come and see where I'm playing.

CHAIRPERSON: The impression you give us is that you in particular was totally uninterested in politics?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That may or may not be so, but isn't it so, don't we know that we all know that since 1976 high school students have demonstrated clear interest in political activism. Am I right in my statement?

MR MORRIS: You are right, but not all students are involved or are interested in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were in Standard 10?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And again, I preface my question to you by saying it may or may not be so but we do know, don't we, that Matric students in many instances were in fact in the forefront of student politics. Isn't that so?

MR MORRIS: They might be but not all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And we do know, don't we, that particularly in Soweto there was a lot of political activism amongst students. Isn't that so?

MR MORRIS: Yes that was so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to know from you, was there political activism in your school?

MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How big is the school. Does is not comprise of hundreds of students?

MR MORRIS: It comprises of hundreds of students but all the students are not doing the same activity because as I said earlier on that I was involved as a tutor, we did not have teachers so we used to help each other tutoring so whatever happened outside, whatever happened in other classrooms, it was not our business sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So is it your evidence that as far as you know, there has not be political activism at your school?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your evidence?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then let us look at this ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Just a matter on that aspect of political activism. Why were you dismissed at nine o'clock that morning?

MR MORRIS: There were I think trucks or even delivery vehicles which were, I can say they were looted by other schools in our vicinity so the police went from one school to another school, they then came to us when we had assembly. We were then instructed to go home on that Friday.

ADV SIGODI: So the students from your school were not involved in the looting or ... (intervention)

MR MORRIS: No, we had assembly at that point and the soldiers just came in. At the assembly they talked to our principle. We were then told by one teacher that the school is dismissed because the soldiers were saying the gate must be closed and teachers must go home so we went home.

CHAIRPERSON: During your days as a student at that school, was there ever a so-called school boycott?

MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: If it had been there I would expect you to know.

MR MORRIS: If it had been there maybe it was going to be there, but I have no knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes we have problems expressing ourselves, when you say you have no knowledge of that, I'm not sure whether you are saying as far as you're concerned it did not happen or whether you're saying it might have happened, but I don't remember.

MR MORRIS: It did not happen.

ADV SIGODI: Just on the aspect of the boycott, you've just said that you were tutoring?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Why were you tutoring?

MR MORRIS: I was tutoring maths at our school.

ADV SIGODI: Why?

MR MORRIS: We did not have a Standard 9 and Standard 10 teacher so the material that we got from Wits Saturday School I used to bring it to our school and maybe other classmates duplicate the material because we didn't have teachers for two years, specifically maths and physics.

ADV SIGODI: Did you have teachers for other subjects?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let me ask you questions about this article which Mr Tloubatla showed to you. It implied that after what happened to you, there was retribution. In other words it was a revenge carried out on Lingani or Lingani's father.

MR MORRIS: Yes that is what the article is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It said the following night Jefferson's house and another next to it were fire bombed etc, etc and later a bus was driven into the ruins to complete the fact. Now this was quite something, this was quite a huge destruction, the house was petrol bombed and from there a bus driven over it to make sure that it's flattened.

MR MORRIS: At that point I was still at Baragwanath ICU.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and in fact I don't think that any of the six of you could have been responsible for that.

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you, know that we know that you the victims could not have been involved at all, if you are not attached to some kind of organisation or if you're not attached to some kind of a large organisation, who possibly could have done this in revenge. That is the crux of the question?

MR MORRIS: Well I don't know who could have possibly done that because as I've mentioned earlier that being not involved in politics, one cannot account maybe for the newspaper article which was written or may the events which took place after we were shot because we were even surprised, we were shot we were asked questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I hear you, you say you don't know, but I'm just putting it across to you that this is the context in which it has been put to you.

MR MORRIS: Yes that is the context.

MR MALAN: Chair may I just ask Mr Morris, why could it not have been one of the UDF organisations that came with this reprisal ... (inaudible) being aligned to AZAPO, having made an attack on youngsters. The question is put to you from the article. Is it an unreasonable inference to see it as a revenge or retaliation?

MR MORRIS: That is what the article is saying it says a retaliation, from who I don't have any knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just something. Did you - Mr Tloubatla asked you whether you had knowledge of this huge conflict that prevailed between AZAPO and UDF and you said you did not

have such knowledge?

MR MORRIS: Yes I did not have such a knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you really be serious about that when we see articles in the newspapers that even church people were called in to mitigate, to try and resolve that. Wasn't such a conflict really a matter of public knowledge to anybody, to everybody in the area?

MR MORRIS: It can be a matter of public knowledge but to me personally I have no idea of what was going on because even the article I asked from - I saw an article at Mr Tloubatla's desk today, youth killed - do you remember Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes.

MR MORRIS: And then I just saw the headlines because at school now, I'm a teacher now, I think looking at the headlines and also the summary you tend to ... (inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you. I am going back to this (indistinct) of political activity, particularly amongst the six of you. You say you are certain that all the six of you, none of them were involved in any political activity. Are you saying that?

MR MORRIS: Yes I'm saying that.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you also admitted that you personally, you were not involved in any political activity?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you preclude the possibility that one of your friends could have been involved, could actually have been a member of some other organisations?

MR MORRIS: No, no one in our group as growing up kids. The only thing that we liked I think it was clothes and school, not politics.

MR TLOUBATLA: Are you saying that none of your friends were in any way involved in any political activity?

MR MORRIS: That is what I'm saying, none of us were involved in politics.

MR TLOUBATLA: But did your friends or in allegiance to you says that whatever they did they had to report to you such that you had to know, even if you were not involved in politics.

MR MORRIS: There was no report of such happenings.

MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question. My question is, did they owe you so much allegiance that despite the fact that they knew that you were not involved in politics, they would even report to you if they were involved in any political activity?

MR MORRIS: They were not involved in politics, they were not involved in politics and because the other four ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute. I think you may be advised to say not as far as I know because you must remember in 1986 for example, some of these organisations were banned and people who were members thereof did not disclose that. The ANC was still banned, the PAC was still banned, they were operating underground and you know there were many people who were members of such organisations, confidentially or secretly or underground. I don't know whether you really want to insist that, to put your head on the block and say they were never a member of any organisation. Don't you think you should qualify your answer by saying as far as I know.

MR MORRIS: If it goes to a point of putting my head on a block, I'll do that because I'm saying they were not involved in politics, I cannot say as far as that because I have no knowledge of that. That is an assumption which I will be making, but I'm saying they were not involved in politics as I was also not involved in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Well there you are Mr Tloubatla he's putting it in the strongest possible terms. He's prepared to put his head on the block for it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Right, now let's move on to your school. Was there any political activity at your school at the time?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm putting it to you that that school will be the most extraordinary school in 1986 in Soweto not to have any form of political activity. I am putting it to you. Do you have any response to what I'm saying?

MR MORRIS: Yes I do have a response. What I'm putting back to you sir, with kind respect, is that there were no politics in our school.

CHAIRPERSON: Any student movement?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know whether any of the students at Madweleni High School were perhaps involved in political activity, even if it's outside the school?

MR MORRIS: No I have no knowledge of that sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you can't exclude the possibility that some of them were involved in political activity?

MR MORRIS: I cannot account for what I don't know sir, just what I know.

MR TLOUBATLA: In as far as your knowledge goes, do you know of any schools, except yours, any high school in Soweto at the time where there was hardly any political activity?

MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that because our focus was just only going through the high school and then going either to a university or technikon.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know whether generally, around that time, students particularly your age were very active in politics?

MR MORRIS: Yes they might have been active in politics, but not us, specifically not myself and other.

MR TLOUBATLA: I don't refer to you, not you not your group basically, I'm saying generally, students in general in Soweto around that time who were very, very active in politics?

MR MORRIS: That could have happened but not in our school.

MR MALAN: Mr Tloubatla do you have anything specific to put to the witness on disruptions in his school at that time and if not, should we proceed with this kind of questioning?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no. I'm going to put it to you for the last time Mr Morris you are not honest to this commission. You are not telling the truth when you say particularly at your school that there were not politics at all, that students were not involved in political activity. I put it to you that you are just simply saying this to try and paint some image of a very innocent, disinterested citizen or student who was abducted by some thugs. That's basically what you're trying to give to this commission and you're not truthful to yourself and to us all?

MR MORRIS: Kindly, with respect sir, are you putting these words into my mouth, are you saying I'm telling the truth - I'm telling lies in fact?

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm saying so, particularly with political activity at your school.

MR MORRIS: Yes, I've said no. If you have any other questions that makes you to doubt whether I'm saying the lies or maybe I'm saying not the truth, then why don't you ask other questions because I'm saying to you I'm putting my head on the block on this one because even at now I'm not involved in politics. Should I say now because of the climate of the country I'm involved in politics?

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm talking about your school at the time, not you personally.

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Please refer to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Your answer is that when you say your school was not involved in politics, you are not lying, you are telling the truth?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: There's your answer.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now let's move on to the assaults on you at the house of Jeff Lingani. You told us in detail how you were assaulted but one specific assault that I want to refer to, you say you were hit with an iron bar. Which part of the body were you hit with that iron bar and how severe was it?

MR MORRIS: When I was hit with the iron bar it was in the bedroom when I was blindfolded with the plastic. I was then hit in the body with an iron bar. When I came back from the kitchen again I was then tortured with a plier.

MR TLOUBATLA: So with the iron bar you were hit - which part of the body were you hit?

MR MORRIS: The iron bar was applied randomly, so if it hits the body, automatically the head will also be affected because they were just hitting like that, if you are using maybe a stick.

MR TLOUBATLA: Sorry, with this iron bar you were hit all over the body. Is that how I understand it?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Was it hard?

MR MORRIS: How can I say it is soft Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: In all fairness to yourself Mr Morris the - when you speak of the iron bar is it the object which was used to hit you when you were blindfolded?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You actually didn't see but you conclude that it must be the iron bar which you saw in the kitchen?

MR MORRIS: Yes, after being blindfolded I then bit the plastic, as I inhaled the plastic went to the face ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And you were later able to see that it was an iron bar.

MR MORRIS: It was taken out because I was suffocating and I saw it was an iron bar.

CHAIRPERSON: It was an iron bar.

MR TLOUBATLA: When I say hard I don't mean the iron bar, I mean was it applied hard on your body. In other words - how do I put it to you?

MR MORRIS: Yes it was hard.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you sustain any injuries as a result of that iron bar?

MR MORRIS: There'a a lot of injuries which I sustained because my legs cannot function correctly presently, my left arm is also weak because when I tried to block I sustained injuries. My cheekbones where I have the lower gums are not strong enough.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, why I'm specifically asking this particular question is that it's an iron bar, you say it was applied hard on various parts of your body including your head, but what surprised me is that you're not even sporting a scar on you face to show that you received this hard iron bar on the face?

MR MORRIS: Yes I don't have a scar because we don't heal the same. Our antibodies are not working to heal wounds the same way. You can be surprised now that I was shot in the head but you cannot point where I was shot. So does it surprise you?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes I'm surprised. Alright. In any event we are not for one moment saying that you were not assaulted but basically all what I want to - I'm putting this to you that do not try and exaggerate. In other words you are exaggerating some of the assaults.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman I'm not sure, with respect, this line of cross examination is getting anywhere. It's common cause there were assaulted, it's common cause there were very seriously assaults. Common cause that pliers were used to the man's testicles now to say that he's exaggerating a seriousness of assaults is really time consuming and not helping this committee with great respect. He must stick to the point. Whether this man is lying about torture, he can't be because it's common cause, whether he's lying about have survived a murder, he can't be. Let's move on please.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm thankful to Mr Brink for the - at least to bring me back to where we are. As I said that the applicants are not suggesting that you were not assaulted, but let me move on to this other situation. When you were apprehended by the applicants in Orlando East, did they mention any specific reason why they are apprehending your group?

MR MORRIS: The reason that they apprehended us, they said we burned a house in Orlando West.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright. During the course of your interrogation, during the course of your assault and humiliation were you ever asked about your political activities?

MR MORRIS: They said to us we were causing trouble in the location. We said what kind of a trouble is that. They then accused us of liking too much school.

MR TLOUBATLA: So what I want to - in fact my question is - let me be more specific, did they ask you about the UDF, whether you are members of the UDF, whether you are members of SOSCO, whether you are members of COSAS, whether you are members of political organisations that were operating in Soweto at the time?

MR MORRIS: We were told that we were members of the UDF, that is what we were told, we were not asked.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay, that's how you understood it, it doesn't matter. And now the next question that I want to ask you. Did they ask you about whom you are receiving your instructions, that is on a local level within the UDF or whatever organisation they are accusing you of belonging to?

MR MORRIS: Sir I don't know what kind of and instruction are we talking about because we said to them at Orlando East that we never burned the house, we even said to them inside the house, in the kitchen that we never burned the house. We even said to them in the bedroom that we have never burned the house, even in that place where they mentioned Glen's house, (indistinct) we have never burned a house.

MR TLOUBATLA: But from what transpired, my observation is that they didn't believe you at all, nothing whatever you said they didn't believe you that is why they proceeded with what they did. Am I correct?

MR MORRIS: They might have proceeded with the beating or the torturing maybe because they enjoyed it. We were just helpless as we are helpless now.

CHAIRPERSON: Really the question is, he's saying to you that it seems that despite what you said that you were not UDF, you did not burn the house, it would seem that they did not believe you, that is why they eventually shot you.

MR MORRIS: They went on torturing because we said no, all of us we were taken to two groups (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: But do you think they believe you when you told them look we didn't burn this house, we are not UDF, do you think they believe you?

MR MORRIS: I don't know sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that - you know you mentioned specific people, particularly in the house that this one did this, this one did this. Right, when you entered that place, how many people were there in that house?

MR MORRIS: As I've said earlier on that when we entered the house there were about nine to eleven men inside.

MR TLOUBATLA: Quite a number of faces?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Morris don't you think it is possible to confuse faces in that situation under that type of pressure?

MR MORRIS: You can confuse a face but you cannot confuse a person who has shot you, you cannot you. And the person who is now torturing you personally, you can not.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you recall the face or the name of the person who personally shot you?

MR MORRIS: I was shot by Hlasa.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right.

MR MORRIS: One shot which went through my knee, he fired to shoot but as I said earlier on the bullets just went aside and Mphoreng also shot me because the gun was not working very well, it jammed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. In all you were fired, you mentioned about eight shots that were fired at you.

MR MORRIS: I was hit by three, missed by seven.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa only fired at you once and shot you through the knee, is that what you're saying?

CHAIRPERSON: He's not saying that.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: He's saying it was Mr Hlasa who shot him in the knee. He wouldn't know whether among those other seven shots Mr Hlasa also shot, so don't put as if he said Hlasa shot him only once and never again. He's not saying that.

MR TLOUBATLA: I misunderstood him Mr Chairman, I'm sorry. Right, except Hlasa who shot at you, any other person that you recall who shot at you?

MR MORRIS: It was Hlasa, Mphoreng and the other person, I don't know who this person was.

MR TLOUBATLA: This place where you were shot at ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just on that aspect. You say you don't know the other person who shot you?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Is it because you cannot remember or is it because ... (intervention)

MR MORRIS: It's because he's not here.

ADV SIGODI: But if were to be shown to you, you'd be able to remember him?

MR MORRIS: I think I would.

ADV SIGODI: Because I think it's easier for you to remember Hlasa and Mphoreng because they are here?

MR MORRIS: No.

ADV SIGODI: Why particularly the two of them?

MR MORRIS: Hlasa was the first one who apprehended us at Orlando East, who used the firearm. The other two were following behind, the two applicants, the other two applicants and when we entered the house of maybe the so-called Jefferson Lingani, I don't know the person whether it' the right name, he was also the one who was having a gun in his hand forcing us to enter the house so I cannot forget that person.

ADV SIGODI: That is Hlasa the first applicant. No I'm just asking about the third person whom you do not seem to be able to remember. Why is it that you cannot remember him?

MR MORRIS: We were shot by three people and the other person stayed at the car.

ADV SIGODI: What role did he play?

MR MORRIS: Who?

ADV SIGODI: The third person.

MR MORRIS: The third person. I have no knowledge of the role that he played.

ADV SIGODI: So is it easier to remember the roles that the two applicant's played because they are here and then you cannot remember the role that the other person played because he is not here?

MR MORRIS: No Maam you must remember that when I tried to turn, because I was facing that way, the first bullet went into the right knee, the second one I tried to block and then when I tried to move, to move my head because I was feeling pain, I could not see that person.

ADV SIGODI: Ja but I mean he was also part of the group that was torturing you throughout the day, wasn't he?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And for people who had been torturing you maybe you could have even picked up their names?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And you don't forget such an incident, don't you? So what I want to know is who is this third person, why is it not easy for you to remember the third person if he also took part in torturing you?

MR MORRIS: I don't know his name, I just don't know his name because Hlasa was the first one who shot the first shot ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: If Hlasa was not here, would you have been able to remember his name?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Why particularly?

MR MORRIS: Because he was the one who came out of the passage and said: (indistinct), give me a cigarette and we said we are not smoking.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

MR MALAN: You're so sure that you would have remembered Mr Hlasa's name, but in the beginning of your testimony you couldn't remember his name, you referred to him as Hlese and it was asked?

MR MORRIS: Yes I said it was Hlasa or Hlese, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: This names, the first applicant we know now is Joseph Hlasa and the second applicant is Mphoreng. When did you know their names?

MR MORRIS: During the interrogation they would then call each other because the other name which cropped up during the interrogation it was the one of Kabelo, I don't know (indistinct) and also Pitso. Even the one of Joseph.

CHAIRPERSON: The one of the people that you can't remember, was it not Pitso, was it not Kabelo, it wasn't one of those?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Morris do you know who's Pitso?

MR MORRIS: Pitso I think is the second person.

MR TLOUBATLA: Who is that?

MR MORRIS: Who is it, no Pitso I think is Joseph, it's Hlasa, Joseph.

MR TLOUBATLA: Are you certain?

MR MORRIS: Yes, I'm certain.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right. You know basically you are correct by saying Pitso is Mr Hlasa but I picked the fact that you're just simply guessing on names?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: Now because you say, you mentioned that during the interrogation or during the time when you were making statements the name of Pitso, the name of Hlasa, the name of whoever came out as often as all that. (indistinct) you were making a difference between Hlasa and Pitso. Do you initially it was not the same person?

MR MORRIS: No.

MR TLOUBATLA: It triggered now that after I had asked you the question?

MR MORRIS: No, I don't confuse their names, no.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, and I'll tell you that you didn't pick up the name of Hlasa in, when they were taking there, definitely it's not possible because even in their statement, if you could look at the statements, ... (intervention)

MR MORRIS: I don't have their statements.

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, they refer to him as Pitso, that is among his friends he's known as Pitso and even in the statement they mentioned the name Pitso, so you couldn't have picked the name Hlasa from their conversation.

MR MORRIS: If my memory is serving me correctly, I think I could have picked out the wrong name but my memory serves me well.

MR TLOUBATLA: You are just simply referring to him now simply because he's here in front of you, that's basically what it is. I put it to you that in that situation where there are so many people, you are under such tremendous torture, definitely your memory, you vision, everything is impaired so terribly that you are bound to confuse not only faces but names as well.

MR MORRIS: But there are things that you cannot forget. There are things that you cannot forget.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just lastly, just to wind up the questioning. This place where you were shot. How well lit was it?

MR MORRIS: It was dark.

MR TLOUBATLA: Very dark isn't it?

MR MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you are able, in that darkness, to see that Pitso is firing a shot at me, Mphoreng is also firing a shot at me and how do you do that? How do you manage that?

MR MORRIS: Yes I said earlier on that I tried to move the face and even the first shot I was looking at the person but I could not feel whether I was shot or not because I was told to sleep after being shot, the first shot so when moving I tried to move and then when I tried to block the bullet with my hand, that is when I can say I see this person, I can identify this person.

MR TLOUBATLA: The point where they were standing and the point where you were sitting, how far I mean what's the distance?

MR MORRIS: Is it possible to demonstrate it to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Listen, just a minute. Mr Tloubatla unless you tell us the importance and the relevance of this question, I'm not going to allow that question because your client's don't deny that they shot these people, except Mr Thandakubona who says he wasn't there and as far as I can recall, this witness so far hasn't said that Mr Thandakubona was there.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter whether the witness makes a mistake in saying that Hlasa shot me, it was Hlasa who shot me in the leg and whereas in fact he was shot by Mphoreng or some other person or by Sam or somebody. What difference does it make, they were all on a common purpose, they acted on the base of common purpose in killing these people, it doesn't matter who shot what.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't think it's really material. Alright, just one little detail then. At Shawella, at this house where you were taken to, were all the victims taken out of the cars into the house or were just some of you taken into the house?

MR MORRIS: When we reached that place I was taken from one boot to another boot and I tried to move, while I moved from one boot to another boot Edwin Nkomo was instructed to get into the house.

MR TLOUBATLA: So in other words all what you know is that Vuyani was instructed to get into the house and you remained in the boot of the car?

MR MORRIS: I was first taken out, Vuyani second and then Sekano the third one.

MR TLOUBATLA: So you don't know of any other person who was taken into the house, that is among the victims?

MR MORRIS: I was told to face down, not to look on the sides but I could hear that he was instructed to get into the house.

MR TLOUBATLA: You don't follow what I'm saying. I say except Vuyani, you don't know of any of the victims that went into the house?

MR MORRIS: Yes I cannot account for that sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: I have no further question sir.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bink?

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Just one little aspect. Were any of you wearing UDF T-shirts?

MR MORRIS: No, no Madam no.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just follow on that. Nobody had a UDF T-shirt on under their clothes?

MR MORRIS: None.

MR MALAN: And nobody was given as old clothes a UDF T-shirt to put on?

MR MORRIS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when this - we were told that you were interrogated because they wanted to know whether you were members of UDF or whatever and we were told you were assaulted in the process. You yourself have said to us that you were assaulted an questioned whether you were UDF members. What I want to know from you is, in the process of interrogation is there a time when anyone of you admitted that they were UDF members or SOSCO?

MR MORRIS: No there was no time when one of us said he's a member of the UDF, there's not time. The answer was always no, no, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Despite this severe assault, none of you under pain, even if it were to be under pain, admitted that they were UDF?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the process of being assaulted, were they not trying to force you to admit that you were UDF?

MR MORRIS: They were trying to do that but we said no.

CHAIRPERSON: You, despite the severe pains, despite the pliers for example on private parts, it was never admitted by either you or anyone of you that you were UDF members?

MR MORRIS: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, let me sum you up. Your evidence is not to us as follows: This people wanted us to admit that we were UDF, we denied, they assaulted us very badly with iron bars, pliers and all that and because of that we admitted that we're UDF because we were under severe pain. That is not your evidence? You evidence is that pain, notwithstanding, you never admitted that you're UDF members?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is it likely though, I mean you were so severely assaulted, you were even screaming so that the neighbours could hear and they were forcing you to be a UDF member. Isn't the likelihood that you would, all be it under pain, you would admit that you're UDF members?

MR MORRIS: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway that's not your evidence you've said. Do you want to re-examine Mr - Mr Tloubatla what's the problem?

MR TLOUBATLA: I wanted to follow up - perhaps I can - there is something I wanted to follow up based on the questioning now.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you converse it yourself during the proceedings?

MR TLOUBATLA: Well it's simply because it is following up on the cross examination of Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This issue of assault was conversed tremendously by anyway let's hear what you want to say.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA:

Mr Morris despite the fact that you were separated, you were in different rooms, are you saying that none of the other victims admitted that he was a member of UDF?

MR MORRIS: No one admitted.

MR TLOUBATLA: How can you say that if you were not in the same room?

MR MORRIS: When they took turns the other people then said your friends are saying you are UDF members, what do you say and then we would say no and then the interrogation goes on again and again.

MR TLOUBATLA: (indistinct)

NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR TLOUBATLA

MR MALAN: Mr Morris Mr Ameen in his cross examination of some of the applicants put it to them that there was no evidence of the house having been bombed when you get there. You confirmed this and you refer to the painting but he also put it to the applicants that your version is that the house indeed was bombed subsequent or at some later stage this house was bombed. Who told him that, did you know that Jeff's house was bombed later?

MR MORRIS: That is what we heard when I was in hospital but I have no knowledge of that.

MR MALAN: One of the Exhibits, I think Exhibit H, that Mr Tloubatla held out to you, the Star of the 26th of October 1986, he read there and he talked about the reprisals and that the house the following night was bombed. Is your recollection that that refers to that following night, the bombing?

MR MORRIS: No I don't know sir.

MR MALAN: You don't know when?

MR MORRIS: Yes, it was when I was admitted at hospital, I think it was on Friday (indistinct) Sekano, I then met my father and then on Saturday he came back with my mother and also on Sunday even the whole week.

MR MALAN: This question of the bombing and which house it is, I just want to ask you a question or two about that still. The house of Jeff, I remember correctly evidence was given that that was an ordinary four roomed house?

MR MORRIS: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: It had only two bedrooms or would it have had a third bedroom?

MR MORRIS: I don't know because the houses in Orlando West are not the same. We have three roomed house, we have five roomed houses.

MR MALAN: I think Mr Tloubatla if you can assist me in memory I think the evidence was that it was a four roomed house?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes with a - the toilet is inside the house if I'm ...

MR MALAN: My question really relates to the two bedrooms. You say that the bedroom within which you were assaulted or tortured, there was no sign of a burning or a bombing?

MR MORRIS: No sir, no.

MR MALAN: And you have no knowledge of the second bedroom of what that looked like?

MR MORRIS: No.

MR MALAN: You were never into the second bedroom?

MR MORRIS: No.

MR MALAN: And in the kitchen there was no sign of a bombing?

MR MORRIS: No.

MR MALAN: You didn't see glass anywhere over the place?

MR MORRIS: No, no sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: No, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be a convenient stage to adjourn and then maybe start at quarter to two. Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I've consulted with my client, the second victim will not be testifying this afternoon. I do not think that his testimony, if he does testify, will take the matter any further and that is it from our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then that would conclude these proceedings and do you propose to submit a written argument?

MR AMEEN: Yes Mr Chairman, I discussed that with my colleague and I suggest that we be allowed to do that within a period of whatever is a reasonable time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I confirm everything that has been said by my learned friend and in as far as the submissions are concerned, I'm also confirming that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink do you prefer to make oral submissions because you can do now if you want to quickly make oral submissions?

MR BRINK: No Mr Chairman I'm not prepared at this stage to make oral submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR BRINK: In so far as the time is concerned, today is the 10th of June, possibly if submissions could be lodged with the Amnesty Committee by not later than say Friday the 10th of July, would that be enough time for you.

MR AMEEN: That suits me.

MR TLOUBATLA: That will be sufficient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla when do you think you can deliver you written argument?

MR TLOUBATLA: Probably within 2 weeks or so, I will be able to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us the dates there because we (indistinct) a date.

MR BRINK: 2 Weeks would be the 24th of June, but then allowing for postal delays - they can fax them.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. What date are we getting there Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: 2 Weeks from today will be the 24th of June, Wednesday the 24th.

CHAIRPERSON: And what's the next Monday?

MR BRINK: The next Monday is the 29th?

CHAIRPERSON: Of June?

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla would you see to it that we receive your written argument by the 29th?

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, I think it is possible. (indistinct) that I can't produce, if I'm sending it out on the 24th and whether it will be there by the 29th and in fact I don't know how or where we're going to send it?

MR BRINK: If the written submissions could be sent, as I indicated to you earlier, to the Executive Secretary, Amnesty Committee, 106 Adderly Street, Cape Town.

MR TLOUBATLA: That will be possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we note the 26th of June Mr Tloubatla and will you then, before you ... (intervention)

MR BRINK: 29th.

CHAIRPERSON: 29th I'm sorry. Before you, or at least at the same time as you will be sending them to us, will you please give a copy to Mr Ameen so that he can have a week to finalise his own (indistinct) he may wish to say something about your written argument? So Mr Ameen you (indistinct) the following week then? That will be the first Monday of July.

MR BRINK: That will be the 6th of July.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink please do take the telephone numbers and particulars of both Mr Ameen and Mr Tloubatla, very often we have difficulties later in contacting the attorneys concerned.

MR BRINK: I've got that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we will reserve judgement then in this case until we receive written argument. And before we formally adjourn we would like to thank everybody who was involved in putting up these proceedings and perhaps also in particular we appreciate the co-operation we received from the public. Cases of this nature are very difficult, they bring back old memories and open wounds which have temporarily healed and sometimes you understand why people from the audience or the victims sometimes they behave in the way that they've been doing but it needs to be mentioned that we appreciate their co-operation, they've been very co-operative and we appreciate that. Thank you very much. We will now adjourn and resume as soon as possible to start with the next matter.

MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman I understand that counsel for some of the applicants just wish to have a word with you in chambers before we proceed with the next application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS