ON RESUMPTION
ADV PRIOR: Page Hlalele Hlesesi, that's Amnesty Number 5020/97. Evidence Leader is Advocate P.C. Prior.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Honourable Chair. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter, thank you.
ADV PRIOR: May I just place on record the panel is as in the previous matter. Madam Chair, may I indicate that the relevant Section 19 notices were despatched to the victims who are present, the next of kin of the deceased are present in person and maybe just for the public, the amnesty application of Mr Hlelesi revolves around the death ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: On your front page of your application Mr Prior.
CHAIRPERSON: Your microphone is off Mr Prior.
ADV PRIOR: I beg your pardon, Madam Chair. May I just recap? The amnesty application of Mr Hlelesi involves the death of Mrs van Niewenhuizen, she was 83 at the time of her death in the Brakpan area. This application indicates that he was a member of the PAC, that he and others went on an operation to obtain, ostensibly to obtain firearms for use in the liberation struggle. Thank you Madam Chair.
MR MALAN: Mr Prior, the application that I have before me says he was a supporter, not a member.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you. Madam Chair, I noticed that that supporter was underlined. Yes he was a supporter, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Prior I don't think it will take the matter any further but I think in response to questions that were put by the Amnesty Committee's administrative staff, he did say that he was a member of the PAC but that's neither here nor there, we will still hear him.
ADV PRIOR: Madam Chair, that's why I said - that was I'd recalled that I'd seen that, I couldn't quite put my finger, I'm indebted to the Committee for that, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: You're welcome. Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee. Madam Chair unfortunately as I indicated I will lead the applicant out of the cuff, I don't have any return submission, I don't have affidavit to facilitate the whole proceedings, unfortunately. May he be sworn in Madam Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Southern Sotho, Madam Chair thank you.
PAGE HLALE HLELESI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Hlelesi, is it correct you were born on the 28th December 1965?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were a supporter of PAC?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you start supporting PAC?
MR HLELESI: I started supporting the PAC during 1993.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what made you support the PAC?
MR HLELESI: I was recruited by one of the members of the PAC, he actually encouraged me to support the PAC and at my place there were members of the PAC with my family.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I didn't get the name of the person who recruited him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, he has not yet mentioned it, I'm still also waiting.
Can you tell the Committee the name of the person who recruited you and what made you to support PAC, what did he tell you that made you to support PAC?
MR HLELESI: Because of the situation that prevailed at that time, he encouraged me to get in touch with the leaders or the leader of the PAC and the two of them encouraged me to support the PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee the name of the person who recruited you?
MR HLELESI: Moses Mogagi but he was known as Morapapa.
ADV BOSMAN: Can we just have the name of the other person too please?
MR HLELESI: Moses Mogaga.
ADV BOSMAN: And the second person to whom you were introduced?
MR HLELESI: The second name is Able. Moses Mogagi was also known as Morapapa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: The Committee, the Member of the Committee what he wants is that you said Morapapa or Moses Mogagi introduced you to another person now they want the second person you were introduced to.
MR HLELESI: Just to clarify that issue, the person that I met first was Able and Able introduced me to Morapapa who was in command of Able or the unit that Able belonged to.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, again I'm going back to my question that what made you to support PAC? What did they tell you that made you to support PAC?
MR HLELESI: I was briefed that the PAC was a liberation movement, to liberate the Black nation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: The Committee knows that it was a liberation movement as well as ANC was a liberation movement, but what I want to know why specifically, what attracted you to support PAC specifically? There were other liberation movements, PAC, ANC, AZAPO, SACP?
MR HLELESI: But I also had a desire to join the PAC during that time.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So there's nothing in particular that attracted you to PAC?
MR HLELESI: I don't think I understand you.
CHAIRPERSON: May I come to your assistance Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: What, Mr Hlelesi, what your counsel wants to know was why did you join the PAC and not for instance the ANC? You obviously must have been aware that there were quite a number of liberation movements at the time when you joined the PAC in 1993. Now what made you to be attracted to the PAC and not to the other liberation movements?
MR HLELESI: It's because members of my family or all the members of my family were PAC members and I felt that I should not be different from them, I should also join the PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So your evidence is that you became a supporter from June 1993 until this time of this incident on the 6th May 1994 you were still a supporter of PAC?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now with regard to this incident can you tell the Committee how did you come about to attack this home in Brakpan. Who came up with this idea, who ordered it?
MR HLELESI: Moses Magagi gave us the orders and he was known to me as Morapapa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did he give you the order?
MR HLELESI: It was during the month of January 1994.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you indicate to the Committee was it the beginning of January, mid January, the end of January?
MR HLELESI: It was mid January.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I take it Mr Hlelesi at that time you were full on PAC activities of PAC, am I correct?
MR HLELESI: I was a new recruit so I did have any clarity at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: What date - can we contextualise the evidence Mr Mbandazayo? What period are we talking of? Let's talk in respect of dates and months.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way Mr Hlelesi, at the time in January when you received this order from - you allege that you received this order from Morapapa, you were a supporter of PAC from June. At that time you said you were a new recruit, now what I'm asking from you is whether at that time in January when you received the order, were you following the activities of PAC or as a new recruit you were keen to know what is it that PAC, makes it tick, that is what is involved in PAC, what PAC stands for?
MR HLELESI: As I've already explained that I was still a new recruit so I was not fully conversant with the PAC activities.
CHAIRPERSON: What were you recruited to do Mr Hlelesi, what did Mr Mogaga recruit you to do?
MR HLELESI: To further the struggle of the PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by furthering the struggle of the PAC, what did you have to do? What road did you as Mr Hlelesi had to do in furthering the struggle of the PAC?
MR HLELESI: What I mean by that is that whenever orders were issued to me, were given to me I got to execute such orders.
CHAIRPERSON: In January 1994 what orders were given to you by Mr Mogaga?
MR HLELESI: He gave me an order to go to Brakpan and look for guns in Brakpan, that is myself and other members of my unit. He was already from that place and he saw that it was fit for us to go there and seek those guns.
CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about January 1994?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed then Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now as a follow up, you said it was in January 1994 and did he tell you what was the purpose of securing you the arms from that house, that home?
MR HLELESI: He told us that the organisation of the movement wanted to have some arms and ammunition.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you, Mr Hlelesi, at that time were you watching something like - did you listen to radios and T.V's, watch T.V. and read newspapers?
MR HLELESI: No that is not correct, I never read newspapers.
MR MBANDAZAYO: You never watched T.V.?
MR HLELESI: It was pretty scarce that I watched T.V.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Listened to radio?
MR HLELESI: I used to listen to music programmes, not with regard to news bulletins or any current affairs.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, did you at that time aware that everybody was preparing for elections, were you aware at that time?
MR HLELESI: Yes I had got wind of that, that people were preparing themselves for the coming elections.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you also aware that PAC was also preparing for elections?
MR HLELESI: Just to clarify that issue I knew about that but I didn't have any deep clarity with regard to that aspect.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that on the 16th January 1994 PAC suspended the armed struggle?
MR HLELESI: I did not know that at that time.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you then Mr Hlelesi, you were given this order in January by Mr Mogaga, can you tell the Committee why did it take you so long to implement or to execute the order, January, February, March, April, May, on the fourth month which is the 6th May, why did it take you so long to implement the - to execute the order?
MR HLELESI: My commander Moses Mogagi said that we should take our time to execute this order. Even at that time we had not yet been able to obtain arms and ammunition to be used for the particular operation so we first had to obtain arms and ammunition but he did point out that we had to execute the order.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you executed the order on the 6th May?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I will ask the same question I have asked you to clarify to the Committee, at that time it was 21 days before the date of the election, were you aware what was happening in the country at that time, the mood, that people were preparing, gearing themselves to vote, the political parties had registered and their supporters were canvassing for election?
MR HLELESI: Yes that is correct, people were preparing themselves for the imminent elections but during that very same time there was a spate of bombings that took place as well as members of the AWB who were conducting a reign of terror.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you at that stage enquire from Mr Mogaga that now is - at that stage was almost before the election was the position of PAC, PAC is still in involved with the armed struggle, did you ask him about that?
MR HLELESI: No, at the time he was not present for me to have been able to ask him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. How many were you for this operation?
MR HLELESI: There were five of us.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you all members of PAC or were there any people who were not members of PAC?
MR HLELESI: Four were members of PAC but the one wasn't.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was not a member of PAC?
MR HLELESI: It was Phineas.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What type of weapons were you armed with when you went there?
MR HLELESI: It was shotguns or pistols, it's not clear.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was Mr Mogaga aware that when you go to this operation there will be a person who is not a member of PAC or supporter of PAC?
MR HLELESI: Yes he was aware, we particularly asked him because we did not have transport to ferry us to the place and we required a person who had a car to take us to the particular place.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was commanding this operation?
MR HLELESI: I did not hear your question could you please repeat?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was commanding this particular operation you are applying amnesty for?
MR HLELESI: Mr Mogaga is the one who issued the orders and I could say he was our commander.
MR MBANDAZAYO: You've already told the Committee that he was not there, I'm asking on this particular operation when you went to this home in Brakpan, who was commanding? You said you were five of you, was Mr Mogaga present? Was he present?
MR HLELESI: It was Able.
CHAIRPERSON: Able who? What's Able's surname?
MR HLELESI: I do not know his surname.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who did the reconnaissance of the place?
MR HLELESI: Mr Morapapa went there first and he came back and went there again together with Able and thereafter it was myself, us and Able who went there.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you be specific so that the Committee, all of us who were not there, we want to know what actually happened. When was it that Morapapa went there, was it in January or February or March or April, when did you also go there, can you throw some light?
MR HLELESI: He went during the month of December, I think the year was 1993.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, when did you go there yourself before you went to ...[indistinct] the mission?
MR HLELESI: We went during the month of January. I think it was towards the end of January but I'm not sure about the date. Just to go and reconnaise the place before the operation itself.
MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] went there again?
MR HLELESI: Yes we did go there thereafter.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When was that?
MR HLELESI: It was a day before the 6th May.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell - during the reconnaissance what did you observe there in the house?
MR HLELESI: When we went there we wanted to check as to whether it was a busy area and we needed to look at the area in order for us to be able to plan ahead.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you made the reconnaissance then, can you take us through what were the instructions, what was going to be your role when you arrived there, tell the Committee what part did you take and Able and others?
MR HLELESI: Are you referring to the 6th?
MR MBANDAZAYO: The day of the incident.
MR HLELESI: When we got there we got out of the car, that is the four of us, myself, Able, Phillip and Kuku and Phineas was left in the car. The yard there was quite massive. Able and Phillip entered the yard. I was left behind with Kuku but we were a little distance apart. We went in through some corrugated iron door. Able as well as Phillip proceeded inside and I followed them. Able and Phillip pressed the alarm button. There was a houseman in the yard who was sitting on the stoep or next to the stoep, I think he was cleaning the stoep and we went back. We were left behind and we kept a watch because there was a certain lady who was in the swimming pool and we wanted to watch her movements so as not to disturb the other ones who had gone into the house. I didn't pay much attention to what happened inside the house because I was keeping a watch outside the house and we were watching the movements of the lady who was sitting beside the swimming pool. That lady approached us and we apprehended her. We kept her under a watchful eye so that the other ones could come back with the guns. I think she heard that there was some gunfire from inside the house and when they came out of the house they were already running. They said that we should leave the place and we released our hostage and we fled the area and went back to our respective places.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you get anything from the house.
MR HLELESI: No there was nothing.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you what happened inside the house?
MR HLELESI: Yes they did explain to me.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what did they tell you?
MR HLELESI: When they explained to me they said when they go into the house they pointed a certain woman or they pointed a firearm so that she could show them the owner of the house and the woman said there is no other person besides herself and she wanted to grab the gun that Able had in his possession and as he was getting hold of the gun the trigger was pulled and the lady was shot.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just before I ask you the last question, I wanted to ask in your application at page 3, paragraph 11(a), a question has been asked "were there omission committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body or liberation movement, the department or security force concerned" and you wrote there "it was an order from me" and in brackets "Page Hlalele"
MR HLELESI: Because I did not understand English I asked one of my co-prisoners to fill in the application form or assist me in filling in the application form but I gave him the details because I had asked him to fill in the application form for me, I think that's how he filled it in.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that he made a mistake not to say it was Moses Mogaga or Morapapa who gave the order and he put in your name? Did you tell him the person who gave you the order?
MR HLELESI: He asked me and I explained to him that they were encouraged by him but he had no clarity.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just before this last question Mr Hlalele, you are before this Committee and you are applying for amnesty for this incident, can you tell the Committee why should it grant you amnesty for this incident?
MR HLELESI: I'm requesting the Committee to grant me amnesty because what I did I did under the auspices of the organisation to which I belonged. I was a relatively new recruit and a number of things or operations that were undertaken were done before I knew a lot or before I got fully conversant with the principles or the guidelines of the organisation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally Mr Hlalele what do you say to the families of the deceased who are here?
MR HLELESI: I'll first start asking for forgiveness from God who has created us all as elements of human nature, I have done wrong, I'm not proud of my deed and come to the members of the family that I have put through so much pain. I know that it's not easy to deal with the pain because I also lost a parent or if I lost a parent I would feel in the very same way that they do and my relatives would have been disturbed by the incident. I'm asking for forgiveness to the individual members of the family, that they should find it in their hearts to forgive me. With those few words I'm saying that whatever happened in the past should not be repeated in the present and it should not happen in the future. I do understand their pain, the pain of having lost a parent and I further request the Committee that is presiding over my case now, I'm asking for their forgiveness as well as members of the public or listeners, the entire African nation, I'm also asking for their forgiveness. With those few words I'll say thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Prior?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
Mr Hlelesi, was this your first and only operation as a PAC recruit?
MR HLELESI: That is correct, sir.
ADV PRIOR: What training did you receive within the ranks of the PAC?
MR HLELESI: I never received any formal training.
ADV PRIOR: So - and if I understand your evidence on this day that you went to rob this house in Brakpan, you never carried a firearm with you on that day, it was your colleagues that were armed, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: I did have a firearm with.
ADV PRIOR: But at your trial in the Supreme Court you denied that you were armed, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: But it wasn't true?
MR HLELESI: Yes that was not true.
ADV PRIOR: And you also at that trial you told the court that you were forced to participate, you were forced to go along. I think Able threatened to shoot you if you didn't go along with him because you wanted to withdraw from the operation to rob, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: No that is not true, whatever I said in court was not true because even if I had told the truth I was going to get convicted anyway.
ADV PRIOR: Do you agree that on that aspect again that you were forced to go along to participate was also untrue?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: And you also told the court that the blood on your clothing was from a nosebleed that you had sustained when you fell. That was also untrue, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: Yes that is correct.
ADV PRIOR: Why must this Committee today believe you?
MR HLELESI: Because I've come to tell the truth and that is why I have disclosed the truth, whatever I said in court or some of the things that I said in court were not true but I'm prepared to tell the truth here and now.
ADV PRIOR: You haven't told us everything Mr Hlelesi, why did you tell the Committee that you entered into the house?
MR HLELESI: I never went into the house.
ADV PRIOR: Where did the blood come from?
MR HLELESI: I hit or assaulted the one or the woman who was sitting beside the swimming pool, that's how I got the blood on my clothes.
ADV PRIOR: That was Emily Mokoena, she was an elderly black woman is that correct?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: And you struck her on the head repeatedly until she bled from those injuries, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: I struck her only once and the blood splattered and Cook was close to me at that time, also assaulted the woman with butt of the gun.
ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible]
MR HLELESI: I grabbed her and she tried to struggle free, I think I hit her with a fist and during the struggle I think her forehead or part of her face hit my chest, that's how I got the blood on myself.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you strike her?
MR HLELESI: She did not want to co-operate.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean she did not want to co-operate, what co-operation did you expect from her?
MR HLELESI: We instructed her to sit down and not to move but she decided to move nevertheless and I ran after her and grabbed her. She still struggled to free herself, that's when I started assaulting her and Cook also took part in the assault.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?
ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chairperson.
You deny that you shot at the deceased is that correct? You still maintain that it wasn't you?
MR HLELESI: I never shot the deceased.
ADV PRIOR: But you knew that she would be - there was a likelihood or a chance that she would be killed because you took weapons with?
MR HLELESI: Yes we did have firearms but it was not our intention to kill her.
ADV PRIOR: Well just explain to me, what are you asking - are you asking for amnesty for the murder or the killing of the deceased? That's what you're asking for amnesty for?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: Now you say that you'd been given instructions in January of '94 to go to this specific house and rob weapons, is that correct? Mogaga had given you instructions in January? Was it to go to this specific house in Brakpan?
MR HLELESI: That is correct because he went there first and thereafter he went with Able and he showed the place to Able.
ADV PRIOR: And then you all went the day before the actual shooting and you also satisfied yourself that that was the right target?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: But the previous day, the day before you went there posing as inspectors from the Department of Labour, did you not?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: You never made enquiries about firearms did you on that day?
MR HLELESI: No we did not because there were people who were already suspecting us and we didn't want to ask too many questions.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say there already were people who were suspecting you? Suspecting you of what and how did you know there were already people who were suspecting you?
MR HLELESI: The woman who was present on that particular day, she said that she did not trust us.
CHAIRPERSON: And this she said on the 5th of May was it?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And that was the first time that you became aware that somebody was suspecting you so how can you say that already on the 5th you knew that people were already suspecting you of something?
MR HLELESI: Yes it does happen that when you get to a place even if it's for the first time maybe you look suspicious or the person just doesn't trust you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi, you are giving evidence and you are saying you already knew it was within your personal knowledge that you had been suspected. How could you have known that, how could that have been within your personal knowledge?
MR HLELESI: We were already there inside the yard, that is on that particular day, we were at the particular place.
CHAIRPERSON: You are being asked about the 5th May and you have stated that by then you knew you knew you were being suspected. How could you have known on the 5th May that you have been suspected?
MR HLELESI: We got a certain woman. She told us that even if we can say we are inspectors but she suspected that we were not but we could continue asking questions, that is why I say she already suspected us or she was suspecting us that we were not inspectors.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you may proceed.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you. Mr Phineas Mokoena was the man whose vehicle you hired to take you to that house is that correct?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: And you told him that you required his vehicle to go and fetch some property that was at that place, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: It wasn't true, was it?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: And you also tried to influence Mr Mokoena to abscond in other words not to give evidence against you at your trial, is that correct?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
ADV PRIOR: What I find strange that on the 6th May, weren't the elections already been held? On the 27th April, the elections was the matter of world news, the whole world was focused on this country. You must have been aware of that event is that not so?
MR HLELESI: Yes I did get to know about that.
ADV PRIOR: And as it was suggested, as it was indicated by your counsel, in January I think the PAC had suspended the armed struggle, it had at least made an announcement and that participation in the elections was to go full ahead? Were you aware of that announcement by the PAC?
MR HLELESI: As I've already explained that as I was still a new recruit and I did not know a number of things within the organisation, even the issue of the suspension of the armed struggle was known to me at a later stage. Probably the commander knew but he never gave a specific instruction.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just - well Madam Chair, I just want to correct something which was done, I'm - so even the Committee did not correct me, I think I mislead you during my - I thought that it was 6th April when I said 21 days, in fact I should have said after the election so I think I made a mistake there Madam Chair. But I wanted to stress it was after even the elections what happened, thank you.
ADV PRIOR: I'm indebted to Mr Mbandazayo, I think it's clear that he made a mistake.
Did you vote on the 27th April?
MR HLELESI: No I did not.
ADV PRIOR: What political objective were you trying to achieve by robbing this home and killing this old woman, 83 years of age I understand when she died? Can you explain to us what the political objective was and if you can do that maybe also explain to the Committee how this act of yours on the 6th May furthered that political objective?
MR HLELESI: As I've already explained that I was still a new recruit. I acted under instructions that were issued to me by my commander, Moses Mogagi. I was going to establish a lot of things thereafter. It's not easy to know a lot of things if you're not a member of a particular organisation but once you join the organisation you are briefed, you learn a lot about the organisation as well the organisation's operations and guidelines or principles.
ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible] answer, I'm asking you specifically what was your political objective and how did robbing and or killing this woman further that political objective, if you had one?
MR MALAN: Mr Prior, I think the applicant made clear that he sees himself as having acted under orders, having joined and I think that was his reply.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Prior, just on that point?
Mr Hlelesi, are you being honest when you respond in that fashion now when you are giving your viva voce evidence? Are you being honest when you say you were acting on instructions and knew nothing? Are you being honest with this Committee?
MR HLELESI: Yes I am being honest because I took an oath that I'm going to tell the truth.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you remember when you also completed your application form, you completed that after having taken an oath, the application form?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Pursuant to that application, the Amnesty Committee on the 29th April 1998 wrote a letter to you in which it addressed certain questions to you, is that not so?
...[inaudible] you responded on the 5th October 1998 responding specifically to questions which had been put to you by the Amnesty Committee, is that not so?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] response you were still being honest with the Amnesty Committee, am I correct?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And a question was put to you on page 6, paragraph 4.9 and I will read the question that was put to you and your response thereto.
"In your application you also state you were personally involved in purchasing of arms to further your objectives"
Then the question proceeds:
"What were these objectives, what happened to the arms that you purchased if arms were distributed to other persons? Give us their names and addresses and positions within the PAC."
Your response appears on page 8 and your response is as follows:
"My objectives were to undermine the former settler regime to use APLA offensive attacks and to secure and maintain the complete unit of the movement. Arms were given to my commander, Morapapa, and he is the one who knew what he did with them. I am yours, sincerely."
MR HLELESI: Just to clarify this issue, I'm not fully conversant with English, I thought that I was clarifying myself. I was supposed to have given these to him, not that I gave them to him.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Mr Prior here has asked you what political objective did you hope to achieve when you committed the offences in respect of which you are seeking amnesty. Now it is in respect of that that I am putting these questions to you. I'm just concerned about your response because your response now sought to elicit the evidence that you knew nothing about any political objectivity that you were seeking to achieve because you were merely acting on instructions and this is not what appears in your application. In fact the body of your application is full of your own political objectivity as you saw it, even at page 3 if you want me to refer you thereto? At paragraph 10(a)
"State political objective sought to be achieved"
You say:
"Under oppression and frustration of apartheid my aim and objective was to achieve freedom. My organisation, the PAC, was disorganised in my area so I wanted to support it."
Is that not your evidence?
MR HLELESI: Yes that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll request you to stick to what you have stated in your application and if you do deviate you must give us an explanation why you are now deviating from the evidence that you have already deposed to, which is before us.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
Mr Hlelesi, let's cut to the chase. The reasons why you committed these acts that you give in your amnesty application at page 3 and at page 8 of the bundle as read out to you by Madam Chair clearly are not correct, are untrue, because the white settler regime had been defeated on the 27th April, eight days before you committed these acts. Majority ruled, the liberation struggle had been won. Why would you then have said you committed these acts to achieve freedom and to overthrow or undermine the settler regime? The war had been won?
MR HLELESI: As you are saying the battle had been won but the war was not yet over because there was a spate of bombings that took place during that time and you cannot say that the war or the battle had been won. As far as we were concerned the struggle was still continuing in according with Moses Mogaga's instructions and we were furthering the aims of the organisation under the instructions given to us by our commander.
ADV PRIOR: I want to suggest to you and it appears to me from the reading of the papers before us, is that you have attempted to jump on the bandwagon and have tried to use the PAC to explain or to found a political reason in order to escape the very lengthy term of imprisonment of 40 years that you received for these coldblooded and callous crimes that you committed and that is the reason why you say you belonged to the PAC and you committed these acts in the name of the PAC. Do you want to respond to that?
MR HLELESI: I totally disagree with you on that aspect. I was a member of the PAC and I did all that I did under the auspices of the PAC and I was a known member of the PAC. Even the people who know me or who knew me as a member of the PAC would not have come here if they did not know that I was a member of the PAC.
ADV PRIOR: Moses Mogaga, did you ever see him again?
MR HLELESI: No.
ADV PRIOR: What happened to the other members of your unit, Able and Cookoo and these other persons, what happened to them?
MR HLELESI: When I got arrested they fled.
ADV PRIOR: Why didn't you at your trial indicate that you were a member of the PAC, that you were a soldier and that you did these acts in pursuance of a political objective on behalf of the PAC, why did you not say that if that was the case? We heard the earlier application of Mr Maseko, that at the very outset of his trial indicated that he was an APLA soldier?
MR HLELESI: At that time I knew that PAC was a banned organisation and if I had explained or divulged the fact that I was a member of the PAC I would probably have been sentenced to a maximum number of years because it was a banned organisation then.
ADV PRIOR: Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior. Ms Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: I have no questions Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi, in your application, in your written application, you have stated that you received information from a garden boy, I think that appears on page 7 or 8? Yes page 7. You say that you received information from a former garden worker of the victim's family about the presence of arms and that's how you started targeting the place and conducting your reconnaissance. When did you receive this information?
MR HLELESI: The information or I received the information because the people who went there beforehand, Morapapa, then the second time he went with Able. As to the information and when I got it, I only got it at a later stage after the operation had already ....[inaudible] that they got information from the worker who was there. All the information came to me after the operation, that is why I'm saying I got the information in that sort of fashion.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying you received information post facto the execution of the operation about the presence of arms and that's how you came to target the house after you had carried on your operation. How is that possible, I find that completely illogical?
MR HLELESI: I'm talking about myself personally. Maybe if I had written this in Sotho I would have been able to express myself properly and effectively. I got the information when he told me that himself and Morapapa received some information from the garden boy. Because I was also involved, this is how I put it, that we received the information from the garden boy.
CHAIRPERSON: But did Morapapa tell you how he received information which enabled him to target the house? Did he ever divulge to you how? So how did you come to say something about information having been received from a garden worker, a former garden worker of the house that you targeted?
MR HLELESI: When I questioned Able as to how they got the information of what was inside the house, that is when he explained to me that he had been told by Morapapa that he got the information from the garden boy but he had been instructed not to tell me but anyway he did tell me, that is after the commission of the act. I thought they were probably hiding the fact from me because I was still a new recruit and they did not fully trust me with that kind of information.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you disclose that in your application?
MR HLELESI: ...[inaudible, no translation]
CHAIRPERSON: There is no translation that we are getting from the translators.
INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the interpreters did not switch the right buttons, can the witness please repeat?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi, may I also request you to keep your responses short and to the point? Now the question was, why did you not include this information in your application?
Can you just repeat for purposes of translation to the translators?
MR HLELESI: Could you please repeat the question?
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not include the information about how you obtained information when you obtained information from Morapapa about the targeted house, why was it not included in the body of your application?
MR HLELESI: The manner in which in filled in my application form was such that I did not give extensive information when the application was written or when it was filled in but talking is different from filling in the application form. You expatiate and give more information or extensive information when you talk and when you explain yourself in your own language, you are able to say certain things.
CHAIRPERSON: What standard have you passed Mr Hlelesi? What standard of education have you passed?
MR HLELESI: It's only know that I've just written my matric.
CHAIRPERSON: Now at the time when you completed this application which is not too long ago, what standard had you passed then?
MR HLELESI: It was standard six, standard seven, sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: And when was this application completed?
MR HLELESI: The first form, there were a lot of forms that I filled in, I don't know which one you're referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: I think the one which bears our stamp dated the 17th January 1997.
MR HLELESI: I think that was during 1997.
CHAIRPERSON: You see on page 8 there is a letter that you addressed to the Amnesty Committee care of Ms Lulema Mdanga which is dated the 5th October 1998. Did you personally write this letter?
MR HLELESI: Yes. Yes this is my handwriting.
CHAIRPERSON: This is where you gave testimony that you received information from a garden worker about your target and that's how you came to target the house which you subsequently attacked, that is so, isn't it? This is your handwriting?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You say that you came from a family of PAC members, your parents and relatives supported the PAC?
MR HLELESI: That is correct, even my brothers.
CHAIRPERSON: So you basically knew broadly without knowing the specifics the basic policy of the PAC, I mean what the PAC was doing fighting for the land, making sure that the people who had been disenfranchised until 1994 got an opportunity to air their views and vote for the government that they wanted in power? You knew all those things?
MR HLELESI: ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get the translation?
MR HLELESI: Yes I knew.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] very important that in your fight that you ensured that the oppression and the frustration that you've alluded to in your application was something that you achieved, you put aside and you could only do so by making sure that people at least enjoyed a vote?
MR HLELESI: Yes that is correct but voting with limits was a different issue.
CHAIRPERSON: What voting with limits are you referring to? Didn't the PAC participate in the first ever elections in the history of this country which included all people?
MR HLELESI: Yes, they took part but I mentioned earlier on that Morapapa was my commander, he ordered us. According to him we did what he wanted at the time he wanted, where he wanted.
CHAIRPERSON: The reason why you joined the PAC because you wanted to further the objectives, is that not so? Not to answer to the whims of Mr Morapapa, you wanted to further the objectives of the PAC, that's the reason why you became a PAC member?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You were a PAC in 1993 when you were recruited by Morapapa, is that so?
MR HLELESI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So you knew the objectives of the PAC, you couldn't have become a member without knowing the political objectives of the PAC?
MR HLELESI: According to what he explained to me, he told us or told me that the war should still go on that is why we were still looking for weapons and that is why I acted in accordance with his instructions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi were you really a member of the PAC and you existed, I suppose, within your community is it not so? You stayed with the community of people who were supporting PAC, the ANC and other liberation movements. Are you saying that you were not aware that on the 27th April 1994 there were elections in which the PAC participated wholeheartedly?
MR HLELESI: Yes all that happened and I also came to be aware of it. As I've already explained before, I'll go back to my words, as a new recruit within the organisation I heard most of the things after the operation. I don't know whether I've answered your question.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, what do you mean? You keep on referring to being a new recruit, a new recruit of what? Were you just not an ordinary member of the PAC?
MR HLELESI: I was a supporter.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any membership card with the PAC?
MR HLELESI: At that time I did not.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were merely recruited to be a supporter? I thought you were a member of a particular cell?
MR HLELESI: Yes that is correct in the way that I have explained.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlelesi, I think Mr Malan would like to ask you a question?
MR MALAN: I really have only question in my mind.
When you went to this house why did you think you were going there? Remember at that time, if I can just tell you why I'm asking this question, you told us that you weren't informed beforehand about weapons, about the objective, about the information that they got from the garden worker or ex-garden worker. You just went to the house, you were only told after the operation what the purpose was really and where the information came from. What did you think you were going to do at the house?
MR HLELESI: To explain that I had already explained that we had gone there to retrieve or get some guns but what I did not get was how the information was obtained, that is why I say I obtained the information at a later stage.
MR MALAN: No further questions Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Madam Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you propose to call any further witnesses in support of Mr Hlelesi's application?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Madam Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You close your case?
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is correct Madam Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to address us now or do you want us to adjourn to enable you to address us in the morning, first thing tomorrow morning?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chairperson, I'm in a position now, I would like it because I have to leave for East London today.
CHAIRPERSON: I seemed to have jumped the gun, I think I have now to go back to Mr Prior now that you have indicated that you'd like to conclude the matter today.
Mr Prior, do have any evidence to call on behalf of the victims?
ADV PRIOR: Sorry Madam Chair that I cut your microphone off. No, I've consulted with the members of the deceased's family and they do not wish to give evidence. They wanted me to place certain matters on record. Maybe this is the time to do that and I think a lot of it is common cause but they just wanted to underline that the deceased was an elderly woman of about - she was 83 years of age when she died. It was at a time when the new democracy had been born. The family wanted to stress this point that the deceased had enjoyed a healthy relationship with the black people, particularly of that area and that was - testimony of that was the fact that the two domestic workers had been with her in access of 20 years. In fact Emily Mokoena had been in her service for an excess of 20 years and the other lady who survived the attack is still with them and has been in their employ for 27 years, that she did not harbour any racial hatred towards the black people of this country and that she did not pose a threat to anyone at all and they express a deep sadness that this matter has been politicised in the way that the applicant has seen fit and their belief is that this was a needless and senseless killing in the course of a robbery that went wrong and they wished to say to the Committee and ask the Committee to obviously - and I indicated to them that I would be arguing the facts on their behalf. Thank you Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior, we'll note their concerns.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, can I just before I may throw some light, maybe I have my dates wrong. When was the cut off date for submission of application for the offences?
CHAIRPERSON: I think for both submissions and offences, one is 10th May 1994 and the other one is 10th May 1997.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I don't want to waste the time of this Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: We are greatly indebted to you for making sure that you don't do that.
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Madam Chairperson, mine is to say to this Committee that enough evidence has been placed before this Committee. I need not add anything more. This Committee will be able to reach a fair and a just decision on this matter with the evidence before it. Thank you Members of the Committee.
NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Prior?
ADV PRIOR IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think even the applicant must have a sense that he has fallen far short of adeucing evidence to satisfy this Committee that he should be granted amnesty for these particular acts.
If I may just highlight three areas. His affiliation to the PAC, I submit with respect has not been supported by the evidence that he gave. It is clear that the acts occurred after the election which was a momentous occasion of international renown and for the applicant to simply say that well, he was a new recruit and he didn't quite understand the aims and objectives of the PAC as it stood for at that stage, I submit cannot be accepted as being true. Even if he was a supporter of the PAC and given his evidence that his family was a long line of PAC supporters, he would have been aware and as I submit, a lot of the black youth at that time were politically aware of what their various political parties were driving at. The fact that he doesn't participate in the election, the fact that he is oblivious to the aims and the objectives of the PAC, I submit must raise a very serious question as to his truthfulness on this aspect.
I submit his amnesty application just then doesn't make sense because he says he committed these acts to further the aims of the PAC as stated in his amnesty application and frankly, Madam Chair, his evidence is poles apart and one just has difficulty trying to reconcile his evidence today that he was a new recruit and wasn't aware and what is stated in his amnesty application.
We also have his concessions that he could not other than concede that he'd lied during his trial at least three occasions, obviously to try and extricate himself from the position that he was in. I think that at the end of the day we haven't had full disclosure. In fact I think a serious question is raised whether this in fact was a political matter and I would urge this Committee, I would argue that it hasn't been proven, it hasn't been established at least on a balance of probabilities that this was a political act or act associated with a political objective. Thank you Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior. We will adjourn now until tomorrow morning. Our judgement in respect of this application will be reserved. One will be delivered in due course, hopefully before the end of this week Mr Mbandazayo. Our office through Mr Prior will make sure that you get a copy of our decision. Thank you very much Mr Prior and Mr Mbandazayo.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
