CHAIRPERSON: Can the next witness be called please.
MR SAMUELS: I call Meshack Thulo, application 7714/97.
ADV DE JAGER: 771?
MR SAMUELS: 4. It's volume two on the second page.
ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)
MR SAMUELS: 266.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulo, what language would you prefer to speak?
MR THULO: Sotho, Sir.
MESHACK TSEKO THULO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Mr Thulo, are you 27 years old?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SAMUELS: I see. What work do you do know?
MR THULO: I'm a business councillor.
MR SAMUELS: Are you a member of the ANC?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SAMUELS: And from 1990 until now, did you live in Thokoza?
MR THULO: Yes, I was born in Thokoza.
MR SAMUELS: Were you a member of an SDU?
MR THULO: That is correct.
MR SAMUELS: And who was your commander?
MR THULO: That is Chris Motokwe.
MR SAMUELS: You are applying for amnesty for two crimes, the first on is kidnapping and the second one is possession of ammunition, is that correct?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SAMUELS: Okay. Describe in your own words to the hearing, the kidnapping.
MR THULO: I don't remember the actual date of that particular incident of kidnapping. What I remember is that it was on the day when people from the hostel were going to bury their members ...(indistinct) to Polla Park.
CHAIRPERSON: You're going too quickly.
ADV MOTATA: I didn't hear the question.
CHAIRPERSON: You're going to fast and the interpreters have to keep up.
MR THULO: I don't remember the actual date but it was in 1993. It was when the hostel dwellers were going to bury on of their members. They were coming from the hostel direction.
They started to shoot from the tennis court in Thokoza ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Who shot from the tennis court, the funeral marchers?
MR THULO: I would say those people who were shooting we were not able to identify them.
CHAIRPERSON: No, what I - shots from the general direction of the tennis courts were discharged in which direction, to whom?
MR THULO: They were in houses next to the tennis court. We did not agree with them that they should pass through Khumalo Street when they were going to the cemetery.
CHAIRPERSON: Who were these shots directed at?
MR THULO: Those people who attended the funeral were those who were shot.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, yes, carry on.
MR THULO: After that shooting I was from Extension 5 towards Beirut. We met Peter Sewasi. We were three in that car. It was myself, Siphiwe Galata and Linda Radebe.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR THULO: Linda Radebe. I was driving towards Polla Park looking for AK47 ammunition because I was ordered to go and buy those ammunitions. Linda Radebe who has since died saw Peter Sewasi, who is my co-applicant. They asked me that my car should be used. Peter was having a red headband like members of the IFP whom we were fighting with.
When he was put in the car, because police were many and the soldiers. We drove to Polla Park. When we arrived at Polla Park we found that there was a meeting of neighbours around Polla Park. We explained that we were afraid to take along one person who had a red band, in case the police and the soldiers saw us and seeing that person in our car.
I was driving a Kadette 1992 model. It was white in colour. Registration of that car is RRS674T. ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, just hold on. This person with the red band, where did that person come from?
MR THULO: We found him immediately after those people who were shooting dispersed. Many things happened which he was implicated in those things around our area. When we took that person we wanted him to explain the neighbours of Unit F. Because there were people who disappeared, he was seen with people who were members of the hostel, who were staying in the hostel. We wanted him to come and explain as to whether what happened to those people who were kidnapped by hostel dwellers whom he was with at that time.
MR SAMUELS: Okay, Mr Thulo, ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain, did he get into your car voluntarily or did you grab him, how did he land in your car?
MR THULO: We requested him to get inside the car but he wanted to run away, then we forced him inside the car.
MR SAMUELS: Now Mr Thulo, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: And what did you want him to explain?
MR THULO: He was involved in - there were allegations that he was involved in incidents of people who were kidnapped. Where I'm staying is near the hostel. When there were shootings he identified with Buyafuti's hostel dwellers.
He was again seen taking three boys who were just walking in the street around the township in Unit F. I don't know where they came from, but unfortunately they were stabbed with assegais by residents of Bhuyafuti hostel and he was present.
CHAIRPERSON: So you believed that he had associated himself with the commission of crimes?
MR THULO: Yes, that was my belief, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Now before I interrupted you you told us that you said to certain people that you were uncomfortable with taking this person into your car because he had a red band on.
MR THULO: Yes, that's what I said.
CHAIRPERSON: Please explain that to me, I don't follow that.
MR THULO: When we met with Peter, we met at Sheagwe. it's near Polla Park. When we took him inside the car we were afraid to pass through the township because the police and the soldiers were around that area. We took him to Polla Park where I was supposed to go and buy AK47 ammunition.
When we arrived there we saw people assembled in a meeting. It was near to a water tank next to Polla Park. When I explained to the meeting, because they saw me driving faster inside, we told them that we should take that person to Unit F because we were not protected and we were afraid that the police and soldiers would see us.
We wanted to leave him there and then we would return later when the police have left the township. I bought what I was supposed to buy. I left those ammunitions in Section F.
MR SAMUELS: Sorry, Mr Thulo, just on the point of the meeting, you say that you took Peter Sewasi to this meeting, did you leave him there?
MR THULO: Yes, I left him there.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR THULO: I left him there.
MR SAMUELS: And where did you go to?
MR THULO: I returned to Section F, after buying the AK ammunition.
MR SAMUELS: Did you have anything else to do with Peter Sewasi at that meeting?
MR THULO: I requested that I should leave him there.
MR SAMUELS: I see. Do you in fact know what happened to Peter Sewasi at that meeting after you left?
MR THULO: As I've already explained, I left them, I went to Unit F. When I returned to Polla Park later I found him dead. When I tried to find out as to what happened to him, they showed me where they burnt him.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect to see him alive when you got there?
MR THULO: Yes, I expected to find him alive, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know something here now, how much ammunition did you buy?
MR THULO: Between 1993 and 1994 I think I've bought plus-minus three thousand rounds.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about that day.
MR THULO: I bought 250 rounds.
CHAIRPERSON: From whom?
MR THULO: There was a person who was selling ammunition. His name is Uys. We were calling each other by code names, so I did not know and I don't know his full names.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he would have obtained these rounds?
MR THULO: It was difficult to find out as to where he got them from.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this source of ammunition still available in the area?
MR THULO: No, he has since died.
CHAIRPERSON: Is one able to unlawfully buy bullets in the area still?
MR THULO: Yes, we were able to buy them from Polla Park.
CHAIRPERSON: Where would this - where would the distributors of this illegal ammunition, where would they get it from?
MR THULO: As I've already explained, we met at safe places. I wouldn't be in a position to ask him questions about that because we were not trusting each other because there were people who were collaborating with the police and collecting information. That is why it was not possible to ask him where he found those ammunitions from.
CHAIRPERSON: Why would people need the ammunition now, after 1994?
MR THULO: Do you mean after 1994, Sir?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR THULO: I never bought those ammunitions after the elections.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not saying you bought it, I'm just asking you, you told me that one is still able to buy unlawful ammunition or illegal ammunition, sorry. Do you know why people would still want to buy ammunition in this country today?
MR THULO: I am not able to account to that question, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the ANC?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you hold any office in its hierarchy?
MR THULO: I am an ordinary member of the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.
MR SAMUELS: And finally, Mr Thulo, did you know that it was illegal for you to possess these bullets at that time?
MR THULO: Yes, I knew.
MR SAMUELS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, I don't suppose you have any questions to this witness have you?
MR SWANEPOEL: Not at this stage, thank you, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Sir, could you please tell us, you stated earlier that you were ordered to buy ammunition, is that correct?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
MS PATEL: By whom?
MR THULO: That is Chris Motokwe.
MS PATEL: I'm sorry, could you repeat that please?
MR THULO: Chris Motowe: M-O-T-O-W-E. Chris Motowe.
ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)
MR THULO: Chris Motokwe. I beg your pardon, Chris Motokwe: M-O-T-O-K-W-E.
MS PATEL: And who is he?
MR THULO: He was the commander after I left that position.
MS PATEL: Sir, of which section would that be?
MR THULO: That is Unit F.
MS PATEL: Was he specific in his instructions to you in terms of purchasing of weapons, in terms of where you needed to go and what needed to be done with the weapons?
MR THULO: I was given money that I should go and try to find the place where I would be able to buy that ammunition. Fortunately we were able to trace that place in Polla Park.
MS PATEL: Okay. What would happen to the weapons after you had purchased them?
MR THULO: We were near Buyafuti hostel. In many instances our section was attacked by people who were hostel dwellers. That is why we went to buy ammunition to defend ourselves.
MS PATEL: Okay. Would this then be distributed to the various members of your unit?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
MS PATEL: You stated that Peters Sewasi was involved with the police hit squad, in your application, do you confirm that?
MR THULO: Yes, I verify that because the police were associating themselves with hostel dwellers.
MS PATEL: So what other information did you base this on? Was there any specific information that Peter Sewasi himself was involved with the police hit squad or are you saying this generally because you think that police were involved with the hostel dwellers?
MR THULO: Those people who were attacking us at all times were driven by police cars. When people were stabbed with assegais, they were attacked in the full view of the police.
MS PATEL: Were there any other incidents that you can recall that relate to Peter Sewasi, upon which you based your decision or upon which the unit had based its decision?
MR THULO: I would say I've said a mouthful by saying one member of the youth was attacked with assegais, because I'm staying near that hostel. He was attacked in front of the police or in the presence of the police.
MS PATEL: Do you ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: It was Peter Sibya at that stage?
MR THULO: Yes, he was present when that person was attacked.
MS PATEL: Do you have any idea why this person was attacked?
MR THULO: They would ask questions about people who were not seen regularly near the hostels and they would use Zulu. Then if you are not able to respond in Zulu, therefore you would be attacked, especially when you can tell them that you come from Beirut or Cathrada or Sesulu or other sections, you would be attacked. You would survive if you can tell them that you come from Vosloorus or other places outside that area.
MS PATEL: So you're saying very simply that these people were attacked because they were not Zulu speaking?
MR THULO: That's the method which was used, that those people who were not conversant in Zulu would be attacked. I would say that in short.
MS PATEL: You've mentioned the Polla Park Kangaroo Court in your application, could you briefly explain how the court operated?
MR THULO: As I've already explained earlier, that we found that meeting being on - maybe you would - I said a meeting, not a Kangaroo Court. That is where we left Peter there in that meeting.
MS PATEL: Now if you would turn to page 268 of the bundle, at 9(b), you mention specifically the Polla Park Kangaroo Court, you didn't mention it in your testimony here today, but it is mentioned in your application.
MR THULO: Yes, I see that.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say Ms Patel, that when he came back expecting to find this person, that he discovered that that person had been killed and he was shown where this person was burnt?
MS PATEL: But he didn't mention the Kangaroo Court specifically, he just mentioned a meeting generally. So the gist of my question is really, does this applicant know how that Kangaroo Court operated.
MR THULO: I have no knowledge of their operations. Maybe I included that Kangaroo Court by mistake but in that meeting, in many instances that is where they would discuss about people who were collaborating with the police and then those people would come and attack Polla Park and Beirut.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you don't know, Mr Thulo, what happened that day, but are you saying you have no knowledge what has to come to be known in these newspapers as the Kangaroo Court, you don't know how these things operate?
MR THULO: That is where people would be asked questions to get some light about particular issues. That is why I - perhaps I would say they would be question then when I arrive we will be able to have information as to whether why was he, why did he associate himself with attackers of the residents.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking - I prefaced my question by saying I'm not talking about the events of that day, I'm talking generally, are you not aware how the people's courts operated?
MR THULO: I don't have ..(end of tape - no recording on side B of English only tape)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(no recording) 1984 to 1994, you have never been in a position to understand or be told how these courts work and why and how people were convicted and executed by way of being burnt, in most cases by being burnt with a tyre around them? You never heard of that?
MR THULO: I'm not able to explain because I would not identify that kind of a meeting as a Kangaroo Court or what, but I know that it was just a general meeting so that at the end of the day they would question a person then they would make a decision and burn that person.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS PATEL: Under whose instructions did you leave Peter Sewasi at that meeting?
MR THULO: I left Siphiwe and Linda there in that meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: I think he testified that he requested that he, that the deceased be left there because he wasn't comfortable with riding around with him.
MS PATEL: Was it your understanding that he would be left there so that the persons present at the meeting could question him, could question Peter Sewasi on his activities?
MR THULO: No, as I've already explained, I requested that he should remain there because the police were roaming around the township, so I was not comfortable that we'd meet the police if we could go around with him. I did not leave any instruction that they should question him about his activities.
MS PATEL: Okay, then perhaps you could explain to us, persons who were present at the meeting, for what purpose were they gathered there?
MR THULO: I explain that in many instances we would hold meetings to try to solve the problems in our area, about attacks and about people who were helping the police, so that they should be identified and then we should remove them from the association of the police and come to our side.
MS PATEL: Are you saying that the purpose of the meeting, parties that had gathered there, that their sole function would be to try to ensure that persons who were involved with the police would then through some kind of process with them, cease that activity and become a part of the organisation?
MR THULO: I'm requesting that you should repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the purpose of this meeting to persuade third force, for example, members to stop their activities against the community and join the community or to join a favourable political party?
MR THULO: I believed so in short.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, when you get to a convenient stage we will adjourn for tea. We adjourn for ...
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MS PATEL: Mr Thulo, by the time of the abduction of Mr Sewasi, for how long had you been involved in the Self Defence Units, up until that stage?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.
MR THULO: It was about a year and six months then.
MS PATEL: During that time, in terms of your experience, how did the community generally deal with persons who were in Mr Sewasi's position, ie: assisting police generally involved in acts of terror against your community? How did the community generally deal with people of that kind?
MR THULO: The community would try to convince them so they can change and be part of the community again.
MS PATEL: And what would happen if they refused?
MR THULO: I did not experience that kind of an incident, as to what would happen to those people who did not want to co-operate, but in our section we were encouraging people to be rehabilitated.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you attend any meeting where they in fact convinced or persuaded a collaborator to change his views and join the movement?
MR THULO: I don't remember attending such meetings.
ADV DE JAGER: Have you heard of any person who has been named as a collaborator, who changed his point of view?
MR THULO: Yes, I do.
MS PATEL: After you had abducted Mr Sewasi, was there a conversation that took place between yourself and the other persons in the car?
MR THULO: That thing happened in a very short space of time. We did not have an opportunity to discuss with him because the car was seen when we put him in, by other people.
MS PATEL: Was there a discussion before you had abducted him?
MR THULO: We requested that he should co-operate with us and go with us to that particular place, that is Unit F, then he denied, then we forced him inside the car.
MS PATEL: And what was the plan, what were you going to do with him?
MR THULO: Our intention was to get information from him because many parents lost their children and some of them disappeared to unknown places. Within the black community if a member of the family dies, that family should be informed and therefore they should get the remains of the deceased and bury him.
MS PATEL: Who would authorise this plan, whose idea was it?
MR THULO: Because I was a driver I explained that the person whose name is Linda Radebe, identified Peter within attackers.
MS PATEL: Do you still stand by your earlier testimony that the purpose of abducting him was to try to persuade him to desist from the activities that he was involved in?
MR THULO: Yes, I still maintain that view.
MS PATEL: What was the primary objective though, was it to illicit information as to where persons who had gone missing, where they were or what had happened to them or was it to convert him?
MR THULO: It was that he should be rehabilitated and be accepted by the community because we lived with him in that Unit F. We did not believe that we should take a decision on our own and ill a person.
MS PATEL: What would you have done with him if he refused to give the information regarding the persons who are missing?
MR THULO: Our primary objective - I don't know what could have happened to tell you the truth, because we did not have an opportunity to talk with him. I would not predict and say what would happen if he denied, but I our intention was to rehabilitate him so that he will be acceptable within the community.
MS PATEL: I ask you once again, Sir, what would you expect to have happened to him if he refused to co-operate with you? Surely that must have been discussed, or in terms of the manner in which the organisation had operated, or the community had operated before then, there were certain expectations that you had, what were those?
MR THULO: In our meetings as a community, together with the commanders and members of the committee who were responsible to resolve the problems or our area, I believe that they would have an ability to persuade him to give up that information.
ADV MOTATA: No, but when he refused to co-operate, what did you expect to happen to him, would you leave him just like that and say: "You are refusing to co-operate"?
MR THULO: I would not be able to respond to that question, as to whether what could have happened if he denied because he was taken to a place where he was supposed to be. That is where they would see what would happen if he denied or if he gave out information.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Thulo, isn't it a fact that during those turbulent years, if he would have refused and he was seen as a collaborator, wouldn't you expect the community to kill him?
MR THULO: I did not believe that he could have been killed. As I've explain, we did not have a right to kill.
ADV MOTATA: Were you surprised when they showed you where he was burnt and were you surprised that he was eventually killed and burnt, were you surprised?
MR THULO: Yes, I was surprised. I did not even have the ability to ask questions because I was afraid that something would happen to me if I ask questions about that incident.
ADV MOTATA: Was there no bad blood between ANC and such members of the Self Defence Unit and people like Peter Sewasi who was IFP aligned, were you not fighting each other?
MR THULO: It was not war in that sense, we were in a position to defend the community against the attacks which was launched by hostel dwellers.
ADV MOTATA: You were buying arms and ammunition which is illegal and if you defend yourself against such attacks, wouldn't you kill?
MR THULO: The Self Defence Unit was created to defend the people and then in that defence you'd be able to kill, people would die in that kind of a defence.
MS PATEL: Mr Thulo, here was a man who you'd abducted, who by your own admission had been involved in gross human rights violations against the very persons whom you had undertaken to protect, do you seriously want this Committee to believe that if he had not given his co-operation to you and your colleagues, that it was not reasonably foreseeable that he would be killed or at the very least seriously injured?
MR THULO: We did not foresee or think about that because those things happened in a very short space of time. That is why I had to leave and go and hand over that ammunition to my commander.
MS PATEL: Let me ask you this, what was Mr Sewasi's behaviour like after you forced him into the vehicle with you?
MR THULO: He denied to co-operate with us, that is why we forced him inside the car.
MS PATEL: Given that, what made you believe that he would co-operate with you in terms of giving you the information that you required?
MR THULO: If you're a person you have a conscience, then you have fear. I would say that he would be frightened that something would happen to him. If we were prepared to kill him we could have advised those people we left him with so that they should kill him in our absence.
ADV DE JAGER: The purpose of this hearing is not to ascertain whether you were guilty of a crime or not. We're not a criminal Court, we are a body who would give amnesty to people who come forward and tell us the whole truth.
So as a matter of fact we are granting amnesty to people who would say: "I'm guilty of doing this or that or another thing", and openly talk about it so that the community can hear what happened and then if you've committed a crime and it was for political reasons, we must give you amnesty according to the Act.
So there is no reason to be afraid to tell us the whole truth and what in fact happened during those days.
MR THULO: Yes, I do understand. I believe that what I am saying is the truth. As I have taken an oath, I am mindful of the fact that I'm coming here for amnesty. That is why I did not know what would happen thereafter when I've left that meeting. If questions have been asked, I am not able to tell this Committee because I did not know what would happen thereafter or what would happen.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us who was in control of the meeting, who was the chairman and to whom have you handed Peter?
MR THULO: I explained that Siphiwe and Linda, I left them in that meeting so that they would take care of Peter, together with the committee which was present or in that meeting.
What happened after I had left to hand over the ammunition to Unit F, I don't have knowledge of what happened thereafter.
MS PATEL: Is it correct that persons at that meeting were in fact waiting for you to bring Peter Sewasi there?
MR THULO: No, that is not the truth.
MS PATEL: So this was pure coincidence, that you ended up there and left him there?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there was a meeting there? When you picked up Peter, did you know there was a meeting near that water tank?
MR THULO: I did not know that there was a meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: So you just per chance landed up at that meeting?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct, it was a coincidence.
CHAIRPERSON: And you left Peter there because you were scared of riding around with him because of the presence of police and whoever else, correct?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: What would you have done with Peter had there not been a meeting?
MR THULO: Our intention, we were supposed to take him to the places where he was involved in those political crimes or those crimes.
CHAIRPERSON: No, where were you going to persuade him to change his ways, if there wasn't a meeting at the water tank? That was your reason for picking him up, isn't it?
MR THULO: May you please repeat your question, Sir?
CHAIRPERSON: The reason for your kidnapping Peter, was to ask him certain questions about the disappearance and the injuries and the deaths of certain people, as well as to persuade him to change his ways for the betterment of the community, not so?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know that meeting was taking place at the water tank, when you picked him up?
MR THULO: Yes, I did not have the information about that meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: Where were you going to take him to persuade him to change his ways and to give information about these missing people?
MR THULO: I've explained that we would take him to Unit F where we would meet with our commander so that we would call a meeting of the defence committee, because in many instances those were the people responsible to give us money to buy guns and ammunition after the community has contributed money to that regard.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you just take him there instead of just leaving him in that meeting that you didn't know about?
MR THULO: I don't know as to whether I made it clear, that on my way to meet Peter, I was going to buy ammunition. That place was near to the place where we met Peter. And then because of the confusion and the presence of the police and the soldiers and that there were people who saw my car and they saw me taking him inside my car, I decided to take him to Polla Park where I was going to buy the ammunition.
MS PATEL: You said the intention was to take him to the Defence Unit and to hand him over to the commander, is that correct?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
MS PATEL: Okay. What would the procedure then have been after that?
MR THULO: That defence committee was able to persuade people who associated themselves with the hostel dwellers. There is one, I just forgot his name, he succeeded to go back home after he was involved with the hostel dwellers in the attacks of the people. So they were able to persuade him to come back and be acceptable within our community.
MS PATEL: And how would they persuade him?
MR THULO: The attempts they made was that he must disassociate himself with war talk so that he will be able to see that people who are hostel dwellers are the enemies of the community.
MS PATEL: Are you saying that only verbal persuasion would be used?
MR THULO: Yes, the one I know, he was persuaded verbally.
MS PATEL: And that's the only method that was used by the Defence Unit, verbal persuasion?
MR THULO: I don't remember that there was a person who was tortured or assaulted so that he should be persuaded to change his mind.
MS PATEL: When you came back and found that they had killed Peter, who did you speak to?
MR THULO: I met Siphiwe.
MS PATEL: What exactly did he say to you?
MR THULO: When I asked him where Peter went he said that he would show where he is. He led to where he was murdered.
MS PATEL: ...(inaudible) he was murdered?
MR THULO: He did not explain.
MS PATEL: This Siphiwe that you referred to, who exactly was he and what was his function?
MR THULO: He was an operator in the Section of the Defence Unit.
MS PATEL: Why didn't you ask him what had happened? Here was somebody whom you had assisted to abduct, do you want us to believe that verbal persuasion would have been used in order to achieve the desired intentions of having abducted him, and you find him burnt to death, weren't you at the very least curious as to what happened?
MR THULO: The question I asked is, what is the reason that he was killed? The explanation I received was that people who attended that meeting took him and then that is why it happened the way it happened.
ADV DE JAGER: Before this meeting and before you saw this body that's been burnt there, were you aware of any other people who had been killed and burnt, necklaced?
MR THULO: I read from the papers.
ADV DE JAGER: So were you so surprised when this happened to him? Wasn't it often reported in the newspapers, that Councillors and people collaborating with the police were burnt?
MR THULO: I said he was stabbed, I don't know of people who were burnt.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) were you involved in the struggle?
MR THULO: I started in 1986 when I was still at high school.
CHAIRPERSON: How old were you?
MR THULO: I was 25 years old - I was 18 years old.
CHAIRPERSON: You belonged to the youth movement, not so?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And during that time when you were a member of the youth movement, ...(inaudible) very important part in the struggle, not so?
MR THULO: Yes, I know.
CHAIRPERSON: And part of the strategy of the youth was to attack collaborators, is that not so?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: In particular black people who sold their own souls?
MR THULO: May you please repeat your question?
CHAIRPERSON: In particular black people who sold their own souls to apartheid?
MR THULO: I saw it only in the newspapers, I don't remember being part of the youth group which attacked or killed collaborators.
CHAIRPERSON: Which group were you attached to?
MR THULO: I was a member of Thokoza Youth Congress.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the Thokoza Youth League must have been the only league who didn't do that in the whole country, would you agree?
MR THULO: I would not dispute or agree that Thokoza Youth League did not attack people, but what I'm saying is that I was never part to a group of the youth congress which attacked people.
CHAIRPERSON: Not even community councils?
MR THULO: The attacks which I remember were attacks against the police with petrol bombs.
CHAIRPERSON: You remember the time when our people said we are not going to vote? Do you remember that time?
MR THULO: Yes, I do although I don't remember the year.
CHAIRPERSON: And during that time the youth rose to the occasion, correct?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: If I'm not mistaken that was around 1987/1998, October.
MR THULO: I would agree with you.
CHAIRPERSON: And despite the objections from many quarters, progressive quarters, certain people in all the locations, Indian, Coloured, African, there were people who were prepared to sell their souls, do you remember?
MR THULO: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: And those people were dealt with, do you recall, by the youth congress? Not only the youth congress, but the youth congress was involved in dealing with those people, do you remember?
MR THULO: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: And do you recall what happened to those people and their properties?
MR THULO: What I remember is that they were beaten with batons or sjambucks.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you recall in the Eastern Cape, a gentlemen by the name Kenny Kini, much publicised in the whole country, do you remember?
MR THULO: I don't remember him.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't recall any of the community councillors being killed, even here in Gauteng which was then the Transvaal?
MR THULO: I remember that petrol bombs were thrown to a member of the council in Daveton, that is Tom Boya.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all that happened to him?
MR THULO: Yes, I remember only the petrol bombs which were used.
CHAIRPERSON: And you never heard or read in the newspapers that somewhere in the country some of these community councillors who made themselves available for this apartheid system, they were killed, they were burnt, a tyre was put over them with petrol and set alight?
MR THULO: When I was reading the newspapers or listening to news I learnt that they were using petrol bombs to burn the people to death.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever hear the newspapers coin the phrase "Kangaroo Courts"?
MR THULO: Yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not find out from your comrades what this was all about, what is this Kangaroo Court that the newspapers are referring to?
MR THULO: I learnt that those people who were collaborators with the previous system were brought to that particular institution so that they would be able to be questioned about their activities.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR THULO: I remember that people were sjambucked in the Kangaroo Court.
CHAIRPERSON: That's all?
MR THULO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear in these courts that the chairman would assume at times the names of appointed judges in the country?
MR THULO: Yes, I do know.
CHAIRPERSON: And they would conduct a trial of those people who were brought before the meeting, not so?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct, but I've never witnessed that, I just heard about it. I never witnessed the process of the Kangaroo Court or I never met somebody who was a member of the Kangaroo Court.
CHAIRPERSON: And you know at times what happened at the end of the day when certain people were found guilty and how they were punished, they were burnt to death, isn't it, because they sold the people, correct?
MR THULO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now on this day when you kidnapped Peter, you were aware of such things and that such things had occurred before, not so?
MR THULO: I would not identify that meeting with a Kangaroo Court ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Kangaroo Court. You said you didn't know what was happening, you unexpectedly came across that gathering.
MR THULO: As I've explained that people used to meet and discuss how they can avoid the attacks we suffered by members of the Thokoza community which came from many directions.
I believed that they were discussing those kind of issues. The explanation I gave about the Kangaroo Court, with a judge and other members of that committee, I don't know that one.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Patel, have you got any questions left?
ADV DE JAGER: Sorry. This application, is this your handwriting, on page 268?
MR THULO: I believe so. Somewhere is not my handwriting but somewhere is my handwriting.
ADV DE JAGER: Okay, look at page 268, do you see paragraph (b), was that your handwriting?
MS PATEL: Yes, that is my handwriting.
ADV DE JAGER: And there they ask you
"State whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage."
And you said:
"By Polla Park Kangaroo Court."
You've written that yourself.
MR THULO: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: Now what do you want to convey or wanted to convey at the stage when you wrote that?
MR THULO: I explained earlier that it is because of not understanding the English language, so that I'd be able to identify a particular meeting because a Kangaroo Court in many instances was seen where many people have met or assembled.
So it is a misuse of that word because I did not understand exactly what it meant.
ADV MOTATA: Mr Thulo, when you refer further - if you look at that very (b), you say
"Refer"
and you have:
"(Peter)"
Wouldn't the conclusion be that when Peter was taken there, that those people who had assembled there formed a Kangaroo Court and hence his execution?
MR THULO: I was trying to explain where I included the name Peter to identify the victim of a person who was taken to that particular meeting.
MS PATEL: Mr Thulo, on page 69 you have stated that you would also like to apply for general amnesty for things that you may not recall, is that still your request?
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) relevant Ms Patel, whether it's still his request, he can't get it.
MR THULO: My legal representative explained to me that the way the TRC Act operates does not allow a person to apply for amnesty for the things he does not know. That is why apply for amnesty for things I know.
MS PATEL: Just finally though, were you involved in so many incidents that you can't recall what you were involved in?
MR THULO: When I tried to explain about things which I do not remember, I was thinking of those issues, that the cameras which were used by the police during the attack, if we would go to help the community in a different manner, maybe I appear in their videos. That is why I say those are the things which I cannot recollect.
MS PATEL: Sorry, if you would bear with me just one moment.
You've mentioned in your application, under whose approval you acted, you say:
"Commander Chris Mdago."
Is this the same as Chris Motokwe?
MR THULO: Yes, that is Chris Motokwe, that is my commander.
MS PATEL: Who is Chris Mdago, or is it the same person?
MR THULO: It is a slip of my hand because I don't know the correct spelling but I know that he's Chris Motokwe, but the way it's written here does not correspond with the real name.
MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
ADV DE JAGER: Ms Patel, do you know whether the deceased had any relations or where he stayed, any notice given perhaps in newspapers in recent days or so?
MS PATEL: If I may place on record, Honourable Chairperson, that ads were placed both in newspapers and on the radio some time back, for victims to come forward. The response was very poor.
I might add also that another ad was placed last week, to which we have had no response. And in terms of the report from our Investigative Unit, they haven't had any luck in terms of this.
ADV DE JAGER: So as far as the Amnesty Committee or its staff could possibly have done, they've tried to get hold or give notices to everyone involved and the victims involved?
MS PATEL: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
MR SAMUELS: No re-examination. That is the evidence for this applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
