Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good day to you all and as usual we would like to offer our apologies for having been unable to commence this hearing timeously as we had hoped. I have actually run out of words to say to you in expressing our apologies. Suffice to say that we are still experiencing teething problems. Ms Thabete are we now in a position to commence the application of Mr Seshaba?

MS THABETE: Yes Madame Chair we are.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, are you representing Mr Seshaba?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: Kindly place yourself on record, your full names?

MR SHAKOANE: I am gift Shakoane an advocate of the Supreme Court on behalf of Mr Joel Mhlahemi Seshaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is your instructing attorney in respect of this application?

MR SHAKOANE: Instructed by the legal aid.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Ms Thabete for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, we have already wasted a lot of time, wasted the entire morning. As you can see I'm struggling to smile, I find it very difficult, there hasn't been anything that would give me cause for a smile. Can we proceed with the application of Mr Seshaba? Is he going to give evidence under oath?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MR SHAKOANE: Zulu.

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: The ball is in your court Mr Shakoane, you may lead your client's evidence in chief.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHAKOANE: Thanks. Mr Seshaba, what are your full names?

MR SESHABA: I am Joel Mhlahemi Seshaba.

MR SHAKOANE: Where do you live?

MR SESHABA: Number 228 Sangweni Section, Tembisa.

MR SHAKOANE: Madame, I've got a short affidavit which I wanted to service an introduction in the evidence that he's going to give, if I may get leave to hand that over?

CHAIRPERSON: You may hand if up and it should be Exhibit B.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have sufficient copies for the Committee?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame. Unfortunately the original is not stapled.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, I note that the affidavit that you've just handed up to the Committee is marked D.

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason why this is already marked D?

MR SHAKOANE: The reason was that it was in accordance with the previous record that was given to me and presently a new record was sent to me in this bundle, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we'll continue then to have this as Annexure B. You may proceed then Mr Shakoane.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks. Mr Seshaba, you've seen the document that has been submitted to the Committee as an affidavit presently?

MR SESHABA: Yes I've seen it.

MR SHAKOANE: Are you fully aware of the contents of that affidavit?

MR SESHABA: Yes.

MR SHAKOANE: You confirm what's contained in it?

MR SESHABA: Yes I confirm everything contained.

MR LAX: Mr Seshaba, can you just speak up a little? What you're saying is being conveyed around the room and if you do speak up then we'll be able to - the people in the room will be able to hear you through the speaker. So if you can just try and speak up a little bit please and the same for you Mr Shakoane?

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks. Mr Seshaba, do you belong to a political organisation?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: Which organisation do you belong to?

MR SESHABA: To the ANC.

MR SHAKOANE: When did you join the ANC?

MR SESHABA: I joined the ANC in 1982 on 13th April.

MR SHAKOANE: Were you a member of any of the organs of the organisation?

MR SESHABA: Yes I was member of the MK.

MR SHAKOANE: When did you become of member of the MK?

MR SESHABA: I joined the MK in 1988 on the 2nd March.

MR SHAKOANE: And how did you join the MK?

CHAIRPERSON: We can spare you the need to lead him in respect of how he joined his, I mean how he joined uMkhonto weSizwe, we don't find that to be relevant to these proceedings, we don't need to have that evidence. We accept that he was a member of MK, that is not in dispute.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks. Mr Seshaba in the period during 1992 and 1993 what was happening in the Tembisa Township, including the section where you lived?

MR SESHABA: During that period there were the Two Star Gang who resided at Umtambeka Section in Tembisa. They were trafficking with the IFP which resided at Vusumosi. The Two Star Gang as well as the IFP were harassing the community, raping, robbing the community of their money, televisions, attacking doctors.

MR LAX: Can you just try and speak a little bit more slowly. What we're worried about is that everything is translated into English, we would hate that something got missed out where words are not properly interpreted. So if you can just give the interpreters a chance by speaking a little bit slowly. That way your whole message will come across adequately and there will be unlikely to be translation mistakes. We will also then be able to make a better record of what you say so if I could urge you please. You said that during this period there was a Twister Gang staying at Tembisa Hostel, they were trafficking with the IFP staying at which hostel?

MR SESHABA: At Vusumosi Hostel.

MR LAX: You can carry on from there please?

INTERPRETER: Just for a point of correction, Chairperson, I'm not sure whether it was Twister Gang or Toaster Gang.

CHAIRPERSON: It's Toaster Gang.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you.

MR SESHABA: These people used to come to the community to harass it. They used to come and fire shots, they'd get into people's houses and rob them of their T.V. sets and attack doctors and rob them of their monies, but also go to businessmen and rob them of their monies and take whatever they could take from those shops, raping school children and students were no longer able to go to school as a result of that. That was that.

MR SHAKOANE: Now on realising that kind of a situation, what was the community's reaction to that?

MR SESHABA: The community came together, sat down to discuss this, concerned about the fact that even though they reported these to whoever, these were not taken seriously so that we as a community ultimately formed a unit, the SDU's so as to defend ourselves against the Two Star Gang and the IFP.

MR SHAKOANE: Was the SDU formed with the approval of any political organisation or not?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: How was that done and which organisation was that?

MR SESHABA: What I did before joining the SDUs I went to the Tembisa branch of the ANC office and I also went to the MK office in Johannesburg and informed them about the problem that we had pertaining to the Toaster Gang in the township and they gave me a permission to the effect that I too can be a member of the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

MR SESHABA: It was in 1992 in May.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've already testified that the community came together to consider the problem that were being presented by the Toaster Gang. When did they come to that consideration?

MR SESHABA: The community met at the time when the Toaster Gang were terrorising and killing the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what year was that?

MR SESHABA: It think it was from 1992 to 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, I don't whether you understand the input of my question. You've already testified that the community got sick and tired of the problems that were presented to them by the Toaster Gang and then they decided to do something. What year was that, it can't be between 1992 and 1993? It was as a result of that that you had to go to the ANC to seek direction and that's when you were given permission to establish and become a member of the self defence unit and your evidence in that regard is that you were given such permission and directive in 1992 so your permission must have preceded the meeting of the community?

MR SESHABA: Thank you, now I understand the question. Before joining the SDU I went to the ANC office as well as the MK office at Shell House and informed them about the situation in the township and they granted me permission to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my question is you have already given evidence that there was a time when your community came together to consider the problems that were being presented to them by members of the Toaster Gang in robbing, in raping, in maiming the members of the community. When was that, you didn't give us an indication of the period in which that meeting took place by the community?

MR SESHABA: We held the meeting in 1992 around May, I'm not quite sure of the date.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Shakoane, I'm sorry. I just wanted to make sure that I rounded up the time period in respect of the evidence with regard to that meeting.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you Madame.

You were just saying that you went to the ANC and the branch at Tembisa and also in Johannesburg. Did you get that approval that you wanted?

MR SESHABA: Yes I did because they also wrote me letters. I'm talking here about the Tembisa Branch as well as the headquarters. I also had the letters with me.

MR SHAKOANE: The letters that you refer to, are those the letters that are in the record?

MR SESHABA: That is correct.

MR LAX: That's at page 93 and 94 Mr Shakoane.

MR SHAKOANE: ...[inaudible]

Now once the approval was given what happened? What did you do after the MK headquarters and the branch in Tembisa authorised the request that you took to them?

MR SESHABA: I joined the SDU's and there were other SDU members with whom I worked and trained in the township.

MR SHAKOANE: What was the aim and the objective of the SDUs in the township as such?

MR SESHABA: The objectives of the SDUs in the township was to defend the people, control the township to make sure that people are not robbed of their things and things such as rape etcetera are stopped.

MR SHAKOANE: Were the SDUs also involved in the fighting between the organisations themselves that for example between the ANC and the IFP?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: Now were there any weapons used to achieve the purpose?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it what purpose, of defending the community?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: By the SDU members?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

MR SESHABA: Yes we did use weapons.

MR SHAKOANE: What type of weapons were those?

MR SESHABA: We used AK's as well Stechems.

MR SHAKOANE: Now on the 25th October 1993 there was an incident that occurred in respect of which you are before the Commission today. Would you explain to the Commission what happened?

MR SESHABA: On the 25th October I was at home and I heard a gunshot and on going out to investigate I saw nothing and when I went towards the shops, the shops are not far away from home I think it's about 60 metres from home ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshaba, we are again going to request you to give your evidence in such a way that we are able to take it down as we have to write it and the interpreter is able to interpret each and every word that you say. So we'll request you again to give it in a much slower pace than you've been doing.

MR SESHABA: Thank you. Can I start all over again?

CHAIRPERSON: You may start again, on the 25th October 1993 you were at your home when you heard a gunshot, you went out and then what happened?

MR SESHABA: I went outside to investigate and outside I came across Ndlandla Ngala who came to me and he said that the Toaster Gang had fired shots at the shops and they robbed him of his money and a watch. They went into the shop and robbed them of money as well and as he was showing me these gang members they walked past the street and I walked behind them, following them from a distance, so that they could not identify me. I followed them until they came to a house at number 25 wherein they stood. As I was following them I stood somewhere and watched them at a place that's almost like a bush and I went down that bushy path and got into the second house from where they were standing and I approached them from the corner from a different direction. I spoke to them and I said to them please take back the money to the shop. They had their guns lying down next to a wall and they were drinking liquor. One of them went for his firearm and I realised that I had no chance here, I fired a shot during which time he fell and I went back home.

MR SHAKOANE: You said one of them, who is this person you're talking about as one of them? Do you know him?

MR SESHABA: Yes, Boy Buthelezi is his name and there were three of them actually and after falling, these other two fled to the other side of the tar road and I did not get a chance to shoot them fearing that I might shoot innocent people. This thing happened at roundabout 5 and everybody was back from work.

MR SHAKOANE: Were there any other persons you know who saw the incident?

MR SESHABA: Yes.

MR SHAKOANE: Do you know who they are?

CHAIRPERSON: How would he know that, isn't that a leading question? Was he with any - there is no evidence to suggest that he was with anyone when this incident occurred?

MR SHAKOANE: Pardon Madame Chair, what I was - the import of the question was actually whether or not he would have somebody as a witness who might have seen the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: But when this incident occurred he wasn't aware whether anyone had seen anything, is it no so?

MR SHAKOANE: It's so Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: And he became aware after?

MR SHAKOANE: After.

CHAIRPERSON: I think put it to him in that regard that subsequent to the occurrence of this incident he became aware that other people had witnessed this incident.

MR SHAKOANE: Are you aware of any person of whom you subsequently knew that he saw the incident?

MR SESHABA: Yes.

MR SHAKOANE: Who could that be?

MR SESHABA: I do not quite understand, would you please repeat the question? I don't know which people you are talking about here.

MR SHAKOANE: Do you know the name of the person whom you subsequently came to know has witnessed the incident?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, may I just come in? I don't understand the relevance of you eliciting that information now whilst he is still giving us details of how the incident occurred. Shouldn't you exhaust your questions in leading him to the particulars relating to how this incident happened and thereafter proceed to deal with his political motivation or justification for having committed this offence then you can introduce those questions by way of enabling yourselves to bring in further witnesses which will support his version?

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you Madame. Mr Seshaba, what was the reason for following these people and ultimately shooting the deceased?

MR SESHABA: I followed these people and subsequently shot the deceased the aim being to get back the money they had taken from the shop as well as the watch which they took from Ndlandla Ngala and I wanted to tell them to take these things back but they could not because as I was talking to them, one of them reached for the firearm and I started shooting.

MR SHAKOANE: In what capacity did you do that? I mean in what capacity?

MR SESHABA: I didn't do this for myself, I was defending the community.

MR SHAKOANE: Defending the community in your capacity as what?

MR SESHABA: I was defending the community myself as a member of the SDU.

MR SHAKOANE: Now what happened after the shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to what, Mr Shakoane?

MR SHAKOANE: In relation to the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Arrest?

MR SHAKOANE: The deceased yes, Madame and man.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, won't you just try and lead him because you know that's a very elastic question, he's likely to give you the evidence you don't want him to tell you. Just try and be specific in your leading question.

MR SHAKOANE: Yes, after the shooting did you arrest any of the persons of going near to the deceased?

MR SESHABA: May the question please be repeated?

MR SHAKOANE: Let me rephrase the question. When the shooting occurred you said it was because one of the people who you say robbed the shop was reaching for his firearm and you wanted to recover the money which they took from the shop and from the people, the question is after the shooting then, what did you do, did you arrest or check for the money from the people?

MR SESHABA: Thank you. After shooting this person, I did not take anything from them, I went home and I spent about three days at home and no police were coming to my home to question me about the incident and I concluded that I was no longer safe because had I stayed home the other Toaster Gang members as well as the IFP members would come for me and kill me and I decided to leave for Kwandabele.

MR SHAKOANE: Just to take you a little back. Were the people that robbed the shop including the deceased, did you know if they were members of the gang in the township or a political organisation?

MR SESHABA: Honestly speaking, as I explained earlier on that Ndlandla came to me to tell me that these males were members of the Toaster Gang. I did not know they were members of the Toaster Gang but I understood and I accepted that they were because of the manner in which they went around wielding their firearms and the manner in which people scattered each time they appeared.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interrupt here please Mr Shakoane? Could you tell me Mr Seshaba, you made mention and unfortunately my notes are not quite clear. Did you say that the Toaster Gang were staying in that particular section?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Which section did they stay in?

MR SESHABA: As I explained earlier on that the Toaster Gang resided at Mtambia Section and they were terrorising the community at the section and when they Mtambia Section formed SDUs they fled the hostel.

ADV BOSMAN: What I would like to clear up, in what section did this incident of the shooting take place?

MR SESHABA: The shooting incident happened at Sangweni Section.

ADV BOSMAN: And how far is this from Tabega Section?

MR SESHABA: They are not far apart, these sections are not far apart but by this time these gang members were residing at Vusumosi Hostel.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Shakoane.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you Madame. The ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose? Emanating from the question put by your legal representative do I understand you to be saying you did not know the persons that you subsequently followed after they had been pointed out to you by Ndlandla Ngala? You didn't know them by sight?

MR SESHABA: No I had not seen them before but I knew that there were Toaster Gangs in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I'm asking that is because as you will know that during your criminal trial there was one Vincent Majola who alleged that he was your brother-in-law? You recall that evidence being given by Vincent Majola during your criminal trial?

MR SESHABA: Yes I remember that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he amongst the people that were pointed out by Ndlandla Ngala and that you subsequently followed?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct because when I left the homestead as Vincent Majola was standing at the gate these people were drinking liquor and I went straight to the deceased, Boy Buthelezi. He saw me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think you've actually understood my question. My question is was Vincent Majola one of the three persons pointed out to you by Ndlandla as having been members of the Toaster Gang and as having been persons who were suspected of having robbed him of his watch and of having committed some kind of robbery in that shopping centre?

MR SESHABA: No, Vincent Majola was not a member of the Toaster Gang, he was an ordinary resident.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, what I want to know is was he one of the three persons that you followed who were pointed out to you by Ndlandla?

MR SESHABA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR SHAKOANE: That's the evidence from the applicant unless there's any further aspect that I would be required to cover?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have any evidence before us, we don't have any evidence before us that would suggest any justification for shooting. As you are aware you have to satisfy an important requirement to show that the offence concerned was politically motivated and what he sought to achieve by shooting Mr Buthelezi. We do not have that evidence. We would appreciate if you could lead him in that regard. Do you understand what I'm trying to say Mr Shakoane? You have not led him on why he shot Mr Buthelezi, the justification for the shooting and what was sought to be achieved politically by shooting Mr Buthelezi.

MR SHAKOANE: Madame I thought I've asked a question on him as to what the cause was for him to follow the three persons and also why did he ultimately shoot the deceased and there were answers from him in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: You are satisfied? Are those the answers that you will argue in your - are you going to use those answers in your legal argument to support his application? Are you satisfied with the answers given?

MR SHAKOANE: Perhaps I could just ask him to add on to that in explanation to make the political justification thereof clearer to the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you see the answers that have the reasons advanced by Mr Seshaba for shooting Mr Buthelezi have been that the first was he was trying to get back the money taken from the shop and the watch taken from Ndlandla Ngala and the second reason was that he shot the deceased because and this is important, you are conducting his application with a view of enabling him to succeed in his application for amnesty and bearing in mind the requirements of the Act, he says he shot because one of them reached for his firearm. Now that is the question that you think has been - that response in my opinion does not go to show the political justification for the shooting?

MR SHAKOANE: Madame, the situation at that effect is to be understood on the - I could perhaps take him through on that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you are happy Mr Shakoane with the reasons that have been advanced by your client and you will be able to argue from those reasons that occur. We just thought maybe you wanted to go a little further. However, if you feel that those are your instructions and from the reasons that have just been advised by Mr Seshaba, you'll be able to address us and convince us that the requirements of the Act will be satisfied by the evidence before us. You are completely on your hands.

MR SHAKOANE: Mr Seshaba, the ultimate shooting that occurred, how would you ...[inaudible] as to how it associates with your role in the situation?

MR SESHABA: Thank you. After shooting the deceased, the firearms which they had lay there, I did not take them because there were three of these Toaster Gangs, they left these firearms, they were sitting against a precast wall. I did not take the firearms, what I wanted from them is for them to take back the money to the shop, not give it to me, I wanted them to do it themselves. I only shot at them because the deceased reached for his firearm and I realised that my safety was no longer guaranteed. I shot at Boy and these other two fled.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Seshaba, it's really not clear to me. Where was Vincent Majola at this stage?

MR SESHABA: He was standing at the gate.

ADV BOSMAN: So he was not one of the three?

MR SESHABA: No, he was not part of the three.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not clear to me how Vincent Majola comes to the scene. This is how I understand your evidence and correct me if I've understood it wrongly. You hear gunshots whilst you are at home, you hear a gunshot whilst you are at home, you go out to investigate. Whilst out you come across Ndlandla Ngala, he tells you about his ordeal, he has just been robbed by the Toaster Gang and his shop has also been robbed of money. Where are you at that stage? Are you next to your house when you meet Ndlandla Ngala?

MR SESHABA: Thank you very much. When this gunshot was fired at the shop my homestead is not far away from the shop, it could be 60 metres away from home. When I went out Ndlandla came to me and said here are the Toaster Gangs and I think I was saying it in a hurry and I said to him, do you know that these guys are the Toaster Gangs and he said yes, I know them, I went to school with these boys and he showed me the boys and I followed them, the three of them, all of them armed with firearms and I saw people scattering to all different directions and they went to number 25 Sangweni Section, that is where I shot the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now you leave your house after hearing the sound of gunfire?

MR SESHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you armed at that stage when you leave your house on hearing the sound of the gunfire?

MR SESHABA: Yes I had an AK.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have an AK when you heard the sound of gunfire?

MR SESHABA: I knew that a firearm in the township was common place especially among the Toaster Gang members as well as the IFP. On hearing a gun shot obviously it would have been them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was your intention of having a firearm with you?

MR SESHABA: My intention on leaving the homestead armed and investigating, I just wanted to establish who were shooting and what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you have done after you had established that it was the Toaster Gang, what would you have done with your firearm?

MR SESHABA: That's a very good question, thank you very much. On concluding that it is indeed the Toaster Gang members I would not have followed them, I knew they were dangerous people, that is why I am saying to this Committee that I followed them to Number 25 Sangweni Section where at I shot this deceased. I could not have followed them directly, they were so dangerous.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that aspect of evidence. You have just given us a background of the activities of the Toaster Gang, how terrible they were, the mayhem they caused in your township, then you are a member of a self defence unit, it is your objective to defend your community. You are in possession of an AK47 in order to achieve that objective which is to defend your community and you want us - you are telling us that if you had established that the people who had been shooting in the township and who probably would have been shooting at the community you have been tasked to defend but if you had established that these people were the Toaster Gang, you wouldn't have used your firearm, you wouldn't have followed them, would you not be shirking your responsibility? I just cannot reconcile what you are saying with what the duty of an SDU member was?

MR SESHABA: As I stated earlier on that these Toaster Gang members were such that I could not have followed them directly and request them politely to take back whatever they took from the shop because they were such that one could not have spoken to them, it was not possible. Had I known already that they were Toaster Gang members I would have shot them because they would have done the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshaba, you are giving evidence under oath, I want you to give your evidence in a crisp and comprehensible fashion. You are being represented by Mr Shakoane whose duty is to assist this Committee to ensure that we understand your evidence in as clear a manner as possible.

In your evidence previously you have stated that Ndlandla Ngala pointed out the Toaster Gang to you and told you that he had just been robbed by members of the Toaster Gang, do I understand that aspect of your evidence correctly?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you then say now that had you known that those persons were members of the Toaster Gang you wouldn't have followed them because they are so dangerous? You are giving contradictory versions. You follow people because they've been pointed out as the Toaster Gang and on another vein though, had you known that they were members of the Toaster Gang you wouldn't have dared to follow them because they were dangerous? Do you understand the contradiction I am sitting with?

MR SESHABA: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please just clear that for me? Did you not follow the three persons who were pointed out to you by Ndlandla because they were members of the Toaster Gang and they had again committed a crime that it was your duty to make sure that they do not commit as a member of an SDU?

MR SESHABA: Thank you. As I stated earlier on that Ndlandla came to me and told me that here are these Toaster Gang members and I followed them until they arrived at Number 25 where I shot Boy, the deceased. As I stated earlier on that on arriving there I did not talk to them impolitely, I instead politely requested them to take back the money to the shop as well as the watch and the deceased and the others were sitting against the wall or should I say the deceased lifted his firearm and I shot him and the two fled. I could not shoot them because there were people coming from work and people all over, I did not want to shoot innocent people. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are repeating the evidence that I already have, that was not the import of my question. What I want to know is, when you followed the three persons who had been identified to you by Ndlandla, did you at the time when you followed them knew that they were members of the Toaster Gang? Had that information been disclosed to you by Ndlandla? That's the ambit of my question.

MR SESHABA: Yes he did.

CHAIRPERSON: It therefore cannot be correct for you to say had you known that they were members of the Toaster Gang you wouldn't have dared to follow them as your later evidence would want to suggest, is it not so?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct. I am saying that I would not have followed them closely, what I want to say here is they were extremely dangerous to the community for me to follow them closely because they could have shot. I did not conceal my firearm, they would have shot at me, that is the reason why I did not follow them closely. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter whether you followed them closely or you didn't follow them closely? Isn't the fact that you did follow them?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And why did you follow them knowing that they were dangerous?

MR SESHABA: I followed them so that they could take the money back to the shop, that is the reason why I followed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it normal practice for SDU members to be that polite either to members of the Toaster Gang or people that were perceived by SDU members to be their political opponents? Was it a normal practice for your unit to be that polite to expect people when they've done an infraction to be able to ...[indistinct]. I hope the answer will be as good as you ...[indistinct].

MR SESHABA: Thank you. These Toaster Gang members were such that one would not have approached them in case they did something bad or rob the community of something. One would not have gone to them to request them to take those things back. They used to take these things to Vusimosi Hostel, the base of the IFP and if one went there to enquire one would be asked to which party one belonged and if one said one belonged to the ANC one would not get those things back and one would not be able to come back to the township, instead one would be killed. We used to report to the Tembisa Police Station about such problems and the police would tell us about the assortment of weapons that these gang members were having and they would arrest these gang members and these boys would later on in the evenings be released and we ended up not knowing what to do with them. That is the reason why I shot Boy.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Interpreter. I just hear you're saying that's the reason why you shot Boy, you still haven't just crisply answered why did you follow them? Did you follow them really with the intention of politely speaking to them to return the items that they had forcefully taken from their victims knowing that these are members of the Toaster Gang or did you follow them for a reason that you since you have yet to disclose to this Committee?

MR SESHABA: I followed them because as I stated earlier on, I wanted them to take the money back to the shop. It was not my aim to shoot them, my intention was for them to give me the money. I didn't want them to give it to me actually, I wanted them to take it back to the shop themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshaba, I hope it has been made patently clear to you what this Committee does, it's work that we only deal with people who have committed offences, who admit to having committed offences and who are able to satisfy us that those offences were committed as a result of a political objective which they sought to achieve. I hope your attorney, sorry your counsel, has read the Act and in consulting with you advised you of the information that you will have to give this Committee to enable your application to succeed? We don't deal with people who are not offenders, we give amnesty because people are admitting to having committed and intended to have committed acts, offences or omissions and can prove that those acts, offences or omissions are acts associated with a political objective. This Committee has already heard evidence of how the Toaster Gang operated in Tembisa and the havoc they reaped in that community. Are you saying that you would go to people who are dangerous all by yourself and expect them when you politely request them to return something that they had forcefully taken from their victims, the persons that you have described as being very, very dangerous and that was the only reason you followed them?

MR SESHABA: Yes, that is the reason that prompted me to pursue them, there was nothing that I could have done because this is something they used to do often times. I was sacrificing my life because children were no longer able to attend school, they were being raped, I was sacrificing my life. If they were to kill me that would be it. I was prepared to follow them to their destination.

CHAIRPERSON: Just explain to me how you were sacrificing your life and how following the three persons would have made the townships safer by following them only with one objective of asking them politely to return the items they had forcefully taken from their victims?

MR SESHABA: Would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: How would you be sacrificing your life by merely following the persons who had forcefully taken items from one victim Ndlandla and robbed a shop next to your home? How would that amount to sacrificing your life and you've gone on to say you wanted to make sure that the children are not raped and I suppose your intention was to defend your community? How would just going to people and asking them politely to return the items they had forcefully taken from their victims be to your community's defence when you are dealing with dangerous, dangerous persons like the members of the Toaster Gang?

MR SESHABA: I don't know how to put it. As I have stated earlier on that these Toaster Gang members were used to this, this was a daily occurrence. There was no longer school attendance in the township. I had told myself that I concluded solely that I was going to pursue them to their destination.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not your intention to kill these people in order to make sure that you reduce the number of persons who were terrorising your community?

MR SESHABA: No, that was not my intention. My intention was that they should take the money back to the shop.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Seshaba, if they had taken the money back to the shop what would you have done then?

MR SESHABA: I would have no reason to fight them or shoot them had they taken the money back to the shop, I would just leave them.

ADV BOSMAN: But how would this have protected your community because you would then have let them loose on the community again?

MR SESHABA: It was very difficult for the community to get back their things from the Toaster Gang, it was very difficult. They were scared of them, they would not approach them at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But what were the functions of the SDU members? You've just stated in your evidence that your function was to protect and defend your community. Did that defence and protection not extend to killing and eliminating members of the Toaster Gang?

MR SESHABA: Yes that is correct. As I stated earlier on that the Toaster Gang were such that even if one apprehended them and took them to the police station they were released, they were able to flee from the police station, they fled from the Tembisa Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not interested in that part of the evidence, it has no bearing to the application that we are dealing with. Now if the instructions extended to killing members of the Toaster Gang, why would you not have killed them when a member of the community points them out and he tells you that a crime has just been committed by these members and you had been appointed as a member of the self defence unit to protect the community against such persons? Why would you not have killed them?

MR SESHABA: I would have taken them to their community which would in turn decide what to do with them.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you have dreamed of taking three armed persons that you have described as having been so dangerous? You apprehend them on your own, you take them to the community? Is that conceivable?

MR SESHABA: No that was not conceivable. I indicated that I followed them alone from a distance and I could have spoken to them and had I had other people who would back me up I would not have killed them and there were no other self defence unit members nearby.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying that even though it was stated intention of the SDU formation to kill members of the Toaster Gang in defence to the community, you were not prepared to do so?

MR SESHABA: Yes, I was not prepared to kill, I was prepared to ensure that they take back whatever they took from the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a lunch adjournment for thirty minutes and we'll reconvene at 2 o'clock. Mr Shakoane, can we see you in chambers?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR SHAKOANE: I place it on record at this stage that given the difficulties in the evidence of the applicant which to that degree deviate from the consultations that I had with him, I find myself in a position where I ask leave from the Committee to withdraw from the matter and then he can find another representative to continue his case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, we understand your difficulties and we have no option but to grant you that leave to withdraw from the matter.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We wish to thank you for the assistance that you nevertheless gave to this Committee.

Ms Thabete, what is the position? Are we in a position to assist Mr Seshaba with a legal representative so that we can proceed with this matter?

MS THABETE: Madame Chair, I'll speak to Patience, one of the ANC representatives, to try and arrange for legal representation for Mr Seshaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can do that and if one is found then this matter may be capable of being proceeded with sometime next week?

MS THABETE: I'll do so Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you then advise the Committee in chambers of the discussions that you would have had with Patience about legal representation for Mr Seshaba so that we can know whether it is a matter that must be accommodated for the next week's roll?

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair, I'll do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Shakoane, you are permitted to leave. Thank you.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHAKOANE

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, now that this matter will have to stand down until further instructions have been obtained from the ANC's TRC desk, where do we go from here? We were to hear the two matters of Mr Mahlangu and Mr Dithage?

MS THABETE: Madame Chair, Advocate Mphaga who is representing Mr Mahlangu and Mr Mokhasoane has just telephoned me. He went there to look for them, he found one of the applicants who expressed some view regarding his application but I would like to talk to the Committee in chambers about this and he said he'll be coming here, he'll here by half past 3, he would like to give a report back to the Committee Members.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case I think we shall adjourn and reconvene tomorrow at half past 9. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS