CHAIRPERSON: For the record, I'm Judge Pillay. I am going to ask my fellow Panellists to identify themselves for purposes of the record, and then also the other members who are party to this hearing.
ADV SIGODI: It's Advocate Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.
DR TSOTSI: Doctor Tsotsi from Port Elizabeth.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Dawie Claasen, attorney from Pretoria, appearing today on behalf of the applicants, Mr Sigudu, Mvelase and Manqele.
MS THABETE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee, Ms Thabile Thabete, the Evidence Leader for the TRC.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I thank the Committee for its indulgence. I would like to start by calling Mr Thulani Aaron Sigudu.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to the taking of the oath?
MR SIGUDU: (sworn states)
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well Mr Claassen, proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Sigudu, you are the applicant for in the application for amnesty in terms of Act 34 of 1995, before this Committee today, for a crime which you were sentenced on the 9th of December 1994, is that correct?
MR SIGUDU: That is correct.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu are you a member or affiliated to any political party?
MR SIGUDU: I am a follower.
MR CLAASSEN: A follower of which party?
MR SIGUDU: Of the IFP.
MR CLAASSEN: How long have you been a follower of the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: Since I was at school.
MR CLAASSEN: Can you tell the Committee what year that was approximately?
MR SIGODI: It has been many years now. I have forgotten the count of years.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, at the time of the Commission of this offence for which you are seeking amnesty, were you a member or affiliated to the IFP at that stage?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MR CLAASSEN: Were you an ordinary follower, or did you hold any position in office within the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: I was an ordinary member.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, you submitted a Form 1 application form for this Amnesty Application in December 1996, and annexed to this particular application was, also marked Annexure A, was a statement written on your behalf which was also signed by you, is that correct?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is correct.
MR CLAASSEN: And you are aware, and know the contents of this said statement?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, if I may just point you to a few points in this statement made by yourself, could you just very briefly, very, very briefly, tell the Committee what exactly occurred on the day of this particular incident.
MR SIGUDU: On that particular day, it was myself and the people who were in my company and it happened that we ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Who are those people?
INTERPRETER: Mr Chairperson, I don’t seem to be coming through, he doesn’t seem to be hearing anything.
MR CLAASSEN: I don’t know if the reception is any better, if the Interpreter could just perhaps speak to him. He seems to be hearing now.
CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people in whose company you were?
MR SIGUDU: It was Manqele, Thulani Mvelase and Ziegfried Mzolo.
CHAIRPERSON: Thulani who?
MR SIGUDU: Thulani Mvelase.
CHAIRPERSON: And who else?
MR SIGUDU: Sampson Manqele and Siegfried Mzolo.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Sigudu, would you please continue, what happened on that particular day?
MR SIGUDU: On that particular day we committed a crime, myself, Siegfried and the others and this white person, this white lady was shot and we took the money, but I must indicate that we did not succeed in fleeing with the money because the police came and they fired shots and Mvelase was injured.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, could you just chronologically just very briefly state what actually occurred when you committed this crime.
MR SIGUDU: What happened was that we, Manqele came to us and he showed us the place after having been showed the place by Mvelase and they showed us the people and we went to these two people and we pointed our firearms at them and we demanded money. At that very same instant this white lady who was in the company of another white person got injured and an alarm went off and we fled. The police came and pursued us, fired shots at us and Mvelase got injured and that is how we were arrested.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, this affidavit which you submitted as Annexure A with your initial application, who took this affidavit from you?
MR SIGUDU: I did this affidavit with the assistance of an IFP legal representative.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, you, in this particular affidavit, you state that on that particular day, that you had been armed with a .38 special pistol, is this indeed correct?
MR SIGUDU: I did not have a firearm that day, only Manqele and Mvelase had firearms.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, have you got any explanation for this apparent mis-communication between yourself and the person who took this statement from you?
MR SIGUDU: May the speaker please repeat the question.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you. Mr Sigudu, have you got any explanation for this apparent mis-communication between yourself and the person who took this statement from you?
MR SIGUDU: He said it transpired that I had a firearm and I indicated to him that I was not in possession of any firearm, only Manqele and Mvelase had firearms.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Sigudu. You, by your own ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why is it then, that the person who recorded your statement, how did it come that that person wrote down there that you were armed with a .38 special pistol?
MR SIGUDU: Maybe that is how he wanted it because he also learned that I was also charged for being in possession of a firearm. Truly speaking, the one person or persons who had firearms were Mvelase and Manqele.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sigudu, you were, by your own testimony, part and parcel of what happened that day. What did you seek to achieve by what had happened there?
MR SIGUDU: We intended to strengthen our organisation financially so that we could purchase firearms. This resulted from the situation that prevailed at the time or the atmosphere rather.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, this atmosphere that you are referring to, what do you mean by this?
MR SIGUDU: I am referring here to the conflict between the IFP and the ANC. There was a conflict going on so that there was a need for firearms so that we should be in the position to protect ourselves in case we are attacked.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, where did you live at the time of this incident and why do you keep referring to "ourselves", what do you mean by that?
MR SIGUDU: By "us", I am referring to "us" as an organisation and I was staying at Dube Hostel.
MR CLAASSEN: Your co-applicants before this Amnesty Committee today, where did they reside at the time of this incident?
MR SIGUDU: They were at Dube as well.
ADV SIGODI: Were they at Dube at the hostel or were they at Dube, at the township?
MR SIGUDU: They were at Dube Hostel.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, do you know if any of your fellow applicants were also affiliated to a political party?
MR SIGUDU: They were members of the organisation to which I belong.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, did you receive instructions from anyone to commit the crime that occurred on that particular day?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, there were instructions that we received.
MR CLAASSEN: From whom were these instructions received?
MR SIGUDU: These instructions came from Wiseman.
MR CLAASSEN: Who was Wiseman?
MR SIGUDU: He is one of the inmates at the hostel.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu do you know if Mr Wiseman was in any way affiliated with a political party?
MR SIGUDU: He too was a member of the IFP.
MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me Mr Chair. Mr Sigudu, do you know if he was anything more than an ordinary member of the IFP, what was his standing within the IFP?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen tell me, is your client handicapped?
MR CLAASSEN: No Mr Chairman, he is not.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Can it be interpreted to him, please. Just explain to the witness how he could use this microphone please.
INTERPRETER EXPLAINS USE OF MICROPHONE TO APPLICANT
MR SIGUDU: Yes, thank you.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sigudu, just getting back to the question of Mr Wiseman. Do you know if he held any specific or special position within the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: I would not say I have knowledge to that effect but he was present during meetings and I assumed that he is one of us.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, did you in any way yourself stand to benefit anything from committing this particular crime?
MR SIGUDU: No, I did not intend to gain anything. This was intended for the IFP, not for any personal gain. I wanted to strengthen my organisation.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, the victim of this incident, did you know her or have anything particular against the victim?
MR SIGUDU: It is precisely for this reason that I have come before this Commission. My profuse apologies for the injuring of these people or this person.
MR CLAASSEN: Are you presently still a member of the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, just in conclusion, was there anything else you could have done to further the cause as you say, of the IFP, why was what occurred on that specific day, why was it necessary?
MR SIGUDU: At the time, during those years, it was not easy to do something else in strengthening the organisation, so that the one person who led us to that, saw it as well as we did, fit to do as we did to strengthen our position.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions for this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sigudu, you have testified that you are a follower of the IFP, were you also a member of the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MS THABETE: Did you have a membership card?
MR SIGUDU: I took receipt of the card many years ago whilst I was still at home, I don’t have the card as of this moment.
MS THABETE: Before you committed the robbery in question, were there any other activities that you were involved in as a member of the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: The role that I played was that, as a hostel inmate, I had to partake in the protection of the hostel community in case we were attacked.
MS THABETE: And how did you used to protect the community that you were staying with?
MR SIGUDU: It is known that there was a conflict between the IFP and the ANC and we sometimes suffered attacks and myself as a hostel inmate, had to fight under those circumstances.
MS THABETE: Coming back to the incident in question, on page 5 of your statement, you mention the four of you that is, Sampson Manqele, Thulani Mvelase, Mzolo and yourself, who planned, or to embark on a robbery of the deceased. How did it come about that the four of you planned to rob?
MR SIGUDU: It was for the reason that we had to get money, for example if we had lost some of our supporters during violence or going to rallies, we had to have money.
MS THABETE: Maybe you did not understand my question properly, my question is how did it come about that the four of you specifically decided to rob? Were you chosen by the organisation or did you just decide by yourselves that you that you want to rob?
MR SIGUDU: We did not take that decision, Wiseman took that decision. He was part of the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: You see in your statement, you say there that
"we decided to embark on a robbery"
That is why you are being asked now. Who was the author of this plan, was it an organisational decision or a decision of the four of you only?
MR SIGUDU: Wiseman is the one person, Wiseman Kanyele, came up with this idea.
DR TSOTSI: Mr Sigudu, on page 10 Manqele seems to say that they received no instructions from anybody to carry out this, but you say you got this from Wiseman, Wiseman Mvelase. On page 10, it says "we" and then
"I did not receive any instructions from anybody"
... and so on. What do you say to that?
MR SIGUDU: I think he is referring to the higher echelon of the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that it was IFP policy to conduct itself like this?
MR SIGUDU: It is for this reason that I am before this Commission because I know that it is not the policy of the IFP, I actually broke the policies of the IFP. The IFP should forgive me and the family of the deceased should forgive me.
CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you then correctly, there is no issue or question of instructions from higher up because that was not the policy of the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, I would say that is correct. It is precisely the reason why I am before this Commission to apologise to the IFP as well because this is not the policy of the IFP. I would like to apologise to the deceased as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Then we come back to the question that Dr Tsotsi asked, have you got any comment on the application of Sampson? He is likely to come tell us when he testifies that what you people did was not the result of any instructions from anybody.
MR SIGUDU: As far as I know, we were following instructions because ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: From who?
MR SIGUDU: Wiseman.
CHAIRPERSON: That’s what we need to know. I am not trying to trap you or catch you out here. You say that the IFP did not have a policy of robbing and murdering people, where would Wiseman then have got the authority to give you the instruction to go shoot these people and get the money?
MR SIGUDU: I would say that is, or should I say that followed his perception of the situation, that’s all I can say.
CHAIRPERSON: Look you must try to help us, you’ve made an application for amnesty. We still don’t know for what yet. You must help us understand your application, do you understand? ...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not activated.
CHAIRPERSON: Part of your case is that you received instructions to embark upon this crime or crimes, then you say that Wiseman is the person who gave these instructions. You also tell us that the IFP did not have a policy which would justify your actions, hence we must try to find out then on what basis could you have accepted that Wiseman was giving you a proper instruction, an organisational instruction. That’s all we are trying to find out? And we are not trying to be difficult, we just need to understand it.
MR SIGUDU: Yes, I can answer that. Yes, I am saying this was not the policy of the IFP, that is why I decided to come before the Commission to apologise to the IFP and the entire South African population, but then the situation at the time was such that such things as we did were happening.
CHAIRPERSON: How were you able to act on behalf of an organisation in a manner which would not be condoned by that very organisation?
MR SIGUDU: I indicated that we were trying to get some money to assist in the event of one of us dying or attending rallies. I was doing all of this following the circumstances that prevailed.
CHAIRPERSON: I don’t follow you. At the end of your statement you say that you intended giving all this money to the IFP, do you recall that?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: How were you going to explain to the IFP when you handed them the money, where you got it from and how you got it?
MR SIGUDU: Wiseman was the one responsible for the explanation because our intention was to hand the money over to him.
MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Sigudu, exactly what was your plan with regard to the robbery?
MR SIGUDU: Our plan was to assist our organisation financially in the purchasing of firearms.
MS THABETE: Maybe I didn’t put my question clearly. What I am asking is, with regard to the robbery of Miss Govender, exactly what did you plan, how did you plan to rob her?
MR SIGUDU: Wiseman took one of us to the area where this lady was shot. Wiseman - excuse me, would you please repeat the question.
MS THABETE: Mr Chair, can you allow me to ask him in Zulu?
CHAIRPERSON: That must be done through the interpreter.
MS THABETE: Sure, thanks Mr Chair.
Mr Sigudu, one question I am asking you is that you are saying you planned this, you sat down and planned this robbery, that you will go and rob Miss Govender. Now, my question is, during the time of planning, how did you plan it, how did you plan this robbery?
MR SIGUDU: Wiseman brought to our attention that he knows better. He had said that this person keeps money, keeps cash in the bank and he was going to take one of us and he took Manqele indeed and he went to show him. After he had done that he came back and told us and a few days later we went then and executed the plan. Manqele first showed us the person and we did that.
MS THABETE: You are saying Wiseman went with Mr Manqele to show him the routine, is that correct?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MS THABETE: Then you say, Mr Manqele came back to you to report, is that correct?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MS THABETE: Exactly what did Mr Manqele report to you?
MR SIGUDU: He told us that he had seen the place because Wiseman had shown it to him.
MS THABETE: Wiseman showed him what, or who?
MR SIGUDU: He said he showed him the person who is in charge of the money, the one whom we were supposed to rob.
MS THABETE: Is that all he reported back to you?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is exactly what he reported to us.
MS THABETE: Mr Sigudu, why I am asking you this is because we have got a handwritten statement from Mr Manqele when he made his indemnity application, where he states that Mr Wiseman told him that the victim was working with him, they were working together, and that Mr Wiseman was retrenched because of that said lady and also because the said lady hated black people, especially members of Inkatha Freedom Party. That’s on page 13 of the bundle. And then he goes on, that is Mr Manqele, goes on to say before he could say anything, he saw Wiseman pulling out the gun and Mr Manqele tried to stop him but the bullet went off and it injured the woman. What is your comment to this statement?
MR SIGUDU: I have no knowledge of what you have just read.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I may, just for the record, that is that Mr Manqele has not yet testified. It is indeed true that this application or statement as read by Ms Thabete is indeed pertained on page 14 and 15 of his application. It is however my instruction from the applicant that the version given in his general amnesty application, his indemnity application - you will see that is was superseded by a later application, and it is my instruction now that the information in this statement is indeed not entirely truthful.
MS THABETE: Can I proceed, Mr Chair? So Mr Sigudu ...(intervention)
DR TSOTSI: As you're saying, the whole statement is incorrect or is it portions of it that are incorrect?
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Dr Tsotsi. It is my instruction that the contents of that indemnity application is in toto incorrect, as it was done for reasons other than amnesty and that the later amnesty application, it's my instructions, is indeed the correct version of the happenings.
MS THABETE: Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Sigudu, you have said you don’t know anything about the statement that was written by Mr Manqele and I take what your legal representative is saying, but upon reading your statement on page 5, you say, it is the second paragraph
"We decided to embark on a robbery of a specific person, known to Wiseman Kanyele"
Can you maybe explain to the Committee members how was the victim known to Mr Wiseman Kanyele?
MR SIGUDU: I have no idea as to how he knew the victim.
MS THABETE: So are you saying that he just said he knew her but he didn’t explain how he knew her, is that what you are saying?
MR SIGUDU: What I am saying is he knew her but I did not know as to how he knew the person, or the victim rather.
MS THABETE: Before Mr Manqele came back to report to you about the said victim, did you know her at all?
MR SIGUDU: I did not know the victim.
MS THABETE: Sorry, I just want to go back to your plan. I didn’t quite get your answer as to what the plan was, but I won’t pursue that question any further. What I want to find out from you is, in your plan did it come about, were there any intentions to kill the said victim?
MR SIGUDU: No, that did not come across. This is why I am here to apply for amnesty in front of this Committee.
MS THABETE: Can you explain then to the Committee Members how the victim was killed and why, if it wasn’t your intention to do so?
MR SIGUDU: The late or the deceased, the way I looked at this whole thing, the way things tend to be and tend to happen, ...(indistinct) was shot by Manqele, but it wasn’t our intention to go and kill.
MS THABETE: I don’t think you have answered my question as such. How was she killed and why was she killed? I understand that Mr Manqele killed her, but how did this happen and why did it happen?
MR SIGUDU: The way she died, the victim that is, I heard this gunshot suddenly and when I looked around I realised that she was already shot and I fled.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know when you participated in the robbery that your colleagues were armed?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, I knew that.
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think they had firearms with them during this robbery?
MR SIGUDU: Well, I think - I won’t say maybe that I know for sure why they had firearms with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell us.
MR SIGUDU: Well I think they had firearms. They will tell you they will furnish you with the information regarding why they had firearms at that given point in time because they are present.
CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you. What did you think could happen there with these firearms. I want to know what is going through your head. I will ask them when they ...(indistinct), but what went through your head at the time?
MR SIGUDU: I think at the time when this happened I was still young, very young, I will not have been in a position to think competently, but what I knew was that we were going there to rob a certain person. That much I knew.
CHAIRPERSON: With firearms, not so?
MR SIGUDU: They had firearms in their possession, those in my company.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew they had firearms that time?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, I knew that.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you think they were going to do with these firearms?
MR SIGUDU: Well, the way the whole thing was, I did not know as to what those firearms were going to be used for and what they were thinking about those firearms, but what I know is that and what I knew was that we were going to rob a certain person but I could not tell what went on in their minds.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you what went on in their minds, I am asking what happened in your mind. I will ask them about their minds when they testify. What did you expect was going to happen with those firearms?
MR SIGUDU: If I also had a firearm in my possession, I think I would be in a better position to answer your question now, but I don’t think I am going to answer the question.
CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear you correctly, you are not going to answer the question?
MR SIGUDU: This is a difficult question for me to answer because I did not have a firearm in my possession, it would have been better if I also had a firearm in my possession and you were asking me a question relating to me as to what was I going to do with the firearm or what were my intentions of carrying the firearm.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, let’s get onto the actual business then of the use of the firearms. Do you, or did you associate yourself with the killing of that woman or not, when she was shot?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, I am implicated in this whole thing because I participated in the plan and we planned, although we did not intend to kill, that was not our primary intention, to kill.
CHAIRPERSON: Listen to my question. It is a very important question for your case. You tell me you can’t answer the question as to what you thought was going to happen with those guns because you were not in possession of a firearm at the time. I am asking you, did you associate yourself with the eventual killing of that lady or not?
MR SIGUDU: The way this whole thing is, I ...(indistinct) me the fact that I am implicated because I was present.
CHAIRPERSON: Listen to me. I am not asking you to make any admissions if you don’t feel like making it, all I am asking is, when that lady was shot there, did you intend her to die, do you associate yourself with her killing or not?
MR SIGUDU: The killing, the act of killing, was not discussed but because the person was eventually killed, I am implicated in that and although we did not plan this killing, but now that it happened I associate myself with it.
CHAIRPERSON: You intended that she died?
MR SIGUDU: As for me that was not my intention, that the person or the victim should be killed.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) easier, because you are making my position very difficult. Did you agree with her killing?
MR SIGUDU: That was never there, the killing, the act of killing was never discussed.
CHAIRPERSON: After she was shot, did you agree that it was correct that she was shot?
MR SIGUDU: This is how I will explain. This is why I am here, but now that it has happened it does not mean that this was planned initially.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sigudu, ...(intervention)
DR TSOTSI: When you saw your associates carrying guns to go and rob, did it occur to you that they might use these guns to shoot the lady?
MR SIGUDU: I don’t think I had any idea of that, that they would kill or end up killing or shooting, I had no idea of that.
DR TSOTSI: Why were they carrying firearms as far as you were concerned, if not to shoot with them?
MR SIGUDU: This is why I said earlier on that I will, or rather I am not in a position to answer competently this question because I had no firearm in my possession and they had firearms.
DR TSOTSI: Did you raise any objections to the use of the firearms?
MR SIGUDU: I had no objection when they used the firearm.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Sigudu, when was this plan hatched, was it hatched on that same day of the killing or did you discuss it the previous day or two days before?
MR SIGUDU: This thing was planned on the 30th the way we planned it.
ADV SIGODI: 30th of November?
MR SIGUDU: Not November, no, I think it was on the 30th although I don’t quite remember as to which month it was, November or October, around there.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, but the murder took place on the 3rd of December according to the indictment that I have here.
MR SIGUDU: You mean it took place on the 30th?
CHAIRPERSON: Look, when you discussed this issue of robbing this woman, did the discussion take place on the same day she died or on another day?
MR SIGUDU: It took a number of days before the action itself took place.
ADV SIGODI: Approximately how many days before?
MR SIGUDU: I don’t think that it would have taken 10 days, I think it was about 3,4 or 5 days, around there.
ADV SIGODI: Okay, so I take it that this was a very carefully planned robbery, was it? It was well planned, it was not something that just happened in one day, it was something that was planned over a number of days?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, it was planned but not for long days, many days.
ADV SIGODI: Okay, I'll leave that, but then do you know where your co-applicants got the guns from?
MR SIGUDU: As far as that is concerned, I bear no knowledge.
ADV SIGODI: So when did you first see the guns?
MR SIGUDU: I first saw the gun with Wise ...(intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Yes, when, was it on the day of the murder or was it on the day before the murder?
MR SIGUDU: Days prior to this day in question.
ADV SIGODI: Did he say what he was going to do with the gun?
MR SIGUDU: As a person who brought this to our attention and these guns as well, the way this whole thing happened, they were not presented as part of the plan to be used to kill.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete have you got any more questions?
MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chair, I do.
Mr Sigudu, did the deceased have a bag of money with her or did she carry the bag of money with her?
MR SIGUDU: There were bags of money.
MS THABETE: Sorry, I didn’t hear your answer.
CHAIRPERSON: There were bags of money.
MR SIGUDU: There were two bags of money.
MS THABETE: In your statement on page 5 you say
"Mvelase and Mzolo grabbed at the bags of money and ran away"
And then further on, on page 23, in your letter on number 1 you say:
"No money was taken from the deceased because we were arrested at the scene of the crime. "
Can you clarify whether you did take the money or you didn’t?
MR SIGUDU: What I will explain is the money yes, was taken yes, but immediately on the scene of the crime we heard a sound of an alarm and suddenly the police appeared and started shooting at us and the money remained there, or was left there.
MS THABETE: So it would be correct for me to say that what you wrote on page 23 is not true in the sense that you did take the money but when you were being shot, you left it at the scene and ran away? Would that be correct for me to say so?
MR SIGUDU: Yes.
MS THABETE: You have indicated in your application that you wanted to rob because you wanted to buy arms, to purchase arms for the IFP, is that correct?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is correct.
MS THABETE: According to your plan, who was going to purchase the arms for the IFP?
MR SIGUDU: Wiseman would have been the one, Wiseman Kanyele.
MS THABETE: I don’t know whether I heard you correctly, are you saying according to your plan you were going to give the money to Wiseman Kanyele?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is correct.
MS THABETE: So when you said that you were going to give the money to the IFP branch, that’s not correct? Sorry, in page 5 you say "we intended to hand all the money to the IFP branch, you’ve just said now you were going to give the money to Wiseman Kanyele and my question is, does it mean then that it is not correct here that you were going to give the money to the IFP branch?
MR SIGUDU: I would not say that it was not true, we would have given the money to him and he would have been the one who will take the money to the branch of the IFP.
MS THABETE: I thought that you just testified that you knew that it wasn’t the policy of the IFP to rob to purchase firearms, how then would Wiseman have taken this money to the branch when it wasn't - sorry I haven’t finished, when it wasn’t their policy to rob people to purchase arms?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, it was not the policy of the organisation but because of the situation that brought this to the effect that money should be raised somehow, we should get hold of money and be able to purchase.
MS THABETE: I don’t know whether you understand my question. I don’t think you are answering my question, but I will leave that aspect. One more question from me. Going back to the scene of the crime, when the deceased was shot, exactly where were you?
MR SIGUDU: I was present, I was there.
MS THABETE: Mr Sigudu, I am asking you this question because earlier on when I asked you a question as to why the victim was shot, you said you don’t know because you didn’t see anything, now you are saying that you were there. So I would like to ask you again if you were there, why was she shot and how was she shot? What happened, how did it come about that she was shot because according to your plan, you were going to take the bags of money, you were not going to kill her and you had no intentions to kill her. How did it happen that she was shot?
MR SIGUDU: As to the shooting I don’t know how it came about, but I was there when it happened.
MS THABETE: I’m sorry, Mr Sigudu, you are not answering my question. Can you give us a picture of what happened that day. You went there, you saw the deceased, what happened, did she scream, how did it come about that she was shot? I am sure you were there, you can give us a picture of what happened that day. Please answer my question.
MR SIGUDU: On the day in question when this happened, we arrived there, Manqele was already showing this person and he shown this person to us as well and we went and we approached this person and my colleagues drew out their guns. Suddenly, I heard a sound of a gunshot and when I looked I found this person was on the ground, had fallen and we heard the alarm, the sound of the alarm and we fled. The police approached and they started shooting at us and Mvelase sustained injuries, just about the only one but he did not die, Mvelase that is.
MS THABETE: When you approached the deceased, did you ask her to hand the bags of money to you, did you say anything or your colleagues just drew guns and they shot her?
MR SIGUDU: When we got to her, they drew out their guns and they told her that
"We want money"
... and suddenly I heard the sound of the gunshot and we fled.
MS THABETE: Mr Sigudu, in the light of your testimony or your evidence today, what would you say you are applying for amnesty for?
MR SIGUDU: My reason for being here is to apologise for what happened, for what we did to the family of the victim. It was not our intention to kill eventually, but as well as IFP, I would like to apologise to them and ask for forgiveness as well that we did not obey its policy and we found ourselves in that particular situation and we ended up doing what we did not intend to do from the onset and to the community at large I would like to apologise.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, that’s all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
CHAIRPERSON: Got any questions?
MR CLAASSEN: I’ve got no further questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi?
DR TSOTSI: Did you yourself commit any offence? The question is, did you yourself commit any offence in this matter?
MR SIGUDU: You mean before that or are you referring, which period are you referring to now, or then?
CHAIRPERSON: At that incident. What do you hold yourself responsible for, why are you applying for amnesty? In respect of which offences?
MR SIGUDU: Well, according to me, I would say I did commit an offence because I did participate in this, resulting in the killing. I was part of this group.
DR TSOTSI: I see. The offence was robbery and murder, is this what you admit you have committed, is that right?
MR SIGUDU: I may say that I only took part in robbing, not killing as such, but because that happened at any rate this is why I am taking responsibility and that’s why I am here.
DR TSOTSI: Are you asking for amnesty for the murder or not?
MR SIGUDU: I think I also ask for amnesty because I played a certain role in this whole thing.
ADV SIGODI: You say that you got instructions from Wiseman Kanyele, what authority did he have over you to give you that instruction?
MR SIGUDU: I wouldn’t say he held a certain position as such or he was of authority, but he was one person who will always be present in meetings and such for the organisation, so that he is the one who brought this idea and this particular plan to us.
ADV SIGODI: In other words you did not have any reason to follow him, you could have easily said, "no, I will not take part in this"?
MR SIGUDU: I wouldn’t have done that because of the reasons he brought to my attention and I could tell that they were relevant and legitimate reasons and this is why I also, on my own volition took part.
ADV SIGODI: No, the point that I am coming to is that you had no reason not to disobey him, you only fell in with the plan because you believed what he said, but he had no authority over you, that is the point I am coming to. You didn’t have to follow him but you did so because you believed what he was telling you but he did not have any authority over you?
MR SIGUDU: I did this because he was a person who respected the organisation and always was taking part in the activities of the organisation and to me appeared a man of substance and the reasons he brought and furnished to me were quite legitimate and because all this was being done in the name of the organisation, I fell into it.
MS THABETE: Who were the leaders of the IFP at the Dube Hostel?
MR SIGUDU: The leaders of the IFP were Mr Ndlovo and others that have left, like Mvelase.
CHAIRPERSON: That statement that you made on page 4 and 5, did you read that statement before you signed it?
MR SIGUDU: You mean page 5? Please I will require the Commissioner to read it. Oh, I know it.
CHAIRPERSON: You read it before you signed it?
MR SIGUDU: The person who wrote this statement read the statement back to me and I signed it.
CHAIRPERSON: And you agreed with what he read back, or she read back to you?
MR SIGUDU: Yes, I agreed with what the person read back to me.
CHAIRPERSON: These instructions that you talk about that came from Wiseman, what exactly was this instruction or instructions?
MR SIGUDU: The instruction that came from Wiseman entailed the plan. Because of the situation that prevailed at the time, he felt it appropriate that something of this nature be done because things were difficult and the situation was not quite friendly and in case our members die we should be in a position to bury them and we should be in a position to protect ourselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sigudu, you know you are talking in riddles, it doesn’t help your application. Let me help you now, again. You say the actual killing of this lady was never discussed, it was never part of the instruction. All I want to know, in simple terms, what exactly was the instruction?
MR SIGUDU: The instruction was for us to get money only, that’s all.
CHAIRPERSON: That’s all, no robbery was discussed, no killing was discussed, just that you must obtain money?
MR SIGUDU: We should obtain money in the way of robbing, that’s all.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, was killing this lady absolutely necessary for the robbery?
MR SIGUDU: I don’t think it was necessary, but as I already explained earlier on, the person who killed her, I don’t know what prompted him to do or kill the person or what led him to end up shooting.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) stand correctly you wanted no part of that, the killing part of this whole operation?
MR SIGUDU: Please would you repeat your question?
CHAIRPERSON: You wanted no part of the killing section of this operation?
MR SIGUDU: According to me, I will not say I intended to kill, that was not my intention altogether.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the lady armed?
MR SIGUDU: I did not see any firearm in her possession or with her.
CHAIRPERSON: What were you going to do if this woman resisted the robbery?
MR SIGUDU: Well, in that case I wouldn’t have known what would transpire if she did that, if she resisted.
CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr Sigudu, you got an instruction to carry out a robbery for the organisation, you people discussed it, what were you going to do if she took that bag of money and beat you in order to resist the robbery? Surely you must have considered that possibility?
MR SIGUDU: Well, according to me I did not even have any weapon in my possession and I would not have known what my colleagues would have decided to do, should that happen.
CHAIRPERSON: You're excused. We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
WITNESS EXCUSED
