CHAIRPERSON: We will proceed to hear the matter concerning "George and Brown"
MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes, thank you. It's now 24 minutes to 12. The reason why we are apparently starting late after we adjourned until 20 past is because Ms Thabethe apparently has received some communication from Mr Broodryk and I was given to understand that she wanted to hand you something or address you on the issue.
MS THABETHE: That is correct, Mr Chair. I've made copies. We have received a letter from Mr Broodryk. He is saying in the letter that he is not interested in coming and he doesn't know anything about the incident. I've made copies, I'll hand them now as soon as I've stapled them.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So when you hand that in we'll give it a reference number and things.
MR VISSER: Chairman, we had a letter from Mr Gloy, I think. I was wondering whether one could - I'm just looking for it. I prepared a new list of Exhibits to bring it up to date, Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: It was Exhibit K.
MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. Perhaps because it deals with the same incident one might mark this Exhibit K2, K1 or K2. K1. Yes. We haven't seen the document yet so we don't know if anything turns on it but if he only says he knows nothing about it, that accords with the evidence that we gave you from Schoon.
Chairperson, in the incident of Brown and George. Very briefly, this is an incident which took place apparently just inside the border of Swaziland near Oshoek border post, in which it appears that two people were killed. Chairperson, we have been able to establish, by virtue of a news clipping from the Oggendblad which came into my possession via Gen Wandrag, that this incident apparently took place on the 8th of December 1981. The newspaper report is dated, the newspaper itself was distributed on the 9th of December and it refers to "The unrecognised bodies of two persons were found close to the Oshoek border post. A firearm was in one of the person's hands" and then the rest Chairperson contains a lot of speculation on the part of the newspaper which I don't believe is relevant for your consumption at this stage. So we won't hand in the newspaper report, but the point is that it is fairly clear that it was two people and there was a question of a firearm and it's dated the 9th of December referring to yesterday, which will bring us to the 8th of December. So in that sense Chairperson, and I don't want to ask for formal amendments, but where a different date, I think they refer to August/September 1981, all the applicants, you will then read into that the 8th of September, if you will, no December, if you will.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Visser. Can I just get the housekeeping in order? Can you just indicate which, I have a whole list of names, who do you represent in this, or can I read to you what my list says?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, there is an easy way. I appear for everybody except the two Vissers, G Visser and S Visser. Mr Moolman has since died. He handed in an application but he has since died, Chairperson. His application, I'm just looking for it now, it's in bundle 4 Chairperson, it's a little thin bundle and it's stated in the index as page 815 to 820. He has since died.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, I've got that.
MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I appear for Gert Visser AM5002.
MS VAN DER WALT: I appear for Schalk Jan Visser, AM5000/97.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. The panel is as indicated on this record. Mr Visser, are you going to commence?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, I will. Provisionally we have agreed with my learned friends that we will lead five witnesses and in order of sequence, the sixth witness will be Gert Visser, thereafter we'll deal with the rest. In order to give you as coherent a picture from the beginning as possible we will deal with the witnesses in the order of Mr Nel. Although he wasn't the Commanding Officer at Security Branch he's the one, you will hear from him, who carried the docket in relation to the Voortrekkerhoogte attack and this is really what sparked off this whole incident, the information which was gathered by him, as a result of that. So we'll ask him to take you through all the facts and give you the background.
We will then deal with his immediate Commander, Gen Viktor, Chairperson and then we will, with your leave, move an application to have Brig Schoon included here and you will have noticed that his name is mentioned all over and this particular incident in not specifically identifiable in his amnesty application. We would like to move a very brief application in that regard. If it's successful, we'll call Schoon.
Then we will call Strydom - I'm sorry - then we will call Gen Wandrag, who was the commanding officer of the Task Force to tell you what he knows about it and the instructions he gave to the next witness, which will be Gen Strydom, who was the Commander of the Task Team and at that stage we'll go to Gert Visser. We'll be jumping around a little bit between the Security Police and the Task Team, but that can't be avoided.
CHAIRPERSON: Gen Wandrag you say was the Commanding Officer of the Task Force and Strydom was in charge, the Commander of the actual group.
MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson, yes.
ADV DE JAGER: So Moolman is the one that is deceased and his application, will you continue with his application for the delict?
MR VISSER: We will continue with it Chairperson. His role will be very clear from the evidence of the others and at the end of the day we will ask you to grant him amnesty for his participation, particularly in so far as his estate may become liable as a result of these applications for damages in regard to any delict which he may have committed.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, please can you just continue running down that list? You are then going to interpose Visser.
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, but after that we haven't got a further arrangement, but we will let you know as we go on, but the witnesses who come after that really have very little to tell you, you will see. It will be covered basically by the evidence of Nel on the part of the Security Police as well as Strydom on the part of the Task Team. Once you've heard their evidence, that's really all the evidence that you would need, but the rest of them will come and tell you what their personal involvement with the incident was.
We would then ask you to allow Mr Nel to give evidence. He prefers to give his evidence in Afrikaans. We've prepared a statement for Mr Nel, Chairperson, which is already before you, on your list it will be Exhibit E and my attorney instructs me that you have it before you. We will of course refer to Exhibit A. We will also refer to bundle 5 and we will refer to bundles 1 and 4 as well Chairperson.
FREDERIK JACOBUS PETRUS NEL: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Nel, you applied for amnesty in the incident which is referred to as the Murder of George and Brown. Is that correct?
MR NEL: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Your amnesty application appears in bundle 1, from page 99.
MR NEL: That's correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: To page 107. Do you confirm the correctness of the contents of your amnesty application?
MR NEL: I do, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: A statement has been drawn up for you, which is before you, which serves as Exhibit E. You will refer to that statement and you request that the contents of Exhibit A, which serves before the Committee, be taken into consideration when your amnesty application is considered, as well as references as referred to in Exhibit A. If we could just pause at page 99 of bundle 1, there is a very cryptic set-up of your service in the Police Service and you mention at which departments you are. Is it correct that from 1957 to 1963 you were attached to the uniformed branch in Johannesburg North? Is that correct?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And from 1963 to 1969 you were attached to the Detective Branch and this was first of all in Sandton and at Halfway House?
MR NEL: That's correct. Sandton, Norwood, Halfway House.
MR VISSER: And then from 1969 to 1994 you were attached to the Security Branch at Pretoria.
MR NEL: Up till 1985 I was at Security Branch at Pretoria and then from 1985 to 1986 I was at Soweto and then I was at Security Head Office.
MR VISSER: Was this from 1986 or 1987?
MR NEL: 1987.
MR VISSER: And then from '87 you were attached to Head Office. In 1981 we refer to December 1981, what was your task specifically with the Security Branch?
MR NEL: It was mainly the investigation of terrorism.
MR VISSER: Was it normal investigative work, or was it a special type of investigative work?
MR NEL: It was a more specialised investigative work.
MR VISSER: And what was the work focused on?
MR NEL: It was internal security matters which entailed treason, terrorism and so forth.
MR VISSER: Very well, and this is what is referred to in another application which is referred to as a Special Task Team which investigated specific acts of terrorism?
MR NEL: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: If you would have regard for Exhibit E and on page 2, paragraph 2, please tell the Committee what your knowledge and participation in this incident was.
ADV DE JAGER: What was your rank in 1981?
MR NEL: I was a Captain Major. I think in 1981 I was a Major.
MR VISSER: Very well, please continue.
MR NEL: At approximately ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Please, I will interrupt you. May I interrupt you for one moment? These procedures are interpreted in different languages and I would like to request you to go at a reasonable pace and after a few sentences, please pause, so that the interpreters can keep up with the interpretation, Mr Nel.
MR NEL: At the middle of 1981 an attack was launched with a 122mm rocket on the Voortrekkerhoogte Military Base. The date was the 12th August, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Yes, while you pause there for a moment, I've already referred the Committee in bundle 5 at page 3 under the caption MK in action, you will find various attacks set out for which the ANC SACP Alliance and MK of course accepted responsibility and if you go to page 4, right at the bottom of that page on the right-hand side, you will see a date, 11th August, Voortrekkerhoogte Military Base hit by rocket attack in Pretoria and then at page 7 of that same bundle there is a little news clipping about this incident and then particularly at page 8 in an interview with the then President of the ANC Mr Oliver Tambo, reference is made to this but the date is given as the 12th of August, in the left-hand column at the top and this must have been correct because the interview was on the 1st of September of that very year, 1981, so it was very close after that incident that this interview was held and that was the date given so it was either the 11th or 12th, but probably the 12th of August 1981, when this attack took place Chairperson.
MR NEL: At approximately the same time the Impala electrical sub-station on the Pretoria/Bapsfontein Road outside Elardus Park, Pretoria was damaged with limpet mines.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, that you will find at page 4 of bundle 5, although it is not identified as the Impala sub-station, it's the one under July the 21st. Where it refers to 3 power stations in the Eastern Transvaal, it included this particular one, I am told. Is that correct, Mr Nel?
MR NEL: That's correct. The name is not visible there but from the city council I established that the name was Impala.
The African National Congress, the ANC, accepted responsibility for both these incidents and we've already pointed to that fact. Capt Gert Visser and myself handled the two dossiers. Our investigations led to the fact that one, Philemon Molefe of Mamelodi was arrested. He had a Ranchero vehicle which agreed with the description of a vehicle which caused suspicion in the vicinity of Laudium during the Voortrekkerhoogte attack.
During his interrogation he supplied valuable information with regard to both mentioned incidents and in co-operation with the investigative team, he contacted a certain Johannes Mnisi in Swaziland by telephone. Johannes Mnisi was already known to the security community as a prominent MK activist. Molefe set up an appointment with Mnisi to meet him at the Oshoek border post in the RSA. This information was conveyed to Head Office by the Divisional Commander of Northern Transvaal, the then Col J J Viktor. He is currently retired and is a Lieutenant-General. An ambush was planned and Johannes Mnisi was arrested close to the Oshoek border post within the RSA. During his interrogation he admitted that he received military training from the ANC. He has applied to the Amnesty Committee for a number of incidents where he was involved, amongst others the Voortrekkerhoogte attack.
MR VISSER: You were present during that application, if I'm correct?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And what other incidents did Mr Mnisi apply for?
MR NEL: He applied for the Impala electrical sub-station and for the attack on Magoos bar he also applied, as well as a few other sub-power stations which were damaged in the Eastern Transvaal. Mnisi admitted that he was sent to the RSA by Siphiwe Nyanda, Abubaker Ismail with his MK name Rashid, and MK George who were all prominent leadership figures in MK Special Operations.
During his arrest, Johannes Mnisi had in his possession a piece of see-through plastic, A4 size, with blue stripes. His instruction was to find a certain number road map and a motor vehicle. If the plastic, which was found in his possession, be placed on the road map the blue marks would indicate where the electrical line rand from the Eastern Transvaal to the Witwatersrand and Natal, close to the freeway. His instruction was to inform himself where all these points were so that he could lead his sabotage group from Swaziland. With his arrest the Security Branch was able to prevent infiltration and acts of terror. Mnisi gave his co-operation to the South African Police.
MR VISSER: This piece of evidence of the blue plastic, is this from personal knowledge, from your own experience?
MR NEL: This is from my own knowledge, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: He then co-operated with the South African Police?
MR NEL: Yes, he co-operated with the South African Police. He gave, he contacted a certain telephone number which was known to him in Swaziland where he arranged with one of his instructors, MK George, to fetch him in the RSA. Col Viktor requested authorisation of Gen Johan Coetzee to work along with Col Wandrag and a Special Task Force of the South African Police to arrest the person who was to meet Mnisi close, or at the border of Swaziland and such authorisation was given. All attempts had to be made to arrest these instruction givers so that the sabotage group could be arrested.
MR VISSER: Why was the Task Force brought in for this operation, can you tell us?
MR NEL: We had a strong suspicion that those persons, or we knew that those person were trained persons and we had a strong suspicion that they would be armed and the Task Force people were better equipped to handle such a situation.
The reason why the Task Force's co-operation was requested was because the persons, it was suspected that the persons would be armed and they would resist any arrest. It would seem that MK George did not want to come to the RSA to fetch Mnisi and he gave him an order to come at a certain time to a point in Swaziland. This was the evening of the 7th and 8th of December 1981. It was decided to continue with the attempt to find MK George but this would entail an abduction.
The following persons were involved with the operation, Col Wandrag, Col Viktor, Capt Visser, Detective W/O Selepe, he's deceased, Johannes Mnisi and myself and a number of members of the Special Task Force under the command of Capt M B Strydom. I have also determined in the meantime, although I don't have his name, is that Brig Schoon was also involved or he was present.
Lieut. Col Visser, the then Divisional Commander of the Security Branch Middelburg, met us at Oshoek border post and was informed. At Oshoek Capt Gert Visser took the Task Force members to the agreed meeting point in Swaziland. The other officers remained at Oshoek. At some stage members returned with the news that the car which was described to Mnisi did not stop at the right place and that the action was abandoned. The Task Force members then left for Pretoria. I drove with Mnisi to Carolina where he contacted MK George again.
MR VISSER: How far is that?
MR NEL: I speak under correction, but I think it is 30 kilometres. He contacted George to tell him that he had seen his vehicle but that he had stopped at the wrong place. He then again indicated the place which was identified by Capt Strydom and we returned to Oshoek. The Task Force members were told to return before or after I returned with Mnisi from Carolina, I think Capt Visser would give more evidence there.
The Task Force members went back into Swaziland.
At some stage we heard some gunfire in Swaziland and a while later Capt Visser and Capt Strydom reported that the vehicle had arrived. An attempt was made to arrest these persons and a skirmish followed. No persons escaped from the vehicle since the vehicle was set alight and the occupants had died. I would accept that two persons had died in this action and I would also assume that these person were MK George and MK Brown and I unfortunately do not have any more particulars with regard to the identity of the deceased, or any other information. I am aware that the attempt to abduct these persons from Swaziland was illegal. I also accept that the killing of these persons was illegal and I was aware that where the arrest would be carried out that the chances would be 50% or more than 50% that these persons would be armed and that they would resist arrest and I therefore knew that a skirmish would ensue whereby people could be killed or injured and I reconciled myself with that. After the incident I did not reveal the true facts and therefor I made myself guilty of defeating the ends of justice. I omitted, during the execution of this order and I acted on the behalf of the previous government, but in particular the National Party, whose interests I wanted to promote and protect. The actions and omissions to which I am guilty of, I did, I executed during the official execution of my duties and according to the instruction of a senior officer and which formed part of the opposition of the struggle and I therefore request the Committee to grant me amnesty with regard to these actions and omissions.
MR VISSER: Do you agree with everything that is contained in this document and aspects and things of which you are aware and do you request that the whole document be applicable to you?
MR NEL: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You did not find anything in there that is not applicable to you?
MR NEL: You have quoted the headings in Lesotho and Botswana. I was not present or involved with those incidents but I am familiar with the circumstances and I reconcile myself with that.
MR VISSER: That is the evidence in chief, Chairperson, thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Nel, Mr Gert Visser, who I represent, was under your command. Is that correct?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser was also mostly busy with investigations that you had done and also specifically this Voortrekkerhoogte incident that was referred to?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser was also known, also knew the facts that you had just given in evidence, especially this specific case surrounding Johannes Mnisi and George and Brown and also the commanders Siphiwe Nyanda and Rashid.
MR NEL: As he was known as MK he did have that information.
MR PRINSLOO: And Rashid and also Siphiwe Nyanda were highly trained people?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And if you are referred to bundle 5 that is where there is a reference made to Seshaba, 1981, where deeds are referred to from January 26th up to the incident at Voortrekkerhoogte. Then it is a reasonably big amount that the ANC accepted responsibility for, is that correct? Are you aware of it?
MR NEL: I am.
MR PRINSLOO: And on the staff that you served on, you also had insight on this and you made a study of it. Is that correct?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment. The plan that you referred to, it is also a document that Mr Visser studied, that was also discussed with you. The two of you discussed it together.
MR NEL: The plastic plan?
MR PRINSLOO: That is correct.
MR NEL: Myself and Visser drove on those routes with Mnisi in the vehicle and we determined that that plan was correct and that it agreed with the high tension wires as it had existed in reality.
MR PRINSLOO: ...(indistinct) and Mr Visser, also before they went into Swaziland, did you agree with this? And in this action he also served under your command with the approval of higher command which was discussed with him by you. Is that correct?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And he was at that time your subordinate, he was either a Senior Lieutenant or at the beginnings of being a Captain?
MR NEL: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt.
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe
MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, what was Mr Schoon's participation in this event?
MR NEL: He accompanied us due to his position at Head Office, otherwise he played no leading role that I can recall.
CHAIRPERSON: Who else from Head Office was present amongst the names that you have provided in Exhibit E?
MR NEL: Gen Wandrag, he was at the uniformed division of Head Office.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there anyone else?
MR NEL: Brig Schoon, I think he was then Col Schoon, who was a Security Head Office where he had an ANC desk position.
CHAIRPERSON: Are these the only people from the Head Office?
MR NEL: That is all. Gen Viktor was then Col Viktor and he was at Division Northern Transvaal and that is Pretoria Security Branch and that is where we worked at that time. The Security Branch at Pretoria consists of Head Office and then the Northern Transvaal Security Branch which is the Regional Branch of the Pretoria Region and that was situated in the ... (indistinct) Building where the Police Museum is situated.
TAPES ARE BLANK FOR 13 MINUTES
CHAIRPERSON: When did Mr Schoon become involved in this incident?
MR NEL: I'm not sure if he departed with us from Pretoria in one of the vehicles. I'm not sure, but he was with us at Oshoek.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are not sure whether he accompanied you from Pretoria but you definitely saw him at Oshoek?
MR NEL: He was there, I just don't know which vehicle he was going in. As far as I can remember, myself and Mnisi and Selepe drove in my vehicle. I don't know and I can't remember how the other people were picked up, but he was definitely at Oshoek.
CHAIRPERSON: And what did he do at Oshoek?
MR NEL: I knew that he represented Head Office but he did not give me any orders at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this the Security Police Head Office?
MR NEL: That is correct Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: He did not give you any orders?
MR NEL: He did not give me any orders, that is correct. It may be that he had talks with Gen Viktor higher up.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I don't have my note here, what was Mr Schoon's rank at that stage?
MR NEL: I think he was a full colonel at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: So was he the most senior person?
MR NEL: He had the same rank as Col Viktor at that stage
and if I recall correctly, Gen Wandrag was at that stage either a full colonel or a brigadier. But no-one had a uniform on, we were all in civilian clothes.
CHAIRPERSON: So who was in command?
MR NEL: The senior person there was Gen Wandrag.
CHAIRPERSON: The then Col Wandrag. So he was in command of all the police?
MR NEL: I would accept it like that yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So you cannot tell us what Mr Schoon did?
MR NEL: As far as I know, he represented Head Office and that is all.
CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot tell us how he represented them?
MR NEL: No I cannot. I cannot say exactly what his role was.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't see him doing anything?
MR NEL: No, I didn't see him do anything. He was definitely not at the shooting or at my planning where I spoke to Mnisi.
CHAIRPERSON: So it looked as if he was just standing around there?
MR NEL: Well, he mainly had knowledge of what was to happen and then he would convey that to Head Office.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you understood?
MR NEL: Yes, that is what I understood.
CHAIRPERSON: That he was there to see what happens and then he would report back?
MR NEL: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The other person that you refer to is MK Brown. Who is he?
MR NEL: That was the person that, one of the two people that was in the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: But who is he?
MR NEL: He is also and MK member who at that stage was in Swaziland.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know him?
MR NEL: His names was mentioned to my.
CHAIRPERSON: By whom?
MR NEL: By Mnisi.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Mnisi say this was MK Brown that was with George in the vehicle?
MR NEL: No, we made several telephone calls from Pretoria to Swaziland and Mnisi made these calls and he told us that in Swaziland he spoke to George and Brown, who works with George. So we knew both George and Brown and Rashid. At that stage we only knew Rashid as Rashid, we did not know his true identity.
CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know Brown was in the vehicle?
MR NEL: I only learned about it later in articles in news that I had received and I also saw now that his name appeared. I don't know if this came from the investigative officers.
CHAIRPERSON: So you do not have personal knowledge?
MR NEL: I never personally saw the people.
CHAIRPERSON: If we accept that there were two people killed, I accepted that two people were killed and I knew that I had received information somewhere of George and Brown but because I did not know their true identity, I can't say that it is them.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll just hear what your colleagues say.
Please tell me which Task Force is this that you were involved with, or what is it?
MR NEL: It is a special unit that was formed that could do special tasks and that also received special training to handle certain tasks.
CHAIRPERSON: Are these people from Head Office?
MR NEL: They would fall under Head Office and that is why they would fall under Gen Wandrag and also other commanders there.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this then a group of police officers?
MR NEL: Yes, it's police officers who had received special training to penetrate buildings and such like activities.
CHAIRPERSON: So they did not fall under the Security Police?
MR NEL: No.
CHAIRPERSON: They were available to the whole police force?
MR NEL: That is correct. If I recall correctly, they worked right through the country at that stage.
ADV DE JAGER: They were also at the Silverton incident?
MR NEL: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: Maybe we'll get it later directly, but what was their specific name?
MR NEL: They were the Special Task Force.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they known to you, the people involved here, this group that you refer to in paragraph 18?
MR NEL: I knew Capt Strydom at that time because he was involved at the Silverton bank incident.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other people, who are they?
MR NEL: This is Capt Strydom and the other people that were involved I did not know at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not know the other members of the Task Force apart from Strydom?
MR NEL: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: How many were they, the other members of the Task Force?
MR NEL: I would not be able to say. I didn't have anything to do with them personally.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not see them?
MR NEL: I saw them at a distance but I did not talk to them or anything apart from with Gen Wandrag and Strydom.
CHAIRPERSON: Just a couple of them, not just one?
MR NEL: I would estimate they were about 10.
CHAIRPERSON: And is this the group that shot the people in the vehicle?
MR NEL: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Strydom involved in this, in the shooting?
MR NEL: Strydom was there, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So he and his men shot?
MR NEL: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel. Are there any other questions?
ADV GCABASHE: Do you know anything at all about the circumstances surrounding Mnisi's arrest? You say here in paragraph 5, I think it is, or is it 4 - essentially the evidence is that Mnisi was arrested - point 8.
MR NEL: Yes, I know about that.
ADV GCABASHE: Is that part of your amnesty application, whatever might have occurred at that time?
MR NEL: Mnisi's arrest was quite legal. He was arrested about 1 kilometre from the Oshoek border post inside South Africa.
ADV GCABASHE: On the South African side. Is he still alive?
MR NEL: Yes, I saw him during his amnesty hearing in Pretoria, that was last year.
ADV GCABASHE: Then as you understand the brief to the Task Force they were either to try and abduct the two, bring them back into the country for questioning, or failing that to deal with them at that point in time?
MR NEL: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: And all you knew about the two at the time was what Mnisi had said to you about them?
MR NEL: Yes, at that stage I did not know who was to be in the car. We did make some deductions that it could be Rashid and/or Brown and/or George, or anyone else but that is, we did not know how many people there would be or exactly who would be there.
ADV GCABASHE: And what you wanted from them was further information on the planning, the sabotage they had planned, that Mnisi?
MR NEL: As investigating officer I would very much have liked to get more information with regards to deeds of terrorism that were done and those that were still to come.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any re-examination?
MR VISSER: No re-examination that you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
MR VISSER: The next witness will be Gen Viktor.
