Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We are about to start the proceedings. For the record, today is Wednesday, 23rd June 1999. We are continuing the sitting of the Amnesty Committee, at JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Presiding Panel is constituted as has been indicated earlier on the record. We will be hearing this morning the application of Xolani Mnguni, amnesty reference number AM 3551/96.

Ms van der Westhuizen, would you like to put yourself on record for the applicant.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My name is Anina van der Westhuizen, from the firm of attorneys, van der Westhuizen and Associates, and I will be appearing on behalf of the applicant, Mr Xolani Mguni.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen. Just for the record, Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My surname is Steenkamp, I'm the Evidence Leader for this matter. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Steenkamp. Ms van der Westhuizen, is there anything else you want to put on record before we hear the evidence of your client?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairman, I will just confirm that the application before you, for which the applicant is applying, is the assault and eventual killing of Mr William Apani, on the 29th of November 1991. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is on a train travelling between, where and where?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairman, my instructions are that the train was travelling between Soweto and the greater Johannesburg area, and that it happened in the Doornfontein Station, close to Doornfontein Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, we're then ready to proceed with the evidence of Mr Mnguni.

XOLANI MNGUNI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms van der Westhuizen?

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mnguni, do you remember that you completed a form in which you applied for amnesty for the killing of Mr Apani, on 29 November 1991, and I'm going to show it to you. I just want you to briefly have a look at it.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I remember.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You pointed out to me that there is one or two aspects contained in that form that you are not completely happy with, and I would refer you to the pages and read the relevant portions and ask you to indicate to this Committee, or clarify certain aspects. I'm going to refer you to page 3 thereof. That is where you're requested to state the nature and particulars of the offence that you're applying for amnesty for. And I will read the relevant portion. It states here

"We knew where the ANC supporters were, and went straight to that coach and attacked and killed Mr Apani."

You indicated that you just want to clarify something in this regard. Please do so.

MR MNGUNI: We did not go to the ANC coach, we were near to the ANC coach. We were near the coach, we did not go to the coach per se.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Then there's another aspect which you brought to my attention. It seems that part or a portion of the evidence, as led before the trial Court, you confirmed and that there is just, or you include in your application, and that there is a certain portion thereof which you are not happy with. I will refer you to the evidence of a certain Mr Ndlovu, who in short, testified that when the deceased, Mr Apani, was holding onto a certain rail or a railing in the train, that you are the person who opened his hands to loosen his grip as a result of which he fell down onto the railway track. Do you just - please proceed and clarify what you're not happy with, regarding this.

MR MNGUNI: I did not remove him, I was actually stabbing him with an umbrella. He let go and he fell outside the train.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Mnguni. I now want to request you to tell the Committee the background ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen, I'm going to ask you up front, won't you just time your leading of your evidence to allow the Panel just to take notes and to keep up with the testimony. Sometimes it's very difficult to do justice to the applicant's case if one is rushing through all these notes and trying to listen and to write down. We were just taking down his response to this evidence of Mr Ndlovu, so won't you just hold your question a short while, let us just complete that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I apologise, Mr Chairperson, I will go a bit slower.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You may proceed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mnguni, what was your - to which political party did you belong at this point in time, when this incident happened?

MR MNGUNI: I was a member of the IFP.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How long were you a member of the IFP, was it a long time, many years? Please describe that.

MR MNGUNI: I joined the IFP in 1978, at Nxotu. My father was a member of Inkatha, before Inkatha became of political party. I then joined Inkatha, not knowing anything about other people. I just knew about Umdwana, Chief Buthelezi, and the King. Those are the people whom I knew as my leaders.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you also join the IFP as a political party, not only the cultural organisation?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did you live at that stage?

MR MNGUNI: I reside in Mfulo North, in Soweto.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you were employed, I belief, somewhere in the Doornfontein area, what means of transport did you use on a daily basis, to proceed to work?

MR MNGUNI: I was employed at Camel Woodcraft, number 30 End Street, and I was using a train to commute to and from work. The number of the train is 9323.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Which train station would you normally board the train and where would you get off, if you're on your way to work?

MR MNGUNI: I used to board the train at eKwezi Station, at a quarter past six in the morning and I would get off at Doornfontein at five past or quarter past seven.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What was the political climate, as you perceived it to be, at that point in time within the IFP and ANC?

MR MNGUNI: It was very tough, very difficult, because I think violence started in 1990, between the IFP and the ANC. We would wake up, go to work not knowing whether we would come back home or not.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the IFP structures in the area where you resided, can you briefly enlighten us as to who were your leaders in that specific area and in what capacity did they act?

MR MNGUNI: We had Mr Nkabinde as our chairman, for the Mfulo branch and he was assisted by Mr Mzinjane.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what is the name of that branch?

MR MNGUNI: Mfulo branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Mfulo?

MR MNGUNI: Mfulo North branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Of Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of this branch?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know what Mr Nkabinde's first name is?

MR MNGUNI: I did not know that. I did not know the name because we did not address each other in names, or first names.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he possibly Madoda Amos Nkabinde?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: And who did you say assisted Mr Nkabinde?

MR MNGUNI: Mr Mzinjane.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Apart from these people that you mentioned, was there also a youth section or a youth brigade in that area?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I was the leader of the IFP Youth Brigade.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were there also other youth leaders in that area, that you'd like to mention?

MR MNGUNI: No, none.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become the leader of, I assume, Mfulo North branch of the IFP Youth Brigade?

MR MNGUNI: I started in 1991, at the launching of the branch, even though I cannot remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the launch of the Youth Brigade branch, or which branch is it that was launched in 1991?

MR MNGUNI: The IFP, in general.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you about 27 years of age, or thereabouts at that time?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I was 27 years old, because I was born in 1964.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume you were employed at this place that you had indicated earlier in your evidence, at that time?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Mnguni, just on this aspect of the Youth Brigade, something that I want you to clarify is, although the term is used "Youth Brigade" am I correct if I state if wasn't only very young people who were part of this Youth Brigade? Can you please explain how it worked.

MR MNGUNI: I would say, members of the Youth Brigade had ages ranging from 35 and downwards.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who is Mr Radebe, the person whom you also refer to as an IFP leader?

MR MNGUNI: He used to stay at Mirafe hostel.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you know his first name?

MR MNGUNI: No. As I have indicated earlier on, we did not address one another by first names, especially in the trains.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now this Mr Radebe, did he travel with you on the train that you took, how did you know him?

MR MNGUNI: We used to travel in the same train from work in the evening. That was on a daily basis.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At that point in time, what was the situation on the trains, was there fighting going on? What was the position. Will you please give the Honourable Committee as much information as you can regarding this.

MR MNGUNI: It was very tough in the trains at the time, people were dying. We would come across dead bodies at some of the stations. It was very difficult.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were people being pushed of trains?

MR MNGUNI: There were gunshots and people would jump out of the train windows as the train was moving.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And what, according to you, was the cause of this conflict?

MR MNGUNI: The cause was that both the ANC and the IFP had policies, which I think were the cause of the conflict because the IFP did not have stay-aways, we were always at work and the ANC would accuse the IFP of trafficking with the boers. That's the reason why were being beaten up, because of our association with the boers.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you know if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, can we just write. Perhaps you can just keep an eye on us. Yes?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Mnguni, now how did it - you yourself, do you know any of your IFP brothers or comrades that were killed on the trains and can you please tell us about that.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, there are several of them, even though I do not know their names. The one that I know very well is Buthelezi, who used to reside at Dube hostel. He died during the train violence.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the trains that were used, or the coaches that you would use going to work, was that divided into specific political groupings, would you use a specific coach?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, the coach in which I used to travel was the second coach from the engine and that's where you'd find the IFP members. And there was this other coach - the first coach used to be occupied by the ANC comrades, and there was another coach in which church services were held. That was the sequence of the coaches.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did the train only consist of three coaches or what?

MR MNGUNI: No, there were other coaches, there could have been 12 of them in addition to the three, or maybe in all.

CHAIRPERSON: And these other coaches, who occupied them? - if you know.

MR MNGUNI: Ordinary people, people who were going to work and people who wanted to attend the church services would respond to a bell that was rung to go to that coach. And in our coach we used to chant IFP slogans and songs were sung and the ANC would do the same in their coach.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you just explain this situation about the church service. I think you said this was held in the third coach from the front, would that be correct?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then who conducted these church services?

MR MNGUNI: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this just the situation in the mornings, when you were on your way to work, that the train was sort of divided into all these sections?

MR MNGUNI: Not only in the morning, because in the evening I used to catch another train, the number of which is 9448. In that train as well you'd have the ANC toyi-toyiing and you'd have the church service, as well as the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Also in the specific coaches?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, each group would occupy a specific coach.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you always travelled in the IFP coach?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, always, because I was afraid of travelling alone, so I had to travel in the IFP coach.

CHAIRPERSON: So you've never really gone to see what was going on in any of the other coaches?

MR MNGUNI: I cannot say what was going on inside these other coaches, except for the slogans and the songs.

CHAIRPERSON: So apart from what you heard going on there, you had no other knowledge of the specific situation in those other coaches?

MR MNGUNI: No, I don't have any other knowledge of what was going on, except for the singing and the slogans.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MNGUNI: Now Mr Mnguni, you yourself, what were your feelings towards ANC people at that point in time?

MR MNGUNI: I hated them so much because things they were saying about the IFP and its leaders, and things that they were saying about our Prince Mangosotho Buthelezi, who was accused of selling out.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now on the day before this incident, this killing of Mr Apani, happened, that evening when you proceeded home, there was a meeting in one of the coaches. Please tell the Honourable Committee what it was about and who was speaking there and what was said.

MR MNGUNI: It was on a Thursday, on the 28th, in the evening. It could have been past five. I boarded a train at Doornfontein Station, train 9448 and I occupied the coach that was occupied by the IFP members.

There was an announcement that come from Mr Radebe, an announcement to the effect that we are being destroyed and annihilated by the ANC, and if you come across, should you happen to come across ANC people, kill them, and he said as of the following day we should start doing exactly that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The following day, on the day when this incident happened, you left from the station where you normally boarded the train. Please continue to tell this Committee what happened on that day.

MR MNGUNI: On the 29th of November 1991, I woke up and went to the station, eKwezi Station as usual, to board a train and I boarded the train and went to the IFP coach. There are several IFP members who board the train at several stations, including Intlazane, Mirafe etc.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can you just go back a bit? On the 29th of November, in the morning or in the afternoon you boarded the train and you went to the IFP coach, was it morning or afternoon?

MR MNGUNI: It was in the morning.

ADV GCABASHE: And where did you board?

MR MNGUNI: At eKwezi Station, it was at quarter past six, as usual.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, so go on from there. You boarded at eKwezi at quarter past six, then?

MR MNGUNI: We were singing IFP songs and the train proceeded towards town and it would stop at several stations, such as Dube, Pefene, Pumlong and Mzimhlope and from Mzimhlope it would stop again at Langlaagte Station.

The stations that I have just enumerated, are stations where we would have Inkatha members coming to join us in our coach and when we got to Langlaagte, men and women from Inkatha, as well as young women, some of them would get off at Langlaagte and the train would proceed to stop at Mayfair Station, where similarly other IFP members would alight.

The train would then proceed to Braamfontein, where the same thing happened, people alighting. And as these people were alighting we continued singing the songs, IFP songs and the train would get to Park Station, where members of the IFP, as well - members of the IFP would get off. A large number of this group actually used to get off at Park Station and the train would proceed.

The train would proceed to other stations and I used to get off at Doornfontein Station. I would say from Park Station, I would say myself, as well as Gap Lamula were standing next to the ANC coach and we heard very teasing words coming from the ANC's side.

There was this ANC man standing next to the door and he kept directing provocative remarks towards the IFP in the other coach. And because Gap was standing next to their door, he held one of these guys and on holding him - they were now between the coaches, and Gap went to the other side of the coach, that is their coach and I was on our side of the coach.

ADV GCABASHE: Gap walked through the ANC coach to the far end, while you stayed at the side that was nearer the IFP coach, is this what you're saying?

MR MNGUNI: It was where the coaches meet. It was actually between the two coaches, because the person who was provoking us from the ANC coach, was standing at the door of the ANC coach and Gap was standing at the passage.

ADV GCABASHE: Just again, you've lost me. Which door was he standing at? Just describe the coach to us, maybe that will help. Because there's the door you used to get off the train, there's also the door you use to go from one coach to the next coach. Now are you saying that the two of you stood at the border, between the IFP coach and the ANC, and the man who you then got hold of was inside the ANC coach, or what are you saying? Just clarify that.

MR MNGUNI: There are doors that separate the coaches in-between. Gap was standing at the passage and I was standing next to the door of the IFP coach, and the one who was standing in the ANC coach was standing at the door of the ANC coach.

CHAIRPERSON: But what passage are you talking about, where Gap was apparently standing?

MR MNGUNI: May the question please be repeated.

CHAIRPERSON: What passage are you referring to where you say that Gap was standing?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, I have an interference here. The reception is not as it is supposed to be. I think we have some short supply.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, where are the technical people, where are the sound engineers? Won't you just assist the interpreters, they're having a problem.

INTERPRETER: May the Chairperson please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mnguni, we're just trying to understand what you are explaining to us. It's important for us to follow what you are saying. We unfortunately don't have firsthand knowledge of the situation that you're trying to describe to us now. You are trying to explain to us what the positions were of yourself, of Gap and of the person who was taunting you from the ANC coach, alright? Now in describing this to us you said that Gap was in the passage, now can you just explain to us exactly where this passage is.

MR MNGUNI: I am talking about the passage that separates the coach. We usually call them joints. That is where the coaches join.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that Gap was standing in this section between the IFP coach and the ANC coach?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And yourself?

MR MNGUNI: I was standing inside the IFP coach, next to the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the door that leads to the passage where Gap was standing?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person that was taunting you, where was that person standing?

MR MNGUNI: He too was standing at the door, but on the side of the ANC coach.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were these doors open or what?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that at one stage Gap got hold of somebody, is that right?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he got hold of this man who was insulting us in Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is the man who was standing at the door to the passage in the ANC coach? The door in the ANC coach that leads to the passage, would that be right?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, at the door on the side of the ANC.

DR TSOTSI: Just a question I want to put. Were the doors of the ANC coach and of the IFP coach on the same side of the train, or on the opposite side?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, the doors were actually facing each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now take it slowly and tell us now what happened from that point onwards. Gap got hold of this man, what then happened?

MR MNGUNI: Gap held this person and blocked the way so that he could not go back to the ANC coach. We beat him up and he ran to the IFP coach. Maybe he was thinking he would get help. That is the coach where he would later die. We ran after him.

I was carrying an umbrella and I started stabbing him with the umbrella and Gap beat him up with a knopkierrie.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now this man whom you attacked, can you describe him to us, was it an adult person, was it a young person?

MR MNGUNI: He was still young.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he about your age, or younger?

MR MNGUNI: He could have been 26 or 27.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this person armed?

MR MNGUNI: ...(end of Side A of tape - no audible reply)

CHAIRPERSON: No you said that this person ran into the IFP coach and you continued attacking him there with the umbrella and the knopkierrie. Can you just tell us exactly how that then proceeded.

MR MNGUNI: He was running away and I was poking him with this umbrella and he ran into the coach where the church service was being held. He looked for the door and held onto the door of that coach, at which time I was busy stabbing him with the umbrella. By this time the door had already opened and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, just take it easy, just wait. Can you just repeat, you say that this person was now in the coach where the church service was being held and he was holding onto the door and you reached him at the door. Now take it from there.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he was holding onto an iron rail at the door and his feet were hanging outside the train. I ...(inaudible)

PROBLEMS WITH THE SOUND EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Interpreter, we can't hear you properly.

INTERPRETER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we still can't hear you properly. Perhaps the technician can assist us. The translation is barely audible on the headset, and I've virtually opened up the entire volume. Mr Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: ...(inaudible)

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS DUE TO SOUND PROBLEM

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for the assistance, to the technical people, it looks like we're back on line, I think they say.

Mr Mnguni, I remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand?

XOLANI MNGUNI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Now just before we continue, can you just assist us a bit more, just to make sure that we have the complete picture that you are conveying to us. Firstly, in regard to the sequence of these coaches, can you just explain to us again, from the front of the train, which was the first coach?

MR MNGUNI: The ANC coach was the first coach and the IFP was the second coach and the third coach was for the church. The third coach was for the church.

CHAIRPERSON: Now after Gap had taken hold of this person, in which direction did the person run or move? Just explain that in relation to these coaches, from where to where?

MR MNGUNI: The person was standing at the door of the ANC coach, Gap blocked his way so that he could not go back to the ANC coach and then this person started running towards the IFP coach. We pursued him into the coach. I was stabbing him with an umbrella and Gap was hitting him with a knopkierrie. We pursued him right up to the third coach.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you just explain this in a bit more detail, how did it happen that Gap was blocking this person's entry into the ANC coach?

MR MNGUNI: He took hold of him and they wrestled a little bit and Gap turned around and blocked the way to the ANC coach, and this man started running towards the IFP coach.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now before we adjourned you were explaining to us what was happening to the door in, let's call it the church coach, the coach where the church was being held.

MR MNGUNI: The deceased held onto an iron rail and it was during this time that I continued stabbing him with the umbrella and his legs were hanging outside the train. I continued stabbing him with the umbrella, such that he let go of the iron rail and he fell outside the train.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this door that you are talking about, is that the door that one uses to get into the coach from the outside?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, if you wait for the train on the station and you want to get into the train, you use this door that you're talking about now, where this man was?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he was hanging on that door.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this door normally closed or open when the train is moving?

MR MNGUNI: There are people who usually open the door so that we could get air and sometimes the door is closed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it an electrified train this? Were they automatic doors?

MR MNGUNI: Not anymore, it's an electricity propelled train yes, but then the doors are apparently no longer operated by electricity.

CHAIRPERSON: So in the normal course of events, those doors, or that door, should be closed when the train is moving, but it was open during this incident?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, the door was open as this was happening and there were people who were standing next to the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Who kept the door open?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now these are people, one assumes, who were participating in the church service?

MR MNGUNI: They were not necessarily participants in the church, but they were part of the people in that coach. They were just boys standing there at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you were saying that this, the deceased was holding onto a metal rail, if I understand you correctly, at the door.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct, he held onto a door or an iron rail that's in the middle of the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that rail run from the floor to the roof of the coach?

MR MNGUNI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you attack the deceased and you caused him to fall out of the moving train?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, because I continued stabbing him with this umbrella, so that he fell out as the train was moving.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now continue from there, tell us what else happened.

MR MNGUNI: After that the train came to Doornfontein Station. I alighted and I ran, I did not walk as I usually do and I came to stand to a shop next to the factories where I was working and I did not stop to see what was happening behind me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and then what happened?

MR MNGUNI: I continued working. We used to start work at half past seven and we used to knock off at half past three on Fridays. After work I went to a shop for some shopping, I also went to Jazz Supermarket and I was trying to while away time, waiting for the five, if not five past, or past five train, which train we would catch with other IFP members.

Indeed I went to the station, waited for the train and the train numbered 9448, township bound, came. When I came to the coach I found people like Radebe and other IFP men, people such at Gap Lamula was also there, because he too was travelling in the same train. He used to catch the train at Ellis Park Station, before I would catch it at Doornfontein Station.

I then learnt from my fellow people that we have killed one ANC dog. I then said, or should I say I got a fright. I was no longer comfortable travelling on a train. And Radebe wanted to know what I was going to do, because we IFP people were also being attacked at the taxis. I then decided that if I am to die, I should die in the train, I'm going to continue using the train. And I continued using the train.

I woke up on Monday, went to eKwezi Station as usual and I boarded the train, the same train and went to the IFP coach. Songs were sung as usual. I lighted at Doornfontein Station, as usual and I went to work as usual. I worked the whole day on that Monday, and in the evening went back to Doornfontein Station to board 9448, which used to come at half past five. I went to the same coach of the IFP, until I went to eKwezi Station, and went home.

On Tuesday, on the 3rd of December, I caught a train at eKwezi Station, the same train in the morning, train number 9223, the same train that I usually travelled in, went to the same IFP coach. When I was getting off at Doornfontein Station, I was actually in the company of two girls of the Radebe family, firearms were pointed at me and there were seven people pointing firearms at me and they did not identify themselves as police. I concluded that this must be the Umkhonto weSizwe, about whom so much is being said.

And one man came running and he said "that man is dangerous, have you searched him, because he carries bombs". He was actually referring to me. I was thrown to the ground, they searched me and they did not find any explosives on my person. The two women had already fled. I only learnt, when I was taken to a car, that these people are police and I was made to wait with two police in this vehicle. It was a Monza.

Other police left and they went back towards the rail, towards the station. They came back with another man, who was carrying an umbrella similar to mine. This male resided at Sinawane. And they were beating him along the way because he was resisting, because he was refusing to do as he was ordered. They carried him into a boot of another vehicle, in which they were travelling. We then drove off.

We went to, I think they said it was a CID or offices of the CID. I think it was a police station of the CIDs, or something to that effect. We went towards this place around City Deep. I was taken to their office and this one man who was taken into a boot was made to sign certain documents, after which he was released.

I also thought maybe the same thing was going to apply to me. Instead I was beaten up and they kept on asking me questions, saying I am an Inkatha, and I refused, and they said I am a member of the ANC, and I refused. They also said I am mercenary bought from Natal, to come and kill people in Johannesburg.

And I started fearing for my life because some of these police were drunk and I feared that if I identified myself as a member of Inkatha, I would run the risk of being killed. They would beat me up and take a break, take me to another office. In that office there were boers who wearing white shirts and navy trousers. Yes, these people were sitting around a table, there were many of them.

These police said to these other boers "this is the person", and these boers said "is this the person who is killing people in the trains?" And they responded with a "yes". A still camera was brought to take pictures of me, but I learnt that the camera did not have, I think it was fuses or something, and the pictures of me were ultimately not taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mnguni. Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I will continue to ask the applicant certain questions related to this incident.

Mr Mnguni, in your evidence you just said that after this incident happened in the morning, in the afternoon you also boarded a train where Mr Radebe was on the train and you were informed that the person died, or an ANC dog died that morning. Did you inform Mr Radebe then that you were one of the people who killed this ANC dog?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At that stage, how did you feel after having killed this person?

MR MNGUNI: A person's blood speaks you know. I got a fright. I indicated to Radebe that I am thinking of leaving the train and use taxis and what Radebe said was that "do not fear, because if you go to the taxis you're also going to be killed there because they're also killing IFP members in the taxis".

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The umbrella that you used on that day, as you described, having poked the deceased with, that

point of the umbrella, was that specifically sharpened or was it a standard umbrella?

MR MNGUNI: It was an ordinary umbrella. It was an umbrella with the Morocco Swallows Football Club colours and emblem.

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (cont)

Did it have a type of a stainless steel, or a metal point at the one end?

MR MNGUNI: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now at the stage where you were in the, let's call it the church coach, where you were stabbing or poking the deceased with this umbrella, what was Gap doing at that point in time?

MR MNGUNI: I am not in the position to say, because I was extremely furious at the time. I could not tell whether he was behind me or not.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In that coach with the church, where you finally caught up with the deceased, did you see Gap also hitting the deceased with his knopkierrie?

MR MNGUNI: I indicated that I was no longer in the position to see whether Gap was present, because I was extremely angry at the time.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now just to clarify another issue, this incident, am I right if I put it to you that this happened as you were approaching the station and the train slowed down?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, the train slowed down towards the station.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: But was it still moving at the point in time when you poked at the deceased and he lost his grip?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, the train was still in motion.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Apart from this attack in which admitted that you attacked the ANC, or Mr Apani, who died, did you before that day take part in any other attack on ANC members?

MR MNGUNI: No, that was the first incident in which I was involved.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Since your arrest, have you ever seen or heard anything about Mr Radebe?

MR MNGUNI: No.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now in your mind, why do you say that this act that you committed had anything to do with politics?

MR MNGUNI: I am saying this was politically motivated because there was this animosity between the IFP and the ANC at the time. The ANC people were launching attacks on trains, many of my fellow brothers died in trains. We were making donations and contributions on a daily basis, sending corpses of our fellow members back home for burial.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now today, looking back at this incident that took place, how do you feel about this incident that happened?

MR MNGUNI: I'm filled with sadness about what happened. I also feel sorry for the relatives of the deceased. I don't even have the guts to look them in the eye, because they depended on him. It hurts. I am very sorry. My apology to those who lost their loved one.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Adv Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mnguni, did you hear Mr Apani insulting the IFP?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I heard him.

ADV GCABASHE: Was he standing alone at that particular point in the doorway?

MR MNGUNI: As they were in the coach, he was next to the door. He was actually facing our coach and he was uttering something in Sotho.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but that's exactly what I'm getting to. What was he saying in Sotho?

MR MNGUNI: He was swearing or insulting. He was saying like - I do understand Sotho, but I cannot speak Sotho, but he was saying something in Sotho.

ADV GCABASHE: Ja, but tell us in Zulu what you understood him to be saying.

MR MNGUNI: He was saying that Gadja was selling out the blood of people, or selling the people out.

ADV GCABASHE: That's one statement that he made, what else did he say? What else did you hear him say?

MR MNGUNI: That was the only thing that I heard.

ADV GCABASHE: For how long did he go on making this statement before Gap grabbed him?

MR MNGUNI: It was not a long time. I think it was just a short while. The distance from Park Station to Doornfontein Station, it's about five minutes. That is a short time.

ADV GCABASHE: And in all that time he was saying things, and what you heard him say was that your leader, Gadja Buthelezi was selling out?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is the only thing that I heard.

ADV GCABASHE: And you only heard this once?

MR MNGUNI: I can say that ...(indistinct) was their slogan.

ADV GCABASHE: What did you hear, did you hear him say that once, ten times, three times? Just try and recall.

MR MNGUNI: He was saying it continuously. He was repeating that statement.

ADV GCABASHE: Now tell me, did that mean that that particular person was an ANC member, the fact that he was making that statement?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that's what it meant, because he was in the ANC coach, chanting toyi-toyi songs.

ADV GCABASHE: But isn't it correct that what used to happen is, anybody could get into any coach, yes?

MR MNGUNI: No, that was not the case.

ADV GCABASHE: You see I say that because you've got Mr Trevor Jabulani Ndovu, the man who blew the whistle on you, hew as not an IFP member, but he states that sometimes he would travel in your coach, only because he thought he might be safer there.

MR MNGUNI: You mean he would get into the IFP coach? Is that what you are saying?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, there were occasions that he would get into your coach because he felt he was safer there, but he was not an IFP supporter. However, on this particular occasion your coach was full so he sat in the church coach.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, the IFP coach was always full, chanting the IFP songs. That is possible, that Mr Ndlovu got into the coach. Perhaps we did not take any notice of him, we just took him as an IFP member. As he says that he used to get into that coach, perhaps we regarded him as one of us.

ADV GCABASHE: Exactly. Now my point about Mr Apani, the deceased, is that the fact that he was in an ANC coach, speaking Sesotho, doesn't mean that he was an ANC member or supporter, in the same way that Ndlovu could not be not called an IFP supporter because he sometimes took a ride in your coach.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, Mr Ndlovu says he was sitting down and that means that he knew nothing about the IFP, and the deceased was chanting toyi-toyi songs.

ADV GCABASHE: Was the deceased chanting toyi-toyiing songs?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Was this in addition to saying that your leader had sold out black people?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that was among other things that they were singing about.

ADV GCABASHE: You've lost me just a little here, please help me, Mr Mnguni. I understood you to say that what infuriated you was the fact that this individual, the deceased, had called your leader, or had insulted your leader. Now you say he was singing songs as well. Are you saying the song he was singing was this one about Gadja Buthelezi selling out, and this is what infuriated you? Just help me there.

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that was the song that infuriated us.

ADV GCABASHE: The whole coach was singing it, the ANC coach?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, they were singing that song.

ADV GCABASHE: Everybody in that coach?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And Gap just grabbed the nearest one of those people who were singing this song, is that what you are saying?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he grabbed the nearest, the one who was actually facing us and provoking.

ADV GCABASHE: And his ANC comrades made no attempt to come through and assist him? Because after all he was in the passage when he was wrestling with Gap.

MR MNGUNI: No, they did not come to assist him.

ADV GCABASHE: And on your side of things, Mr Radebe and all these other people you were riding with did nothing to add to the blows that you were raining on this particular man? They just sat there and watched you?

MR MNGUNI: When this gentleman came we pursued him and no-one did anything thereafter.

ADV GCABASHE: And again, in the church coach nobody tried to stop you?

MR MNGUNI: The people who were in that church service, they ran towards one corner as they saw us chasing this person.

ADV GCABASHE: But are you still sure today that this particular person was one of your political opponents? Can you say to me today that you sure he was a political opponent?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I am certain about that, that the person that we killed was an ANC member.

DR TSOTSI: ...(indistinct) questions. Did the police ask you if you knew about the death of the deceased?

MR MNGUNI: You mean the police? They came and they asked me where my friend was, the one that was with me while we were killing someone, on a Friday.

DR TSOTSI: So you say they knew that you were involved in the killing of the deceased?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, it looked like they were told.

DR TSOTSI: Were you arrested and charged for this offence?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I was arrested and I was convicted. I was given a death sentence.

DR TSOTSI: Yes, and then what happened?

MR MNGUNI: I was given a death sentence on a murder charge of William Apani. I was taken to Pretoria Maximum Prison. That is a place called "death row". When I arrived there most of the prisoners who were there on death row, when I came they said "here is Gadja's person". They said Gadja is going to fight for you, you will be released.

When I arrived there on that death row, the situation was not a good one. Even some of the police disliked me, saying that I was killing the people in the trains. There's something called gangsterism there in prison. Because of the situation I took a certain decision because I realised that there was no IFP member inside the prison. I associated myself with the "big five" so as to get some protection against these people and I felt that I had brothers in prison.

I stayed there with them as brothers, without problems, though there were other prisoners who were saying "here is the IFP member who was a prisoner". In 1994, we tried to get together with the Conservative Party and AWB members, PAC members and ANC members, trying to reach some peace agreement inside the prison, on the death row.

Myself as the IFP member who was on death row, I tried to get the IFP leaders, Mr Mosamyeni and Mrs Mzizi. Unfortunately on that day of the meeting they did not arrive in the peace meeting, so ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Can I interrupt you with another question. Gap Lamula, what happened to him, do you know?

MR MNGUNI: No, I have no clue of what happened to him.

ADV GCABASHE: He has not contacted you since the date of your arrest?

MR MNGUNI: No contact, I never saw him again.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mnguni, why exactly did you attack this person, the deceased?

MR MNGUNI: There were many IFP members who were dying in the trains and we realised that those were - the people who were attacking us were the ANC members, because I can mention Buthelezi, who was residing at Dube, who also died there in the train. He was an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you say that many IFP members died in a train, but why did you attack this particular person?

MR MNGUNI: Our intention was to show them that we were not cowards, we can also fight back.

CHAIRPERSON: So you wanted to show the ANC that you can also fight back?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you acting on any orders or on the authority of anybody at that time?

MR MNGUNI: It was an instruction that was issued by Radebe. Radebe was an IFP member at Morafe hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were you living at the time?

MR MNGUNI: I was staying in the township. They only knew - they knew that the IFP members were only in the hostels, they did not know that there were some members in the townships.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this Mr Radebe, was he just an ordinary member of the IFP, or what was his position?

MR MNGUNI: He was an IFP member, he was in the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of the Youth Brigade, like yourself?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he was a member of the Youth Brigade, just like myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he held any positions in the Youth Brigade?

MR MNGUNI: He was a leader, he was leader of IFP Youth at Morafe hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: So he held the same position as yourself?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't higher than you were?

MR MNGUNI: No, we were at the same level.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did Mr Radebe, did he have any authority to give you instructions?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he had some authority and as he had told me I was also feeling the same, that enough was enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did he have authority to give you instructions if you were on the same level?

MR MNGUNI: Everyone was so fed-up because we were donating to try and get the dead bodies to KwaZulu Natal every time.

CHAIRPERSON: An instruction that was given by Mr Radebe, was it just a plan, an idea that was raised by him and which was agreed to by the rest of you, including yourself?

MR MNGUNI: It was a direct instruction that he issued in the coach. He told us that as from tomorrow something should happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now that brings me back to the earlier question. What authority did he have to give you instructions, seeing that you were on the same level?

MR MNGUNI: He did not mention any person's name, or Xolani's name of Gap's name, but I just told myself that he had hit the nail on the head when he uttered those words. He did not mention any person's name. He did not instruct anyone directly.

CHAIRPERSON: So he didn't give a direct instruction to you, it was something that he said in general in the coach?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be correct to say that given the fact that the two of you were on the same level, he didn't have any authority to give you instructions?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, we had to discuss instead of him giving me a direct instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Nkabinde, was he the chairperson of the Mfulo North branch of IFP?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you also belong to that branch?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now he - Mr Nkabinde gave an affidavit which is before us and I want to just refer to one aspect of that affidavit for your comment. He said that he knows you and that the two of you attended some IFP rallies together, would that be correct?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he is telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he says that during these rallies the talk was about peace and amnesty and not to kill people, would that be correct?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, he is telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: And then he says that there was no instruction given to IFP members to kill people, he says the IFP members used to defend themselves. Would you want to comment on that?

MR MNGUNI: No, that is true. All what he is saying is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mnguni. Are there any other questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: None, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Just one last question, on page 55 of the Court judgment, Mr Mnguni, the Court says that the evidence that was led in Court, and I assume that this is evidence led by Mr Mzobo, who observed the assault, was that you chased the deceased into the church coach, the deceased - on line 9

"The deceased held onto the guard-rail of the door while he was still being beaten. The deceased hung onto this guard-rail with the body hanging outside. The accused (that's you) loosened the deceased's handgrip on the guard-rail and together the two attackers pushed the deceased under the train ..."

etc., etc. Are you saying that the judge heard the wrong things here?

MR MNGUNI: Ndlovu told the truth. What I am against is the fact that we removed the his hands from that rail, that is what I am disputing.

ADV GCABASHE: Ja, but you see that is a point of dispute, because it says here

"The accused loosened the deceased's handgrip on the guard-rails and together (the two of you, you and Gap) pushed the deceased under the train."

You are saying that that is true, but you didn't loosen the handgrip, you just pushed him under the train?

MR MNGUNI: Yes. I kept on pushing him with this umbrella, stabbing him with this umbrella because I wanted him to loosen up, to stop holding onto this rail.

ADV GCABASHE: And the deceased kept asking you why you wanted to kill him and you gave him no answer, is that correct?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, we did not respond to that.

ADV GCABASHE: Why didn't you tell him the reason you were attacking him?

MR MNGUNI: It is because we were so angry. We did not want to hear anything on that particular day, at that particular time.

ADV GCABASHE: And as a final question, why didn't you then attack ANC people wherever you saw them if your attitude was I have an instruction, I agree with this instruction, I'm going to attack ANC people wherever I see them. Why didn't you continue doing that after this incident?

MR MNGUNI: After this incident I went to work because we had already killed this Apani.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but this was just one of many people. There was a whole coach load of ANC people on Monday morning when you boarded the train, so why didn't you and Gap go back and maybe Radebe as well and whoever else you could collect, and go and attack those people in the ANC coach on Monday morning?

MR MNGUNI: The train was about to stop at Doornfontein and I was in a hurry because I was going to work and I alighted from the train, rushing to work. I don't know what happened to Gap.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were married to this instruction, you believed in this instruction. This is what you told us, that when you heard Radebe say these people must be dealt with, you felt that this man is right. You had ample opportunity to continue with killing ANC people, but you didn't, so why pick on Mr Apani when there was a whole coach load of ANC people who kept singing the same songs about your leader and about your organisation? I'm just looking for a consistent pattern of behaviour here, to assist me, Mr Mnguni.

MR MNGUNI: It means that we only had a chance to get that person because he is the one who was next to the door chanting toyi-toyi songs. That was the only opportunity we had. And when the train came to the station I ran away because that was my very first time to do a thing like that and I was afraid.

ADV GCABASHE: Thanks. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just - in regard to the issue that Adv Gcabashe has raised, why was it that you thought that perhaps you should stop using the train and start using the taxi?

MR MNGUNI: It was very difficult for us in the taxis because there conflict. I was scared of taking a taxi, because in a taxi I would be found alone. At least in a train it's quite a large number of us in one coach.

CHAIRPERSON: But did I understand your evidence correctly, after having attacked the deceased and before speaking to Mr Radebe again, after the attack, did you feel that you wanted to stop using the train?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I had that feeling in my heart because I was scared to take the train. Again, I was afraid of the police, they would come and take me in the train. I told myself that let me rather carry on because I was going on holiday on the 6th, therefore I was left with only three days at work.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel that you had done something wrong, or what?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, I had some guilty conscience and some regrets because a person's blood speaks. A person is God's image. I had some regrets because even the bible, I used to read the bible and I was regretting and I was asking myself why did I do it, but it was already done.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not feel that you were justified in attacking the deceased?

MR MNGUNI: When I was still in action I was not regretting, but after this was done and even when I was at work I was regretting, because where I was working the people were so religious and when they speak about a person and the origin of a human being I had some regret because that was a God's creation that I killed and I felt that I have committed a very big sin.

CHAIRPERSON: But in spite of the feeling that you had committed a sin, did you feel that you were justified in attacking the deceased?

MR MNGUNI: It's something that was not supposed to be done, but because of the situation or conditions prevailing at the time, it was justified.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination, Ms van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, just a few questions for clarification's sake.

Mr Mnguni, this Mr Apani that you attacked on that day, would you have attacked for instance, somebody who was standing in the church coach on that day?

MR MNGUNI: No, we wouldn't attack a person in the church coach because he was spreading the gospel or preaching at that particular moment.

MS VAN DER WALT: In your mind, having observed Mr Apani in the door of the ANC coach, did you believe that he was an ANC member and/or supporter?

MR MNGUNI: I believe that he was an ANC supporter.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the singing and the chanting, did that contribute towards your belief?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, even the songs that they were chanting, those confirmed my belief.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do I understand your evidence correctly, that at that point in time whilst you were still pursuing this man and poking him with your umbrella, at that stage you still felt that it was justified to do what you've been doing at that point in time?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, it was because of anger at the time, because of anger.

MS VAN DER WALT: And later you came to your senses, you say a man's blood talks, you then regretted what happened despite your political beliefs, is that correct?

MR MNGUNI: Yes. At work the people used to pray in the morning, that is when I realised what I have done and it came to me that a person is God's image and the blood of the person speaks. And even today I am still regretting.

MS VAN DER WALT: And after you poked this man with your umbrella and he got killed, you did not think about killing anyone else, whether it's ANC or any person.

MR MNGUNI: I did not think of killing anyone.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now this coach where IFP people got into every night, was there a sort of an authority in that coach, was there maybe a specific person who was regarded as in charge of that coach?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, there was a person who was a leader, who was conducting the people who were singing.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was that person?

MR MNGUNI: It was Radebe.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just to get a clear picture in my own mind, was he the person who would call out certain things and then the rest of the people would join in and sing or chant?

MR MNGUNI: Yes, whenever he would start a song we would follow.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen.

Just one other aspect, Mr Mnguni, that has come to my attention. According to the information that has been furnished to us, the deceased, Mr Apani, was 45 years of age at the time of his death. What is your comment on that?

MR MNGUNI: He didn't look 45 years, he looked younger than that, 26 or 27 years. He was more-or-less my age at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, may I request at this stage that we adjourn for the lunch break, to enable me to just clarify with the applicant whether there are any people present that he would like me to call as a witness. If you don't mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take the luncheon adjournment and reconvene at 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen, have we completed the testimony of the applicant?

MS VAN DER WALT: I believe so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you needed to look into the question of possibly placing further evidence before the Panel.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I would like to place on record that after consultation with the applicant, as well as some of his family members, it appears that there might be some witnesses available, who might be able to assist this Committee in coming to a decision. They are however not present here at the venue where we are today.

The members of the family and friends actually undertook to try and locate those witnesses and if they're available, bring them tomorrow morning. So if it - at this stage I would request that the matter stand down till tomorrow morning, just to ascertain what the position is regarding these witnesses. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Adv Steenkamp, have you got anything to say about the request?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm actually not in the position to say anything about witnesses. I discussed it with my learned colleague during the break and I was just informed that there is a possibility that a second witness will be called. From my own side, Mr Chairman, I don't have anything else except which I have put in the bundles. What I can say is, I will also undertake to see if I can maybe trace at least Mr Apani or family members of the later Mr Apani. And in those circumstances I would agree with my learned colleague here. I understood that Mr Apani was available last week some time.

I didn't have any communications with him, but I think it's also maybe in the interest of the Committee that if Mr Apani's family is available, although not factually they may assist the Committee, Mr Apani will at least have the benefit of at least listening to the witness as it is. So I think in those circumstances, Chairman, that's all I have to say on that subject. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Adv Steenkamp. We are obviously desirous of having these applications concluded as speedily as possible. It's always in the best interest of all of the parties who are involved, for that to happen.

However, it might very well be that there might be some benefit in allowing an opportunity for the parties to consider whether it would assist to place the evidence of, or to place any further evidence, material evidence that is, before the Panel, which might assist us in coming to a decision on the matter.

We would under those circumstances adjourn the matter until tomorrow morning, when we wish to proceed with the matter and to have it finalised before we hear the other matters that are still outstanding on our roll. We will in the circumstances then adjourn and reconvene in this venue tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS