ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: To start the proceedings, for the record today is Thursday, 24th of June 1999. We are continuing with the session of the Amnesty Committee, sitting at JISS Centre in Johannesburg. We were still dealing with the application of Xolani Mnguni. Ms Van der Westhuizen, what is the position with the application at this stage?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, the whereabouts of certain witnesses who might be able to assist the Committee to come to a final decision in this matter, became known to me last night, it was actually confirmed that there are still people who is residing in the Jabulani hostel. I was also given further names of other witnesses. At this stage I do not know what they can add or how they can assist, but it seems that they are available, it is people who travelled on the same train as the train that the applicant travelled on. At this point in time I would request to at least have a week or two weeks indulgence from this Committee to enable me to prepare affidavits for these people or these potential witnesses, if I find that they might contribute at all and also at the same time, hand in a written argument. Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us a date 14 days hence?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I should be able on the 9th of July, that is approximately two weeks.
CHAIRPERSON: The 9th?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The 9th of July. I will however attempt, as soon as I am ready with the affidavits, it might be during the course of next week, I believe the Honourable Members are still sitting together next week, so therefore I will actually endeavour to try and get those affidavits to you during the course of next week, but should I not succeed, I would rather like to have another week's grace, which is the 9th of July, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, Mr Steenkamp, I assume you don't have any objection?
ADV STEENKAMP: No Mr Chairman, I do not have anything to add. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Under the circumstances, the applicant is allowed an opportunity to submit any further evidence in the form of affidavits as well as the written argument on his behalf to the Amnesty Committee on or before the 9th of July 1999.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, may I be excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused Ms Van der Westhuizen, thank you very much for your assistance. Mr Steenkamp, is the next matter that of Seshange?
ADV STEENKAMP: I beg your pardon, yes, Mr Chairman, it is Temba Petros Seshange, amnesty number 5250/96. The applicant is in custody, he is present, his legal representative will be Mr Mbandazayo, we are ready to proceed, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, while I am speaking, if I may just be afforded the opportunity to reveal something about the victims, although this was charges of attempted murder, we have actually located two of the victims, we were informed that they are not really in a position to attend the hearing for whatever reason. The third victim, a certain Mr, apparently Mr Naidoo has left the country and could not be traced as far as Section 19(4) requirements are concerned, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that we are able to proceed with the matter?
ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Then for the purposes of the record, it is the amnesty application of Temba Petros Seshange, AM5250/96. The Panel is constituted as indicated earlier. Mr Mbandazayo, do you want to just put yourself on record?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I am representing the applicant in this matter, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. The Evidence Leader is Adv Steenkamp. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything else that you want to add or do you want us to administer the oath to your client?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I would like the Committee to administer the oath Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshange, can you hear the translation?
MR SESHANGE: Yes, I can hear you.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand. Are your full names Temba Petros Seshange?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
TEMBA PETROS SESHANGE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Mr Mbandazayo?
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the Committee I think has got two affidavits. The first one in the Bundle was the one which was submitted to the then State President for indemnity.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what page is that?
MR MBANDAZAYO: It is from page 15 Chairperson, to page 20. The second affidavit starts from page 12 to page 14, which of course Chairperson, was supplementary to the one which was submitted to the State President for indemnity.
CHAIRPERSON: And was that one submitted to the Amnesty Committee?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: The second one is the one that was submitted to the Amnesty Committee?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson. And Chairperson, I propose to use the second one from page 12 as a basis for this application and also the Committee and my Honourable Members will be free to ask questions also in regard to the first affidavit, but for purposes of leading evidence, I will use the one from page 12 Chairperson, thank you. Chairperson, I will proceed to read for the record, the first affidavit. The affidavit reads thus
"I, the undersigned Temba Petros Seshange do hereby make an oath and say that I am the applicant in the Jeppetown Operation. The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge unless the context states otherwise. I was born on the 14th day of August 1967 at Katlehong, Gauteng. I attended school at Katlehong and I moved to Tembisa where I passed standard 10 in 1991. I joined PAC through AZANEO in 1989 and I was influenced by my brother-in-law, Frank Faltyn who was a member of the PAC and I was staying with him in Tembisa. Late in 1989 I met comrade Brian who was an APLA member, he introduced me to the underground structure and he taught me how to use firearms and grenades. Then I became a member of his Unit until he left Tembisa in 1991. After Brian left, I worked with Tiboes and he left, he also left in 1992. I then worked with Jerry KK who came with the idea that we must form another Unit in Katlehong and we did not have enough material. He then came with the idea of fundraising for the Unit. We were a Unit of five for this operation. I was the Commander of the Unit. It was myself, Wando Silegeno, Jacob Xaba, Futi Dalisolo and Immanuel Tsotetsi. I was reporting directly to KK. We received information from Wando Silegeno who was working for security at I&J Frozen Products that the place was able to have an amount of plus minus R50 000 a day. We decided to attack the place in order to repossess the money. On the 27th of March 1993 around half past six, we attacked the place. We were a Unit of four, the fifth one, Wando Silegeno was at work at the time. I was armed with an AK47 rifle, Tsotetsi with a 9mm pistol, Dalisolo with a knife and Xaba was not armed. We used a taxi to this place. This place was surrounded with fence and we cut through the fence. It was myself and Tsotetsi, Xaba and Dalisolo waited next to the gate of the premises. Myself and Tsotetsi went to the security guards' room and inside there were two security guards Wando Silegeno was one of them. We pointed the other security with a firearm and told him to lie down. Tsotetsi took the uniform off Wando Silegeno and wore it to enable us to approach the Manager of the company. I ordered the other guard to open the gate as it was computerised. He opened and closed it continuously and the Manager noticed that there was something wrong. There were three Managers in the company. The other Manager came until he opened the gate, where we were and we pointed him with a firearm. He struggled with Tsotetsi, but we overpowered him and the other Manager saw that there is something wrong, and they ran away and I shot at them, but I missed them. We then decided to abandon the operation and we ran away and I hid my AK47 in the open veld and we boarded a taxi and left. The following day myself, Tsotetsi and my brother who had a car, went to take the AK47 and we found it and on our way back, we were stopped by Police and arrested for possession of firearms and ammunition. On the 21st of April 1993, I was released on bail which was paid by the PAC. After my release the Branch Chairman, Mandla Cebekhulu asked me to make a written report of the incident and address it to Skubu of the PAC Headquarters in Johannesburg. I did write the report. In May 1993 the PAC Headquarters were raided by the SAP and various documents were confiscated, including my report and on the 26th of May 1993, I was re-arrested on the strength of that report, and charged with armed robbery, attempted murder and possession of arms and ammunition. I am currently serving 15 years, having been convicted and sentenced on various charges including attempted robbery, attempted murder, possession of arms and ammunition. I was sentenced in the Johannesburg Regional Court on the 18th of October 1994, under case number 41/2103/93. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in Jeppetown Operation."
Chairperson, I am not proposing to ask any further questions to the witness, I will leave it to the Committee and the Leader of Evidence to ask any questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can we just confirm with Mr Seshange, you have listened to what Mr Mbandazayo has read out now, the affidavit that you have made?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit as true and correct?
MR SESHANGE: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just before the Committee and the Leader of Evidence ask any questions, I would like to turn to page 3 of the affidavit, page 14, this Skubu, the name Skubu Chairperson, I have managed to get the name of the, the real name, it is David Dube, he is a member of National Intelligence, NIA, at the present moment Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the name?
MR MBANDAZAYO: David, David Dube, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say he is a member of National ...
MR MBANDAZAYO: National Intelligence Agency.
CHAIRPERSON: Agency, okay.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Presently?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Presently Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO: .
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, have you got any questions?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshange, the Unit that you joined under the command of Brian, was that based in Tembisa?
MR SESHANGE: Yes, it was based in Tembisa.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, was it a Task Force Unit or was it an APLA Unit or what was it?
MR SESHANGE: Brian's Unit was an APLA Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: At the time of this incident, was Jerry KK that you referred to in the affidavit, was he the Commander of that Unit?
MR SESHANGE: He became a Commander once Brian had left.
CHAIRPERSON: The name Jerry KK, what is that, is that a combat name or what was that, is that his, is Jerry his real name or ...
MR SESHANGE: That is his code name.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know his real name?
MR SESHANGE: I only got to know him as Freddy Matibela when I met him at the Police station.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it Freddy Matibela?
MR SESHANGE: Matibela.
CHAIRPERSON: You say you met him at the Police station, was he also arrested?
MR SESHANGE: He was arrested in Witbank after I had been arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he also charged with this attempted robbery?
MR SESHANGE: No, he was not charged, but we were interrogated all together.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you the only one that was charged with this incident?
MR SESHANGE: No, Wando Silegeno, Jacob Xaba and Dalisolo as well as Immanuel Tsotetsi were also charged.
CHAIRPERSON: So it is Xaba, Tsotetsi and who is the other one?
MR SESHANGE: Futi Dalisolo.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they convicted or what happened to them?
MR SESHANGE: They were acquitted.
CHAIRPERSON: They were acquitted on this, is it on this attempted robbery charge?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you all charged with the same offences?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Was your case heard at Protea Court in Soweto?
MR SESHANGE: After the Judge who was presiding, the case initially was heard at Westgate and the Presiding Judge was later transferred to Protea Court where the case was equally transferred with him.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this in the Regional Court?
INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated?
CHAIRPERSON: Was this case heard in the Regional Court?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I see that you are serving 15 years. What was the overall sentence that was given to you if you can remember?
MR SESHANGE: Initially the sentence was 27 years.
CHAIRPERSON: And you must serve 15 of those 27 years?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And then just one other thing, did you intend to form a new Unit in Katlehong, another Unit?
MR SESHANGE: Yes, we had already established such a Unit, only that we did not have the necessary material.
CHAIRPERSON: The operation was intended to obtain funds to assist this new Unit that you had formed, would that be correct?
MR SESHANGE: Partly yes, but part of the money would go to the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Just one final thing, the Unit that you commanded, was that established simply just for this operation, for the purposes of this operation? It was not a new Unit in Katlehong?
MR SESHANGE: No. There was supposed to be a Unit at Katlehong.
CHAIRPERSON: But this what you refer to as a Unit, the members of your APLA Unit that were assigned to doing this operation and you were commanding that group of members?
MR SESHANGE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there other questions?
DR TSOTSI: In paragraph 6 of your affidavit, you mention that you were a Unit of four and the fifth one was Wando Silegeno. Was Wando Silegeno a member of your Unit?
MR SESHANGE: Yes, he was a member of the Unit, but he was not operating with me.
DR TSOTSI: In paragraph 7 you say that he was also one of two security guards, is that correct?
MR SESHANGE: Yes, as I indicated earlier on that he was a member of the Unit, but on this particular day he was at work.
DR TSOTSI: I just want to understand, if he was a member of your Unit, what security guard was he then, was he - what was he guarding?
MR SESHANGE: I would say he was a member of my Unit and at the same time, he was employed elsewhere, working for a company which we intended repossessing from. He was working at that company on that particular day.
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you. I am interested in the area of lines of authority as opposed to using your own initiative. You state here that in paragraph 4, that Jerry KK came with the idea that you should start the Unit in Katlehong. He then also came with the idea of fundraising for this new Unit, but when it came to deciding on the operation, the nature of the operation, the target that you were going to hit, whose decision was that, Jerry's or yours as the Commander of the Unit that was going to carry out the operation?
MR SESHANGE: I was reporting to Jerry, so that I would have to inform him of any decision that I was taking, informing him on matters pertaining to a place or a target that had been identified, etc.
ADV GCABASHE : Did you in fact do this, did you discuss the detail of the operation with Jerry?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE : And he sanctioned the operation as your Overall Commander?
MR SESHANGE: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE : Then the report that you submitted to the PAC office, was that a report to Jerry, you know report of how the mission had panned out, worked out, or was that a separate report as required by Head Office, which I perceive as a different area of authority? Just explain that to me.
MR SESHANGE: After the operation, the following morning, I was arrested so that I lost contact with Jerry and when I was released on bail, I was released only to learn that Jerry had just been arrested for other cases so that I had to report to the Head Office on what transpired. By rights Jerry was supposed to report but he could not, because he had been arrested.
ADV GCABASHE : And then the term of sentence that you are serving is in respect of both the armed robbery, that is the arrest of May and in respect of the arms and ammunition, which is the arrest of March that you got bail for?
MR SESHANGE: When I was arrested, these charges were brought together.
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, thank you Mr Seshange, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I am not intending to call another witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicant?
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is the evidence of the applicant and his case.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, is there anything else?
ADV STEENKAMP: No further witnesses from my side, Mr Chair, thank you sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any submissions?
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, let me start by saying before I go to argument, just to clarify one aspect so that the Committee, but I know that Members of the Committee, Adv Gcabashe has canvassed it, the report. Chairperson, the David Dube which I gave you, David Dube, the name I gave you who was Skubu, the report that was given to Skubu, Skubu was in the Head Office, was a member of APLA and he was senior, then he was in Head Office, which means the Head Office of PAC and APLA were in the same place. After he was arrested, he sent Mandla Cebekhulu who was a Branch Chairman, PAC Branch Chairman, to the applicant when he was released on bail that he must make a report to him.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Branch Chairman?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mandla Cebekhulu was a Branch Chairman who was sent, when he is saying that Mandla Cebekhulu asked him to report, to make a report to the Head Office, it was the Head Office of APLA, not necessarily the Head Office of PAC, but they were in the same place, in the same building. It was the Head Office of APLA, so it was needed by APLA since his immediate Commander was arrested. This is how it happened that it was directed to the Head Office.
Chairperson, having moved, clarified that aspect, it is my submission that if one looks at the record and looks at the report, Chairperson, one was left with one thing in his mind, that it is clear there is no reason that the PAC or APLA would have known about this incident when the applicant was arrested, that it was their operation if this was not sanctioned at a higher level of APLA. It is clear that the reason why he was asked to make that report was because they have already had prior knowledge that this was their operation.
ADV GCABASHE : But you are saying APLA, not necessarily the PAC, but APLA as his structure?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, APLA as the structure. It is Chairperson, therefore my assumption without saying anything that Jerry, it is clear that Jerry had already communicated to his immediate seniors that there are this kind of operation, this was our operation. Definitely Chairperson, if it was not their operation, there would be no reason for them to go and pay bail for him and subsequently afforded legal representation by the PAC in his case, where he was represented by Mr Mafundla who happened also at the same time, at that particular point in time, was a member of the PAC.
Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that the operation in which, the incident in which Mr Seshange was involved in, was indeed APLA operation and therefore the operation was in that sense, politically motivated as the purpose of the operation was to carry out the mission of APLA. As correctly put in the affidavit, I don't need to deal with it, especially the affidavit which was dealing with his indemnity Chairperson, the purpose when it was submitted to the State President, former State President, that he must be released because what he did, was in pursuance of the political struggle at that particular point in time. Chairperson, also that aspect on its own, the applying for him for indemnity by the PAC then, which was done at that particular point in time by then Adv Digang Mosenege, who happened to know, who drafted this application for him for indemnity, so that on its own, indicates that this operation was known, was communicated also to the leadership of PAC, everybody was well aware that what was done by Mr Seshange was in pursuance of the political struggle which was waged at that particular point in time, then they had to secure his release.
Without worrying you with argument Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that the applicant has complied with the requirements of Section 20, subsection 1 and also subsection 2, that he was quite clearly acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation and a liberation movement, which was engaged in a political struggle against the State at that time. Chairperson, it is therefore, I don't need to deal with the Sections, it is well known to the Committee that the applicant has established that he was acting on behalf of APLA and that Chairperson, that he had made a full disclosure regarding his participation in this incident.
Chairperson, that he did not act for political gain, sorry Chairperson, for personal gain Chairperson, sorry Chairperson, not for personal gain Chairperson, sorry Chairperson, through you Chairperson. He did not act for personal gain, he acted on behalf and therefore Chairperson, it is also my submission that he had established that all his actions were politically motivated and therefore Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee, it is therefore my submission and my humble request that the applicant has met the requirements of the Act and therefore request the Committee to grant him the application as requested. That is all Chairperson, unless the Committee would like me to address it on any other specific point.
CHAIRPERSON: Just, what happened to the indemnity application?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the indemnity application as it is contained here, they were transferred at the time when it was made, it was at the time when this idea of amnesty, truth and reconciliation was conceived, then it was transferred to the Amnesty Committee and then he had to make an application in terms of the forms of the TRC and also it was attached, so the State President, the office of the State President transferred it to the Amnesty Committee so that it can deal with it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Adv Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, only one I can maybe just point out that at the time of the indemnity application, at the specific time the application was launched, the Act of the TRC came into operation which evoked the previous Act on indemnity. I actually have got certain documents in my possession that can show that. So the Indemnity Act was actually revoked, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Adv Steenkamp. Yes, that concludes the application before us. We will consider the matter and we will notify the parties once the decision in the matter is available. We thank you for your assistance.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Seshange, you are excused. The remaining matter to my knowledge is the one of Mr Khala.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Mr Monti is not proceeding as we understand it, Mr Mbandazayo, is that correct?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, the application of Mr Monti as I earlier indicated in chambers Chairperson, we would like it to be removed and be heard together with his other applications. Today we will only proceed with Mr Khala's application, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
