CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning. We want to start the proceedings. Just for the record it is Tuesday the 28th of September 1999. We are continuing with the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the Jiss Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as has been indicated on the record and we are continuing with the amnesty application of Mr Moele and this morning we will deal with the incident concerning the Ormonde police station.
Mr Smit is there anything that you want to put on record in respect of this incident, or do you want to proceed to present the evidence on that issues?
MR SMIT: Mr Chairman, I will proceed to present the evidence. As you will notice in this application it is Mr Moele as well as Maj Mametse, who are the applicants. Maybe I should just state at this stage, Maj Mametse has not arrived yet this morning. He yesterday mentioned to me that he had certain transport problems. I will start in the meantime with the evidence of Mr Moele and then hopefully Maj Mametse will arrive during the leading of Mr Moele's evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's in order Mr Smit, we will carry on with Mr Moele, so as not to lose out on too much time and then once Mr Mametse is available, then we can take his testimony.
MR SMIT: As it pleases the Committee, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Do you want your client to be sworn in?
MR SMIT: Could I request so, Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
DANIEL MOELE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit.
EXAMINATION BY MR SMIT: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Moele, you've previously testified in the other application that you, during 1993, were a member of the ANC and also the second in Command of the Katorus MK, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: Now during or on a specific date, the 27th of February 1993, you stated in an affidavit that you were involved in a robbery that took place at the Ormonde police station, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: Under whose command were you on that day?
MR MOELE: Under my Commander, Mr Mametse.
MR SMIT: And how many people were you when you went to rob the Ormonde police station?
MR MOELE: We were six.
MR SMIT: Was Maj Mametse one of these six people?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: Can you remember the names of the others?
MR MOELE: Yes, I do. It was myself, Major Mametse, Sepiwhe Mukumo, Tommy Manyedza and one known as Sparkie and Comrade Makaula.
MR SMIT: Were all six of you members of the MK at that stage?
MR MOELE: Four of us were members of the MK and two were members of the SDU and there were three inside the country.
MR SMIT: Now do you know what the reason was for going to the police station to rob it? Why did you go there?
MR MOELE: The reason to rob the police station was to acquire firearms, especially the smaller firearms like pistols.
MR SMIT: What were you going to do with these pistols?
MR MOELE: Firstly because we had AK47 sub-machine guns, we needed the pistols for personal security and also to train SDU comrades with these firearms that we got inside the country, in South Africa.
MR SMIT: So if I understand you correctly, you wanted to distribute these pistols that you then obtained through the robbery to SDU members for them to utilise?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: Okay. Could you explain to the Committee or tell the Committee, on the date of the attack, how you -who planned the attack? Let me get that first.
MR MOELE: Maj Mametse planned the attack with myself and one of us, Comrade Makaula.
MR SMIT: What were your instructions? What did you have to do during the attack?
MR MOELE: My instructions are like this. I was one of the persons who was supposed to penetrate into the police station and capture the firearms.
MR SMIT: Okay. When you arrived, how many of you entered the police station?
MR MOELE: When we arrived, we entered, four in number. Mr Mametse was left at the door and outside to be on the lookout for policemen or any other person. Myself and the other three, I was with the two of these four who were supposed to get guns from the policemen.
MR SMIT: Just to get the record straight, this was a satellite police station, it's one of the smaller stations, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: When you arrived, how many policemen were on duty inside the station?
MR MOELE: If I am not mistaken, there were three policemen.
MR SMIT: And the four of you entering, were you armed with firearms?
MR MOELE: We were armed with AK47s.
MR SMIT: Now when you entered, what happened inside?
MR MOELE: When we entered the police station, it so happened that one policeman got inside through a passage that led to where I didn't know. I followed the policeman and pointed the policeman with the firearm, told him that I would shoot at him or her if he would give me problems. We were there to collect the firearms, we're not there to kill them. I took a gun from him and I left him kneeling on the ground, on the floor.
MR SMIT: You've now stated that you said to the policeman, you are not there to kill. During the whole robbery were any shots fired by you or your comrades?
MR MOELE: No, we did not.
MR SMIT: Okay, if we can just proceed. After you had then taken the policeman's pistol, what did you then do?
MR MOELE: I left him there, having told the policeman that if he tried anything funny, we would shoot at the target, him or her and when I got back I found Comrade Dumi having opened the safe where the firearms were placed and I took two-way radios so that they could not use them, as we escape from that place.
MR SMIT: How many two-way radios did you take?
MR MOELE: I took two myself.
MR SMIT: And how many firearms did you yourself take?
MR MOELE: Personally, I took that pistol I got from the policeman I followed along the passage. Others were already taken by others who were in the police station when I followed this one who ran along the passage.
MR SMIT: Now except the two two-way radios that you took and the pistol, did you take anything else from any of the policemen in the station?
MR MOELE: No, Sir, I took nothing. Even to this policeman that I went to, I took nothing that belonged to him personally, but I took the service pistol.
MR SMIT: After you left the police station, did you count how many pistols in all were gathered by the lot of you?
MR MOELE: Yes, we did count them. We had three of them.
MR SMIT: So in total, three pistols were taken on that day?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: And then also the two two-way radios?
MR MOELE: That is correct and boxes that pack the pistols and the manuals for using these pistols and cleaning instruments for these pistols.
MR SMIT: Did you take any ammunition?
MR MOELE: No, I do not remember anybody reporting that we took ammunition.
MR SMIT: Did you see if any of your comrades who penetrated the police station with you, if they took any personal effects of any of the policemen inside the police station?
MR MOELE: No, Sir, no one reported that he took anything besides the pistols and the manuals I referred to and the box that packs the pistols.
MR SMIT: When you left the police station, the policeman, the three that you saw, were they still inside the police station after you've now taken the guns?
MR MOELE: Yes, according to my knowledge they were left inside the police station.
MR SMIT: Were they standing around, or sitting, or did you order them to do anything else?
MR MOELE: The one that I followed along the passage, as I have said, I left him kneeling down. The others inside the police station were not standing up. I do not know whether they ordered them to lie down on the floor, but they were not standing up on their feet.
MR SMIT: Okay, these pistols and two-way radios that you now took from the police station, what were done with them after the robbery, do you know?
MR MOELE: We took them to the location. We trained the comrades to use the pistols that we found inside the country because we could not get others outside the country and this was done for them to know how to use these pistols when they bought them themselves and they were to be used for personal security around the location, because we could not carry machine guns or these long guns around the location duration the day and also when you go for meetings.
MR SMIT: Was you only objective when robbing the police station to obtain weapons for the SDU's or did you have another objective in specifically going for a satellite police station?
MR MOELE: Yes, I would say we needed to get the firearms to show that when we have planned our mission well, we could disarm the policemen without having fired a single shot. We had the knowledge that there are policemen who disliked the negotiations that were going on and we wanted to demonstrate that we also had the capability of unleashing violence, but to show our disciplined behaviour, we were not going to fire any shots when we robbed them.
MR SMIT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMIT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Smit. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any questions?
MS VILAKAZI: I do have questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, just for the record, you're appearing on behalf of?
MS VILAKAZI: On behalf of the victims, Maj Mbhele, sorry Sgt Mbhele, Zulu and Molapi.
ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Mr Moele, when you went to the Ormonde police station, how many of you went inside? You said there were six of you, but how many of you went inside the police station?
MR MOELE: I said that four of us got into the police station. Maj Mametse went inside and got outside as he was supposed to be on the lookout for policemen who might come in after we have entered, to alert us and to protect us. We went inside, all three of us.
MS VILAKAZI: So, in total four of you went inside, is that what you're saying?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: One of the four guarded at the door?
MR MOELE: Yes.
MS VILAKAZI: Did the three of you who went inside the police station, go all at the same time?
MR MOELE: We went inside the police station following each other. We got in through what I would call ...(indistinct), but a combination.
MS VILAKAZI: Do you remember who was at the front?
MR MOELE: I was the one leading these three. The one who was at the forefront was Mr Mametse, who went inside and got outside.
MS VILAKAZI: I'm talking about the three who went inside. Are you saying you were the one at the front?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MS VILAKAZI: And then you found this policeman at the passage, is that correct?
MR MOELE: As we entered, I don't know whether this policeman saw that we had firearms, he was standing on his feet, entering along the passage that led to where I didn't know, but I followed the policeman along the passage.
MS VILAKAZI: From your explanation it means that the passage is away from the charge office where the other policemen were, is that correct?
MR MOELE: There is a door in the charge office like this one here of the Committee room here and then as we go through that door, there is a corridor that led to where I did not know.
MS VILAKAZI: So are you saying that the minutes that you spent in the police station, you were at the passage with that particular policeman? You didn't go into the charge area, the charge office area?
MR MOELE: I entered and I passed the charge office area and followed that policeman who went along the passage.
MS VILAKAZI: And then from the passage, after you had taken whatever it is you took from the policeman, what did you do? Where did you go?
MR MOELE: I went back to the charge office area. I found them having finished what they were there to do and I took the two-way radios which were on the chargers, they were being charged there.
MS VILAKAZI: And where were those two chargers, exactly where?
MR MOELE: Let me say the table in front here is the counter of the charge office area. There was a sort of a table or a shelf on the wall, that’s were the chargers were.
MS VILAKAZI: Did you have to go the other side of the counter to get the chargers?
MR MOELE: It is a passage next to the counter and they were just there on the wall and I came from within the police station, along this passage where I was and I didn't have to go around the counter to collect them.
ADV DE JAGER: It's not quite clear to me. Is this application opposed by you, or are you only wanting to get the true facts before us, or are your clients opposing the application?
MS VILAKAZI: Let me put it on record, Honourable Commissioner, that the applicants are not opposing the application per se, but there are some personal effects that were taken from them and they want those personal effects back.
ADV DE JAGER: Well, perhaps if you could put it quite straightforward to him and say "Well, we differ with this. In fact we don't agree that you only took the weapons." Put it to him straight away and let's hear what he says.
MS VILAKAZI: With due respect, Honourable Counsellor, I first wanted to establish as to the exact chain of events, because there is a possibility that the personal effects were taken by somebody other than the applicant himself, so I just wanted to establish that, because in the applicant's statement, he says no personal effects were taken. I just have to establish that.
ADV DE JAGER: And they can't recognise him today as the person who took the personal effects?
MS VILAKAZI: They cannot say with certainty exactly who did that.
ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
MS VILAKAZI: Going back to our questions, Mr Moele. Now after you took, or at the time when you took the two-way radio stations, how far were you from the other policemen, the two other policemen?
MR MOELE: It is difficult to pin my position exactly at that time. About three or five metres, but it's very difficult for me to state exactly where I was at that time.
MS VILAKAZI: But can you say that you didn't go anywhere near them?
MR MOELE: Yes, I can say so.
MS VILAKAZI: You said that when you came back from the passage, after you had finished with the other policemen, you found that the safe was already opened. Are you still saying so?
MR MOELE: Yes, that is what I'm saying.
MS VILAKAZI: And had the pistols already been removed from the safe?
MR MOELE: Yes, they were already taken from the safe.
MS VILAKAZI: Can you speculate on how long it took you between when you entered, the three of you entered and when you came back into the common area? Can you just give us an indication of how long it took you?
MR MOELE: Although it would be difficult because I did not look at my watch, it was about three to five minutes. It was quite quick.
MS VILAKAZI: So for that 3 to 5 minutes, you cannot say exactly what happened in the common area, you can only talk about what happened when you were at the passage and when you went back there.
MR MOELE: That is how we operate. A person carries out what he must do.
MS VILAKAZI: Alright. Now you said that no personal effects were taken from the policemen in the station. Are you still saying that, despite the fact that you were not there at all relevant times?
MR MOELE: Yes, I'm saying personally I took no personal effects of any other person and even with that policeman, I took only a pistol and I'm still saying no-one reported to me or to the Commander that they took any personal effects of any other policeman at that police station.
ADV BOSMAN: May I just interrupt here please, Ms Vilakazi? If someone had reported to you that they had taken personal effects, what would your response to that have been?
MR MOELE: That would have been something the person did himself, the person would have shown lack of discipline and that would have amounted to undermining our intention through that operation we had to undertake there. A punishment would be lashed out at this person.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi, you may continue.
MS VILAKAZI: A follow-up on that question. Was it a known fact that you mete out punishment to ill-disciplined members?
MR MOELE: Yes, that is correct. Just like in any other establishment, we also would have disciplined such a member.
MS VILAKAZI: So, I'm putting it to you that it is possible that if not you, the other two comrades of yours could have taken the personal effects, and knowing that they would be punished, because that would be out of line with the operation, they may have decided to keep quiet. What is your comment on that?
MR MOELE: I'm also saying to you that the comrades in my company at that time, they are tried and tested cadres, they are very disciplined and if they don't report that they took any personal effects of policemen, then I also know for a fact that they never took any personal effects of any policeman.
MS VILAKAZI: Mr Moele, you cannot say you know, you can only believe that they did not take, you cannot say you know that they did not take anything. Can you respond to that?
MR MOELE: Because I did not see them, I cannot say I know, but I know them to be disciplined comrades who would have reported same to me if they took anything belonging to a policeman.
MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you, that I'm going to call Constable Mbhele who is going to testify that his watch and wallet, Panasonic radio cassette player and some cassette tapes were taken from him. What is your comment on that?
MR MOELE: I would deny that. A radio cassette player is something that we would have seen, even though it was not reported to have been taken from him.
MS VILAKAZI: Constable Zulu is also going to testify that his watch and wallet were taken from him. What's your comment on that?
MR MOELE: As Deputy Commander, nobody reported to me that he took personal items of policemen, because I know there was no-one who was supposed to take a wristwatch or a cassette player of any other person at that station.
MS VILAKAZI: Why was it so?
MR MOELE: That was not the operation's objective or intention. That was a paramilitary operation which had a political orientation and we must have left a clear political message there, not a criminal message that must be left behind at that station.
MS VILAKAZI: So are you saying that taking the watches and wallets would have fallen outside the political operation?
MR MOELE: Yes, that would not show our intention of coming there with a political orientation of our operation, that would have been transgressing our instructions. We were not there to shoot at people and rob them of their personal items, we were there to take the police station property.
MS VILAKAZI: And then lastly, Const Molapi will also give testimony to the effect that his watch and money were also taken from him, what is your comment on that?
MR MOELE: I will deny that. Everything that was taken was reported to me or the Commander, even if it was only reported to the Commander, the Commander would inform me and a disciplinary action would be meted out against that comrade.
MS VILAKAZI: From what you're saying, you relied on what was disclosed, is that correct, as to what has been taken?
MR MOELE: Yes, that is what is known to them and that they must report same to me and the Commander also.
MS VILAKAZI: So none of you were searched?
MR MOELE: We did not have a reason to search any other person.
MS VILAKAZI: Okay, one last question, I hope this is the very last one. Two of the people that you were with were SDU members, they were not trained MK members, that's what you said.
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MS VILAKAZI: Did they also go into the police station?
MR MOELE: Only one of them got inside, the other one was the driver.
MS VILAKAZI: How well-known is he to you?
MR MOELE: Tommy Manyedza is well-known to me because he was our Commander's bodyguard.
MS VILAKAZI: So it's the same Tommy Manyedza who opened the safe and took the pistols from the safe?
MR MOELE: Yes, that's correct.
MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Ms Lockhat any questions?
MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Mr Moele tell me how many arms did you personally possess?
CHAIRPERSON: Where? That day, or at what stage?
MS LOCKHAT: Just at that point in time.
CHAIRPERSON: When they executed the robbery?
MS LOCKHAT: Yes, and then just also before his arrest.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when was he arrested?
MS LOCKHAT: It was ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That same day, or what?
MS LOCKHAT: June, after the incident at the Transvaal Galvanised Company.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, was this - did this robbery precede ...(intervention)
MS LOCKHAT: Before. It was before. This happened ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: This one?
MS LOCKHAT: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see and they talk about February 1993.
MS LOCKHAT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you follow Mr Moele? What weapons did you have when you went to rob the police station and also what weapons did you have when you were arrested eventually after that robbery at Galvanised ...(intervention)
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, just personal weapons, his own weapons, how many weapons did he have, not just for the robberies, but just generally that he had in his possession.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps Ms Lockhat we must just make it clear now. Do you mean you want to know whether he was in possession of an arsenal of weapons at the point when, in February, when this robbery happened? In general, not what he had on his person when he went into the ...(intervention)
MS LOCKHAT: That is as an individual, how many weapons did he personally have as an individual, as an MK?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that's what I don't understand. On the scene or when, or where? On the scene of the robbery?
MS LOCKHAT: Just - it doesn't have to be on the scene of the robbery, I just want to know whether he had any other weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Alright, alright. I hope you followed what was going on now, Mr Moele?
ADV DE JAGER: How many weapons did you have under your control, at your house or wherever you stayed, or did you carry along with you?
CHAIRPERSON: I had one pistol when I got arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Now apart from that, did you possess any other weapons?
MR MOELE: There were weapons at the location but the Commander would deploy them to others. He would inform me if there was a necessity for me to use them.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so there was an arsenal of weapons, but those weapons were controlled by the Commander, by Mr Mametse, not by yourself?
MR MOELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And he decided how to distribute those weapons and to whom?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Lockhat.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, and then just one last question. Mr Mametse says that there's a possibility that you could get integrated into the SADF or the SAPS. Do you see that as a possibility for your future?
MR MOELE: I see that as a possibility if I could get amnesty, but if I don't get amnesty, I would be a criminal. I think there's a possibility that I can be integrated into the Defence Force.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV DE JAGER: I would only want to comment actually and I would like to state that this is one of the rare cases that we've heard where no shots were fired, nobody was killed even after you've disarmed them, you didn't kill, because in many other cases police were disarmed and killed after they'd been disarmed.
ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, in your evidence you said that you only wanted handguns, you were not interested in AK47s. Am I correct? Did I understand you correctly?
MR MOELE: Yes, we wanted pistols. If we could get the pump action firearms, we would also take them. We could not take pistols and leave them with R5 rifles, they would hit back at us.
ADV BOSMAN: Understandably, but do I understand your evidence correctly that your interest was in pistols because you did not have such a need for the AK47s? Your need was for pistols? Smaller guns, I think were the words that were used.
MR MOELE: At that time we had AK47s but we needed pistols at this particular point in time.
ADV BOSMAN: Why I'm asking you is that yesterday in the other incident which happened fairly soon after you said that you wanted the R10 000 to buy AK47s, now how did this need arise?
MR MOELE: The situation changed in July, if you can focus on this matter, on 27th of April, the date was set as such for the 1994 elections at Kempton Park and violence erupted in Katorus, to a point where we were forced to get machine firearms.
ADV BOSMAN: At the time when you needed the pistols, did you not have a need for firearms because there was violence in Katorus?
MR MOELE: Yes, but I have already stated that the pistols would be used to train the SDUs with the pistols that we got inside the country. Again I said you can defend yourself using a pistol whether you are two or three, even if you go for meetings, should there be a need for a specific activity.
ADV BOSMAN: And then just one more question, the two SDU members that went along with you, to which SDU did they belong?
MR MOELE: The members of the Vosloorus SDU, we stay with them at the location.
ADV BOSMAN: Vosloorus?
MR MOELE: That is correct, Vosloorus.
ADV BOSMAN: Did any of these SDU members accompany you when you went to rob the Transvaal Galvanised Company?
MR MOELE: No, Tommy was already deceased. He was shot by the police at the house and Sparkie was already deceased, he had a car accident.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit, any re-examination?
MR SMIT: I have no re-examination thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SMIT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Moele, you're excused. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Now has Mr Mametse arrived, or what?
MR SMIT: Indeed, Mr Chairman, Mr Mametse did arrive.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are you able to, are you ready to proceed with his evidence, or do you need to speak to him, or what?
MR SMIT: Could I have a quick word with him? I have not had the opportunity this morning yet to speak to him. I would just like to clear something up if you'd give me 10 minutes, that would be sufficient. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll adjourn for ten minutes.
MR SMIT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
