CHAIRPERSON: We are about to start the proceedings. It's Thursday, 14 October 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty session at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as has been indicated on the record earlier.
We are about to hear the amnesty application of Patrick Luneng Masha, amnesty reference AM5875/97. Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Good morning Chairperson, fellow Committee Members. We are ready to proceed, Chairperson. Perhaps before the applicant is sworn in, may I formally make an application for condonation of the non-attestation of his application form. It has not been attested to by a Commissioner of Oaths. He is ready to be sworn in for evidence, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I assume there's no objection to
that application?
MS THABETHE: No objection, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then the non-attestation is condoned and we will hear your client's application.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson, he is ready to be sworn in.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Masha, what language are you going to testify in?
MR MASHA: sePedi.
CHAIRPERSON: sePedi. Then you must put on the headphones.
PATRICK LUNENG MASHA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Mr Koopedi?
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Masha, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and you are applying for the bombing of a house belonging to one ...(intervention)
MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, can I?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS THABETHE: I realise that one of the victims doesn't have a mike.
CHAIRPERSON: A headset for one of the interested parties please. Just indicate when it's okay. We'll just wait until everybody who needs a headset has got one.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, we may proceed.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Koopedi, sorry, you go ahead.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson, we will start afresh.
Is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and that you're applying for amnesty for having bombed the house of one, Elizabeth Makwana?
MR MASHA: That's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that this incident took place around 1986, at Tseshlaweng(?) village?
MR MASHA: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I'm not sure if I should proceed because my learned friend is held up. Right? Okay, thank you.
Now during 1986, were you a member of any political organisation or party?
MR MASHA: Yes, I was a member of the South African Youth Congress and Cosas, in our community where I come from as they were affiliates to the UDF movement.
MR KOOPEDI: Now could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened on this day when this house was attacked, or - ja, why this house was attacked.
MR MASHA: Briefly, in 1986, as I have already stated that I was a member of the organisations I mentioned, we sat down at a meeting where at it was stated that there's one of the teachers who, actually was a principal at the school, who was suspected as a spy against liberation movements.
Attempts were made at this meeting to attack his house, not actually to go and kill the person. We only used the petrol bombs, not dangerous weapons. Myself and the deceased, Jack, we were assigned to take this attack. That is why we did this incident at that time. Briefly, that is how it happened.
There was not much damage like we heard. What actually took place is that only the windows were smashed. The other thing is that after this attack we dispersed, Jack went his way. We didn't leave the place all together and I cannot mention where everybody went. In brief that is what I can say.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you attack Mr Phala's house?
MR MASHA: What happened is that according to the explanation that we got at the meeting, we were not given the correct direction to Mr Phala. So we attached the neighbouring house.
MR KOOPEDI: Now what was the political objective that you sought to achieve with this attack?
MR MASHA: As I have previously explained, the community was being harassed and being arrested. As I have explained Mr Phala's activities, we wanted to ward off these things so that we have unity in our community under common liberation movement to fight against apartheid.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you benefit anything financially from this attack?
MR MASHA: I was never enriched by this attack.
MR KOOPEDI: Where is Jack, this Jack that was with you?
MR MASHA: At the moment Jack long passed away.
MR KOOPEDI: May I for the record's sake indicate that when the applicant said ...(sePedi), that doesn't mean he passed away a long time ago, it just means that he's dead. It's a respectable way in Pedi of putting it.
Do you think that you have told this Committee the whole truth about this incident?
MR MASHA: If I'm not mistaken I've stated the whole truth.
MR KOOPEDI: Were you ever arrested or threatened with arrest for this incident?
MR MASHA: I have never been arrested and I was not threatened with arrest.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that will be the applicant's application.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Thabethe, have you got any questions?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair. Before I proceed with my questions, Mr Chair, I would like to state it on record that I'm representing the victims in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS THABETHE: In the summary it's been written that the victims is Mrs Elizabeth Makwana, that's a mistake, it's actually Mr Philemon Makwana, the owner of the house that was targeted.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the owner of the house that was attacked, that was actually attacked?
MS THABETHE: Yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Philemon Makwana?
MS THABETHE: Makwana, yes. And I'm also representing Mr Phala, P-h-a-l-a, and his first name is Leshata, L-e-s-h-a-t-a. He is the principal who was the intended target.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've noted that.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Masha, you have given evidence that Mr Phala was suspected to be a spy, can you tell the Committee who he was suspected by?
MR MASHA: I have clearly stated that this was explained at a council meeting that we had in our community, that Mr Phala is suspected of being an informer.
MS THABETHE: Can you explain to the Committee on what basis was it said that Mr Phala was a spy, in this meeting?
MR MASHA: As I have explained, he was the one who was against liberation movements. It did happen that a lot of people were arrested and others get harassed by some of the soldiers in the village. This is what I've explained, that he was against the liberation organisations.
MS THABETHE: Maybe it's an interpretation problem, Mr Masha. What I don't understand or what I'm trying to ascertain from you is, I've heard that you're saying he was against political movements, but what I'm asking is, on what basis was a conclusion reached that just because he's against political movements or it is alleged that hew as against political movements, therefore he is a spy. On what basis did you reach this conclusion?
MR MASHA: May you please explain, I don't understand.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, may I just come in here?
Did you know who they were talking about at this meeting when they mentioned the name of Mr Phala?
MR MASHA: Chairperson, as I have explained, at this meeting that is where I knew who they were talking about. He was one of the principals in the community.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but as I understand you this is what was said at the meeting, you had no personal knowledge of Mr Phala being a spy and being against liberation movements. People were talking at the meeting, isn't that correct?
MR MASHA: I do not know, Chairperson, because personally the question you asked I have already explained, that this came out of a meeting that Mr Phala is an informer. Therefore, and what was explained and the reasons stated brought me to that conclusions.
ADV SANDI: Who was saying this at the meeting?
MR MASHA: I do not recall who was saying that because this happened long ago. As a lot of people were present and a lot injured(sic), I did not keep a diary on what happened and who said what.
ADV SANDI: You may proceed, Ma'am.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, I'm indebted to you.
You have also given evidence that you were assigned, you and Jack were assigned to go and attack this house, can you explain who assigned you and where did this take place, this assignment?
MR MASHA: I did state that the attack took place after the meeting, because this man functions in this manner, we must sit with that he be threatened or, then this attack took place at the Tseshlaweng village.
MS THABETHE: My question is, who assigned you? Because in the evidence that you gave you said you and Jack were assigned to go and attack this house. My question is, who assigned you?
MR MASHA: We were given this assignment at the meeting.
MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps the correct interpretation would be "by the meeting", not "at the meeting".
MS THABETHE: Thanks.
Were there any reasons why you specifically, and Jack, were assigned and not other people who were in the meeting?
MR MASHA: I cannot tell the reasons that made them to get that decision. Maybe the meeting decided that there's something it makes it fit for us to do this assignment.
MS THABETHE: Is there any particular reason why you did not include - the fact that this decision was reached in a meeting, is there particular reason why you didn't include this in your application?
MR MASHA: Your question is not well stated, I don't understand it. Could you please repeat it.
MS THABETHE: You have just given evidence that there was a meeting that was held and there was a decision that was taken that Mr Phala's house should be attacked, my question is, why didn't you include such an important factor in your application? Because as the application appears you just say
"We did this because we ..."
... I'm reading from paragraph 10(b). You've stated that -
"We did this because we were suspecting them to be spies"
Is there any reason why you did not include this important factor of the meeting in your application?
MR MASHA: Yes, I do understand the question. Allow me to explain. What is in this application is in brief, because I know that I have applied for amnesty and I would come to explain all this that happened on that day today.
MS THABETHE: Maybe I was not listening or maybe I did not hear you properly. Can you describe how you actually attacked the house and what did you use to attack the house?
MR MASHA: I don't know whether you did not listen, but I'd like to explain. We were the two who were assigned to attack Mr Phala's house. I stated that it was myself and Jack Masha and I stated that Jack Masha is deceased. We attacked this house, the two of us attacked this house.
At the meeting it was understood that those who'd assist us or back us up would do so, but I want to state that we did this, the two of us. After the incident each one of us went his way. So I cannot tell where the other went.
MS THABETHE: My question, Mr Masha is, what did you use to attack the house. I'm talking about the actual attack now, the actual act that you're applying for amnesty for.
MR MASHA: I'm very thankful that you asked this question, that's your second question. We used petrol bombs as I stated this in the first instance. Nothing else that we used which - could have been more powerful than we used as petrol bombs.
MS THABETHE: What time was it when you attacked the house?
MR MASHA: If I still remember, it was around nine and ten.
MS THABETHE: My instructions, Mr Masha, from Mr Phala, is that he was never an informer or a police spy, do you have any response on this?
MR MASHA: I cannot tell, any person knows what his activities are. If that's what he states, I don't know how to react to that. But each one of us knows what he or she stands for.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am Any questions from the Panel?
ADV BOSMAN: Just one or two.
Did you know Mr Phala at all, Mr Masha, did you know him personally?
MR MASHA: As I've explained, he is a principal in one of the schools in the community. As I come from that community, I know Mr Phala.
ADV BOSMAN: I just wanted to know whether you knew about him or whether you knew him personally. Did you ever talk with each other or not?
MR MASHA: Will you repeat the question, I do not understand you.
ADV BOSMAN: I just want to know whether you knew him well or whether you just knew about him in the community.
MR MASHA: I just know that he is a principal at the school.
INTERPRETER: May the witness please repeat the name of the school, I missed that one, the pronunciation is not right for me.
MR KOOPEDI: I will assist if I may. Thibamoshito. The spelling would be T-i-t-a-m-o-s-h-i-t-o.
ADV BOSMAN: And then just one more question, if you can just clarity. If you look at paragraph 10(a) of your application form, you say there that the political objective was to eliminate the spies. Can you just explain what you meant by the word "eliminate".
MR MASHA: Let me briefly explain that I am not a white person, I cannot speak the white man's language, but according to my understanding the objective was to threaten all those who were against us. Those who understand English, may interpret it in the correct manner, but my language is sePedi, Northern Sesotho.
ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: Was it your intention to kill those people you regarded as spies?
MR MASHA: I believe when I gave evidence here, I never intended to kill, I've always stated that we threatened these people.
ADV SANDI: How many petrol bombs did you have? Did each one of you have his own petrol bomb?
MR MASHA: At that time I stated that it was myself and Jack and if I remember well, I had three to four, as much as Jack had three to four of the petrol bombs.
ADV SANDI: Were all those bombs thrown into the house?
MR MASHA: Chairperson, we did thrown them into the house, but even so, we do not know if all of them did get into the house. Some of them would not ignite, some of them would, so we do not know how many of them did actually explode.
ADV SANDI: Did you say a wrong house was petrol-bombed?
MR MASHA: Yes, that is what I stated, Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: That is because you had not been given a clear direction of the exact target?
MR MASHA: That is what I stated, the reason being correct as you state.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Masha, you are excused, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any evidence, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, yes. Before you excuse him, can I ask for your indulgence, Mr Chair, something has come up and I want to confirm it with the other victim, on the question that was asked by our Honourable Member of the Committee, Mr Sandi.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you want to consult with somebody?
MS THABETHE: I just want to confirm quickly, yes, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well do that.
MS THABETHE: Thank you. I'm indebted to you, Mr Chair. Can I put this question to the witness please?
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got further questions to the applicant?
MS THABETHE: Yes, please, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well let's hear.
Mr Masha, you're not yet excused, I have to ask you just to hold on a minute, Ms Thabethe has got some questions she wants to put to you, further questions.
MS THABETHE: It's just one aspect, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: My instructions, Mr Masha, are that there were 9 bombs that exploded that night and there were 25 bombs that were found at Mr Makwana's yard, that had not exploded. Do you have any comment on that? In other words, would you agree or disagree with that.
MR MASHA: Can you please repeat your question, I did not hear you. Let's check if the headsets are correct or not. Can you ask the technician to check his headsets.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do that, just check if his headset is right. My one has also been faulty, but for some or other reason it's now behaving. Is it on the right channel? Right, we seem to be back on line, as they say.
MS THABETHE: My question is, my instructions are that there were 9 bombs that exploded, or at least 9 bombs that exploded and there were 25 bombs that were found outside Mr Makwana's yard, that had not exploded. What is your response to that?
MR MASHA: I have explained. If I remember well, I had three to four petrol bombs, as much as Jack. There was supposed to be backups from the meeting, so we do not know whether the backup from the meeting had petrol bombs or not. But what I remember is what I've already explained. Whether there were 25 or 24 in the yard, which did not explode, I cannot confirm that, I do not know that and there's no comment that I will deliver on that.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You've got nothing?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: You're now excused, Mr Masha, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Thabethe, have you got any evidence that you intend to present?
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. I had explained earlier on to the Committee that Mr Phala wanted an opportunity to come and address you on the allegations that has made of him. So I would like to call him to do so, Mr Chair, with your permission.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It doesn't seen as if - I mean, I assume that Mr Phala - who is Mr Phala by the way? Sitting next to you. Now I assume that he has heard what the applicant has said. The applicant doesn't say that he was a police informer as a fact, I think the applicant has tried to explain how this came about. So I hope he's heard and he's understood that. So I'm just saying that so that we don't get bogged down in an unnecessary issue which is really not alive. There is no evidence that, as a matter of fact, Mr Phala was a police informer. So perhaps that might assist him in presenting whatever he wants to present to us.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: So he wants to say something?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I'll have to swear him in.
Mr Phala, please switch on your microphone please and please stand, you must take the oath. Just give your full names for the record please, first.
LESHATA THOMAS PHALA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Yes Ms Thabethe.
EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Mr Phala, you had indicated to me that you briefly want to address the Committee on the allegations that have been made about you. Can you briefly do so.
MR PHALA: Okay. May I go on?
MS THABETHE: Sure.
MR PHALA: This thing of being called a spy or "impimpi" was started as early as 1985. I was organising some donations from different companies. I am having evidence here, or I'm having a proof that I was organising those donations. And gradually when the school was improving, somewhere, somehow, I don't know, I was called a spy. I think the reason was because the people that were donating our schools those monies, they paid regular visits to our school. In other words, they were monitoring their monies.
The worst part of it, the money that we used erected three additional classroom, which was donated by American Embassy. We bought those materials from the shop which was owned by Mr Masha's father. And this thing went on, went on.
On the 3rd of March, in April 1986, people passed along our school there and later on somebody came to me and told me I was a spy and I tried to clarify myself, but indeed that was in vain. I couldn't get the gist of the matter. And from that day I was labelled as an "impimpi" and this continued until on the 16th of April 1986, the day they bombed my next-door house. And I do little investigations. I thought that those people they bombed the house because they were looking for me and they left. I counted them. I even saved those bombs.
Unfortunately, during the death of the mother to Mr Makwana, people threw away those bombs, those bottles. In other words, let me say those bombs. And from there people called, they called them Cosas, they came regularly to our school. On the 4th they closed our school, on 22 April the same year, '86, they closed our school indefinitely, saying that I am a spy and I could not explain.
What worries me, it seems those people donated our school some monies, when they came there it seems they were promoting, according to them they were promoting apartheid and then I was never called in a meeting that Mr Masha says, where he says they discussed this as I am an "impimpi" or a spy.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Phala. Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Was it white people that came to your school?
MR PHALA: I'm sorry?
CHAIRPERSON: Was it white people that came to your school?
MR PHALA: Yes, the owners of the monies that were donated to our school.
CHAIRPERSON: There was also an allegation that you were against the liberation movements.
MR PHALA: That one I don't know. To me it was just agreed, because I couldn't explain, but even if they said I'm an "impimpi" - I mean I was not aware that along the line I was called an "impimpi".
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, than you, Mr Phala. Mr Koopedi, have you got any questions?
MR KOOPEDI: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Phala, those were troubled times, you would agree.
MR PHALA: Sorry?
ADV BOSMAN: I say, those were troubled times when all this happened.
MR PHALA: Of course.
ADV BOSMAN: Yes. All I wanted to know is, I mean we realise how you feel today because it probably still affects you. Are you still at the same school?
MR PHALA: Ja, ja, I'm still at the same school.
ADV BOSMAN: And do you feel better about everything now?
MR PHALA: Well now I'm a little bit alright because this thing damaged me physically and mentally and even emotionally.
ADV BOSMAN: Yes, but now that you've had an opportunity publicly to air your feelings, do you feel okay in the community?
MR PHALA: Yes, I'm okay.
ADV BOSMAN: Are you comfortable in the community?
MR PHALA: Of course I'm okay. The community that I've serving was not against me, it was the community of Mr Masha who was against me and I don't know the reason why.
ADV BOSMAN: Yes, alright. No, I just wanted to ascertain whether you have overcome all the difficulties.
MR PHALA: No, I'm okay.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further questions?
MS THABETHE: No further questions, no further evidence.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Phala, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence that you wanted to present, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: I beg your pardon, Mr Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence that you wanted to present?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair. Just to add, I would request
the Committee to consider as well Mr Makwana as the victim for reparations because his property and his house was damaged as a result of the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that we can deal with. Mr Koopedi, have you got any submissions on the merits of the application?
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: A brief submission, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. It is my humble submission that this applicant before you has complied with the requirements of the Act, in terms of him being granted amnesty.
Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, may I state the obvious that this applicant came before you voluntarily, there was no pressure on him to have made this application. His application was purely in line with reconciliation. It is indeed very sad for any person to be branded as a spy or informer and also very bad for someone's house to be bombed and particularly for no reason.
However, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, I believe that it is this application that has in a certain sense, given Mr Phala an opportunity to explain, not only to us but to the nation or perhaps the entire world, that he was never a spy. It is this application that has assisted to clarify issues. It is my belief that this application also has also enabled Mr Makwana an opportunity to formally know why his house was bombed.
From the evidence given by Mr Phala here, I seem to clearly believe that he has corroborated more than anything else, the evidence of this applicant and I am therefore saying that it's my submission that this applicant has fully disclosed all material facts in this matter.
And again, Chairperson, there has not been any personal gain. And finally, that the political motive was to scare off what people thought would have been, who was a spy. And it is on those basis' that I would ask that this applicant be granted amnesty. Thank you, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Thabethe, any submissions?
MS THABETHE: No submissions, Mr Chair, I will leave it in the hands of the Committee to make a decision, thank you.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe. Yes, that concludes the evidence and the formal aspects of this application. We will consider the matter and we will formulate a decision on the application and we will notify all of the parties as soon as the decision is available in the matter. Under those circumstances the decision is reserved. You are excused and thanked, both of you for having come, the legal representatives, for having come forward and clarified what has happened. We have noted that there was no real compulsion that was bearing on the applicant. At the same time we've appreciated the input of Mr Phala and we trust that this would go some way towards resolving possibly this matter that was outstanding in that particular community. We thank you very much, you're excused.
Which is the next matter, Ms Thabethe? Is it the one that we partly dealt with yesterday?
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, it was supposed to be the matter of Khumalo and Madondo, but I haven't seen the applicants. They are coming from Boksburg Prison, they are not here.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, we're not sure if they've arrived?
MS THABETHE: They haven't. Oh, I'm being told that they are here. Maybe at this stage, Mr Chair, I would as for a short adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is Mr Koopedi appearing there?
MS THABETHE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so perhaps it's a good thing that we take a brief adjournment, to enable you to prepare that matter and so that we can dispose of that before we get to the other one which will take up most of the remaining time. So we'll stand down briefly and you must indicate to us when you are ready. We'll stand down.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
