ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, I just need to check whether we can proceed with the next amnesty application?
MR MOTEPE: Yes, we can proceed.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mr Sithole?
MS LOCKHAT: Mr Khumalo.
MR MOTEPE: That is correct. Can I call them? The applicant speaks Zulu as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this Mr Sithole?
MR MOTEPE: That is correct, it is Mr Sithole.
GODFREY B. SITHOLE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sithole. Mr Motepe? We do have an affidavit that you handed to us yesterday?
EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE: That is correct. Before we start Chairperson, the applicant has indicated to me that he needs to add some further information on the particular affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: You can lead him as much as you want, Mr Motepe.
MR MOTEPE: Mr Sithole, we have already filed a supplementary affidavit. You confirm the contents and the correctness thereof, is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, if we could mark this as Exhibit A.
MR MOTEPE: Thank you Chair. You also indicated to me this morning, that there is some information that you wanted included in this particular affidavit. Can you kindly explain what that information is, about the names that you forgot?
MR SITHOLE: I was saying that there are some other names that I forgot of some people, that is the information I was letting you aware of.
MR MOTEPE: Are those the people that were involved in the incidents referred to in this affidavit?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, they have not been included.
MR MOTEPE: But are they in relation to this incidents, were they with you when these incidents were committed, what is the situation?
MR SITHOLE: No, they were not present when this incident took place. These were people who were around.
MR MOTEPE: Can you explain what their relevance is then, why do you feel you should mention them?
MR SITHOLE: No, I was only informing you in the event that I am asked about them, because ...
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you tell us the names of those persons you want to mention?
MR SITHOLE: As I was saying, I have forgotten their names, that was one thing I was reminding him this morning.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But do you remember their names now?
MR SITHOLE: No, I don't.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you cannot give us any names?
MR SITHOLE: I cannot.
MR MOTEPE: Chairperson, perhaps we should leave it there, thank you. I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, Mr Sithole, you have also completed an application form and there is also a letter from yourself to the TRC in which it contains certain information relating to the incident, dated October 1997 and there is also a statement made by yourself, in the file, in the Bundle before us. Do you confirm the correctness of those documents that you submitted to the TRC?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. These incidents, you said you were not a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was that, you were not a member?
MS LOCKHAT: He was not a member of the Self Defence Unit. Did you see yourself as a supporter as you stated in your amnesty application form, a supporter of the ANC?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you attend any meetings relating to ANC activities or Self Defence Unit meetings or anything like that?
MR SITHOLE: No, our leaders were the ones attending such meetings.
MS LOCKHAT: But weren't there meetings where everybody could attend, the whole community for instance?
MR SITHOLE: No, the leaders of the SDU's and their seniors as well, will be the ones attending.
MS LOCKHAT: In 1993 you and Thami Khumalo hijacked this Mercedes Benz and you met people and you received money therefore, is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: And you said you got orders from people to do this? Is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: Can you just tell us, because you mention a whole lot of people's names in - can you tell us who gave you that specific order in that incident?
MR SITHOLE: The people who were giving orders to us was Ephraim Pitso, Stanley Ndingana.
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that name please Mr Sithole?
MR SITHOLE: Ephraim Pitso, Stanley Ndingana. And Mr Zongo, and Mr Zongo.
MS LOCKHAT: Wasn't Mr Ephraim Pitso your landlord at some stage?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, he was.
MS LOCKHAT: And Mr Stanley his neighbour?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, he was the neighbour, indeed.
MS LOCKHAT: And aren't they also in prison with you?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, I found them there already.
MS LOCKHAT: So are you saying that these people gave you the orders to commit this offence?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: Did they belong to any organisation?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, they are members of the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Did they hold any position there or office or rank or anything else?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, because they were in the senior management or the senior structures.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say the senior structures, you are talking about those structures as they existed in Katlehong at the time?
MR SITHOLE: No, that was in the district level, in Katlehong.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson. Did you, what were you deciding to do with the money that you got from this car hijacking?
MR SITHOLE: We would take the money to Mr Zongo, and he will then distribute it for the purchasing of the ammunition.
MS LOCKHAT: And who is this Mr Zongo?
MR SITHOLE: Mr Zongo is one of the leaders, or was one of the leaders.
MS LOCKHAT: Of what party?
MR SITHOLE: Of the ANC.
MS LOCKHAT: And how did you get into contact with Mr Zongo?
MR SITHOLE: I knew him through Ephraim and Mr Ndingana.
MS LOCKHAT: Just the people that had given you the money, the R10 000-00, you said it was given to you by one Mike and you mentioned some other white people as well, is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: But your fellow applicant, Mr Khumalo says that Mr Zongo showed you two black males from Maputo, they were unknown to you and, well they liaised that you got the money, so your stories don't really coincide?
MR SITHOLE: You see the two men are the ones that we have been introduced to by Mr Zongo, they are the ones also who took us to these white men where we left the vehicle or the car. They left subsequently, the following day, that is when we went there to fetch or collect the money, but in the absence of the men.
MS LOCKHAT: And these people that they mentioned from Maputo, is that an incorrect story or what?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, they are foreigners, but knew the other gentlemen, I think in connection with ammunitions and such things.
MS LOCKHAT: And the second incident, the 6th of December 1993, where did you obtain that car from?
MR SITHOLE: The incident relating to the 6th, I was not there, but the person who had come to get a statement from me, I informed him about it and he said there is no problem, he will sort it out.
CHAIRPERSON: That incident does not appear on the application form, is that correct, it is only the one of the 1st of December?
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I know, it is mentioned here, but - so I take it Mr Sithole, you are not applying for amnesty in respect of the incident that took place on the 6th of December?
MR SITHOLE: No, because I wasn't convicted for it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: And tell me, did you just do these hijackings to obtain and to sell the cars, or what was your main purpose for hijacking these cars?
MR SITHOLE: The intention was to get money so we may be able to buy ammunition, because of the situation that had prevailed at the time, violence and volatile, at the same time we felt we need to get more ammunition and to augment the weapons we have. Now, we felt obliged to go that direction.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, after the 1st of December or on the 1st of December, was that your first dealings with this person called Mike or had you done business with him before?
MR SITHOLE: No, it was the second time then.
CHAIRPERSON: Second time?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What does Mike do, does he run a second hand car shop or something like that? Who is he?
MR SITHOLE: I did not know Mike quite well, as I said that we were introduced to him by the two men from Mozambique. I was - he was a member of a Vehicle Squad, working in Benoni.
CHAIRPERSON: With the police?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say before this one for which you were arrested, the 1st of December, you had sold another motor vehicle to him before?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: For how much?
MR SITHOLE: R3 000-00.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And what did you do with the money?
MR SITHOLE: We took the money to Mr Zongo.
CHAIRPERSON: At the time that you were doing these dealings with Mike, did you know that he was a member of the Vehicle Squad in the police?
MR SITHOLE: No, I did not know.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, do you have any re-examination?
MR MOTEPE: I've got no re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager?
JUDGE DE JAGER: What would you have done if these people opposed your hijacking? Supposed they were not willing to hand over the keys or hand over the cars, what would you have done?
MR SITHOLE: Well, I really don't know, to be honest with you. We tried to plead with them until such time that he will agree to give us the keys.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But you didn't plead with him, you had a gun? Wasn't that so?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is the case, but I don't think we would have shot at him or them.
JUDGE DE JAGER: What was the purpose of having this gun?
MR SITHOLE: That was to intimidate mostly.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And do you want us to believe if they didn't cooperate, you would have turned away and you wouldn't have shot them?
CHAIRPERSON: They would have pleaded, they would have negotiated the hijack.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. Is that what you ...
MR SITHOLE: Yes, yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And if they wouldn't agree?
MR SITHOLE: We will try to chase him away if he does not cooperate with us.
JUDGE DE JAGER: How would you chase him away?
MR SITHOLE: We will tell him to go and run after him, so that we can disappear as well.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And if he wouldn't go, what would you do then?
MR SITHOLE: We will try our best, we will get him where we want him to be.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi? Why are Mr Pitso and Mr Ndingana in prison, do you know?
MR SITHOLE: No, I don't know, I don't know that much.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where Mr Zongo is?
MR SITHOLE: The last time I had heard, he was residing in Siluma View in Vosloorus.
CHAIRPERSON: So this money that you got from Mike, it was in cash, was it?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, it was cash.
CHAIRPERSON: R10 000, did you count it?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, we counted it.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you took that money and gave it over to Mr Zongo?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that you were arrested for this December the 1st, robbery?
MR SITHOLE: No, the one relating to the 1st of December, we were never arrested for it.
CHAIRPERSON: Which one were you convicted for?
MR SITHOLE: It was the 1st, but we were not arrested for that one, but we were arrested for the one of the 6th.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you were arrested for the 6th, and then it came out that there was also this. The 6th, was that some sort of trap situation?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And there you received R15 000-00?
CHAIRPERSON: He says - did you receive the - you said you weren't involved?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, we received it.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I can't quite understand on the one of the 6th, because in your evidence you said that you weren't involved in the robbery of the 6th, is that correct, but were you there when the money was received? If you could just tell us what the position is?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is the case because he came to us as well, because he was one of them, I knew, he came to us that we need to take the car and he had already consulted with Mr Zongo and took it to Mike. That is where we were arrested, on our way back.
CHAIRPERSON: I mean, this is quite a lot of money we are talking about, you have spoken about a robbery for R3 000-00, then on the 1st, there is one where you get R10 000-00, and now on the 6th, there is one where you get R15 000-00, that is a lot of ammunition? Were you getting orders to hijack every week?
MR SITHOLE: No, it was not happening weekly.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, from the 1st to the 6th, is less than a week. Did you get an order on both occasions, you or Khumalo got an order to effect a hijack to get money?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, we would receive orders to that effect, on the 1st and the 6th, that was the first of its kind, that it happened so close, the two incidents happened so close.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why these people should order you to indulge in car hijacking in order to get money and they should not ask members of the SDU to do that, because you were not a member of the SDU, you say you were just a supporter, you were not even a member of the ANC, why should they order you who weren't in one of the structures, if I could put it that way, to do this work for them, when they had SDU's and they had people who were involved in the protection of the community?
MR SITHOLE: As I said earlier on, as I was living in Pitso and a member as well, and I was part of the community's struggle. The reason why the SDU people were not around, it was because they were always occupied with patrolling at night, and we were not into that ourselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Motepe, do you have any questions arising? Sorry.
JUDGE DE JAGER: What did they give you for your trouble that you had taken and the risk that you had taken? Did they give you say R1 000-00 or some part of the money?
MR SITHOLE: No, we were not paid for that. We would be given money for transport purposes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Now, how much did they give you for transport purposes?
MR SITHOLE: It will be around R150-00.
JUDGE DE JAGER: On each occasion?
MR SITHOLE: Not on each occasion.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Even when you get R15 000-00, they are only giving you this peanuts of R150-00?
MR SITHOLE: No, the R15 000-00, we did not even get to use it, because we were arrested and the money was confiscated from us.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But what were you promised on that occasion?
MR SITHOLE: There was nothing that we were promised, because we did not even get to them on that day.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, do you have any questions arising? Sorry, Adv Sigodi wishes to put a question.
ADV SIGODI: This Mike who gave you the money, did he give evidence against you in your criminal trial, the undercover policeman?
MR SITHOLE: No, he did not do that.
ADV SIGODI: Do you know what his full names are?
MR SITHOLE: I know him as Sergeant Mike, I know him as Michael Sher.
ADV SIGODI: And do you know which Branch he worked from?
MR SITHOLE: He was in Benoni at the Hyper Square.
ADV SIGODI: Do you know how Mr Zongo had contacts with this Mike, or he had come to know this Mike? Do you know how Mike was identified as a person who had a potential to buy these hijacked cars?
MR SITHOLE: Mike did not know Mr Zongo. We knew Mike through the two Mozambique men. As to how they knew one another and Mr Zongo, I really don't know.
ADV SIGODI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Khumalo a member of the SDU? Thami Khumalo?
MR SITHOLE: No, I don't know, because we were not in the same area, from the same area.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Motepe?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE: Mr Sithole, besides this subsistence moneys for transport you received, this R150-00, was there any other reward that you received for your troubles?
MR SITHOLE: No.
MR MOTEPE: And can you tell us what the situation was like in the community at that particular time, was it a peaceful situation, why did you need this particular arms, what was happening at the time?
MR SITHOLE: At the time, there was this conflict between the hostel dwellers and the ANC people, the violence was rife at the time, because of the presence of the hostel in the area, the section that I resided in.
MR MOTEPE: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat, any questions arising?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, thank you, that concludes your testimony, Would this be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment, I see it is ten past eleven. Yes, we will now take the short tea adjournment.
MS LOCKHAT: All rise.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
