Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it's Wednesday the 10th of November 1999. We are continuing with the hearings of the Amnesty Committee, at JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as has been indicated on the record. We will be hearing this morning, the applications of T G Tholwe, amnesty reference AM1333/96 and A J M Motloung, amnesty reference AM1325/96.

I want the parties to put themselves on record. Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: I'm Advocate T A Makhubele, from the Pretoria Bar, representing the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Vilakazi?

MS VILAKAZI: For the Nkwane family, I'm Advocate L E Vilakazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I am Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Ms Makhubele, is there anything else you want to put on record, or do you want to present the evidence of your clients?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, Mr Chairman, before I start there is something which I wish to place on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MAKHUBELE: I've received instructions for two applicants, Tsietsi Gideon Tholwe and Andries Motloung, and there is an implicated person, John Mokirie Kekana, whom I've also consulted. He has received a notification and I've verified with - he has received a notification as if he is an applicant. I verified with Ms Mtanga and she informed me that the notice to him was issued by mistake, that he has not applied for amnesty and I don't what the position will be, whether he remains an implicated person or if he should be one of the applicants. He is here, I have already consulted with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well no, if he hasn't applied then he would be an interested party in the proceedings. So at this stage we only have the applications of Mr Tholwe and Mr Motloung before us.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will proceed first with the application of Tsietsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Tholwe?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one of the two is it? Alright. Mr Tholwe, just switch on your microphone. Just touch the red button there. Do you hear the interpretation on your headset?

MR THOLWE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Now you are going to have to stand to take the oath, so please just stand before you settle down. Give us your full names for the record.

GIDEON TSIETSI THOLWE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, now you may sit down. Come a bit closer to the mike. Move your seat in a bit. Yes, Ms Makhubele.

MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Chairman, I will just lead the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Tholwe, you are the applicant in this matter.

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: How old are you?

MR THOLWE: I'm 27 years old.

MS MAKHUBELE: Where do you reside?

MR THOLWE: Sorry?

MR LAX: Just hang on. Can you hear the interpretation?

INTERPRETER: It seems there's a problem with the receiver there.

MR LAX: Ian, just check the volume.

MS MAKHUBELE: Where do you reside, Mr Tholwe?

MR THOLWE: I stay in Fochsville, at the township known as Kokosi.

MS MAKHUBELE: Is that the place you grew up?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: How far did you go with your education?

MR THOLWE: In standard six.

MS MAKHUBELE: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I can't hear the interpretation.

MR LAX: You need to be on channel 3, if you want to hear the interpretation. Let me just check the volume. Can you hear now?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, I can.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MS MAKHUBELE: You said how far did you go with your education?

MR THOLWE: Up to standard six.

MS MAKHUBELE: When was this?

MR THOLWE: That was in 1986.

MS MAKHUBELE: On the 13th of March 1992, at Potchesfstroom, you were convicted of murder, is this correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: You were sentenced to 10 years, 3 years suspended for 5 years.

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: You were released on parole, is this correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: When was this?

MR THOLWE: I was released in 1996, on the 13th of March.

MS MAKHUBELE: It's in respect of this conviction that you are here today to apply for amnesty, is this correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: At some stage in your life you got involved in political activities, can you tell us when and what motivated you?

MR THOLWE: I started politics in 1990. There was no violence in Kokosi at that time. There were comrades from Kutsong who came to Kokosi and there was violence in Kutsong, because comrades were fighting against the vigilante groups. The comrades from Kutsong ran away from Kutsong to Kokosi and they asked help from us and then we accommodated them because they were our fellow comrades.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes. Your involvement there, what ultimately happened, which political organisation did you join?

MR THOLWE: I joined the ANC. When we launched the ANC at Kokosi, it was in 1990, we were helped by the comrades from Kutsong. They were the people who motivated us to launch the ANC branch in Kokosi because there was no other political organisations in Kokosi. That is when we started launching the ANC, in 1990.

MS MAKHUBELE: After you launched the ANC at Kokosi and you say that you helped the youth at Kutsong, what political situation then arose in your community, that's Kokosi? Because initially you say there was no politics in Kokosi.

MR THOLWE: Violence erupted after our President, that is Mr Nelson Mandela, was released from prison. We had arranged transport from Kokosi to FNB Stadium to meet President Mandela and the police from Fochsville started the violence. Fochsville was a very small township, so we had no chance at that time that we could go ahead with our political activities.

After the release of our President, violence started at Kokosi and the police were against the comrades. More especially we were the people who were the leaders of the community at Kokosi. We ran to Kutsong because we were not safe at our homes in Kokosi. After we ran to Kutsong we were accommodated there. We were not free at Kutsong, because there was also violence there. We had to hide ourselves. We stayed at a certain shack. We ultimately became victims of vigilante groups because we were helping the comrades from Kutsong.

MS MAKHUBELE: So ultimately your organisation was fighting with the police and the vigilante groups. What position were you holding in that organisation?

MR THOLWE: When we launched the organisation I did not have a position, I only had a position after some time when I was elected to serve in the Disciplinary Committee.

MS MAKHUBELE: The incident that led to your conviction was the killing of one, Fanie Nkwane, for which you are applying for amnesty today. Did you know Fanie Nkwane?

MR THOLWE: Yes, I did.

MS MAKHUBELE: How did you know him?

MR THOLWE: Before he joined the vigilante group he was a member of the ANC and he was one of the people who ran from Kutsong to Kokosi and we accommodated him at Kokosi. That's how I knew him.

MS MAKHUBELE: How did you know that he changed allegiances from ANC to vigilantes?

MR THOLWE: Other comrades who were from Kutsong who came to Fochsville gave us this information that Fanie Nkwane was no longer a comrade, he is now a member of the vigilante group, so we should be careful.

MS MAKHUBELE: Can you describe the events on the day Fanie Nkwane was killed, and your role.

MR THOLWE: Fanie was killed in 1991, it was on the 25th of January. I was contacted by the late Comrade Nororo, he was sent by John Kekana to come and fetch me. Comrade Nororo came to my place, but he did not find me, I was at the shop with other comrades. When I arrived at John Kekana's place he was there together with Andries Motloung and the late Thabang and Lucky Molefe.

The deceased was there and when I entered they were busy interrogating the deceased and I also joined them in interrogating him. I asked him whether he knew me and then said I am Tsietsi. I asked him about the rumours that we have heard that he has now joined the vigilante group in Kutsong. I asked him whether that is true. He did not hesitate and he told me openly that he was a vigilante and he's not one of those people who want to kill us.

There was another lady by the name of Marinkie. Before the deceased was captured this lady came to Kokosi. She was also from Kutsong. The deceased mentioned her name and thereafter he said there was a lady by the name Marinkie and she was sent by the vigilante to come and to spy on us and inform them of our hiding places.

Then we went to fetch that lady and she was asked questions about what we have been told by the deceased. She refused and she told us she didn't know anything about that. She also told us that the deceased came to Kokosi to get information about our hide-outs at Kokosi, because the deceased knew our homes where we lived, so he came to get more information about our hiding places so that he could call his vigilante members.

Our decision, a decision that we took was that because he was telling us the truth we decided that because he joined the vigilante group it is not possible for him to say he's not against us and for the fact that he knew our hiding places ...(intervention)

MS MAKHUBELE: Before you proceed, you said you were interrogating, who was doing the interrogation?

MR THOLWE: When I entered that shack those people that I found in the shack were the people who were interrogating him, asking him questions. At that stage the person who was busy asking him questions is the late Thabang, and then after Thabang, I also started asking him questions as well.

MS MAKHUBELE: So you say a decision was taken, by whom?

MR THOLWE: We took a collective decision that the deceased should be killed because we had already arrived at that decision. That was when we got the information that he belonged to the vigilante group. All of us as comrades, we decided that any vigilante member that we find in Kokosi, should be killed because it was also their intention to kill us.

So we took a collective decision that we are going to take him and kill him. We took him from John Kekana's place and then we went to the forest next to the river and then we started assaulting him and we threw him into the river.

MS MAKHUBELE: What did you do yourself?

MR THOLWE: I had an axe with me, so I hacked him with that axe.

MS MAKHUBELE: When you left him, or when you threw him in the river, was he still alive?

MR THOLWE: I cannot say with certainty whether he was still alive or not.

MS MAKHUBELE: As you indicated earlier on that you were a member of this ANC Youth League, do you know if killing people that are fighting against you, like vigilantes, was the policy of that organisation?

MR THOLWE: I had a different view that as ANC members, when we kill people we should burn them but by that time when we killed the deceased it was late, so we didn't have enough time to burn him, so we decided that we should throw him into the river so that no-one should know who killed him. The reason why the people didn't know that we killed him - we knew that the people will come and the other vigilante members will also come to attack us because they were not arming themselves with knives like we used to do, they were arming themselves with guns.

MS MAKHUBELE: What happened to this woman, Marinkie, the one you also interrogated?

MR THOLWE: Marinkie was released when we left with the deceased and then she went back to her place.

MS MAKHUBELE: You are here today to ask this Tribunal to forgive you, how do you feel about the killing of this person, Fanie Nkwane?

MR THOLWE: The way we knew Fanie Nkwane, the way we worked with him and in many instances he was the person who used to motivate us, we did not expect that Fanie Nkwane would leave the ANC and join the vigilante group. For me to kill Fanie Nkwane, it was not my intention to kill him I would say. The reason why I killed him was that he joined dangerous people, people who were working together with the police, so I had no choice. I knew that if I leave Fanie Nkwane it will be the same, even if I kill him it will be the same, so I decided also that Fanie Nkwane should be killed. I hacked him with my axe.

So today as I'm asking for forgiveness for what I did to Fanie Nkwane, I'm not happy about that, I'm not feeling well about that. Always in prison when I think where we come from with Fanie Nkwane, the way he used to help us, I felt that it would be important for me to come and express my feelings here before Fanie Nkwane's family, so that they could know how their child was killed.

MS MAKHUBELE: What can you tell them now? Any words you can say to the parents to express how you feel?

MR THOLWE: To his parents I would say, what happened really affected me because he used to be my friend before. For me to join politics was because of Fanie Nkwane. I will ask his parents that what happened, happened during the time when we had no choice, we had no other way to avoid those things that happened then. So I would ask them to forgive me for what I did. Yes, I agree that I did that, but now I regret for what I did.

MS MAKHUBELE: You are back in the community now, what are you doing for a living, or are you back to school?

MR THOLWE: I am back in the community. There is nothing that I am doing for a living because when I left school it was because of financial problems that I had then. I still have those problems even today. I've been unable to find any job since I was released from prison. I stay with my mother. I don't have a father, so my mother is married to another person. She's the only person who is helping me with food and other things.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Mr Tholwe. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the applicant's evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi, have you got any questions?

MS VILAKAZI: Honourable Chair, I have some questions, but before I go onto my questions, I'd like to put it on record that my instructions are that the Nkwane family is no opposed to the application as such, they are willing to reconcile, but they want the whole truth to be put on the table, they want to understand why their son had to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: So it's on that basis that I will be conducting my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Please go ahead.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Tsietsi, from what you have been saying I get the impression that you knew Fanie very well, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: When did you know him?

MR THOLWE: I knew Fanie late 1989, that was before we launched the ANC branch. He was one of the people who used to come to Fochsville, so we used to meet at places like shebeens and taverns etc.

MS VILAKAZI: In which location did you meet?

MR THOLWE: We used to meet at Kokosi.

MS VILAKAZI: So are you saying you met him at the tavern? The first time you saw Fanie was at a tavern, is that what you're saying?

MR THOLWE: It was at the tavern, but at that time at Fochsville there was no political activity. We were not friends before we were involved in politics. I only knew him as Fanie and he knew me as Tsietsi as well.

MS VILAKAZI: I don't seem to understand you well. You spoke about meeting him at a tavern and then you didn't know him politically. How did you get to know him, that's what I want to know.

MR THOLWE: There were other boys who lived in Mageza Street, so I knew those boys. Fanie used to visit those boys and those boys knew me as well.

MS VILAKAZI: So he visited them in Kokosi township, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: Fanie used to visit them at Kokosi.

MS VILAKAZI: Was he related to those boys? Do you know if he was related to them?

MR THOLWE: Well I cannot say with certainty whether they were relatives, but he used to come to the township and he used to visit those boys.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. But then you met him around 1989, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Then at some stage you became close to him, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: We became friends when we were involved in politics.

MS VILAKAZI: So it's politics which brought you closer together?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: You have testified that you learnt later that he had joined a vigilante group, when was that? In which year was that?

MR THOLWE: That is the vigilante group in Kutsong.

MS VILAKAZI: My question is in which year was that, in which year did you learn that Fanie had joined a vigilante group?

MR THOLWE: I learnt that in 1990.

MS VILAKAZI: Can you remember the month, is it possible for you to remember which month it was?

MR THOLWE: I do not remember the month, but it was in the late 1990.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay, but then the killing happened in 1991, is that correct? In January 1991.

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: And it was at the end of January 1991, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: So it means that some time passed between the time when you learnt that he had joined a vigilante group and the date of the killing, is that correct?

MV THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Now as a person that you've been close to, what attempts did you make to try and talk to him to dissuade him from his involvement with the vigilante groups?

MR THOLWE: After learning that he has joined the vigilante group he was no longer a regular visitor at Kokosi and then he went to Kutsong. We could no longer see each other as we used to before.

MS VILAKAZI: Do you mean that you lost contact with him?

MR THOLWE: Yes, I would say so.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. You've also testified that at some stage when violence erupted in Kokosi you fled the township and you went to stay in Kutsong, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: When was that?

MR THOLWE: When we fled to Kutsong, I would say it was around April. That is when we ran to Kutsong for the first time because white people did not allow us to stay in Fochsville, so we fled to Kutsong.

MS VILAKAZI: You said April, which year was that?

MR THOLWE: That is 1990.

MS VILAKAZI: And then how long did you stay in Kutsong?

MR THOLWE: We did not finish a week in Kutsong. I would say we stayed there three to four days because we were not comfortable in Kutsong.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you ever return to Kutsong at a later stage?

MR THOLWE: After that I went to Kutsong for the second time because we were fleeing to Kutsong because of violence in Kokosi.

MS VILAKAZI: When was that and how long did you stay, in that period?

MR THOLWE: We fled to Kutsong. I do not recall the month, but it was on Friday when we fled to Kutsong and then we came back on Sunday.

MS VILAKAZI: So you're saying that your stay in Kutsong was very short, is that correct? In both instances when you fled to Kutsong it was very short?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: At that time did you have any contact with Fanie?

MR THOLWE: I was unable to meet Fanie at those instances. I only met him when we fled to Kutsong for the first time. That was before he joined the vigilante group.

MS VILAKAZI: But now, I just want to understand clearly. You were fleeing from Kutsong and you had this - from Kokosi, and you had this comrade called Fanie, who you were close to, why did you not attempt to - and you were not comfortable where you were accommodated, why did you not contact Fanie to accommodate you? Because as a comrade he would have been willing to do so.

MR THOLWE: Where we used to stay at that squatter camp in Kutsong, we hid ourselves in a shack, so we were many in that shack, so it was not easy for Fanie to take me to his place because he was also not staying at his place because he was wanted as well.

MS VILAKAZI: But how do you know that he was not staying at his place, because you have said that you lost contact with him?

MR THOLWE: Your question was that the first time when we fled to Kutsong, were we not meeting with Fanie to accommodate us, so what I'm saying is that for the first time when we fled to Kutsong we met Fanie and I knew where he stayed and I was sure that he was not staying at his place and most of the time he(?) used to stay at the squatter camp.

MS VILAKAZI: You still haven't answered my question. You have said earlier on that you had lost contact with Fanie, so at the time when you went to Kutsong, my question was, why did you not make attempts to contact Fanie? You have not answered that question.

MR LAX: Sorry, Ms Vilakazi, he did in fact qualify his answer to say that on the first time he fled there, Fanie was not yet a vigilante and he said that he only lost contact with him after he became a vigilante. So there might be some misunderstanding there, maybe you can clear that up first. That was his testimony.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay, maybe I should rephrase my question.

When you fled to Kutsong the first time, Fanie was not yet a vigilante. That is what you said, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you try to contact him to arrange for him to accommodate you?

MR THOLWE: When we fled to Kutsong for the first time, he was at Kutsong, so we met him at the place where they used to hide.

MS VILAKAZI: So you did have contact with him.

MR THOLWE: When we fled to Kutsong, Fanie didn't know that we would arrive at Kutsong. We left Fochsville to Kutsong. He did not know, and that's when we met him there. Because he did not expect us, we did not talk about the accommodation. We stayed in a shack. The ANC Youth League used to stay in the squatter camp.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay, let's leave that for a while. On the day of the murder, do you remember what day it was, what day in the week it was?

MR THOLWE: You mean the day of the killing? It was on Friday.

MS VILAKAZI: Where did you get Fanie? The killing happened in Kokosi - let's put the record straight, the killing happened in Kokosi, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: So where did you get hold of Fanie?

MR THOLWE: He was brought by John Kekana. When I asked him where he got Fanie, he said to me he met him at Kijima Street and then he took him to his place. John Kekana also stayed in Kijima Street. So he took him to his shack and then he sent Nororo to my place to call me.

MS VILAKAZI: So at that time did you know what Nororo was calling you for?

MR THOLWE: Nororo said to me, and then he said Seun wants to see me, he is with Fanie at his shack.

MS VILAKAZI: Where did the interrogation take place?

MR THOLWE: We were in the shack, Mr Kekana's shack.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. You are saying that Fanie was a member of a vigilante group, now I'm putting it to you that according to my instructions he was never involved with any other political organisation except the ANC. What is your comment?

MR THOLWE: The way you put it when you say he was not a member of the vigilante group, he was only the member of the ANC, I would dispute that because Fanie accepted that he was a member of the vigilante group, but he was not intending to kill us.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm also putting it to you that you were friends, it is confirmed that you and Fanie were friends, so you knew each other very well and that Fanie never fled from his home, he only went to visit his grandmother in Fochsville and that is where you collected him on the day of the killing. What is your comment?

MR THOLWE: I'm unable to answer that because I found the deceased at John Kekana's place. When John Kekana went to fetch him I wasn't present.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm also putting it to you that it is strange that a person who has been friends with Fanie, as you claim and as it is confirmed, that you would be ready to believe that he has joined a vigilante group and make no effort whatsoever to persuade him to rejoin the ANC, more specifically because of the fact that he was the one who persuaded you to join the ANC in the first place. What is your comment?

MR THOLWE: I was unable to persuade Fanie to rejoin the ANC because he was already a member of the vigilante group. If we had tried to persuade him to rejoin the ANC, I would not be sure that when we release him he'll go back to the vigilante group and tell them about us or whether he will understand when we persuade him to rejoin the ANC. So we were not sure about that, that is why we ended up taking that decision that we took, that he should be killed.

MS VILAKAZI: No, I'm not talking about the other members of the group, I'm talking about you specifically as a friend to Fanie, tlat you did not make any effort to persuade him to rejoin the ANC, and that is very strange.

MR THOLWE: I did not take any initiative to persuade him. That is because the vigilante's were very dangerous. I did not trust that even if I could take those initiatives to persuade him to rejoin the ANC, what would happen to me.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you that you did not make any effort to talk to Fanie because you knew that he was an ANC member and not a member of the vigilante group.

MR THOLWE: What made me believe that he was a vigilante was because when I asked him the question, when I asked him why he has left the ANC to join the vigilante group, he said to me "I am a member of the vigilante group, but I'm not against you". That is the Kokosi comrades. So I did not trust what he said begause he could not be a member of the vigilante group and at the same time claim that he is not intending to attack us. And we had already heard what he said, that the vigilantes had sent Marinkie to come and spy on us. We also heard again from Marinkie that he was sent to come and get information about us and take it back to the vigilante group.

MS VILAKAZI: Now how well did you know this Marinkie?

MR THOLWE: She used to visit in Kijima Street and that place where she used to visit is not far away from my place. We used to stay in four-roomed houses. Where she stayed she stayed - we were only separated by one four-roomed house. I would say it can be five metres from my home to where she used to visit.

MS VILAKAZI: Was Marinkie politically active?

MR THOLWE: She was a lady - according to the deceased, Marinkie was also a member of the vigilante group, she was used by the vigilante group as a spy for them. She would gather information about our hide-out and then she would take that information and take it back to the members of the vigilante groups.

MS VILAKAZI: So the only information you have about Marinkie's political affiliation is what you were told by the deceased, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: And you believed the deceased, is that correct?

MR THOLWE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Now if you believed the deceased, why did you release Marinkie and kill the deceased? More so because one, you believed the deceased when he said that she belonged to a vigilante group and therefore your perception was that members of the vigilante group are a threat to yourselves, and secondly, you did not believe the deceased when he said he did not want to kill you, you were not among the people that he wanted to kill despite the fact that he's also in a vigilante group. So why did you release Marinkie?

MR THOLWE: The way the deceased told us about Marinkie, both of them, the deceased and Marinkie gave us different explanations and Marinkie was stressing the fact that the deceased was a member of the vigilante group and she was not sent by that group to spy on us. They were arguing against each other and I decided that what Fanie was saying, he was just not telling us the truth when he said he was a vigilante, but he was not against us. So I thought that he just wanted to escape, that's why we released Marinkie.

MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I've got one question.

Mr Tholwe, what political affiliation was this vigilante group, do you know?

MR THOLWE: This vigilante group was not linked to any political organisation as far as I know.

MS MTANGA: According to page 1 of your application, paragraph 9A(1), you indicated that you were convicted for murdering an Azanian Student Organisation comrade. Can you explain why did you write that if the vigilante group did not belong to any political organisation? Why did you write that kind of information?

MR THOLWE: I think it is because when I made this application in Potchefstroom, there was somebody who was helping me, so we used to refer to this vigilante group as AmaZimzim, because we used to criticise each other, ourselves and Azanian organisations. So those people who belonged to such organisations, we referred to them as AmaZimzim. So even the deceased's group before we knew that they were a vigilante group, we used to refer to them as AmaZimzim. It was after we have found that they were vigilante and not AmaZimzim, and then I was just trying to say it was the same thing. When they were called AmaZimzim, I thought that it's an organisation.

MS MTANGA: So are you saying today that the vigilantes were not affiliated to the Azanian Students Organisation, which was at that time called AmaZimzim?

MR THOLWE: No, they were not linked to that.

MS MTANGA: At what point did you believe that the vigilantes were AmaZimzim, or were affiliated to the Azanian Students Organisation?

MR THOLWE: The way I know Kutsong, I don't remember hearing that there was an Azanian organisation there.

MS MTANGA: Did you differentiate between the Azanian Students Organisation and AmaZimzim? Was there a difference, as far as you understood it?

MR THOLWE: Can you please repeat your question.

MS MTANGA: I'm asking you, in your understanding of the situation then, wes there a difference between the Azanian Students Organisation and AmaZimzim? Because you are saying to me, at Fochsville the Azanian Students Organisation did not exist, but you were referring to the vigilantes as AmaZimzim. So I'm asking you, did you appreciate that there was, was there a difference in your understand, of the AmaZimzim and the Azanian Students Organisation? Were they one thing or were they different?

MR THOLWE: There was a difference. There was a difference because the reason why they were called AmaZimzim according to me, is because they were against the ANC and there was nothing that showed they belonged to an organisation because they were working hand-in-hand with the police, so we did not view them as a political party. They were working with the police, they were all against the ANC. It was a group that was formed to be against the ANC.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Panel?

MR LAX: No questions, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just a minute.

MR SIBANYONI: What were their ages, this group you are talking about?

MR THOLWE: Their ages varied, there were also adults in that group.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the majority, was the majority youth or adults?

MR THOLWE: The majority were youth.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MS MAKHUBELE: None, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Tholwe, you are excused. Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you're calling Mr Motloung.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, Mr Chairman.