Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makola. Is he here?

MS MTANGA: Yes, he is Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And who represents him?

MS MTANGA: Adv Makhubele.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Makhubele. I've seen her somewhere there. Yes, there she is. The next matter that we will be attending to is the application of Mr V Z Makola, amnesty reference 7505/97.

The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. For the applicant is Adv Makhubele. Ms Vilakazi, I assume you appear for the victims?

MS VILAKAZI: I appear for the family of Benedict Modikwa.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, say again.

MS VILAKAZI: I appear for the family of Benedict Modikwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. And then the Leader of Evidence is Ms Mtanga. Are there any other victims, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, the other victims were notified but they have not attended the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Have they not come forward.

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson, they've not come forward.

CHAIRPERSON: They've been formally notified?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The only victim that is responded is Benedict Modikwa.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, Ms Makhubele, is there anything that you want to put on record, or do you want your client to take the oath?

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I want my client to take the oath. I will lead him in his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Makola, can you hear the interpretation? You can hear that. Can you please switch on the microphone and stand. Are you full names Vusi Zakariah Makola?

VUSI ZAKARIAH MAKOLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can sit down. Just sit a bit more closer to this microphone, go a bit forward. Yes, Ms Makhubele.

EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Makola, you are the applicant in this matter.

MR MAKOLA: Yes.

MS MAKHUBELE: How old are you?

MR MAKOLA: 25 years.

MS MAKHUBELE: Where do you stay?

MR MAKOLA: Vosloorus township.

MS MAKHUBELE: During 19 - rather, before I get there, how far did you go with your education?

MR MAKOLA: Standard two.

MS MAKHUBELE: When did you leave school?

MR MAKOLA: 1988.

MS MAKHUBELE: During 1993, you were convicted of three murders and an attempt on murder as well as possession of firearms and ammunition, is this correct?

MR MAKOLA: Yes.

MS MAKHUBELE: Which court convicted you?

MR MAKOLA: The Supreme court.

MS MAKHUBELE: Where?

MR MAKOLA: In Johannesburg.

MS MAKHUBELE: What's your sentence on this?

MR MAKOLA: 36 years.

MS MAKHUBELE: You are currently serving this sentence at Leeukop Prison.

MR MAKOLA: Yes.

MS MAKHUBELE: It's in respect of these convictions that you are here today to apply for amnesty.

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: The first conviction related to the murder of one, Humphrey Khumalo, at Vosloorus.

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you know him?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I knew him by seeing him.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know if he belonged to any political organisation?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I do.

MS MAKHUBELE: Which one?

MR MAKOLA: He was a member of the IFP Youth Brigade.

MS MAKHUBELE: At the time of his killing, were you a member of any political organisation, which one if so?

MR MAKOLA: I was a member of the ANC.

MS MAKHUBELE: Were you a card-carrying member?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, that's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you have any position in the ANC structure at Vosloorus?

MR MAKOLA: No.

MS MAKHUBELE: Other than being a member of the ANC, were you a member of any other organisation that was aligned to the ANC?

MR MAKOLA: I was a member of the SDU.

MS MAKHUBELE: What is SDU?

MR MAKOLA: That's Self Protection Unit.

MS MAKHUBELE: Or Defence Unit?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, that's correct, Self Defence Unit.

MS MAKHUBELE: Since when?

MR MAKOLA: From 1992.

MS MAKHUBELE: What was the structure of this Self Defence Unit? Who was your Commander?

MR MAKOLA: My Commander was killed in 1992, on the 7th of July. His name was George Skamora Machel. After his death we received our instructions from Mr Makudela, whom we also referred to as Mr Mandela.

MS MAKHUBELE: Can you describe the political situation at Vosloorus during this period, specifically with reference to the first incident, the death of Humphrey Khumalo.

MR MAKOLA: There was a division in Vosloorus, there were two sides. There was a section belonging to the IFP and the other section belonged to the ANC. In this IFP section it was not easy for a member of the ANC to go there maybe wearing an ANC T-shirt or if they knew that you are a member of the ANC.

Even in the Sotho section it wouldn't be easy to enter that area if you wore an IFP T-shirt or a National Party T-shirt or any organisation that was against the ANC. It would be difficult for you to enter that section, that is Basotho section.

MS MAKHUBELE: In most townships there were hostels, what was the position in Vosloorus, was there a hostel?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, there were two hostels. There was a hostel belonging to Basotho and the other one belonged to AmaZulu. In this Zulu hostel, that's where I shot Humphrey, though I have forgotten his surname. I shot him at Dubazana Street, not exactly inside the hostel.

MS MAKHUBELE: Okay, let's go directly to the actual killing of Humphrey, you said you knew him. On the day of his death, where did you meet him and what happened?

MR MAKOLA: I met Humphrey at Dubazana Street. We went to Dubazana Street because we were on our way to Mr Makhubela's place and there was another comrade that we went to collect at Dube Street, so we were forced to use Dubazana Street. That's how we entered Dubazana Street.

MS MAKHUBELE: Then when you met him, what happened?

MR MAKOLA: From that house that we had visited, I met them outside. I would say that they were waiting for me because when I appeared, he said to me "Yes, Comrade Chisa?" When he said that, I said to him "If you don't want to greet me, please do not talk to me". While I was still talking to him, those who were in his company tried to attack me with knives. I was concentrating on Humphrey. When he put his hand on his waist I thought that he had a gun.

Among these people who were in my company I was the only person who was armed with a 3.65 gun. When he put his hand on his waist, I took out my firearm and then he said to me I shouldn't scare him with a toy. When he said that, I shot once at his chest. He came towards me and then I shot him for the second time and that is when he kneeled down. Then I went away. We ran out of that section because we were really in a difficult situation in that area.

MS MAKHUBELE: In your trial evidence was led to the effect that you shot him because he called you "Comrade Chisa". What do you say to this?

MR MAKOLA: I am a normal person, I don't think when a person referred to me as Comrade Chisa it's something that can make me to shoot him for that because I don't think that is the reason that made me to shoot at this man and kill him.

MS MAKHUBELE: So it's your evidence here now that the reason you shot him is because as an IFP person, and you were at an IFP territory, when the deceased and his friends met you they tried to attack you. Is this what you are saying?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Isn't it that in fact he did call you Comrade Chisa?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, he used that name, but even though he used that name that was not the reason why I shot him. Because when he used that name I did not take out my gun. I only took out my gun when I realised that his friends were drawing their knives and he was trying to reach for his gun in his waist. That is when I took out my gun, because I realised that he was armed with a gun.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Ms Makhubele.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you.

Had you ever had a quarrel with him, with Humphrey?

MR MAKOLA: The quarrel that we had I would say it was not a quarrel between myself and him as individuals. The only conflict between myself and him was that the IFP youth and the ANC youth on the 21st of March 1992, if I recall well, we were at the shopping centre on our way to Boipatong or Whiteville, I don't recall correctly, they were on their way to fetch their members at the women's hostel, at Mamasesulu Hostel, that is a women's hostel, they were going to fetch their members at the women's hostel so they were passing by where we were and an argument erupted between us and them, but it was never a serious thing because the police were there. At that instance Humphrey was there and he was the person who was facing me. I was talking to him. That is the quarrel that I had with him before.

MS MAKHUBELE: Would you say his death was part of the on-going violence between your organisation, that is the Self Defence Units under the ANC, and the IFP Youth League?

MR MAKOLA: That is correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: Let us go to the second incident, the death of Siphiwe Mupte and the attempt on Abraham Walter Magama Ndo. Do you recall this incident?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I do remember, it happened on the 2nd of February 1993.

MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell us what happened and the circumstances under which the first one died and the other was injured.

MR MAKOLA: On the second of February, it was around half past nine to 10pm at night. I was at Angola Section. I was on my way with my girlfriend, I was accompanying her to her place. As we were on our way we were passing the bar known as Fountain Bottle Store, which is near her place. We stood there for some time, then I said to her "I must go back because it's already at night".

While I was still accompanying her some people appeared from the dark and then when they appeared they said "These are the people that we are looking for". And then after uttering those words I heard gunshots. So I immediately knew that these are the people who were coming to kill me because I knew that I was wanted by the IFP.

There was a person known as KK who was an IFP hitman who wanted to kill me. So when they said "It's him", I heard a gunshot. I had my gun with me, I shot once and they ran away, the two of them. I didn't see that I had indeed shot one of them, but when I was shooting I could hear that I had shot something, but I couldn't see whether I had shot a person or not. I didn't shoot straight because as I was trying to reach for my gun I was throwing my arm. I thought that maybe I have shot the wall.

Then I took my girlfriend to her home and I said to her "Maybe there is something that is going to happen". On my return - because I was not happy about this. I did not know whether I had shot somebody and I didn't know this person.

The following day in the morning I tried to go back to that place to see if there is something that has happened there. On my way I was a little distance from that place, I saw policemen. I could see that they were taking the corpse there and then I returned, I went back.

MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell us why you were always armed?

MR MAKOLA: The reason why I was always armed is because I was involved in the struggle and when this conflict between the ANC and IFP started in 1990, I became the IFP target and I ended up being on their hit-list. I was a well-known comrade in that township. They knew me as Comrade Vusi. Every time when we were going to attack the hostel I was always in the front because I was at one stage shot at the hostel. So my life was in danger. That is why I was always armed with my gun.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you know Siphiwe Mapute, the deceased in the second incident? His other name I think is Zakariah. Did you know him, the person who died on the second incident? Zakariah Mapute. Rather let me put it this way, did you know or see who the people were that you shot at in the second incident, that is on the 2nd of February 1993?

MR MAKOLA: I did not see those people.

MS MAKHUBELE: Ultimately you heard who those people were, do you know them?

MR MAKOLA: No, I do not know them at all. I do not know them.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you receive any information as to whether they belonged to any political organisation?

MR MAKOLA: I cannot say that for certainty, that in which organisation they belonged.

MS MAKHUBELE: The last incident, the death of Benedict Modikwa, did you know him?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I knew him.

MS MAKHUBELE: How did you know him?

MR MAKOLA: We lived in the same street. He lived in the sixth house from my home. I used to see him while I was still a young boy. We used to play at his home.

MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell us about his death and your involvement.

MR MAKOLA: On the 7th of March, in 1993, I was given an order from Comrade Makhubele. It was an order that I should go and eliminate this person because he worked in cahoots with the hit-squad and the Internal Stability Unit Police, and Sidwell Mofokeng who was also a councillor at that time. When receiving that order on the 7th - because I was also given a gun, a 9mm Parabellum, I was also given eight bullets in the 9mm. On that day of the 7th, it was on Sunday, I went to Mogako Street at about between seven and eight.

When I arrived there, because I was going to eliminate my target, but when I arrived there the situation there would not allow me to shoot him at that place where I found him because he was in the company of Xapsie. There was also an allegation that he was also working with Xapsie. They were standing outside the yard.

There were people who were sitting next to the electric box and the third house from there, there is a tavern. There were many people at that tavern, so I realised that the situation would not allow me to carry out this target and then other people may retaliate and then I will end up shooting innocent people as well. So I postponed that mission for that day, but I did not go back to Comrade Makhubele to tell him that I did not carry out that mission because of those reasons. What I did, I went to my base where I used to stay, that is at Angola Section.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you ultimately go back to finish your mission, and when?

MR MAKOLA: I went back on Monday. I arrived at Mogako Street at about - that was on the 8th of March. I arrived at Mogako Street at around half past three because on that day I had my wristwatch as well. The reason why I arrived there at half past three was that Benedict did not have an exact time that he would arrive at his home, sometimes he would arrive at 3 o'clock, sometimes he would arrive at 4 or 6 o'clock. That is why I decided to go there earlier.

When I arrived I went to his next door in the same street, Mogako Street. I was with Thabiso Mohapi, Mike, I do not recall others, but we were not so many ...(intervention)

MS MAKHUBELE: You were waiting for Benedict to arrive home.

MR MAKOLA: I was waiting for Benedict. These other people did not know about my mission, I didn't tell them about my mission.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes?

MR MAKOLA: When I arrived there I went to his next door at the back of the house. Whilst sitting there, Mohapi and Thabiso and the others would go to Moreme's place to get some peaches and then we'll eat those peaches at that place. Because I was not drinking at that time, I bought myself a cold drink. Thabiso and the others were drinking ...(intervention)

MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Makola, can you please come to the matter. You were waiting for Benedict at his neighbour's place, did he ultimately come home? What did you do to him? Can we just get to the matter and not go about the bush please.

MR MAKOLA: I waited for Benedict. At about twenty five to five in the afternoon he arrived. He was from work. He went inside the house and at that stage we were still sitting at next door and they called Mohapi because they were sending Mohapi at Benedict's place for him to go and buy some beer.

Mohapi went there, he bought some beer and he came back. When he came back and he came to sit with us, I asked him about Remi. Because he didn't know that I was up to something he thought that maybe there is something that Remi is doing. He said to me Remi is with his girlfriend at that home. Then I realised that will be a mistake because is I go there and shoot him he can easily hide with his girlfriend. Whilst sitting there Remi appeared ...(intervention)

MS MAKHUBELE: You keep on saying Remi, Remi. Remi, are you referring to Benedict, the deceased?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, when I say Remi I'm referring to Benedict. That is the name that I knew him by. I only learnt of Benedict's name in court.

MS MAKHUBELE: Okay. So he came out of the house, what did you do?

MR MAKOLA: He went to the gate, he was eating some peaches. While he was still standing there I could see him from where I was sitting, he could also see me. I stood up, then I realised that those people who were sitting with me were not aware what I was going to do. Then I went out of the gate because it was alleged that you would not be able to shoot Remi. Then I told myself, if I try to shoot him and I'm unable to do that, I will see when that happens.

I came near him and then I shot him once and then when I shot him for the second time, he tried to run into the yard and then I started shooting him again, running after him. Then he fell on the stoep and then I went near him. I wanted to shoot him at the back of his head and that is when he tried to grab me. At that time I was only left with one bullet and then I shot him with that bullet on the head. So I don't know whether that bullet stuck in his head. Thereafter I had no bullets and then I ran away.

While I was still running I saw his mother and his mother screamed and then she said to me "Vusi, we will get you because you killed my son". Then I ran away. That's how it happened.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did Makhubele tell you why Benedict had to be killed?

MR MAKOLA: When he was giving me orders he told me that we should kill Benedict because he was the member of the hit-squad and he was also an informer.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you report back to Makhubele after accomplishing your mission?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I did report to him.

MS MAKHUBELE: What happened to the firearm that Makhubele gave you?

MR MAKOLA: That day I went to report to him I gave him back that gun, then I told him that I have fulfilled the mission and then I gave him the gun back.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know if Benedict belonged to any political organisation?

MR MAKOLA: I cannot say that with certainty. I don't know whether he belonged to a particular organisation.

MS MAKHUBELE: You mentioned that he was working with Sidwell Mofokeng and the Internal Stability Unit. Was there a problem between your organisation and these particular people that you mentioned and the Internal Stability Unit?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, there was a problem, because Sidwell Mofokeng was a councillor at Vosloorus and the Internal Stability Unit were the police who were harassing us and they used to kill comrades in the township, so they did not like the comrades and the members of the ANC.

MS MAKHUBELE: Any particular act that Benedict did against you as comrades?

MR MAKOLA: Personally I never had a grudge with him, he never did anything to me.

MS MAKHUBELE: The organisation?

MR MAKOLA: Referring to the organisation I would say he participated in killing the comrades because he was always in the company of Sidwell, killing the comrades.

MS MAKHUBELE: And particular person you know or remember who was killed by these particular persons, Benedict included?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, there is such a person, that is George Skamora Machel and his mother, on the same day.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did Makhubele give you anything as a reward for having killed Benedict?

MR MAKOLA: No, he did not give me anything and I was not expecting anything from him.

MS MAKHUBELE: The death of the three people that you are applying for amnesty for now, how do you feel about them, even those that you say you never knew them, that is in the second incident of the 2nd of February 1993?

MR MAKOLA: When I committed these offences I did not see myself as doing something wrong because I thought that I was defending the community, I was also defending the leadership of my organisation, but as the time went by I realised that we need to reconcile to be together and forget about the past.

It is very painful to me and I'm hurt by those incidents, because I know that I have killed somebody. I never believe that one day I will kill somebody. I know that even the parents of Benedict Modikwa and others were hurt by what I did. They did not even believe that it's me who did what I did then.

I regret for what I did and I would love to ask for forgiveness from them, not only because I've come here or maybe I'm proud of what I did, I'm not proud of what I did. I am prepared to reveal everything that I know. I know that it's going to be difficult for them to accept because this was very painful to them. I ask for forgiveness from them.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Makola. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the applicant's evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Ms Vilakazi, any questions?

MS VILAKAZI: Yes, I have questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Mr Makola, when you applied for amnesty did you complete any forms?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you complete them personally or were they completed by somebody else on your behalf?

MR MAKOLA: I was helped by somebody.

MS VILAKAZI: Who was writing?

MR MAKOLA: I was assisted by the prison police in Pretoria.

MS VILAKAZI: After writing what you told him did he read it back to you?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, he did.

MS VILAKAZI: Were you satisfied that he wrote everything that you told him?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, on that day I was satisfied because what he was reading to me was what I told him.

MS VILAKAZI: I want to refer you to your application form, it was page 2 on the bundle. I will ask your legal representative to show it to you. Under C(ii) the information required is the occupations and addresses of the victims. It says

"Ramodikwe was an informer of Internal Stability. The address I didn't know."

Is that what you told the policeman to write?

MR MAKOLA: I remember that question. I did not know Ramodikwe's address then, then I told him to contact the Vosloorus Police Station because they were handling the case, obviously they would know the address.

MS VILAKAZI: But how would you not know the address because you have given evidence that you stayed in the same street and you used to play at Benedict's home?

MR MAKOLA: When I say I did not know the address, even today I do not know his address. I cannot say I know his address really.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay, let us focus on your trial. When was your trial?

MR MAKOLA: I was arrested on the 4th of May 1993 and I was sentenced on the 10th of August 1994.

MS VILAKAZI: Did the trial take place in 1994?

MR MAKOLA: It started in 1993 until 1994, on the day when I was sentenced.

MS VILAKAZI: At your trial you denied ever having killed Benedict, why was it so?

MR MAKOLA: I believe that you understand the situation before 1994. The then government was the oppressive government. Even the police of that time, I did not trust those police, even the court itself, so I thought that if I accept what I did, because Remi was waiting with them, it would be easy for them to increase my sentence. I did not want to spend my whole life in prison, that is why I did not want to accept everything or tell everything.

MS VILAKAZI: Are you saying that you lied at your trial?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I do accept that I did lie.

MS VILAKAZI: But then your trial took place in 1994 when the new government was already in place, so what is your excuse for having lied to the court?

MR MAKOLA: When you talk of the new government in 1994, I won't dispute that, but those people who were in control during the apartheid time were still there, they were still in control, they were still judges. They still had the powers and they could use those powers because they knew that they were using them for their last chance. They could easily send me to prison for life. They could use that last chance.

MS VILAKAZI: So I assume that you wouldn't even want those judges to know that you had anything to do with the ANC, is that correct?

MR MAKOLA: I would not say I did not want them to know that I was linked to ANC, I did not want the judges to know that I have killed and the reasons why I have killed because I did not know the reasons.

MS VILAKAZI: Yes, but you were saying the judges would use any opportunity to send you to prison for a long time, so I'm saying to you that surely you wouldn't even want them to know that you are a member of the ANC. Because if they knew that you were in any way connected with the ANC, that would be another reason why they would send you to prison for a long time.

MR MAKOLA: They did not ask me whether I belonged to any political organisation. My membership with the ANC, I did not hide that in court.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. In your trial some reference was made to you having been in Tanzania at some stage in your life, is that correct?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Were you trained in Tanzania?

MR MAKOLA: No.

MS VILAKAZI: So you did not have any military training?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. In your evidence you referred to the fact that you had information that there were some allegations that the gun would always jam if somebody would try to kill Benedict, did I hear you correctly?

MR MAKOLA: May you please repeat that question again.

MS VILAKAZI: When you gave evidence today you said that there were some allegations that Benedict was a difficult person to shoot, that a gun would jam if one tried to shoot him, did I hear you correctly?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, that's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: So you shot at him because you wanted to prove that it is possible for him to be shot, is that not your case?

MR MAKOLA: Can you please repeat that question.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm saying you shot at him to prove that it is not impossible for him to be shot.

MR MAKOLA: I did not shoot him to prove that he can be shot, I shot him because I received the order that he should be eliminated. I did not have anything to prove.

MS VILAKAZI: You said you got your instructions from Mr Makhubela, is that correct?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: And that Mr Makhubela is now deceased, is that correct?

MR MAKOLA: I haven't heard about that, I don't know about that. He was very old at that time, but I haven't heard about that.

MS VILAKAZI: So are you now saying you didn't have any contact with Mr Makhubela after the incident?

MR MAKOLA: After my arrest, because Mr Makhubela did not have a telephone, it was not easy for us to keep contact. I would only see him in court, but when I went to prison I could not contact him.

MS VILAKAZI: You have given evidence that the deceased, Benedict, was an informer and also an assassin. Let's look at the question of him being an informer. Did you know that for a fact that he was an informer or is it something that you were told?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I knew that because when George Skamora was killed on the 7th of July 1992, he went to my home and they assaulted my mother and he told my mother that wherever he will come across me he's going to kill me. On June 16th, 1992 he gave information about a comrade who used to stay at his place, that is Veli(?) and he was in the company of the police on that same day.

MS VILAKAZI: And then what about the fact that he was an assassin, did you know for a fact that he was an assassin or did you just hear about that?

MR MAKOLA: I knew that in full because when George was killed they came back the following morning together with Sidwell Mofokeng and a white man known as Wessels and CID Police. And Sidwell Mofokeng came out of that car and said to us they have not finished and they will come back again to finish others who are left. Remi was with them, that is when I realised that he was an informer. I grew up under him, I knew him fully. He was there, I saw him.

MS VILAKAZI: When did that happen?

MR MAKOLA: On the 7th of July 1992.

MS VILAKAZI: So at that time you became sure that Benedict was an assassin, is that what you're saying?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I became certain on that day because it was well-known that Remi was killing people in the township, but I did not have full evidence that he killed somebody, but on the 7th of June 1992 it was the first time that I saw that it's true that Remi was killing people. Even on the 16th of June 1992, there was full evidence that he was the person who went to fetch Veli at home. I did not have full evidence about that, but this incident of the 7th of June 1992, I had full evidence because I saw him with my eyes.

MS VILAKAZI: So from what you're saying, this Benedict was responsible for the death of quite a number of people, is that correct? From what you are ...(intervention)

MR MAKOLA: May you please repeat the question.

MS VILAKAZI: From what you are saying, this Benedict or Remi, as you call him, was responsible for the death of quite a number of people in your community.

MR MAKOLA: From what I know, the allegations and rumours in the township was that Remi was killing people, but what I know is that on the 7th of July 1992, when George Skamora was killed, Remi was present in that incident. That is the incident that I know that Remi was present.

MS VILAKAZI: So if that is the case why did it take you so long to act? Because you're saying the incident occurred in July 1992 and you only killed him 1993, February, why didn't you eliminate him immediately?

MR MAKOLA: As this happened in 1992, we have rules in the ANC that we have to follow, you don't just do things as you like or wish. I did not expect that one day I will be given an honour to go and kill him. On that day I did not have that in my mind, that one day I will kill a person.

MS VILAKAZI: Is it also the rules of the ANC that you could shoot your target in full view of other people, especially children?

MR MAKOLA: No, that is not the ANC rule that you should kill somebody in full view of everybody, but if the situation allows you to attack your target at that moment, you can go ahead with your mission, but that is not the ANC's rules that you should do it that way.

MS VILAKAZI: So you disregarded the rules of the ANC and decided to shoot him in front of his young kid.

MR MAKOLA: When you say I disregarded the ANC rules, I would say that I respected the ANC rules because when I was given an order to go and fulfil that mission, I did just that and the day that I was instructed to carry out that mission had already passed, so I went further to carry out that mission the following day. I would say there was no-one, I did not shoot him in front of his kids, I did not see any other person, I only saw him.

MS VILAKAZI: Are you denying that his young kid was in the vicinity when you shot him?

MR MAKOLA: I would not dispute and I would not agree with you. What I can say is that I did not see the kid.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you that the kid was around.

MR MAKOLA: If you say that, I will accept what you say to me. As the person who was present there, who shot Remi, I did not see the kid because I was only concentrating on my target. I did not see the people in the surroundings. The first time I heard about that was in court.

MS VILAKAZI: In your evidence you said you did not - that Mr Makhubela did not give you any reward for having carried out your mission. Did I hear you correctly?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, he did not reward me and I did not expect him to reward me.

MS VILAKAZI: Were you working at that time?

MR MAKOLA: No.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you have any form of income?

MR MAKOLA: No.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you that the information I have from the family is that shortly after the death of Benedict, you were seen going up and down the street in a variety of new clothes, what is your comment on that?

MR MAKOLA: Which street are you referring to Ma'am?

MS VILAKAZI: The street that you and Benedict stayed in.

MR MAKOLA: Yes, that's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: So where did you get the new clothes from?

MR MAKOLA: Are you saying new clothes? May you please explain that to me because I don't understand when you talk about new clothes.

MS VILAKAZI: In my initial question I said that I put it to you that shortly after the death you were seeing going up and down the street in a variety of new clothes, and you said that is true.

MR MAKOLA: I only heard when you say I was going up and down but I did not understand when you say I had new clothes.

MS VILAKAZI: So what was your purpose of going up and down the street?

MR MAKOLA: I was not going up and down, I was just passing by. I wanted to know what had happened, I wanted to know whether he had died or if he was still alive.

MS VILAKAZI: Were you arrested immediately after the incident?

MR MAKOLA: No.

MS VILAKAZI: At the time of Benedict's burial, were you in custody already?

MR MAKOLA: No.

MS VILAKAZI: Do you know that there were difficulties in burying Benedict in Vosloorus?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, I heard about that but I didn't know the nature of the problem.

MS VILAKAZI: So you only knew that there were problems?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: How did you get to know that there were problems?

MR MAKOLA: Like I said, we stayed together in the same street and I had friends in that street, in Mogako Street. The person who used to live close to Remi's place was Mohapi and Mohapi was my friend, we grew up together. He was the person who would inform me about everything. Even when Benedict was in hospital he was the person who was informing me about everything.

MS VILAKAZI: So did you get the information from Mohapi that there were problems with burying Benedict in Vosloorus?

MR MAKOLA: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you ask him what problems there were?

MR MAKOLA: I did not ask him, he just volunteered that information to me. He said to me they tried to bury him at the local Catholic Church, but the Priest in the church refused to bury him. They went to Lesotho and in Lesotho they encountered problems as well and then he was finally buried at Actonville.

MS VILAKAZI: You referred to Lesotho, are you referring to the Kingdom of Lesotho?

MR MAKOLA: When I refer to Lesotho I refer to the Mountain Kingdom, because he's the person who talked about Lesotho, I'm not exactly sure whether he was referring to the Kingdom of Lesotho or not.

MS VILAKAZI: So you knew what problems there were but you were trying to say that you didn't know about the problems?

MR MAKOLA: When you talk about problems you are not referring to one thing. There are many problems. What can be a problem to me may not necessarily be a problem to them. I can think of a problem which is not a problem to them.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you that the family had problems burying the deceased, Benedict, at Vosloorus because the residents threatened to disrupt the proceedings.

MR MAKOLA: I heard about that rumour. I know about that rumour but that they had problems in burying him, I do not have facts about that.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm also putting it to you that you were known to be part of the group of residents who were against the burial of Benedict at the Vosloorus cemetery.

MR MAKOLA: I do not understand when you say I was also part of the group of people who did not want Benedict to be buried at that place because you don't have evidence that I was there. Because I'm telling you that I was not in that group.

MS VILAKAZI: What I'm putting to you comes from my consultation with the family, so what I'm saying to you is what they said to me.

MR MAKOLA: I was not part of that group that was against his burial in Vosloorus.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you that Benedict was not involved in politics at all.

MR MAKOLA: Like I have already said, Benedict Modikwa, I did not know in which organisation he belonged. I do not have true facts about that, that is why I cannot say that he belonged to a particular political organisation. The only thing that I knew about Ramodikwe is that he was a killer and he was harassing the community.

MS VILAKAZI: I'm also putting it to you that benefitted financially from the killing of Mr Modikwa.

MR MAKOLA: I dispute that because I never received any reward as I was not expecting any reward. If you have any evidence that will show that I did receive a reward, I would appreciate if you can present that evidence and show me where I have put my signature that indicated I received a reward on a particular day.

MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

Mr Makola, in your testimony on the murder of Humphrey Khumalo, you stated that on the 25th of March 1992, some argument erupted between yourself and a group of people amongst whom Humphrey was, can you tell us more about what happened on that day? How did you come to meet them?

MR MAKOLA: I did not say on the 25th of March, I said on the 21st of March. We were at the shopping centre, he was in the company of members of the Youth Brigade. When I refer to the Youth Brigade, I refer to the youth who belonged to the IFP. As they were harassing us, we were standing at the shopping complex. They were going to the hostel, they were going to fetch other members of their organisation at the women's hostel. We were just standing outside the shopping complex, we were waiting for the bus. I don't recall well where we were going, I think we were going to Whiteville, Boipatong or Daveyton, but I cannot recall clearly where we were going to.

MS MTANGA: And how did you come to argue with them? Because in your testimony you said that an argument erupted between you and them.

MR MAKOLA: I would not say myself and him as individuals, but his group - I am including him in that group, and the group that accompanied me. In other words, what I am saying is there was that problem between these two groups because what they did that day it was for the first time that we see the IFP youth marching into the township, it was for the first time that we saw that and most of my fellow comrades were surprised about that. So as they were passing by they hurled some words towards us.

MS MTANGA: This hostel that you said they were coming from, Mamasesulu Hostel, was this a hostel occupied by IFP members?

MR MAKOLA: The people who stayed at that hostel were members of the ANC, members of the IFP. They were all mixed, but there were no men at that hostel and that is why we never thought of attacking that hostel. We did not regard that as a place that we could attack.

MS MTANGA: On the day you killed Humphrey Khumalo, who was you with? You said this took place at Dubazana Street, who were you with at that street?

MR MAKOLA: If I recall well, it was myself, Lloyd, Thabiso and there were another two people, I forgot their names, but we were not more than five.

MS MTANGA: Was Celo amongst you? Celo Japhta Tefo, do you know him?

MR MAKOLA: I cannot really say that he was there because most of the people who were with me that day, we were not using our actual names. They were not calling me Vusi because in most cases I used the name Zakero. Maybe I know him, but I cannot say that I don't know him, but maybe I don't know his real name.

MS MTANGA: You gave evidence here that the fight between you and Humphrey Khumalo started when Khumalo greeted you and addressed you as Comrade Chisa, and according to the statement of Celo Tefo who was with you on that day and also according to your evidence, you took offence to this greeting. Why did you take offence to this kind of greeting?

MR MAKOLA: I would repeat again, this name Comrade Chisa, I don't think that is the reason that made me to produce my gun and shoot and kill somebody. It is not the name that actually hurt me. Most of the people from the IFP used to refer to us as boys who were burning people, so that I did not take that as an offence.

MS MTANGA: But if I recall your evidence here today, you did indicate that you responded by saying that if someone didn't want to greet you they shouldn't greet you. When he had called you Comrade Chisa, your response was that if a person does not want to greet you he should not greet you. Am I wrong?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, that's correct, I said that. I said to him "If you don't want to greet me, please don't greet me at all if you are going to use that name".

MS MTANGA: Mr Makola, isn't that taking offence to the greeting? Would that amount to taking offence to that greeting?

MR MAKOLA: I was not offended by that greeting. That is not the actual reason why I was angry, I was angered by his subsequent words after he had greeted me. That is after I told him not to greet me that way. He said to me "Did you think that we will not meet again, did you think that this is the Basotho section?". So while we were still arguing, his friends produced knives, so I saw him trying to reach for his firearm, that's why I produced my gun as well.

MS MTANGA: Mr Makola, the person I just referred to as Celo Japhta Tefo, gave a statement to the police three days after the incident, this was on the 4th of January 1993, and he said that - I'll read his statement for you. That's paragraph 3 of the statement, from page 10 of our bundle

"We were walking along Dubazana Street, Vosloorus, when we met three black males unknown to me. One of them greeted Thabiso. He then greeted Vusi by saying "Com Chisa". Vusi objected to the greeting and said that he must be greeted correctly. The argument started and we intervened."

What do you say to this?

MR MAKOLA: Those people who were in court were not even present when this incident took place. If I recall well this incident I don't think Celo was there, because I don't even recall the name Celo at all.

MS MTANGA: Mr Makola, what would you say was political about the incident, what was political about it?

MR MAKOLA: I would say this incident is motivated by politics because Humphrey, when he came to me he approached me as a member of the IFP and he talked about old grudges that took place one day between the ANC and IFP. That is when we had a problem with them. And then he said to me I should not think this is the Sotho section. Vosloorus was divided into two sections, that area that belonged to the Zulu was a no-go area.

If you came from the area belonging to the ANC, it was not easy for you to enter that area that belonged to the Zulus and it was also the same on the other side. So we took an advantage that it was the 1st of December on that day and then we thought that many people who were residents of the hostel went home, so we thought that we would not encounter any problems in that section. We went to that section, we were not looking for trouble.

MS MTANGA: What would you say was the - what political objective was achieved by your killing of Humphrey Khumalo?

MR MAKOLA: At that time when I was attacking him I was defending myself as a member of the ANC and as a member of the ANC who was at the wrong place. If I did not act, then my life was in danger. Even the people who were with me, their lives were also in danger. Because I realised that I could act, so I acted against the members of the IFP who were trying to attack members of the ANC.

MS MTANGA: Mr Makola, I put it to you that the death of Humphrey Khumalo occurred as a result of your overreaction to the situation and it resulted from the fact that Humphrey greeted you in the way you didn't like and that was the reason why you killed him, why he ended up being killed by you. What do you say to this?

MR MAKOLA: That is not correct.

MS MTANGA: What else was the reason for killing him?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he dealt with that? Was that not the subject matter of the cross-examination for the past couple of minutes?

MS MTANGA: Alright, Chairperson, I will withdraw that question.

I will move to the murder of Siphiwe Mapute and Walter Ndo. In your evidence you said that you were walking past the Fountain Bottle Store with your girlfriend, is this correct?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

MS MTANGA: And then you also stated that this was at about half past nine in the evening.

MR MAKOLA: That's correct. It could between half past nine and 10 o'clock, I'm not quite sure.

MS MTANGA: And some people appeared from the dark, how many people did you see approaching?

MR MAKOLA: Those that I saw were two.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence you say that when these people approached they uttered something, what exactly did they say?

MR MAKOLA: When they appeared they were talking in Zulu and they were saying "These are the people we are looking for". While I was listening to these people and then I heard somebody cocking the gun.

MS MTANGA: Besides yourself and your girlfriend and these two people, were there other people in your vicinity?

MR MAKOLA: No, I did not see other people because after I shot them while they were running away, I looked around to see if somebody has seen me, there was no-one around.

MS MTANGA: Mr Makola, according to the evidence of your girlfriend, Delatana Nomxholiso Nduza, who gave evidence in court, her testimony was to the effect that you had asked these people what was wrong, they never spoke to you, you are the one who spoke to them first and then at that point you took out your weapon and fired shots at them. What do you say to this?

MR MAKOLA: My girlfriend's evidence, I understand that when she gave that statement she was threatened because before I became a suspect she was first arrested and she was interrogated and she refused to mention my name at the police station. She was collected for the second time and she refused again. After my arrest they threatened her and they said to her they are going to arrest her.

She was indeed arrested for two days and they persuaded her to make a statement. What she said in court was not true, because I have already said that I did not trust the police at that time and those were the very same police who took that statement from her. They were trying to match the two cases together so as to make me go to jail.

MS MTANGA: But you had committed both crimes, Mr Makola. My final question to you is, what political objective did you achieve by killing Siphiwe and injuring Walter Ndo? What political objective did you achieve?

MR MAKOLA: On these two incidents of the 1st and the 2nd, I would say I was in a wrong section at the wrong time because that was a no-go area. I was at the place belonging to the Zulus, so I had to defend myself under such circumstances, because if I did not do that my life was in danger because I knew that the people who were living in that area were IFP members and I knew that they were going to kill me. If they were not going to kill me, they were going to harm me and I did not know what they were going to do with my girlfriend. Maybe they were going to kill her or maybe they were going to rape her, I do not know. That is why I decided that I have to do something to defend myself because I was in my enemy's section. That is why I defended myself.

MS MTANGA: Mr Makola, in your evidence you said that you did not see these people, you did not know them and you didn't even know what political organisation they belonged to. And my question still stands, how did this act further the political objectives of the organisation? Because you could not have regarded them as your political enemy, or opposition.

MR MAKOLA: If I wasn't in that situation, that is being a target - I was wanted by the IFP, I was wanted by the police as well, if I wasn't in that situation I don't think that I would carry a gun at all times. And I don't think I would shoot them in that section. Because I was a member of the ANC and I was wanted by the IFP, what I did, because I saw people in that section, my enemy's section from the darkness and I heard somebody cocking the gun and then I thought that they were members of the IFP, so I acted in self-defence by shooting them. I would emphasise that again, that I did not know them.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one.

When they spoke and said "These are the people", what language were they speaking?

MR MAKOLA: They were speaking in Zulu.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Ms Makhubele?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: In response to Ms Vilakazi's question you said you were in Tanzania, but you never received any training. What were you doing there?

MR MAKOLA: We were 10 when we went to Tanzania, our intention was to go there and receive training in guerilla warfare, but when we arrived in Tanzania we were told that there was no longer training in guerilla warfare and then we were told by the regular army that is going to be formed by the SADF and other liberation organisation armies who would be integrated, so I decided that I'll come back home so that I could also be ...(indistinct)

MS MAKHUBELE: It has been canvassed again by Ms Vilakazi that you obtained a reward in the form of clothes and then you conceded that you had no means of income. Who was maintaining you on a day-to-day basis?

MR MAKOLA: My parents, my family. They were helping me with food and clothes.

MS MAKHUBELE: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman, thanks.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Yes, Mr Makola, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you presenting any other evidence, Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: That's the applicant's evidence, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Vilakazi, are you presenting any evidence?

MS VILAKAZI: Mr Chairman, I would need to consult, can I just get five minutes, exactly five minutes to consult?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Mtanga, have you got any evidence?

MS MTANGA: I have no evidence to lead, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: ... ask her. Take that first microphone Ma'am, switch it on. Just remain standing and give us your full names.

ALLA MADSIDISO MTJALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Yes, Ms Vilakazi.

EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Madsidiso, you have been sitting in here so I'm sure you've heard Mr Makola giving evidence. In his evidence he made reference to one, Sidwell, who the deceased was seen with several times. Do you know this Sidwell?

MS MTJALI: Yes, I do.

MS VILAKAZI: How is he related to Benedict, is there any relationship between himself and Benedict?

MS MTJALI: Yes, there is, Sidwell is Benedict's brother-in-law.

MS VILAKAZI: So you mean he's also your brother-in-law?

MS MTJALI: Yes, he is.

MS VILAKAZI: Is there any specific reason why Benedict would be seen in the company of Sidwell?

MS MTJALI: Yes, I think the reason that they are related, it's brother-in-law.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, Chair, it seems the applicant wants to speak Sotho. She's on the wrong channel actually. Can you hear me, Madsidiso?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it better now? Mrs Mtjali, was Sidwell a councillor?

MS MTJALI: I didn't hear the question clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Sidwell a councillor?

MS MTJALI: Yes, he was a councillor.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi.

MS VILAKAZI: In my consultation with you, you indicated the fact that Sidwell owned a business, do you confirm that?

MS MTJALI: That's correct, he had a shop. He was a councillor and he also owned a supermarket.

MS VILAKAZI: You also informed me about an incident that involved the burning of his shop, can you confirm that?

MS MTJALI: That's correct. That was on the 16th of June 1992. Benedict was on his way from his girlfriend and then as he was passing that supermarket, he saw the supermarket burning and he saw those boys who were burning that supermarket.

He went back to Sidwell to inform him that he saw people who were burning his supermarket. Mr Makola has mentioned Veli's name, who used to stay opposite our home. He was one of the people who actually burnt that supermarket. They went to the police and those people were arrested. From that day I think that is why Makola has an impression that Benedict was an informer and an assassin, because he does not have the true facts about what he is saying.

MS VILAKAZI: Was there any criminal prosecution relating to the incident?

MS MTJALI: There were no criminal proceedings because we were threatened and our home was also burnt. We went to see Mr Montsisi, who was a member of SANCO, to come and help us resolve this problem. He did not help us and then we realised that Benedict's life was in danger and then we decided that he should withdraw from that case because the house was already burnt and my mother was no longer staying with us. He did that, he did not go to court, he did not attend the court proceedings. Because Benedict was a witness they did not have the evidence and those people were freed, that is Veli and others.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. Mr Makola in his evidence also made mention of an incident involving Gomora, do you know anything about that incident?

MS MTJALI: He is lying when he says Benedict was present because Benedict that day was at work.

MS VILAKAZI: In my consultation with you, you also referred to the problems that you had regarding the funeral arrangements for benedict. Can you tell this Committee what happened on the day of the burial.

MS MTJALI: On the day - I would say on Thursday our problem, we had arranged with the undertaker from Vosloorus, that is Mrs Sekoti, she came to us on that day to tell us she is no longer prepared to bury or to keep Benedict at her mortuary because she's been threatened that is she keeps Benedict's corpse there, they would burn her mortuary. She referred us to Benoni in the East Rand, because I was involved in the funeral arrangements. We went to the far East, we talked to those people there, they said they don't have a problem, they can bury him in what Whiteville, but they cannot bury him in Vosloorus. We agreed with them and then we made the arrangements that we are going to bury him in Whiteville.

On Friday, on my work from the far East, we received a call, a telephone call and this person said to us that "We have heard that you are going to bury him tomorrow at 10 o'clock at Whiteville, so we will be there at 6 o'clock in the morning. So we were really hurt by this, we did not know what to do. It was already 5 o'clock in the afternoon on Friday, we went to look for Sidwell, we told him about the problem we have just heard from the ...(intervention)

MS VILAKAZI: Let me cut you short here. You referred to a telephone call that you received.

MS MTJALI: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Who answered the telephone?

MS MTJALI: That's the child, the deceased's child. I took the phone from her because I realised that she did not understand what was said on the phone and then I answered the phone myself.

MS VILAKAZI: The person who was speaking on the phone spoke to you when he said that he has heard that you'll be burying in Whiteville. Did he speak to you?

MS MTJALI: That is correct, he spoke to me.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you recognise the voice of the person?

MS MTJALI: Yes, I did recognise the voice.

MS VILAKAZI: Whose voice was it?

MS MTJALI: It was the voice of Mr Mbofu, who was the member of the ANC in Vosloorus.

MS VILAKAZI: So this Mr Mbofu belonged to the same organisation as Mr Makola, the applicant, is that correctc?

MS MTJALI: I would say it's so, but I would say Mr Makola is just a ...(indistinct) who is coming to be an opportunist here. He is just hiding behind the ANC.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay, let us go to the day of the burial itself. In my consultation with you, you referred to the actions of the applicant, Mr Makola, can you be straight to the point and tell this Committee what did Mr Makola do on the date of the burial?

MS MTJALI: I will just summarise this. On our way to the graves there was a bus that we thought has broken down. We did not have a hearse and we were using a family car. On our way to the graveyard this bus followed us. Fortunately when we arrived there, Sidwell had already organised with the police because they already knew what is going to happen there. When we came back from the graveyard, opposite our house, while people were still sitting there, he shot towards the people, that is the mourners who were sitting there after the funeral. I don't know why he was shooting towards these people.

MS VILAKAZI: Okay. You know the family of Mr Makola?

MS MTJALI: Yes, I know them very well, we live in the same street.

MS VILAKAZI: You know the type of lifestyle that they led.

MS MTJALI: They were just ordinary people. They were not rich or poor people, they were just ordinary people.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you know Mr Makola to be someone who would wear expensive clothes?

MS MTJALI: No, he did not wear expensive clothes, but after the death of Benedict, on the same week he wore leather jackets and after some time he would come back again wearing different clothes again. He was just moving up and down changing clothes. He was just showing us the way he was changing his clothes, that is why we suspected that he was sent to do this and he was rewarded.

MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Chairman, if I may just approach the applicant.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Makhubele.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Have you always resided at Vosloorus during that time?

MS MTJALI: That's correct, I've always been a resident of Vosloorus.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know what the view of the community were against councillors?

MS MTJALI: Yes, I did know.

MS MAKHUBELE: Was the community happy with the fact that Sidwell is a councillor which was viewed in a bad light at that time?

MS MTJALI: Yes, that's correct. The other thing was that his father was also a policeman so people would use that as an opportunity and say they don't like that person, simply because of his position.

MS MAKHUBELE: Would you say that could have been the reason why his shop was burned?

MS MTJALI: I believe so. I believe his supermarket was burned because he was a councillor.

MS MAKHUBELE: You say that when the applicant refers to Benedict as an informer that's, this stems from the fact that he saw them burning this shop belonging to Sidwell?

MS MTJALI: This supermarket was not far from Sidwell's girlfriend so he was on his way home when he saw these boys who were burning Sidwell's supermarket.

MS MAKHUBELE: My instructions are that applicant was never arrested for burning Sidwell's shop. What do you say?

MS MTJALI: He was not arrested but he said people like Veli were arrested because Benedict was a informer. He says Benedict was an informer and an ...(indistinct). I disagree with him when he says that, but at the same time I agree that he was never arrested for that.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, but then if the applicant was not part of the people who were arrested or suspected or who said that is the reason why he is an informer, why are you saying that the applicant is saying he is an informer due to the burning of the shop incident?

MS MTJALI: Can you please repeat that question? I did not understand the question.

MS MAKHUBELE: The suspect, rather the applicant was not part of the people suspected of burning Sidwell's shop nor was he the person who said: "Your brother, the deceased, is an informer due to that incident", so your statement that the applicant is basing his opinion on the burning of the shop incident has no basis.

MR LAX: Isn't it your client's case that he was a liar to the people who burned the shop, that he was a comrade of those people?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes but then ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Well then, isn't it self-evident flowing from that very fact that he might think that Benedict was an informer, because he informed on his comrades?

MS MAKHUBELE: May I then leave it there and proceed?

What was your brother doing for a living, the deceased?

MS MTJALI: He was employed, he was working for a company in Boksburg, a glass making company.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you know any members of the Internal Stability Unit yourself?

MS MTJALI: No. I did not know them.

MS MAKHUBELE: There's an allegation that your brother was seen in their company, people like Wessels from Internal Stability Unit as well as Sidwell.

MS MTJALI: That is not true. That is pure lies.

MS MAKHUBELE: You testify that people were against your brother being buried in Vosloorus. Would you concede that it's, you even confirm that someone, you recognised a voice of someone from ANC, who phoned and threatened your family. Would you then concede that it's not only the applicant who had a problem with your brother, but that that community or the ANC community did?

MS MTJALI: I would not accept that.

MS MAKHUBELE: Why not? In your own words you said this Mpofu, an ANC member phoned and threatened your family.

MS MTJALI: Yes, I said that, but I would not accept that my brother was an informer and that he was hated by people. They only hated him because he was Sidwell's brother-in-law, that is why they made up these allegations that he was an informer. That was because of his relationship with Sidwell because at that time people did not like the councillors.

MS MAKHUBELE: So it is correct that at the time of his death, there were such allegations that he is an informer?

MS MTJALI: Yes, that's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Ms Mtanga, questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Has the Panel got any questions?

MR LAX: No questions.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Vilakazi.

MS VILAKAZI: No re-exam.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VILAKAZI: That will be the case for the Modikwa family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am.

Ms Mtjali, do you still live in the same place?

MS MTJALI: Vosloorus.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the same, in the same house at the same address as at the time when your brother was killed?

MS MTJALI: I am now married but at the Zulu section so I'm staying at my own place but other members of the family still stay in that house at Mogakwa Street.

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant Mr Makola, does his family still live where they were living at that time?

MS MTJALI: Yes, that's correct, they still live there.

CHAIRPERSON: Has your family got any, have your family had any contact with the Makola family subsequent to this incident?

MS MTJALI: My mother's life is in danger because most of the time my mother will receive threats from the applicant's father. At one stage he referred to my mother as a witch and he also said that he can use a spade to hack her and he will be defended by the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that there is not a good relationship between these two families?

MS MTJALI: It is not good at all. We have tried to engage the street committee but this old man does not want to understand. He'll always insult my mother. When my mother passes by to the shop he will always say to my mother she should not pass there and he will insult her.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just give me a minute. Mr Makola, is your father here?

MR MAKOLA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he sitting there?

MR MAKOLA: Yes, he is here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I hope he's listening. So Mrs Mtjali are you saying that it has not been possible to try and restore a normal relationship between these two families?

MS MTJALI: We have tried. We engaged the street committees but all in vain because Mr Makola Senior doesn't want to co-operate because he thinks his son has done a good thing so he wants to kill us, all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Makola's mother, is she still alive?

MS MTJALI: Yes, she is still alive. She is present here.

CHAIRPERSON: And have you or your family tried to speak to her?

MS MTJALI: My mother has tried. Like I said they also involved the street committees. She said to me they have tried to talk to her but it seems she's not prepared to make any peace with them because they will continue with insults on her way to the shops.

CHAIRPERSON: And is your family still desirous of restoring a relationship with the applicant's family?

MS MTJALI: No, we are not prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MS MTJALI: Because we have tried on a number of occasions, so if you continue with this, I think now we would be looking for trouble, so we decided, myself and my mother, that we are no longer going to talk to them.

CHAIRPERSON: But if there is a change of attitude on the part of the Makola family, will your family then be prepared to try and discuss this difference again?

MS MTJALI: That is very difficult. It is very difficult to forgive the people who killed your loved one because they now live in peace and we have children who have lost their father in our family so we don't really want to forgive them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, no we understand that. We understand that. It's not possible to forget, but it might be possible to try and recover at least normal relationships between people who seem to live in the same vicinity. But we will see what the possibilities are about that. Let me thank you for having come and having given your evidence. You're now excused.

MS MTJALI: I thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Vilakazi, is that the evidence that you wanted to present?

MS VILAKAZI: Yes, that is all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Makhubele. Have you got any submissions?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MS MAKHUBELE IN ARGUMENT: The Honourable Committee, there's no excuse as to whether, on the one question whether he's a member of a political organisation of not. Yes he is, but the question would be, was he furthering the objectives of the organisation when he killed the three people?

When we look at Vosloorus as we have heard the evidence, the community had been divided. Zulu section where the IFP hostel operated, Sotho section, ANC hostel, there was animosity amongst residents based on tribal and political divide. The youth too. ANC Youth League, IFP Youth League. People couldn't move freely in politically, what I would call politically proclaimed streets. The Youth were against each other simply because they belonged to different political organisations and were at the wrong place at the wrong time. That is the context in which the first incident occurred and people acted not only in what one would call conventional self-defence, but to pre-empt an imminent attack.

When one looks at this in isolation one will be at pains to find a political motive but seen in the light of the dangers in respect of the territories, one will understand the actions of the applicant on the day that the first victim was killed. When we come to the second incident, we are still in darkness as to whether the people killed belonged to any political organisation which would make one to make assumptions as to whether there was a political motive or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Then it's sufficient for the applicant to have had a bona fide belief that that was the case.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time, same as what I've already said. Then on the third incident, the violence between residents and hostel dwellers and the alleged conspiracy by police and the involvement of committee members in people who were sent to stabilise the situation, the ISU unit. We have heard even the evidence of the family member that because the councillors were thought to be in conspiracy with the establishment, they were seen in a bad light, which would strengthen the applicant's case, what really there was at the time this perceived, that Benedict was perceived to be an informer, hence we see even during his funeral, the family's funeral arrangements were disrupted. This shows that there are merits to what the applicant has said that because Benedict was thought to be an informer, there was an order to eliminate him. It is on this basis that I would make the submission that really the actions of the applicant, seen in the light of the political climate at Vosloorus on that time, they were politically motivated.

That would be my submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Vilakazi?

MS VILAKAZI IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Firstly I would concede to the fact that the scenery you painted, might give an impression or might warrant the applicant having a bona fide belief that Benedict was an informer but the fact that the applicant was acting in furtherance of the ANC, of the objectives of the African National Congress. That aspect is questionable mainly because of the fact that the applicant himself for instance has distanced himself from the disruptions relating to the funeral arrangements of the deceased Benny, which actions, as Mrs Mtjali has indicated, emanated from the ANC camp.

The applicant has tried to create a picture that he did not know what was taking place, he did not know what problems there existed with regards to the funeral arrangements, so he created the impression that he was not at all involved in that and by that he has distanced himself from the activities of the African National Congress in that regard.

One other aspect which needs to be taken into consideration is the fact that Mr Makola has denied shooting the deceased in front of his child. That matter was proved in court to be correct, that the shooting took place in the presence of his child and Mr Makola has alluded to the fact that it would not be in a spirit of carrying out an ANC operation to kill in front of a child. The excuse that he has tried to come up with, that he had to use that opportunity to kill, should not be accepted because on his own version the day that he shot the deceased was not the first time that he attempted to shoot at him. He went there a day before and he was disturbed and he decided that there were some people and he decided that he's not going to do that. Now the question is, if he could decide to suspend carry out his mandate or the instruction to kill on that first occasion, what prevented him from desisting from carrying out the instruction on the second occasion, because still there were people around, there was a disturbance and particularly for the fact that there was a child. For that reason the action of Mr Makola cannot be ascribed to the manner in which instructions are carried out, as he has alluded to, within the ANC.

In his evidence Mr Makola has indicated that there were some rumours that Benny was difficult to shoot and that if one tried to shoot him, the gun would jam. Besides that, or even knowing that, he still went on to go and shoot him. There can be, the inference can be drawn that he wanted to prove that it is not impossible to kill Benny and that he could do it and to demonstrate that, he pumped all the bullets into his body, even when he had already fallen down, he still continued pumping bullets into his body.

I'll also address the question of Mr Makola being a credible witness. I think Mr Makola has not presented himself as one who should be believed. He has contradicted himself in several aspects. For example, I asked him a question with regard to him being seen wearing no clothes immediately after the incident. Initially he agreed to that and then when a follow-up question was asked, then he denied having agreed that he was seen wearing no clothes. He pretended as if he had not understood the question and he said what he understood of the question was that he was seen going up and down the street. When I asked him why, what was the purpose of him going up and down the street, then he denied ever going up and down the street. Mr Makola, in his application has indicated, has made a statement to the effect that he does not know the address of the deceased, but he gave evidence to the effect that he knew the deceased very well and when he was growing up he used to play at his place. That in itself is a contradiction, more especially because he made the application for amnesty after the trial and during the trial the address of the deceased was mentioned, so he should have known and in fact it can be said that he knew the address, but he wanted to claim that he did not know. So when he completed the application form, Mr Makola was not fully honest.

Coming to the merits of the matter. The question of granting amnesty. The application that Mr Makola has made is because he wants to be granted amnesty and in order to qualify for amnesty he has to satisfy the three requirements of the Act and one of the requirements is that there should have been no personal gain in the matter. From the evidence given, it is clear that Mr Makola benefitted financially or otherwise from the killing or Mr Modikwa. Evidence has been put before this Committee that Mr Makola comes from an average family and before the incident he was not seen to be parading fashionable clothes or expensive clothes but immediately after this shooting incident, he was seen in new clothes and changing those new clothes and going up and down the street to parade those clothes. If Mr Makola did not benefit financially from killing Benedict, how could he afford to buy new clothes and not just one set of clothes, but a number of new clothes, particularly given the fact that he comes from an average family which could not afford such type of clothes and also given the fact that Mr Makola was not employed at that particular time. My submission to the Commission is that no other inference can be drawn from that except for the fact that he had benefitted financially from carrying out the assassination or the killing of Benedict. That will be my submissions, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's hear.

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: My submission would be in respect of the death of Humphrey Khumalo, the death of Siphiwe Mapute and the injury of Walter, I'll have to check the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: It is my submission that Mr Humphrey Khumalo did not die because he posed threat or danger to the applicant but in fact died because he had greeted in the way the applicant did not approve of. The applicant has given evidence before this Panel in which he would like us to believe that the killing of Humphrey Khumalo took place as a result of him being in a wrong place at the wrong time. It is my submission that the source of the fight between Mr Khumalo and the applicant was the fact that he had been greeted in a way he didn't like and it is my submission that the applicant is highly likely to have reacted the same way even if he was in another place, which was not an IFP area. If the Committee looks at the facts surrounding this incident, the applicant was with other people whom I would assume were ANC comrades and they were all coming from Mr Makhubele, who was then the Commander of the applicant. If the Youth that the applicant is referring to were an IFP Youth which posed danger, this danger would have been felt by all the members of his group. In this case it is clear from the court evidence that the fight occurred only between Mr Makola and Mr Khumalo and it was a personal fight on how he was greeted, it had nothing to do with politics and it is my submission that the Committee should see it that way.

I further submit that the applicant's ...(indistinct) and the subsequent killing of Mr Khumalo could not have furthered the political objective of the ANC and therefore the applicant should not be granted amnesty in respect of this offence. The applicant has not shown how this would have furthered the political objectives of the ANC which is the organisation that he belonged to.

Moving to the next incident which is the incident where Siphiwe and Walter were attacked by the applicant, it is my submission that again, looking at the facts, the applicant cannot show how this killing or the injury of Walter could have benefitted his organisation or furthered the political struggle. It is also borne in the evidence of his girlfriend that he is the one who uttered words against these people as opposed to the evidence he's given before us today that these people, the victims had identified him as the person they were looking for or he thought they were saying he's the person they were looking for. The evidence that was led before the court by his own girlfriend was that he uttered words to them and took out a firearm and shot them.

It is my submission that the applicant has not given full disclosure as to why he had shot these two people and even on the version of his application there is no, he has not shown how this killing benefitted his political organisation and therefore I am asking the Committee not to grant amnesty to the applicant in respect of these two incidents. This ends my submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Ms Makhubele have you got any reply?

MS MAKHUBELE IN REPLY: I will only respond to Ms Vilakazi's submission, that's on the question of full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MAKHUBELE: My submission would be, the question that Ms Vilakazi is basing her submission on the question of full disclosure, that of address, this is not a material matter or does not form the criteria as enumerated in section 20 of the Act and as the applicant has already answered under cross-examination, that they may be living in the same street, but he doesn't up to now know the address. Address can mean many things. Postal address, residential address, and this question, my submission is, is not a material thing that would affect him on the question on disclosure. That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Makhubele. Yes well that concludes the evidence and the formal proceedings in this application. The Panel will have to consider all of the evidence and all of the arguments and submissions that were addressed to us very carefully and then come to a decision on the applications. It is not possible to do that immediately and the Panel will endeavour to finalise this matter as soon as circumstances will permit.

We want to express our gratitude to particularly Ms Makhubele and Ms Vilakazi as well as Ms Mtanga and we want to commend you for the way in which you have represented the interests of your clients. We appreciate that in so far as that part of these proceedings are concerned, there is an element of an adversarial approach to the matter and your clients can rest assured that you have done that to the best of your ability.

However, particularly in my view, that's not where these proceedings end, these are not adversarial proceedings in it's nature. The work that we do forms part of the work that has already been done by a bigger Commission. We are not sitting as a court of law, we are not called upon to decide the guilt or the innocence of people who appear before us and who apply for amnesty. There are certain criteria in the law which we must look at. We must consider the application before us strictly on what is said in the law and if the application complies with all of those requirements which are set down in the law, then we have to decide the matter accordingly. If the application complies with the requirements of the law, then the applicant qualifies for amnesty. If the application does not comply with the requirements of the law, then the applicant does not qualify for amnesty. We are not entitled to take into account any other considerations which might be relevant in a particular case and Parliament has had very good reason for doing that, to make it very clear to us how we should be doing our work and as I've indicated earlier, this is part of a larger process that has been done to a great extent already by the Commission and one of the objectives of that process is to try and get away from the conflict that we have experience in this country.

Very unfortunate incidents that have happened, there's been a tragic loss of life, often unnecessarily, but all of those incidents related to that past that we are trying to get away from, that we don't to live in, we want to look forward to the future and this process that this Committee is part of, is looking at the future to improve the future for the people of this country and not to live in the past and not to continue carrying on with conflicts that belong to the past and belongs to a time when there was a lot of disagreement between people, there was a lot of misunderstanding, there was a lot of manipulation of the political situation in this country. We've come through all that. A lot of people in the world say that it is a miracle that in this country we've managed to come to where we are today. We've been in hell, we've been to hell and back and we must be grateful for that, that we have gone that far.

So, in that spirit I must say that I find it quite disconcerting to be told that apparently your clients Ms Makhubele and Ms Vilakazi, seem for some or other reason, possibly understandably so because there are a lot of emotions that go with these matters, but have not been able to work their way through this experience that they've had, this very negative experience that they have had. As I've said, I find that very, very hard and it is most distressing to be told that and to see that senior citizens find it difficult and people who've been living in the immediate vicinity of one another for some time, find it difficult even to look at the possibility of trying to understand and trying to work through the negative experience that they have had and therefore in speaking personally, this is not part of our duty as a Committee and that is why I've tried to sketch to you what we have to do, this is not part of what the law says, but we're not talking about the law, we're talking of something bigger than that.

No matter how this application is decided, no matter whether the applicant gets amnesty or not, in my view, my personal view, I believe that your clients should take steps to at least try to resolve the problems that they have been experiencing over, it seems, quite a long period of time and as I've said once you've done the adversarial side of your duties, it is just a part of your human duty I believe, to prevail on your clients, explain to them that you've done what you are supposed to do strictly speaking, but that that does not, that should not represent really the spirit in which they should be approaching this matter. It's not a win or lose situation, it's not a court of law, we are not going to decide who is guilty or who is innocent, or who had sone what in the broader context. That is not necessary for us to decide upon that. We do our work, they have to live together and I believe that I'm failing in my duty if I don't raise this as an issue that needs attention. So I sincerely hope that you will, both of your will use your good offices and your influence in possibly trying to get your clients to re-think the adversarial situation that they seem to find themselves in.

As I've indicated we will reserve the decision in this matter. We will notify you once it is ready. We will try to do it as quickly as we can and then let you know what the result of the application is.

We have come to the end of the proceedings today. We will now adjourn and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. Yes, I'm reminded that perhaps I should express the Panel's gratitude to all of the people that we have unfortunately detained long beyond the normal sitting hours today. We appreciate your co-operation, the Correctional Services, the South African Police Services, the Interpreters and our staff and the members of the public, we appreciate your patience. As I've tried to indicate at an earlier occasion, we arrange our schedules so that we cause the least inconvenience to those people who must come here. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not. Sometimes cases take a bit longer than what we thought and we are forced to go beyond we had planned and unfortunately this time we had to do that, but we do appreciate your assistance and co-operation. It hasn't gone unnoticed. We thank you. We'll now adjourn.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS