ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi, we see that you are back in the driving seat, who are we hearing?
MR PADI: That is correct Mr Chair. We will be hearing the matter of Mr Mnyakeni.
CHAIRPERSON: Do we have anyone, Ms Thabethe, for the victims?
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I would like to put it on record, that we could not trace the victims because they were living in a shack and according to our investigator, he went there, there aren't even shacks there so what was done is that there was an advertisement with their names, but we haven't had any response from anybody.
CHAIRPERSON: Are the shacks still there?
MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Are the shacks still there?
MS THABETHE: The shacks are no longer there, Mr Chair.
MR MALAN: Was it possible to establish the identity of Absolom Mnyakeni? No, I asked you Ms Thabethe, I asked you yesterday to establish that for us?
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, what I did yesterday is that when I came out from our meeting, Mr Padi had left, but I phoned him and he said he was going to ask the applicant and inform you.
MR MALAN: Okay, did you follow up with him?
MS THABETHE: He said he was going to ...
MR MALAN: No, I asked you whether you followed up with him?
MS THABETHE: Followed up with?
MR MALAN: To get feedback from Mr Padi?
MS THABETHE: No, we had agreed that he was going to give you feedback, Mr Chair.
MR MALAN: But he did not do any feedback to you, is that what you are telling us?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.
MR MALAN: You know what the demands are in terms of advising victims if at all it could be established who they are and perhaps ascertain their whereabouts?
MS THABETHE: I beg your pardon?
MR MALAN: You know what the demands of the Act are in terms of the rights of victims and the treatment of victims and the policy in terms of finding victims?
MS THABETHE: Yes.
MR MALAN: Mr Padi, could we hear from you?
MR PADI: Yes, Honourable Committee Member, I tried to ascertain from Mr Mnyakeni if he was at all related to Absolom Mnyakeni and he said he was not. That is what I agreed upon with Ms Thabethe, that I would ascertain from the applicant.
MR MALAN: Brenda Ngabo and Mongezi Dunga?
MR PADI: These are - may I state that the applicant is presently in prison, I was not asked, I couldn't ascertain whether these people are known or where there whereabouts are.
MR MALAN: How did you manage to ascertain the information about Mr Absolom Mnyakeni?
MR PADI: I only enquired from the applicant. I asked him if he knew him, if he was related to him, which was what I agreed upon with Ms Thabethe.
MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, the Committee asked you yesterday that you should obtain a report from the Investigative Unit of what attempts they made, were you able to get such a statement from them?
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, with regard to this matter, the investigator was Mr Oupa who I called yesterday to come to the Committee's members to explain what happened in this incident. He indeed did so in front of the Honourable Member, Mr Malan. So, the answer is yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he able to give a report, a written report?
MS THABETHE: No, the report was not written, it was verbal.
CHAIRPERSON: You are implicated, Mr Malan, would you wish to have legal representation?
MR MALAN: No, I have this difficulty because it is the task of the analysts to tell us exactly what was done, and really we talked about I think, written reports from the analysts about what they have done. It is not only sending someone to a place, but it is also trying other ways of establishing the whereabouts of people, dockets at some later stage, because the case was heard way after the incident. But I don't think Chair, we have much of an option, but to continue with this. One would still though want whoever was the analyst for this matter, to tell us what more they have done, because the victims may have a comeback to the Committee, thank you.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did we advertise in this matter?
MS THABETHE: Yes, we did advertise, because what happened, I think they got the names of the victims from the docket and the victims used to stay in a shack, so our investigator went to that place where apparently the shacks were, and when he went there, the shacks were no longer there, and that is when we advertised.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. Could we have a copy of the advertisement?
MS THABETHE: I asked Ms Linda Mdayi to provide me with a copy, I phoned her yesterday.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, because we must at least have prove that we have tried to advertise, or that we did advertise, and we have proof of that.
MS THABETHE: Yes, I phoned her yesterday, I can try again to get that copy today.
JUDGE DE JAGER: I cannot, why didn't she send it yesterday or this morning?
MS THABETHE: Well, maybe that is my fault, Mr Chair.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes.
MS THABETHE: I would like to take that responsibility because I didn't make a follow up.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay, right.
CHAIRPERSON: We would however say before we give our decision, we would need a written report from Oupa and a copy of the advert from Mdayi.
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Whom are we hearing Mr Padi?
MR PADI: This is the amnesty application for Simon Bahlezi Mnyakeni.
CHAIRPERSON: What language would he want to speak?
MR PADI: That would be in Zulu.
CHAIRPERSON: Please rise and please give us your full names?
MR MNYAKENI: Simon Bahlezi Mnyakeni
SIMON BAHLEZI MNYAKENI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Mr Padi?
EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chair. This is the application for amnesty by the applicant for the murder of, for the incident which occurred on the 21st of March 1992, which incident involved the killing of two people, the kidnapping and assault of additional two people.
CHAIRPERSON: You said the killing of two people and what further?
MR PADI: The kidnapping and assault of two other people, Your Worship.
CHAIRPERSON: Does he know their names?
MR PADI: The people who were killed Your Worship, were Absolom Mnyakeni and Patrick Nkhumalo.
CHAIRPERSON: And the kidnapping and assault?
MR PADI: The person who was kidnapped and assault Your Worship, it is known from the records, her name is Brenda - I am still trying to get the surname if I can be pardoned Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you not find out from the applicant himself?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Page 17. The person, first person murdered on the 21st of March at Daveyton, Absolom Mnyakeni. On the same date and place Patrick Nkhumalo was murdered. The persons who were kidnapped was Brenda Ngabo and Mongezi Dunga? (transcriber's own interpretation)
MR PADI: Thank you, I am indebted to Honourable Committee Member. That will be the application as it will be presented to the Honourable Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Does Mr Mnyakeni know these people other than what appears on the record, does he personally know that these are the names of the people?
MR PADI: Let me confirm that with him, Your Worship.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR PADI: The applicant confirms that he knows that these are the people for which he was arrested and he is applying for amnesty, in relation to crimes committed against these people.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed.
MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mnyakeni, can you have a look at the application form which I am putting before you, I am referring to the application form of the applicant. Do you recognise this application form?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes.
MR PADI: Who completed it for you or did you complete it yourself?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, at Modabi prison.
MR PADI: Were you assisted by any other person?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I completed it on my own.
MR PADI: Thank you Mr Mnyakeni.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Does he serve an effective sentence of 22 years?
MR PADI: Yes, he is serving an effective sentence of 22 years.
CHAIRPERSON: You can accept that the application is properly before us.
MR PADI: I appreciate that, thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mnyakeni, can you give us a bit of your background in relation to what organisation you belong to and what position did you hold in that, if any?
MR MNYAKENI: I was a member of the ANC Youth League, I was the Chairperson of the Youth League at Mandela Squatter Camp.
MR PADI: Where is this Mandela Squatter Camp situated?
MR MNYAKENI: At Daveyton.
MR PADI: Were you a Vice-Chairman of the Youth League at the time of the incident in question, that is on the 21st of March 1992?
MR MALAN: He said he was the Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: No, deputy.
MR MALAN: But in oral evidence he now said he was the Chairman.
MR PADI: Can I get clarity from him on that? What position did you hold in the ANC Youth League?
MR MNYAKENI: I was the Deputy.
MR PADI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you speak up because some of the people can hear Zulu directly, and for my benefit too, I know Zulu and hear it and speak it, so would you just speak up like Mr Padi is speaking, Mr Malan is speaking up, myself speaking up, Judge de Jager also speaking up.
MR MNYAKENI: I was the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.
MR PADI: Were you a Deputy Chairman of the ANC Youth League at the time of the incident in question, that is on the 21st?
MR MNYAKENI: Deputy Chairman.
MR PADI: Sorry? Yes, my question is were you a Deputy Chairman on the 21st of March 1992?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, you are applying for amnesty for incidents which occurred on this day, can you relate to the Committee the background which led to these incidents?
MR MNYAKENI: To explain briefly, on the 20th of March 1992 we were patrolling, checking for weapons, knives as part of protecting the community. Duhla and other people arrived and they normally carried firearms in the township at which we would warn them not to do so, because they used to harass the community with these weapons.
MR MALAN: Can you tell us who is Duhla?
MR MNYAKENI: I only knew him as Duhla, one of the people who was killed.
MR MALAN: Was it Mr Mnyakeni or Mr Nkhumalo?
MR MNYAKENI: As I mentioned before, I do not know their proper names, I just knew those names that were used in the township.
MR PADI: You may proceed Mr Mnyakeni, what happened thereafter?
MR MNYAKENI: Those firearms were removed from them and thereafter they remained in the township as one of the residents.
MR PADI: Who removed the firearms from them and why?
MR MNYAKENI: It was the comrades and the community. The community was complaining because those firearms were used throughout the night so the community was not at ease.
MR PADI: Can you explain in what way were the firearms used?
MR MNYAKENI: They would just use the firearms to shoot randomly on their way from shebeens. We then removed them from those persons and stored them with other community weapons.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, for the sake of clarity, if you say they were just shooting at random, were they shooting at people or were they just shooting in the area?
MR MNYAKENI: Sometimes it would happen that a person would be injured or killed when they did this, that is why we warned them not to continue.
MR PADI: You may proceed, Mr Mnyakeni.
MR MNYAKENI: On the 20th, they were still waiting for one of them to return from prison and on his return, they then managed to go and kill one of our comrades, Mzibenzi on a Friday evening.
MR PADI: The people ...
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I just have something clear here? These people on coming from shebeens were shooting at random? Would they shoot at ANC people at random, at Inkatha people, or even people not belonging to any political party?
MR MNYAKENI: They were opposed to the ANC, because they used to collaborate with the police.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Were they criminals shooting at random and coming from shebeens?
MR MNYAKENI: We did not have many criminals at the Mandela Park, but they used to be armed with R1 firearms which are used by the police.
MR PADI: To follow up on that, Mr Mnyakeni ...
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed there, you say they were opposed to the ANC, why were they allowed to stay in Mandela Squatter Camp, wasn't that an ANC area?
MR MNYAKENI: It was a community area dominated by the ANC.
MR MALAN: Yes, and if you knew that they were killing people and they were opposed to the ANC, you knew they were killing, shooting at random at people, killing people, you found them with weapons, you say it is R1 weapons, why did you allow them to stay in the township, you disarm them and say "that is fine, you can stay"? Is that what you are telling us?
MR MNYAKENI: We wanted to make them one of us and behave as acceptable members of the community.
MR MALAN: Although they were opposed to the ANC, shooting at the ANC?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, we were trying to build them up. It is just that we did not appreciate, we were opposed to the actions.
MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Padi.
MR PADI: Thank you Honourable Committee Member. Mr Mnyakeni, would you consider these people as some form of a gangster, were they working in a group?
MR MNYAKENI: They were a group working with the police, but I would not call them criminals. They would harass the community, stopping people from town, checking for firearms from those persons and the police would visit them at their homes.
MR PADI: In what way were they working with the police?
MR MNYAKENI: We deduced that from the fact that when we held meetings, they would arrive and a short while thereafter, the police would also come to disturb our meeting and disrupt our meeting. They also carried walkie talkies.
MR PADI: Were these people in any way regarded as police informers by the community?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct. The community ultimately felt that these people were working with the police and they were uneasy about it.
MR PADI: Okay, you may continue. You were still telling us about, you were at the point where they were waiting for one of their members to come from prison you said. Can you continue from there.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why was he arrested?
INTERPRETER: Why was he arrested.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why was this man arrested?
MR MNYAKENI: Housebreaking.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did the police arrest those people working with them?
MR MNYAKENI: No, they were not arrested.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Now how was he arrested then, this member?
MR MNYAKENI: He was arrested in Delmas.
MR PADI: You may continue Mr Mnyakeni.
MR MNYAKENI: On a Friday ...
CHAIRPERSON: I am not getting any translation.
INTERPRETER: Pardon me.
MR MNYAKENI: On a Friday as we were walking along with a brother-in-law to one of them, on that day, they came to fetch the brother-in-law, his name was Luqi, on the pretence that his grandmother had passed away. They then killed one of our comrades, Mr Mzibenzi because we had confiscated their firearms, that was their revenge.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I didn't follow your previous answer, they came to fetch Luqi on the pretence that his mother died or what?
MR MNYAKENI: We were with Luqi, we were sitting at a certain house in the squatter camp and they arrived in a white kombi saying that they had come to fetch Luqi because his grandmother had died at Sundral. That is how they removed him from our midst. Thereafter we went out to patrol and we ended up remaining at one spot until the following day. As we were ...
MR PADI: When you keep referring to us and we, am I understanding you correct to say that you are referring to the ANC Youth League or would you be referring to members of the community? Can you clear that up please.
MR MNYAKENI: It was members of the ANC Youth League who were patrolling at night.
CHAIRPERSON: How many were you?
MR MNYAKENI: Around 12 to 15 of us.
MR PADI: Can I take you back a little bit, Mr Mnyakeni. You said that you confiscated the guns of these people who were staying in Mandela Camp together with yourselves. What was the relationship between say the ANC Youth League and these people after you confiscated their weapons?
MR MNYAKENI: After that, most of them left, it was only one remaining, it was Duhla and his girlfriend, Jane, who remained. The rest returned to Sundral and they only came back when their comrade was killed.
MR PADI: Did they all have shacks in Mandela Park?
MR MNYAKENI: There were four shacks.
MR PADI: You say after you confiscated their weapons, they all left Mandela Park except for the one that you are referring to as Duhla and his girlfriend?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Okay, you may continue Mr Mnyakeni.
MR MNYAKENI: They committed that murder on a Friday by killing Mzibenzi. His throat was slit and his breasts was also removed and he was scraped around the face with a bottle. On the Saturday morning we were planning to go visit Mzibenzi and on our way we met members of the Street Committee who enquired about where we were going and we told them that we were going to see Mzibenzi at which point they informed us that he had been killed. We then went to the scene of the murder and on arrival, we encountered a lot of police. By that time his body had already been removed. We then ...
MR PADI: Who was Mzibenzi, was he a member of the Youth League?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, he was one of our comrades.
MR PADI: Was he not on patrol with you on the Friday of the 20th?
MR MNYAKENI: No, he was not. He was at home.
MR PADI: Okay, you may proceed.
MR MALAN: Sorry, did Mr Mzibenzi have any office in the Youth League?
MR MNYAKENI: No.
MR MALAN: He was an ordinary member?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: He was not the Chair?
MR MNYAKENI: No.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR PADI: You may proceed, what happened thereafter Mr Mnyakeni?
MR MNYAKENI: On our arrival, we discovered that his body had been removed, and we enquired from Tandi, his girlfriend as to what happened. She said she did not know anything, we should enquire from Dungwane.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was Dungwane?
MR MNYAKENI: The person he was with on the day that he was killed.
MR PADI: And what happened thereafter?
MR MNYAKENI: Dungwane then stated that they were on their way to Vicks and they had come upon Duhla and the other people from Sundral. These people enquired from them as to where their firearms were and he responded by telling them to go to the community and enquire from them, at which point they stabbed him and killed him. We asked from Dungwane as to how come he survived and he showed us a wound on his neck, where he had also been stabbed. We then left and proceeded towards a shop whereupon we came upon other comrades and the community. And they were in the company of the people who were alleged to have killed Mzibenzi. We removed these people, we took them to their shack. On our arrival there, we found a blooded knife and Mzibenzi's firearm. It was then decided that they should be taken to the sports ground and they were taken there and assaulted.
MR PADI: The firearm that you found, how did you know that it was Mzibenzi's firearm?
MR MNYAKENI: We knew because it was difficult to fire the weapon, you would have to press it very hard.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But didn't you confiscate all his guns?
MR PADI: The gun that they are referring to is Mzibenzi, it is the one who was, the one who was killed.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh. The gun you now are referring to, is Mzibenzi's gun?
MR PADI: Yes.
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Mnyakeni.
MR MALAN: You say that you knew it was his gun, because that weapon, it was difficult to fire it, you had to press very hard?
MR MNYAKENI: You had to press it very hard.
MR MALAN: Is there any other basis on which you could see that it was Mzibenzi's gun, except pressing it very hard?
MR MNYAKENI: We knew it because it also had selotape on the back.
MR MALAN: Tell us about this selotape. Why didn't you tell that to us? Where was the selotape at the back, where at the back?
MR MNYAKENI: On the butt because it was an old firearm, so it was stuck there to prevent some part of the weapon from falling out.
MR MALAN: Did you load the weapon and fire it to find out whether it was his gun, that you had to press it very hard, after you found it?
MR MNYAKENI: No, we did not. We knew his firearm because he was one of us.
MR MALAN: My question really is, you knew his firearm because it had the selotape around the butt, not because it was very difficult to fire it?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, we knew it. We used to see him carrying it all the time.
MR MALAN: What kind of firearm was this?
MR MNYAKENI: A 9mm.
MR MALAN: What make?
MR MNYAKENI: It was the thicker, longish type, a 12 shooter.
MR MALAN: You don't know what make it was?
MR MNYAKENI: I just know that it was a 9mm firearm.
MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Padi.
MR PADI: Thank you Committee Member. You may proceed, what happened after that Mr Mnyakeni?
MR MNYAKENI: The community decided that they should be taken to the sports ground and on our arrival there, they were assaulted and burnt to death.
MR PADI: Did you take part in this assault.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Who were taken to the sports grounds?
MR MNYAKENI: The person that I knew was Duhla.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Anybody else?
MR MNYAKENI: No, that was the only person whose name I knew because he was staying there.
MR PADI: How many people were taken to the sports ground?
MR MNYAKENI: Two.
MR MALAN: Where did the community decide to take them to the sports ground?
MR MNYAKENI: We were at their shack.
MR MALAN: It wasn't the community at the shack, it was you and a few others?
MR MNYAKENI: No, it was the comrades and the community.
MR MALAN: How many people were at the shack?
MR MNYAKENI: There were too many, I cannot estimate the number.
MR MALAN: All right, thank you.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, maybe just to clarify this, when you left sis Tandi's place, you went looking for the people, for the people who have allegedly killed Mzibenzi?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: And you met with other people, some of whom were members of the Youth League, coming with these people, and some members of the community, is that your evidence?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Does that clarify that? Thank you Chair. Yes, you may proceed then, what happened after that?
MR MNYAKENI: They were assaulted and doused with petrol and burnt at the sports ground. As they were still being burnt, the police approached and the rest of us fled and we left them there at the sports ground.
MR PADI: Did you take part in the assault of these people?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, I did.
MR PADI: How did you participate?
MR MNYAKENI: I used an iron bar to assault them and I also took part in burning them.
MR PADI: Where did you get this iron bar?
MR MNYAKENI: I picked it up along the road.
MR PADI: Okay, you say that you participated in setting them alight. Did you participate in the setting alight of both people?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, I will say so because they both died after being set alight.
CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is did you participate, don't say "I can say so", did you or did you not?
MR MNYAKENI: I only took part in burning the first person, the other person was set alight by other comrades.
MR PADI: Can you explain to the Committee your role, what is it exactly that you did in setting this one person that you are referring to, alight?
MR MNYAKENI: I assaulted him with an iron rod, after admitting that he was fetched from Sundral to kill comrades here at Mandela Squatter Camp. Thereafter I doused him with petrol and set him alight.
MR PADI: You are saying that after hitting him with the iron, he confessed that he was brought from Sundral to come and kill comrades, is that what you are saying?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct, he confessed to that effect.
MR PADI: Did he say who instructed him to do that?
MR MNYAKENI: He said he was fetched by Duhla.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Can we just finish off something, you said you struck him with an iron, is that correct?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you use an axe?
MR MNYAKENI: No, it was only amabuthu who carried such weapons. I only had an iron bar.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you instructed to go back home and fetch petrol?
MR MNYAKENI: No, when the people went to the sports ground, some of them had their petrol in their possession.
JUDGE DE JAGER: At the trial they gave evidence that you were instructed by Agness to go and fetch petrol? Didn't that happen?
MR MNYAKENI: No, the only thing that Agness told us was that Mzibenzi had been killed, and that was when we went to Mzibenzi's home to verify that information. I only got the petrol that was in the sports ground, had been brought by the people, and I took it to douse him with.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, I see further on that they said that she asked you to go home and fetch petrol, but you then said "no, that is too far" and you went to a red motor car where you fetched, where you found petrol? Is that correct?
MR MNYAKENI: No, the petrol was not fetched from that car.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did the petrol come from?
MR MNYAKENI: It was brought by other comrades.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you. Didn't you force the deceased to drink petrol?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I did not do that, I just doused him with it and set him alight.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did anybody force them to drink petrol?
MR MNYAKENI: I do not recall any person forcing them to drink petrol. They were just doused with it and set alight, because they were tied up.
JUDGE DE JAGER: All right, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Rusty or Mgerigera do it? Do you know them?
MR MNYAKENI: I do know them.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they present?
MR MNYAKENI: I was with Mgerigera.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Padi.
MR PADI: Thank you Honourable Chair. You were still saying that the other one said that it was Duhla who fetched him to come and kill comrades at Mandela, is that correct?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Duhla is the one who was together, the one who was still being assaulted together with the person who was making a confession?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Then the person that you are referring to, the person that made a confession who made a confession, he is the one that you doused with petrol and set alight?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Then what did you do thereafter, Mr Mnyakeni?
MR MNYAKENI: Thereafter we were told that a hippo was approached, and we fled to our shacks.
MR PADI: Was that the end of your involvement in the killing of these two people?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, that was the end.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, you were charged and also convicted for other crimes of kidnapping of Mongezi Dunga and Brenda Ngabo. Can you explain to the Committee what happened to these two people?
MR MNYAKENI: I do know Mongezi, but I do not recall kidnapping him. I only know about Brenda who was my girlfriend and she was one of those people, she was always in the company of those people and I used to warn her about that.
MR PADI: Do you know if she was kidnapped, if she was forcibly removed from wherever she was and taken to the grounds where these two people were killed?
MR MNYAKENI: We took her, for her to point out the homes of the people who resided at Sundral but we did not kidnap her.
MR PADI: That was before the incident at the grounds?
MR MNYAKENI: That was after the incident, I met a certain lady by the name of Mapole.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, you told us that after setting the one person alight, you heard that a hippo was coming and that is when you ran away. At what stage did you get Brenda Ngabo, can you try to explain to the Committee the sequence of events that led to you taking Brenda and instructing her to go and show you where the others were?
MR MNYAKENI: We met her on the way from the sports ground to Mapole's and she approached. I called her because I knew she knew those people who killed Mzibenzi.
MR PADI: Was Brenda your girlfriend at this stage?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes.
MR PADI: And in relation to Mongezi, do you know if he was kidnapped or if he was taken by any force from any place, whatever?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I was only shocked when he testified in court that he had been kidnapped by me. I do not recall having him in my possession or being anywhere near him.
MR PADI: Could it be possible Mr Mnyakeni, that Mr Mongezi was kidnapped by other people, other than you?
MR MNYAKENI: It is possible, because there were many comrades at the Mandela Camp.
MR PADI: Do you have anything to say Mr Mnyakeni, to the relatives of the people ...
JUDGE DE JAGER: Before you come to that, about the kidnapping of Mongezi Dunga, you were not involved in any kidnapping of Dunga? Is that correct?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I did not take part in kidnapping him.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You don't know even if he was kidnapped or not?
MR MNYAKENI: I only heard it from him as he gave his testimony in court.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you didn't make any attempt to associate with people kidnapping him or anything like that?
MR MNYAKENI: I do not even know who kidnapped him.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And Brenda, you say that she wasn't kidnapped?
MR MNYAKENI: I called her and she came on her own free accord.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You didn't force her to go with you?
MR MNYAKENI: No, we requested her to show us where those people resided.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And you never assaulted her or slapped her or joined in an attack on her?
MR MNYAKENI: I did assault her.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you assault her?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why?
MR MNYAKENI: She was at that time not being truthful, she maintained that she was not coming from Sundral, where in actual fact, she was.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you assault her?
MR MNYAKENI: I slapped her.
MR MALAN: Did you attack her with a knife?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I did not have a knife on me on that day.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Who stabbed her?
MR MNYAKENI: I do not know with regards to the other comrades.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see that she was injured by stabbing?
MR MNYAKENI: I did see at some point and I told the comrades that they should let her go.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any visible injuries on her?
MR MNYAKENI: I saw one on her thigh.
MR MALAN: When did you observe this injury on her thigh?
MR MNYAKENI: She came to show me that injury.
MR MALAN: When?
MR MNYAKENI: At that time when we were talking to her.
MR PADI: Thank you. Mr Mnyakeni, do you have anything that you want to say to the families of the people that you killed or to the victims of your actions of that particular day?
MR MALAN: Are they here? I am speaking to you Mr Padi, are they here?
MR PADI: I don't have any knowledge of that.
MR MALAN: Does he know them?
MR PADI: I haven't ascertained that.
MR MALAN: Can they be identified? Is there any way this message could get to them?
MR PADI: I have no knowledge of that.
MR MALAN: Now why do you want him to say something to the families?
MR PADI: So it forms part of the record in case their identities are ascertained in any way Honourable Member.
CHAIRPERSON: They will only know our decision, they will not see the record.
MR PADI: As it pleases the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you should have been aware when we started, wanting to know from Ms Thabethe about the victims, what efforts were made to trace the victims and all that, which suggested that the victims were not present today.
MR PADI: Yes. Thank you Mr Chair. That will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mnyakeni, I just want to ascertain, maybe I didn't hear correctly, exactly what were the reasons for killing these people, the two people that you killed?
MR MNYAKENI: They were killed by the comrades and for the reason that they also had a relationship with the police.
MS THABETHE: Do you know if they belonged to any political organisation?
MR MNYAKENI: From my observation of their actions, they were working in collaboration with the police, they were always supported by the police.
MS THABETHE: Do you know Mr Mngomezulu, Foreman Mngomezulu?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, I do.
MS THABETHE: Was he also present when these people were killed?
MR MNYAKENI: There were many members of the community present, I did not take note of who was present or not. I met Mr Mngomezulu at the police station when he was arrested for the same crime.
MS THABETHE: Yes, and then with regard to the kidnapping, you have just given evidence that you did not kidnap the others, except your girlfriend, is that correct?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MS THABETHE: Now, my question is how would you say that the kidnapping of your girlfriend is political?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but he didn't kidnap her, he called her and she came out of her free will?
MS THABETHE: So, it is a denial of kidnapping, would you say Mr Mnyakeni?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, it would be an assault, he slapped her, but he did not admit kidnapping her.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I withdraw my question. I have no further questions Mr Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Padi, before you re-examine, I would give Members of the Committee to ask questions if they have any so that when you re-examine, you cover everything. Mr Malan, do you have anything?
MR MALAN: This comrade of yours that was killed, Mr what is his name, Mzibenzi, you say that he had no office in the Youth League? Was he not the Secretary of the Youth League?
MR MNYAKENI: He was still to be elected.
MR MALAN: So he was not the Secretary?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR MALAN: Was he related to Mr Foreman Mngomezulu?
MR MNYAKENI: No, they were not related, but sis Tandi, Mzibenzi's girlfriend was related to Mr Mngomezulu.
MR MALAN: Sorry, whose girlfriend was related?
MR MNYAKENI: Mzibenzi's girlfriend.
JUDGE DE JAGER: How was she related?
MR MNYAKENI: She called him uncle.
MR MALAN: There was evidence at the trial that he was the son-in-law of Mr Mngomezulu, in other words he was married to his daughter?
MR MNYAKENI: I did not hear that in court.
MR MALAN: When did you get all these admissions from the people that you burnt, that they collaborated with the police, that they had killed Mzibenzi, when did they admit to this?
MR MNYAKENI: On that day when we were with them, they even said that they can be arrested, but they are going to be released.
MR MALAN: Did you confront them, did they admit to killing your comrade?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes. And they mentioned others who had been in their company.
MR MALAN: Did they admit to mutilating his body?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes.
MR MALAN: You never saw the body?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, I did not, but I only heard from sis Tandi.
MR MALAN: Now, can you just explain to us what exactly, what parts were removed? How was his body mutilated?
MR MNYAKENI: His throat was removed, also his breast was also removed. His face was also scraped with a glass object or metal object.
MR MALAN: His throat was removed? How was that done, do you know, I don't want to get into the gory, but I don't understand that.
MR MNYAKENI: Sis Tandi told me that it had just been cut out and his left breast was also cut.
MR MALAN: These two, or just tell me is Brenda and Mongezi in any way related? Mongezi Dunga and Brenda? Are they of the same family or not?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I do not know, but they resided in one shack.
MR MALAN: Brenda and Mongezi in one shack?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes.
MR MALAN: And these two people that were killed, that is Duhla and the other one, Mr Mnyakeni and Nkhumalo, where were they living?
MR MNYAKENI: They all come from Sundral.
MR MALAN: Yes, but where were they staying in Mandela Squatter Camp? You took Brenda to point out where they were living, how far was that shack from Brenda's shack?
MR MNYAKENI: It was quite a distance because you had to cross several streets.
MR MALAN: So these two people weren't living with Brenda and Mongezi?
MR MNYAKENI: No. Duhla resided in his shack with Jane.
MR MALAN: Do you know that Mr Mngomezulu gave evidence that Mzibenzi was his son-in-law, I think he referred to him, Mzibenzi was his son-in-law? Is that not correct?
MR MNYAKENI: I would say he could have called her his daughter, because she used to call him uncle.
MR MALAN: Can you tell us the role of the Street Committee in this killing. Were you a member of the Street Committee?
MR MNYAKENI: The Street Committee was made up of all the people who used to be in a position to solve community problems. We as the Youth were not in a position to do that. That is why those people were elected in the Street Committee.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you were not a member of the Street Committee?
MR MNYAKENI: I was in the Youth League, not the Street Committee.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And Mngomezulu, what was his function? Was he in the Youth League too?
MR MNYAKENI: I will say he was a member of the Street Committee, because he used to attend their meetings.
MR MALAN: Who is referred to as Samuel Mnyakeni, do you know the name?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I do not.
MR MALAN: Do you know Simon Nkuna?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, I saw him in court.
MR MALAN: Is he not Mnyakeni, Samuel Mnyakeni?
MR MNYAKENI: No I don't know.
MR MALAN: And you are not referred to as Samuel Mnyakeni? Thank you Chair, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you involved in the killing of both deceased?
MR MNYAKENI: I was involved in the death of one.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why was the other one killed?
MR MNYAKENI: They were all together with Mzibenzi was killed, because the one fetched the others to come to Mandela Squatter Camp to kill comrades.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did the two of them kill Mzibenzi?
MR MNYAKENI: It was not just the two of them, there were more than that.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And the reason for killing the two deceased, wasn't the true reason to revenge the death of Mzibenzi?
MR MNYAKENI: No, it was not revenge. Those people were uncontrollable, they used to do whatever they wanted in the community.
JUDGE DE JAGER: They were killed, because they acted like criminals in the community, they did whatever they wanted to do?
MR MNYAKENI: Besides that, they collaborated with the police. They would inform on us, for instance when we were holding meetings.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Who told you that they were informers, that they informed on you?
MR MNYAKENI: It was from their actions and the walkie talkies that they had, as well as the firearms that they carried, which led us to that belief.
JUDGE DE JAGER: When you confiscated the firearms, why didn't you confiscate the walkie talkies?
MR MNYAKENI: After confiscating their weapons, they left the area, they then returned later on, that is when they had those walkie talkies.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did Mzibenzi go with them? Was he a friend of theirs?
MR MNYAKENI: He was not going with them, he was in Dungwane's company.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Dungwane was, who was he and did he associate with these, with the deceased?
MR MNYAKENI: Dungwane was Mzibenzi's friend.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was he also a comrade, a member of the Youth League?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, he was an ANC member, but he would normally be with amabuthu.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why would he have a friendship with these collaborators with the police? Maybe I am confusing the names now.
MR MALAN: Are you getting interpretation?
CHAIRPERSON: Very slowly. Your interpretation is very slow.
INTERPRETER: I was still verifying something, I beg your pardon. He said Dungwane came from the same area as the people from Sundral.
JUDGE DE JAGER: All right.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you may proceed.
MR MALAN: I think I wanted to ask that same question, so Dungwane did keep company with those people from Sundral? He knew them?
MR MNYAKENI: He knew them because he mentioned all of the people who had been involved in killing Mzibenzi by name.
MR MALAN: Did he keep company with them at any stage, did he go with them?
MR MNYAKENI: No, I had never seen him with them.
MR MALAN: How did he know their names?
MR MNYAKENI: I already mentioned that he was also from Sundral, the same place that they came from.
MR MALAN: If he escaped them, and he knew on the 20th already that Mzibenzi had been killed, why did he not report that to you on the 20th already, because he was present, he got injured, he knew their names, but he doesn't report to the community or to the structures? Why not do you think?
MR MNYAKENI: I do not know, because we only met him at sis Tandi's place the following morning, but we learnt that amabuthu had already learnt of Mzibenzi's death before.
MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Was Mzibenzi killed in the evening?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You earlier in your evidence mentioned Luqi was fetched in a kombi on the pretence that the grandmother had died, what happened to Luqi, who is he?
MR MNYAKENI: Luqi was one of our comrades.
CHAIRPERSON: Who fetched him?
MR MNYAKENI: It was Sautane and other people from Sundral.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he fetched by people from Sundral or Sundra?
MR MNYAKENI: Sundral.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Padi?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mnyakeni, did you assault both the people who were killed, with the iron bar which you had?
MR MNYAKENI: I assaulted one.
MR PADI: Which one are you referring to?
MR MNYAKENI: The other one, not Duhla.
MR PADI: Did you at any stage assault Duhla?
MR MNYAKENI: Duhla was tied up a little distance away from the person I was assaulting.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, you said that these people collaborated with the police, was it a view that was held by the community in general that these people were informers or what was the general perspective of the community of Mandela against these people or in relation to these people?
CHAIRPERSON: No, we will rather say Mandela Squatter Camp, we cannot be referring to the former President now.
MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chair. May I repeat my question again?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
MR PADI: Mr Mnyakeni, you said that these people collaborated with the police. Was it a general view that was held by the community that these people were informers?
MR MNYAKENI: It was not just an opinion, the community knew that they collaborated with the police.
MR PADI: So you say that the community of Mandela Squatter Camp knew for a fact that these people were informers?
MR MNYAKENI: That is correct.
MR PADI: Was that one of the reasons why they were killed, or was that the reason why they were killed?
MR MNYAKENI: It was one of the reasons, because they also killed Mzibenzi and they were harassing the community, as well as informing on the community.
MR PADI: Would I be correct to say that these people were regarded as enemies of the community?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, from their behaviour.
MR PADI: And that the incident which triggered their killing was that they killed Mzibenzi?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, and also for the fact that they had been pre-warned time and time again that they should stop their behaviour or well as for the fact that wherever they were, the police would be close behind their heels.
MR PADI: Thank you Mr Mnyakeni, thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI
MR MALAN: May I just on this point, on your last question, you say they were warned time and time again, but you allowed them to stay, you did not tell them "go back to Sundral where you live"? Is that correct?
MR MNYAKENI: Yes, we did not chase people away from the community, we wanted to live together in a cooperative manner, but then they could not live with other people.
MR MALAN: These are people who walk with guns, they shot randomly over the place, killing people, wounding people,
working together with the police, walking with walkie talkies, informing on the community, the community knowing it for a fact, and yet you say we want to live in peace, they can live in Mandela Squatter Camp? Is that your evidence? All of this goes without saying, it sounds normal?
MR MNYAKENI: We were trying to restore ubuntu in them.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But if you had this noble idea, why did you kill them then?
MR MNYAKENI: The committed too many offences against the community and after their weapons had been removed from them, we presumed that they had reformed, but we didn't know that they were hatching a plan to kill Mzibenzi.
CHAIRPERSON: You may continue Mr Padi?
MR PADI: I have no further questions, Mr Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mnyakeni.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Have you further evidence to lead in respect of Mnyakeni?
MR PADI: I have no further evidence to lead, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: That concludes?
MR PADI: That concludes the case.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to argue?
MR PADI: Yes, I am in a position to argue.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: I suppose as always?
MS THABETHE: Certainly.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Padi?
MR PADI IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chair. The evidence that was led by Mr Mnyakeni is that they killed two people because, he said primarily because one of their comrades were killed by the name of Mzibenzi. That is the incident that triggered the killing of Absolom Mnyakeni and Patrick Nkhumalo. These are the very people who were regarded as informers, or who were seen by the community as informers. In fact from the evidence of Mr Mnyakeni, the community knew for a fact that these people were informers. Now, my first submission is that the act which was committed by Mr Mnyakeni, is in fact ...
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you just on that, the community believed or not only believed, thought they had proof that these people were informers?
MR PADI: That is my submission.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And yet they allowed them to stay with them, to watch what they are doing and to run to the police day after day?
MR PADI: From the evidence of Mr Mnyakeni, these people, the guns were taken from them initially and the idea was to bring them into the community, to make them part of the community, not enemies of the community. That attempt to convert them into better members of the community, that effort failed, and that was shown by the ultimate killing of Mzibenzi. That was the particular incident that triggered their killing, but it should not be seen in isolation, because this was the community that was keen to live in peace with people who proved not to be worthy of living as such, but however, the community went to an extent of accommodating them. As a result, they proved the community otherwise and went ahead to kill Mzibenzi. Hence it led to their ultimate death. It is actually my submission Honourable Chair, that the act that Mr Mnyakeni committed, is associated with a political objective.
I would refer the Honourable Commission to the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act on Section 20(3)(b) which is the Section that states that in order for an action to be seen to have been, or rather let me read this -
"... whether a particular act, omission or offence contemplated in subparagraph (2), is an act associated with a political objective, shall be decided with reference to the following criteria."
Then referring to subsection (b) -
"... the context within which the act, omission or offence took place and in particular whether the act, omission or offence was committed in the course of a political uprising, disturbance or event or a reaction thereto."
My submission is that the act was associated or - yes, was associated with a political objective, in a sense that it was a political objective of the ANC to eliminate opposition, and it was common practice on the grassroots that informers and people who hindered the progress towards democracy by either informing against the community or the liberation movements of the time, should be eliminated in whatever way possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Not rather people who formed a hinderance in the peaceful living of a community, would be enemies of the ANC as well?
MR PADI: That is correct and I am indebted to the Honourable Chairperson. As a result of that, what I was saying is although the incident that triggered the killing of these people, was the killing of Mzibenzi, that would in one way be seen as a revenge killing, on the other hand, it would be seen as complying with the objectives of the ANC at the time in a sense that they were eliminating people who were disturbing the peaceful living of the community at the time. As a result, it is my submission that the act that has been committed by Mr Mnyakeni, is definitely associated with a political objective. I would go further to include the assault of Brenda Ngabo, because it all happened in the same context, that the same submissions would be included in the assault of Brenda Ngabo, Honourable Chair.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was Brenda regarded as an enemy of the community?
MR PADI: She was not regarded as an enemy of the community, Honourable Committee Member. From the evidence that Mr Mnyakeni gave, Brenda knew these people, knew where they were staying. The reason why she was called upon, was to identify or to tell Mr Mnyakeni and his company at the time, where other members of this group of Duhla would be found. She started resisting and according to his evidence, she lied about not coming from a place where she came from. That is where the assault came in, in order to get her to give out more information, so that these enemies of the community would be eliminated.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But suppose she was an ANC member or supporter, could you assault her and then ask for amnesty, if she was a member of your own party?
MR PADI: Honourable Committee Member, if a person is a member of the organisation, and he either disturbs the living of the community or in one way or another, hinders the peaceful living of the community, then yes, it would be acceptable to assault him and then ask for amnesty.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did she do that?
MR PADI: Pardon me?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did Brenda do that?
MR PADI: According to the evidence of Mr Mnyakeni, she refused to give out information which was required in order to see to it that as many as possible of the killers of Mzibenzi and that of the people who disturbed the peace in the Mandela Squatter Camp were eliminated.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But on the other hand, she voluntarily went with him, didn't resist at all?
MR PADI: Yes, the information only came out or the assault happened at the beginning of the whole process. The going together with them, came later, after it had been driven by the assault.
MR MALAN: But was the evidence not here that he assaulted her because she lied?
MR PADI: That was the evidence.
MR MALAN: Yes. Not because there was any specific objective at that stage, she simply denied that she came from a certain place and that is why he assaulted her, on his own evidence?
MR PADI: That is correct Honourable Committee.
MR MALAN: But there was no political objective related to that assault, according to the evidence?
MR PADI: My submission is that there is. In a sense that at the time of the assault on Brenda, that was immediately after the attack on the two people who died.
MR MALAN: No, I think you misunderstand me. I understand the political context, broadly speaking, but the Act also talks about a political objective. What did he mean to achieve by assaulting Brenda?
MR PADI: Honourable Committee Member, maybe the right way to phrase it would be that the act was committed in a political context.
MR MALAN: Yes, that we know. My question is, was there a political objective tied to the act of assault? Not context, objective, did he hope to achieve anything by assaulting her?
MR PADI: My submission is yes, he did hope to achieve a political objective in that. In that he was hoping to get information that would eventually lead to the finding of the people who were causing disturbances in the community. By lying, she hindered that process of getting the people who were seen as the enemies of the community at that time. My further submission is that the act in question ...
MR MALAN: Sorry, I am not sure that I am happy with this information, I am looking for a political objective. Was the evidence not that the assault there was after these two people had been doused and set alight, after they had fled, got hold of Brenda, on his evidence, that is not Brenda's version in court, but let's assume that is the evidence here. And then he was simply trying to find out where did these people stay and were there others with them. What, I am not sure that I really understood what he was trying to say to us.
MR PADI: My understanding of his evidence Honourable Committee Member was that at the time of calling Brenda, they wanted to ascertain where were these people living, because these people were not, they were not only two, they were operating in a group, so they wanted to find out where the others were. That was at least my understanding of the evidence.
My second submission is that Mr Mnyakeni made a full disclosure in relation to the incidents for which he is applying for amnesty and my final submission is that the act was committed within the time provisions which are required by the Act. Therefore I submit that Mr Mnyakeni complied with all the provisions of the Act for the granting of amnesty and I request the Honourable Amnesty Committee to grant him amnesty for the said incidents. Thank you.
MR MALAN: That would exclude the assault on Mongezi and the kidnapping of Mongezi, and it would exclude kidnapping of Brenda, because ...
MR PADI: That is correct Your Worship, because he did not admit to that, so it would definitely exclude the kidnapping of Brenda, it would exclude the kidnapping of Mongezi and the assault of Mongezi.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. I think everything has been said. I would be wasting the Committee's time if I were to repeat. In short, I have no submissions and I leave everything in the capable hands of the Committee, unless the Committee wants me to address them on a specific issue.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Padi and your client, Mnyakeni, the Committee reserves its decision. It shall be communicated to you in writing as soon as the same has been done.
MR PADI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We shall endeavour to speed it up, but we cannot give you time periods, but we will do it as soon as possible.
MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: I see, you've got another one, Phahlane to lead. Is he here?
MR PADI: Mr Phahlane is here, Honourable Chair. I have a problem in that I haven't had a chance to consult with him as yet mainly because yesterday he came late, I couldn't see him, by the time I left, he was not here. And even today, he came late, arguing that he didn't have money to come here. I wonder if the Honourable Committee could give me some time to consult with him, if that would be okay with the Committee?
JUDGE DE JAGER: When did you receive instructions to appear on his behalf?
MR PADI: I received instructions on last week, Thursday.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why couldn't you go out to Leeukop to see him or wherever he is kept?
MR PADI: He is not in Leeukop, Your Worship.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Is he not in prison any more?
MR PADI: No, he is not in prison.
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, actually I was also about to request that there is a request from the prison with regard to Tinyane, the matter of Tinyane, that because of time, so I wanted to request that we start with the matter of Tinyane, because of time constraints, because Phahlane is not in prison, so we can always do him after the prison time constraints.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could the prison officers perhaps tell us why they were late this morning, what was the reason for that?
MS THABETHE: Should I quickly facilitate that?
JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I think they can hear me. Can someone stand up and please tell us why they were late? Who are in charge of the prisoners here?
POLICE OFFICER: Sorry, we are not from Leeukop, from Johannesburg prison.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why were you late this morning, what was the reason for coming round about, well it was passed 10 I think when you arrived?
POLICE OFFICER: Us, no round about nine o'clock we were already here. From Johannesburg?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, we asked whether any of the prisoners were present and they said no, they didn't arrive.
POLICE OFFICER: No, we were the first here from all the prisons.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Could we then say, for tomorrow, could we have the prisoners with your cooperation, please be here at nine in the morning? Is that possible?
POLICE OFFICER: We are having a problem with locking up sir, I mean with opening up the prisoners. We open at eight and then from eight, we must still count them, and then we must give them breakfast and then maybe say round about half past, twenty to nine, we leave the prison, and then we must go to Baragwanath and maybe Johannesburg court whatsoever, because we are using one transport.
CHAIRPERSON: If we say then that we start at half past nine, would that be a reasonable time?
POLICE OFFICER: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Please, we want your cooperation because we know under what circumstances you are working, they are difficult, but if we could have cooperation between the two of us, we can facilitate the process.
POLICE OFFICER: We will try our best, we will do that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
POLICE OFFICER: Okay, thank you.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And at what time should they be back at prison?
POLICE OFFICER: We lock up at half past three.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Half past?
POLICE OFFICER: Three, half past three.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you must leave here at three o'clock?
POLICE OFFICER: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, that would make it very difficult for us to finish this roll.
POLICE OFFICER: We don't have problems if you finish off later, maybe at five or six, we don't have a problem with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Could we hear this last guy, Tinyane, who is in prison?
POLICE OFFICER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much. We will start with him immediately and release him as soon as he is finished.
POLICE OFFICER: Thank you sir.
