Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. My name is Motata. On my left I have Judge de Jager and on my right I have Adv Bosman. Today the schedule reads that we would hear the application of Mr Richardson. From our discussions with the legal representatives in Chambers, it would appear that we would hear the application of Richardson today and tomorrow, and if we do not fishing tomorrow with the application, we shall reschedule it for Thursday. There are however other matters that have to be heard, we said those matters will come in on Wednesday and we will try our utmost that all these matters should be disposed of on that day. We would then request the legal representatives to place their names on record and for who they are appearing for.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Tony Richard, I appear for the applicant, Mr Richardson.

CHAIRPERSON: There would appear to be some background noise, I don't know where it emanates from. What is that supposed to mean? There is some background noise, I don't think it is related to this hearing, please minimise such noise. I apologise, I believe it is the translation. Could you come again, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Sorry Chairperson, my name is Tony Richard, I represent the applicant, Mr Richardson, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, thank you, my name is Semenya, I am assisted by Bopape on instructions of Seredi Mavundla and Partners and I appear on behalf of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Semenya.

MS MBUYISA: Chairperson, my name is Zanyile Mbuyisa, I appear on behalf of the victims as well as the families of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently it would be vague if we just said victims, the application as I read it refers to three people who have been killed. When you say victims, are you victims in respect of all?

MS MBUYISA: Correct Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR ALLI: Thank you Judge, my name if Fyas Alli, I am colleague with Zanyile Mbuyisa, I am also representing the various families, the victims in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are holding the same brief?

MR ALLI: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, I am the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready to begin Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, I call the applicant and I ask that he be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we call in the applicant, I think it would be proper that we should know up front what you are applying for, let's have it on record up front what you are applying for.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, the first act which within the meaning of the legislation for which amnesty is applied, is the murder and abduction of Stompie Sepei.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Richard, can't we try and have it chronological? As far as I could see, the murder of Lolo Sono was the first incident?

MR RICHARD: I was taking it as it appears on page 2 of the record, that is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We not - that's why we want it up front, we need not just follow what is on paper here, but the chronological order would assist us.

MR RICHARD: Very well. Lolo Sono and Anthony Tshabalala are two persons that the applicant admits being involved and acting in concert in their killing and abduction.

CHAIRPERSON: Abduction and killing?

MR RICHARD: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose you've got to abduct before you kill?

MR RICHARD: Well, the taking of somebody against his will, is abduction.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I say shouldn't the order be applying for abduction and killing?

MR RICHARD: Correct Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And that happened in October 1998?

MR RICHARD: Correct, October, November 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Why I am asking that is because if you can look at Sono and Tshabalala, there are two dates there, October 1988 and then there is December 1989?

MR RICHARD: Nothing happened in 1989, it was all 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you.

MR RICHARD: By January 1989 the events had concluded. Then, there is the next event of Quqi Zwane, also known as - I will come to that in evidence, it is unnecessary now. There the applicant admits being party to her killing and prior to her killing, taking her away with him to the place where she was killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that also abduction, Mr Richard, can't we just have it in legal terms, what you are applying for?

MR RICHARD: According to the evidence that will be led, there was no forceful taking, but within the context of an act or omission, there might have been a false representation made as to why she was accompanying them to where she was taken to be killed, that might constitute abduction in terms of the conditions.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be killing by consent of the person killed?

MR RICHARD: To take an example, if I induce and persuade somebody to accompany me somewhere, and I have the intention to kill ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am just thinking that if I were at this stage, to grant amnesty for that, how would I phrase it?

MR RICHARD: The legislation requires that there be an act or an omission that constitutes a crime or a delict. In this particular case, the deceased went with the applicant and those that assisted him in the act, to the place where she was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if it is by false pretences, wouldn't that be abduction or kidnapping?

MR RICHARD: That is why I say abduction.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR RICHARD: Then the other matter which was part of the sequence, and the victim in this case, was not killed, that is Lerothodi Ikaneng.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think the next one would be the abduction of Stompie, Kgase, Mono and Mekgwe?

MR RICHARD: Correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On the 29th of December?

MR RICHARD: In that case, the sequence of events that will be led is that there was an event at the applicant's home, during the course of which two ANC cadres were killed as well as one Fanie Pretorius, a South African Policeman at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose it would be tidier if we would have it in the following manner, that we say the first incident I am applying for is the kidnapping and killing of so and so, then in that order, because we are apparently now getting evidence of what obtained, in stead of what the applicant is applying for.

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, may I finish. On his release from the South African Police, he found the two deceased at the home of the implicated person, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and from there, he maintained the kidnapping and abduction of them and killed them in conjunction with others.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, is he also applying for amnesty for the killing of the two cadres?

MR RICHARD: No, he did not kill the cadres. He was present, but had no part in their killing, but it is part of the act which happened over a number of weeks. That means when we deal with dates, the killing was a number of weeks after the abduction.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he form common purpose with those people?

MR RICHARD: The common purpose to - after the shooting between the police and the cadres, he was taken into custody.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I follow.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Richard, I don't know whether my colleagues have the same problem that I have, but my difficulty is that we are trying to establish exactly for which crimes your client is asking amnesty. The evidence we can listen to later, but you seem to be confusing the facts that you will put forward, with the actual crimes. Can you not identify he is asking for murder and abduction of Sono, murder and abduction of Tshabalala, abduction and murder of Quqi Zwane and then as far as the two cadres are concerned, it would seem as though he is not going to apply for amnesty?

MR RICHARD: He does not apply for amnesty for the deaths of the two cadres, but he does apply for amnesty for the deaths of the two deceased, which he was party to killing, that was Lolo Sono and Anthony Tshabalala as I have ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: But we have that already. The next, we have the abduction and kidnapping of the four youngsters. Then the assaults on them?

MR RICHARD: I haven't yet dealt with the assaults on the four youngsters.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly listen and then confirm whether this is what you are applying for, because that is what I elicited from the application. You have dealt with the abduction and murder of Lolo Sono, that is application 1. Secondly the abduction and murder of Zwane, then the abduction of Stompie, Kgase, Mono and Mekgwe and the next one is the murder of Stompie and then the attempted murder of Ikaneng. Are those the six categories you are applying for amnesty?

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, to correct the impression, Mr Sono and Mr Tshabalala were separate from the Sepei and the abductions associated with that event and weren't part of that event. They as I explained, and as the evidence will establish, were kidnapped and held at the Madikizela-Mandela household earlier.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, we don't want details now Mr Richard.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want that now, we just want the applications, what you are applying for, and then the details will come from the applicant himself.

MR RICHARD: And then at that stage, I leave the Sono and Tshabalala events.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, are you not applying for amnesty for those as well?

MR RICHARD: I am. I have said that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, that was the first incident. The second incident was the Zwane incident?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: The third incident the kidnapping of the four youngsters.

MR RICHARD: Which I have not yet dealt with?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but I am asking you whether you are confirming that now?

MR RICHARD: I am confirming that, yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. The fourth incident is the assault on the four youngsters?

MR RICHARD: And their abduction, yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. The next one, the fifth incident, is the murder of Stompie?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And the sixth one is the murder of Ikaneng, attempted murder of Ikaneng?

MR RICHARD: Attempted murder.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, those are the six different incidents that you are applying for?

MR RICHARD: Correct Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What language would your client speak? Mr Richard, what language would your client speak?

MR RICHARDSON: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand Mr Richardson. Please give us your full names?

MR RICHARDSON: My name is Jerry Vusumsi Richardson.

JERRY VUSUMSI RICHARDSON: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you, may I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Richard. Mr Richardson, when did you first become associated with the African National Congress?

CHAIRPERSON: He has never said he was associated with the African National Congress? He has never said so? As him, are you associated with the African National Congress.

MR RICHARD: Are you associated with the African National Congress?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When did you first become associated with the African National Congress?

MR RICHARDSON: I started in 1975.

MR RICHARD: Who suggested that you join the African National Congress?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Boy Nkosi.

MR RICHARD: And what did he request you to do for the organisation?

MR RICHARDSON: Boy Nkosi told me that he would bring Mrs Mandela and bring the people to come and stay at my place and those people would later cross the borders.

MR RICHARD: When did you first meet Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: In 1975.

MR RICHARD: Now, you state that you were requested to offer accommodation or sanctuary to ANC cadres. How often did you do that?

MR RICHARDSON: So many times.

MR RICHARD: Was it once a year or five times or ten times a year?

MR RICHARDSON: About five times a year or even ten times a year.

MR RICHARD: But do you remember precisely when and how often or the best you can say is often?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot say for sure, I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Now, during that time, how often did you meet with Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: We would meet once a week.

MR RICHARD: Was that from 1975 onwards or from when onwards?

MR RICHARDSON: From 1975 up to 1986.

MR RICHARD: And then what happened in 1986?

MR RICHARDSON: In 1986 the Mandela United was formed, the group.

MR RICHARD: This Football Club, the Mandela United, what were its various functions? It had more than one function?

MR RICHARDSON: They were responsible for various tasks because that group was supposed to be with Mrs Mandela all the time.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, I cannot hear the translation. They were supposed to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently that translation was garbled, could you repeat yourself, Mr Richardson?

MR RICHARD: What were the functions of the Mandela United Football Team?

MR RICHARDSON: Most of the time, this Football Club was supposed to be with Mrs Mandela, be with her whenever she was going to the rallies or the funerals.

CHAIRPERSON: What would be its main function, first, let's start with that, not mostly this would happen. What was this Mandela Football Club's function?

MR RICHARDSON: As I have already said, they were supposed to be with Mrs Mandela as people who were supporting her in her job as a Social Worker.

MR RICHARD: Did you act as a bodyguard to Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: How did you discharge that function?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the Club now, or the applicant?

MR RICHARD: The Club?

MR RICHARDSON: We were supposed to be with her when she was attending the rallies, and funerals, and we would try and drive away the media people next to her.

MR RICHARD: Now, at her house, did the team perform any functions like guarding?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct. The group was supposed to safeguard Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: And how did it do that?

MR RICHARDSON: Four people would be selected to guard the yard and guard the people who were coming in.

MR RICHARD: What was your function within the team and the duties that it took on?

MR RICHARDSON: I was a Trainer Coach of the Club.

MR RICHARD: Now, who organised guard duties and schedules and rosters?

MR RICHARDSON: That would be Mrs Mandela's instruction and she would call the people's names who were supposed to take a certain shift.

MR RICHARD: Who would be responsible for making sure that they did?

MR RICHARDSON: There was Ronnie Sqoqonya who was responsible for that, Sizwe Sithole was also there.

MR RICHARD: What was your function in the organisation?

MR RICHARDSON: I was also in that group that was supposed to safeguard the premises.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, you mentioned two names, Sithole and who? You mentioned two names, Sithole and who was the other one?

MR RICHARDSON: Ronnie Sqoqonya.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR RICHARDSON: Sizwe Sithole.

MR RICHARD: In the neighbourhood, did you perform any other functions?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there were other tasks.

CHAIRPERSON: Which neighbourhood are we speaking of?

MR RICHARD: In the neighbourhood of Orlando.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there were other tasks. For instance if there was conflicts in the shebeens or in the houses there, they would come and report to Mrs Mandela. Mrs Mandela would instruct a group to go and help there.

MR RICHARD: To go and help who?

MR RICHARDSON: Say for instance if a couple was fighting in the house, we would go there and help.

MR RICHARD: How would you help?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, Mr Richardson, am I correct in seeing it that your functions were of a social nature, dealing with conflicts, household conflicts and also in a sense political, by protecting Mrs Mandela against any danger that may come her way?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: During this period, you developed a relationship with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, how would you describe your relationship with her?

MR RICHARDSON: I can say we were very close, we would attend funerals and rallies together.

MR RICHARD: How often a day, a week, did you see Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: I would see her twice a week.

MR RICHARD: What sort of instructions would she give you to do?

MR RICHARDSON: First of all, after coming from the gym, I would go and report to her and tell her that I was just coming from the gym.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that twice a week?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Was it sometimes more often than twice a week, or less often than twice a week?

MR RICHARDSON: No, that is not correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And that was during the period 1975 up to 1986, or between 1986 and 1988, which period was that?

MR RICHARDSON: From 1986.

MR RICHARD: Now, it need hardly be led but I will ask the question, what was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in relation to the ANC during 1986?

MR RICHARDSON: I do not know how to explain this, but I will try.

CHAIRPERSON: We will say it is common knowledge that she was a member of the ANC, even though it was banned, is it not common knowledge?

MR RICHARD: I believe it is common knowledge and I will leave the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I do not think - yes, we shouldn't belabour that point.

MR RICHARD: Now, again I don't think I need to belabour the point of what was happening in and around South Africa during the period 1986 to 1988, save to say ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I think there was serious political conflict at that stage?

MR RICHARD: Yes. Now, taking into account the political conflict prevalent in the country during 1986, 1988, 1985, did the topic of informers ever get discussed?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that used to be the subject in most agenda's, in discussions because if one is suspected to be an informant, that person would be killed.

MR RICHARD: When you say most agenda's, agenda's for what?

MR RICHARDSON: Maybe I made a mistake, I am just talking about normal discussions, when we would start a discussion, that used to be the subject.

MR RICHARD: Now, the topic and fear of informers was it discussed once a week, once a day or once a month or very often?

CHAIRPERSON: Firstly, by whom? Firstly by whom, who would discuss these informers? Normally we would have this discussion about informers and they would be killed, but who would be discussing this and where?

MR RICHARDSON: It was this team, Mandela United Football Club, we would make such utterances that informants should be killed.

MR RICHARD: With whom would the discussions be, name the people who you discussed the question of informers with?

MR RICHARDSON: I am talking about Mandela United Football Club.

MR RICHARD: Let's do it another way around. Were there any MK cadres within the Madikizela-Mandela household at the time, 1986, 1989?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they were there.

MR RICHARD: Who were they?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: His full names if you can give it to us?

MR RICHARDSON: I only know him as Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR RICHARDSON: He was the only one.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever discuss the question of informers with him?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he firstly belong to the Mandela Football Club, Sonwabo?

MR RICHARDSON: No, he was not with the Football Club, he was just a MK cadre.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would you meet with him?

MR RICHARDSON: We would meet at Mrs Mandela's house.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interpose Mr Richard, the discussions of informers, were these formally discussed in meetings, or was in informal discussions or both?

MR RICHARDSON: Even if we were doing our laundry, we would discuss about these things.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have formal meetings to discuss it as well?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we would have informal meetings, we would have formal meetings.

ADV BOSMAN: And who would take the lead at these meetings, who chaired the meetings?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Ronnie Sqoqonya and Sizwe. Those were the people who would take whatever we were discussing, and take it to Mrs Mandela.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. Now, when these two individuals discussed informers with the team, what did they warn or say about informers?

MR RICHARDSON: It is like a coach, when you tell people how to play, when you tell the players how to play the ball. It was a class situation and he was actually giving us some training and he would tell us that we were going to be discussing about informers.

MR RICHARD: And what would happen to informers if found?

MR RICHARDSON: They would be questioned extensively. If they admit to that, they would be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow. I think the question was about the discussion about the informers, take us from there, because you discuss informers and suddenly you say "we questioned them", when are they kidnapped, what happened and all that? What would you do? For instance, tell us once you discuss these people or the informers in a meeting, what happens thereafter and take us through the whole thing, but let's start, what was the compliment of this Football Club?

MR RICHARD: How many people belonged to the Club?

MR RICHARDSON: Many people, many players were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richardson, that is not satisfactory, you are the trainer/coach and you don't know how many people you are training?

MR RICHARDSON: I had many players, many, many players.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say for instance, if you were to play against another team, you would be eleven. Over and above the eleven, how many people more or less were there?

MR RICHARDSON: Let me say this, I said we had many players, because I had five divisions. Each division had 14 players.

CHAIRPERSON: You never had a register of these people? I know it is many years back, but at least you could have a register of these people?

MR RICHARDSON: We did not use a register, so I did not have one.

CHAIRPERSON: So you could comprise five divisions, how did you know this one is for the first division, second division, how would you know that if you don't have a register of these people?

MR RICHARDSON: It was very easy for me to do that. The first division was of a higher level and therefore it was easy for me to divide them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that is understood, I know that there is the premier division for instance, we know that that is the high quality football in South Africa and then there would be first division and so on. I say, how would you know these people? Take it simple, take the most popular teams, Orlando Pirates, we know who plays in that first division and who plays in the lower division, we know the names. We cannot say (indistinct), that is not satisfactory.

MR RICHARDSON: I still maintain that it was very easy for me to divide them, I would get five divisions for a tournament or a match.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, as a coach you sort of lived with the players, you see them every day, you know them by name, isn't that so?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, so if you didn't know all 100 of them, you at least would have known 50 of them by name, isn't that so?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Let's approach this another way around, how many of your football players stayed at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

CHAIRPERSON: Can't we start by saying where those people stayed, because you are giving evidence Mr Richard, he never said so.

MR RICHARD: I will rephrase Chair. Who stayed at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: Sizwe was staying there, Ronnie Sqoqonya. The others, one of them was Mayse and the other one was Jabu.

MR RICHARD: How many more?

MR RICHARDSON: Others would come and visit, but they were still staying in their homes, but those that I have mentioned, were staying there.

MR RICHARD: How many other people stayed at the house?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot say for sure, I do not know.

MR RICHARD: Was it many or a few?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot say.

MR RICHARD: Now, the impression that you give the Committee is that within the Football team, there were approximately 50, 60 people, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, when somebody joined the team, did you know who they were?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did you check on what background they had?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you screen them as to their political affiliation?

MR RICHARDSON: No, that was not my job.

MR RICHARD: Now, whose job was it?

MR RICHARDSON: I do not know.

MR RICHARD: what steps were taken to make sure informers did not infiltrate the team?

MR RICHARDSON: I am not in a position to respond to that question.

MR RICHARD: Was it possible that informers might have infiltrated the team?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: Was it possible that informers might infiltrate the team?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, were you aware of any informers who did infiltrate the team?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, we then proceed. These people would perform guard duty, bodyguard functions, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: How did you know how trustworthy they would be if you were going to entrust the security of Mrs Mandela's house to them?

MR RICHARDSON: As I have already explained, a person would go there and safeguard the house, the instruction for that responsibility would come from Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: How would you know that people in the team, could be trusted?

MR RICHARDSON: Just like Ronnie Sqoqonya, Sizwe Sithole and myself, we were trustworthy.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could we perhaps come to the first incident, could we deal with when this person was killed, why he was killed, why he is applying for amnesty?

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: We are not dealing with the whole background of politics, we want to come to the incidents that he is applying for.

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, the fact that various people were killed, on the basis that they were suspected to be informers, is (indistinct) to the application, but I will proceed to that point.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but he told us he wasn't aware of any informers in the soccer team for instance, so I don't know why we should carry on dealing with that.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Who was the first person that was killed in the sequence of events?

MR RICHARDSON: I am a bit confused now.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Mr Sono, for the killing of Lolo Sono.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You are applying for amnesty for the killing of Lolo Sono and Anthony Tshabalala, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you kill them?

MR RICHARDSON: I did not kill those people, but I was present during the act.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you order them to be killed?

MR RICHARDSON: I just suggested a place where those people were to be killed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you are accepting a responsibility and liability for this murder, these murders?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now, could you tell us how they were killed and why they were killed?

MR RICHARDSON: Lolo Sono and Tshabalala, on the 9th of November 1988, they came to my place. They told me that they were sent by Mrs Mandela. At my place there were people who were supposed to leave for Lusaka. This youth came there, they were requesting to go with these people to Lusaka. I had to give them the amount of R20-00, taking that money from the cadres who were staying with me in the house. I took this money from the cadres and I gave it to them. In that process, one of the cadres called Debogo, pointed one of these boys, who was Tshabalala and he said that was his brother. I asked Tshabalala to go to the back of the house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you, could you just tell us, you said you gave ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You gave them the money which you received from the cadres. What, who were the cadres, what was the cadre's name, the one, and the other one, there were two of them?

MR RICHARDSON: One of them was Sipho and the other one was Debogo.

MR RICHARD: What was the connection between Sono and Tshabalala with those two people, who were related to who?

MR RICHARDSON: Tshabalala was a relative of Debogo.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR RICHARD: Now, who sent the two young persons, that is Sono and Tshabalala, to you, to your house?

MR RICHARDSON: These two boys came and they told me they were coming from Mrs Mandela's place.

MR RICHARD: After they came to your house, did they go anywhere else?

MR RICHARDSON: No. They went to my house and we started looking for them, and they had gone to the Park Station.

MR RICHARD: How did they get to the Park Station?

CHAIRPERSON: They were given R20-00.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, shortly after they left you house an event happened, what was that?

MR RICHARDSON: The police came and they were in my yard. There was a shooting, I was arrested.

MR RICHARD: Where were you when the shooting took place?

MR RICHARDSON: I was already in the police van, I was locked in there.

MR RICHARD: Where were you when the police arrived?

MR RICHARDSON: I was in my premises, washing the car.

MR RICHARD: Now, who died in the shooting?

MR RICHARDSON: Two cadres died, and one policeman.

MR RICHARD: What was the name of the policeman?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Fanie Pretorius.

MR RICHARD: What did the police do with you after the shooting was finished?

MR RICHARDSON: The police took me to Protea Police Station and I was charged under Section 29.

MR RICHARD: How long were you kept in the police station under Section 29?

MR RICHARDSON: I was arrested on the 9th of November and I was released on the 25th of November.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you go upon your release?

MR RICHARDSON: I went straight to Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: And what did you do there, who did you go and speak to?

MR RICHARDSON: I went there to speak to Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: And who did you find?

MR RICHARDSON: I found Mrs Mandela and her daughter.

MR RICHARD: And did you see anything of Lolo Sono or Anthony Tshabalala?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, after talking to Mrs Mandela, I went to the garage, I found Lolo Sono and this other guy, sitting there.

MR RICHARD: In what state of health were they, were they well?

MR RICHARDSON: It was clear that they had been assaulted.

MR RICHARD: What injuries did you observe?

MR RICHARDSON: Their eyes were green, they had blue eyes.

MR RICHARD: Anything else?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, a discussion ensued about them, with who was that discussion at the house?

MR RICHARDSON: It was myself, Mrs Mandela and Zinzi.

MR RICHARD: And what was said in that discussion?

MR RICHARDSON: I was told that I should stop walking around a lot and I was also told that those children were responsible for what happened at my house.

MR RICHARD: Now, was there any other discussion with anybody else about them, besides Mrs Mandela and her daughter?

MR RICHARDSON: I talked to Sonwabo and Charles Zwane.

MR RICHARD: What did that discussion consist of?

MR RICHARDSON: They were talking about my release, they wanted to know why was I released so early. I told them that I had no idea, I was just released. Sonwabo said "Richardson, there is nothing like that, you are an informer".

MR RICHARD: Was that true?

MR RICHARDSON: That was not true.

MR RICHARD: Had you been asked to become an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Fanie Pretorius approached me, he tried to recruit me when I was arrested.

MR RICHARD: When was that? Fanie Pretorius was dead?

CHAIRPERSON: Dead?

MR RICHARDSON: Just before his death.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get this, I don't follow.

MR RICHARD: It is jumping around a little.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't follow really.

MR RICHARD: Let's start again, you have now been released from the South African Police and you are having a discussion with two people at Mrs Mandela's house, and they are accusing you of being an informer. While you had been in the police custody, that time, after the shoot-out at your house, had the police approached you to be an informer? That is after Pretorius' death?

MR RICHARDSON: No, no one ever approached me after Pretorius' death.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. My question was relative to Lolo Sono and Tshabalala, you had your first discussion with Mrs Mandela and her daughter, Zinzi. My next question was did you discuss those two young men with anybody else?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I just want this to be cleared out, before that, you told us that Fanie Pretorius approached you to be an informer, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When did he approach you?

MR RICHARDSON: Before the incident that took place at my house.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before the incident?

MR RICHARDSON: I can say two weeks before the incident.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you know Fanie Pretorius?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you never travel with him to Ellis Park?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you meet him?

MR RICHARDSON: On the first day I was in the High Court, when I saw him. I went there to listen to the court hearing of Oupa, I think it was in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he would have been dead by then.

MR RICHARDSON: 1988, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is your house, because you spoke about your house several times, and I don't know up to now where you lived?

MR RICHARDSON: My house is in Mzimhlope, number 97948.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: We will return to the policeman Pretorius, later, let's concentrate on Sono and Tshabalala. You had seen them at your house on the day of the shoot-out, correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next time you saw them was at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's Orlando house?

MR RICHARDSON: Diepkloof.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, do you know where they had been in between whiles?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, a discussion happened at which their fate was debated and what would happen to them next, was debated.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, we are still where he is accused by Sonwabo that he is an informer, we are there? Nothing has been debated so far, they are accusing him of being an informer.

MR RICHARD: Right. Thank you Chair, now at that discussion where you were accused of being an informer, what did you say?

MR RICHARDSON: I told Sonwabo that informants should be killed.

MR RICHARD: What did he say back to you?

MR RICHARDSON: He agreed with me. Charles disagreed. That was the end of the discussion.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you discuss the two young men?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we did discuss about these boys.

MR RICHARD: What was the discussion?

MR RICHARDSON: We said those were the people who sold out the cadres who were in my house.

MR RICHARD: Who said that?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: Did he explain why he said that?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, he told us.

MR RICHARD: Then what was decided should be done about the two young men?

MR RICHARDSON: He said those boys should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Was that topic ever discussed with Mrs Mandela?

CHAIRPERSON: Let it rather come from him, apparently he is discussing with Charles and Sonwabo. Let's rather get it, who said that they must be killed between Sonwabo and Charles and he apparently said Sonwabo said these boys must be killed. We cannot introduce Mrs Madikizela-Mandela unless it comes from him.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose there is a story here, upon his release he went directly to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, he found her with Zinzi and thereafter he went to the garage and saw these boys with blue eyes, which he assumed they were assaulted, and then thereafter he had a discussion with Charles and Sonwabo. We cannot assume from that that he thereafter spoke to Mrs Mandela, because they accused him, they were thereafter satisfied that he is not an informer. That is how far the story goes.

MR RICHARD: Right. Were there any other discussions?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, it had now been decided that they should be killed, what was said next?

MR RICHARDSON: Sonwabo decided about Guybon, and Ninja and myself, Richardson.

MR RICHARD: What did he decide should happen?

MR RICHARDSON: He said those boys should be taken and be killed.

MR RICHARD: And what happened next?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, could you kindly repeat those names? Sonwabo decided ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

JUDGE DE JAGER: He decided that you and two other names, could you repeat the names please?

MR RICHARDSON: Guybon.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR RICHARDSON: Ninja.

MR RICHARD: Could you please give us the full name of Guybon?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't know his full names, but I do have it in my documents.

MR RICHARD: Would you please look in your documents, with the permission of the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: What documents would that be?

MR RICHARDSON: It is a Government Gazette.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which year is that Government Gazette?

MR RICHARDSON: 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: The day and month?

MR RICHARDSON: 3 November.

MR RICHARD: What does it say of Guybon?

MR RICHARDSON: It says Kubheka Jabulani Tandanani Guybon.

MR RICHARD: What does the Gazette say about him?

MR RICHARDSON: It states that Guybon injured Stompie Sepei in 1998.

MR RICHARD: And what does it say was consequent ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, let's just get the years correct, the Government Gazette is of 1994 and how can we now speak of 1988. What was the subject matter of that Government Gazette?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it a list of people receiving indemnity.

MR RICHARDSON: I would like to hand this over to my ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you have a look at it?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you have a look at it Mr Richard and see what it is all about?

MR RICHARD: In terms of the Further Indemnity Act, 1992, notice is hereby given that the undermentioned persons will be released on 3 November 1994 as they have been granted indemnity. Then it has got Guybon Kubheka, the assault of James Moeketsi, Stompie Sepei during December 1988. It is the Government Gazette of 3 November 1994, and there is a list of various other names of people also who were given indemnity.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Does Ninja's name also appear there?

MR RICHARD: Ninja does not appear as far as I can see.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he might be known by another name, he may assist us with that.

MR RICHARD: Do you know Ninja's proper names?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Is that the only name that you knew him by?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that was the only name that I knew.

MR RICHARD: Now, where we had got in the story was that Guybon instructed that various people should do something. Who were the people that were instructed to do whatever it was that he wanted done? Who did he instruct to carry out his order? It was you and somebody else, some other persons?

MR RICHARDSON: It was myself, Ninja and Guybon.

MR RICHARD: Who instructed you to do what now, who gave the instruction to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: Sonwabo?

CHAIRPERSON: Gave instructions.

MR RICHARDSON: Sonwabo instructed us to kill these boys, two boys, because they were responsible for the death of the two cadres.

MR RICHARD: Now, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: I said that I would go and point out a place, a safe place for the act to be committed. Indeed, I did so, I pointed out the place that was Guybon and Ninja.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not supposed to partake in the killing, according to Sonwabo's instructions?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I was supposed to partake, but because of the fact that I was already involved in many killings, I was not prepared to kill these two boys.

MR RICHARD: Now, you were at the Diepkloof house, where did you go from there?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, let me just interpose here and let's get the exact location. You know Diepkloof has got about six Zones and then you have an Extension of Diepkloof, which is divided also into three, phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3. Let's probably just have the location.

MR RICHARD: Do you have the address of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's Diepkloof house?

MR RICHARDSON: If I am not mistaken, I think it is number 585.

MR RICHARD: Zone what?

MR RICHARDSON: Diepkloof Extension.

MR RICHARD: What number?

MR RICHARDSON: 585.

MR RICHARD: And you don't know whether its got an Extension number 10, or 11 or ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, it would be Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3.

MR RICHARD: Phase 1, Phase 2 or Phase 3?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I don't know about that.

MR RICHARD: Now, you, Ninja and Guybon were with the two young men at the Diepkloof house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: How did you leave the house, did you go by foot or by car or ...

MR RICHARDSON: We were driving in a car.

MR RICHARD: To where did you drive?

MR RICHARDSON: We took the direction to Mzimhlope township, we went to the mountain there or a hill rather, and Shakes was the driver.

MR RICHARD: Now, I understood that there was Ninja, Guybon and you, when did Shakes join you?

MR RICHARDSON: He joined us as we were looking for the driver, he was going to take us there.

MR RICHARD: Now, this hill, was it - what sort of hill was it? Where was the hill?

MR RICHARDSON: It is Mzimhlope.

MR RICHARD: Where in Mzimhlope?

MR RICHARDSON: Orlando West.

MR RICHARD: Now, is it open or treed or grassy, can you describe it to us?

MR RICHARDSON: There are some trees, but it is an open space, it is an open veld.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Richard, perhaps it would be easier to ask why did you choose this particular spot?

MR RICHARDSON: Most of the times, there were no people there on that particular spot.

MR RICHARD: Now, what is the nearest landmark to this spot, a church, police station, railway station?

MR RICHARDSON: It was next to a male hostel.

MR RICHARD: What is the name of the hostel?

MR RICHARDSON: Mzimhlope Hostel.

MR RICHARD: Now, if requested to do so, would you be able to go to that same place that you guided the car to?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, we've got Shakes driving, what did Shakes do once you reached the spot?

MR RICHARDSON: He did nothing, he was just a driver.

MR RICHARD: Did he stay in the car or did he get out of the car?

MR RICHARDSON: He remained in the car.

MR RICHARD: What did you, Ninja and Guybon do?

MR RICHARDSON: Ninja and Guybon alighted with the two boys and I followed with spades.

MR RICHARD: What happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: When they got to the place, one of the boys, I don't know which one was the first, but one of the boys were tied on his feet and the attacked this other one.

MR RICHARD: Who was tied by his feet, whose feet were tied up?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot remember which one was the first, but one of them was tied by his feet and the other one was attacked.

MR RICHARD: Who attacked the other one?

MR RICHARDSON: Ninja and Guybon.

MR RICHARD: Why was it that they attacked?

MR RICHARDSON: The intention was to kill them.

MR RICHARD: Why did they attack, not you?

MR RICHARDSON: I said I did not want to be involved because I had killed many people.

MR RICHARD: Now, who attacked the first one, was it Guybon or Ninja?

CHAIRPERSON: Don't we know the names now, rather than say attack the other one, can't we speak of names because we know the names now. Sono and Tshabalala, are they not the ones that we are talking about now?

MR RICHARD: Yes, they are, but - do you know who was attacked first, was it Sono or Tshabalala?

MR RICHARDSON: I said I cannot remember which one was first, because the other one was tied.

MR RICHARD: Now, how was he attacked?

MR RICHARDSON: They tied his hand and feet.

MR RICHARD: And then what did they do?

MR RICHARDSON: They came to the second one.

MR RICHARD: Slow down. One has his feet tied up, they attacked the other one and if I understand you correctly, they tied his hands and his feet? What did they do to that one, next?

INTERPRETER: Can the applicant be requested to listen on channel 3, because there is something that I do not understand.

MR RICHARD: Pass me your recording thing.

CHAIRPERSON: May we take this opportunity to let the Interpreters catch their breath, we shall adjourn for approximately 10 minutes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

JERRY VUSUMSI RICHARDSON: (s.u.o.)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, we ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, the client is Richardson, he is Richard.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, we have reached the stage where Mr Richardson gave evidence that they tied the hands and feet of one of the boys together, and did they then proceed to kill that man?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How did they kill him?

MR RICHARDSON: He was stabbed in the neck.

JUDGE DE JAGER: With what?

MR RICHARDSON: With a knife.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: (Cont) Who did the stabbing?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Guybon.

MR RICHARD: What did the other one do?

MR RICHARDSON: He was holding him.

MR RICHARD: Then what did they do next after they had killed the first one?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they stab him only once? Did Guybon stab him only once?

MR RICHARDSON: They slit his throat, he slit his throat and Ninja was supposed to make sure that he was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean that Ninja was supposed to see that he was dead after Guybon had slit his throat? What do you mean, what was that which Ninja had to do?

MR RICHARDSON: He was going to take the same knife and put it through the throat and be sure that he was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he do that?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, he did that.

MR RICHARD: And then after they had finished killing the first one, what happened?

MR RICHARDSON: They killed the second one.

MR RICHARD: How did they kill him?

MR RICHARDSON: He was also killed in the same manner.

MR RICHARD: Who used the knife first?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Guybon.

MR RICHARD: Did Ninja also use the knife?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did they stab often or once, or cut once or often?

MR RICHARDSON: They put the knife through the throat only once, and the person bled.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So they didn't slaughter him, they didn't slaughter him like a goat?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, he was slaughtered like a goat.

MR RICHARD: Now, after the two had been killed, what did the four of you do?

MR RICHARDSON: We dug a hole.

MR RICHARD: How deep was the hole?

CHAIRPERSON: It couldn't be four of them, Shakes was all the time remaining in the car?

MR RICHARD: Did Shakes help to dig the hole?

MR RICHARDSON: No, Shakes remained in the car.

MR RICHARD: Who dug the hole?

MR RICHARDSON: It was myself, Guybon and Ninja.

MR RICHARD: How many holes were dug?

MR RICHARDSON: Two holes.

MR RICHARD: How deep were they?

MR RICHARDSON: It was about from my waist down, that was the size, the deepness of the hole.

MR RICHARD: Now, what sort of soil did you dig in, was it rocky, of fine or ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was the hill rocky, firstly?

MR RICHARDSON: It was just soft soil.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the hill rocky?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Very well. And then how long did it take you to bury the two young men?

MR RICHARDSON: It took about two hours.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

ADV BOSMAN: Excuse me, may I just come in here, and all this time Shakes was sitting in the car, two hours?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct, he remained in the car.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he know what you were doing?

MR RICHARDSON: No, he had no idea of what was happening.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Could he see what you were doing?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: How far away from where the killings took place, was the car?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot show, but it was quite a distance. It was on some rocky area.

MR RICHARD: Did Shakes know what was going to happen when he drove ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, but he just said to me the hill was not rocky, now you say a rocky area. He just said to me it wasn't rocky? Was this a natural hill?

MR RICHARDSON: No, it was not a natural hill, that hill was used as a mine shaft, it was once used as a mine shaft.

CHAIRPERSON: A mine dump you mean? I am asking this because I am a Sowetan.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I agree with you, but I can even take you there to that place, it is a mine shaft. That was a mine, it is a place that used to be a mine.

CHAIRPERSON: How could it be a mine shaft, Mr Richardson? Are you not speaking of an area behind the Mzimhlope Hostel?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I am talking about that mountain or hill.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no mine shaft there, as there?

MR RICHARDSON: As far as I am concerned, I grew up there, and that used to be a mine shaft.

MR RICHARD: When you say mine shaft, what do you mean by a mine shaft? Please describe a mine shaft.

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot describe it because I never went in a mine, but if you know those hills or mountains behind Mzimhlope Hostel, we call them a mine shaft.

CHAIRPERSON: You call the accumulation of the waste that comes on top, a mine shaft?

MR RICHARDSON: Maybe that is so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you just inform us, what time of the day or night did this happen?

MR RICHARDSON: It was during the night, at about passed eight.

CHAIRPERSON: That is when you started going, Shakes driving you to this place?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say it took you approximately two hours, in other words you finished approximately ten o'clock in the evening?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, once you had finished putting the sand back in the graves and burying them, did you do anything else there before leaving?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we tried to level the soil so that the graves could be invisible.

MR RICHARD: How did you do that?

MR RICHARDSON: Cut down a tree and tried to sweep our footsteps there on that soil.

MR RICHARD: What colour was the soil?

MR RICHARDSON: It was off-white, just like the colour of this table in front of me.

MR RICHARD: Now, you said the car was parked somewhere rocky, what do you mean by rocky?

MR RICHARDSON: I was talking about a river that comes from Florida, runs behind the male hostel.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just one thing, were you in charge of this operation?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you in charge of this operation?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I was not in charge, Guybon was in charge.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't Guybon order you to participate in the killing?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you hold one of the deceased?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I never touched them, it was only when we were putting them in the graves, that I touched them.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did they walk themselves to where they were eventually killed?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they were walking.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now, after the event, you went back, where to?

MR RICHARDSON: We went to Diepkloof.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you report to anybody?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we reported.

JUDGE DE JAGER: To who?

MR RICHARDSON: We told Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Why Mrs Madikizela-Mandela when you got your orders from Sonwabo?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we were to report to her.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I say why, because you should have told Sonwabo "we have done the job"? Why Mrs Mandela? I want just to follow why you had to report to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela when you were ordered by Sonwabo to kill those boys because they were responsible for the incident at your house?

MR RICHARDSON: The reason for that is because those two boys were residing in her premises.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, there is another thing I want to know, you said you didn't take part in the killing because you were involved in many previous killings?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Those previous killings, were they connected with politics?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they were politically motivated.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why didn't you apply for amnesty for them?

MR RICHARDSON: I think I have forwarded application, application for amnesty about Stompie, Quqi and Lerothodi. About Lerothodi, it was just an attempted murder.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but what about all the previous ones you have told us about now, you didn't mention details and I don't want to go into that, but why didn't you apply for those too?

MR RICHARDSON: Which one are you talking about?

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't know sir, I wasn't there, but you have told us you had been involved in many previous killings, and that was the reason why you didn't partake in killing Sono.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I still maintain that you have the application in front of you, and all the people's names are mentioned there. I am talking about those people, Quqi is one of them, Stompie is also one of them. Those are the people that I am talking about.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But that happened after this event, not before it?

MR RICHARDSON: No, those are the people that I am talking about.

JUDGE DE JAGER: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this not the first killing, that we were under the impression when you started testifying, you are going to tell us about the first killing you had been involved in?

MR RICHARD: Chair, my first question was to the applicant, who did you kill first and it went in another direction. May I beg leave to intercede at this stage, maybe I may be able to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Clarify the point, yes, you may do so. Thank you Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Yes, thank you Chair. Sir, let's get the order of the killings straight. Of the people that you have applied for amnesty for killing or attempting to kill, who came first? Who did you attack first, who did you kill first? Can you remember?

CHAIRPERSON: Stompie Sepei in relation to Lolo and Tshabalala, who was killed first?

MR RICHARDSON: The first victims were Lolo Sono and Tshabalala.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, before you killed these two young men, had you killed any other people?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Then the question the Committee is putting to you is that when you said you didn't want to kill them because there were many killings that you had done, what do you mean?

MR RICHARDSON: As far as I am concerned, I think that Stompie and Quqi died before Lolo and Tshabalala.

MR RICHARD: Now, let's look at the chronology this way - do you remember when the shoot-out at your house happened between the police and the two MK cadres?

CHAIRPERSON: The 9th of November?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, it was on the 9th of November.

MR RICHARD: How long were you in jail from the 9th of November till you were released?

MR RICHARDSON: I was arrested on the 9th and I was released on the 25th.

MR RICHARD: Now, if you remember then, had you killed anyone before then?

MR RICHARDSON: From the 9th up to the 25th of November, I was never involved in any killing.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is possible, because you were incarcerated, we say prior to the 9th of November?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: So prior to the 9th of November 1988, you had never in your life before, killed anyone?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, once you were released from jail, and you went to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house to the time that you killed Lolo Sono and Anthony Tshabalala, how long was it? Was it a day, a week, a month?

MR RICHARDSON: It was after a week.

MR RICHARD: Now, during that week, did you kill anyone?

MR RICHARDSON: No one except for Lolo and Tshabalala.

MR RICHARD: So that means there had been no killings in your life, before you killed Lolo Sono and Anthony Tshabalala?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Then we go back to what the Committee asked you, why did you say you didn't want to kill them because you already had been involved in many killings?

MR RICHARDSON: I am confused a bit.

MR RICHARD: Now, on what basis was it decided that Guybon Kubheka and Ninja would do the killings and not you?

MR RICHARDSON: The reason was that Ninja had uttered sensitive words to me and he painted me as an informer.

MR RICHARD: I leave the point for my colleagues to pursue later.

MR RICHARDSON: I apologise, I am talking about Sonwabo and not Ninja.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. Perhaps Mr Richardson and Mr Richard, we could then move on to the abduction and the killing of Quqi Zwane in December 1998.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, I shall.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you involved in that killing?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where was she killed?

MR RICHARDSON: Next to the railway line in Orlando East.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you bury her?

MR RICHARDSON: No, she was never buried, we left her on top of a stone or rock.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you kill her?

MR RICHARDSON: The reason for the killing of Quqi Zwane the instruction came from Mrs Mandela because Quqi was involved with one player, called Buthile.

MR RICHARD: May I proceed?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now where did Quqi Zwane come from?

MR RICHARDSON: She was from Orlando West.

MR RICHARD: With who was she involved?

MR RICHARDSON: She was involved with Buthile and Shakes.

MR RICHARD: Buthile, what was he? Who was he? What did he do?

MR RICHARDSON: Buthile was a player in the team, Mandela United.

MR RICHARD: Now, what was Shakes?

MR RICHARDSON: Shakes was a driver for Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: So she was having a relationship with both these men?

MR RICHARDSON: You would find her with Buthile sometimes and you would find her with Buthile or Shakes, it was not clear.

CHAIRPERSON: This involvement, you mean having a relationship with her?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, she was in love with Buthile.

ADV BOSMAN: So what was political about this killing?

MR RICHARDSON: It was alleged that Quqi was an informant.

ADV BOSMAN: Who alleged that?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Mrs Mandela.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: When did Mrs Mandela accuse Quqi Zwane of being an informer?

CHAIRPERSON: No, they merely got orders, she wasn't accused by anybody at this stage. He says he received instructions from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to kill Quqi because she was an informer.

MR RICHARD: My question is do you remember when this accusation came about?

MR RICHARDSON: During that time, in December.

MR RICHARD: Now, who was present when that accusation was made?

MR RICHARDSON: I was present and Ronnie Sqoqonya, (indistinct) was also present.

MR RICHARD: Now, was it ever explained to you why the allegation was made that Quqi was an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that was explained to us.

MR RICHARD: What was the explanation as to why people thought, Mrs Mandela thought that the late Quqi Zwane was an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: She would come to that house all the time, that was the only explanation that we got, because she frequented that house.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Which house?

MR RICHARD: Which house did she frequent?

MR RICHARDSON: The house belonging to Mrs Mandela in Diepkloof Extension.

MR RICHARD: Did you know whether she frequented the house from your own knowledge of not?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I know that because she had a boyfriend there.

MR RICHARD: And that was - who was her boyfriend?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Buthile.

MR RICHARD: Buthile?

ADV BOSMAN: Excuse me Mr Richard, may I just come in here, but if she had a boyfriend there, why would she then be seen as an informer if she frequented the house?

MR RICHARDSON: That was the criteria, but if you have suspected that a person is an informant, it stays like that.

MR RICHARD: Did you think that she was an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever question anyone whether the basis that she was a frequent visitor to the house, was sufficient to form the opinion that she was an informer? Did you challenge the opinion?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: So on some day in December 1988, this meeting happened. Could you describe to the Committee what happened at that meeting? What was said?

MR RICHARDSON: Will you please repeat your question sir? I request the question again.

MR RICHARD: There is a meeting where you and the others that you have mentioned, were present and Quqi Zwane was discussed, do you remember that meeting? For the sake of the record, could you repeat all that was said at that meeting?

MR RICHARDSON: All I know is that it was alleged that Quqi Zwane was an informer.

MR RICHARD: Now who said that?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: Now, who were the other people at that meeting?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Ronnie Sqoqonya, myself and Guybon. Those are the only people that I can think of.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone question the decision?

CHAIRPERSON: Ninja, was Ninja present?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone question whether it was a correct decision to decide that she was an impimpi?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Then what were you told next?

MR RICHARDSON: We were told that Quqi was no longer needed in those premises.

MR RICHARD: What was meant by that?

MR RICHARDSON: It meant that whenever she comes there, we should actually send her away or tell her to get out.

MR RICHARD: Now, you say that you killed her?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Why did you kill her?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela told us that Quqi was an informer, therefore she should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but have you not just said to us that she was no longer needed on those premises, whenever she makes an appearance, she must be told to go? You have just told us that now, now, now. You said Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said she is an informer, she is no longer needed on the premises and whenever she comes to the premises, she must be sent away?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct. First of all, we were to tell her to go away, tell her not to come back again. She came for the second time, and we couldn't tell her to go away, that was when she was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't you because those were the orders?

MR RICHARDSON: She would come there forcefully and stay in the house, therefore we had to kill her. I was told that I should select someone who was going to assist me and I couldn't send her away at that time, I just had to go and kill her.

MR RICHARD: Let's take it slowly. There was this meeting where you were told that she was never to come back to the house? How many times after that meeting, did she come back to the house?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Was it once, or a few times, many times?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Now, because she was coming back to the house, you say someone told you something, who was that someone?

ADV BOSMAN: Put the question to him clearly, someone told you to select someone to assist you to kill her, who told you to select someone to assist you?

MR RICHARDSON: The person who uttered those words to me was Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: When did she utter those words, was it the same day as the first meeting or some days later?

MR RICHARDSON: There was no meeting on that particular day, Quqi had come to pay a visit as a comrade, that is the day that I remember.

MR RICHARD: My question was, there was the meeting where it was decided that she should never come back to the house and should be chased away. Between then and when you received the instruction to kill Quqi Zwane, how long in time pass, was it hours, days, weeks?

MR RICHARDSON: It was a week after the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, you have told us that you were told by Mrs Mandela to select some people to do the killing. Did you make the selection?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I made that selection.

MR RICHARD: Who did you select?

MR RICHARDSON: I selected Killa Mbatha.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR RICHARDSON: Only.

MR RICHARD: Only Killa Mbatha?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Killa Mbatha only.

MR RICHARD: Now, where was Quqi at this time?

MR RICHARDSON: She was in one of the back rooms.

MR RICHARD: You and Killa were going to do something and she was in the back room, would you please tell us what happened from there?

MR RICHARDSON: John Morgan came to ask Quqi to take him in a car somewhere. I refused, I told him that I am going to do that job.

MR RICHARD: Let's go through that slowly. John Morgan asked Quqi or did Quqi ask John Morgan to take her somewhere?

MR RICHARDSON: John Morgan asked Quqi to come with him because he was going to West Street, I beg your pardon, Orlando West and I refused and I told him that I am going to take Quqi there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, did you tell John Morgan that he should take Quqi to a certain place?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How did it come that he was involved in this?

MR RICHARDSON: John Morgan was our driver. Late in the afternoon or in the evening, he is the one who is transporting people to their places. If you didn't catch his transport, then it would be a struggle for one to get transport.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I see, so did Quqi ask him to take her to Orlando West?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Morgan said he was taking her.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I cannot hear this.

CHAIRPERSON: Morgan said he is taking Quqi to Orlando West, not Quqi asking John Morgan to take her somewhere.

MR RICHARD: So that meant that John Morgan had nothing to do with the previous decision to kill her, and he was unassociated?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct, he is not involved.

MR RICHARD: Right. Then after John Morgan had been told what you were going to do, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: I go into the house, I asked for R10-00 from Mrs Mandela because we were going to use taxi's or public transport.

MR RICHARD: And then?

MR RICHARDSON: I explained to her that I was going to take Killa with, he did not have problem with that, and I took Killa with me. We left with Quqi, we took a taxi to Meadowlands.

MR RICHARD: And then how did you get Quqi to come with you?

MR RICHARDSON: We just said "comrade, come let's go, we are accompanying you home". Quqi stood up and left the house and Quqi never went inside the house to bid farewell, good bye, and we left the house. It was myself, Quqi and Killa.

MR RICHARD: You went to Meadowlands and what happened then?

MR RICHARDSON: We did not go to Meadowlands, we alighted a taxi at a stadium, Orlando Stadium, and we went to a certain place, at a school, and Quqi told us that Buthile was there, hiding in that particular school. When we got nearer the school, we said to Quqi, we were just taking her back, and she was surprised because we were people who were involved in physical exercises, and then I hold her and I instructed Killa to stab her.

MR RICHARD: Where did Killa stab her?

MR RICHARDSON: Killa stabbed her on the neck. She became weak, I also took the knife and stabbed her.

MR RICHARD: How many times was she stabbed?

MR RICHARDSON: Twice.

MR RICHARD: And the second stab wound, inflicted by you, where was that?

MR RICHARDSON: I stabbed her in the same wound and just behind - I slit her throat.

MR RICHARD: You slit her throat? Now in slitting the throat, did you cut or did you only stab?

MR RICHARDSON: I was cutting the veins.

MR RICHARD: And how long did she take to die?

MR RICHARDSON: We had no time, but we waited for her to get cold, it was just a short while and we left the place thereafter.

MR RICHARD: Now, could you describe exactly where you left the body, it is near a school, which school?

MR RICHARDSON: There are two schools there in Orlando East, next to the railway line. On the other side, there is Orlando Stadium and school and there was a footpath that was used by children going to school. It is also far way from Lamlamqunsi and it is also far from Orlando.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a school next to Orlando Stadium, then thereafter there is an Anglican church, thereafter there is Sizanana Shop, then thereafter there is a school, which school are you talking about? Then there would be a vacant lot, then there would be the last school?

MR RICHARDSON: The Sizanana Store, the school is situated just behind the Sizanana Shop on the way to the railway line.

MR RICHARD: Now, I am going to show you four photographs which appear on pages 61 and 62 of Bundle 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, don't you think it is an opportune moment to take the lunch adjournment and come back at two o'clock?

MR RICHARD: As the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: We shall take the lunch adjournment and come back at two o'clock to proceed with this application.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

JERRY VUSUMSI RICHARDSON: (still under oath)

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: (Cont) Thank you Chair, may I proceed?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, unless there is something which you really want to prove about the photo's, we've got them before us, it is part of the record, but if you want to refer to something specific, otherwise you could just tell us what you want to do and put it that way on record. I don't think we should dwell on it.

MR RICHARD: It is one question Chair.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Right.

MR RICHARD: Is this where it happened?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, I was about to show you pictures on pages 61 and 62 of Bundle 2, would you please examine them? Are those pictures of where the murder took place?

MR RICHARDSON: (No interpretation)

MR RICHARD: Then if we refer to page 50 of the Bundle, the same bundle, there I will list it very briefly, they describe the wounds to the deceased as follows: a 6 cm transverse incised wound with irregular edges over the anterior aspect of the neck, slightly towards the right. That is wound 1. Then wound 2, close to this wound, there are many other superficial incised smaller wounds present, measuring between 0.8 of a centimetre and 1.5. That is the many and then and two below towards the right side, measuring 0.6 and 1.2. Now, that is three groupings of wounds on the neck? Did you follow what I read?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did those wounds come about, all those wounds?

MR RICHARDSON: Truly speaking, I don't know. The only wounds that I know about are those who were inflicted on the neck.

MR RICHARD: And then they describe point 2, there are 10 superficial abraded lacerations over the left breast as well as a few other abrasions that is measuring between 0.5 and 3 centimetres. Abrasions are braises. Do you have any explanation for those wounds?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I have no explanation to that effect.

MR RICHARD: And then they say there are superficial abrasions of which some are lacerated over the large, sorry the right clavicula region, measuring between 0.5 and 2 centimetres. Any explanation?

MR RICHARDSON: No explanation.

MR RICHARD: And then they say there are two small abrasions over the dorsum of the right hand and a small abrasion over the right elbow. And then the final one, is a 2 centimetre laceration in the (indistinct) region, can you explain anything to do with all those injuries?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I have no explanation.

MR RICHARD: Did the deceased struggle while being murdered?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, she tried.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean she tried, did she struggle or didn't she?

MR RICHARD: Did she struggle or didn't she?

MR RICHARDSON: She was wrestling and I was holding her.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Right, now, in your mind, why did you kill her, what motive did you have for killing her?

MR RICHARDSON: The order was issued by Mrs Mandela to kill her, without that order, I couldn't have done it.

MR RICHARD: Now, once you had killed her, what did you do with the body?

MR RICHARDSON: We left it there next to, on the lawn, next to the stone or rock.

MR RICHARD: Then I am curious to know this question before moving on to another incident, apart from Sono and Tshabalala, did you bury any of the people that you murdered?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Weren't you worried that people would find the body and trace it back to you?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I was not worried about that.

MR RICHARD: What threat did the deceased pose to Winnie in your mind, Mrs Mandela, sorry?

MR RICHARDSON: I know nothing, except for her being an informer.

MR RICHARD: Right, we now have two other incidents to deal with, and that is the abductions and murder associated with Stompie Sepei and the Lerothodi Ikaneng ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, on the last question, she had an association with Buthile, isn't it, the deceased?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you also said that this Buthile had an association with Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I did not mention that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So there was nothing like that? A personal ...

MR RICHARDSON: No, there was nothing like that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Could you just refresh my memory, did you not say that she had two associations, with Buthile and with another?

CHAIRPERSON: Shakes?

ADV BOSMAN: Oh, was it with Shakes?

CHAIRPERSON: Shakes, yes.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I said so. She was also involved with Buthile and sometimes she would be with Shakes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, may I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. Right, as I said we have two more incidents to deal with and that is at the Methodist Church, Stompie Sepei and the abductions associated with it, and the story of Lerothodi Ikaneng. Which happened next?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Richard, before you proceed, may I just ask one question to round off the previous incident? At the stage that Quqi was killed, where was Sonwabo and the other MK cadre which used to live at Mrs Mandela's place?

MR RICHARDSON: They were not staying at Mrs Mandela's house, there was a house that was rented for them to stay there.

ADV BOSMAN: Where were they at the time, were they still in that rented house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they were in that house.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: To return to that one, after you had left her where you did, what did you do next, where did you go to?

MR RICHARDSON: After killing Quqi, we went back to Diepkloof Extension.

MR RICHARD: Where in Diepkloof Extension?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: Did you report back what you had done, to anyone?

MR RICHARDSON: I told Mrs Mandela that I have killed Quqi.

MR RICHARD: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela say anything back to you?

MR RICHARDSON: She asked us if we had done the perfect job and I said yes. She wanted to know where and I told her that this took place in Orlando East. She requested to accompany me to inspect the place and we went to the place and she told me that we have done a dirty job because there was a footpath that was used by people going or coming from school, and it was visible, they could see what happened there.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone come with you and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: No, it was the only two of us.

MR RICHARD: How did you travel there? By foot, by car?

MR RICHARDSON: We drove in a micro-bus.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the two of you?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: I return to my next ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you return to Stompie Sepei, you said these informers, people who were informing, you normally discussed it when you were seated as the Mandela United Football Club, was Quqi ever discussed?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there was a discussion about Quqi. Ronnie Sqoqonya used to talk about it and Sizwe Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: What was she informing about?

MR RICHARDSON: He said Quqi would come and go, she wouldn't be in one, in Mandela's house for a long time, she would come and go all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, about the informing, what was she informing about? There was nothing wrong in her coming and going, because she had her own place of abode?

MR RICHARDSON: A person who is an informer, is a person who is working with the police, though we did not get that information, what was she informing about, we did not get that information.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that we know, but when it was discussed, what was she informing about or was she just labelled an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: We just said that she was an impimpi.

CHAIRPERSON: Because with Sono and Tshabalala you said they were informers because of the incident of the shooting at your residence. Wouldn't that be the right one, about Sono and Tshabalala, Lolo Sono and Tshabalala?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there no incident which linked Quqi to the information, the informant?

MR RICHARDSON: There was no incident.

CHAIRPERSON: So if I understand you correctly, there was dissatisfaction that she would come and not stay for a long time, and go. That is how people labelled her an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, you told us that you yourself didn't believe that she was an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you tell your soccer players "no, you are wrong, she is not an informer"?

MR RICHARDSON: I told them that we should first get the truth about Quqi, but Quqi would come and go, we couldn't get a chance to learn more about her.

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence when you started, you said you were visiting the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela on Tuesdays and Thursdays, do you recall you saying that?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So when Quqi was discussed, was it the Tuesdays and Thursdays when you went to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, it is during those days.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, where did you live between 1986 and 1988?

MR RICHARDSON: I was staying at Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: During what stage did you visit her twice a week?

MR RICHARDSON: It was when I was still staying at my home, my house.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you leave your home then, because I have just elicited from you that you used to visit the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela on Tuesdays and Thursdays, now you are saying you are staying at her place. When did that happen?

MR RICHARDSON: I left my house on the 9th of November in 1988, after the shoot-out.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, on the 9th after the shoot-out, you were arrested and you came back on the 25th of November?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct. I stayed at Mrs Mandela's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Never went back to your house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true, I never went back to my house. Now, as I am arrested now, I was arrested in Mrs Mandela's house.

CHAIRPERSON: And now the incident of Quqi, according to your evidence, it would not be correct, because it was not discussed on Tuesdays and Thursdays, it was discussed almost on a daily basis, because you were staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela now? Or I don't follow, I am trying to follow really, assist me.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, what I am telling is true, we would discuss Quqi on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I am not saying you are lying or anything, I want to follow. Don't understand me wrongly that I say I only want to follow, I want explanations of things which are not clear to me. Let's start from the beginning, on the 9th of November police came and there was a shoot-out at your place, isn't it, and you were arrested?

MR RICHARDSON: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you came back on the 25th of November and you went directly to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never went back to your place, you now stayed permanently at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard, you may proceed.

MR RICHARD: I will leave that point and proceed. Now, back to the question.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Of the abduction?

MR RICHARD: Which incident happened next?

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think it is common course that the next incident was the abduction of the four youngsters?

MR RICHARD: I am happy to proceed on that basis.

JUDGE DE JAGER: All right, right.

MR RICHARD: Now, Mr Richardson, when did you first meet the person by the name of Stompie Sepei?

MR RICHARDSON: I first met Stompie on that particular year when we went to fetch them from the church, in 1988 on the 27th.

MR RICHARD: The 27th of which month?

MR RICHARDSON: 27th of December.

MR RICHARD: Did you know of him before then?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Who first mentioned his name?

MR RICHARDSON: The first person to mention his name was Xoliswa Falati.

MR RICHARD: When did she first mention his name?

MR RICHARDSON: On that first day, when I saw him in the church, Stompie that is.

CHAIRPERSON: Which church and where is that church?

MR RICHARDSON: The church is situated in Orlando West, next to Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: How far away from Mrs Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: If I am not mistaken, I think it is about two streets from Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: Now, you say Xoliswa Falati first mentioned Mr Sepei's name, where was she when she mentioned the name?

MR RICHARDSON: We were in the church, we went there to take those children.

MR RICHARD: Why did you go there to take those children?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that at first you went to the church, you never knew why you were at the church because you knew about Stompie there at the church, are you saying that? What was the purpose of your visitation?

MR RICHARDSON: Truly speaking, I want to say my legal representative is not asking questions the proper way, I am trying to explain how did I get to see Stompie. For me to go there to the church, it is like this - Xoliswa Falati came in the house in Diepkloof Extension, in the company of Nompumulelo Falati and Katiza Cebekhulu. The three of them, they came to the house. They went to the main house of Mrs Mandela, that is where they told Mrs Mandela about what was happening in the church.

MR RICHARD: Were you present when they told Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: I was not there when they were talking to Mrs Mandela, I was in one of the back rooms in the yard. I was told that Falati and Nompumulelo were there and Katiza.

MR RICHARD: Who told you that they were there?

MR RICHARDSON: Comrade Sledge is the one who told me.

MR RICHARD: Did comrade Sledge tell you why they were there and what they were saying about ...

MR RICHARDSON: No, he never mentioned that to me, up until such time when I was summoned by Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: Was that the first time that you had met Mr Cebekhulu or Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter, sorry Mrs Falati and her daughter?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it would serve our purposes to assume things, we just know the name Nompumulelo Falati. We don't know her association with Xoliswa Falati, so we cannot assume things.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. Do you know what relation Nompumulelo Falati is to Xoliswa Falati?

MR RICHARDSON: Nompumulelo is Falati's daughter, the first born, Xoliswa Falati's daughter.

MR RICHARD: Right. When did you first meet either Mrs Falati or her daughter or know of them?

MR RICHARDSON: On that particular day when we came to report about what was happening in the church, I met them there for the first time.

MR RICHARD: Now, you were telling us before I asked for details, that you were called after Sledge told you that they were there. Who called you?

MR RICHARDSON: I was called by Sledge, he told me that Mommy wanted to see me, and I went to the house and Mrs Mandela referred me to them and she told me that they were going to talk to me in the back room.

MR RICHARD: And did you go to the back room?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we went to the back room.

MR RICHARD: Who all went to the back room, was it you and who else?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Xoliswa Falati, Nompumulelo Falati and Katiza, myself and Sledge.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there was a person called Moss.

MR RICHARD: Did Moss have any other names?

MR RICHARDSON: I only know him as Moss.

MR RICHARD: Do you know any of these other names, John Morgan?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I know John Morgan.

MR RICHARD: What was he?

MR RICHARDSON: John Morgan was Mrs Mandela's driver.

MR RICHARD: Mpo Gift Mabelane, do you know who that was?

MR RICHARDSON: Mpo Gift Mabelane, yes I know him, he was one of the players in the Mandela Football Club.

MR RICHARD: Was he in the room with you, the back room?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Then Sibusiso Brian Mabusa?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I know Brian Mabusa.

MR RICHARD: What was he?

MR RICHARDSON: He was also a player in the Mandela United Football Club.

MR RICHARD: Was he in the back room with you?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, he was also present.

MR RICHARD: Now, where was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: She was in the main house.

MR RICHARD: What happened in the back room?

MR RICHARDSON: We listened to Katiza Cebekhulu giving us the full report about what was happening in the church. He said there was a priest by the name of Paul Verryn who were sleeping, who was sleeping with him by force. We also got from Falati, we learnt from Falati that these boys didn't even want to clean the place there. Myself and Sledge, we went to Mrs Mandela and we told her about what we heard, and she told us to take the minibus to go and fetch those children, after that, John Morgan drove for us and the other visitors who were also there.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, just slow down. Now, was there any talk of anybody by the name of Stompie Sepei at that stage?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Right, so you were told to take the minibus. Who got into the minibus?

MR RICHARDSON: We boarded with the other people from Mzimhlope Branch and Mandela United, we first left them, those who were coming from the other Branch and the kombi was driven by John Morgan. We were singing inside the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: This Branch, what is it, this Mzimhlope Branch? What branch of what organisation or Football Club or whatever?

MR RICHARDSON: Those were the supporters of Mandela United and we used to refer to them as the new Branch.

MR RICHARD: So, let's understand this, you were at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's Diepkloof home and my question was who got into the bus.

MR RICHARDSON: We got into the bus, myself, Sledge, Maxwell Madondo, Brian Mabusa, Falati and the daughter Nompumulelo and Katiza and those people whom we dropped them at Mzimhlope, those whom I have mentioned their names, we proceeded to the church with them.

MR RICHARD: So there were others than the people whom you have listed, who also got into the bus?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there were also other people.

MR RICHARD: Now, from the house where did you go first?

MR RICHARDSON: We started at Mzimhlope. Up town we dropped this other group of people.

MR RICHARD: Right, and from there where did you go next?

MR RICHARDSON: We went to the church.

MR RICHARD: Now, who went into the church?

MR RICHARDSON: We left John Morgan in the minibus, myself, Falati and the daughter Nompumulelo, Katiza, Sledge, Brian Mabusa, Maxwell Madondo, we went into the church house.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the Mzimhlope Branch people? Did they remain in the bus?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I said we first dropped them at Mzimhlope.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, at Mzimhlope, I am sorry, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you got into the church, who did you find there and who did you talk to, two questions?

MR RICHARDSON: When we got into the church, we asked Falati to lead us. She went there and knocked at the door, and we were told to come in. We got inside the house. If my memory serves me well, we stood in front of the stove and Sledge proceeded to the sitting room, or a room and then he found them playing cards.

MR RICHARD: Who is them, who did he find playing cards?

MR RICHARDSON: There were many people who were staying there in the church house, people who did not have shelter.

MR RICHARD: Now, how many people?

MR RICHARDSON: There were so many and I only ended in the kitchen because Falati found Stompie busy there and she said "here is Stompie" and Maxwell Madondo stood at the other side with Stompie and then they pointed out Kenny, Bilu, Thabiso and so on. Sledge came from the sitting room with Thabiso.

MR RICHARD: They pointed out and you mentioned a name. Who was pointed out?

MR RICHARDSON: Falati pointed out Stompie to us. Bilu and Thabiso and Kenny.

MR RICHARD: And what was Mr Madondo doing?

MR RICHARDSON: He was doing nothing at that time.

MR RICHARD: Who went into the other place where they were playing cards?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Sledge.

MR RICHARD: Who, what did he do where they were playing cards?

MR RICHARDSON: He stopped them, he told them to come to the kitchen. Others tried to escape through windows and through the door, running away. He came back with Kenny.

MR RICHARD: Why would people run away?

MR RICHARDSON: I have no idea.

MR RICHARD: Now, you had these people in the kitchen, what happened in the kitchen?

MR RICHARDSON: I told them and I said "comrades, I am Jerry Richardson, I am the coach for the Mandela United Football Club, Mrs Mandela told us to come and fetch you." They said nothing and they said if that is the instruction from Mrs Mandela, then it was fine for them to go and we left the house.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you go next?

MR RICHARDSON: We went straight to the minibus, we got inside ululating songs, we went to Diepkloof Extension.

MR RICHARD: And where in Diepkloof Extension did you go to?

MR RICHARDSON: We went to Mrs Mandela's house.

MR RICHARD: Now, at the house, Mrs Mandela's house, where did you take the young people that you had taken from the church, the church house?

MR RICHARDSON: We took them straight to the back rooms.

MR RICHARD: And what happened in the back rooms?

MR RICHARDSON: I went back to report to Mrs Mandela and we told her that we have arrived. I requested Morgan to go and fetch a chair for Mrs Mandela to come and sit in the back rooms, as there were no chairs in the back rooms.

MR RICHARD: And now, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela go into the back rooms?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, she went to those rooms, back rooms.

MR RICHARD: Now, can you list the people who were there in the back room with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can mention those people. It was John Morgan, Jerry Richardson, Sledge, Brian Mabusa, Maxwell Madondo, those are the only names that I can remember.

MR RICHARD: Were there more people that you cannot remember?

MR RICHARDSON: And Katiza Cebekhulu was also there and Nompumulelo.

MR RICHARD: So Mrs Falati's daughter was there? Sorry, Mrs Falati's daughter was there and where was Mrs Falati?

MR RICHARDSON: She was also present.

MR RICHARD: Now, who from the church was in there, had any people gone or was it the same people?

MR RICHARDSON: The only people who were there were those who we were coming from the church.

JUDGE DE JAGER: The four youngsters, were they there?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Right, now, what happened in that back room?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela questioned them as to what was happening in the church.

MR RICHARD: What did they say?

MR RICHARDSON: They did not respond. They kept quiet. Mrs Mandela told us that she was leaving them with us, and then she left for the main house. We divided them among us, Sledge was with Stompie, Shoes was with Bilu, Maxwell Madondo was with the other one who was taken to the bathroom.

MR RICHARD: And who were you with?

MR RICHARDSON: I was with Kenny.

MR RICHARD: Now, where was Mrs Falati?

MR RICHARDSON: She was sitting there in that room with the others.

MR RICHARD: Now, once you divided you amongst you, what did you do to Kenny Kgase?

MR RICHARDSON: I questioned Kenny and I said "as old as you are, why do you allow a white man to sodomise children", he said he had no choice, he was coming from Botswana and he was looking for something. I slashed him across his face, I left him like that and I put him into the room.

MR RICHARD: The interpreter said you slapped or slashed?

CHAIRPERSON: Slapped.

MR RICHARD: Slapped? You slapped him across the face and you put him there?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Where did you put him?

MR RICHARDSON: In the same room where Mrs Falati and the others were.

MR RICHARD: And then what did you do?

MR RICHARDSON: We waited for a report from Sledge and Amos.

MR RICHARD: What was Sledge and the other colleague doing?

MR RICHARDSON: Sledge came with Stompie and he told us that Stompie said he had sold out four guerrillas.

MR RICHARD: He had sold out four guerrillas, what do you mean by sold out?

MR RICHARDSON: Stompie informed about four guerrillas, that is what I am trying to say.

MR RICHARD: Where were these four guerrillas?

MR RICHARDSON: They were in Parys.

MR RICHARD: And what had Sledge done to Stompie then, do you know?

MR RICHARDSON: He brought him back.

MR RICHARD: Did Sledge do anything to Stompie while he was talking to him, do you know?

CHAIRPERSON: Were they not in separate rooms thereafter, when they questioned the four?

MR RICHARD: Let me rephrase it.

MR RICHARDSON: We were in different places.

MR RICHARD: Right, after you received the report about Stompie and Sledge, what did you do next?

MR RICHARDSON: All the reports came, but Stompie's report was very serious. Bilu and Thabiso said that this priest wanted to sodomise them, that is Paul Verryn. We assaulted them, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't the report that Paul Verryn is sleeping with them against their will?

MR RICHARDSON: Something like that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I don't want something like that, I want to know, you were there, you should know. What report did Mrs Falati give in respect of these boys with Father Paul Verryn?

MR RICHARDSON: She said that they were sleeping with Paul Verryn, and they did not want to clean up the house.

CHAIRPERSON: At their own free will sleeping with him?

MR RICHARDSON: I think they were free to do that, because they did not have a shelter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now, you had received reports from your other colleagues, including the report about Mr Sepei having sold out four guerrillas in Parys, what did you do next?

MR RICHARDSON: After getting those reports, I went to fetch Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: And then?

MR RICHARDSON: I told, I showed her Kenny and I told her that I trusted this old one and he told us that Paul Verryn touched him on his private parts. Sledge said Stompie said he had sold out four guerrillas. Mrs Mandela questioned him again, she wanted to know if he really did those things. Stompie said "yes, I did that".

MR RICHARD: Now, was Stompie assaulted in any way before he said "yes, I did that"?

MR RICHARDSON: No. He was assaulted after admitting to that.

MR RICHARD: So, we have now dealt with Stompie and Kenneth, what about the other two? What did they say?

MR RICHARDSON: They said Paul Verryn wants to sleep with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Slept or wanted to?

MR RICHARDSON: They said he wanted to sleep with them.

MR RICHARD: Now, we have the situation to sum it up and to clarify it, that all of them implicate Rev Verryn with wanting to sleep with them, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Did any of them say that Rev Verryn, now Bishop Verryn, had slept with them?

MR RICHARDSON: Except for Katiza, he is the one who mentioned that.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next step was to finish the summing up that Stompie had spoken about the four cadres in Parys, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela stood up, she slapped Kenny, pulled him by his hair and she did that slapping, all of them. She slapped all of them.

MR RICHARD: She slapped all four boys, young men?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, all four of them.

MR RICHARD: With what did she slap them?

MR RICHARDSON: The open hand across the face.

MR RICHARD: And after she had slapped all four, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: She said Stompie should not be left alive, he should be assaulted, killed and these children got a shock. We assaulted them. The person who was severely assaulted was Stompie.

MR RICHARD: How did you assault them?

MR RICHARDSON: Myself and Sledge, we took Stompie before hitting him with fists, Sledge would hold his hands and I would hold his feet and we would throw him up on the ceiling and let him come and fall on the floor.

MR RICHARD: Now, how often did you do that?

MR RICHARDSON: I think we did that for about six or seven times.

MR RICHARD: What injuries did he sustain as a result of being thrown into the air and let fall?

MR RICHARDSON: He was severely injured and his head on the other side, was swollen.

MR RICHARD: Did he sustain any other injuries besides to his head?

MR RICHARDSON: If we throw him up and come back, fall by himself on the floor, it is obvious that even his body would be injured.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you throw him to the ceiling?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we would do that, we would throw him up towards the ceiling and then he would come back, falling down on the floor.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How high, higher than your head?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, higher than our heads.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did he touch the ceiling?

MR RICHARDSON: That was possible, because the ceiling was not so high, it was just a normal room, yes, he did touch the ceiling.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And then he fell down on the floor, was it a cement floor or a wooden floor?

MR RICHARDSON: It was a floor like this one, with tiles, concrete floor with tiles on top.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did he bleed?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, he was bleeding.

JUDGE DE JAGER: where from?

MR RICHARDSON: Through the mouth and through the ears.

MR RICHARD: Now, were any of the others including Stompie for that matter, assaulted in any other manner besides being thrown to the ceiling and let fall?

MR RICHARDSON: Stompie was the only one that was assaulted in that manner, the others were beaten up with sticks and sjamboks.

MR RICHARD: And what else?

MR RICHARDSON: Those were the things that we were using, the sjambok and the stick.

MR RICHARD: Were they ever kicked or punched or slapped?

MR RICHARDSON: We were using all that type, we were kicking them and doing all the other things, and even hitting them with fists.

MR RICHARD: Now, what injuries did the three others sustain?

MR RICHARDSON: They were injured, their mouths were swollen and their eyes were closed and even their bodies had lacerations because of the sjambok.

MR RICHARD: Now, when did all that happen, which date of December?

MR RICHARDSON: On that very first day.

MR RICHARD: Do you recall the date?

MR RICHARDSON: If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the 27th.

MR RICHARD: Could it have been the 29th? Now, the next question I asked is after you had finished assaulting all four of them in the manner you have described and throwing Mr Sepei into the air and letting him fall, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: Nothing else happened, we stayed there with them. Mrs Mandela left and we started singing and we were wiping the blood that was on the walls.

MR RICHARD: Did they ever get assaulted again?

MR RICHARDSON: Some of them were never assaulted again, but with Stompie the assaulting was continuous.

MR RICHARD: Well, all right, let's go back to Stompie, for how long was he assaulted?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot say for days, but I can say during those days, from the 27th up to the 31st, Guybon would come and kick him.

MR RICHARD: Was Guybon part of the first assault?

MR RICHARDSON: No, he was not present.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the first day of the assault, how long did you assault him for, one hour or three hours, him being Stompie?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot say for sure as to how long did this take place.

MR RICHARD: Was it a short period or a long period?

MR RICHARDSON: It was a long time, it took some time.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you stopped, was it early in the night or late in the night or in the afternoon?

MR RICHARDSON: It was in the night, during the night.

MR RICHARD: Now, the other three, were they assaulted for the same period as Mr Sepei or shorter, or a longer period?

MR RICHARDSON: Stompie was assaulted and it went on for a very long time, but with the others, they were not assaulted as Stompie.

MR RICHARD: Now, if I understood you correct, the other three were not assaulted again after that night, am I correct or were they assaulted again?

MR RICHARDSON: No, the following day, they were never assaulted, but with Stompie it was continuous.

MR RICHARD: Now, for how many days did the assaults carry on?

MR RICHARDSON: I said I cannot remember for how many days.

MR RICHARD: Now, let's deal with the other three first.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interpose here Mr Richard. Mr Richardson, why did you keep on assaulting Stompie, did you want to get something out of him, did it give you pleasure or why did you keep on assaulting him over such a long period?

MR RICHARDSON: As the order was issued that Stompie was to die, I had no control over the situation, I couldn't tell the people to stop. That was the only reason, it was because of the instruction that was issued.

ADV BOSMAN: But if he was to die, he could simply have been killed? Was it discussed amongst you why you kept on assaulting him without killing him?

MR RICHARDSON: Things, the situation would not allow us to do something that was going to please Stompie, we wanted to whatever would please us at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the thing is why didn't you follow the orders, just to kill him and assault him over several days, the order was kill him? Why did you not kill him, but assault him over several days, that is the question asked from you? We know that things were not right before, but here we want to know why? The order was clear.

MR RICHARDSON: I do not have an answer for that question.

ADV BOSMAN: Who took the lead, who was in charge whilst all these assaults were going on?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela was on the lead.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, if I understood you well, you said after your arrival, you fetched her from the main house and a report was given of what they said to you people, and she slapped each one of them. Now, you say the assaults were taking several days, who was taking the lead in those assaults?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Let's go back to the first assault, the first day ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: There is something formal, that I just want to place on record. Stompie was about 14 years of age, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And Kenneth Kgase was about 30 years of age?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mono was about 20?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is also correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And Mekgwe was about 21, 22?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So Stompie was in fact a child in comparison to the others?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And I just want to continue, the others weren't assaulted later, they were only assaulted on the first day, isn't that so?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But Stompie was also assaulted on the second day, and later on?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, to go back to the first day, who struck the first blow against Mr Sepei?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: With what did she hit him?

MR RICHARDSON: With an open hand.

MR RICHARD: Did she ever hit him with anything else?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, who after that, led the assault on Mr Sepei?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: When did Sonwabo join this gathering in the back room?

MR RICHARDSON: After two days, he joined. He was told that there were comrades who were to be disciplined.

MR RICHARD: Now for how long were the three older young men assaulted on that first night, the first day?

MR RICHARDSON: They were assaulted because while, when we stopped, they were bleeding.

MR RICHARD: And for how long was that, was that a long time or a short time?

MR RICHARDSON: A long time.

MR RICHARD: Now once you stopped, your group of people stopped assaulting the other three, did you continue assaulting Mr Sepei?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: So, at some time in that night, you stopped assaulting all four of them?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now the next, what did you do once you stopped, did you, where did you leave the four?

MR RICHARDSON: After assaulting them, we wiped their blood on the walls and we arranged some food for them, they ate.

MR RICHARD: Could Mr Sepei eat?

MR RICHARDSON: It was not easy, it was very difficult for Stompie to eat.

MR RICHARD: Now, after you had finished eating, did everyone go to sleep?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Mrs Mandela went back to her room and we were left there with them in that room, and I spent the night with them.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just interpose here, when Adv Semenya placed his name on the record, he said he is appearing for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, unless he has no objection just to be cut short, I don't know Adv Semenya, but for our record, let's get the person whom was placed on the record correctly, let's make an effort and call her Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MR RICHARD: I apologise. Now, after the night had passed you said you had slept the night with the four, what did you do in the morning, when did this assault start again?

MR RICHARDSON: We woke up as usual in the morning, the three of them were given water to wash themselves. Stompie was washed by Ronnie Sqoqonya and he had breakfast. After breakfast, Mrs Mandela told us to keep an eye on Stompie, she told us that she was leaving with Thabiso and Bilu.

MR RICHARD: Now during that second day, how often was Mr Sepei assaulted?

MR RICHARDSON: Only one person was responsible, it was Guybon and I would even stop him from hitting him, Stompie that is.

MR RICHARD: My question was how often was Mr Sepei assaulted? Was it once, more?

MR RICHARDSON: Only once.

MR RICHARD: Who assaulted Mr Sepei?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Guybon.

MR RICHARD: And for how long?

MR RICHARDSON: Just for a short while.

MR RICHARD: Now, for how many more days were Mr Sepei in the Diepkloof house?

MR RICHARDSON: For about six days if I am not mistaken.

MR RICHARD: And during those six days, was he assaulted on any more occasions?

MR RICHARDSON: No, he was not assaulted during those days.

MR RICHARD: Now, during those days, what was happening to the other three?

MR RICHARDSON: We would stay there with them, I would take them with the to gym, leave Stompie and Sledge behind and I would come back with them.

MR RICHARD: How was Stompie during this period?

MR RICHARDSON: It was, he was in a very bad condition, but at least he could move and go to the toilet by himself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, did the other three go with you to the gym, or who went with you to the gym?

MR RICHARDSON: The three of them would go with me to the gym.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Weren't their eyes swollen and couldn't you see that they had been assaulted?

MR RICHARDSON: It was not that obvious that they were assaulted, because their swelling had disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Guybon join the group, because the people you mentioned at first, Guybon wasn't there?

MR RICHARDSON: Guybon came on the second day, late in the afternoon or before evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone come to the Diepkloof house and make enquiries about the four persons that you had there?

MR RICHARDSON: Mainly people would come and investigate about these children.

MR RICHARD: Did you speak to any of them?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I would speak to them.

MR RICHARD: Who did you speak to?

MR RICHARDSON: I spoke to Frank Chikane and sister Bennet, Sydney Mufamadi.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR RICHARDSON: And Dr Mohlanye.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you speak to those people once or more than once?

MR RICHARDSON: Only once.

MR RICHARD: All at the same time or on different occasions?

MR RICHARDSON: On different occasions.

MR RICHARD: Now if you take the Rev Chikane, what did he ask you?

MR RICHARDSON: He said he wanted to see all the players of the Mandela United.

MR RICHARD: And what did you say to him?

MR RICHARDSON: It was very late in the night, at about ten or eleven, and I told him that they were asleep and I told him to come the following day.

MR RICHARD: Did he come the following day?

MR RICHARDSON: He came the following day, but I was not there.

MR RICHARD: Did you see him again?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: If you take Mr Mufamadi, what did you tell him?

MR RICHARDSON: Mr Mufamadi and sister Bennet came on the same day, the third person who accompanied them is not known to me. They requested to see these children. I told them that they were at school.

MR RICHARD: Now, who else did you talk to?

MR RICHARDSON: Dr Mohlanye requested me to bring this children.

MR RICHARD: What did you answer?

MR RICHARDSON: I told him to come and fetch them.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

MR RICHARDSON: I think it was during that period, the 29th or 30th of December.

MR RICHARD: Now, what happened to Kenneth Kgase?

MR RICHARDSON: Kenneth Kgase escaped and left the premises on a Saturday, he ran away.

MR RICHARD: How did he escape?

MR RICHARDSON: Sledge told me that they were going to wash the car and there was Kenny, he was with Kenny, and I told him to take Kenny with and then they left to clean the car. Within a few minutes, he came back telling me that this person had disappeared.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, that was after Stompie had been killed?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: After how many days did Kenneth Kgase escape?

MR RICHARDSON: If my memory serves me correctly, it was after seven days.

MR RICHARD: And then after how long did you release the others? How many days did the others stay there?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot remember as to how many days did they leave, they went to a committee called Crisis Committee in Dobsonville.

MR RICHARD: Now, was it before Kenneth escaped or after Mr Kgase escaped that the other two were handed back to the Crisis Committee?

MR RICHARDSON: It was after Kenneth Kgase had escaped.

MR RICHARD: Now, you are applying for amnesty for killing Mr Sepei. After how many days did you decide to kill Mr Sepei?

MR RICHARDSON: It took us two days because even the Crisis Committee knew about what was happening.

MR RICHARD: Now, why did ...

ADV BOSMAN: Why do you say this? Why do you say they knew what was happening?

MR RICHARDSON: I say that because they would come to me and they could see me in the eyes, that I was guilty, because it is so easy to see a guilty person in the eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Guilty of what?

MR RICHARDSON: A person who has killed someone.

MR RICHARD: Now, after the first day when you abducted the four men and one child, after how long was it before the Crisis Committee made contact with the Diepkloof house, whether through you or somebody else?

MR RICHARDSON: After three days, because most people in Soweto knew about this issue.

MR RICHARD: I am repeating a previous ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did they know of the killing or the abduction? What issue are we speaking about?

MR RICHARDSON: The taking of the children from the church.

ADV BOSMAN: But Mr Richard, where is this taking us, all these questions about the Crisis Committee? I mean, what is the issue here?

MR RICHARD: The Crisis Committee made frequent visits to the Diepkloof house, during the course of the period over which visits were made, a decision was made to kill Mr Sepei and that decision was carried out. My next question is, the previous question that I asked was after how many days did you decide to kill Mr Sepei and when did you carry out this, that is the sequence.

CHAIRPERSON: We rather finish the killing, we want to know how he was killed.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. A decision was made to kill Mr Sepei, who made that decision?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: Were you present when she made the decision?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: How was the decision communicated to you?

MR RICHARDSON: She said "Richardson, Sledge, the two of you my boys, take that child and dump him somewhere."

MR RICHARD: Who else was present when she said that?

MR RICHARDSON: It was myself, Sledge and Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: Then, what did you and Sledge do?

MR RICHARDSON: Myself and Sledge, we told her that we were going to do the job.

MR RICHARD: And then, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: The same people from the Crisis Committee came in the night as we were preparing to go with Stompie, we did not go out and we just said "here are those people" and we hid ourselves. Myself and Sledge, we hid ourselves and the people told them that we were not there, and the people from the Crisis Committee left. The following day, Sonwabo told us that we were actually taking a long time with this person and he told us that we were going to bring Mommy in trouble if we take more time. Then we took him on that particular day.

MR RICHARD: Who is we took, who is we?

MR RICHARDSON: Myself and Sledge.

MR RICHARD: Who did you take?

MR RICHARDSON: We took Stompie.

MR RICHARD: Where did you take him to?

MR RICHARDSON: We walked to a place next to New Canada, on that hill or mountain, it was the, the time was about half past eight.

MR RICHARD: Half past eight in the morning or at night?

MR RICHARDSON: Half past eight in the evening.

MR RICHARD: Now, could Stompie walk on his own or did you have to help him?

MR RICHARDSON: He was much better, because he could walk by himself and we were consoling him, saying that we were taking him to his home in Parys. Sledge had a garden scissors with him. We showed him the trains coming from Orlando to Mzimhlope and we told him that we were getting closer to Park Station, we were going to take a taxi. We reached that particular place that we decided upon and we said to Stompie, "let us sit down and relax", we did so.

MR RICHARD: And then, what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: Sledge held him with his hands and the garden shear was already dislocated, there was the first part and the other part. We pressed him downwards, I put this part of the garden shear on his throat.

MR RICHARD: How did you kill him?

MR RICHARDSON: We put this part of the scissors from this other side, behind the voice box to the other side, it protruded on the other side, and then we slit his throat. We slit his throat.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you stab him with this thing when you said the other side which I didn't see, what are you referring to? Do you mean you just put it and it went through?

MR RICHARDSON: We stabbed him and the other part of the scissors protruded on the other side of his neck, we slit his throat.

MR RICHARD: Could you please describe these garden shears, how big were they?

MR RICHARDSON: It is the one that is used to trim the trees and cut the lawn.

MR RICHARD: And you indicated with your hands a distance of more than 14, 15 inches?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Is it not correct that there is a bolt in the middle, if you take it apart, you get two separate pieces?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, who carried the garden shears?

MR RICHARDSON: It was with Sledge.

MR RICHARD: Now, who used the garden shear, one part or two parts on Stompie?

MR RICHARDSON: Sledge had his own piece and I was with my own piece of the garden shear.

MR RICHARD: Who took the shears apart?

MR RICHARDSON: I did.

MR RICHARD: Now, who used their part of the shears to stab Stompie? Was it you or Sledge?

MR RICHARDSON: I used my piece and Sledge used his own piece.

MR RICHARD: Now, if I understood your evidence correctly, you pushed it through his neck so that the sharp point came out the other side?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richard, I think we are satisfied that they killed him. I don't think we need for purposes of this exercise, go into all the finer details.

MR RICHARD: As it pleases you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Except if you want to go into them for some reason or other.

MR RICHARD: As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't it serve a purpose for the victims that they know precisely how he was killed? I think it does serve a purpose that the victims should know precisely.

MR RICHARD: Now, how often did you stab with your part of the shears?

MR RICHARDSON: I stabbed him only once.

MR RICHARD: You say Sledge used his part as well?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What did he do with his?

MR RICHARDSON: He stabbed him.

MR RICHARD: Where did he stab him?

MR RICHARDSON: On the neck.

MR RICHARD: How often?

MR RICHARDSON: Only once.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, how long did it take for Stompie to die?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot say for sure, because we didn't have watches on that particular day.

MR RICHARD: Was it a short time or a long time?

MR RICHARDSON: It took a while, a long time.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you leave before he was dead or after he was dead?

MR RICHARDSON: We waited for him to die.

MR RICHARD: What did you do with his body?

MR RICHARDSON: We left it there.

MR RICHARD: And then where did you go?

MR RICHARDSON: We went back to Diepkloof Extension.

MR RICHARD: Did you report back to anyone?

MR RICHARDSON: We reported to Mrs Mandela, telling her that we had done the job.

MR RICHARD: At the Human Rights Violation Hearing, there was a story or a version put forward that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself, at some stage, stabbed Mr Sepei, is that true or false?

MR RICHARDSON: No, that was not true.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, what did she say if anything?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, she asked if we did a perfect job, we said "yes".

MR RICHARD: Did you make any attempt to bury Stompie Sepei's body or otherwise hide it?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, we move on to Mr Ikaneng, Lerothodi.

ADV BOSMAN: Before you move on, Mr Richard, may I just interpose here, these three other young men who were abducted, why were they assaulted? Was it simply, were there allegations that they slept with the Rev Paul Verryn?

MR RICHARDSON: It is very difficult for me to respond to that, they were just being assaulted.

ADV BOSMAN: But then surely there was nothing political in it then?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

ADV BOSMAN: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask questions like for instance, "Kenny, you old as you are, how do you allow yourself to sleep with the Rev Paul Verryn"? Weren't such questions asked?

MR RICHARDSON: I did ask that question.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean to the other three, or the other two rather?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I never asked the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. This killing, I did not understand what you meant "it took us two days to kill Stompie Sepei". What did you mean by that?

MR RICHARDSON: I was trying to say that the people from the Crisis Committee were monitoring us because they would come all the time, looking for these people, therefore it became more difficult for us to go and kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: If you had released Mr Sepei to the Crisis Committee, could you have released him looking as he did?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, after how many days from the date of the abduction, let me rephrase and start again, from the time of the abduction until the time that you killed him, how many days had passed?

MR RICHARDSON: If I am not mistaken, I think it took us eight, seven to eight days.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, we turn to Lerothodi Ikaneng. This time I am going to do it from the event backwards. Who killed, who tried to kill Lerothodi Ikaneng, who committed the attempted murder with you?

MR RICHARDSON: It was myself.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR RICHARDSON: Kenneth, the one that I took from the church, Thabiso and Bilu and Isaac.

MR RICHARD: Now, why did you include men that you had abducted to assist you in what was an attempt to murder Mr Ikaneng, Lerothodi Ikaneng?

MR RICHARDSON: The reason for me to use them, it is because we regarded them as the people who had just joined us in our struggle.

MR RICHARD: What would be the purpose of taking them with?

MR RICHARDSON: I wanted them to be implicated also.

MR RICHARD: Now, when it was decided to try and kill Mr Ikaneng, and you went with the individuals you mentioned, could you please describe to us shortly who did what. What instrument was used?

MR RICHARDSON: If my memory serves me correctly, we were going to the gym with Kenny and the others. One other comrade called Buiq, he called me aside, he said "brother Jerry, I saw Lerothodi in the shop in the supermarket in Orlando West", I said "thank you very much, because he was wanted in Mrs Mandela's place". I went to tell Mrs Mandela about this and I told her that Lerothodi was seen at the supermarket. She said "you know your job, just go". I left and I selected Kenny, Bilu, Thabiso to help me. We went to Orlando West, we heard that he had gone to Mzimhlope, he was with his girlfriend. When we got there, we found him there with his girlfriend. We took this girlfriend to her home and we took Lerothodi to a place where he was to be killed. We were using the very same garden shear. We arrived at that place in Mzimhlope that was just underneath the bridge. I requested Isaac to do the killing. He failed, I took the garden shear and I stabbed him only once and I left him like that. I said "he is finished". The police van came and I said "here are the police, let us put him in some place there". We left him there.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, I didn't quite understand, when did the police come?

MR RICHARDSON: The police were just driving passed on the freeway.

MR RICHARD: Did the police see what you were doing with Mr Ikaneng?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, if the police hadn't come passed, what would you have done?

MR RICHARDSON: We were going to leave him there.

MR RICHARD: Now when you left him, what did you think? Did you think he was going to live or die?

MR RICHARDSON: We thought that he was going to die.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

MR RICHARDSON: Only one wound was inflicted on him.

MR RICHARD: Now you said you used the shears second. Who held him while you used it?

MR RICHARDSON: Bilu was holding him on the foot and Kenny was holding him on the other hand and I was holding the other hand and I instructed Isaac to stab him. Isaac could just put his hand and I grabbed this garden shear and I instructed him to hold the hand that I was holding. He didn't stab him as in making sure that the shear is penetrating the flesh.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, why was it decided that Mr Ikaneng should die?

MR RICHARDSON: Ikaneng was a player in the Mandela United Football Club, then he abandoned this Club and he went to join Sis Dudu's Club.

MR RICHARD: Who is Mrs Dudu, what is her full name?

MR RICHARDSON: I only know her as Dudu, the surname is Chili.

MR RICHARD: Now, you say that Mr Ikaneng was a member of your Football Club and he then went to play with Mrs Chili's organisation. Why was that good or bad?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela had a belief that if you defect from this team and go and join the other team, that means that you are taking out information and spreading the information of what was happening in that premises.

MR RICHARD: Was Mrs Chili a friend or an enemy?

MR RICHARDSON: She was a friend.

MR RICHARD: But then why would it be such a bad thing to go and play with a friend's team? Do you know?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I have no idea. I have no response.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Richard, can I just come in here, was Mrs Chili in any way involved in politics?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I know nothing about her background.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, who reported to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that Mr Ikaneng had decided to leave the Mandela United Football Club and join Mrs Chili's?

MR RICHARDSON: Myself.

MR RICHARD: What did you tell her in precise terms?

MR RICHARDSON: I told her that Lerothodi was defecting, was leaving the team.

MR RICHARD: Did you have a reason why he was leaving the team?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: Then what did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela say back to you once you gave her this information?

MR RICHARDSON: She said she does not want anyone to leave the team.

MR RICHARD: Did she give a reason why she objected to people leaving the team?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What was that reason?

MR RICHARDSON: She said that person has full information about what was happening in the premises, therefore that particular person would later spread the information outside.

MR RICHARD: What did Mr Ikaneng do with the football team, your football team?

MR RICHARDSON: He was also a player in the Mandela United and we would support and guard Mrs Mandela while attending the funerals and rallies and to safeguard the premises, he was also one of the people who were doing that job.

MR RICHARD: How long had he been with the football team?

MR RICHARDSON: If I am not mistaken, I think he had two years with the team.

MR RICHARD: Now, Mrs Chili, was she a member of the ANC?

MR RICHARDSON: I just said I knew nothing about her background.

MR RICHARD: Was the United Mandela Football Team ever involved in any other attacks on Mrs Chili's members or property?

CHAIRPERSON: No, how could you come with that, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: If one reads the Human Rights Violation Hearing's transcript, there is a suggestion that there was an attack on Mrs Chili's house.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is formerly, lead that evidence, then that is not before us.

MR RICHARD: I will leave the question. What was your reaction to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's instruction to you regarding Mr Ikaneng?

MR RICHARDSON: I did not say anything against that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you follow the question Mr Richardson?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the question?

MR RICHARD: The question was, what was your reaction and what did you think, to amplify it, of the instruction to you regarding Mr Ikaneng? Did you just accept it or did you argue with it or did you challenge it, debate it?

MR RICHARDSON: I took the instruction as is.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richardson, we know these days players are being paid and even coaches, did you pay the players anything or did you receive any money for being the coach?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I was not getting money. I can say I was just helping the club, and I was also contributing to the struggle by coaching this club.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did the club get money from, did they receive a portion of gate money or how did you buy clothes and boots and foot balls, soccer balls?

MR RICHARDSON: Each and everything that was used by the club, would come from Mrs Mandela.

ADV BOSMAN: And how did you and your family live? Where did you get money from, I believe you had children?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I have two children. I was working in a place called Plaza Rail.

ADV BOSMAN: What I don't understand Mr Richardson, if you trained soccer players over a period of two years, don't you bond with those people? What I mean by bonding, don't you feel a sort of special affection for these people after a while?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I had those feelings.

ADV BOSMAN: So, how did it come about that you killed so easily without asking any questions?

MR RICHARDSON: It happened.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Let's examine this point, Mr Richardson, how many football matches did the Mandela United Football team actually play a month or a year, in 1988?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Richard, I am sorry that I have tempted you to go into this, because I don't think it is really relevant, I only wanted to know for interest sake. I don't think it will help him in the amnesty whether they played 20 or whether they played five.

MR RICHARD: The matter may well be argued, with ease from the record of the hearing two years ago, I really don't believe we need to go over the matters.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now, what were your feelings towards Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? Did you admire her, hate her, love her, respect her?

MR RICHARDSON: I respected her, I liked her.

MR RICHARD: In your evidence you have described her as Mommy, why do you use that appellation?

MR RICHARDSON: I was respecting her so much, it was very difficult to refer to her as Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, that is why I decided to call her Mommy.

MR RICHARD: For how long have you called her Mommy?

MR RICHARDSON: For about three years, up until when I was arrested.

MR RICHARD: So for three years before you were arrested?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, we return to the story of Mr Pretorius.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do so, let's get the instructions because I have a note that when he was spotted at the supermarket, he went and told Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about Lerothodi and she said "go, you know what to do".

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, I follow your point. Now, you will recall you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that Lerothodi Ikaneng was no longer with the team. What was the reaction to him leaving the team, how did people feel about it, how did you feel about it? Did you feel happy or unhappy?

MR RICHARDSON: I was very much unhappy about that.

MR RICHARD: What was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's reaction to the news as well?

MR RICHARDSON: She was also dissatisfied, hence she said that we knew our job. She said that we knew our job.

MR RICHARD: What did you understand when she said "you knew your job"?

MR RICHARDSON: I thought that meant that we should go and get him and kill him.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you ask her whether that is what she meant?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I never questioned her, because I knew that was our job.

MR RICHARD: Now, where was Mr Ikaneng at the time that you had that conversation?

MR RICHARDSON: He was not in Mrs Mandela's premises.

CHAIRPERSON: How long were you looking for him after he was spotted by Buiq at this supermarket, because I think in your evidence you said "yes, we have been looking for him for a long time"?

MR RICHARDSON: I can say we had been looking for him for about a month, we would hear that he is in Sharpville, in Vereeniging, and so on. He was no longer in Orlando West.

CHAIRPERSON: who is the we?

MR RICHARDSON: It was myself and Sledge.

MR RICHARD: How long after that report to Mrs Mandela, did the conversation about finding him in the supermarket, take place? One week, one month, two months?

MR RICHARDSON: About two months, we had been looking for Ikaneng for two months.

MR RICHARD: Why did you think it was necessary to report the fact that he had been seen, back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: We wanted to get money to get transport to go and fetch him.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you made the report to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, what was her response?

MR RICHARDSON: She gave us R10-00 to go and fetch him.

MR RICHARD: What did she say you should do with him when you found him?

MR RICHARDSON: She said "you know your job", that is what she said.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. To return to the policeman, Mr Pretorius, now your evidence there was that you first met him at the High Court. When was that? Can you remember which year or month?

MR RICHARDSON: I can say it was 1988 or 1989. I cannot remember the month.

MR RICHARD: How many months before the death of Stompie Sepei would it have been? One month, five months, one week?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Maybe it is easier to ask how long before Pretorius himself was killed at his house, on the 9th of November?

MR RICHARD: As you wish. How long before Mr Pretorius' death, did you meet him in the High Court in Johannesburg? Was it one month, three months, six months? A short time or a long time?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, at that meeting, what did he say to you?

MR RICHARDSON: Are you talking about the meeting in court?

MR RICHARD: Yes, the meeting at the High Court.

MR RICHARDSON: What he told me was that he looked at my photo and he saw me and he confirmed that it was me on that photo and he told me that my days are numbered, and I just said that he was joking.

MR RICHARD: What did you feel about what he said to you?

MR RICHARDSON: I felt bad about that.

MR RICHARD: Were you scared or happy?

MR RICHARDSON: I was not scared, because I was with Mrs Mandela.

MR RICHARD: Then you saw him again, where did you see him the next time?

MR RICHARDSON: I saw him at Mzimhlope, I was on my way to the stadium, Ellis Park Stadium.

MR RICHARD: And where exactly was it at Mzimhlope that you met him, was it at the road, the station, the bus stop, the taxi?

MR RICHARDSON: Next to the railway station.

MR RICHARD: What was he doing there?

MR RICHARDSON: As a policeman, I think he was just patrolling.

MR RICHARD: And now, did you see him first or did he see you first, who approached who?

MR RICHARDSON: I was in a car, the car was parked and I was wearing a tracksuit with Mandela United emblem, I am not sure who saw who first, but I heard him calling me'

MR RICHARD: What did you do?

MR RICHARDSON: I went closer to him, I thought that he was looking for some place.

MR RICHARD: Did you recognise him?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, when I looked at him, I said I know this boer, I saw him in the High Court.

MR RICHARD: What did he tell you to do?

MR RICHARDSON: He requested me to accompany him, I refused.

MR RICHARD: What did he say to you?

MR RICHARDSON: He said he was going to arrest me, I refused, he got out of the car and sat on top of the boot.

MR RICHARD: Can you tell us what the conversation between you and him was?

MR RICHARDSON: He said "Richardson, you know more about this Club and you always attend each and every funeral and now I want to take you with" and then he took out the police identification. He left with me, he took me out of Mzimhlope.

MR RICHARD: Where to? Where did he take you to?

MR RICHARDSON: He took me and he left me half way to Ellis Park and he told me that he was going to come and fetch me again.

MR RICHARD: And during the ride from Mzimhlope to half way to Ellis Park, what did he say to you?

MR RICHARDSON: He told me that he wanted me to come and work with him. I asked him how so, and he said, "we are going to hire you and you will get better money and work with us", I refused. I refused and said "no, I cannot do that".

MR RICHARD: At the Human Rights Violation Hearing, you said you did become an informer, didn't you?

MR RICHARDSON: I cannot remember that.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree to inform for him?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I refused.

MR RICHARD: Very well. Now, did you ever see him again?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: On the day of the shoot-out at your property in Soweto, did you see him?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR RICHARD: When did you become aware it was he that got killed in your kitchen?

MR RICHARDSON: I heard and I saw when I was coming out of the cell, I was called to go there and identify and I identified only the two cadres and I said this was Sipho and the other one Debogo. The police told me that this other one was their member.

MR RICHARD: Did you see him?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I saw him.

MR RICHARD: Now, during that period in jail, what did the police say to you about being an informer, if anything?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they emphasised that myself and Pretorius, we were involved in some secret and I disputed that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of Pretorius?

MR RICHARD: Were you invited again to become an informer during that period of detention?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, what is his relevance?

MR RICHARD: I am sorry, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Of Mr Pretorius?

MR RICHARD: Mr Pretorius died in the accused's house during the shoot-out when the police killed the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say that he was in the van when the shoot-out took place?

MR RICHARD: The applicant was in the van.

CHAIRPERSON: So it has nothing to do with him because he never exchanged fire with them.

MR RICHARD: I will leave the point Chairperson. One last point before I close, Mr Richardson, how do you feel about what you did to Mr Sono, Mr Tshabalala, Stompie Sepei, Lerothodi Ikaneng and the people you abducted? What are your feelings?

MR RICHARDSON: Truly speaking, I am hurting because these children died. I don't know what to say to this Committee. I am hurting and I feel very bad, I even lost weight because of thinking about these incidents.

MR RICHARD: And what do you have to say to the families of the deceased?

MR RICHARDSON: To the families of the deceased, I would like to say God is working in so many ways because when I was sentenced, I was on deathrow, I thought there was going to be peace in this country, because I am the one who fetched the children. That is why today I am opening up.

MR RICHARD: Are you prepared, do you still make the offer to meet with the families of the deceased and the surviving victims of your acts?

MR RICHARDSON: I feel very bad because Joyce was with me in 1997 and she talked to me. The only person that I haven't made contact with, were the Sono family, because they haven't found the bones of their son and bury him the right way. If it was possible for me, I would like to ask the Committee to go with me, and dig in that mine shaft and get their bones.

MR RICHARD: And are you prepared to meet with Mr and Mrs Sono, Mr and Mrs Tshabalala, Mrs Sepei, Mr Ikaneng and talk to them, reconcile with them?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I am willing to talk to them. I am prepared to go down on my knees in front of them and say that this is because of what we did. I don't know whether my asking for forgiveness will have any weight.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions and I do not intend to call any further witnesses.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Adv Semenya, I notice it is passed four. Would any cross-examination serve any purpose, because I don't think you would even be able to finish your cross-examination today?

MR SEMENYA: I do not think I would finish, no.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other problem is that we haven't made arrangements with Correctional Services, because normally they have to leave this place at four o'clock, but we could make a request with them that they bring them earlier tomorrow, that we probably start at nine o'clock and go up to five, would that suit you?

MR SEMENYA: That would suit me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that kind of arrangement suit everybody?

MS MBUYISA: That will suit me also, Chairperson.

MR RICHARD: I am more than happy to sit tomorrow until finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Until we finish? We don't know, we will first hear how the cross-examination goes. Correctional Services, I should apologise on behalf of the Committee, that we sat beyond four o'clock without informing you and we would request you that tomorrow you bring Mr Richardson earlier, that we commence at nine and we will probably go on until five o'clock. Make the necessary logistical arrangements. Does that go with your approval, because you are running away now? We will adjourn for the day and commence with cross-examination of Mr Richardson tomorrow at nine in the morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS