ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we shall now proceed with the application of Blose.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear for the applicant, Mr Sipho Peter Blose.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. Chairperson, before we proceed with this matter I would like to bring to the attention of the Committee that the victims have not been located in this matter. The TRC issued a notice by way of an advert in the Sowetan newspaper. I have got with me a copy of the advert.
CHAIRPERSON: When was it advertised?
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, from the copy of this advert I am told it's handwritten indicating that it was advertised on the 10th November 1999. I propose to hand up the copy of the advert.
CHAIRPERSON: You may do so Mr Mapoma.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Vuyani Mbekle was the person according to the information before us who actually killed the deceased. Do you know whether he could be traced or given notice of the application?
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, according to the information which appears on the application papers Vuyani Mbekle is reported to have himself died.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, I didn't pick that one up.
CHAIRPERSON: It's in the further statement where they are asking for further particulars.
MR MAPOMA: Page 11, paragraph 1.1.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, thank you. Oh I see, ended his life.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma we see that it was indeed advertised in the Sowetan but we must again and now probably vociferously express our displeasure because if we don't get dates appearing on the advert and that being handwritten, does not comply with the Act that has empowered us to hear these applications and specifically Section 19.4 enjoins us to do that because the victims must know and it should be future practise that we had all that and it should be given to the Evidence Leader prior to leaving Cape Town coming to a hearing. We know exactly if there is publication, we must have the whole tear sheet and please convey that to whoever is responsible, either the media office or the evidence analysts because we cannot continue with such unsatisfactory or sloppy work that now emanates from our offices.
MR MAPOMA: As the Chairperson pleases, I appreciate that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, before you do? What language does Mr Blose speak?
MR KOOPEDI: Zulu.
SIPHO PETER BLOSE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Blose is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter?
MR BLOSE: Yes it's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that this matter involves the killing of one Thomas Motobi around 1987?
MR BLOSE: Yes that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now during this time were you a member of any political organisation?
MR BLOSE: Yes indeed I was a member of the ANC and it's armed wing uMkhonto weSizwe.
MR KOOPEDI: And where were you based around 1987?
MR BLOSE: I was based inside the country but on occasion I would go to Botswana, Angola and come back again.
MR KOOPEDI: Were you a member of any unit?
MR BLOSE: Yes I was actually commanding the Hector Pieterse Unit which was operating inside South Africa.
MR KOOPEDI: What would your unit do?
MR BLOSE: We were mainly responsible for gathering intelligence on enemy targets, installation, personnel and apart from that we were also responsible for collecting military information, strategic military information and also some propaganda work was done by the unit.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now let's go to Mr Thomas Motobi the deceased in this matter. Did you know this person?
MR BLOSE: Well I knew the person because he was actually the bodyguard of the then ANC President, Oliver Tambo, at a certain stage.
MR KOOPEDI: At a certain stage. Now around 1987 do you know where this person was, Mr Motobi and what he was doing if you did know where he was?
MR BLOSE: Around 1987 he had actually defected from the movement. He was then operating inside South Africa working in cahoots with the security forces and therefore that was confirmed by our own investigation underground.
MR KOOPEDI: I've seen your application form or rather the statement you submitted to the Amnesty Committee, you referred to him as an askari?
MR BLOSE: Yes indeed he was.
MR KOOPEDI: Was he carrying out any activities to your knowledge, askari activities inside the country?
MR BLOSE: Yes in terms of our own investigation and our findings, the subject concerned was actually involved in so many activities. One would be that he was normally seen around the borders of South African border between Botswana and South Africa and I think his main role there was to identify MK members who were coming into the country and he was also very active inside South Africa around the Soweto area which made our work quite difficult in a sense that around that time many units which were operating in the country were either arrested or they were actually drawn into a situation whereby there could be crossfire with the police.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay you say in your application form, that is page 2, Chairperson, paragraph 9(a)i, you say that you gave an order that this person Motobi should be killed, Mr Thomas Motobi?
MR BLOSE: Yes I did.
MR KOOPEDI: And you also say you gave the order to Vuyani Mabekli?
MR BLOSE: Yes I did.
MR KOOPEDI: Was there any other person who was with you or did you give this order to any other person?
MR BLOSE: No, not at all. That was mainly to avoid the leakage of information and also to protect the operation so everything was compartmentalised.
MR KOOPEDI: So only you and Vuyani would have been involved in the killing of Thomas Motobi?
MR BLOSE: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay well can you briefly tell this Honourable Committee the precise terms of your order to Vuyani?
MR BLOSE: I received an order from my command which was at that stage based in the front line States, Botswana, that's where I reported on a regular basis on every activity that I was actually involved in the country. I got an order from my commander who is also late now, he passed away in 1991. I then, within the same token, gave an order to Vuyani Mabekli
to eliminate the subject, Mr Matobi, following the proof that we had, I mean that collected around his activities as an askari.
MR KOOPEDI: Now did you tell Vuyani how to kill Mr Matobi?
MR BLOSE: Not at all because at that stage we were armed, I mean we were fully trained and armed so I think it was quite logical that we're going to use firearms to eliminate.
MR KOOPEDI: Now when Mr Matobi was killed were you present?
MR BLOSE: No, no I was not present at that stage, I was outside the country. I only got a briefing as soon as I was inside the country.
MR KOOPEDI: By a briefing you mean you got a report that in fact this killing did take place?
MR BLOSE: Indeed.
MR KOOPEDI: Who gave you that briefing?
MR BLOSE: It's Mr Mabekli, Vuyani Mabekli.
MR KOOPEDI: Vuyani himself. Now from this killing or from the giving of the order that he should be killed, what would have been the political motive and the objective.
MR BLOSE: The objective, I think as the ANC at that stage were actually haunted by the security forces and I think our work was quite - I mean they made our work quite impossible to some degree. As a result we had to put in place some mechanisms of neutralising the enemy's activities against the movement.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now were you paid, did you receive anything financially or materially for having given this order?
MR BLOSE: No nothing, it was only a commitment, a political commitment.
MR KOOPEDI: Is there anything you have left out?
MR BLOSE: Not at all.
MR KOOPEDI: Now do you think that you have complied with the requirement of full disclosure, that is you have told this Honourable Committee all what is relevant in this matter?
CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it come from you in leading him whether he has complied with full disclosure, are you saying he must understand the legalities?
MR KOOPEDI: I know he does Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR BLOSE: Yes I think I have complied.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, that's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
JUDGE DE JAGER: And you're also confirming what you've said in this letter?
CHAIRPERSON: Would your commander where you'd received orders before you pass them onto Mabekli be Search?
MR BLOSE: Exactly Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Other than Search because I see it's in inverted commas, do you know his full names?
MR BLOSE: I think I know his surname, he was Mr Pasha, but I'm not sure about his first name.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any cross-examination?
MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I would adopt the same procedure, Mr Koopedi, that if there would be any re-examination afford the Panel to ask questions then you would wrap it up.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm happy with that, Chairperson, thanks.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you Chairperson.
JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: I suppose there wouldn't be any re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: No re-examination thanks Chairperson. I can say now that we're calling no other witness and that will be the case for the applicant, Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you feel like addressing us if there's anything?
MR KOOPEDI: Well the address will be brief, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Because we have accepted the application that it was properly lodged and that's why it was set out for today that we need not hear?
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: That's right Chairperson. My address will be very brief. Chairperson, the applicant before you here came before the Amnesty Committee on his own. He was never arrested or suspected of having had a hand in the killing of this person. I believe that by so doing he has nothing to hide and I also believe that from his evidence he has said that he has fully disclosed all the relevant factors in this matter. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it has also been his evidence that he did not receive any financial gain. It has also been part of his evidence that the deceased in this matter was seen as perhaps a stumbling block and towards the progress and the activities of the liberation movement being MK at that stage. I submit therefore that even though this applicant did not physically do the act and even though this applicant was not even in the country
when this person was killed, I submit that he is a proper applicant in that he should be granted amnesty in that he was involved in the planning and the giving of the order towards the execution of the deceased. And that's it, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Judge de Jager?
JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Thank you Mr Blose. The Committee reserves it's decision, it will be communicated to Mr Koopedi as soon as we have done so. Mr Mapoma, do we have anything on our roll today?
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, that ends the roll for today.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. We have come to the end of the hearings of today. We thank everybody for having come and we must express our gratitude towards the legal representatives towards the assistance they have given in this hearing in analysing the issues. It was very fruitful and we shall adjourn for the day and reconvene tomorrow at nine, did we say Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, that's the normal time.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We adjourn for the day.
HEARING ADJOURNS
