Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody. When we adjourned yesterday Mr Swanepoel indicated that he was to call a witness. Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The witness I want to call is Mrs Gertrude Mzizi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mrs Mzizi, your full names please.

GERTRUDE MAMA MZIZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if we could just wait for Mr Richard, he's got a problem with his hearing device. Thank you. Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Mrs Mzizi, is it correct that you are an active member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MRS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And what is your current position within the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MS MZIZI: I am an MEC in Gauteng Region.

ADV SIGODI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: An MEC in Gauteng Region?

MS MZIZI: I am a member of the Legislature in Gauteng.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, there appears to be some difficulty with the sound equipment.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, have you got it? Thanks.

MR SWANEPOEL: And during 1990, were you also an active member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: What was your position then?

MS MZIZI: I was a secretary in the Women's Organisation in Thokoza.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now you were staying in Thokoza at the time, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: At which address?

MS MZIZI: 2075 Mandisa Street.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now when did the violence, the political violence in Thokoza erupt to a serious degree?

MS MZIZI: It started in 1990, in August up until 1992 and violence was the order of the day.

MR SWANEPOEL: Could you tell the Committee what the position was in the township pertaining to the warring sides? Did they group themselves in particular areas and which were those areas?

MS MZIZI: It happened that in 1990 from August when ANC tried to collect the ANC members to a place called Penduka Section and people were scared to visit one another up until 1998. There was a demarcation line where they said a member of Inkatha cannot go over to the other side of Buthelezi Street. Both parties had divided themselves, the ANC on the other side and the IFP on the other side and people were not allowed to go to the other side of the opposing party.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright. Now is it correct that you moved during 1991?

MS MZIZI: I left my house 2075 Mandisa Street in 1990 on the 1st of December when the house was set alight. I went to stay at number 54 Khumalo Street at Mr Mahlahla's place. In May 1991 I bought a house, the next-door house, the house that used to be the house next to Mawetu, I stayed there.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now you say your old house was burned down, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: At your new house ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry was that burning down of the house due to a short circuit or was it due to any violent action?

MS MZIZI: It was attacked by the ANC members.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now at the new house that you moved to, what was the effect of the political violence on your new place of abode? Were you ever attacked there? Could you live there in safety? Could you tell the Committee what happened there?

MS MZIZI: I was always attacked there. It would happen in the morning. There would be people who would come passing, driving in a bakkie or a normal car and they would shoot fire directing to the house. Sometimes that would happen that people would be driving past in a car and they would throw the grenades in my house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now as a consequence of that, were you free to use your whole house, or did you avoid certain parts of it?

MS MZIZI: I could not use the lounge, I would only end up at the back rooms because the lounge and the other bedroom were facing the street and even the kitchen itself, I would make sure that I should be there only during the day when there were people around, then by 6 o'clock I should have finished everything and moved to the other bedroom that was at the back.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, are you married?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: To whom?

MR MZIZI: Abraham Mzizi.

MR SWANEPOEL: And would you say that during the period 1990 and 1991 your lives were under threat?

MS MZIZI: Yes, we were always phoned by people, we used to receive threats over the telephone and it was once attempted on my husband, he was shot but he escaped and they even attempted to kill me many times. I can't even count how many times that happened and the ANC members even tried to burn me, but I escaped, I survived.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Swanepoel. Did your husband, was he also an active member of the IFP? Did he hold any office within that organisation?

MS MZIZI: Yes, he was a member, he was also in the Executive of the constituency.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you know Sam Nduli when he was still alive?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I used to know him very well.

MR SWANEPOEL: How did you get to know him?

MS MZIZI: In 1990 February, he came to my house with Sokyle Kanyele and Dr Mkwanyana. They said to my husband he should go with them to the stadium to resign from the Black Local Authority. He left with them. He later came back with them. On one day he came with Dr Mkwanyana. He told my husband that there would be a meeting at the Roman Catholic Church where my husband was supposed to go there and join ANC and he told them that he was not going to join ANC and he said: "You've asked me to join from the Council and I did that but I have my own organisation, therefore I cannot join your organisation." It was during the week. On that weekend, on a Saturday in the afternoon, as a person who was playing golf, he left with his bag to play golf. Three young men came, one of them I can still remember it was Mahlemula. He was taken by force. They took him to the Roman Catholic Church where he was expected. I thought that he was not going to come back alive because I've seen things happening to other people but fortunately he came back and he told me that he had told those people that he is not in a position to join ANC because he had his own organisation. I asked him who were those people who were there. He said there was Caswell Kanyele, Sam and the others who were there, but Sam is the one who decided that they should let him go.

MR SWANEPOEL: Could I just interrupt you there Mrs Mzizi? What was the position of Mr Nduli during 1990 when you first met him?

MS MZIZI: He was a Chairperson of the Civic Association of Thokoza.

MR SWANEPOEL: And what position did your husband occupy at that stage?

MS MZIZI: He was just an IFP member, an active member. Just before that the IFP was Inkatha Cultural Movement.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did your husband occupy office in local government?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right. Now would I be correct then in surmising that you met Mr Nduli under the circumstances where he, as a member of the Civic Association, wanted your husband to resign from the local authority, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Why was that?

MS MZIZI: He said they were not in good terms with the local government of the time because he regarded it as the operators of the State, the apartheid regime.

MR SWANEPOEL: Were you, initially when you met him in 1990, were you on good terms with Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: I only got to know him then, I never knew him before, but he surprised me because they came to my house, they were a bit aggressive, but after that he came back with Dr Mkwanyana and he told my husband that he was coming to apologise. He was misinformed and he took that action and then my husband asked from whom was that misinformation coming and then he said there was no need to explain that but he heard that. He was asked by the Committee to be in the Council and then they said it won't be possible for him to fight the municipality outside, he would rather be inside because he'd be able to get all the information that he needed to fight the municipality. He then asked for the document from the Commission that was investigating about mal-administration of funds that was commissioned under Judge Skuyt, then he said he needed that information pertaining to that Commission and then he asked my husband to give him that document and I'm the one who was typing the information for my husband and then I gave him this information and I asked him to bring the copy and then he did so and then he guaranteed us, he said he was going to protect us. He was apologising with his whole heart.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now during the beginning of 1991, how would you then describe your relationship with Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: We were in good terms but he was also afraid to be seen with us, to such an extent that he would phone my husband who was still working at the 3 M, sometimes he would phone me from my home, he would give us tips and he would give us some advice that we should not attend certain meetings because it looked like it wouldn't be safe for us to be there.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did Mr Nduli ever warn you of impending attacks on your life?

MS MZIZI: Many times.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you have regular contact with Mr Nduli throughout 1991?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now Mr Nduli was killed on the 29th of September 1991, when did you see him the last time before his death?

MS MZIZI: He came to my house on a Saturday in the company of Eddie Sabie, it was during the day. He looked like someone who had a few drinks and I was not satisfied about this and he used to tell us that he was no longer a favourite in his organisation and he was told by the Phola Park residents that he was a Zulu informer and that surprised me because he came during the day on a Saturday with Sabie, whereas he had told me that the ANC youth is the one that had suspicions about him as a person who was referred to as an "impimpi" or informant. He suggested that we should have a meeting, a peace meeting, because people were dying every day in Thokoza. I told him that we are also for the idea. He asked for a cup of coffee. I gave him and I was not comfortable, because I wanted him to go immediately because he was not alone and it used to be a secret, his visits were a secret to our house and I asked him to go because I told him that my child was sick and then I had to take my child to the doctor and then he left the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, we know that Mr Nduli was killed on the 29th of September. You said you last saw him on a Saturday and you've described that meeting. When was that in relation to the 29th of September that you last saw him?

MS MZIZI: It was on the 28th of September, the day before.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you saw him on the 28th of September, did he tell you he came to discuss a peace meeting between the warring parties in Thokoza?

MS MZIZI: Yes, he told me so and he said he was going to Louis Sibeko to tell him that he should draft something that would be given to the other organisations in Thokoza but we did not have a lengthy conversation because I wanted him to leave as soon as possible because I was scared that he was not alone.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now Mr Chairperson I have with me a transcription of evidence given before the Commission on the Prevention of Public Violence and Intimidation held at Thokoza, or at Pretoria on the 6th of December 1991 and I would beg leave to hand it in as Exhibit D if it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection to that? What's it about, Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: I just want to - one Mr Louis Sibeko who was the General Secretary of the Thokoza Civic Association at the time when Mr Nduli was killed, gives evidence, a portion of which I would just like to hold out to Mrs Mzizi and ask her if that was the correct state of affairs or a correct reflection of the meeting on the 28th of September 1991, as Mr Sibeko said it was told to him by Mr Nduli.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection from anyone? Yes, alright.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now Mr Sibeko gave evidence in front of the Committee chaired by Adv Sithole ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just, which Commission was this?

MR SWANEPOEL: The Commission on the Prevention of Public Violence and Intimidation, Mr Chairperson and the particular Commission was held at Pretoria, it was the Thokoza sub-committee's sitting on the 6th of December 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR SWANEPOEL: Prevention of Public Violence and Intimidation.

CHAIRPERSON: 6th of September?

MR SWANEPOEL: 6th of December 1991, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence of Mr Sibeko?

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Louis Mbuyisene Sibeko, Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell us what his political affiliation was?

MR SWANEPOEL: I might be able to clear that up with evidence, if it pleases the Committee. Did you know Mr Louis Sibeko, Mrs Mzizi?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I know him.

MR SWANEPOEL: What was his political affiliation?

MS MZIZI: He was a secretary of the Civic Association and also an ANC member.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, the question put to Mr Sibeko at that hearing was

"Can you tell this Committee from where did you know Mr Sam Nduli and what exactly happened before he was killed?"

CHAIRPERSON: But, sorry, did you not say this was the 6th of September 1991?

ADV BOSMAN: December.

CHAIRPERSON: December? Sorry, I thought it was September.

MR SWANEPOEL: And his answer was

"We schooled together at primary level with Sam Nduli and we also work together in the Civic Association with Sam. On Saturday the 28th Sam came to my place. He said to me he was with IFP, one of the IFP leaders which is Mr Mzizi. He said he was happy because now he managed to talk to those people and they were talking about peace. He said to me: "Comrade, I want you to write some letters concerning the issue of peace"

and he made a rough sketch of now what he wanted me to do."

Would you say that is a correct summation of your meeting on the 28th with Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Swanepoel, if copies, if it could be arranged to have copies of that and that will be received as Exhibit D, I think it is.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairperson. Now the following day after that meeting, it is now known that Mr Nduli was killed, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: Yes that is correct. I had left in the morning for the IFP rally that was held in George Goch, when I came I heard the news. I was shocked and I could feel that I was no longer safe.

MR SWANEPOEL: Why do you say you felt you were no longer safe?

MS MZIZI: He was the main person who used to give us tips as to what to do and used to guide us and when he died it became clear to me that I was no longer safe.

MR SWANEPOEL: From your personal knowledge, do you know how it came about that he was killed?

MS MZIZI: I heard from the Goldstone Commission that August Xhosa saw a blue car trying to push him to the other side of the road and he was shot at and I asked myself a lot of question as to why and who has done this and why.

MR SWANEPOEL: But do you personally know anything about the murder of Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: I don't know anything.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now do you know where Mr Nduli was killed?

MS MZIZI: I heard that he was killed just after Ngaki Street in Thokoza as you go up the road, but just before Khumalo, corner Khumalo and Mabuya.

MR SWANEPOEL: And how would you describe that place? Was that a zone that IFP members would be able to enter or ...(intervention)

MS MZIZI: They wouldn't set their foot there on that particular zone.

CHAIRPERSON: What was it? Was it a neutral zone or was it an ANC dominated zone?

MS MZIZI: It was an ANC terrain.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, you were present with the last sitting of this Committee and you heard that Mr Zimu testified that he attended a meeting at your house where the murder of Mr Nduli was planned, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I was present.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, you also read the amnesty application of Mr Tsotsetse and yesterday he testified to the same effect that a day or so before Mr Nduli was killed, he attended a meeting at your house where the murder of Mr Nduli was discussed. What do you say to these allegations?

MS MZIZI: That is blue lies because Sam died in October or September, I cannot remember, while Themba Zimu was in prison. I don't know Themba. I first saw him at Palmridge. I know Themba's mother because his mother was a Chairperson of IFP within sub-committee and I was her secretary. She's a respectable woman and she used to tell us that she's got a problem, she had a son called Themba and he was a criminal and he was stealing the cars and he's a jailbird, therefore he was lying because I just saw Themba there for the very first time. The one called Thulani Mlaba, I'm surprised today here that he's Terrence Tsotsetse. When I first saw him it was in 1992, just before Christmas. He was driving a mini truck belonging to Mafulela and he nearly hit my child with this car and then I asked: "Who is this person who is driving recklessly?" where there were children playing. Samson told me that he didn't know him too, but he'd heard that the car that he was driving looked like Mafulela's car. We went to Mafulela and I asked Mafulela who was driving his car. Mafulela said to me Thulani, this boy was Thulani and he said he did not want him there because he ran away from Natalspruit and he killed a brother to his girlfriend and he went to hide in Thokoza and he had told the police to come and fetch him because he was a criminal, Thulani, that is. That was the very last time seeing this young boy. I sympathise, I felt pity for them because they were victims of ignorance, they are just people who are desperate who want to get out of jail because this information here, was written by Sally Sealy, a white woman who was well-known in Thokoza. She was with ANC members. When we saw them in the township we would know that they are going to damage some roads and they were going to burn some houses and even this George Ndolosi was also an active SDU member and I think they were using this TRC, using these two boys and they had to say anything about IFP members, we had a squabble, we had quarrelled with Sally Sealy and one of them went to prison and I know that he told Thulani to implicate myself and my husband and the IFP members, and I feel pity for them because if you are talking about liberty or freedom, there are people who are using the other people because they are ignorant. I don't know these people, they were never in my house for a meeting.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you ever attend a meeting anywhere where the murder of Mr Sam Nduli was discussed or planned?

MS MZIZI: No, not at all.

MR SWANEPOEL: Please bear with me for a moment Mr Chairman. I have no further questions Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Swanepoel. Ms van der Westhuizen do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mrs Mzizi, the Ngema Section in Natalspruit, during 1992/93 what sort of political area was that? Would you have regarded that as ANC or IFP stronghold?

MS MZIZI: It was an ANC stronghold.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And during 1992/93, was there already violence or conflict between ANC members and IFP members?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you mentioned that during that period numerous attacks took place, do you yourself know about attacks on hostels in Thokoza?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I know about those attacks.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And were people actually killed in the process?

MS MZIZI: Yes, many people died.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, can you just tell this Committee, the Indunas who were in the hostel, were they regarded as leaders by hostel residents?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct. They were regarded as leaders.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now if an Induna or an Induna in the hostel during those days, would he also be regarded as an IFP supporter?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And what was an Induna's authority over the people inside the hostel? Would they follow orders?

MS MZIZI: They were leaders who would give the hostel dwellers guidelines and they were highly respected.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the house that you moved to in Khumalo Street, is it correct that that was opposite the entrance of one of the Thokoza hostels?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chamane mentioned a certain Induna by the name of Mkhondo, is he known to you or was he known to you at that time?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I know he has been there for a long time.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was he also regarded as a leader in the hostel?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now during those violent years, did the IFP members or hostel residents, did they form self-protection units that you know of?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: These self-protection units, were they - can you say what their structures, what it looked like or was it more an informal type of self-defence unit?

MS MZIZI: I never heard anything about the structure or the leader or what. I used to see just groups of people and see young men living with Mkhondo and the others would be with Mkhize. As a woman, Zulus do not discuss anything with women, therefore I never had any idea of what was going on with the SPUs.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now Mr Nicholas Chamane, an applicant before this Committee, do you know him from that time and if so can you just describe how did you meet him and what was his position in the IFP?

MS MZIZI: I know as we were attacked by ANC members. The IFP members, we were occupying a small space and we used to know one another and he is a boy who would be seen during the rallies wearing an IFP T-shirt.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you know if he was a member of the SDUs?

MS MZIZI: I believe that he was because I heard that Mkhondo was one of the people who were the Commanders, but he had some position in the SDUs. I used to see him in the company of Mkhondo and the others.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now have you heard about attacks on Bishop Khumalo's house during those years?

MS MZIZI: I heard that he would be attacked all the time.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now do you know whether he was protected or whether people guarded him at all?

MS MZIZI: I used to hear people talking about that and there would be soldiers sometimes that would be in his premises or they would patrol the place and even the policemen were also seen in the vicinity or Mkhondo and Mkhize would send some SPUs to go and check around his house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mrs Mzizi and the general mood of people living in Thokoza in that area pertaining to the violence and attacks, what was the general mood? Were people violent towards each other? Would attacks be planned? How did that happen?

MS MZIZI: People from where I was staying in Penduka Section, they were hurting because they were the people who would be attacked all the time. They were dissatisfied about what was happening.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now would they also go and counter-attack the ANC people?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And these attacks that you know of, were they planned or were they just random attacks?

MS MZIZI: I do not know because I was not in those meetings, but from what I had seen with my own eyes, I would just see people gathering and they would go to the other side, Natalspruit and I didn't think it was something that was pre-planned, everything would depend on people or the situation, what situation was prevailing.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Mr Padi, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR PADI: Yes, a very few questions Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Mrs Mzizi, can I get a point of clarity here? You indicated that you had regular contact with Mr Nduli and so far you only mentioned the first initial contact in which you wanted to see your husband and the third occasion was the one prior, or the date preceding his death. Can you merely give us an indication of any other contacts that you had with him and briefly the basis of what was the contacts about?

CHAIRPERSON: But I think you've already told us Mrs Mzizi that you had telephonic contact, I don't think you have to repeat what you've already told us. I think Mr Padi wants to know if there's anything else that you haven't told us, what other contacts?

MR PADI: The impression that I got was that other than the telephone contacts, there were some physical contacts that emanated from her evidence in chief, but I won't take it any further on that, if that's okay with you Mr Chairman.

MS MZIZI: I did not say that we once had a physical contact, I said we would talk telephonically because he was also afraid to be seen with me and it happened that the very first time when he came to my house during the day and I was shocked because he was not alone.

MR PADI: Mrs Mzizi, you gave evidence that at some stage Mr Nduli came and forcefully took your husband to a church in an attempt to force him to join the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and also prior to that he came with Dr Mkwanyana and they asked him to attend the meeting and then when he didn't attend, they came again I think.

MR PADI: From that encounter, Mrs Mzizi, is it possible that that could have fuelled anger in the members of the IFP? Would you have any knowledge of such emotion being aroused by the action of Mr Nduli towards your husband?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is possible.

MR PADI: And could it be possible that could have been one of the things that might have driven the members of the IFP to kill Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: No, that is not a possibility because let me remind you of this and please listen carefully, Mr Nduli came after that event, it was in 1990, March 1990, he came to apologise and he asked to be a friend to us.

MR PADI: And you gave evidence that as your husband is a Zulu person, they wouldn't include women in some of the affairs, could it be possible that you were excluded in the affairs that related to the killing of Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: I never said that my husband as a Zulu excluded me in some discussions. I said the Zulu nation generally, yes my husband is a Zulu person, but I never said that was my husband and my husband did not have time to discuss about people's deaths. Please repeat your questions because I cannot understand it.

MR PADI: Could it be possible that you were excluded in the discussion of the killing of Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: By who?

MR PADI: By the members of the IFP. You gave evidence that the Zulus, now you just corrected me that you did not say your husband, but you gave evidence that the Zulus would not include women in some of their affairs and it is common cause that the IFP is a predominantly Zulu organisation. Now my question is, could it be possible that you were not included in the discussion of the killing of Mr Nduli?

MS MZIZI: If there was any discussion about the killing of the person, I wouldn't be included in that kind of a discussion.

MR PADI: Mrs Mzizi, I put it to you that you were involved in the planning of the killing of Mr Nduli. This took place at your home. What do you have to say to that?

MS MZIZI: I am saying no, that is not true. You were there in Palmridge and you heard that the house that a meeting was held in, I was not staying there and the person who was saying that was Themba Zimu, that is not true.

MR PADI: I have no further questions, Mr Chair, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Padi. Mr Richard, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson, I do.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mrs Mzizi, I start with asking you this question. You say you were a typist, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: A secretary.

MR RICHARD: A secretary.

MS MZIZI: Yes, for the IFP Men's Brigade.

MR RICHARD: And can you type.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, let's just clear this up. When you say a secretary, do you mean you were a secretary of the organisation, in other words in charge of the administration or were you a typist?

MS MZIZI: I had a typewriter and I was typing everything according to my husband's needs, whether it was for golf purposes or church or IFP issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. So that meant that you had privy to most of the things that your husband was doing?

MS MZIZI: ...(no translation)

MR RICHARD: From what you typed you got to know most of the things that your husband was doing?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now that means that you were familiar with his activities.

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: What were his activities in the IFP?

MS MZIZI: He was not that much in the IFP, he was just a member. All he used to do most of his time was play golf, beside that he was employed full-time from Monday to Friday and Saturday morning. He would go and work at Lipschitz attorneys. On Sunday he would go and play golf.

MR RICHARD: Would you know what his connection with Mr Mafulela was?

MS MZIZI: He had no connection with Mr Mafulela, he used to know him, simply just like that.

MR RICHARD: And did the Rev Khumalo ever visit your house?

MS MZIZI: ... (no translation).

MR RICHARD: Did Bishop, or Reverend or Mr Mbhekiseni Khumalo ever visit your house?

MS MZIZI: Yes, he once paid us a visit.

MR RICHARD: Was it only once or was it more than once?

MS MZIZI: I remember he came two times in one week.

MR RICHARD: And how many times did he come on other weeks?

MS MZIZI: No, he came on that particular day visiting me because he wanted me to phone the soldiers because his wife was killed and they were afraid to go and bury her without company of soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he live close to you Mrs Mzizi, when you were living in Khumalo Street, when you moved from your burned house, did Bishop or Archbishop Khumalo live close to you?

MS MZIZI: No, he was staying far away. It was quite a distance.

MR RICHARD: But I put it to you that you knew that he was a member of the IFP, that Bishop Khumalo was a member of the IFP, did you know that?

MS MZIZI: I knew that he was an IFP supporter.

MR RICHARD: Now what did you know about the Khumalo Gang, if anything?

MS MZIZI: I know nothing. I first heard about the Khumalo Gang in January 1993 because my house was on the main road and I saw the men marching with pamphlets saying that Khumalo Gang killed their children. That was the very first time that I heard about this Khumalo Gang.

MR RICHARD: Did you believe the pamphlets?

MS MZIZI: I did not believe that because there were so many rumours in the township that would depend on a particular person. Today people would say this and the other day they would say something else.

MR RICHARD: Now within the Thokoza environment at the time, is it not true that there was intimidation?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is true. All of us we were intimidated.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say all of us, you mean everyone in the Thokoza area was intimidated in one way or the other.

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: So it follows that the IFP intimidated people to belong to the IFP and the ANC intimidated people to belong to the ANC?

MS MZIZI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. And it was so serious in fact that there had to be a commission on intimidation and repression that period, is that not correct?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And indeed in the process leading up to 1994 it became difficult for anyone to exercise their democratic right to belong to whichever party they felt like, is that not correct as well?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, and it's correct that whether it was the ANC or the IFP, both indulged in the same tactic?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now we've used the word self-defence unit. Now to whom did self-defence units belong?

MS MZIZI: The SDUs belonged to the ANC and SPU belonged to IFP.

MR RICHARD: Now from your knowledge at the time, how would a young man end up as a member of either an SDU or an SPU?

MS MZIZI: I think all of them were forced by the situation because people from both sides wanted to be protected or retaliate because people were dying from both sides. Some people would volunteer themselves, others would be recruited, that's what I believe.

MR RICHARD: To use the English expression they would be press-ganged into the unit in their area whether it be an SDU or an SPU.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of the members. Some would be voluntary some would be shanghaied or press-ganged into it.

MS MZIZI: If there were people who were put there without their willingness, I cannot say anything, but a person would know that if that person is an ANC member, it was obvious that he would be only safe in the ANC territory and then the IFP member would be safe in the IFP territory.

MR RICHARD: Now when it comes to the three applicants' membership of the IFP, do you dispute it?

MR MZIZI: Well, I'd like for you to be more specific. There are some other things that I dispute but as for the meetings, that the meetings would be held at our place, that is in dispute, but being more specific, that will help.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Richard is asking is do you dispute their membership? Mr Tsotsetse, that's Thulani, Mr Zimu and Mr Chamane, have said that they were members of the IFP? Do you dispute that evidence of theirs?

MS MZIZI: No, I can't dispute that.

MR RICHARD: Do you dispute that they had contact with the Indunas and the other figures of authority of the IFP in the area?

MS MZIZI: Well, as for the Indunas, I will not still dispute it, but they will have some contacts with some other leaders, not the entire leadership.

MR RICHARD: Do you dispute that the Bishop Khumalo may well have asked them to protect his house through the Indunas, or whichever other way he went round it?

MS MZIZI: Well, I can't dispute that as well, because I don't know their connection or their contacts, their connections so to speak, with the Bishop.

MR RICHARD: In other words, you're not in a position to dispute that the Bishop Khumalo gave them an instruction to attack the Ngema Tavern?

MS MZIZI: Well, it gets to be a bit difficult for me because Khumalo's place was quite a distance from mine, so that from my house, I will not know exactly what will be going on there, so I can't commit myself and state beyond reasonable doubt that this happened or this did not happen, so I'm not in a position to comment as well.

MR RICHARD: So that means you're not in a position to say that they that they are incorrect when they say that they were told to attack what they perceived to be an ANC target?

S MZIZI: Well I don't know, it's very difficult. You see you put me in a very difficult position here, because I would not say for sure that this happened or not.

MR RICHARD: I'm not saying whether you know whether it happened or not, I'm saying that you're not in a position to make any comment at all.

MS MZIZI: Well about Thulani and Themba Zimu, they've already told a blatant lie in this Commission so that it is a bit difficult for me to take any evidence that they have tendered to this Commission. In other words we can't place credibility to these two, so it's a bit difficult for me to concur with their evidence.

MR RICHARD: I think that's a matter of argument, but we move to a further point. You made mention of a person Sally Sealy, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: What are you saying about Sally, I don't hear you.

MR RICHARD: You made mention of her name.

MS MZIZI: Yes, I did make mention of her name.

MR RICHARD: Now, from my notes I found it difficult to understand what you were saying. I gained the impression, please correct me if I'm wrong, that you essentially accused her of inciting the applicants to make false amnesty applications and implicate you and your husband, is that what you're trying to say?

MS SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, I note that Mrs Mzizi has in front of her a document, that is the background information that appears from page 1 of the bundle, and she's going to refer to it. Just for reference purposes.

MR RICHARD: The answer is a yes or no, it's not a referral to a document. Is that what you are saying, yes or no? My next question will be why do you say it?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I still accuse the person.

MR RICHARD: I believe it's necessary to point out that Sally Sealy becomes an implicated person and needs to have copies of what's ...

CHAIRPERSON: Implicated in - relating to the incidents, the Ngema Tavern or the killing of people in taxis, or what?

MR RICHARD: No, implicated in these proceedings ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but not as an implicated person, not envisaged by the Act.

MR RICHARD: Not in the text of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I mean she wouldn't have to receive notice.

MR RICHARD: But I think it would be incumbent to give her copies of the transcript, this section of the evidence, to hear what she has to say, or I could call her later. I believe that's ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I haven't come across a matter like this before, you know a situation like this before where a person has been implicated but not as envisaged by the Act. I don't think there'd be any harm in any transcript to be made available personally.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Now what is the IFP's general policy and attitude to applications for amnesty?

MS MZIZI: Is that all people should come forward and tell the truth so they may be granted amnesty.

MR RICHARD: Is that the IFP's policy?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that's right.

MR RICHARD: And you as a public office bearer, an MEC member, support that anyone who has a truth to tell, should come forward and tell it fearlessly and with confidence, irrespective of who might be implicated or not be implicated?

MS MZIZI: Well yes, I told myself that I will come and present myself to this Commission to tell the truth and I would like to highlight this one thing to you that this is the very Committee where my name was ridiculed and I still want to appear in front of it and to tell the truth as it is.

MR RICHARD: Now my last question, or line of questions is a reference to the phenomena pre 1994 of the war between the SDUs and the SPUs, the ANC, the IFP. What is your position on that phenomena now? Do you regret it or do you excuse it, or justify it?

CHAIRPERSON: I couldn't quite understand the question.

MR RICHARD: Let me rephrase it, Chairperson. We've now gathered that for some people the choice as to whether they would be an IFP or an ANC or whatever other supporter was extremely limited, for some people, not all people. Do you agree that that was undemocratic?

MS MZIZI: Well yes, that is not democracy to coerce or force people to make a choice.

MR RICHARD: And you also agree that in the future whatever needs to be done to prevent that phenomena must be done, of coercion, intimidation, repression?

MS MZIZI: Even from the onset it was not necessary at all that people must be coerces and it is my wish and desire that this thing may not repeat itself in the future. I am a bit disturbed for the fact that I have appeared in front of this Commission. We want peace as the community of that area and I had to come here and defend my name, on top of that, this is not - I find that disturbing.

MR RICHARD: We've talked of things relative to the past, I'm talking about reconciliation and the future and I believe I have taken the point as far as I need, but to recap it, that what happened then in the past is repugnant to democracy and has to be stopped at all costs.

MS MZIZI: I reiterate the fact that it is my wish and desire that we canvass peace in the area and I'm one of the people who supports the President Mbeki and the IFP officials to mobilize peace in the are of Thokoza and I wish it will be so in the future that we observe and realise peace in the area.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Motloung, any questions that you'd like to put to the witness?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, I do, thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLOUNG: Mrs Mzizi, I just want to understand this one aspect, if you may make me understand it. I've always been under the impression that your husband is a very eloquent man and I know that he could easily come and testify before this Commission or before this Committee. Why you and not him?

MS MZIZI: Well it is his choice. We live our lives separate and differently. I'm an individual like him, I cannot explain to you because I don't owe an explanation to you and I'm not even coerced to come here and testify. Now I'm saying I know the law. I could have sat down and not even appear to render the testimony that I have just done, I would have well waited for the end of the TRC and the Attorney-General takes his step and see if it is necessary that I may be prosecuted or the other people that are implicated here but because I feel harassed and I feel bothered and obliged because I have been a victim of the process, this is why I came here. Even the community of Thokoza where I come from, I know they have been severely harassed emotionally as well. It is not by anybody's doing that I'm here, but I took it on my own volition to come and appear here. The two here, Thulani and Terrence, whatever their names, they have told a lie here and I'm not going to force my husband to come and appear in this Commission. It is up to him, it's his choice to make.

MR MOTLOUNG: No, that I accept fully. You know the only reason why I'm asking you this question is that from your evidence it seems that if people's deaths or murder is to be planned or was to be planned within the circles of the IFP, apparently you would have no place to feature, at least he would have a place to feature. It would be men who would discuss such matters, is that impression correct?

MS MZIZI: Well, please repeat your - what were you saying?

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. I've understood your long-winded answer about why you testify and not him, but I'm saying to you the reason why I asked you this question is not because of any malice, I'm simply saying that from your evidence I'm getting the impression that if there was to be any meeting where murders are to be planned, for example to murder Sam Nduli, you as a woman would not be involved in that kind of meeting. At least if he wanted he would be allowed to be in that type of meeting. Is that not so?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTLOUNG: Do you know if your husband then knows anything about any of these murders including that of Sam Nduli? I would assume your answer would be that you don't know.

MS MZIZI: He does not know.

MR MOTLOUNG: How do you know that?

MS MZIZI: He does not know because he was not a person who was always in the location. I did explain earlier on that my husband, his routine is as the following: he will leave at 5 in the morning, come back at 7 at night, working for 3 M South Africa until Friday. On Saturday Morning he would go to Leon Lipschitz, those were the attorneys he used to work for, so that in the afternoon if there is no family activity, he will go and play golf and also he was an organiser of so many tournaments he did not have time for such things.

MR MOTLOUNG: And I have somewhat confused notes here. I'm not sure if its my own confusion, or whether the confusion results from the evidence. Did you say your husband was in the Executive of the constituency?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTLOUNG: And by the Executive of the constituency you mean the Executive of the IFP?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: And you remember that at some point you said he was not that much active in the IFP, did you say that?

MS MZIZI: The fact that he was in that position does not necessarily suggest that he must be active. You see, because of - the meeting would only be held once a month according to the policy of the IFP.

MR MOTLOUNG: What do you understand by being active?

MS MZIZI: Well I was thinking that you were referring to the fact that a person of his calibre would be attending rallies and doing so many things so actively, but that was not necessarily so with my husband.

MR MOTLOUNG: And talking about the SPUs, is it your evidence that you don't know really about these SPUs? You don't know about the structures, how it's constituted or founded, you don't know anything about its leaders, you don't really know about these SPUs. Is that your evidence?

MS MZIZI: No you see it's evident that you are confused. I did not say that, but I said I don't know their structures and their command structures, I don't have such details but I knew about the existence of SDUs. There was one man, Mkhize and Mkhondo, they had their own group of youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motloung, on this question of the SPUs and SDUs, it seems that this has just recently been mentioned in these hearings, they haven't really been central at all, in fact I think Mr Tsotsetse said that he's got no idea about them at all. It's just come up in the evidence of Mrs Mzizi now. I don't think up to now we've really been involved in the actions of the applicants being part of SPU, or against SDUs and that sort of thing. It has just been raised now.

MR MOTLOUNG: Mr Chairman, I perfectly understand the point you're driving at but I wish I could limit myself to some of the more relevant issues. Unfortunately some of these ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not criticising your question, I mean it was raised, but I'm just saying it's a new phenomena in these hearings, the SPUs and SDUs, just raised by Ms van der Westhuizen in cross-examination of Mrs Mzizi, first time. Mention was made of them by Mr Richard in cross-examination but nothing came of it. Mr Tsotsetse said he had no idea about it, so I don't know if there's going to be any allegation, not allegation, or submission about SPUs, or SDUs, we don't know who Commanders were, this and that, etc.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Honourable Chair, if I may, it was just that Mr Chamane also testified that he was a member of the SPU and it went as far as that, not much further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tsotsetse had no idea about them. Yes, carry on.

MR MOTLOUNG: Mrs Mzizi, you see why I'm asking you this, I would assume that as, did you say the General Secretary or the Secretary of the IFP Women's Brigade, what was your position?

CHAIRPERSON: It's the secretary of the Women's Movement, I think it was, as translated.

MR MOTLOUNG: Is that the IFP Women's Brigade?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: I would assume that - in fact that is the most key position at the constituency level, is that not so?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: Are you then suggesting that despite that position that you held, you did not receive any information from your constituency or your party about the formation of the SPUs, how they were going to be constituted and so on?

MS MZIZI: Well from us women, we would obviously not be told about such structures and things.

MR MOTLOUNG: And just to step off that point. I put it to you Mrs Mzizi, that you are obviously pleading ignorance on the SPUs because in your mind they are the people who committed some of the worst atrocities, so as far as you're concerned, you want to distance yourself from them as far as possible.

MS MZIZI: If it was so, like you're putting it, you are telling me, you are putting it to me and if that is so, I would have even disputed every single thing about SPU and refute everything that is related to SPU and about the two leaders, Mkhize, I know them, together with Zwile, I will see him in Mkhondo’s group.

MR MOTLOUNG: And talking about yourself, look, Sam Nduli came there with these people that you mentioned, amongst them Dr Mkwanyana, they forced your husband to go away with, sounds like a kidnap and there he was then made to resign from the Council. He lost income by resigning from the office within the Council, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: That was just a meaningless income, Sir.

MR MOTLOUNG: Was it income, nevertheless.

MS MZIZI: It was not an income as such, but it's an income that he will get per meeting. Let me bring you to light, Sir, my husband was requested by the community that he must campaign to be selected, or to be elected into office of the Council.

MR MOTLOUNG: Now, was it your understanding that as far as the ANC people are concerned, Sam Nduli is in charge? If you people get attacked, he should know about this.

MS MZIZI: He phoned us and he told us about it. I was supposed to take what he was saying because there was more evidence to all the things that he was talking about.

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes I know. I'm talking about your subjective view. Was it your understanding that Sam Nduli was actually in charge of the things that were happening in Thokoza as far as the ANC constituency was concerned?

MS MZIZI: He was not the only person in charge.

MR MOTLOUNG: But he was a prominent leader of the ANC in that area?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOTLOUNG: And you say that the guarantee that he was going to protect you, but despite this guarantee, the attacks just continued?

MS MZIZI: Yes, because he came to us that he was no longer a favourite in his organisation. It was very difficult for him to protect us.

MR MOTLOUNG: And talking about Sam Nduli, you know I don't think it escapes anybody's mind who was listening to your testimony that you were deliberately trying to create a picture that they should believe what you believe. It seems that Sam Nduli was killed by his own people within the ANC, not IFP people, is that the impression?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I believe so. I came here knowing very well that this Amnesty Committee is not a court of law. I have that belief solely because I have documents that I can give you from the Goldstone Commission where the eye witness saw everything. He was sent away. He was never allowed to go and talk to the police. That August Xhosa only spoke to police when he was arrested when firearms were found in a house in Soweto. There are those details in the Goldstone Commission documents. I want to know who was being protected and what is it that was a secret because a person from Mozambique, it was known that that particular person can be apprehended any time, because he was an immigrant. I did not come here telling myself that I'm coming to the criminal court because I would be able to use all technicalities. I came here because I understood more about this, but if you want that information, I can give it to you.

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. Now tell me, during those days the situation seems to have been very tense. Did you move around a lot, move out of Thokoza yourself?

MS MZIZI: I could go somewhere and come back. I wouldn't move around in Thokoza. I would only move in my section only.

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. George Goch, do you mean George Goch Hostel?

MS MZIZI: I would go there in the rallies. We were using the stadium, not the hostel, but George Goch stadium.

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. Now you know it strikes my mind that somehow on the day of the killing of Sam Nduli, according to your evidence you were never in Thokoza. Is that what you're saying?

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct because the planning of rallies wouldn't be planned in the evening, they would be discussed in a formal way and I was in George Goch attending an IFP rally.

MR MOTLOUNG: I take it you were with Mr Mzizi there? Were you with Mr Mzizi there?

MS MZIZI: No, I had mentioned that Mr Mzizi had left very early in the morning to a tournament, golf tournament that he had organised with Council.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motloung, if you could just assist us. Where's George Goch in relation to Thokoza?

MR MOTLOUNG: I think George Goch is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, in Johannesburg?

MR MOTLOUNG: In Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Part of Johannesburg, so some distance away from Thokoza?

MR RICHARD: George Goch hostel is just off the End Street off-ramp.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOTLOUNG: Now that last meeting that you say you had with Sam Nduli the day before his death, did you discuss much with Sam Nduli?

MS MZIZI: No.

MR MOTLOUNG: Did you talk about any peace plans?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: What did you discuss?

MS MZIZI: He said that we were supposed to convene a peace meeting. He was going to talk to Louis about it, so that Louis can draft some things about different organisations and I supported that idea because it was very difficult for people to visit one another.

ADV BOSMAN: Is Louis Mr Sibeko?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: And these visits of the late Mr Sam Nduli, why did you view them as a secret, you yourself?

M MZIZI: He had told me that he was not supposed to be seen in my premises, or to be seen talking to me, that is what shocked me when he came to my house during the day and in the company of Eddie Sabie, that never happened before.

MR MOTLOUNG: And for me it says that if he had any fears of being seen at your place, they seemed to have dissipated because there he comes during the day and worse still, he comes in the company of this Eddie and you seem to be more concerned about the fact that he has to get away. You were not ...(indistinct) why?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I was very concerned because I was told by him that he was attacked in Phola Park, he was referred to as a Zulu informant, therefore I was asking myself what was happening, but I did notice that he had a few drinks and I was not very satisfied about this and plus the fact that he was in the company of this aggressive youth and I tried by all means to send him away because I was scared that perhaps he would mention something that would land me in trouble.

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. Talking about the two applicants, Mr Thulani Tsotsetse and Mr Zimu, I assume that you did not know them before this Commission, or what?

MS MZIZI: Themba I first saw him with my naked eye, but I saw Thulani driving a mini-truck, the one that nearly hit my child.

CHAIRPERSON: In January 1993, was it, that you saw him? She gave a full description of when she first saw Mr Tsotsetse driving this car that nearly hit her child.

MR MOTLOUNG: Let me tell you something. At my age I find it difficult to understand exactly how you saw Mr Tsotsetse on that day that he nearly hit your son. You say he was driving fast?

MS MZIZI: Yes, he was driving very fast.

MR MOTLOUNG: How did you manage ...

MS MZIZI: He stopped. I went out to take my child and I asked him if he was aware that he nearly hit my child. He couldn't respond because he was drunk. Mkhize came and he asked him the same question. Then I asked Samson who was this but Samson said this car was Mafulela's car and we went to Mafulela in the hostel. After that I saw him just for a few days.

MR MOTLOUNG: This Samson that you're talking about, was he there when this incident took place?

MS MZIZI: ...(not translated)

MR MOTLOUNG: Samson.

MS MZIZI: Yes, Samson was standing at some distance with the other people at the hostel. It's Samson who came to the other side.

MR MOTLOUNG: You yourself know Mafulela?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: Were you close to him?

MS MZIZI: Not close, but it was just an ordinary person that I used to know.

MR MOTLOUNG: But he was very active in the IFP wasn't he?

MS MZIZI: No, he was never active. Perhaps this term active, I do not understand it. I only know him as an IFP member, if there were rallies and other things, as a person who had taxis, he would provide his taxis for transport.

MR MOTLOUNG: And now talking about the applicant, the three applicants, I get this feeling that as far as Mr Chamane is concerned, relations are fine between you and him, but the other two, you seem to not like them, is that correct?

MS MZIZI: It's not that I dislike them, I hate their action because they are lying. This Thulani I see him as a criminal who ran away from his place to the other side of Thokoza and disrupted people there. Themba is just a part, a thief was stealing the cars and he wants to get out of jail and try and implicate anyone. Zwile, I know Zwile and he was talking about things that he did and the people that he was with when they committed those actions. I know he was a Youth Member of Inkatha, but these two, I don't even know them.

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. And as far as Zwile is concerned, do you know how did it come about that he found himself with the other two applicants killing people at Ngema?

MS MZIZI: No, I do not know. I heard him as he was explaining in Palmridge. I was there listening and Zwile, like the other IFP members, my job is to go and visit the IFP members in prison, people that I know them and I used to go there. I did go there and explain the amnesty process and even with the lawyers, I did go there. I found Zwile in Pretoria prison, he was all alone.

MR MOTLOUNG: Did you visit all three of them?

MS MZIZI: No, I only visited Zwile in Pretoria and the others who were also in Pretoria, but they're irrelevant, they do not feature in this hearing, because I was working in Pretoria with prisoners in Modabi and Boksburg and the other jails like Sonder Water.

MR MOTLOUNG: But did you see the other two applicants except Zwile?

MS MZIZI: ...(not translated)

MR MOTLOUNG: Did you see them when you visited the prison?

MS MZIZI: No I never paid them a visit.

MR MOTLOUNG: Okay. Now talking about the counter attacks that you said these people would go on counter attacks, did you see some of these counter attacks?

MS MZIZI: No, but I know that such things happened.

MR MOTLOUNG: How did you know about that?

MS MZIZI: I would see people gathering and they would later go to Natalspruit, or they would take another direction.

MR MOTLOUNG: Another direction is not a counter attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you denying that there were counter attacks, Mr Motloung? What is the reason for this?

MR MOTLOUNG: Mr Chairman, I'm not denying that, I'm simply trying to find out from her as to what is it that she knows about these counter attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, you can carry on.

MR MOTLOUNG: Mrs Mzizi, when people take the direction towards Natalspruit, do you regard that as a counter attack?

MS MZIZI: Yes because that was a no-go area but I also, if I see someone from the other side coming this other side, I knew what was going to happen. That was a no-go area. People were not supposed to cross the borders.

MR MOTLOUNG: Because Miss Mzizi.

MS MZIZI: Mrs not Miss.

MR MOTLOUNG: Did I say Miss?

MS MZIZI: Yes.

MR MOTLOUNG: Thank you for the correction. Mrs Mzizi, I put it to you that these two applicants Tsotsetse and Zimu, you know them very well. You were part of a meeting at your house to plan a killing of Mr Sam Nduli.

MS MZIZI: I disagree with that. That is your opinion about what happened. I'm telling you that is not true.

MR MOTLOUNG: And finally, ...(intervention)

BACKGROUND NOISE

CHAIRPERSON: Please be quiet.

MR MOTLOUNG: And finally I put it to you that having listened to your evidence, really I don't know what you came here to tell us, that you don't know anything, but I put it to you that you're trying to play ignorance. You have this central position within the IFP Women's Brigade, you could not have been ignorant, you should have known a lot. That's all.

MS MZIZI: That depends on the meaning of ignorance. I was never ignorant. I never come here and come and please you and say what you are expecting me to say.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLOUNG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motloung. Do you have any questions, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Ma'am from what you have told us, it would seem that you are a victim of the cross-violations of human rights in our country's past.

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not testify to the TRC as a victim?

MS MZIZI: I was not in a position to do that because I regarded that platform as the platform that is used by the people who are my enemies like Joyce Roget, Sally Sealy and the others. I did not see it as a suitable opportunity for me and I realised that by me going up there and cry in front of the Commission, was not going to benefit me anything because all we needed was peace in Thokoza.

MR MAPOMA: So I suppose you have got problems with the TRC? You are not comfortable with the TRC?

MS MZIZI: Yes, I do have a problem because of some other people's calibre, not all of them.

MR MAPOMA: And I suppose ...(intervention)

MS MZIZI: And I see myself as the victim of this Committee, that is why in this very same hearing it was reported, the report that was recorded and before it was my chore and I am the one who wrote to the Truth Commission and I asked them why they can't call me as I was implicated during the Section 29. I see myself as a victim of the very same Committee because of some individuals.

MR MAPOMA: And I suppose you come here to testify purely because you are implicated, not that you are ...

MS MZIZI: Yes, that is true.

MR MAPOMA: Induna Mkhondo, you have said you know him, what are his full names?

MS MZIZI: ...(not translated)

MR MAPOMA: What are his full names, Induna Mkhondo?

MS MZIZI: I used to hear people calling him Babusabelo but they used to call him with his surname Mkhondo.

MR MAPOMA: Is he alive?

MS MZIZI: No.

MR MAPOMA: When did he die?

MS MZIZI: I think it was towards the end of 1993.

MR MAPOMA: And Mafulela?

MS MZIZI: Mafulela is alive.

MR MAPOMA: And his full names are Albert.

MS MZIZI: I know him as Mafulela Albert Mlaba.

MR MAPOMA: Where does he reside?

MS MZIZI: In Thokoza, Mazibuku Street or in the hostel, D Section.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Swanepoel, do you have any re-examination?

MR SWANEPOEL: No re-examination Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mrs Mzizi?

ADV SIGODI: Just one question, Chairperson. Tell me, did you know Sam Nduli's girlfriend?

MS MZIZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: Because I see that her name is Gugu Mzizi.

MS MZIZI: Yes, I know Gugu, she's my niece.

ADV SIGODI: So why I'm asking you this is because from our investigation report is that she was going to be used as a trap whereby Nicholas would phone Gugu, Nicholas Chamane would phone Gugu and tell her that Nduli's father is sick and Sam must rush home and they would then ambush him in Mabuya Street and shoot him in Khumalo Street. So if you say she is your niece, how is she related to you?

MS MZIZI: My husband's cousin is the father, Samuel Mzizi is the father of Gugu.

ADV SIGODI: And what also bothers me is the fact that she was killed because she knew too much about Sam Nduli's death.

MS MZIZI: Yes, she died shortly before the elections in 1994. The reason for her death, we also had a problem to bury here because she was dying on the ANC strongholds in the other house that belonged to her mother. We heard that she died because she disappeared and she went to Pretoria to her aunt and then when she came back, she was accused as a person who was in Penduka at the IFP stronghold.

ADV SIGODI: I won't take the matter any further because what I'm concerned about is what I'm reading from our investigator's report, its on pages 22 and 23, Chairperson. I won't take it any further.

MS MZIZI: I also have that report and I read it because I was interested.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just briefly, Mrs Mzizi, you described Bishop Khumalo as an ANC supporter. Was he a member - not ANC, IFP at least, was he a member of the IFP or merely a supporter?

MS MZIZI: There is a difference between a member and supporter. Members are the people who subscribe to the organisation and the supporters are just the people who would be there but I cannot say whether he was a supporter or a member. I was just referring to him as a supporter, because I used to see him all the time with the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: We've received evidence here from the applicants, at least some of them, that they didn't know what office he may have held within the IFP but they regarded him as a leader within that organisation, as they did Mr Mafulela, or Mr Mlaba, Mafulela Mlaba, they in their own minds, perceived these people to be part of the leadership, the local leadership of the IFP to such an extent that they were prepared to blindly without question, follow orders given by them. Now what's your comment on that?

MS MZIZI: Khumalo was never a leader. The same applies - Mafulela was just a supporter and if there would be rallies, he would even render his services for transport, that is his taxis.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel to Mrs Mzizi? Any questions arising? Thank you.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, I have no questions. Might I make use of this opportunity to hand up Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

MR SWANEPOEL: All the copies have now been prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: You can give them around. Thank you Mr Swanepoel. Mrs Mzizi, thank you, that concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, have you got any further witnesses?

MR SWANEPOEL: No further witnesses Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's 5 to 11. I take it that's the end of the evidence in this hearing? Yes, thank you. I see that it's 5 to

11. I think this would be a convenient time to take a tea break and perhaps during the course of it, if the legal representatives could come and see us in our room and we can discuss how we'll go about submissions in the matter. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: During the tea adjournment, we had a meeting with the legal representatives and ourselves, concerning the question of submissions to be made and it was agree that written submissions will be made by the legal representatives. We've arranged for dates for those to be submitted which means that there will not be any oral submissions which in turn means that this hearing has in fact now come to an end and we do not have any other matters on the role for this week, so we are not finished with our work here.

Before adjourning, I'd just like to thank everyone concerned for making this hearing possible, particularly the owners of the venue who supplied it to us on very short notice. We, as you know, were in Palmridge and because of the electrical problems there, we had to move on short notice. Thank you to them for making it available. I'd like to thank the Department of Correctional Services who on each day had the people they were bringing here brought here timeously. We lost no time through them at all. Thank you very much. I’d like to thank the sound technician for trying to fix things up in Palmridge and managing to do it here. Thank you. The translators for their long and difficult task that they've fulfilled. The people who have come to listen, the television media and caterers, security, everybody concerned, our logistics officer and secretary, thank you very much indeed. It's always enjoyable to, not enjoyable, that might be the wrong word, we find this venue here very convenient and very satisfactory and its always pleasing to be here. Thank you very much.

We'll now adjourn and I just wish you all a good festive season. Drive carefully and enjoy and I'm sure we'll see some of you during the course of the next year in various hearings. Thank you very much.

HEARING ADJOURNS