Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today is the 8th December and if I'm not mistaken, a Friday and it's the continuation of the hearing of Antonie Jagga and three others. Ms Buthelezi is still testifying and she's under cross-examination. Ms Buthelezi, may I remind you that you are still under oath? Thank you. Mr Visser, I think you have to cross-examine her. I take it it's still your intention to cross-examine her?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson, you are correct.

Ms Buthelezi, this document at page 53 of the bundle. It is not a statement, it is not signed, is that correct?

BUZISIWE BENEDICTA BUTHELEZI: (s.u.o.) Yes.

MR VISSER: If you read these comments which you made, is that correct?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: And I think you told us that they were comments on a statement of Mr Jantjie in his amnesty application?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was there any particular reason why you marked it confidential?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, it's just that in the military you have to give it a classification.

MR VISSER: We are all animals of habit, yes. Who typed this document, did you type it yourself?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I did.

MR VISSER: Now I want to talk to you about what you said in paragraph 2. You said

"I disagree with the fact that Betty had financial problems because she was given enough money. Then she was able to rent an expensive flat according to our standards then. She was also able to buy a BMW from her operational funds."

Now the operational funds that you refer to, was that a special payment to Betty Boom or what do you refer to when you talk about operational funds?

MS BUTHELEZI: Operational funds are the type of funds when you leave Lusaka you are given enough money to take care of yourself until you are settled.

MR VISSER: Alright. Would that be a fund or a payment when an MK cadre was going to start a new operation?

MS BUTHELEZI: It was money, it was not a payment. It was money that was going to enable Betty to be able to work, establish her machinery and everything. It's operational funds.

MR VISSER: Yes, because at the time the Free State machinery was in tatters and if I understand you correct, the other machineries were also hurt by the take over by the military government in Lesotho at the time?

MS BUTHELEZI: Certainly.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now, alright, do you have any idea what kind of amount that payment was that she had received?

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't know any idea but it would be in the range of R100 000. That's what I was given.

MR VISSER: R100 000?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, that's what I was given when I left Lusaka.

MR VISSER: So the ANC had a lot of money to spend on their operations?

MS BUTHELEZI: It was a priority.

MR VISSER: I see. And she must have arrived in Lesotho around September 1987?

MS BUTHELEZI: The end of August, early September.

MR VISSER: Okay. You said yesterday that she either bought or rented the BMW, do you remember?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I did.

MR VISSER: Yes. I'm just referring to the fact - I'm just going to refer to this as your statement. We know what we're talking about. In paragraph 2 you did state that she was able to buy the BMW so you're not certain of the fact that she had in fact bought it?

MS BUTHELEZI: According to Mbulelo, Betty had bought a BMW.

MR VISSER: Yes, well according to you yourself, to your own knowledge?

MS BUTHELEZI: She was driving the BMW every day.

MR VISSER: Yes, but she could have rented it?

MS BUTHELEZI: She could have rented it or anything but definitely she had a BMW.

MR VISSER: Or she could have borrowed it. A friend could have let her use it?

MS BUTHELEZI: I wonder which friend but in any case she had a BMW.

MR VISSER: Weren't there quite a number of MKs in Lesotho at the time?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, at that time there were members of Umkhonto weSizwe but not as many as there used to be before January 20th.

MR VISSER: Alright. Now, with that money, the operational funds, would she you have to pay monies to the people that she was operating with in her cell?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well it depended on Betty's modus operandi. If she had to pay money for whatever she wanted or you know, you pay your way through.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS BUTHELEZI: She could have done anything with that money, that was Betty's money. I don't know what she did with the money but all I know is that it was the money that was going to help her settle in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Alright. Do you accept that Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane were two members that fell under her command?

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't know about Tax Sejanamane because Tax was arrested as I've said yesterday and when Tax was arrested, Betty was not yet in this ...(indistinct).

MR VISSER: So - that's not really what I'm asking you. I'm simply asking you whether you can deny that Tax Sejanamane and Nomasonto Mashiya were members under Betty's command.

MS BUTHELEZI: I cannot say anything about Tax but I knew that Betty Nomasonto had close relations.

MR VISSER: Yes, well I'm come to Nomasonto a little while later. You see, you say in paragraph 6, that's the paragraph which you withdrew but I just want to refer you to the last sentence. You're referring there to Esther. Esther disappeared. She was shot. She was carrying her baby. Well, I'm not sure whether you're referring to Esther, perhaps you can tell us.

"Besides, I always met her in town."

Who is this person that you met in town, was that Esther?

MS BUTHELEZI: Debo.

MR VISSER: Debo, okay. And she always enquired about money. What was does that mean?

MS BUTHELEZI: She was enquiring about money.

MR VISSER: She wanted money?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, when are we getting money, when is this going to be done ...(indistinct).

MR VISSER: Yes. Yes and you see, you said on two occasions yesterday that you were told that Mbulelo went to look for Esther and for Nomasonto and on the second occasion you said Mbulelo told you that he went to look for Esther and Betty Boom when monies were received to go and pay the money.

MS BUTHELEZI: Definitely I did not say that. I said Mbulelo told me after I related why was it necessary for Mbulelo to go and look for Betty. It's the Bloemfontein issue, it's the money issue. That is why Mbulelo went to look for Betty, to enquire about the Bloemfontein issue and to reconcile the receipts for December month.

MR VISSER: But you told us yesterday that before that time there were money problems?

MS BUTHELEZI: I never said that, I said the December month was likely to face money problems because they could not reconcile the receipts, yes. And then when money came, it came from Lusaka that month and that is when Mbulelo went around and discovered that it is not only Betty who was missing but more people.

MR VISSER: Alright. Do you know how much Betty Boom paid for the flat that you refer to in paragraph 2?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well, according to Mbulelo it was around R500. MR VISSER: So again it's not your own knowledge?

MS BUTHELEZI: Mbulelo could not tell me lies, he could not formulate a story about Betty.

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, surely you know what I refer to when I say it's not your own knowledge. It means that somebody else told you that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, Mbulelo told him that why would he lie about Betty.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now Mr Nthunya told the Committee quite fairly that as far as Ngono was concerned, it's possible that he could have defected to the enemy but it was highly improbable. Did you hear him say that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Are you, in your paragraph 5, saying the same where you say that you have two answers. It's either that Betty was misleading Jantjie or that she was really an enemy agent and you said yesterday that you haven't decided in your own mind which of the two it was.

MS BUTHELEZI: I said it's an unresolved question.

MR VISSER: Unresolved question. Is that in other words the same as what Mr Nthunya has said about his opinion about Mr Ngono. As far as you're concerned does the same apply to Betty Boom?

MS BUTHELEZI: Definitely not.

MR VISSER: Well you see I don't understand that, that's why I'm asking you the question.

MS BUTHELEZI: He spoke about Ngono, I spoke about Betty and there's nothing that would make me say Ngono was an enemy agent or an askari or whatever you want me to say. I don't believe it, I don't think he could just like Betty. The arrest of Mr Ngono did not lead to any mass arrest. His contact inside the country were intact so you know, when you say a person is an enemy agent, you must be able to expand and say he's an enemy agent, he led to the death of so and so, he led to the arrest of so and so, to the breaking of such and such structures, therefore he did not do that, therefore I can never share the same opinion with Mr Nthunya.

MR LAX: You've misunderstood the question. The question was put to you on this basis and that is that in the same way that Mr Nthunya, when talking about Mbulelo Ngono said it is possible that he might have become an informer but he doesn't think that is probable. That was, he says it's highly unlikely but it is possible in the way that anything is possible. That's how he put it. Have I put that correctly, Mr Visser?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And then he was saying by comparison to what Nthunya said about Ngono, are you saying the same thing about Betty? In other words, it's possible she might have been an informer or she might have been trying to mislead Jantjie but you don't think that is probable. In other words you think it's highly unlikely but it is possible in the nature that most things are possible.

MS BUTHELEZI: Well, there is nothing that I read about Mr Ngono that said that Mr ...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, no, we're not talking about Ngono.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay.

MR LAX: We're talking about Betty and so what he is saying to you is by way of comparison, Nthunya who knew Ngono said that it's possible he might have become an informer but he doesn't think it's probable. Do you understand the difference between those two concepts?

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay, okay.

MR LAX: And then Mr Visser is saying to you are you in the same way as Nthunya now talking about Betty Boom, not Ngono? Are you saying and this is what he is trying to understand from you, are you saying it is possible that Betty might have become an informer or been tricking Jantjie but you don't think that it's probable? That's what he is asking you.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you should remember that you spoke of Betty and this is how you put it"

"According to my subjective view she was a young woman, she belonged to the central committee of the SACP and as a young woman, that was fulfilling."

Do you recall saying something to that effect?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: So he is speaking along those lines when he asked you that question.

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I do not agree with Mr Nthunya. I have a different opinion.

MR VISSER: About Betty Boom?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: What did you mean by saying

"I have two answers to this ..."

in your paragraph 5,

"either Betty Boom was misleading Jantjie or she was really an enemy agent."

MS BUTHELEZI: Well it came to my mind but to think further about Betty I dismissed the second part. My reasoning, after I analyzed Betty and everything, I came to a conclusion that Betty couldn't have been an enemy agent.

MR VISSER: Well you see then I don't understand why yesterday as well as today you said the matter is still unresolved in your mind?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, it's still unresolved in my mind but I did mention in this room, in this house, that I mentioned to Mr Chairperson what Mr Chairperson has just quoted. I said in my belief, in my sincere and honest belief, I don't think Betty could have been an enemy agent.

MR VISSER: Alright, let me ask you this. Are you saying it's quite impossible that she might have become an enemy agent? You dismiss this as a possibility?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I do.

MR VISSER: Okay and one of the reasons why you say so, is you say there were no mass arrests?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: That followed the time when the applicants say that they took her to Ladybrand and placed her back in Lesotho.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: The explanation for that could very well be in the case of all these victims that they were taken away before they could do any harm?

MS BUTHELEZI: Doing what?

MR VISSER: Giving information about people in Lesotho who could be arrested, etc.

MS BUTHELEZI: But why would they abduct them, turn them into enemy agents for nothing? I don't think they were just abducting them for the sake of abducting them?

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, I wasn't suggesting to you that they did that, all I'm suggesting to you now is that we know that they disappeared. We know that Betty Boom and certainly Betty Boom disappeared in December. We know that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: There are indications and I will argue it that Nomasonto Mashiya also was taken out of Lesotho in December and the probabilities are that Tax Sejanamane also, I know what your evidence is, was also taken out in December and that well, my attorney says I must make it easier, make it December or January, if you wish. But the fact is that they disappeared, they disappeared very shortly after they were taken out of Lesotho. I think that's common cause.

MS BUTHELEZI: But you are confusing me, I don't understand.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, it isn't common cause.

MR LAX: But can I just add this if I may, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR LAX: It's your client's case that they did give information.

MR VISSER: Yes I know.

MR LAX: So you can't very well put it to her that there was no information, she's saying something diametrically opposite.

MR VISSER: Well, can I put it to you this way. You know Mr Nthunya gave evidence which was imminently reasonable. He said he thought that Mr Ngono, he wasn't a fool. What he would have done is he wouldn't have resisted arrest, he would have gone along with this abduction and see what happened and we also know from experience that when people were attempting to be recruited as informers, they held information back, they didn't give all the information that they had. ANC people did that, they held information back. We've heard evidence, Ms Buthelezi, from Mr de Kock that some of the people that he had to do with never gave them information.

MR LAX: But that's not your client's case, with respect, with regard to Betty Boom. So your clients have said that had contact with her, that the debriefed her, that she gave them valuable information that resulted in deaths and arrests and a whole range of other things and then what is more, when they took her to the farm she was cooperating and they debriefed her in detail. So it's not the same situation, with respect and if you're putting it to this witness on that basis it's a bit of a misleading question.

MR VISSER: Yes, I see what you're saying, Commissioner Lax and perhaps I should have been more clear about it. I think the problem here is that I'm trying to follow a shotgun approach on all the applicants whereas I should really distinguish Betty Boom and put her separately because she was a separate case.

MR LAX: Absolutely.

MR VISSER: Yes and what is more is that Betty Boom was in fact according to the evidence of Jagga and Jantjie in Lesotho until January as my attorney just corrected me.

MR LAX: Correct.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should just leave this for argument, Chairperson.

The fact is that - well, let me ask you that. I don't think you know, do you, whether these four people in fact disappeared from the face of the earth, let's say latest January of 1988. I'm sorry, I'm not including Mr Ngono now, I'm talking about Betty and/or Nomasonto and/or Tax Sejanamane.

MS BUTHELEZI: I would not say they disappeared from the face of the earth in 1988 but the ANC was unbanned, people were released, even those who were enemy agent, are in the ANC some of them are in the SANDF as where are they now, where are they?

MR VISSER: Alright. Your evidence about Tax Sejanamane is that he went missing, I think you said, in June 1987 when he was arrested by the Kwa-Kwa Police.

MS BUTHELEZI: I didn't say he went missing, I said he was arrested by the Kwa-Kwa Police.

MR VISSER: Okay, thank you. How long ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, but you did say that he was never seen again?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, yes, okay.

MR VISSER: Was that since June 1987 that as far as you were concerned he was never seen again?

MS BUTHELEZI: Not since June, he could have been arrested earlier on but what we saw on the newspaper was around June.

MR VISSER: Yes, so you read in the newspaper of his arrest in Kwa-Kwa.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is that all you know about Tax Sejanamane?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes. I don't know him, I just read in the paper and Mbulelo tried to give me a description of Tax but really, I think he looks like many people so it was very difficult to place him.

MR VISSER: Yes, did Mr Mbulelo then told you - I should really say Mbulelo because that's his MK name I think, that Mbulelo then tell you that he was an MK cadre that had been arrested?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, he told me that his ...(indistinct) was banned. He said no, you must know him. He tried to, you know, there were many people in Angola, you can't just remember each and every one of them.

MR VISSER: Yes, well we're in Lesotho now. The ...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, no, you misunderstand. She was trying to recollect him from the training camps in Angola.

MR VISSER: Oh I see.

MR LAX: It's on that basis she was trying to recollect.

MR VISSER: Yes, no fine. Thank you.

So apart from a newspaper report that was drawn to your attention by Mbulelo, you don't know anything further about what happened to Tax Sejanamane?

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't know anything about Tax.

MR VISSER: Of course, so how can you discard the possibility that he was in Lesotho in December 1987.

MS BUTHELEZI: Is it normal for you to be arrested and be in Lesotho in 1987 when you are supposed to be arrested by Kwa-Kwa Police? Is it a normal occurrence?

MR VISSER: Well, I don't know whether he was charged. There is no evidence before us. What happened about this, we've heard of an arrest in Kwa-Kwa but that's all?

MS BUTHELEZI: But Mr Visser, may I ask you, is it not possible for the South African Police then to go to Kwa-Kwa and take Tax wherever, was it not possible for the South African Police?

MR VISSER: I suppose so. The point is this, the point is this, Ms Buthelezi, that here are applicants applying for amnesty in regard to taking Tax out of Lesotho in December 1987. Can you think of any reason why they would do that if it never happened?

MS BUTHELEZI: Why do you think those applicants are telling the truth and I'm telling lies.

MR VISSER: Well, we'll leave that for argument.

MR LAX: Sorry, no one is saying you're telling lies.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, there's no such suggestion.

MR LAX: Just understand this, really in essence. All Mr Visser is doing to you in this issue is trying to put what his clients are saying to you for your comments. He is not saying you're lying. It's his duty to do that.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay.

MR VISSER: And also I'm trying to see whether there isn't further information which you might be able to help us with, the Committee in order to decide on the issues.

Now you told the Committee yesterday that you had informers, is that correct?

MS BUTHELEZI: Exactly, sources.

MR VISSER: Sources. Were these sources in Lesotho or also in the Republic of South Africa?

MS BUTHELEZI: Only in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Only in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright and were they ANC followers, supporters or were they among the local population?

MS BUTHELEZI: Local population and in highly placed State organs.

MR VISSER: So they were not necessarily ANC members?

MS BUTHELEZI: No.

MR VISSER: They were not necessarily ANC supporters.

MS BUTHELEZI: They were a variety of people.

MR VISSER: No, just answer this question.

MR VISSER: Were some of them ANC supporters?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: And ANC sympathisers?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would they have had access to meetings of the Cape machinery of the Free State machinery?

MS BUTHELEZI: No.

MR VISSER: So what kind of information would you receive from these sources?

MS BUTHELEZI: I guess I'm not about the reveal what the information what my sources gave me as I tell you I had a specific mission and the information that they gave me was related to that specific mission that I was to carry out in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: I see, alright and the reason why you can't tell us about that is why?

MS BUTHELEZI: Is because some of the people, some people are still in Lesotho and you know that the situation in Lesotho is unstable, it might jeopardise them.

MR VISSER: Right, fair enough, I accept that.

How many sources did you have in Lesotho.

MS BUTHELEZI: A range. Many.

MR VISSER: Not two or three?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, more than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just an estimation.

MS BUTHELEZI: Around fifteen.

MR VISSER: Fifteen.

CHAIRPERSON: Fifteen or fifty?

MS BUTHELEZI: Fifteen. I had lots of sources although some of them - I don't know how to describe it but I had people to give my information, that information that I wanted.

MR VISSER: Now listen carefully to this question. Was the idea of the sources inter alia to keep tabs on the members of MK in Lesotho and tell you about what they were doing?

MS BUTHELEZI: I said the sources that I had were related to my mission in Lesotho but those sources could have as well have information about MK members but I had my mission and my mission was to be fulfilled by those - was to be achieved through those sources.

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, I'm going to have to ask you again. Was it part of the function of your sources to give you information so that you could keep tabs on the activities of MK members in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: I said not all members of MK in Lesotho but whatever information that I needed, whether it's about MK or a particular issue. If they were in position to give me they would give me.

MR VISSER: Yes, so it wasn't their prime purpose that these sources had to report to you on the movements and the activities of MK members in Lesotho. That wasn't their prime purpose?

MS BUTHELEZI: Mr Visser, I think you know that when you get information it's rough information. When you get information you get rough information and then you evaluate it, you disseminate it and you take what is intelligence information. That was my duty as an intelligence officer.

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, I'm not going to let you go on this. Was it or wasn't it one of the prime functions of your sources in Lesotho to give you information about the activities of MK members in Lesotho.

MS BUTHELEZI: The primariness of - whether it's primary or not depended on the type of information that I needed. So if I need information about MK or about any other thing it became primary, it became primary. It depended on the situation whether it's primary or not.

MR VISSER: Perhaps we can solve this problem this way. I ask you this question. Did your sources in fact report to you about the activities of other MK members in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes they did.

MR VISSER: All the MK members in Lesotho or just some of them?

MS BUTHELEZI: Some of them, depending on what is it that I want.

MR VISSER: Yes. You wouldn't have wanted anything from Betty Boom, you didn't work with her, not so?

MS BUTHELEZI: No. Yes.

MR VISSER: Nor Tax Sejanamane because you thought he was under arrest in Kwa-Kwa.

MS BUTHELEZI: Apart from that I didn't know Tax Sejanamane so there was nothing that I could ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: And neither did you know Nomasonto Mashiya?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: What was your relationship with Mbulelo Ngono? Did you work with him?

MS BUTHELEZI: He was on the operational side so he was working with ...(indistinct) but lived together.

MR VISSER: So those are people that you would not, under normal circumstances, receive information about from your sources. Would I be correct to say that?

MS BUTHELEZI: I would receive information about them because if it was of a life threatening nature, if it was an intelligence nature, Mbulelo would give me information about them.

MR VISSER: Was he your source?

MS BUTHELEZI: Who, Mbulelo? No he was not. Don't you know the relation between a commander and an intelligence officer? A relationship between a commander and an intelligence officer is that when a commander has a problem, an intelligence officer should solve it or should come with a solution to the problem.

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, I'm talking about your sources.

MS BUTHELEZI: Mbulelo was not my source.

MR VISSER: Thank you. Did any of your sources inform you of the fact that Betty Boom had left Maseru?

MS BUTHELEZI: No specific information that Betty - after Mbulelo told me I went to find out and I confirmed that Betty did leave Maseru through my sources. I confirmed the information from Mbulelo through my sources.

MR VISSER: Yes, well you see that is something that we haven't heard before. Have you forgotten about that until now?

MS BUTHELEZI: What?

MR VISSER: What you've just told us.

MS BUTHELEZI: What?

MR VISSER: That you went to confirm that she had disappeared through your sources?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I did say yesterday that when Mbulelo needed something he would tell me and I had a way of getting information. I did say it yesterday.

MR VISSER: Well I just want to put it to you for the record that you've never told us before that after you heard that Betty Boom had disappeared, you went to make enquiries yourself?

MS BUTHELEZI: But I did say that when Mbulelo needed something from me, he needed some information or told me something I had to confirm it, I did say it yesterday.

MR VISSER: Did you go and talk to Mr Nthunya at the time about this?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, Mr Nthunya was not there.

MR VISSER: He wasn't there. Did you talk to Lindelwe Mabece at the time?

MS BUTHELEZI: I did not know her.

MR VISSER: Did you talk to Mr Ngono's sister, Miss Ngono, at the time?

MS BUTHELEZI: I had no relationship with Mr Ngono's sister. For the first time I saw her it was when this hearing started.

MR VISSER: So in other words the answer to all the above is no, you didn't talk to any of them?

MS BUTHELEZI: No.

MR VISSER: You spoke to other sources.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'm not going to ask you the names of them. Now, you see the point that you made about mass arrests and you were saying this to me on a few occasions this morning and I'm going to say the same to you. You, as an intelligence officer should know that if you - if the Police got information about ten people in Lesotho, they wouldn't just clamp down and go and arrest all ten of them because that would give the whole game away, wouldn't it? They would normally go and plan around that information and for example abduct, kill, murder, keep a person, not so?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well I cannot talk for the South African Police because you know that there were preemptive strikes and the preemptive strikes was meant to destroy everyone.

MR VISSER: I'm just putting to you that nothing can be made of the fact that weren't mass arrests after Betty Boom, had become an informer of the security branch at Ladybrand?

MS BUTHELEZI: But do you think the South African Police would live with people and Communist Party members active inside South Africa without doing anything to them?

MR VISSER: Can you deny that Mr Tony Yengeni was in fact arrested as a result of information given by Ms Betty Boom?

MS BUTHELEZI: I cannot confirm that I cannot comment on that.

MR VISSER: And I think it's Mr Mpanga, there's some confusion as to who the person was, Chairperson, I'm not sure where in the record it is. Mr Robertshaw referred to the name and he was saying that Jagga had the wrong name. I'm just trying to find it quickly, Chairperson. The persons that you referred to that killed in the Republic of South Africa, remember those two that you referred to yesterday? Were they killed in Bloemfontein?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Have you ever heard of a person by the name of Makanda, that is Mr Jagga's evidence at 279, Chairperson. Makanda?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, but I want to know when was Tony Yengeni arrested if you can remind me?

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, I think you just - please, I haven't got that information, please just stick to answering the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not going to negate, it's just the evidence is that through information given by Ms Betty Boom, Tony Yengeni was arrested in the Western Cape, no date given.

That's the evidence before us.

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't remember very well when was Mr Yengeni arrested.

MR VISSER: I don't know what the date is.

MR LAX: Can I say this. You can confirm possibly, Mr Visser. In the way the information was given by Jagga at least, it was information they got that they fed into the channels and quite soon after that they had results because based on the results he wanted to pay her money and the money hadn't come through by the time she disappeared to we can safely assume that the arrests would have taken place sometime in November or December.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no. It should be the following year.

MR LAX: Well December or the very early part of January because it's the applicant's case that by the second week in January she was gone. So it must have been sometime in - it must have been in December, it couldn't have been in January because they were already processing the claim and the money was due to come through. So we can pinpoint it down at best the first two weeks of January, the beginning of December sometime 87/88.

MR VISSER: No, no, end of December beginning of January.

MR LAX: Yes, somewhere there.

MS BUTHELEZI: 1988.

MR LAX: No, no, '87/early '88.

MS BUTHELEZI: That's when around Tony Yengeni was ...(intervention)

MR LAX: That's the evidence of Mr Jagga and Mr Robertshaw.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, what you must understand is that in December, middle of December, according to the evidence of the applicants, Ms Betty Boom, Ms Nomasonto Mashiya, Tax Sejanamane and Mbulelo Ngono were abducted and the information they got actually from Betty Boom who was returned into Lesotho later in December, out of the information she gave because had turned her to work for the security people, Tony Yengeni was one of the people arrested because of that kind of information provided by Ms Boom and that led to the crushing of the unit in the Western Cape. So according to them that information was valuable because they were able to relate to their other colleagues in the Western Cape who were able to crash the unit in the Western Cape. That's the evidence. So we're saying -we're not saying we are drawing an inference. If they obtained that information late in December and if the arrest of Tony Yengeni happened, it's either late December '87 or early January 1988. That's the inference drawn by us according to the evidence given.

MS BUTHELEZI: I can only comment once I'm sure about the dates because I'm not sure whether Betty, the disappearance of Betty and Tony Yengeni's trial were around the same time. I'm not sure about that unless someone can confirm with the date then I cannot comment.

MR VISSER: Alright, that's fair enough Ms Buthelezi and I wasn't expecting you to say something that you don't have personal knowledge of. Do you know a person by the name of Makanda? I'm now referring to page 613, Chairperson, of the record, at the top of the page. M-A-K-A-N-D-A.

MR MAPOMA: Sorry, on page?

MR VISSER: 613.

MR LAX: It really doesn't matter whether you read it or not. Does such a name Makanda ring a bell for you?

MS BUTHELEZI: I know lots of Makandas, people with a combat name of Makanda in the ANC so I don't know which Makanda you're referring to.

MR VISSER: Alright. Did you know a Makanda that was arrested more or less in the same period of time that the Chairperson spoke to you about just now, December '87 to January 1988?

MS BUTHELEZI: No.

MR VISSER: Arrested in Bloemfontein?

MS BUTHELEZI: No. No.

MR VISSER: Alright. Now the two people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, before you go away from there, the other name that Mr Robertshaw thought of was Kapang.

MR VISSER: Oh yes, yes.

MR LAX: And he thought that Mr Jagga was mistaken and that the name might have been Kapanda. Do you know of any Kapanda? Or Mapanda, maybe?

MS BUTHELEZI: I've never heard of such a name.

MR VISSER: Alright.

MR LAX: I'm sorry Mr Visser, I just wanted to be clear about that.

MR VISSER: No, thank you. That's actually that I was looking for and it just flew out of my mind.

MR LAX: It's just the next line underneath.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you. I do appreciate that.

MR LAX: Just for the record, that name also appears on page 613 of the transcript.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now the two people that were killed in - I'm sorry, I did ask you whether they were killed in Bloemfontein, didn't I?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you say yes they were?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, they were killed in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Alright. Now those two people, did you know their or do you know their names?

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't know their names, it was as I said yesterday that Mbulelo came across those people. They came to him and they said they were from Bloemfontein, they worked with Mr Kasrils and then Mbulelo, once it was a Bloemfontein matter he referred it back to Betty.

MR VISSER: Yes, you said so and therefore you have no idea of what their names were?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, we just spoke about two guys.

MR VISSER: Okay. Now do you know, however, the circumstances under which they were killed?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I only know that they were killed and that's when Mbulelo started - I said yesterday that's when Mbulelo started looking for Betty to give him an explanation about her death.

MR VISSER: Alright, because you see at page 620 of the record it was put to Mr Robertshaw by Mr Malindi that they should rather have arrested the whole of the unit instead of trying to re-transform the unit as informers and Mr Robertshaw said the following

"Chairperson, we utilized the information"

and I interrupt myself by saying this is information that he received from the cell via Betty Boom, that's what he is referring to.

"and when utilizing that information, this person that we've referred to before was killed in Bloemfontein."

That is now Mapanda or Kapanda, whoever. Then he says this:

"There were also other people killed in a road block in Bloemfontein. That was a result of the information that we'd received from the cell."

And then he refers at page 621, but perhaps I should just ask you first. You see, why I'm reading this to you is because I was going to ask you whether this might ring a bell that the two persons that you spoke about might have been killed in the roadblock in Bloemfontein, that this may be the same incident that Mr Robertshaw was referring to?

MS BUTHELEZI: I can't comment on that.

MR VISSER: Fair enough. And just for completeness sake, at page 621 at the top, he says - if I can just carry on, on that, Chairperson

"We had information that they wanted to attack - we'll bomb the army offices in Maitland Street ...(inaudible) also guards were placed to guard the area to that didn't take place."

Did you know of any plans by Betty Boom's cell or people under her command to bomb the army offices in Maitland Street in Bloemfontein?

MS BUTHELEZI: As I have stated that I did not work with Betty, I had no relations with Betty so it's impossible for me to have known that.

MR VISSER: Alright, fair enough. Now I'm still with your sources, you see and I want to ask you, yesterday you were asked whether - I think it's Commissioner Lax who asked you this, if I'm not mistaken. You were asked whether you were ever informed of suspicions regarding Betty Boom and the fact that she might have been considered to have become an informer. You remember that question?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I remember.

MR VISSER: And then you started off by saying the rumours fly. Can you remember that?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, it's after ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Visser, she did say that but she then went on to explain that that was after she went missing and not at that time because I clarified that with her.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR LAX: Because I just specifically asked her about that. It struck me as well at the time and I clarified it afterwards.

MR VISSER: The reason why I'm asking the question now is because in my mind it's not clear, Chairperson. If I may ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: What were you referring to when you used that expression "rumours fly"?

MS BUTHELEZI: As I said, whenever any person is missing there were lots of rumours about who is selling out, who is not selling out but it is, a rumour will come out after a person has been arrested or a person has been killed, you know. You know, rumours fly, people without - in the absence of the truth, they start building their own stories in their minds.

MR VISSER: Yes, I think that's just what Mr Lax has just been telling me. Now all that I want to ask you is this. In Betty Boom's case, rumours would not have flown because you did not know that she was missing?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes but there was a time when I knew that she was missing.

MR VISSER: Yes but that was only later?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, later, yes. Around the 19th, 18th, just around pay day, let me put it that way.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, are you putting a date to the time she went missing?

MS BUTHELEZI: I'm not putting a time but we used to get our money on the 20th of every month.

MR LAX: And by then she was missing.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes she was missing, that's why I said the pay was late that month.

MR LAX: Yes.

MS BUTHELEZI: Not pay, but the allowance was late that month.

MR LAX: And as far as you're aware she wasn't seen again after that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Never to be seen again.

MR LAX: And that was - you know that because she was responsible with Mbulelo in organising payments?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Because that's been your evidence as I understand it?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, reconciling the receipts and taking them back to ...(indistinct), getting money, distributing it.

MR VISSER: Yes, I was going to ask you about that because in your evidence yesterday you never said that.

MS BUTHELEZI: I did.

MR VISSER: Alright, fair enough. You see, I just want to take issue with you on your evidence where you said that if Betty Boom had been returned to Lesotho, as I understood your evidence, your sources would have informed you about that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, my sources because I had taken the message to the sources and they knew that we were looking for Betty, the whereabouts of Betty, definitely they would have informed me and apart from that, Lesotho, as you know Maseru is a very small place.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: I think, Chairperson, in all fairness, she did not confine it to the sources. She said she would have known that not only that her sources should have informed her.

MR VISSER: Well I beg to disagree, Chairperson, but I'll leave it.

And you also say that if Betty Boom had gone to Lusaka you would have been briefed by the leadership?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now is it possible that that could have happened without you being briefed?

MS BUTHELEZI: It's not possible. It's not possible, I can say that with certainty. It's not.

MR VISSER: Are you saying that under no circumstances could a member of MK be removed from where he operates and taken to Lusaka without all the people in command positions in the ANC knowing about it, in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: Moving from where to where?

MR VISSER: From Lesotho to Lusaka.

MS BUTHELEZI: It could have been possible that he might have left. In the first place I would have known if she was leaving Lesotho and I would have known if she did arrive in Lusaka. I would have known, it was a matter of interest. Not only a matter of interest, it's a matter that affected all of us, that affected both the Cape and the Orange Free State mission.

MR VISSER: How did Betty Boom affect the Cape mission?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, but the security of Betty as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, if Betty's life was in danger it means all the lives of the members of Umkhonto weSizwe is in danger.

MR VISSER: Are you thereby saying that she would have known of operations of the Cape machinery?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I don't say she would have known, I'm talking about security.

MR VISSER: And would she have known who the operatives were that were involved in the Cape machinery?

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't know. I don't know. You know, you don't know what people, you don't know what people don't know. I can't talk on behalf of ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Alright.

MR LAX: Just before you move on? What I'm trying to understand is why would it then have been a threat? Why would she have represented a threat, for her being missing represented a threat? I just want you to explain that for us because it's now not clear to my why you say that?

MS BUTHELEZI: I mean if one member of MK is missing it's a concern. The people there might have not known that Betty is working for the Orange Free State machinery and they viewed them, the Police, the enemy viewed them as members of Umkhonto weSizwe. So anything that affects Betty automatically affects all of us.

MR LAX: Yes but you said it's a security threat and so ...(intervention)

MS BUTHELEZI: Maybe a security threat, maybe it's not the correct word but what happens to one member of MK, you know there's a pattern. If something happens in Swaziland, you know, it's likely to happen in Botswana, it's likely happen in Lesotho. So by the mere missing of Betty, it was a matter of concern. It was a matter of concern.

MR LAX: You see, I can understand that you'd be concerned that your comrade is missing, that is one thing and that's about personal concern about the safety of another person but this was deeper than that, as I would understand your evidence and that you were worried about the consequences of her being missing and what possible information she may give if she had been tortured or whatever. Those would be, as an intelligence officer, your concerns?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was concerned about it, yes.

MR LAX: So in the light of that, who might she have been able to sell out? Let's call it that way. Not sell out, who might she have been able to give information about that would cause you as an intelligence officer concerned and that's really what Mr Visser was asking you?

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay. But ...(intervention)

MR LAX: All we're trying to understand is, she represented a security risk and what we're trying to understand is what was the extent of that security risk? In other words, who would she have known about that she would have been able to tell the security branch about or the Lesotho Police of whoever it might have been? Do you understand?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: That's really what - so what was the nature of the threat that she represented?

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay. You want me to answer that one? Well, Betty knew a lot of people, those who were working under her. She knew Mbulelo, she knew lots of people back in Lusaka, as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe she knew lots of things and she really represented.

MR VISSER: Did she know anything about you?

MS BUTHELEZI: Betty knew me. I don't know whether she knew that I was in Lesotho or not but I knew that she was in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Do you think that she might not have known that you were in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: There is a possibility. There is.

MR VISSER: And did you consider that Tax Sejanamane's arrest might have caused a security risk for the people in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: At that time of his arrest I don't know with whom was Tax working and I don't know whose people lives or anything could he have endangered.

MR VISSER: The question is, did you think that his arrest could endanger the lives of some of the members of MK in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: Naturally, when somebody is arrested other people's lives are in danger.

MR VISSER: I see. Did you do anything about that, to counter that threat?

MS BUTHELEZI: To counter what?

MR VISSER: The threat of him exposing members whereabouts, the addresses, activities of members of MK in Lesotho to the South African Police?

MS BUTHELEZI: I was not working with Tax and there was nothing that I could do because he was in Kwa-Kwa and Mr Visser, I want to emphasis again, that I had a specific mission in Lesotho and I never knew Tax. The first time I heard about Tax is when I read about him and Mbulelo told me that he was Esther's husband and that's it.

MR VISSER: Well, Ms Buthelezi, in fact I've got to agree with you because I'm going to submit to this Committee that your evidence here is virtually totally based on hearsay, things that you read, things that you heard from other people and preciously very little of your evidence is based on your own knowledge of the facts. So I quite agree with you, you had your mission and you really had nothing to do with the rest of what was going on there?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, I had my mission and as an intelligence officer, where do you get information?

MR VISSER: Yes. And as ...(intervention)

MS BUTHELEZI: No, Mr Visser? As an intelligence officer, where does an intelligence officer get information from?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Buthelezi, I think I should stop you there. You have just to respond to his questions, you can't ask him questions. If you do have questions which need to be answered, you speak to Mr Mapoma.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay. I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser you just have to answer questions, please.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay.

MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, for example as an intelligence officer, did you for example inform Lusaka that you had heard or read in the newspaper that Tax Sejanamane who was an MK member in Lesotho had been arrested by the South African or the Kwa-Kwa Police?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, in my report I was supposed to read because I want to explain something to you, Mr Visser. As an intelligence officer you get your information from various sources and the newspaper is part of the sources as is part of the source that you get information. So if I see information on a ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just sit a little closer to the microphone because your voice is a bit soft and the interpreters are struggling to hear you.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay. As say as an intelligence officer, you get information from various sources, from libraries, archives, whatever. The newspaper was one of my sources. I had my living sources and if a member of MK was arrested, surely I was to give a report to Lusaka and I couldn't have skipped the information about Tax Sejanamane.

MR VISSER: Well then you see I'm surprised that when I gave you the opportunity of telling us what you did as a result of reading that article you didn't tell the Committee that until I suggested it to you?

MS BUTHELEZI: No it's because, Mr Chairperson reprimanded me because he reprimanded me, he said I'm not allowed to ask you questions. I was asking that question so that I should tell you that where do I get my information.

MR VISSER: That wasn't the question, Ms Buthelezi.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, but I was telling you, I was going to tell you that. It was important for me to get information from everyone, from everywhere.

MR VISSER: That wasn't what the question was about. I asked you what you did when you read in the newspaper about the arrest of Tax Sejanamane.

MS BUTHELEZI: In my report naturally I would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No but she's quite correct because that's when she said to you, Mr Visser, where do you think an intelligence officer does x, y, z and then I stopped her, I said she mustn't ask you questions, she must respond to your questions.

MR VISSER: Alright. Now in paragraph 11 at page 54, you mention a date of the 15th March 1988 and then in your evidence in chief yesterday you retracted that, is that correct? You said it wasn't the 15th March?

MS BUTHELEZI: I said around the 15th. It is also written down that it was around that.

MR VISSER: So are you retracting that or are you saying that as it stands there it's correct?

MS BUTHELEZI: It is correct. It's around the 15th March. I said some of the things here and I did mention on paragraph 90 that there are some mistakes which I didn't rectify.

MR LAX: But you see ...(intervention)

MS BUTHELEZI: Pardon.

MR LAX: Let me explain this to you. Yesterday you were very clear to us that you weren't certain about the 15th. It could have been after the 15th?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I said the 15th and the 2nd April.

MR LAX: And we then spoke about the death certificate and so on?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And therefore you said, yes this is a mistake and you're retracting it?

MS BUTHELEZI: I said yes.

MR LAX: Now Mr Visser is saying to you, well he is confirming to you that you're retracting that information and you're saying no. So it's a bit confusing and that's why he is asking you the question.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay. Remember, Mr Visser, I did say there were mistakes here and I said it's around the 15th and I don't remember whether it's between the Chairperson or Mr - the other Chairperson who asked me whether I returned to Lusaka and what did you ask me, Sir? I returned?

MR VISSER: Yes, I was wondering whether you remembered the question. The question is are you retracting that date now or are you saying it's correct about the 15th March 1988?

MS BUTHELEZI: I said around the 15th, between the 15th and the 2nd April.

MR VISSER: And you say that's correct?

MS BUTHELEZI: I did mention that there were mistakes.

MR VISSER: Please Ms Buthelezi, you're an intelligent person. Are you retracting that date now or aren't you?

MS BUTHELEZI: I'm retracting it.

MR VISSER: Where did you hear that date for the first time, from whom? How did it come about that you mentioned when you were doing this, this statement if I may call it that, in regard to Jantjie's amnesty application? Why did you think of putting the date of the 15th March in paragraph 11. Where did it come from?

MS BUTHELEZI: The events took place from December and around March it was around when Mbulelo died, when lots of things happened, subsequent disappearance, abduction of Ngono. So it is around that time. It was around the 15th because I remember very well I did not stay long in Lesotho after that, I had to leave Lesotho.

MR VISSER: I'm asking you this. Did somebody tell you about the date of the 15th March 1988 at the time when you made these written comments on Jantjie's statement?

MS BUTHELEZI: No. I didn't talk to anybody, I just got this and I commented on this.

MR VISSER: And you just remembered the date.

MS BUTHELEZI: The 15th March really was a day not to forget or around those days because Mbulelo died so it's not a thing that a person - something happened around the 15th March and that something is a thing that is very difficult to forget so there were events that went on around that date so nobody told me, I'd never seen the certificate, it's for the first time that I saw the certificate but there were some incident that took place around that time so really I - the incidents that I wouldn't forget really.

MR VISSER: How did you know that Ngono left Lesotho in September of 1987? Was it something that you were told?

MS BUTHELEZI: I say I stayed with Ngono in the same house and around September Ngono left and I knew that he had gone on a mission so I knew that he was ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Were you staying with Ngono in the same house?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes we stayed in the same house.

MR VISSER: I see and why do you remember that date so well, September 1987?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, that's around the time that he left because it was shortly after I'd arrived from Lusaka and he didn't stay long and then he left.

MR VISSER: And just remind us again, when did you arrive from Lusaka?

MS BUTHELEZI: Mid September, I think mid September and that's around the time, I did not stay long with him and then he left and I knew that he had gone to the front.

MR VISSER: I see and did you see him ever again after September 1987?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I saw him.

MR VISSER: And when was that?

MS BUTHELEZI: It was in February.

MR VISSER: And why do you remember that so well? Couldn't it have been in December?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, it was in February. I remember. There are things that, you know, it's was not in January, it was in February when they came and there was a report about Fana's death and I had to go and give a full briefing in Lesotho - in Lusaka and around that time that I left.

MR VISSER: When did Fana die?

MS BUTHELEZI: Fana died in January.

MR VISSER: In January?

MS BUTHELEZI: Late January.

MR VISSER: Late January, alright. Just bear with me please?

I'm jumping around a bit, I'm just going back to paragraph 11. I just want to ask you, that sentence, that first sentence.

"The Lesotho Police were on duty around 15th March 1988 can also prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were the ones who handed over Mbulelo to the then South African Police."

Does that sentence mean - I know that you have retracted it, finally, but I just want to know does the sentence mean that at a particular date the Lesotho Police handed over Mbulelo to the South African Police and that is the date when you say he was abducted?

MS BUTHELEZI: It's not - around that date.

MR VISSER: Around that date?

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose what the witness says here is that around that time, not necessarily on the 15th March.

MR VISSER: No, no, no, I accept that Chairperson, because she's retracted the 15th March and I'm not holding that against her, I just wanted - because earlier you'll recall there was some dispute as to the import of what the sentence meant and I said that I will clear it with Ms Buthelezi.

Now you say in paragraph 8, at page 54 the last sentence, you say:

"The ANC leadership was pressurising the Lesotho Government through the United Nations and the OAU demanding that Mbulelo to be deported to Lusaka or Tanzania"

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Are you quite sure that that happened in regard to Mbulelo Ngono?

MS BUTHELEZI: It will happen to everybody who has been arrested by the Basothos.

MR VISSER: Well you see, now I've got to ask you, are you quite sure that in regard to Mbulelo Ngono this in fact took place, that the ANC put pressure on the Lesotho Government through the United Nations and the Organisation of Africa Unity to deport him to Lusaka or Tanzania?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, the ANC would under normal circumstances, any person who is arrested by the Lesotho Police pressurise the Lesotho Government through the UN and the regional office.

MR VISSER: Can you put it no higher than that? So we don't know whether it in fact happened in the case of Mbulelo?

MS BUTHELEZI: I am certain that comrade Chris Hani and Steve Tshwete were working on that. They were working on that, had a contract and he assured me on many occasions, especially Mr Steve Tshwete, he assured me on many occasions that they are really working because we were under the impression then that - he was under the impression that he is still somewhere in Lesotho and for the mere fact that he was arrested by the Basothos and Lesotho as a member State of the OAU was to be pressurized to release.

MR VISSER: You see, you've just touched on the crux of the matter. If this had happened, the ANC must have thought that Ngono was in Lesotho? You've just said so yourself?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes. No, not the ANC had though that Mr - for the mere fact that he was arrested by the Basad, he had to pressurize the Basothos to release Ngono. Why even if the Basad had given Ngono to the South Africans, the Basothos being a member State of the OAU would be forced to say, hey brothers, please bring that guy, we are under pressure.

MR VISSER: You went to Lusaka, you told us yesterday, to arrange for this pressure to be placed on the Lesotho Government?

MS BUTHELEZI: It's one of the reasons, the one other reason is that I had to have a break following the reasons that I gave yesterday and I felt that at least with Mbulelo, because he was arrested by the Basothos, at least that one, Mbulelo, at least we can manage to save him.

MR VISSER: And you influenced the ANC leadership to put pressure on the Lesotho Government for him to be deported to Lusaka or to Tanzania?

MS BUTHELEZI: You know, I thought maybe because I was in that situation, but it's normal for the ANC Government whenever the members of the ANC or Umkhonto weSizwe were arrested by the Basothos, that the ANC would call and it has happened for their release and the used the United Nations and the OAU. They have done that on many occasions and I thought this time they would do it.

MR VISSER: So why was it necessary for you, according to your evidence yesterday, to go to Lusaka to arrange for this to happen?

MS BUTHELEZI: No it's because ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Visser, with the greatest of respect.

CHAIRPERSON: I think her evidence is that she informed Mr Tshwete and Chris Hani but Tshwete gave an undertaking that they would put pressure through those organisations. I think that's her evidence yesterday.

MR LAX: And what is more, she didn't go to Lesotho specifically to do that.

MR VISSER: Lusaka.

MR LAX: To Lusaka. She made it clear that she couldn't continue with her mission because of the conditions prevailing because all these people had been arrested. So she went back to Lesotho for a break.

MR VISSER: Lusaka.

MR LAX: Lusaka, sorry.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm sorry if it came across, Ms Buthelezi, though I said that I suggested to you that you only went for that reason, that wasn't what I was suggesting to you but I distinctly heard you say that when you went to Lusaka you used your influence with the ANC to put pressure on the Lesotho Government for him to be deported. Was I wrong in hearing you say that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well to err is human.

MR VISSER: Pardon?

MS BUTHELEZI: To err is human but by the time I arrived in Lusaka they already knew Mbulelo was abducted so they were working on that and when I told him that please, you know, when I was trying to persevere, they say we are working on it, we are in touch with the OAU.

MR VISSER: Yes?

MS BUTHELEZI: We are in touch with the UN.

MR VISSER: And when you say to err is human are you referring to yourself or to me?

MS BUTHELEZI: To you.

MR VISSER: Oh, thank you for assuming me to be human. Thank you. The point is just this and I'm going to argue this and I'm going to give you an opportunity to respond to it if you wish. You and the ANC leadership thought that Mbulelo Ngono was in Lesotho after a time when he wasn't in fact in Lesotho.

MS BUTHELEZI: No, we know that Mbulelo was arrested by the Basothos who later gave them to the South African Police.

MR VISSER: That's the point.

MS BUTHELEZI: But because the mere fact he was arrested by the Basothos, we wanted to pressurise the Basothos to pressurise the South African Government, the South African Police to bring Mbulelo back.

MR VISSER: At page 54 in paragraph 8, I want to finish with you as soon as I can, you refer - sorry, is it paragraph 8? Yes it is, at page 53 in paragraph 8, I beg your pardon. This information which you relate here of what happened in the Transkei - Transkei should be Transkei I take it?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: The Transkei and Fana being killed and so on, all of this is information which you've been told?

MS BUTHELEZI: He was there when Major Mathle was giving the report. They gave me the information, they were in the Transkei. They came back to Lesotho, they gave me information in front of Mr Matuba. Major Mathle gave me the report.

MR VISSER: So the short answer is yes.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you. Who told you about the roadblock? Mr Nthunya?

MS BUTHELEZI: It's not Mr Nthunya, it's Celo.

MR VISSER: It's who?

MS BUTHELEZI: Setshaba Celo.

MR VISSER: I see. That's not somebody whose been referred to by Mr Nthunya in his evidence?

MS BUTHELEZI: No.

MR VISSER: In his evidence, you were here, you heard his evidence?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, it's Shetsaba Selo, the son of the former Minister of Justice in the ...(indistinct) government. Celo Gelaki. Gelaki Celo.

MR VISSER: So that's also something that you were told. Now at page 54 in paragraph 15 ...(intervention)

MS BUTHELEZI: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes?

MS BUTHELEZI: It's something that I was told. Obviously I was not with those people when they went to ...(indistinct) and I was not with them and it's obvious that everybody was told somehow, was informed by somebody.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm not blaming you for that, I'm just trying to distinguish what in this statement is your own knowledge and what is something that you've been told, that's all. I don't know, I wasn't there.

Can we just go to paragraph 15 at page 54? I'd like you to read that sentence and then explain to us what you meant by that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay

"In conclusion, Dirk Coetzee must be questioned regarding this matter. Why has he up to now not have been telling the truth?"

Something like that, why is he not telling the truth? The thing is that sometimes in South Africa a person who received Mr Dirk Coetzee in Lusaka, informed me that he knew about the activities and he knew Dirk Coetzee informed him that my life was in danger.

MR VISSER: In 1987?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, after independence.

MR VISSER: So are you saying that Dirk Coetzee knows something about the incidents in regard to which amnesty application is made here by these applicants?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well the person who told me insinuated that Dirk Coetzee knew, he knew that I was ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: So it's an insinuation? Alright. I just want to place on record that he left Vlakplaas and left the South African Police in December 1981.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay.

MR VISSER: Lastly, I want to ask you about what you said in paragraph 17. I'm sorry, 18. You said it should be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he, that is Jantjie, had the lousiest way of recruiting. Did you mean that when you said that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, I meant it. I mean ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Did you know Mr Jantjie?

MS BUTHELEZI: I didn't know but from the statement, I mean, it was lousy. You go to the person and the person tells you about the problem, from there you recruit the person without knowing a person.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, so that's just a comment on what he says in his amnesty application.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: It's not as if you knew him while you were in Lesotho and knew how he was operating?

MS BUTHELEZI: Ja but as I read his method of operation I found it very lousy.

MR VISSER: Okay, I see and you also found that he used outdated tricks as you put it, is that correct?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes. I just want to ask you one thing which is unclear. There's one paragraph, it's paragraph 12. Perhaps we should just read it. The last sentence of paragraph 11 is

"He is a man who visited Mbulelo and through him, MK cadres and the leadership ..."

and then the sentence seems to go on:

"We were able to communicate with Mbulelo"

Is it correct to say that that 12 should just not have been there?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes it's a mistake.

MR VISSER: Just the 12 should be struck out?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, supposed to be part of paragraph 11.

MR VISSER: That's part of paragraph 11, thank you. In Lesotho, this is my last question to you, in Lesotho, in the short time that you were there, did you realise that members of the Security Branch, the South African Police, came into Lesotho to gather information and do whatever other operations they were doing there?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I was.

MR VISSER: Did you know any of those Security Branch members?

MS BUTHELEZI: As there's a part that I was really interested in and that I was really interested in them, I spoke to them, I knew.

MR VISSER: Yes. Who did you know?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well they used combat names, the other one was J.J. The other one was Matla T, they used to call him Sibanda, the other one was Matlatini and the other one was Vincent.

MR VISSER: I see. Were they from Bloemfontein or from where?

MS BUTHELEZI: Well they claimed that they were from Durban.

MR VISSER: From Durban?

MS BUTHELEZI: And I had many reasons to have been interested in them and that was the mission I was talking about but I'm not going to disclose the details of it.

MR VISSER: I'm not even interested in the details, Ms Buthelezi. Really, I'm not interested in it. You didn't know any of the members of the Security Branch who were working in Lesotho who came from Ladybrand?

MS BUTHELEZI: This might come as a shock. The guy opposite me, the day when J.J. and Ntsizwa and Major Matlakeng, for the first time I saw him, early February, I was from - okay, then I went to Victoria Hotel. Then he was in a car. I went to sit on a bench at the bus stop, waiting for a taxi and I turned. He was sitting like this on his ...(indistinct). He looked at me. I looked in front. I turned, I looked at him. He still maintained the same posture. I turned for the third time and for the third time the taxi came and I left. I did see him and knows it deep down in his heart.

MR VISSER: You're referring to Mr Robertshaw?

MS BUTHELEZI: I don't know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the gentleman in the ...(indistinct)

MS BUTHELEZI: The gentleman over there.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Mr Robertshaw.

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Hopefully that's not me, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you did part of your legal work in Lesotho, it might be.

MR VISSER: You see, the question was really this. I asked you whether you knew any of the members from Ladybrand. You've now said that you've seen Mr Robertshaw in Lesotho, in Maseru, in February 1988?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes and perhaps if the others were here or somebody whom I saw in Lesotho, I could have easily have identified the person.

MR VISSER: Yes. Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, just one issue, Chairperson.

Ms Buthelezi, I just want you to clarify this about the dates you - in your evidence you said that you read about Tax Sejanamane's arrest about June 1987 in the newspapers on the one hand. On the other hand you have given evidence now under cross-examination that you arrived in Lesotho in September 1987?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, that's not the first time I arrived in Lesotho. I arrived in Lesotho as early as 1986 so I was moving between Lesotho and in June 1986 I was in Lesotho. I didn't arrive in Lesotho, I was long in Lesotho.

MR MAPOMA: I see.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now did you know Esther?

MS BUTHELEZI: Esther was introduced to me by David. They were to help me with some furniture. Picking up furniture here and there but we never really had a close relationship.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. When was that when you happened to know Esther?

MS BUTHELEZI: I think in 1986.

MR MAPOMA: Right. Now after June 1987 did you meet with Esther at all?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I think I met her.

MR MAPOMA: Now during your meeting with Esther were you able to find out whether Tax had arrived to Lesotho from the arrest or not?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I asked her about Tax and she was also under the impression that Tax is arrested and that is the only information that she had.

MR MAPOMA: Yes and at that time, is it your evidence that, from what you heard from Esther, Tax was still in Kwa-Kwa as he was arrested in June 1987?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Well, I think it's an opportune time to take a short adjournment for tea and the Committee, Ms Buthelezi, might have some questions to ask when we resume after fifteen minutes. Do you understand that?

MS BUTHELEZI: The Committee might have some questions?

CHAIRPERSON: My members, we may ask you questions.

MS BUTHELEZI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not a given - they may, they may not. But we'll take a fifteen minutes break.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR VISSER: Chairperson, if I may ask you just to look my way before other people start asking questions? There's one

question I forgot to ask Ms Buthelezi, at a convenient time for you, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can do that before the Committee.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Buthelezi, may I remind you that you're still under oath? Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Ms Buthelezi, I lied to you when I said I had the last question for you. This is really the last one. Have you ever heard of a person called Dimakatzo, D-I-M-A-K-A-T-Z-O I think?

BUZISIWE BENEDICTA BUTHELEZI: (s.u.o.) Which Dimakatzo?

MR VISSER: So the answer I take it is that you knew Dimakatzos in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: Dimakatzo Magete?

MR VISSER: No, can I ask you this. Was Esther's name also Dimakatzo?

MS BUTHELEZI: I knew her as Esther.

MR VISSER: You did not know her as Dimakatzo?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I knew her as Esther.

MR VISSER: Chairperson and for the record the reason why I'm asking the question is to be found at page 849 of the record.

849, where the mother of Tax Sejanamane describes his wife's name as Dimakatzo. It's in the middle of the page.

CHAIRPERSON: I just know that Tax's mother spoke of a wife, I can't remember the name.

MR VISSER: Yes, Dimakatzo. She will recall that she gave evidence to say that she attended their wedding in 1982 after which she never saw Tax again.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me, Chairperson. May I just re-examine? From this question, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Ma'am, what was your name in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: My name?

MR MAPOMA: In Lesotho, yes.

MS BUTHELEZI: Nomsa Mamusa.

MR MAPOMA: Was that your name that was used in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And was that your real name?

MS BUTHELEZI: No.

MR LAX: Just repeat the second name for me? Nomsa?

MS BUTHELEZI: Mamusa, it's one and the same thing, the other one is ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mamusa?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Can I finally ask Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Ms Buthelezi, what eventually happened to Ndate Mogatla? You told us that you were asked to be careful to keep away from him. What eventually happened to him?

MS BUTHELEZI: When I left Lesotho, Ndate Mogatla was still in Lesotho and I never really made contact with him at all.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, that was the only clarification, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

Ms Buthelezi, with regard to Esther, Mrs Sejanamane told us and again it's also at page 849 of the transcript, that Esther's family were still looking for her and they don't know where she was so she in fact confirmed that Esther is still missing as far as she's aware. Did Esther have any children?

MS BUTHELEZI: I'm not sure, I've never seen her with a child so I'm not sure whether she has children or not.

MR LAX: Do you know where Esther was living at the time? Do you remember that at all?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I don't know where Esther was living.

MR LAX: Because apparently they were living with her sister ...(inaudible) in Maseru?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes. Yes, she did live with her sister but I ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You confirm that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I confirm that.

MR LAX: Now you raised something in your evidence that - and I can't remember who told you this but there was some concern in Esther's mind when she received the phone call two days before she disappeared?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Who told you that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Mbulelo.

MR LAX: Mbulelo told you that?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And just repeat for us what that concern was about so that I can be clear?

MS BUTHELEZI: You see, what happened is that you remember there was money problems but there was this thing about money and then we ultimately received money from Lesotho. So as Emboli was distributing the money he found out that Nomasonto and Esther are missing and according to Esther's sister, Esther told the sister that Tax phoned two days ago and he said he was going to come and fetch Esther.

MR LAX: Did he say he was going to fetch her or someone else would come and fetch her or what?

MS BUTHELEZI: He said he was going to fetch her.

MR LAX: Okay and as I understood it, your evidence, the concern then was how could he phone if he was in custody in Kwa-Kwa?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes. Yes.

MR LAX: Did I get that correctly?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes because according to my appreciation I thought someone else might phone Esther, you know, pretending to be Tax.

MR LAX: Yes.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: But as it was reported to you, Esther herself was concerned about this?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, she was concerned. I know Esther. I mean you wouldn't meet her and she doesn't say anything about Tax. I know for sure that she dearly loved her husband.

MR LAX: And really, the thrust of all of this is that up until that point in time she hadn't seen Tax?

MS BUTHELEZI: No she hadn't.

MR LAX: Since the time he had disappeared?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes or arrested.

MR LAX: And you were, you said, back in Lesotho from about the middle of September I think you said, of that year '87. If Tax had been released or returned in any way to Lesotho, would you have heard about it?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes I could have heard about it. In fact the first person, although I did not see Tax everyday, but I think had I met Esther, Esther would have told me that Tax is around and apart from Esther, my sources on the ground would have confirmed that Tax is around.

MR LAX: So as far as you were aware he wasn't in Lesotho during that period?

MS BUTHELEZI: No. No, Sir.

MR LAX: Because the applicants say that they abducted him during December?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, he was not abducted in December. He was arrested by the Kwa-Kwa Police and I stand on that one and I think if we can go and get the back copies there is a story about Tax being arrested by the Kwa-Kwa Police. I think you can get that.

MR LAX: Yes, my next question for you was going to be precisely around that. Do you have any recollection about what newspaper that might have been in?

MS BUTHELEZI: I'm not sure but I think it was the Sowetan. I don't know, I think it was the Sowetan, I cannot remember very well but if I told you, you have what do you call these small newspapers? Tabloids? It was a tabloid.

MR LAX: Well there was City Press, there was the Sowetan.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes but it was not, it was a tabloid. The small like newspaper.

MR LAX: Sort of the size of the Citizen or the Sowetan?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, somewhere there, the Citizen, Sowetan, the Guardian, the New National. Remember those days?

MR LAX: Yes.

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, one of those newspapers.

MR LAX: And you say it would have been somewhere in June?

MS BUTHELEZI: Yes, somewhere in June yes. The report of his arrest, I read it in June.

MR LAX: Did Betty work with Emboli in the Cape machinery at all?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, they didn't work together. I said Betty and Emboli as commanders of MK, they had a singular aim that ultimately to bring about - to destroy the then regime but on certain matters, Betty, like the financial matters, logistic matters. Betty and Emboli would meet from time to time.

MR LAX: Yes, the question I'm trying to work at is, would Betty have intimate knowledge of the details of the operations, that Emboli's machinery was likely to be carrying out?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, not details. Maybe a general but not the details. Who, we live where, when and I don't think you'd know that part of the story but ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Why do you say that, that it was - that she wouldn't have such information?

MS BUTHELEZI: I think any operation remains top secret. You'd know that Emboli is a commander of the Cape and that Emboli, not even knowing when, but Emboli is likely to infiltrate people or to instruct people to do this. It's common knowledge for any commander to know but he wouldn't know the details. He wouldn't know the detail.

MR LAX: You see, I can understand that she might know who other MK members were in Lesotho and that those people might be at risk if she was to disappear or be abducted or whatever but would she know about individuals in the Cape machinery who were based in the country as opposed to being in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, she wouldn't know that. She wouldn't know.

MR LAX: Now I just want to be clear about this. Did you receive any information from any sources that Betty was seen meeting with suspicious characters?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I never did.

MR LAX: Did you receive any information that there were policemen, South African policemen or other people purporting to be other MK members, making contact with any of the other cadres in Lesotho?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I never received that.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, how many White members of MK were there in your experience?

MS BUTHELEZI: I knew there was a certain lady who used to operate in Lesotho but - I can describe her but I didn't know her name but I knew there was a certain lady who operated in Lesotho. A White lady.

MR LAX: And male members?

MS BUTHELEZI: During my time I cannot recall any.

MR LAX: You see, the applicants say and one in particular says and he is a White male, he says that he was able to convince Betty that he was an MK members of Lebanese extraction. What would you say to that statement by him?

MS BUTHELEZI: I also met guys who told me that they are of Irish extraction, they belonged to IRA and I knew that was not true, they were just - it's just that ANC or MK as a revolutionary movement would have sympathies towards the IRA, so I thought, you know, it was a means of winning my favour and maybe the same could have happened to Betty.

MR LAX: The thrust of my question is, would you be taken in by such a person claiming to be MK?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.

Ms Buthelezi, you spoke about for instance Mr Tshwete with the disappearance of Ngono, that it would be taken up with the OAU and the UN. When did you firstly brief them about that?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I first communicated with them when I was in Lesotho and then when I went to Lusaka I gave them a full verbal briefing.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's when you were given an assurance that it would be pursued vigorously and you never heard from either Mr Tshwete and the late Mr Hani whether anything fruitful came of it?

MS BUTHELEZI: No because I left Lusaka, I then went to College in Harare.

CHAIRPERSON: But you never heard anything?

MS BUTHELEZI: No, I never heard anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereafter?

MS BUTHELEZI: No. Thank you. Anything arising from the questions, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Nothing, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Buthelezi, you are excused.

MS BUTHELEZI: Thank you Sir.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, I think it would be your turn but may I firstly ask you that you brought up to speed why I ruled that Mr Bubelo, you client, should be called in to give evidence?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. I have been brought up to speed by the Evidence Leader. I have spoken to the legal team also representing the families and the victims. I've also had an opportunity to speak to the legal team representing the applicants. I have consulted with Mr Bubelo. I have tried to bring him up to speed with the relevant matters that are at issue. However, at this stage I think my suggestion would be to the Committee that he simply be sworn in and asked questions. I don't think it's necessary for me to lead him in evidence regarding anything specific.

CHAIRPERSON: If you have been brought up to speed, is he aware of the relevant portions, this record that runs up to almost a thousand pages where he is referred to and I'll tell you that he was mentioned again, I don't remember precisely which date, whether it was the Wednesday or yesterday - I think it was Wednesday, by a witness ...(indistinct). I don't know if you have been brought up to speed about that kind of evidence?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson, no not that specific kind but I believe the essence of the matter that the Committee would like to hear from Mr Bubelo is regarding the incident where photographs, when he was in contact with the family of Mr Ngono subsequent to his disappearance. He has his own recollection regarding those events. He does have a recollection of being in contact with the family and he can deal with that. I would suggest maybe that if other matters were put, we do not have any objection if any further parts of the record will be put to him and then asked for his response to what was said.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will he take the oath? May he rise? What language would you prefer to speak Mr Bubelo?

MR BUBELO: Xhosa.

HAMILTON ZIYUYU BUBELO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, are you going to ask a few questions?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson, I think it will be time effective if the Members of this gathering have pertinent questions to ask to Mr Bubelo start with that because I'll probably cover things that are unimportant as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I will start. I don't know whether it's going to be you, Mr Malindi or Mr Koopedi or Mr Mapoma. Mr Mapoma, I think it would be advisable if you do.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Bubelo, Ngono, what do you know about him?

MR BUBELO: I do not know him especially but I know his mother.

MR LAX: Could we maybe before you do that. Mr Bubelo, what job were you doing in 1990?

MR BUBELO: I was patrolling in the coast line.

MR LAX: Were you a policeman?

MR BUBELO: Yes that is correct, I was a policeman.

MR LAX: What was your rank?

MR BUBELO: I was a warrant officer.

MR LAX: And where were you stationed?

MR BUBELO: I was working at the Sanlam Building at the Security Branch.

MR LAX: How long had you been a policeman at that time, roughly?

MR BUBELO: About 25 years in the service.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Mapoma, if you will continue from there. We would just have a background to the man, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: This Sanlam Building is it situated in Port Elizabeth?

MR BUBELO: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What street in Port Elizabeth?

MR BUBELO: Strand Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

For the record, Chairperson, the mother to Mbulelo is Nancy Ngono.

CHAIRPERSON: But I just heard the witness saying he knows the mother? I don't remember the witness saying he knew her.

MR MAPOMA: I know that Chairperson because we do have in the system of the TRC the names of the mother of Mbulelo Ngono.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. I must thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks, Chairperson.

How did you happen to know Mrs Ngono?

MR BUBELO: We were in the same congregation.

MR MAPOMA: Now did you know anything about her son Mbulelo Ngono?

MR BUBELO: There's nothing much except for the fact that Mrs Ngono approached me to question me about her son's whereabouts who went missing.

MR MAPOMA: When was that when she approached you?

MR BUBELO: I cannot remember the date but I think it was between 1987 up until 1990 but I cannot remember the exact year or date but as the people who used to meet in church from time to time, everyday she would ask me about her son who went missing in Lesotho.

MR MAPOMA: Now when those enquiries were made by her to you, is there any information that you supplied to her?

MR BUBELO: There was nothing much except for the fact that I realised that this was hurting her and I decided to make an investigation to see in our office and to check information about her son.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, what did you get in your office?

MR BUBELO: On one day in the filing office there is a table that is long where they normally put telex and photos of the people who were in the outside countries.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, what did you get?

MR BUBELO: When I looked through I saw the name Mbulelo. I took the photo and the file and I went straight to Mrs Ngono's place to ask her whether that was the son.

MR MAPOMA: You say you took the file, the photo together with the file. Was there any file concerning Mbulelo Ngono?

MR BUBELO: No, it was just a short telex stating that he was arrested in the Free State.

MR MAPOMA: Then what file did you take?

MR BUBELO: It was a file with Mbulelo's name and the photo and the telex that was going to be later filed in the main files that were kept in the strongroom.

MR MAPOMA: Right, then you went to meet with Mrs Ngono. Did you meet her actually?

MR BUBELO: Yes I found her in the house.

MR MAPOMA: Who was she with in the house?

MR BUBELO: She was all alone, the children came later on. They found us in the house.

MR MAPOMA: Now I suppose you had some conversation with her?

MR BUBELO: That is correct, I conversed with her asking her if that was the son that she was looking for. I told her that the information is to the effect that he is arrested in the Free State but I was prepared to investigate further and I told her that I had to take this information back to the office before I was caught.

MR MAPOMA: This telex you are talking about. Did it tell when he was arrested?

MR BUBELO: No.

MR MAPOMA: And then when she saw the photo, did she confirm that to be her son?

MR BUBELO: Yes, she confirmed that because this photo was extracted from a big album where all the people whose photos were kept, people who were in exile.

MR MAPOMA: So let me be more precise on this. This photo, was he the only person on the photo, the person you're talking about?

MR BUBELO: Yes, it was a half photo.

MR MAPOMA: And then she positively identified that person in that photo as her son, Mbulelo?

MR BUBELO: Yes, she identified him as her son Mbulelo.

MR MAPOMA: Was there any scar on the photo?

CHAIRPERSON: On the face.

MR MAPOMA: On the face of the photo? Thank you Chairperson.

MR BUBELO: I did not notice any scar.

MR MAPOMA: Is there any information you gave to her - you said from the telex he was arrested in the Free State?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you tell her where Mbulelo Ngono was at the time?

MR BUBELO: I told her that he was in the Free State, that's what was written in Afrikaans in that telex.

MR MAPOMA: I'll tell you what, there is evidence here to the effect that the mother of Mbulelo told her children, Tobega Ngono in particular, that you said to her mother that Mbulelo is in Transvaal at the time. What is your comment to that?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Mapoma. That was later corrected to be Transvaal.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I'm saying Transvaal.

MR LAX: I thought you said Transkei, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Transvaal. He said that.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

MR BUBELO: I mentioned the Free State.

MR MAPOMA: Did you have any knowledge at all that he was in the Transvaal?

MR BUBELO: No, not at all.

MR MAPOMA: Then what became of that photo?

MR BUBELO: I took it back to the office because I was afraid of being caught because they would be taken off for a certain period and they would wait for a specific person to file them.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Bubelo. Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Bubelo, the photo that you saw did it look to you like the photo that gets taken by the Police when they detain someone or arrest someone or did it look like a photo that may have been taken under different circumstances?

MR BUBELO: The photos that were in that album they are linked with the Security Branch and the Lesotho Police. If the Police, the Security Branch, is asking for a specific person and then the Police outside the borders will bring such photos. That was the kind of a photograph.

MR MALINDI: Tobega Ngono, that is the daughter of Mrs Ngono, testified that when you arrived you prepared to speak to Mrs Ngono in the absence of her children but your evidence is that the children arrived later. Are you able to clarify that?

MR BUBELO: Yes I can explain that. When they came in I hid the photo because I did not want them to see the photograph.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Visser, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Bubelo, you placed the time when this occurred from 1987 to 1990. Can't you be more specific about the year in which this occurred?

MR BUBELO: I cannot say for sure because I was not working in that department. If I was working there I could have been able to say the exact date, the month and so on.

MR VISSER: Do you have reason to differ from the evidence of other witnesses here that it took place in 1990 or are you prepared to accept that it could have been in that year?

MR BUBELO: I've already stated that I was not working in that department, I was just sympathising with Mrs Ngono as a member of my congregation and I felt her pain. As a Christian you have to help another Christian.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question to you is that we've got evidence that when you showed the photograph to the mother of Mbulelo, it was during 1990 because you said it could have been from 1987. The question to you is that would you accept that it could have been during 1990?

MR BUBELO: Let me correct this date from 1987 to 1990. This photo was released in 1990 and since her son went missing she was always complaining about her son so I am actually counting the years which she had been complaining to me about her son. I think this is the pain that she endured from 1987 up until 1990.

MR VISSER: Alright. This telex and the photograph which you discovered at the Sanlam Building in Port Elizabeth. Did you find that on a table by coincidence when you went there to look for a file or did you find it in a filing cabinet? What is the position?

MR BUBELO: I said initially in the strongroom there is a long table like one of these. They normally put the files there and the photos and then the filing clerk would come and take the file and the photograph and file them in the strongroom. I saw it on this table that was in front of the strongroom.

MR VISSER: Would that table contain documentation that had just come in to the Sanlam Centre?

MR BUBELO: That is correct, that was a secret place. I went there because I knew that the person in charge of that room was not there. He or she had opened the room and he left for the shops and I ran into the office to get this information to help Mrs Ngono.

MR VISSER: The point is that I'm trying to establish from your evidence, Mr Bubelo, is would you say that because you found it on the table it was a current file, something that had just come in that was going to be worked with, this telex and the photograph?

MR BUBELO: Sir, I indicated that many files were in the strongroom. This particular file was taken with the photograph and the telex because it was about to be taken inside the strongroom.

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't understood the question. What Mr Visser is trying to ask you is, is it possible that because the file and the telex and the photograph were on the table, that this was new information that had recently come that was waiting to be filed?

MR BUBELO: I can say so, I can say it was a current information or old information that was waiting to be filed.

MR LAX: So you're saying it was current or old but it was just simply waiting to be filed? What are you saying? Or don't you know?

MR BUBELO: If I had seen the date I would be able to say it was new information but all I can say now is I do not know.

MR VISSER: Thank you Commissioner Lax. Can you just tell us from your recollection, were there many files lying on that table or were there a few files lying on the table when you went in there?

MR BUBELO: There were a few files.

MR VISSER: A few. And when you went in there in the first place, one suspects that you didn't think you were going to find a file on that table, did you?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: So when you went into that room was it your intention to go and look in the strongroom for the file on Mr Ngono?

MR BUBELO: No one was allowed access to the strongroom, there was only one person who had access and keys to the strongroom. There was a wire gate that you would see through that there were files on the table and the gate was open and I went through the gate to check the files on the table.

MR VISSER: And just by coincidence this file was there?

MR BUBELO: Yes, fortunately I found the file.

MR VISSER: You did not ask for the assistance of the person in charge of the files to pull out this file for you, did you?

MR BUBELO: That would be very dangerous, extremely dangerous to us for that favour and it would be even worse if it would be discovered later that a person was not working in that department was found in that office.

MR VISSER: You said that you were stationed at this building where the Security Branch was stationed. Did I understand you correctly?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you a member of the Security Branch?

MR BUBELO: Yes, I made mention of that.

MR VISSER: And are you still working today?

MR BUBELO: I retired due to ill health seven years ago.

MR VISSER: Alright. In the security branch did you know a person by the name of Mr Deon Niewoudt, in Port Elizabeth?

MR BUBELO: Yes I know him.

MR VISSER: Did you at a certain point make a statement regarding Mr Niewoudt's involvement in the Motherwell case?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And in that statement, to cut a long story short, did you in fact finger Mr Niewoudt as one of the persons that was involved in the Motherwell incident?

MR BUBELO: I had a right to identify him because he was denying what he had done.

MR VISSER: Yes and in a statement you said that he was in fact involved in the Motherwell incident, is that correct?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you know whether or have you heard whether Mrs Tobega, Mrs Nancy Tobega I'm told her name is, well let me ask you that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, not Nancy Tobega, Tobega is the daughter of Nancy.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, Ngono. Thank you Chairperson. Comes with age I think.

By what name did you know Mr Ngono, the mother of Mbulelo?

MR BUBELO: I used to refer her as the mother of the twins.

MR VISSER: Did you know her by the name of Nancy?

MR BUBELO: Yes I knew that name but I used to refer to her as the mother of the twins and she would also refer to me as the father of the twins.

MR VISSER: Well I'm not going to ask you how that works but what I will ask you is this, have you ever heard that she was going to be charged or was charged for sympathising or assisting MK members?

MR BUBELO: I never heard that. I would be able to say something if I knew anything about it.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, can we be given an indication as to the relevance of these questions to this incident?

MR VISSER: Well the relevance is quite obvious, Chairperson. If he knew about it, he might be able to give us the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. Let me rather explain this to you, this question to you as follows. Were you aware that there was ever a case where Mbulelo Ngono was going to be used as a State witness against his mother, the mother of the twins?

MR BUBELO: No, I do not know that.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Obviously, Mr van der Merwe, you've got no re-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson, maybe just to assist the Committee regarding Mr Bubelo's work. I would just like to make something clear so the people can understand in what capacity he worked at the Security Branch and I think it is relevant.

Mr Bubelo, when you worked at the Security Branch, you were tasked with doing patrols which they referred to as border patrols?

MR BUBELO: That is correct but at the seaside.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That's right, you were patrolling the seaside in the Eastern Cape or allocated a certain area on the seaside?

MR BUBELO: Yes, from Port Alfred up to Mossel Bay.

CHAIRPERSON: So that people don't get into the sea or come out of the sea?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Watching the submarines, Mr Chairperson.

And Mr Bubelo, then in that capacity you were never used as a field worker that worked in the townships or with tracing of insurgents or anything like that, is that correct?

MR BUBELO: No, that was not within my duties.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, any questions to the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question, Mr Chairperson. Maybe trying to clarify the question of Transvaal.

Mr Bubelo, as the person who has worked for quite some time at Port Alfred or around those areas, the ordinary people of the Eastern Cape, when referring to the other provinces, did they make a clear distinction between for example Free State and Transvaal. I'll tell you why I'm asking you that question. I know for a fact that the people of Kwa-Zulu Natal, whoever comes from Pretoria, Johannesburg or Witbank, they say you are coming from Josie. Now I just want to find out whether it was not the same with your people referring to the person from other provinces, whether you are from Free State or Transvaal, they just say you are from Transvaal.

MR BUBELO: No, as far as I'm concerned the person who is from the Free State, you would be told about the person or the person will tell you and you would be clear that this person is coming from the Free State, Bloemfontein or Welkom or the surrounding areas. If a person is coming from Gauteng you know that that person coming from Johannesburg. Yes, there are people who would say they are coming from the Transvaal but you wouldn't know what part of the Transvaal the person is talking about.

MR SIBANYONI: So there was a clear distinction between Free State and Transvaal?

MR BUBELO: According to what was written on the file.

MR SIBANYONI: No, no, I'm saying the ordinary people, the person in the street, not necessarily you people who were working in offices, working for the Police and the like?

MR BUBELO: This is a difficult question. If you are talking about the person in the street, I cannot comment about that. Let me put it that way.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

Mr Bubelo, this photograph that was taken, that was there with the file, did it have any indication on it when it may have been taken?

MR BUBELO: No, there was just a number on the photo.

MR LAX: A number? And what would that number correspond to?

MR BUBELO: It was written as 2/11 in the middle of the photograph by the chest of the person on the photo.

MR LAX: The way you indicated with your hand was as if somebody was holding something with a number written on it across their chest?

MR BUBELO: I cannot say because it was a half photo and the number was placed on the chest. I'm not sure if ...(inaudible)

MR LAX: ...(inaudible) to this sort of thing. I've seen hundreds of photograph like that where Police arrest somebody and the write a number on it and they make the person stand with the number like that and they take a photograph of them and that you usually only see the top part of the chest and the number and the face. Is that the kind of photograph you saw?

MR BUBELO: That is correct, Sir.

MR LAX: It could therefore seem that it's the photograph that was probably taken on his arrest?

MR BUBELO: I cannot be certain about that.

MR LAX: Yes. You say you didn't see a scar on the face of that person. Well you don't recall that standing out in your memory?

MR BUBELO: No, I do not recall that.

MR LAX: So there may have been a scar, you just don't remember it?

MR BUBELO: No, I cannot remember that.

MR LAX: Yes. Now the file that was there, was there anything else in that file?

MR BUBELO: No.

MR LAX: Now you said that you took that file back and you were going to make further enquiries. Did you follow up anything further?

MR BUBELO: I couldn't go on with the investigation. When I was about to do that I took ill and I couldn't go back to work up until my retirement in 1993.

MR LAX: Now I want you to think carefully about the next question I'm going to ask you. Do you have - when you saw this photograph and this file and this telex, what was your impression about the person, about all of this, about all this related to?

MR BUBELO: The first thing that came to my mind was Mrs Ngono, a person that I knew very well from my congregation who was always crying for help, wanting to know the whereabouts her son. All the time I would think of Mrs Ngono and I felt the pain because I was also a parent and I know how it feels so I decided to take the photo and enquire because I did not know her son.

MR LAX: Did Mrs Ngono ever tell you after that - well, let me ask you this first, did you see her again after that incident where you showed her the photograph?

MR BUBELO: No, I couldn't see her again thereafter, hence I'm saying I took ill, I have heart ailment so I couldn't see her again thereafter.

MR LAX: I'm not saying in your professional capacity. Did you meet her again in church or things of that nature?

MR BUBELO: Yes, I saw her. We had a big church service but I couldn't talk to her.

MR LAX: Did you ever find out from her whether she had any more information or had ever located her son up until the time that she passed away?

MR BUBELO: No, except for the fact that I decided to advise her to talk to Mr Majatina to investigate about her child.

MR LAX: And he is an attorney in Port Elizabeth.

MR BUBELO: Yes he is now late, he used to be a lawyer in Port Elizabeth.

MR LAX: Yes, the daughter told us about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bubelo, this photograph, if I was following what you are saying is that you took it back to the file, did I hear you correctly?

MR BUBELO: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We have evidence that was given Wednesday by one Ms Lindelwe Mabece who was girlfriend to Mbulelo Ngono, says the family called her and when she got to Port Elizabeth they showed you this photo and she could see the scar just above the eyebrow and she recognized Mbulelo as well. Are you certain that you took the photograph with?

MR BUBELO: Yes I took it back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you perhaps make a copy of that photograph and left it with the family?

MR BUBELO: I cannot be certain about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a possibility that that could have happened?

MR BUBELO: What possibility?

CHAIRPERSON: A photocopy of the photograph?

MR BUBELO: My intention was to confirm with her about the photo. I had no other intention except for showing her the photo and confirming that that was her son.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you see I have to be absolutely satisfied because there was no hesitation from Ms Mabece that during 1990 when she visited the Ngono family, his mother or her prospective mother-in-law showed her a photo which she confirmed was that of Mbulelo. I must be absolutely certain that because it wouldn't appear that she did not hesitate. Because what she said further was that the last time Mbulelo was taken and she was present, she was also taken by the Lesotho Police, Mbulelo had no scar on his face?

MR BUBELO: I know nothing about that, I'm only testifying about something that I know.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't do it that's why I'm giving a background to what I'm asking you about, that couldn't you or don't you remember that when you took the photograph and the file to the Ngono's you could have made a copy of the photograph of Mbulelo?

MR BUBELO: No, I cannot recall doing that.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot recall when you actually went to the Ngono's do you?

MR BUBELO: Yes I do remember responding to a call by Mrs Ngono, that's what I've mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Here my question was probably inelegant. I wanted to say the year you went to the Ngono's with the file because I'm asking you this because the daughter, Tobega Ngono, spoke of 1990 and Ms Lindelwe Mabece also spoke of 1990, that it was in 1990. Could it have been 1990 when you eventually saw this file and took it to the Ngono's?

MR BUBELO: It could be possible. I would visit for a different purpose, I would visit the family for a different purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, we are talking about this file. Let's confine ourselves to the file. What I'm saying to you is that Ms Tobega Ngono, the daughter of Mrs Ngono said when you got to their home it was around 1990, we don't have a precise date and month and Ms Lindelwe Mabece testified for us on Wednesday that she was also called in during 1990 when she was shown this photograph. So I'm saying to you if they say 1990 could you dispute that or don't you recall when you actually traced the file and went to the Ngono's?

MR BUBELO: I cannot dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you mentioned the date from about 1987, are you absolutely sure that when you were first approached by Mrs Ngono about the disappearance of her son Mbulelo, it was during that time that it started in 1987? Are you absolutely certain about that?

MR BUBELO: I'm saying in 1987 Mrs Ngono kept on telling me about her missing son up until 1988, '89 and '90.

CHAIRPERSON: You did no read this telex?

MR BUBELO: No, I just looked at the bottom part of the telex where it was mentioned that he was arrested in the Free State.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you show the telex to Mrs Ngono?

MR BUBELO: I told her that her son was arrested in the Free State and she did not read that.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, I'm looking at this and you are talking of a man like yourself who is working with the Security Branch and you have heard Mrs Ngono moaning for a long time. You don't look at the telex closely to give her further information other than that her son has been arrested in the Free State? Can you say what sort of assistance you are talking about when you don't look at the information and to be of assistance to her?

MR BUBELO: My intention was to advise Mrs Ngono to go to a legal, expect to help her because we were working under very oppressive conditions.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm aware of that but you were able, under those oppressive conditions, to take the file and the telex and go to the Ngono's. I say why didn't you read the telex to see precisely what the telex says so that you could be of assistance to Mrs Ngono about the disappearance or the arrest of her son?

MR BUBELO: I do not know why I did not read that telex but my intention was to get more information. Except for the telex, there was just a short message on the telex. I wanted to get more information in order to be able to give her full information because I was also thinking that this gentleman would come and discover there was a missing file on the table.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bubelo. Anything arising from the questions from the panel?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, after I had finished asking questions my learned friend Mr Francois van der Merwe passed to us a letter of the Amnesty Committee dated the 6th December 2000 directed to him and attached to that letter is an extract of the testimony of Mrs Ngono for the Human Rights Violations Committee and the reason why I now mention this is that there are things here that seem to clarify some of the issues and perhaps I should just read it and ask Mr Bubelo whether he has comment on that. She starts off by saying, Chairperson - I just received it this very moment so no copies are available. She speaks of having spoken to two policemen and then she comes to Mr Bubelo and she says this

"He is one who said to me when I asked for help from him if he knew anything about my son. Then he said "which one?" and I called him to my house and he went. We are in the same church, I think that softened him a bit so I said Mr Bobegie ..."

she calls him Bobegie, Chairperson,

CHAIRPERSON: I'll probably say take it as Mr Bubelo because if you can look at the transcript, I don't know if you looked at it, you are called Mr Bizos.

MR VISSER: Which transcript is this, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: The one we are presently dealing with. "Then Mr Bizos asked the question" when it was supposed to be you.

MR VISSER: I haven't got that part of the transcript here but anyway. So we'll assume it's Mr Bubelo, Chairperson.

"So I said Mr Bubelo, the reason I called you, I want you to tell me if you know anything about my son."

He said "I'll come back tomorrow morning."

He left and he came back. He had a photo.

He said: "Is this him?" I said "Yes, where is he?" He said: "He is in the Free State". "Is he alive?" I asked. He said "No, I don't know", that was his answer. But this file I got and in this file it is said that he was arrested in the Free State, that's what is written in this file."

Then the next page goes on to say:

"But I will try to make a means for you to get a copy of this photo and all the contents of this file and then I'll give it to you."

Apparently, Chairperson, she's telling now what Mr Bubelo would have then said and she says:

"I don't care whatever happens to my because I really sympathise with you." So I said "That's good, I will be very happy." However, I think he chickened out because he never did that, he never brought those copies."

Mr Finka: "Is that in 1990 now?"

Mrs Ngono: "Yes."

And then it goes on but I thought those were the relevant portions, Chairperson. I don't know whether you want to inspect this document?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'll hand it up to you.

CHAIRPERSON: About Mr Bizos you can have regard to page 865 of the transcript that we have.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes I see that Chairperson. Well I'll have to make my apologies to Mr Bizos if this question does not fall into his liking.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you were working hand in hand that there's some questions you forgot to say "I am Mr Visser" and then you put you as you are from Mr Bizos. Mr Mapoma do you have copies for us or should we ask Mr Japtha to make copies for everybody?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, we'll have to make an arrangement for copies to be made. I don't have extra copies.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Evidence Leader never even advised you of what they sent?

MR MAPOMA: The Evidence Analyst.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, analyst, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Yes when he did advise me that he has sent extra of the transcript of Mrs Ngono but I did not see it.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Japtha, may we ask you just to make copies starting with A and I think other people would be interested. Six and we would mark it J. I think that's how the numbers go. I don't like I. So is that all? Nothing arising from what we asked Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, except that you might, somebody might wish to ask Mr Bubelo now in the light of this new exhibit that's going to be handed in perhaps Exhibit J I suppose?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't like I.

MR VISSER: We don't, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't like I so it would be J.

MR VISSER: We don't like I either. Chairperson, about the indication which Mrs Ngono gave that there were more documents in this thing, not just the photograph. I don't know whether you want to put the question to him or whether I should?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can take a short adjournment, that way you've got a copy and put to Mr Bubelo exactly what is written there. Thank you, we'll take a short adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bubelo, may I just remind you that you are still under oath, you may still be asked questions. Do you understand that?

HAMILTON ZIYUYU BUBELO: (s.u.o.) Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Bubelo, just arising out of annexure J or Exhibit J and just to clarify this. If one looks at the bottom of the first page next to the mark 30, line 30, Mrs Ngono then says

"But I will try and make a means ..."

and she is quoting you now, you see?

"But I will try and make a means for you to get a copy of this file and all the contents of this file."

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, copy of this photo.

MR LAX: Sorry

"Of this photo and all the contents of this file and then I'll give it to you."

What was all the contents of the file as far as you can remember?

MR BUBELO: I have said initially there was a telex and it was just a short message. There were no further details in the file, it was a brown paper. The real file was in the strongroom. This was just a smaller file that was going to contain the telex and then it would be later taken to the main file.

MR LAX: Are you aware that there was a main file?

MR BUBELO: Yes I know that because all the files that would be put on the smaller tables, they were being prepared to be taken to the filing strongroom, that is why they were placed on that table. My intention was to get a file from the strongroom for Mrs Ngono and was prepared to go at all lengths to try and get that file but unfortunately I took ill.

MR LAX: Mr Bubelo, as a security policeman you would know that if somebody in the nature of Mr Ngono who had gone into exile who had came from your area, there was bound to be a file on him in your district. That's a matter of logic and common practice, isn't it?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR LAX: So from that we can safely assume there must have been a file in the strongroom on him to which this new information or other information, let's call it whatever you like, would have likely been added into the file?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you're unable to assist us as to when it was likely that Mr Ngono was actually arrested in the Free State, it could have been any time up until the time you saw the telex?

MR BUBELO: My duties had nothing to do with detained people in places like Free State and Transvaal. I have mentioned that I was working at the seaside but I was just responding to Mrs Ngono's call and that was the only time that I had to do whatever I did.

MR LAX: Yes, the other thing that I just want to ask you is this, is it's clear from what she said that you weren't sure whether he was alive or not?

MR BUBELO: Yes, I had no knowledge.

MR LAX: So in your mind the possibility existed that he might also be dead?

MR BUBELO: I cannot think along those minds.

CHAIRPERSON: When you read the telex what impressions did you get when they said he's arrested in the Free State? Did it give you the impression that this man is still alive? That is Mbulelo?

MR BUBELO: Being arrested and a person whose dead those are two things. If it mentioned that he was arrested in the Free State I couldn't think beyond that.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously a dead man can't be arrested.

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR LAX: Well you see, the reason why I asked you that question was at about line 23 she asks you

"Where is he?"

He said "He is in the Free State"

"Is he alive?" I asked.

He said "No, I don't know." That was his answer.

MR BUBELO: I was telling her about what was contained in the telex. That is why I said I did not know, I just read that he was arrested in the Free State so I wouldn't know whether he was alive or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I have this concern if I may just interrupt you Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Sure, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that you see, like I said initially to you, asked you initially, that Mrs Ngono was really worried about her son and you come across this telex. You can only say to her he was arrested in the Free State, you don't know whether he is alive or not but you had an opportunity to look at this telex and even to go back to her and you haven't looked at the telex that he was arrested and therefore he's no longer alive or he is detained at X place in the Free State? Where did that telex come from?

MR BUBELO: Maybe it was coming from the Free State because it made mention of the fact that he was arrested in the Free State, nothing else was explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it indicate that it was from perhaps Ladybrand? The telex? Or Bloemfontein? Did it indicate?

MR BUBELO: No, I know nothing about that but I only saw Free State.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I can understand your concern that the strongroom nobody could go in there who is not allowed to but you had at least this opportunity to even venture against the risk, great risk to yourself that you looked at it because you said, she says here you said

"I don't care, whatever happens to me because I really sympathise with you"

So you would go to great risks or lengths to assist this lady, Mr Ngono?

MR BUBELO: That is true, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you think a person saying I don't know about my child, it suffices only to say your child, according to a telex, was arrested in the Free State? Because why Mrs Ngono wanted to find out and if she had to go to the Free State, we all know it's a large area, Province, that's not assistance. Would it be assistance?

MR BUBELO: That is the reason why I took the file back to the office with the intention of getting the main file because I thought that the message was explained further in the main file so I was prepared to check it out for her but unfortunately I took ill.

MR LAX: Mr Bubelo, you see what puzzles me about your answer that you apparently gave to Mrs Ngono is this. If you had seen this telex and it was a recent telex saying the man had recently been arrested, there would have been no doubt in your mind that he was alive? However, if it was a telex saying the man had been arrested at some point prior to that, to some time earlier, then there would be doubt in your mind and that's why you couldn't give a positive answer. Now we know that Ngono was actually detained. He was abducted and held by the Ladybrand Police during either December 1987 or alternatively, if the applicants are wrong and other people are right, March 1988. If this report was referring to that then you would be in some doubt as to whether he was still alive because it was some time prior to that and that would explain why you couldn't give a straight answer to whether he was alive or not. Do you understand what I'm saying?

MR BUBELO: I understand, Sir. It was for the first time that I came across some correspondence concerning Ngono. I knew that there were files but the one that mentioned specifically Ngono's name, it was for the first time.

MR LAX: But the thrust of what I'm suggesting to you is that the reason why you didn't have certainty in your mind is that the arrest probably took place the year or two earlier and therefore you weren't in a position to confirm if at that point in time he was still alive or not because it was a report of something that had happened previously.

MR BUBELO: I do not know, Sir.

MR LAX: Is there any other reason that you could give us or an explanation that could give us why you were uncertain from your answer as to whether he was still alive?

MR BUBELO: I know nothing about him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say this was on the table, you meant to get the whole file, am I understanding you to say this telex that had just come in was fresh information to be filed in the main file?

MR BUBELO: That is correct.

MR LAX: Just so we're clear about this, when we say fresh information, it was fresh to Port Elizabeth. It may not have been fresh from the origin of where it came?

MR BUBELO: I can say so, I can say it was fresh in Port Elizabeth because I had not seen anything before, I do not know what was in the main file.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bubelo. Any questions arising from what we asked, Mr Visser?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Yes thank you, Chairperson, just one.

Please say if you can't answer this question. If a person that the Security Branch would be keeping a file on died, what would happen to the file. Would they continue keeping the file or what would happen? Do you know?

MR BUBELO: I bear no knowledge concerning that because I was not working with the files.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Anything Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: One or two questions, Chairperson, with your permission.

Mr Bubelo, if I understood you very well, you did not see a date on this telex or if you did see it you have forgotten what date it had on it?

MR BUBELO: I made mention of it, I did not take note of the date I just saw where it was written that he was arrested in the Free State because Mrs Ngono wanted to know where her son was. I did not look at the date.

MR MALINDI: And the part that you read on the telex you are not able to say, you are not able to give the Committee the actual words of what was written there, is it not so?

MR BUBELO: It was written in Afrikaans that he was arrested in the Free State.

MR MALINDI: And from what you read you could not tell whether it was a recent arrest or an old arrest?

MR BUBELO: The telex did not mention such details, more especially if they are giving information about a specific person. That it seems more urgent so it was an information that had to be sent urgently to a particular station.

MR MALINDI: And I'm sure this may have been covered already. It also could mean that it was information from Ladybrand arriving in Port Elizabeth and you can't say how long it took from Ladybrand to read Port Elizabeth?

MR BUBELO: I do not know, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I appreciate the import of your question after your colleague has advised me. Take it as.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

MR LAX: Sorry, just one last thing that occurred to me? This telex, did it give the name of the person that it referred to who had been arrested in the Free State?

MR BUBELO: It said "Mbulelo Ngono, arrested in the Free State", that's all.

MR LAX: It didn't say MK, KK or some other name of that description?

MR BUBELO: There were other things that were written in that telex but I did not take note of.

MR LAX: But you are certain Mbulelo Ngono was on the telex? Or you see, I'm trying to understand whether you made that inference because of the photograph and the telex being together or whether the name was actually there?

MR BUBELO: I assumed that since there was his photo on the table and I just assumed that even the names should be on the telex.

MR LAX: But you can't tell us for sure?

MR BUBELO: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Bubelo. You are excused.

MR BUBELO: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I think it brings us to the conclusion of the formal evidence and of the witnesses I had caused to be subpoenaed. Mr van der Merwe, I don't think you have greater interest in the arguments that will be profiled?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, Mr Chairperson, no. I was simply here to assist Mr Bubelo to assist the Amnesty Committee to maybe through some light on issues which were needed some enlightenment. I have no submission to make to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are excused. You may leave if you so leave.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Or you may listen to the intricate and interesting arguments you may sit in as well.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I've heard a couple of those in the last couple of years so I will appreciate if I may be excused. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm indebted to you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are you ready?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, in regard to the question of argument, I have received an indication that some of the members of the staff wish to depart by air early this afternoon, half past two, 3 o'clock or so. I've also been informed by my attorney that it was indicated to him that my opponents on the other side of the room all preferred rather to do their argument by way of written argument instead of oral argument. Certainly I can do part of the oral argument. I couldn't claim to be able to do justice within an hour or so after 13 days of a hearing. But Chairperson, why I'm mentioning this is perhaps you could give an indication of what your views are on the matter because if some of us are going to be allowed to do written argument then I would submit that we should all do so.

CHAIRPERSON: It wouldn't to me before I address your opponents, not make sense to me that I should hear partly written and partly oral argument, it wouldn't make sense to me because I would want to hear, or if I was to read everything at the same time it would make better sense to me.

MR VISSER: Yes, I would think so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask the. Mr Malindi, what is your position?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, we are in your hands. Obviously it would be to us a little bit of good if we were to adjourn for an hour to finalise our argument in order to present it orally. If the Committee prefers to hear us today we will do so. It's a question of preference but our preferences must not hold this process and there are also other difficulties that if we are to submit written submissions I doubt if that will be achievable this year. Some of us are leaving by the 15th, 16th December. So we are in your hands, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I will tell you what is my greatest concern, gentlemen, that my stay with the TRC is limited. I'm envious to hear people, that they are leaving, I will be working. From here I'm going to the high court from the 22nd of this month up to the 5th January, then I have two weeks break, then I have to go to my division in Pretoria to sit permanently on the bench so you can see the constraints that when I eventually leave I must have written all my judgements as the TRC so I'm also under tremendous pressure. You can recall that I have five of your judgements outstanding, Mr Visser and you can appreciate what it means to me. So that's my position because as is we missed out because we wanted to finish this matter because our colleagues are sitting as we talk in Cape Town, busy with writing the report and this is need urgently so that when I leave everything I did must be done. That is the greatest difficulty because I'm amenable but we've got problems that if, for instance, we would leave on the 15th, Mr Malindi, it's going to take us quite some time before I get any heads of argument. There may even arise...(inaudible) which is going to create problems. That is my greatest difficulty.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, if I may? Whether or not this will address your problems I don't know. We were not thinking of a long period of time. We were thinking if written is to be decided upon to let you have it next week and in fact as early as in next week as possible from our side. We would also submit that the other representatives should do the same. There's no reason, if we were going to be able and willing to argue this afternoon, why we shouldn't be able to put those thoughts on paper and let you have it by Wednesday, Thursday next week or Friday at the latest. That's the first thing. The only alternative that I could suggest to you, Chairperson, seeing that today is obviously out of the question, is that we come back on Monday or we congregate somewhere on Monday and you hear oral argument if it's possible to arrange that. We've got no problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: That's enticing. What is your response Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I can't promise Monday, I can promise Thursday for sure that we can submit our written heads of argument but it may also necessary maybe to combine written and oral. Maybe if there is time this afternoon, maybe we should present oral argument, it may even help to define the issues that will be included in the written submissions. Then the written submissions would really be supplementary heads. If we can argue this afternoon and then make supplementary written heads to be submitted by Thursday, my side will be happy with that.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Mr Visser's suggestion that if at all possible we congregate here on Monday?

MR MALINDI: Monday is difficult for me, Chairperson, I have a prior arrangement, I have an all day consultation in another matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the other one you are suggesting that we do so within an hour. We've got constraints about Mr Lax, there's no flight available tomorrow.

Okay, let's adjourn for ten minutes because we are trying to see if we can't fly him somewhere else and he drives home. That's the commitment he has made. Then probably we could say other questions may be posed and we make an undertaking that if questions are posed and you want to think about some of those questions then you give us supplementary heads by Friday the 15th.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, Chairperson, we go first.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, we obviously want to inconvenience Mr Lax. It is a suggestion and as I said we are in your hands. My side, we make an undertaking that Monday definitely I am not available and Wednesday I'm not available but Tuesday possibly and then Thursday for sure.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I was just robust to Mr Lax, that he must be accommodative and divert.

MR LAX: I'm happy to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: He is bending under my robustness.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, if I may be allowed to add something? Before we do kick Mr Lax off the aircraft that he wants to take home, mustn't we just try to establish what kind of time frame we're talking about for oral argument? I can tell you now, speaking for myself, I have found this a very difficult application. There are a large number of issues and contradictions and argument in this matter is not going to be short in the sense of an half and hour or an hour on my part. If I start, Chairperson, I may well be before five o'clock this afternoon. I mean we have to face that reality and this is an important matter, Chairperson, for the reasons which I've mentioned and to the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Which days are you free, Mr Malindi?

MR LAX: What days are you free?

CHAIRPERSON: What days are you free?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I can make myself available on Tuesday and Thursday and/or Thursday.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's do it this way. Let me firstly establish from Mr Japtha whether he can get a venue around Gauteng for Tuesday, that we just deal with argument on Tuesday, then I think everybody will have an opportunity to go through the transcript and the fresh evidence we heard from Wednesday really and present us with full argument. I think, gentlemen, you should appreciate my position as well and that tomorrow you can't say to me you have let us down, you left the amnesty process without giving judgement and Mr Robertshaw wants to get married. He is held up by this process.

Okay, let's adjourn just for a short period and let's get from Mr Japtha whether we could have a venue because it's a matter of a telephone call away. Okay, give us ten minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I should firstly express my indebtedness to the legal representatives who wish to deal with this matter as expeditiously as possible. However, I am conscious that this was not a simple matter, that which I would take that people could be ready with argument within a short space of time and I think it would be just and equitable that the legal representatives - I don't want to refer to you as people and be distant from me, that everybody gets ample opportunity to really dissect, analyze and give us real assistance for us to be able to come with a judgement in this matter. That I should be heard to complain about my other duties, it's not reason enough because I should be conscious that when I took up this job and the other job there would be pressures on me and we are required, in terms of the statute that brought us into existence, to do justice and come in with well reasoned and well thought through judgement in this process of reconciliation. I would have loved, had we had time, that everybody who had an interest in this matter would be present. Since we are also coming to the end of our lifespan, this is not possible and because monies which are made available for us to come here are huge, who would have loved to doubt that, but we do not have a budget in the TRC for the coming year. I do apologise for that, but it would not be reserving our judgement per se, it would be until we get arguments from the applicants, the victims and the Leader of the Evidence. Things being equal, what would have obtained would have been an exchange of the heads of argument. That is apparently not going to be possible but we would attempt to say that we would rather invite heads of argument and upon reading those heads and we want further clarification or points that come to our mind at that juncture to speedily advise the legal representatives of further submissions and I propose to give the legal representatives, both for the applicants and the victims, I could say, sufficient time and I would, under those circumstances, say every legal representative involved in this matter, I should or my Committee should get those heads by the 8th January. I think I have bent backwards to be fair to everybody in this regard. I know there's a lot to go through and should and I think this should be equitable as well and I would advise Mr Mapoma to phone Cape Town as soon as we adjourn that when these tapes get to Cape Town on Monday they must make the transcript available immediately. Joe, would you be of assistance too? I know you carry weight. As I say you will make greater weight to you and Mapoma if that would happen.

I must say it brings us to the conclusion of the applications of Mr Antonie Jagga and three others and we reserve our judgement in this respect and upon receipt of heads of argument we shall endeavour and it will be a possibility that we give judgement before I assume my full time duties on the 29th January at the Transvaal Provisional Division of the High Court that such decision or judgement will be out by then.

I must thank firstly the legal representatives. I know at times the issues - I know at times this was an emotive matter and I have been lax, I must say, in allowing certain things to happen or certain questions to be asked. That is not the normal way of things done but this is a process which is unique in itself. Actually the first in the world and it bordered around enquiry more than anything even though at the end of the day we would give judgement. People must not labour under the illusion that this is what obtains in court. Definitely not, I would have been more robust even to everybody and probably kick a few people but I said I would not. I should appear as a human being because people perceive us a judges, to be something else. Somebody said he wanted to see me the next day, what I look like. I remained John Motata throughout. But if I do other duties it's not the same.

I must thank you in the manner in which everybody conducted himself. We as lawyers know we are friends even if we fight bitterly in court. We remain friends, we fight about what is before us. I thank you for the spirit in which you did. I thank you that lots of things wouldn't have been clear to us had it not been for your assistance. I must thank you profusely for that and in anticipation of the detailed heads of argument which I still have to read, I thank you in advance.

I must thank the victims. Even though you came here thinking that you would know what happened to your beloved ones, unfortunately and this is my understanding of the evidence I have heard over thirteen days - am I right?

MR MAPOMA: Thirteen days.

CHAIRPERSON: I've heard over thirteen days that we don't know, you don't know, we don't know what happened to Ms Betty Boom, Ms Nomasonto Mashiya, Mr Tax Sejanamane, Mr Mbulelo Ngono. I know that when this statute or piece of legislation was brought about it raised people's expectations but also you must bear in mind that the applications before us are not for murder or anything of that nature, it's merely abduction and when my judgement comes out, it will speak about abduction. Whether I have been satisfied, that is people have been abducted and if I am I would definitely give them amnesty in that respect. If I'm not, I will not give amnesty for abduction. The question of their disappearance to date is not what brought us here or made us listen for thirteen days, it is not that and I must emphasise that we don't deal with suspicions in our judgements. There may be suspicions but we deal with facts presented before us and not leaving out the questions of inferences that may be drawn. We may do that but we must have reasons for doing so. We will do that.

I say I thank you that some faces are very familiar because I saw them from the first day we started with this matter. Even when we went to Bloemfontein, I still saw those faces. We thank you for having had the confidence in this process and coming to this process. That is encouraging, that is what the Act of Reconciliation is all about, that we would speak of the past. But if we speak, we will get to grips with what obtained in the past. It's unfortunate that we have no power over the process that brought us about, that it's unfortunate that we have to deal with matters over thirty years in such a short period of time. It's unfortunate but we have no control over that, we are controlled by parliament in this respect. But I must once more say we thank you very much. I must also thank those I had caused to be subpoenaed to come before me. Mr Nthunya, Major Buthelezi, Mr Mokhele and those called by the legal representatives, Ms Mabece. I mentioned your name and the legal representatives wanted you.

We thank you all for having come before us and taken time off from your busy schedules.

I must thank people who are working hard and in the background and they have been so placed that we don't even see them. The interpreters, they are doing a great job over there. You would hear me from time to time say let's adjourn, let them catch their breath. They have concentration as we do have as a panel here. I thank you very much and I haven't heard a complaint from you. Please, even hereafter, I may want you in my court because I'm accustomed to you and take the process of the courts forward. Thank you very much.

Joe, I always thank you as the last person. Thank you very much. Even at short notice you'd get a venue for us. You got a venue in Bloemfontein at very short notice. You got this venue at very short notice and you have never moaned about it. I must thank you very much.

Molly, we thank you. You just came out of hospital and because duty called you came here.

Zuko, in this matter I must apologise, it was the call of duty. I had to sit on your neck. It was not that I didn't like you, I love you. Take it that we wanted to do a job and it had to be done, thank you very much.

I must thank everybody and say most of you would probably see me sitting here for the last time but if you are litigating you will see me in the high court.

Mr Visser, I hope to see you when we are back home. I want to see you in our court.

MR VISSER: Well, we'll have to talk to some attorneys about that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll talk to Mr Wagener about that. He took you out of your practice, he'll take you back to your practice.

And thank you and everybody and have a blessed Christmas and let's all get the wishes that come with Christmas and that we all see the New Year and have the New Year working according to our wishes. Thank you very much.

We adjourn and everybody will get and in respect of the victims you will get in touch with Mr Koopedi who would get our judgement and please don't ask him before the 22nd about the judgement, please. You can from the 22nd January 2001 ask him about the judgement.

The applicants, obviously Mr Wagener knows his job, he has been with us such a long time. Thank you very much Mr Wagener, I must thank you really. You know, like when you come to hearings you almost know who would be there, we've lived together for such a long time. The hard times I've given you were not that I was nasty to you, we had to do a job. Thank you very much and let's all go well.

HEARING ADJOURNS