Amnesty Hearings

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, Mr Mathebe, Kgoshi Mathebe is seated here ready to be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

PIET MOHLAMME MATHEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mathebe, we have an application here on page 29 of the bundle of documents. Would this be your application form?

MR MATHEBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: And at the back of this application, there is a signature which is on page 34, would that be your signature?

MR MATHEBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard the evidence given by your co-applicant, Mr Jerome Maake and would you confirm the contents of his evidence in as far as it affects you, particularly you know, in terms of him having trained you?

MR MATHEBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee where and when did you join up with the MK structures?

MR MATHEBE: I joined the ANC in 1987 in South Africa. I was trained internally by Jerome Maake. After the training, I was in the command structure of the same unit. I was involved in all those operations that he has mentioned. I was also involved when we planned them and when we took decisions and in other operations, I was personally involved, like it Tsantsabela in the one and the police station. From there, at the end of 1987 I went to Botswana via Zimbabwe and to Zambia. From Zambia I went to Angola for further training and then from Angola, I came back in 1980. At the beginning of that year, I was infiltrated into the country and then I was in the unit of Ntjabeleng, where I was the Commander of that unit.

MR KOOPEDI: Regard being had to the lengthy evidence been given by your co-applicant, Mr Maake and the brief evidence you've just given, would you say that you have told the whole truth, in as far as these operations are concerned?

MR MATHEBE: The way I know all these operations in our unit, he has disclosed all the facts about them.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any personal gain out of your involvement with these units and the operations? Did you receive anything at all?

MR MATHEBE: No, I did not.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the political objective, what would you tell this Honourable Committee would have been the political objective of your operations? What did you hope to get politically?

MR MATHEBE: Our aims were to help the people of South Africa who were harassed by the police at that time, specifically at Mawudse, they were the people who resisted the incorporation into KwaNdebele, so we were there to help them.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence by this applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Mr Engelbrecht, do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mr Mathebe?

MR ENGELBRECHT: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ENGELBRECHT: Mr Mathebe, I believe that you are the same person who made the testimony which is recorded and captured in the compilation from page 29 forward in the compilation, is that correct?

MR MALAN: Sorry, no, it can't be 29. You're referring to page 36.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Thank you, I rephrase Chairperson. Is that correct?

MR MATHEBE: Can you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is, do you confirm, if you take a look at page 36 of the papers through to page 61, this is apparently a transcript of evidence given by yourself before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC during 1996. Mr Engelbrecht just wants to confirm whether that is so.

MR MATHEBE: That is correct.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Now, Sir, are you also the author of the report which is captured in the compilation on page 74, which reads, Report by Chief PM (I think there's a typing error), Mathebe, in connection with the amnesty application of Chakie Mathebe?

MR MATHEBE: That is correct.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, with reference to this documentation I referred to just now, on page 74, paragraph 4, it reads that

"The second operation which was also sanctioned by our structure, was that of Lieut Fourie and his son, at Mothethe."

And then on page 57 of the compilation there is recorded, your testimony which has been transcribed, it's approximately line 15 I believe, which says:

"I would not have the truth about the Fourie incident. I was just a member of the MK, but I did not play a role there."

Could you explain what seems to me to be a conflict in the two statements here, to the Commission please?

MR MATHEBE: The day they were asking me in this document, they were asking me about Mr Fourie and his wife. I didn't know any operation that involved Mr Fourie and his wife.

MR MALAN: Can you just point that to me? Where was the question asked about Fourie and his wife?

MR KOOPEDI: Page 57, Honourable Chairperson, page 57.

MR MALAN: Okay. You're referring to the question by Dr Allie?

MR ENGELBRECHT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Is that your explanation?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is at page 57, line 11, which says, and this is a question that was put by Dr Allie

"I am sure you know the incident of the policeman Fourie and his wife?"

And then the statement there, these allegations,

"But I just wondered if you could enlighten us about some of the things that were happening during that period?

MR MATHEBE: When they were asking me questions that day, they were asking me about Mr Fourie and his wife, that's why i told them that I don't know about that operation. The only operation that I know did not involve Mrs Fourie.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, I might have my reservations about your explanation now because clearly the only - any reference to the Fourie people could only have been to the operation intended to, as has been testified by the first witness today, any police people and evidently from page 74 of the compilation, it is recorded under your handwriting and signature, that you were well familiar with the second operation, sanctioned by your structure. Certainly you couldn't have thought anything else could have been referred to when you wee questioned by Dr Allie. Is that your explanation?

MR MATHEBE: There were many MK operations, so I would not accept an operation that I did not know. If they talked about his wife, there could have been maybe another operation that involved Mrs Fourie. When there were operations that involved the police, they were not publicised because they knew that would boost the morale of the people. It could have happened that there was an operation that involved a Mr Fourie and Mrs Fourie, that I did not know. If they had asked me about the operation that involved Mr Fourie and his son, I would have agreed.

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Engelbrecht. Mr Mathebe, I don't want to specifically assist you or set a trap for you, but I want to remind you that we have to be satisfied that you've made a full disclosure and a truthful disclosure. May I take you back just one page from 57 to 56? And then consider before you answer. About two thirds down the page. You answer to a question of Dr Allie about the involvement of MK, and you specifically state

"The involvement of MK, I would not know because I was not there then. I joined MK later."

You see your whole evidence here and I don't want to nit pick, but I want to give you an opportunity to seriously consider this before you again respond. The whole, what's the word I'm looking for, gist of your evidence was that you joined MK only after all this happened in Mawudse. you were not involved at all. You were a member of the community. You were the good guys, the others were the bad guys. You can read your evidence again, if you haven't done it now, but you denied any involvement in MK, so I'm just pointing it out to you, until later after your external training, you did not mention anything and you're now telling us that you were part of the planning before you went into exile. So, please consider it and then you can respond further to Mr Engelbrecht's question.

MR MATHEBE: I trained outside later, that's when I became a full member of the MK, but I was trained inside by Mr Maake, which was not the MK training. That is one that I received in 1987.

MR MALAN: Mr Mathebe, read your answer on page 56 again. You say you would not know about the involvement of MK, yet you had full knowledge of Mr Maake's involvement and you were part of his unit, with internal training.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, with respect, may we be given some time to read this because the context in which I understand this answer stems from the fact that there has been a long history of the turmoil in the area. There has been a situation in terms of the evidence we have here, where people would be abducted by the supporters of incorporation and he has in this very statement, that is Kgoshi Mathebe, referred to the fact that: "At that stage, I was still a young person and only an elderly chief was taken away." I am not sure whether this question answers the question whether: "Were you involved at this particular time?"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so. It might save some time to take a short adjournment now. We didn't take the tea adjournment so perhaps we can just take it at this stage and you could use that opportunity to just go through that again as you suggested, Mr Koopedi, to just establish what context that statement ...

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, I appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now and if you can let us know as soon as possible when you are ready.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

PIET MOHLAMME MATHEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi, have you had opportunity to read?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, Chairperson, we have, not only I did I read, but the applicant under cross-examination also has read. If I may, we would take this back to page 54, line 12 and perhaps for completeness sake, I will try and read this.

"I tried to explain that in short, that the police and the soldiers had a greater part which they played during the violence at that time."

Now this is the part I like, Chairperson:

"The meeting which I spoke (I believe it should have been about), was called by Kgoshi Mathebe. They threw teargas. It was the police and the soldiers together."

This is after, when people were dispersed at different areas, they began shooting with live bullets. At this stage, Chairperson, there was a person who was the chief and he's the person who had called this meeting which the applicant is talking about. He also explained that actually he was shot at. He goes on on page 55: This applicant was arrested and taken to the Dennilton police station. He gave them a name. He didn't use his real name, he used a nick-name. he was released with the others, the other youth who were released. They even went to his home to look for him.

Now we go to page 56, where, right in the middle, where Dr Allie starts. He says:

"Chief Mathebe, earlier you heard Ephraim Mogale speaking about the ANC and the role of MK and underground structures in the resistance of Mawudse. Could you comment on that? Do you know of any involvement of the ANC or underground structures in that struggle, or it was just the youth and the UDF?"

May I point out, Chairperson, that the hearings, the Human Rights Violations, Mawudse hearings, the evidence was divided in this fashion, that Mr Ephraim Mogale would give evidence relating to a certain period, because this applicant who's chief in the area, was still a very young person when the incidents started and after giving evidence up to a certain stage, this is when this applicant then gave evidence about the things he knows. But I wish to read further the page 56, where Dr Allie asks, that is after the question: The involvement of MK I would not know. Dr Allie asks:

"Sorry, you say you joined MK later?"

He says: "Yes."

Dr Allie asks again:

"What period are you speaking about when you joined MK?"

He says: "1987, Sir."

Now my submission is that the answer which says he did not know about MK, this was purely something that was being referred to to an earlier stage not after 1987 and my submission would be further that if Dr Allie was asking anything pertaining to 1987 onwards, he would have aptly showed that to the applicant, and that is it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage Mr Koopedi, just for my own knowledge, was your client, Mr Mathebe, was he a chief at that stage?

MR KOOPEDI: What stage are we referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: 1987 when he joined.

MR KOOPEDI: No. No, he wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become a chief, Mr Mathebe, or when did ...

MR MATHEBE: In 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Engelbrecht.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ENGELBRECHT: (Cont)

Thank you Chairperson. Sir, you were involved in the events that occurred during 1987, is that correct?

MR MATHEBE: That's correct.

MR ENGELBRECHT: It was also during 1987 that the operation took place in which the Fourie people were killed? It was during 1987, is that correct?

MR MATHEBE: It happened in 1987.

MR ENGELBRECHT: That's correct. It was during September 1987. Now certainly I still do understand your statement on page 56 and 57 to relate also to 1987, because on line 29 on page 56, you answered a question of Dr Allie to say what are they talking about when you are speaking about - when you say you joined MK later and then your answer is 1987. It then goes on

"And after that period 1987, what role did the underground structure of the ANC play?"

proceed, proceed and only the second question after that, the question is asked about Fourie and most definitely it couldn't have related to any other incident than the operation in which Fourie was killed, because there was nothing else happening regarding Mr Fourie and if there was, I would ask you to brief the Commission on what other things did happen with the Fouries of which you did have knowledge of.

MR MATHEBE: I have said this earlier. When Dr Allie asked me questions he asked me about Mr Fourie and his wife. That is why I said I won't commit myself about that because that will be an operation that I don't know, but if they had been specific about the operation that involved Mr Fourie and his son, I would know and I would be able to answer, because I had already joined MK then. When he asked me this question, he asked me the question following the evidence given by Mr Mogale, because Mr Mogale gave evidence about events before 1987. I wouldn't know about those events because I was not yet a member of the MK, I only became a member of the MK in 1987.

MR ENGELBRECHT: I'll reserve my comments for argument, Chairperson. Mr Mathebe, I'd like to ask you about your statement as reflected on page 74 of the compilation. Could you indicate to the Commission all the details pertaining to the operation of Fourie and his son, when was it decided, how was it decided, who proposed it, who commanded it? Everything pertaining to that of which you do have knowledge personally Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Mr Engelbrecht wants to know Mr Mathebe is what your own personal knowledge of the operation is, not what you were told about it, how it went, but what you know personally about the operation.

MR MATHEBE: We planned this operation as command structure. We were not planning the operation for the Fourie family. Our planning involved the spot where the police would meet when they decide to attack the people of Mawudse. Our plans were to go and attack them there at that spot, so it just happened that the Fouries came there at that point when we were there.

MR ENGELBRECHT: So Sir, when was the planning done?

MR MATHEBE: I would not remember when the planning took place before the operation.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Were you a member of the Command structure who decided that this operation should take place?

MR MATHEBE: I was a member of the command structure.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, so certainly you must remember something regarding the planning. Can you tell the Commission about who was present, who made the proposals, how it was decided upon, everything pertaining to that please?

MR MATHEBE: If I remember well, I was present myself. Maake was also present. Chakie was also present and Doctor Mathebe was present as well and Mike. As to who came up with the suggestion, I would really not recall, but I remember that we discussed about that and we reached a consensus in the end.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, can you recall how long in advance of the operation had the decision been made and the planning been done?

MR MATHEBE: I would not remember because this took place a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: After the decision was made, was reconnaissance work carried out at that particular T-junction or was the decision made with you or some of you having full knowledge of the police presence at that T-junction?

MR MATHEBE: We had a reconnaissance unit who would be in charge of identifying targets, so we received information that the police meet at that spot and we decided that because they meet there, that will be the appropriate place where we could attack them. This followed the reconnaissance undertaken by the reconnaissance unit.

MR MALAN: Just to elaborate, who was that reconnaissance unit?

MR MATHEBE: Amongst ourselves, we would choose anybody, one person or two, to go and undertake reconnaissance, but I do not remember specifically who undertook that reconnaissance for that particular operation.

MR MALAN: But it consisted of one - the existing unit, one or two of the people of the existing unit? It's not an outside unit, it's a group within your unit, is that what you're saying?

MR MATHEBE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you recall whether you went out during the reconnaissance?

MR MATHEBE: I did not go.

MR MALAN: You did not go. Thank you Mr Engelbrecht.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, how big is your unit? How many people does it comprise of? Is it the four or five of you or were there more people involved in the unit?

MR MATHEBE: Apart from us, because there was this problem at Mawudse, there were other people who were members of the MK, who would come and be with us for a few days, for example Johnny was not with us all the time, he would come and go at times. Those were the people who would just be sent to come and assist us.

CHAIRPERSON: Correct me if I'm wrong, Chief Mathebe. The unit consisted of the core, the core of the unit if I can call it that, consisted of the four of you who are before the Committee today as applicants, plus Mike.

MR MATHEBE: Not only the four of us including Mike as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the four of you and Mike, and who else were members? Was that the basic unit?

MR MATHEBE: Basically it was the five of us and other people would come and go.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. That's such as Johnny?

MR MATHEBE: That's correct.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, I'm going back to the previous question which you answered, but I'm not satisfied as to learn when, before the operation took place, was the decision made to do the operation because certainly it couldn't be so hard to recall whether it was a day, a week or a month, whatever and the previous witness also suffered to remember, so how come - if you can just explain, when was it and why is it so difficult to recall that Sir? If you can explain why it is difficult to recall when the planning was done?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, may I interrupt, with due respect to the Committee and my learned friend? I think in all fairness the applicant has answered that question and he has said he cannot recall exactly when.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps, if we could put it this way. Was the decision to use that T-junction as a target area, taken within a month of the attack, or don't you know that? Do you know whether it was a question of days before the attack, or months before the attack? Some sort of indication.

MR MATHEBE: It could not have been a long time because after taking that decision, we decided who would be involved in that. It could not be more than a month, although I'm not sure about the time, but it could have been a month.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, it is known to me through the next of kin of the victims, that Lieut Fourie used to liaise with a Chief and other Chiefs Mathebe, are you familiar with that and do you have any knowledge about the relationship that existed between the deceased and those Mathebe people, who used to be the chiefs then?

MR MATHEBE: That is not the truth that Mr Fourie had a relationship with Mr Mathebe. Most of the time when we held meetings, the police would come and attack us with teargas, so there was no way that there could have been a relationship between the Mathebes and the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what I was going to say is, Mr Engelbrecht said that Lieut Fourie used to liaise with a Chief Mathebe. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a relationship. He might, in his capacity as a policeman, have to communicate with the chief on various aspects, I don't know, but do you know whether Lieut Fourie had any, let's use the word contact, not necessarily a relationship or any sort of conspiracy, but any official contact with each other, or don't you know?

MR MATHEBE: What is the truth is that we did not allow people to come and see the Chief, so there was no way that we could allow him to come and see the Chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Chief. At that time, who was the Chief in the area, in 1987?

MR MATHEBE: It was Gibson Klokwe Mathebe, that is my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Engelbrecht.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I wish to use the statement made by the presiding Panel with the previous witness and to ask the witness at present whether he has knowledge whether the ANC did accept responsibility for the Fourie incident and if so, why and if not, why not?

MR MATHEBE: I'm not sure about that.

MR ENGELBRECHT: I have no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ENGELBRECHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Engelbrecht. Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions you would like to ask Chief Mathebe?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thanks Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Chief, just if the - we've heard Mr Maake describing various incidents, the land mine at Kwaggafontein, the attack on Elvis Mishi Mnisi, the attack on the Dennilton police station, the limpet mine that didn't go off, were you personally involved in all of those in the decision-making process?

MR MATHEBE: I took part in making the decisions, At Tsantsabela, I was there in person and the one at the T-junction, I was there in person.

CHAIRPERSON: The one at the - what did you do at the T-junction? Oh you mean, when you say you were there in person, what do you mean? When the decision was made or when the operation was carried out?

MR MATHEBE: I mean I was there physically at Tsantsabela and the Kwaggafontein police station. I have explained before that in other operations I only participated in decision-making, but in this one that concerned Kwaggafontein and Tsantsabela, I was there physically.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at first of all, Tsantsabela?

MR MATHEBE: I didn't do anything, we were just waiting to abduct that man, but unfortunately he ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't shoot or anything?

MR MATHEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And at Kwaggafontein?

MR MATHEBE: I was one of the people who were taking that pot next to the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maake said he didn't know the outcome of that operation. Do you have any knowledge what happened with the pot, whether it blew up or anything like that? Did you hear anything about it afterwards?

MR MATHEBE: The information was suppressed at that time, so we don't know whether it did explode, because that never appeared on newspapers, so we don't know what happened to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions arising, Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: No questions, thank Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Engelbrecht?

MR ENGELBRECHT: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR ENGELBRECHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chief Mathebe, that concludes your testimony. You may stand down now.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. May we call Mr Chakie Mathebe, the next applicant?