ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?
MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. The next witness is General Shoke. He will also affirm.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
SOLLY ZACHARIAH SHOKE: (affirms)
EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
General Shoke, could you tell the Committee what your present position is in the SANDF?
GEN SHOKE: I am Director, Personnel Acquisition.
MR BERGER: Say that slowly this time?
GEN SHOKE: I am Director, Personnel Acquisition.
MR BERGER: You have made an application for amnesty which appears in the bundle from page 21 through to 27 as well as the annexure to that application which runs from page 28 to 29, is that correct?
GEN SHOKE: Positive.
MR BERGER: You also made a statement which is to be found in the bundle from page 30 through to page 36. Can you confirm that?
GEN SHOKE: Yes.
MR BERGER: And finally, you also gave evidence before a Committee of the Amnesty Committee in White River two weeks ago in connection with the landmine campaign and your involvement therein, Operation Hlatshwayo, is that correct?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly.
MR BERGER: You've heard the evidence today of General Nyanda. Do you confirm that evidence or is there anything that you wish to alter?
GEN SHOKE: I confirm it.
MR BERGER: We should just for completeness sake mention that when you gave evidence in White River two weeks ago, you effected certain changes to your statement, the statement which starts at page 30 of the bundle, and I'll just run through those changes again. Some of them are not that relevant to this application, but at page 33 under the heading "C. 1985 - 1990" the second paragraph which reads
"Transvaal was later split into the Transvaal Urban and Transvaal Rural"
You deleted the word "later", am I correct?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly.
MR BERGER: And then also, at the bottom of that page, paragraph 8
"Amongst the activities of the Transvaal Urban region included the planting of landmines along the borders of the former Eastern Transvaal."
Again, you deleted the word "urban"?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly.
MR BERGER: So it's the Transvaal region as a whole. And again, not relevant here but for completeness sake at page 35, the second paragraph, which ends with the words
"based with that information"
you added another sentence to the effect that
"that was not always the case."?
GEN SHOKE: Correct.
MR BERGER: General Shoke, this application that we are concerned with today relates to page 22 of your application in the bundle where you say under paragraph 9(a)(i) for acts, you say attacks on police stations, power stations, administration buildings. As I say, the landmine explosions we've dealt with already. And if we turn to the - you also refer there to an annexed document and the annexed document is page 28 and 29, at the bottom of page 28 you say
"The following are the operations that I was directly involved in"
and you list there the bomb blasts and attacks at the various police stations. In number 5, administration offices, and on page 29 the sub-station blast at Rosslyn and the attempted sabotage at the Watloo Petrol Depot. Can you briefly tell the Committee what was your involvement, what positions were you holding at the time of these attacks and why is it that you take responsibility for these attacks?
GEN SHOKE: First I can say I was a participant. In some actually I was a Commissar, in some I was Commander of the unit.
MR BERGER: All of these units fell under the Transvaal Urban Machinery, is that correct?
GEN SHOKE: Correct.
MR BERGER: A Commander of the unit, that speaks for itself, but Commissar? What was a Commissar responsible for?
GEN SHOKE: A Commissar is responsible to give political guidance in terms of the ANC structures and is also the second-in-command.
CHAIRPERSON: And General, even in those instances where you were the Commissar, were you also on the ground in respect to the carrying out of these operations?
GEN SHOKE: Those that I've listed, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: The ones listed on page 28 here, the six of them? No 29, the eight of them?
GEN SHOKE: Correct.
MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
CHAIRPERSON: Before I ask for any questions, perhaps if I could just get some detail?
Uncle Tom's Administration Offices, are they in Soweto?
GEN SHOKE: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON: And Watloo? Whereabout is Watloo?
GEN SHOKE: Pretoria.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know in which of these incidents that you've listed here, General, these eight incidents, whether persons were injured or killed or only damage to property? Are you in a position to indicate those in which persons were injured or killed, whether there were in fact a gross human rights violation as contemplated by our Act?
GEN SHOKE: I think what I can say is only based on press reports.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
GEN SHOKE: To the best of my recollection, this is Maroka, Orlando and Mabopane.
CHAIRPERSON: And in those incidents, do you know whether people were killed or only injured or both?
GEN SHOKE: It's very difficult for me to say I know or not but according to press reports.
CHAIRPERSON: According to the hearsay information that you have?
GEN SHOKE: It would seem as if people were killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Were killed and injured in those three. And General, these attacks like you talk about bomb blasts at Daveyton, Morako, Orlando, you've just mentioned the names, were they also bomb blasts or limpet mines?
GEN SHOKE: They vary.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
GEN SHOKE: They vary. In Daveyton for example it was a bomb blast.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Daveyton was a bomb blast and then Maroka?
GEN SHOKE: It was an assault.
CHAIRPERSON: With firearms?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON: And Orlando?
GEN SHOKE: It was also a raid.
CHAIRPERSON: With firearms and then Uncle Tom's - sorry Booysens?
GEN SHOKE: It was also a raid.
CHAIRPERSON: And Uncle Tom's?
GEN SHOKE: It was just arson.
CHAIRPERSON: What - how was that done, was it set off by some sort of delayed detonator or did - throw a fireball or malatov cocktail through a window, what sort of thing was it?
GEN SHOKE: We physically destroyed the documents.
CHAIRPERSON: Physically burned documents?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly, during the rent boycott.
CHAIRPERSON: During the rent boycott. Is Uncle Tom's your own name or is it a real name?
GEN SHOKE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Real name? Because I was thinking maybe being an Uncle Tom, it was called Uncle Tom's, not so? It's just coincidental it was called Uncle Toms. Mapobane?
GEN SHOKE: It was also a raid.
CHAIRPERSON: The blast at Rosslyn, is that the limpet mine?
GEN SHOKE: Mini limpet mines.
CHAIRPERSON: And the attempted sabotage at Watloo? What was the attempt there, placing of mines that didn't go off?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you consider all these targets as being legitimate targets?
GEN SHOKE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they within the guidelines referred to General Nyanda in his evidence?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly, but not only General Nyanda, by the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: By the ANC?
GEN SHOKE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Referred to by General Nyanda in his evidence.
And these attacks, these actual attacks where you went in with firearms, what time of the day? Did you take into account the civilian population or people who might be attending at the police stations, that sort of thing? Or when were they conducted?
GEN SHOKE: Yes, we did take that into consideration and they were done at night between 8 and 10 and never carried out over the weekend or from Friday to Sunday when in fact members of the public would be there en masse.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motloung?
JUDGE MOTATA: General Shoke, this Uncle Tom's administration offices, is that when there were temporary offices in the actual hall because there were prior offices which served the area?
GEN SHOKE: Well they were temporary offices after the other offices were destroyed by the community.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motloung?
MR MOTLOUNG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLOUNG
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?
MR WAGENER: No questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. For the record might I just state, Honourable Chairperson, that the matters for which General Shoke has applied, those that are on the roll today are Daveyton, Maroko, Orlanda only. The rest five to eight were not placed on the roll for today and the other incidents, the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bomb and the landmine attack have already been heard.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just repeat that? Daveyton?
MS PATEL: Daveyton, Maroko and Orlando are on the roll for today out of the applications of General Shoke. On page 28 from number 4 to number 8, those aren't on the roll for today.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MS PATEL: The Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bomb, that's number 2, that is listed further down on page 29 and also number 1, the landmine attacks, those have been heard about two weeks ago, I think, or a week ago.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) do you have any questions to ask?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
General, can I just go back to the Daveyton Police Station? Can you tell me exactly what your involvement was in that operation?
GEN SHOKE: I was a participant.
MS PATEL: Alright, what exactly did you do?
GEN SHOKE: We placed in fact a bomb.
MS PATEL: Where was it placed?
GEN SHOKE: Attached to the wall, next to the wall, if I memory still serves me well.
MS PATEL: Sorry Sir, I didn't get that?
GEN SHOKE: If my memory still serves me well, against the wall.
MS PATEL: Okay, it was placed next to the wall and how was it timed to go off, was it timed to go off at a particular time or how was that done?
GEN SHOKE: Yes exactly. I can't remember the time now but it was around eightish if my memory serves me well and it was to go off 30 minutes later.
MS PATEL: Alright and I will confirm that no one was injured in that incident, Honourable Chairperson.
Is there any specific reason why Daveyton, why there was just a bomb planted there as opposed to the raids that were carried out on the other police stations?
GEN SHOKE: I think maybe yes you might have observed our struggle in fact, as our struggle gained momentum. Also the intensity increased. I think you are aware that actually in the '60's they started with the railway lines, buildings, until actually we took our struggle to higher heights when we started in fact physically engaging the Security Forces.
MS PATEL: Alright and the planning that was done for that operation, were you the main person in charge of the planning?
GEN SHOKE: You're talking of Daveyton?
MS PATEL: That's right?
GEN SHOKE: No we were two.
MS PATEL: Alright and who is the other person involved?
GEN SHOKE: Unfortunately he is late.
MS PATEL: He is late?
GEN SHOKE: Yes so I think it serves no purpose, it's Nicky Hhlongwane.
MS PATEL: Hhlongwane, okay fine. Alright and then the Maroko incident, who did the planning for that incident?
GEN SHOKE: I can say in fact it was a combined planning between the internal and external.
MS PATEL: Alright, can you tell us who was involved in the planning?
GEN SHOKE: External in fact like General Nyanda said in fact in his evidence. The Transvaal Urban Machinery was involved.
MS PATEL: Yes?
GEN SHOKE: And then when we came in, okay involving targeting the scene, selecting the target and also trying to help us with gathering information because I think you might be aware that that was one of the first raids ever conducted in South Africa on an establishment and thereafter internally we were to do our own actual planning for a target and reconnaissance.
MS PATEL: Okay, how many people were involved in that incident on the ground?
GEN SHOKE: Four.
MS PATEL: Is it the same cell as was mentioned in the Wonderboompoort Police Station attack, can you tell?
GEN SHOKE: No, no, no, I never mentioned Wonderboom and I was not involved.
MS PATEL: Yes, no that was General Nyanda's information. Was it a different cell that you were involved in?
GEN SHOKE: Yes, I was involved in a different cell, exactly. But I think maybe what I want to bring, to clarify here is that some of the people who might have been involved in Wonderboom were involved with me in Moroka. We started in fact as a small group of four and as the struggle started to intensify, the units also expanded. Those with experience took in new people, so we split into two units.
MS PATEL: Okay?
GEN SHOKE: And the one in fact in Wonderboom was led by the late Hhlongwane and I was with my unit.
MS PATEL: And who were the members of your unit?
GEN SHOKE: It will also vary according to operation by operation.
MS PATEL: Okay, let's talk about the Moroka incident?
GEN SHOKE: Moroka it was Nicky Sangele.
MS PATEL: Yes?
GEN SHOKE: Myself.
MS PATEL: Yes?
GEN SHOKE: Tegema Parani.
MS PATEL: Yes?
GEN SHOKE: And Marcus Machau.
MS PATEL: Machau. Alright. What was decided at the planning at that raid, was it initially decided that only the building would be damaged or was it foreseen that people would be injured in this raid? Was that part of the planning?
GEN SHOKE: Most unfortunately, actually, where now it was a physical attack on the police. As you could remember quite well, it happened shortly after the execution of Solomon Mashlangu.
MS PATEL: Okay?
GEN SHOKE: And even the pamphlets that were left behind actually, we did indicate that we also now avenge for the death of Solomon Mashlangu.
MS PATEL: Okay.
GEN SHOKE: I don't think I need to repeat what was known to you or to everybody in South Africa that by that time that when our people were ...(intervention)
MS PATEL: No, it's not necessary to go into all of that, General, I can assure you. That's just one curious thing that has come out in the evidence about this Moroka incident. There were reports about a certain Johannes Ramagaga who is supposed to be an ex-policeman who I think was dishonourably discharged from the police and was then later said to be involved in this incident. Do you know anything about this?
GEN SHOKE: I can say I don't know Ramagaga and if there's anything the police must take him out and they must clearly indicate why actually they said they linked him to Moroka.
MS PATEL: Then just finally on this incident, what exactly did you do at the scene, what was your physical participation at the scene?
GEN SHOKE: I think as soldiers or as guerillas we worked as a team. We attacked the police station.
MS PATEL: What exactly did you do. I appreciate it's a long time ago but can you recall exactly what it is that you did?
GEN SHOKE: You're asking me quite a difficult question. A raid is a raid. Everybody in fact in a raid is got his sector that he's got to take care of.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you actually enter into the building of the police station or did you stand outside at the perimeter and fire towards the building?
GEN SHOKE: We went into the police station. I actually in fact was the one who firstly approached the scene to ensure that in fact I opened a passage for the rest to enter the scene and I maintained security at the gate after I ...(indistinct) the guards.
MS PATEL: If I can just move on then to the Orlando Police Station attack which occurred in the same year? Who did the planning for that attack?
GEN SHOKE: We did it.
MS PATEL: Is it the same group as for the Maroko attack?
GEN SHOKE: With the exception of Msiswe.
MS PATEL: The exception of who, sorry?
GEN SHOKE: Msiswe - Nicky Hhlongwane.
MS PATEL: Hhlongwane, okay.
GEN SHOKE: And the inclusion of the third applicant.
MS PATEL: Okay. And then once again you were physically present at the police station?
GEN SHOKE: That is correct.
MS PATEL: Can you tell us what you did exactly?
GEN SHOKE: I was part of the team in fact, the assault team.
MS PATEL: Yes?
GEN SHOKE: That's my part.
MS PATEL: You didn't shoot anybody, you didn't injure anybody?
GEN SHOKE: I think it's very difficult to tell. Once you shoot in fact in the battlefield you cannot say this one I've shot, this one I've missed and so forth. But yes, I fired some shots. As part of the assault team I fired some shots.
MS PATEL: Okay.
GEN SHOKE: I think maybe what needs to be clarified here, it was not a hunting expedition, it was really an assault so it's difficult to say what you shot like in a hunting expedition.
MS PATEL: Alright, can you tell, do you have any idea Mr Rasegatla who was involved in that incident as well, besides his involvement in the planning, can you tell us what else he did as regards this incident? What was his further involvement?
GEN SHOKE: He was also a part of the assault team as myself and I think ...(indistinct)
MS PATEL: Sorry, Sir, the last word, what did you say?
GEN SHOKE: And the late Marcus Matoung.
MS PATEL: Okay, then just for your information you know that in that incident that at least two people were killed and several injured?
GEN SHOKE: That's quite possible.
MS PATEL: And that they were both policemen, those who died, were policemen? Can I just ask, you say that these attacks were carried out at a time when you expected or when you least expected there to be members of the public at the police station, that is why raids were not carried out over the weekend?
GEN SHOKE: Exactly.
MS PATEL: Okay, were there any specific instructions that were given in respect of persons who were present at the police station who were clearly not police persons or was that accepted as part of the casualties that you were willing to accept?
GEN SHOKE: I think that's an unfortunate - this thing, there's no way in fact when you enter the vicinity of a target that you now separate or that you'll ask people as well are you a policeman or a civilian, but where really you see you can clearly identify in fact that this person is a civilian and is unarmed, you obviously you avoid it, like we did in Maroko. There was a lady that was deliberately avoided who was sitting at the gate.
MS PATEL: Yes, I confirm that information, Honourable Chairperson, she was sitting with the guard at the entrance I believe.
Did you report back to anybody after these incidents or was there no need to, what was the system?
GEN SHOKE: Yes, we used to send reports to the ANC.
MS PATEL: Was there anybody specific that you reported to?
GEN SHOKE: We used communication by means of dead letter box - DLB's.
MS PATEL: DLB's, okay.
GEN SHOKE: Because as you aware that actually our presence by then was not supposed to be known.
MS PATEL: Alright and who specifically was the communication addressed to?
GEN SHOKE: I think maybe General Nyanda could tell you better but the communication was addressed actually to the Transvaal Machinery outside, unless who will decipher that, or it was not my business really.
MS PATEL: Alright. Okay. Honourable Chairperson, if you will just grant me a moment? Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Berger, do you have any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Just very briefly, Chairperson.
General Shoke, the attack on the Mapobane Police Station. When was that?
GEN SHOKE: I think it was 1991/1992 I cannot remember quite well.
MR BERGER: Chairperson, I only have a comment remaining and that's in relation to what Ms Patel said about this hearing only dealing with Daveyton, Maroko and Orlando and that is that we're aware of the problems that Ms Patel had with notifying victims, but what we subsequently were told was that an advert was placed in relation to all of the operations in which the applicant and in particular General Shoke seeks amnesty today. And so we came to this hearing ready to deal with all of these incidents and it's going to be unfortunate if General Shoke and maybe General Nyanda have to come back again and repeat for - well in some cases a third time and other cases even more than that, the same evidence again. Particularly in those cases where there was no one killed or seriously injured. Strictly speaking, those applications could have been dealt with in chambers and I don't see why they can't be dealt with now.
CHAIRPERSON: I think on this aspect and subject to what I may hear from others, I think one must take a reasonably practical approach. You know, notices have been given out. Okay, the time might not have been as long as one would have wanted but we could perhaps hear all the evidence and if there is any reaction to any of the notices from any of the victims, we can deal with that as it comes and because there might be any reaction whatsoever in which event to come back just for the sake of coming back would be not only costly but also probably just a waste of time. But if there is reaction and some serious opposition then we can confront it and communicate with all the persons concerned and then take it as it comes. I think that that would probably be the best way to deal with it.
MR BERGER: We would be very happy with that kind of arrangement, yes. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
JUDGE MOTATA: Could we at first hear Mr Motloung because he has mentioned that he represents about 9 victims and if he can identify the incidents mentioned by Ms Patel, it would take us further?
MR MOTLOUNG: Thank you, through you Mr Chairperson.
The list is as follows:
The first victim that I have consulted with is Mr Risimate Joseph Mgwanamya. He was injured in the 1981 Wonderboompoort incident.
The second one is Mr Samuel Nkosi who appears actually on behalf of his late father and it's worth mentioning that his late father did not die from the incident itself but died subsequently due to other causes but the incident relates to the 1979 Maroko Police Station incident.
The third one is Mr Sipho Zungu, he's a civilian that got injured when he went to report the case at the Orlando Police Station in 1979.
The fourth victim is Lena Msimango. She is a civilian who worked at the fast food outlet adjoining the Tshabalala Dry Cleaners. She was injured, that was in the incident in 1984.
The fifth victim is Mr Simon Ndawonde who was a trainee constable, student police officer.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just repeat that name please?
MR MOTLOUNG: I'm sorry. Simon Ndawonde, a trainee Constable at the Kladi Training College in Soweto. I was even asked to set the record straight that according to documents presented to us, this incident is said to have been during 1988. I'm told it actually happened on the 21st April 1987.
The sixth victim is Cyprian Khumalo, also a student at the same Kladi Training College, Soweto. Same dates.
The seventh one is Edward Moremi, a constable then at the Maroko Police Station in the 1979 incident. He got seriously injured during that attack.
The eighth victim is Peter Ngobeni, also a trainee constable at the Kladi Training College in 1987. Same dates earlier on referred to.
And the last victim is Christopher Matibula, also a trainee constable at the Kladi Training College. Same date. He was also injured, just like Peter Ngobeni.
And just to put the whole thing in context, Mr Chairperson, I was actually asked to be on standby in case victims needed legal representation and these nine that I've referred to are the ones that I have been able to consult with and I therefore would confidently state that I have instructions from these nine. That's all.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motloung. Mr Berger, have you finished your re-examination?
MR BERGER: I have, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: May I just ask my colleagues if they have any questions to put to General Shoke? Judge Motata, any questions?
JUDGE MOTATA: I've got none Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?
MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, General, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
